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Welcome to the new Manager 
podcast. 

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I'm your host, Kim Nickel. 
Hello and welcome. 

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I'm glad you're here and I hope 
you're doing well. 

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Today's episode is on how to 
lead A-Team through hard times, 

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and this episode is by request. 
In case you didn't know, you can

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request episode topics, just 
write to me. 

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You can either find me on 
LinkedIn and message me there 

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with your requested podcast 
topic, or go to my website, 

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kimnickel.com and message me 
through the contact page there. 

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Let me know what you'd like some
guidance on and I can speak to 

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it here on the show. 
So today someone had written in 

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to me and asked how to support a
team that is reeling from 

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layoffs and dealing with 
emotions like anger, confusion, 

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and maybe even some survivor's 
guilt. 

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For context, this person shared 
that very recently nearly half 

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of the team had been laid off, 
including their manager. 

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So now this person has had to 
step into the manager role kind 

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of unofficially because their 
manager was let go. 

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They're now dealing with all of 
these emotions and they don't 

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have a lot of confidence in the 
upper leadership because the 

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workload hasn't changed. 
They haven't said, OK, we're 

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letting go of people and now 
we'll have to rebalance or 

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readjust the work. 
It's the situation where there 

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are less people and now the 
workload is the same. 

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So you'll have to adapt to that.
People are in survival mode. 

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There's a feeling of loss in 
this situation and they were 

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asking for my perspective. 
So that's what I wanted to share

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today. 
That can be such a hard 

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situation and here's where I 
would start. 

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So first is that when you're a 
person who cares a lot, then 

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you'll also take on and it'll be
really hard to see how much your

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colleagues are struggling with 
all of the emotions, with the 

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anger or the confusion. 
Sometimes there's even a feeling

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of betrayal when the, you know, 
the organization goes through 

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such a big change, there can be 
a feeling of betrayal like, you 

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know, we trusted leadership to 
take care of the business so 

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that this shouldn't be 
happening. 

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Like there's this feeling of, 
you know, when people are laid 

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off, it's, it's from this place 
of it's, it wasn't their fault. 

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They didn't do anything wrong. 
That's not why people get laid 

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off. 
So there can be that feeling of 

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betrayal or just, you know, 
incorporated in with this 

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sadness and with all of the 
emotions. 

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And so the first thing I want to
acknowledge is that emotions are

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not a problem to be solved. 
And this can be hard if you are 

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a person who measures your 
success based on the happiness 

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and contentment of the people 
around you. 

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For so many of us, we don't even
realize that that's one of the 

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ways we feel successful. 
But it can be very present and 

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then highlighted when you're in 
a situation that was not 

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something that you had control 
over, but something that 

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happened. 
And when you are now leading 

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A-Team who is having all of this
emotion and wondering, Oh my 

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gosh, like, what do I do in the 
face of all of this? 

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Like how do I fix this or how do
I make things better? 

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So I wanted to acknowledge that 
if you're a person who cares 

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very deeply about the well-being
of others, and if you tend to 

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measure your success based on 
the contentment and happiness of

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the people around you, this is 
also going to be very 

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challenging and tricky for you 
to navigate. 

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The more you can become aware of
how you operate and how you kind

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of navigate the world, the 
easier it will be to address 

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this kind of situation because 
the goal is not to make everyone

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happy or to make everyone feel 
like, you know what, it wasn't, 

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it's not that big a deal, Like 
we'll be fine. 

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That can actually be very 
callous and very like not trust 

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building because the emotion 
that people feel can be a very 

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reasonable and very appropriate 
response to what's happening. 

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I think of it a little bit as 
you want to be able to make 

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space for the emotions. 
And I'll talk more a bit about 

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what I mean by that. 
But we make space for the 

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emotions without trying to 
change them or solve them. 

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And then in our role as a 
manager of, of a team that's 

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going through that, one of the 
most supportive or kind of 

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powerful things that you can do 
is think of yourself as how can 

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I, how can I help to direct or 
focus or guide people's 

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attention? 
So that now given this change, 

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number one, people will be kind 
of oriented towards working on 

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the right thing and 
understanding how do we navigate

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this new landscape. 
So the emotions need some space 

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and then our attention needs 
some focus. 

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And those are two things that 
you can bring into that 

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relationship of working with 
your team. 

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So let's talk a little bit more 
about what that all looks like 

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in practice and how you can 
think about it for yourself. 

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So first is this step of 
acknowledging or accepting when 

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we're dealing with something 
really big, really unexpected, 

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really painful, really enraging,
we can simply start by 

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acknowledging, by accepting, by 
acknowledging, OK, so this is 

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what's happening now. 
By accepting, there's probably 

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going to be a lot of emotion 
here. 

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We're not getting into the story
of it. 

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We're not, you know, trying to 
change it or explain it. 

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We're simply naming what is 
happening. 

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We're acknowledging what's 
happening. 

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When we're able to name a thing,
it allows us to stop resisting 

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it. 
And resistance sounds like, I 

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wish this hadn't happened. 
Why did this happen? 

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Like it helps us to get out of 
the rumination trying to 

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understand why did this happen? 
This shouldn't have happened. 

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If if they had done things 
differently, would things have 

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gone differently? 
It helps to get us out of that 

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mind spin and into more of this 
place that can be a little bit 

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more tender. 
The acknowledgement of, yeah, 

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this, this hurts or this is 
confusing or this is frustrating

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or this is not what we wanted. 
That feeling of oh, like this 

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feels even even the 
acknowledgement of it feels so 

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powerless that this is happening
and nobody asked us and yet we 

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have to deal with this. 
This feels unfair. 

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This feels unkind. 
Acknowledging the emotion is 

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sometimes the most valuable 
part. 

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We don't have to solve it. 
We don't have to change it. 

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But simply naming it and 
acknowledging it and saying, 

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yeah, it totally makes sense, 
all of those different emotions.

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Yeah, I can. 
I can absolutely see why, why 

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that all might be there and even
the survivor's guilt. 

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So when you lose colleagues to a
layoff, you might feel really 

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bad that they got laid off. 
And there might be a part of you

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that feels relieved that you 
still have your job. 

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And that can also feel really 
hard if someone is going through

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something difficult and you're 
feeling like, Oh my gosh, I'm 

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glad it wasn't me. 
But now I feel so bad. 

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So even just acknowledging there
might be a lot of emotions. 

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That totally makes sense. 
And then in your role as the 

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leader of, you know, of the team
or the, your role as the kind of

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de facto manager. 
Now, how can you help shape what

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this means? 
So something I like to remind my

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clients, and I'll remind you 
now, is that information and 

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data is not meaning information 
and data requires us to give it 

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meaning, to help convey or to 
interpret. 

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What does this mean? 
And I sometimes think of this in

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in kind of a very simple way, 
like if you've ever spent time 

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with a little kid and when the 
kid, you know, falls or maybe 

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there's a really loud sound and 
they look to the trusted adult 

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to find out, how should I be 
feeling about this right now? 

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Should I be upset about this? 
Is this a big deal? 

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I'm not really sure. 
This thing just happened. 

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I'm not sure how I should 
respond. 

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And so they look to the trusted 
adult and then take their cues 

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from that. 
And it's kind of the same like 

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as humans, we, we kind of 
triangulate meaning especially 

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when we're in a kind of 
collective relationship, when 

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something happens, we often want
to talk with someone about it to

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help us understand how should I 
be feeling about this? 

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You know, like, what does this, 
what does this mean? 

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And really for all of us on the 
inside, we're always wondering, 

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what does this mean for me? 
What does this mean for me, for 

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the work that I'll be doing for 
my day-to-day? 

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Like, I don't know what to do 
with this. 

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What does this mean? 
And so when you anticipate that 

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people will be wondering, OK, so
we've had this layoff and now 

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we're at half staff compared to 
how many people we had before, 

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what does this mean? 
And they will look to you, they 

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will look to each other, they 
will look to someone to help 

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understand and make sense what 
is the meaning? 

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What happens now? 
And so begin to think, what can 

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you do to help them understand 
what the meaning will be? 

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And you might not have all the 
information, things might not be

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completely clear, but even if 
you can say, OK, so this is what

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happened and for now, this is 
what it means for us. 

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Or in the near term, for the 
next 10 days, here's what that 

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means. 
If you can help to give that 

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perspective and meaning, that 
will help to ground people, to 

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give people a sense of 
direction, to bring some 

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clarity, especially around 
things like, you know, 

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relationships and 
communications. 

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When people leave and they 
hadn't planned on it, there will

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be lots of questions about the 
work hand off the relationship 

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transitions. 
So even if you can start to 

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create some focus and clarity 
around, OK, so now that these 

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people have left, here's what 
that means in terms of how we're

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going to transition those 
relationships, or here's what 

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this means in terms of getting a
sense of where all the different

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projects are. 
That can be a very simple but 

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helpful thing because it helps 
to provide guidance through the 

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internal feeling of chaos, which
is things are out of control. 

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I don't know what's going on 
when you're able to say this is 

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what this means right now. 
You know, even if it's like this

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is what this means, what this 
means is we've got a lot of 

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uncertainty over here. 
And so here is what we're going 

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to be doing in order to re 
evaluate what priorities are and

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how the work is gonna happen. 
And also, if you've ever heard 

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me talk about strategic failure,
I'll see if I can find the 

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episode of of that. 
But strategic failure is where 

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you intentionally decide this is
not going to happen. 

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And here's why. 
It's because this other priority

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thing needs to happen. 
Instead. 

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You can plan for failure and you
do that strategically as opposed

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to by accident or by reaction. 
And then when you plan it, you 

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can also plan the communications
around it. 

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So it becomes something that you
do have more control over, 

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right? 
Like we're intending that this 

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is not going to work and these 
are the reasons why. 

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And like now we're going 
forward. 

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So think about that as well. 
This idea of what this means 

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might include these things are 
now not going to happen. 

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We are going to fail here, but 
it's OK because we know exactly 

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why. 
And here are the things that 

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will matter instead, or here are
the priorities. 

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Now, this is this is what this 
change means for our priorities.

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Related to that is, as the 
manager who's thrust into this 

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role for your team, can you get 
a picture of the new landscape? 

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This might be including, you 
know, creating a tool or some 

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kind of place to help organize 
what the landscape is. 

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I'm envisioning, you know, like 
a grid. 

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You know, if you can make some 
kind of organizing grid or some 

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people use different tools to 
organize projects, whatever is 

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kind of your equivalent of let's
put everything on a on a 

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whiteboard, you know, sticky 
notes on a whiteboard. 

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So we can start to organize and 
get a visual map where we can 

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see what is happening and when 
and who needs to be attached to 

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what. 
Like we need to get a new 

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picture of the landscape because
the landscape has now changed. 

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That now helps to also reduce 
that feeling of chaos and 

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reactivity and gives us a little
bit more sense of direction. 

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I'm thinking too, you know, I 
live in California and we have 

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earthquakes here. 
And when I was in high school 

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many, many years ago, there was 
this huge earthquake. 

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It was the Loma Prieta 
earthquake. 

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And there was quite a lot of 
destruction in town. 

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And, you know, as a result of 
this earthquake. 

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And when things are in chaos and
shaken up and everyone's like, 

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what the heck just happened like
that? 

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What was that was not what we 
expected. 

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It's kind of the same thing like
the first, the first step is, 

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you know, like, are you, are you
OK? 

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OK, things are super intense. 
We now need to get a sense of 

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the landscape. 
We need to, you know, to take a 

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look at what, what are we 
actually dealing with now? 

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Things have changed. 
The sooner we can get a picture 

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of that, the sooner we can begin
to approach it in a way that 

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will be mindful and grounded and
intentional. 

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One of the big questions will be
around communication. 

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Who needs to be communicated to 
about this change and what they 

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can expect in terms of, you 
know, who's who's now managing 

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this relationship? 
Who should they reach out to 

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instead? 
What kind of response time frame

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should they expect? 
It might be something as simple 

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as creating an auto responder 
for the folks who were let go. 

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And the e-mail that goes out 
says it doesn't, you know, this 

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person is no longer here. 
Please give us time before, you 

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know, we're able to figure out 
who's going to respond next or 

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have an e-mail that says, you 
know, point to this person 

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instead. 
But have some way to capture 

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those relationships and do it in
a procedural kind of operations 

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Y way, because that will then 
just create a little bit more 

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containment and structure around
it. 

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And then the next is to come 
back to appreciation. 

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And appreciation is good on a 
couple of levels. 

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One is that it helps us to see 
the best in each other even when

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facing hard times. 
Appreciation can be as simple 

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as, I know this is a really hard
time that we're going through. 

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And I really appreciate what you
bring to the team, or I really 

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appreciate the way I see you 
helping. 

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I really appreciate the patience
that you've been having. 

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Or I really appreciate your 
openness and honesty. 

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I'm glad that you came to me 
directly and told me how you 

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were feeling. 
Thank you for that. 

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Appreciation is a way of 
acknowledging someone both for 

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their strengths, for their 
honesty and the to the extent 

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that we can bring attention back
to those qualities, that will 

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also help us when we move 
through fear and change. 

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One of the things that in my own
career I've liked to keep in my 

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mind when I'm managing and 
working with people, even if 

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it's not a formal manager 
relationship, is thinking of 

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this, thought of we work well 
together, we're here to do good 

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work together, we can make this 
good. 

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This is hard, but we've done 
hard things before. 

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It's hard, but we are humans and
we are resilient. 

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Having some kind of intentional,
it's almost like an intentional 

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background thought. 
It will inform then the way that

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you communicate and it will help
others to begin to see things 

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too. 
That sense of, you know, we 

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value getting things right. 
We do our best even under 

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challenging circumstances. 
There's a lot of things we're 

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not in control of, but as long 
as we're here, we're going to do

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what we can to make this good. 
It might not be how we would 

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like it to be ideally, but 
that's the situation we're 

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dealing with, and we're going to
do our utmost to get through 

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this. 
That kind of appreciation can 

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help us both with the emotions 
and with the focus. 

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You know, it's hard being a 
human, and when we deal with 

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these situations at work, that's
when the best part of being a 

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human comes out. 
You know, the tenderness, the 

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emotion, the caring, the how do 
we deal with challenge, all of 

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that is part of it. 
And from the perspective of 

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being a manager, I really see 
this as right. 

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This is This is why we need 
those skills of working with 

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emotions, managing and directing
attention, thinking in terms of 

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different timelines and the 
landscape. 

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When you have the vision, then 
part of that job is to help 

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invite people to it so that they
can also reorient and feel 

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connected and know what to focus
on and when. 

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And then for yourself, as the 
manager, you want to also give 

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yourself space to feel and have 
your emotions. 

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Often when people are looking to
you for guidance through a tough

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time, it can feel like a lot of 
pressure. 

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You want to give yourself the 
grace to also be a human and to 

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call in whatever support you 
also will need in order to get 

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through this in a sustainable 
way. 

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We don't want you to, you know, 
get burned out or to feel like 

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you have to absorb or mask. 
For the people that are looking 

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to you, so whatever support you 
can call in for your mental 

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health, for your emotional 
health, for your physical 

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health, make sure that you feel 
invited and willing to do that. 

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Just because you are the leader 
and it can be a very isolating 

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role at times, it doesn't mean 
that you are alone or that you 

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are supposed to do things alone.
It's actually really important 

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that you also tap into and 
receive support from others. 

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And if those people are not 
available to you at work, then 

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have a counselor, a therapist, a
coach, a thought partner. 

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You know, good friends and 
family are also great, but 

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sometimes it's hard because you 
know, they they have their own 

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opinions. 
And one of the things that can 

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00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,840
be so helpful is to have a space
that is just designed for you to

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come in and say, OK, this is 
what's heavy on my heart. 

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This is what's taking up my 
mental space. 

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And I'm having a hard time, you 
know, kind of dealing with this 

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and receiving support. 
Coaches are great for that. 

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Counselors and therapists are 
great for that. 

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And also just being outside and 
being with nature or spending 

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time with pets. 
Pets are great because they're 

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so loving and supportive. 
And they don't have, they're not

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00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,720
giving you any advice. 
There's no, there's, it's all, 

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it's all unconditional love from
our pets. 

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So that is what I wanted to 
leave with you. 

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You know, managing people is not
always an easy thing to do. 

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And when you find yourself in a 
situation where the team is 

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hurting and going through a hard
time, that really calls us to 

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00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,720
rise into perhaps a role that 
you hadn't anticipated and maybe

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00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,240
not even wanted. 
But there are ways to approach 

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00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:18,320
it that can be effective and 
helpful, not just for you, but 

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00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,760
for the team that you want to 
support as well. 

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So thank you so much for 
listening. 

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00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,800
If you want to work with me 
one-on-one, have one-on-one 

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00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,600
support, then book some time for
us to talk. 

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00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,240
Go into the show notes and book 
a consult with me. 

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00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,040
If you want to know about my 
upcoming group program and how 

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00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,040
to work in more of a collective 
space, then get on the mailing 

340
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,680
list. 
You'll find a link for that in 

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00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,600
the show notes as well. 
All right, have a really great 

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00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:51,840
week and I will talk to you next
time. 

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00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,080
When you're more effective at 
work, you're happier in your 

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00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,320
life. 
And when you're happier in your 

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00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,400
life, you're more effective at 
work. 

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00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,560
I can help. 
Go to my website, kimnickel.com 

347
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,880
and sign up for a coaching 
consult. 

348
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:11,680
It can get better.