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Welcome to the New Manager 
Podcast. 

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I'm your host, Kim Nichol. 
Hello and welcome. 

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I'm glad you're here and I hope 
you're doing well. 

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One thing I've been thinking a 
lot about is how you learn and 

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how to make learning feel 
natural, so that you're more 

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likely to then apply new ideas 
and new concepts into your 

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actual life and your workplace. 
And it occurred to me that I 

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think one of the reasons why my 
approach has been so effective 

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with my clients and my students 
is because my perspective is 

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really grounded in the earliest 
teaching that I was doing years 

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ago in a studio, 10 to 12 years 
ago, I started teaching this 

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functional fitness class. 
And it was no equipment. 

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It was just body weight. 
And So what I was teaching was 

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helping people learn how to move
more effectively in their 

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physical bodies and creating a 
little bit more of this internal

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awareness of, you know, like, 
like how how it feels to be in 

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your body so you could sense 
where your weight was, were you 

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balanced. 
So you could really work with 

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your different muscles as you 
were going through these 

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movements in a way that started 
to let it feel easy for you. 

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And because of teaching these 
public classes. 

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And so I would have lots of 
different people come to class 

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with lots of different bodies. 
So sometimes at the beginning of

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class someone would tell me, oh,
I'm recovering from an injury or

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I, you know, I had surgery three
months ago and my range of 

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motion is still really limited. 
Or somebody might come in and 

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say been training for a 
marathon. 

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And so this part of my body is 
really strong, but this other 

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part of my body maybe not so 
much. 

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And I had people of different 
ages and different genders and, 

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you know, kind of different 
different stages of their 

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relationship to their physical 
body, their physical health. 

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So I had to learn how do I teach
these concepts in a way that 

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will be effective and connect 
with a variety of people. 

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And, you know, and how do I do 
that very quickly and very 

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efficiently. 
And you know, the point of 

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learning these movements and of 
training the body was not to be 

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just good at executing the 
movements. 

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I mean, the entire point 
especially of functional fitness

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and functional movement is you 
are developing more capacity in 

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your body so that when you leave
the studio and you're just 

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living your life, you have 
available greater range of 

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motion, more strength and 
everything just works because 

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you've built up this internal 
capacity and an awareness of how

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to use your body. 
So if you go to pick up a, you 

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know, a heavy box of books or 
groceries, you're going to move 

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your body in a way that is safe 
and supports you and lets you 

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access your strength. 
Like, your body's just going to 

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know how to do that because of 
the way we've been practicing it

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in the studio. 
And after that class, I then 

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also started teaching yoga, and 
I became a yoga teacher, and it 

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was really similar. 
This idea of I want to guide you

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through an experience in the 
studio and on the mat that 

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awakens a little more awareness 
of your own interior. 

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So it's not just about the 
shapes you're making in a 

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physical sense, but the 
awareness and intention that 

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you're bringing to that 
experience. 

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So that when you leave the 
studio and the yoga mat is 

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rolled up in the corner, you're 
actually bringing this awareness

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and these principles to life as 
you're moving through the day. 

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And then I was, I was teaching 
them mindfulness, which was such

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a natural extension of both 
physical practice and these 

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interior practices. 
Mindfulness is a quality of 

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attention, and so you can do 
anything, mindfully or not, you 

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know. 
You can be mindful when you are 

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brushing your teeth, or you can 
just be, you know, like regular 

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distracted. 
You can be mindful when you are 

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attending a meeting with your 
boss. 

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Or you can be, you know, like 
stressed out and performative 

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and distracted, like whatever 
you're doing, You can do it with

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a quality of attention that is a
bit more present and curious and

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kind. 
That's what mindfulness is all 

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about. 
And so then when I started 

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teaching meditation and 
mindfulness, and I was teaching 

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that in the class, but also 
being brought to different 

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companies, different 
organizations, and teaching 

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mindfulness in corporate 
settings, again, the point of it

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is not to teach you how to be a 
really good meditator or how to 

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be, you know, like a level a 
mindfulness practitioner. 

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The point is, can we develop 
some capacities in a very 

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intentional way so that when you
are simply being a human, living

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your life, you have easy and 
ready access to these new ways 

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of being? 
So that when you're going 

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through the day, you're not 
thinking, OK, now it's time to 

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be mindful. 
And I will bring attention to my

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breath and I will observe the, 
you know, the sky and the 

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clouds. 
It's not that formal, but it's 

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this really kind of gentle, 
organic change where you simply 

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begin to inhabit and experience 
your life a little bit 

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differently because of how you 
are becoming changed through the

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specific work that you do in the
class setting. 

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So that's that's always informed
my approach to how I teach and 

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coach when it comes to career 
and leadership and manager 

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development. 
And it directly applies to this 

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specific topic. 
I wanted to share with you the 

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topic today, it's very, very 
specific. 

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I want to speak for a moment 
about communication tips for 

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conflict averse people. 
Now, the reason I shared all of 

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that background about, you know,
how I teach and why I teach. 

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And the way I think about this 
is because if you are a person 

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who is conflict averse, if you 
tend to feel an anxiety spike 

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when there's the sense or 
perception or possibility of 

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some kind of conflict or some 
kind of combative moment, and 

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you kind of feel yourself get 
anxious and shrink or shut down 

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or withdraw or go into silence. 
If that's just something that 

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tends to happen very quickly, 
then what I've found helps is 

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what I'm going to share with you
in a moment. 

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And also the reason why it helps
is because when I coach and 

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teach my clients this, 
especially when we're working 

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one-on-one or in this small 
group, I'm able to work with you

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in a way that lets you access 
the concept in a way that feels 

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really natural and that feels 
like you. 

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So it doesn't feel like, OK, now
there's a conflict that might 

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happen. 
Let me pull out this, you know, 

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diagram or this sheet of paper 
or let me refer back to this 

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book to remember the academic 
application of this principle 

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because that's not how we work 
in real life. 

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Like my goal is to help you 
develop awareness of these 

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capacities, to build your 
capacity so it feels really 

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available and it feels natural 
and you just are like, oh, I I 

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now just know how to do this. 
It's just in me because of now 

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the way I'm seeing and thinking 
and feeling. 

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So for you, when you are feeling
that conflict aversion, and this

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is also important, if you have 
people on your team or maybe 

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it's your boss or maybe it's 
someone that you work with and 

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you have this sense that they 
might be like very conflict 

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averse because it's really 
difficult to pin them down and 

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have a direct conversation. 
Or you sense that when you are 

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being direct you kind of feel 
them shrinking or getting 

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really, really uncomfortable and
it it just becomes this this 

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difficult thing. 
So this message is also for you 

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and I'll explain why in a 
moment. 

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So first, when you are conflict 
averse, there's often a fear 

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that things will escalate and 
become intense and there will 

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either be a sense of like 
pressure or something will go 

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wrong or something bad will 
happen. 

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And it it's not even necessarily
like a super logical thought, 

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right? 
It's it's just this vague sense 

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of if this escalates, something 
bad will happen. 

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The other time it kind of can 
come up is if you want to share 

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something in a meeting but you 
feel like you need to have a 

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perfect answer. 
You're afraid of being wrong or 

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you feel like I can't really 
speak up until my idea is really

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watertight and really solid and 
unassailable. 

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And so you'll kind of hold back 
and really delay participating 

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because of this fear of being 
seen as wrong or being seen as, 

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like, in some bad light. 
Because your idea or the thing 

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that you have to say is somehow 
not perfect or is somehow open 

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to attack. 
Like, that's kind of the feeling

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that is happening underneath. 
And so when you're in that 

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situation and there's somebody 
saying something and you have 

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something else like you're not 
sure that you're totally on 

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board with that, you might not 
say, hey, I disagree with that 

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because that might feel really 
direct. 

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It might feel very confronting, 
right? 

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If you tell someone, hey, I 
disagree, then you're kind of 

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setting yourself up in 
opposition to them. 

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And there's a chance that they 
will then want to argue with you

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about why their idea or 
perspective is correct and why 

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yours is wrong. 
And now we're not even, you 

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know, talking about the idea. 
And now we're kind of locked in 

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this power dynamic of who is 
right and who is wrong. 

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And it can get a little bit 
sideways pretty quickly. 

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And so you might not say, I 
disagree, you know, and to be 

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clear, sometimes that is a great
way to respond, right? 

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Just be really direct, really 
relaxed, really straightforward.

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I I disagree with that. 
But when you are very conflict 

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averse, if you are working with 
people who are conflict averse, 

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that's going to be a really hard
thing to say. 

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There's going to be a lot of 
fear and resistance and 

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reluctance that you'll need to 
overcome. 

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So as an alternative, I have a 
couple ideas. 

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One is the strategy of yes and 
yes, and is something you might 

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have heard about before. 
It's a really popular concept, 

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and it comes from the world of 
improv theater. 

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So improvisation is this idea 
that whatever is happening in 

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the scene, you're just going to 
go with it. 

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You're going to say yes. 
And so if you're improving a 

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scene and someone walks in and 
you say, why were you late? 

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I was, you know, expecting you 
an hour ago. 

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The person in the scene is not 
going to argue with you about it

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or correct you. 
Instead, they're going to say 

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yes. 
I was planning to be here an 

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hour ago, but I got waylaid by a
rogue rhinoceros. 

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The zoo had a security breach 
and the rhinoceros is and the 

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giraffes and the, you know, 
crocodiles got loose and I had 

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to round them. 
OK, so if you're in in improv, 

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the idea of yes and is that 
there's never a need to like, 

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correct or challenge anything. 
Instead, we want to contribute. 

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We want to add to it. 
So in your work situation, what 

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that sounds like is somebody 
shares an idea or they say 

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something and you can say okay, 
yes and and then you simply add 

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to it. 
So yes. 

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And we might also consider XY&Z 
or yes. 

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And I can see, you know, a 
certain, a certain way that that

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might not always work out, 
right. 

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So rather than say, I think 
that's a terrible idea, I 

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disagree. 
You might say okay, yes. 

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And I can see some ways that 
that might not always, that 

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might not always work out for 
us. 

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Or I can see some some other 
ways that that we could do 

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things differently. 
So that's the first one is yes. 

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And you're not spending any time
going against the thing you're 

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not correcting. 
You're not explaining why you 

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disagree with that point. 
Instead, you're contributing 

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your idea, your perspective by 
simly saying yes. 

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And the other part of that is 
that it tends to help create a 

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feeling of connection. 
We want to be really mindful 

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that when we're communicating, 
it's not just about the words we

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use, it's also about the effect 
that those words have. 

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And if our intention is to 
create more connection, to 

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foster more safety, a sense of, 
hey, I am with you, it's okay to

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have lots of different ideas 
then the yes and is a wonderful 

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way to do that. 
The disagreement or the no. 

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But or I, you know, I think 
you're wrong about that. 

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All of a sudden it sets us up in
this dynamic of opposition where

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things can start to feel like 
conflict or attack or now we 

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have to go to battle about the 
rightness or the wrongness of 

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the thing, which isn't 
necessarily the conversation or 

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the relationship that we want to
be in. 

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So that's your first option is 
the idea of yes. 

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And my second idea for you is 
you get to say things like I see

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it differently. 
I love this one. 

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It's so simple. 
I see it differently or I see 

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things differently. 
Because now what you're really 

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talking about is your 
perspective. 

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And what's so cool is you can 
have 10 people in a room all 

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discussing a topic, and each 
person could have a different 

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perspective and they could all 
have something valuable to 

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offer. 
Every perspective can be 

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valuable, even when it's 
different. 

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Sometimes the reason perspective
is valuable is because it's 

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different is because it's not in
full agreement, but instead is 

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illuminating. 
A different aspect is 

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contributing at like a 
different, you know, kind of 

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information or or knowledge, a 
different way of seeing things. 

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And so when you say I see it 
differently, it allows you to 

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offer your perspective without 
carrying a message of you're 

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wrong or you have a bad idea, 
right. 

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As humans, we get so defensive 
so quickly. 

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Whenever we sense that somebody 
is saying you're wrong or you 

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have a bad idea or your approach
is not, is not good, it feels 

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like, you know, disrespect. 
It feels like not being seen. 

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It feels like being made small. 
And we can kind of skip all of 

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that by simply taking this 
approach. 

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If I have something I want to 
add, I have a perspective I want

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to add. 
I see things differently. 

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I see it differently. 
Let me share how I see things 

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because this could be 
interesting. 

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It could be valuable, right? 
And the nice thing too is that 

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we're also not getting into the 
place of right. 

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Like I'm right. 
Listen to me. 

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It's more like I have a 
perspective and it will be 

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valuable and I want to offer 
this value to the conversation 

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or to the group. 
There's not a lot of attachment 

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in it. 
So similar to that, that I see 

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it differently. 
This additional way of saying 

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it, the language I want to offer
you is I have another 

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perspective or I want to offer a
different perspective. 

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I have another perspective 
because again, it's about the 

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way that you see things. 
And this is also so valuable, 

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especially when you are not the 
person who has 100% perfect 

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information, which is pretty 
much always, but especially when

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you rise in leadership. 
Part of your job is actually to 

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not know everything, but to 
surround yourself with people of

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different expertise. 
And part of your job is to hear 

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the perspectives of others. 
So you can weigh kind of the the

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aggregate of what does it all 
mean. 

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So the sales team has one 
perspective, the engineering 

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team has a different 
perspective, the design team has

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another perspective, the 
customer service team has a 

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different perspective. 
And when you are in that 

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leadership role, part of your 
job is to hear what are all of 

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these different perspectives, 
especially when they're not the 

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same because there are things 
that will you know you'll start 

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to make decisions about and 
things you'll start to 

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understand differently when 
you're taking that position. 

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So having different perspectives
becomes important and becomes 

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valuable. 
And so by using that language of

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I have another perspective to 
offer that can be a way of 

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contributing your thoughts 
without feeling like it has to 

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be perfect or it has to be 
better than everyone else's. 

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It starts to get you out of the 
comparison and the stress and 

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00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:56,180
the anxiety of is this good 
enough? 

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And instead you're simply kind 
of acknowledging like there's 

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something I'm seeing. 
I have another perspective. 

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I want to offer it to the room 
now when you are facilitating a 

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meeting. 
OK, so this was the situation 

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where let's say that you wanted 
to share an idea. 

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This is what you do, right? 
Yes. 

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And I see it differently. 
I have another perspective, but 

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00:19:18,460 --> 00:19:23,310
there will also be times when 
you are in a meeting and you 

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00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:28,470
notice there might be some 
voices that tend to dominate the

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00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:34,750
conversation and you might want 
to hear what other people think.

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00:19:34,990 --> 00:19:38,190
You might be curious about the 
quiet voices. 

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00:19:38,590 --> 00:19:42,950
And if you're thinking about how
do I create more space for the 

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00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:47,030
folks who have been a little bit
reserved and how do I do that 

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00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:49,470
without putting someone directly
on the spot? 

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00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,280
Like saying, hey, you, you've 
been really quiet, what do you 

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00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:53,480
think? 
Right. 

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00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,200
Like, not necessarily that 
effective. 

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00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:57,920
Like that person might just say 
what? 

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00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,280
No. 
Like go to somebody else. 

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00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,840
I passed. 
So how can you do that? 

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00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,520
Here's a thought that I want to 
offer. 

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00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:11,600
You can simply ask the room. 
Are there any other perspectives

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00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,640
that we should consider? 
Does anyone see things 

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00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,920
differently that you know we 
haven't heard from yet? 

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00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:22,940
Is there a way of looking at 
this that we haven't discussed 

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00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:25,980
yet? 
By asking for people's 

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00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:33,940
perspectives, by asking for how 
others see this, you can create 

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00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:39,980
the space to make it easier for 
other voices to feel invited. 

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00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,040
And so when you think of 
yourself as a facilitator, and I

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00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,880
know I've talked about this in 
in a prior episode, but 

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00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,240
sometimes the job of a manager, 
I like to think of this as your 

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00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,600
job is to facilitate things. 
Your job is to make it easier 

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00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,760
for your team to do their work. 
Your job is to make it easier 

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00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,960
for you know the the goals to be
met by the way that you manage 

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00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,760
and work with people. 
Like your job is to make your 

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00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,480
boss's life easier. 
Sometimes we wear the 

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00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:13,020
facilitator hat, so one of the 
ways you can facilitate the 

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00:21:13,020 --> 00:21:19,340
participation of some quieter 
voices is to simply ask for 

323
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:24,380
additional perspectives. 
Is there a way that we could be 

324
00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:26,340
looking at this that we haven't 
yet? 

325
00:21:26,940 --> 00:21:30,340
And this is also kind of how we 
tap into the brilliance of 

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00:21:30,340 --> 00:21:34,300
different people, different 
perspectives, by simply asking. 

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00:21:34,660 --> 00:21:38,660
And it will also help invite 
the, you know, the quiet folks 

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00:21:38,820 --> 00:21:42,680
to speak up when the folks who 
feel really, really excited 

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00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,160
about their ideas, right, have 
been talking for a while. 

330
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,760
It gives a little bit of a shift
in that dynamic. 

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00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:55,640
And it's really, really subtle, 
but it can be so effective and 

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00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,520
it can feel so natural. 
Not like, OK, now I'm going to 

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00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,120
do this technique. 
Like, it's really subtle, but it

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00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,180
can be super effective. 
So that's what I wanted you to 

335
00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:08,540
think about. 
You know, as a manager, you're a

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00:22:08,540 --> 00:22:10,340
human. 
And so there are times when you 

337
00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:14,140
might feel a little uncertain of
how to participate and 

338
00:22:14,140 --> 00:22:16,940
contribute and your self doubt 
might flare up and you might 

339
00:22:16,940 --> 00:22:19,660
wonder, like, do I even have 
anything of value to add? 

340
00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:22,620
Remember, you always have 
perspective, and your 

341
00:22:22,620 --> 00:22:25,860
perspective is valuable, maybe 
even in ways that you don't 

342
00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:30,980
understand because sometimes we 
we discount our own perspective 

343
00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:34,840
because it seems obvious. 
So this is something you can 

344
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,280
think about, right? 
The yes, and I see it 

345
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,680
differently. 
I have another perspective I 

346
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,680
want to add. 
And then when you are in the 

347
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,920
role of facilitating 
conversation or leading a 

348
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:52,360
meeting, you can use these same 
language frameworks to invite an

349
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:57,000
even richer conversation and to 
invite participation of folks 

350
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,480
who might be a little bit more 
reserved or a little more 

351
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,760
hesitant. 
The nice thing too with this 

352
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,960
approach is it can also be 
effective when it's not your 

353
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,640
meeting. 
So sometimes when you're not the

354
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,960
lead, it can feel a little 
uncomfortable. 

355
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,480
Like, I don't want to step on 
anyone's toes, but I found that 

356
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:20,000
this is an approach that can be 
used in lots of situations. 

357
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,440
Even if you're not the one who 
is leading the meeting, you can 

358
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:30,880
always kind of find a moment, 
well, in the conversation where 

359
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,200
you say, you know, I'm really 
curious to know, are there other

360
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,960
perspectives we haven't 
considered that we should be 

361
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,560
talking about while we're on 
this topic? 

362
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,600
I'm wondering if anyone else has
a perspective or if if they're 

363
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,200
seeing things maybe in a 
slightly different way that 

364
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:48,960
might add to our conversation 
today. 

365
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,680
Really subtle, but it can be so 
effective. 

366
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,120
So that is what I wanted to 
offer to you today. 

367
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:00,720
If you want to come work with 
me, I'm taking new clients, go 

368
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,240
to the show notes, book a 
consult so we can talk about 

369
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,240
what's going on, what your goals
are and what it looks like for 

370
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,520
us to work together to help you 
create the changes that you're 

371
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,360
looking for in your career, your
work, it it all. 

372
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:17,840
We'll talk about all of it. 
So that's in the show notes. 

373
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,720
Go there. 
If you want to know more about 

374
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,480
the next time I offer the group 
program, go to my website, 

375
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,000
kimnichol.com. 
Go to the new managers page and 

376
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,970
you'll find a little more 
information about that and get 

377
00:24:30,970 --> 00:24:35,090
on my mailing list so that you 
know the next time it is offered

378
00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:38,010
and you can join. 
Thanks so much for listening. 

379
00:24:38,170 --> 00:24:45,210
I'll see you next time. 
When you're more effective at 

380
00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:48,770
work, you're happier in your 
life, and when you're happier in

381
00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:50,970
your life, you're more effective
at work. 

382
00:24:51,490 --> 00:24:55,170
I can help. 
Go to my website, kimnicol.com 

383
00:24:55,330 --> 00:24:57,490
and sign up for a coaching 
consult. 

384
00:24:58,060 --> 00:24:59,260
It can get better.