Welcome to the new manager podcast.
I'm your host, Kim nickel. Hello and welcome.
I am so glad that you're here. And I want to be very honest
with you and tell you that I recorded this episode and then
the more I was thinking about it.
The more I realized there was something else.
I wanted to include and so, I decided to do the whole thing
again, so you're getting a an updated.
And I guess the bonus lesson I want to offer in that is there's
only so much pre-planning you can do.
And at some point the doing of the thing is the learning of the
thing. There are so many ways.
You hear that lesson in the course of career and especially
if you're in the startup space, the whole obsession with
shipping a minimum viable product is because, whatever
idea you have, you want to make it and let people engage with
With it because that's how you will learn how to improve it and
what to make. And when you think about your
career, and when you think about leadership, and when you think
about the decisions you make around your life.
I want to offer the same concept applies.
Like in the same way that I had an idea for an episode.
I recorded it. I created it.
And the process of doing that got me thinking more deeply
about it. And then I realized there was
more I wanted to share. And so you're getting This
revised and updated version. I mean, this is huge just to
remember because especially if you are a little bit of a
perfectionist and you hold yourself to a high standard that
can work against you, when you hold yourself, back trying to
get things, perfect, in theory, rather than creating it engaging
with it in the world and then making new decisions.
Based on the experience that you have had in the course of
creating it. Releasing it.
So the main topic for today is this concept of leadership like
a DJ and I came to this metaphor having gone through a few
experiences, where either leadership changed or I was
working with a team who is struggling with leadership
changing. As a coach with my clients and
they step into leadership roles and they are asking a lot of
questions about how to do it well, and how to do it,
effectively. And a lot of comparison of
themself to other leaders and wondering, how can they be
authentic? Or should they be like the
person who was in the role before, and this concept of
leadership like a DJ essentially, is this If I want
you to imagine that you are at a party or you're at a dance club
and there's a DJ, and they're playing this music, and
everybody is getting with the groove and having a good time
and they are dancing. And it's a lovely moment and
then there's a new day. Jay so current, DJ leaves, new g
day steps up to the deck, start spinning, some music, and
there's a little bit of this moment where everyone kind of
pauses and it's a little bit awkward.
Awkward because everyone's trying to decide like, how do I
dance to this? Do I want to dance to this?
Can I still get with this or do I need to take a break or maybe
even leave completely and every leader brings their own music,
their own tone, their own kind of guiding principles, whether
they are clearly articulated or not.
They bring this and what will happen is everyone will have
this moment of pause as they're trying to figure out.
What is it. That is important to this
person. What are the results that will
be measured what has changed when leadership changes and
depending on how close you sit to that leadership role.
It will affect you differently. So if you're in a really big
Organization. There might be a change in
leadership. And if you're very distant from
that role, then you might not really be affected at all.
And sometimes, this can be great.
It can be the sense of, I know exactly what my job is.
I know what I am supposed to focus on and it doesn't really
matter who is sitting in what chair because I know where my
expertise is, and I know what my job is to do.
So Times leaders can change and you're not terribly affected by
the, you know, the the new DJ and then you music other times.
It can be a significant change. Maybe you are part of the hiring
team. Maybe you had input about who
would be brought in to this new leadership role.
Maybe you had a very close relationship with the previous
leader and now is Ones coming in, you might feel like you have
to rebuild trust and understand. Are we on the same page?
Like what will be different? Now that there's a new leader,
in this role setting the tone changing the music, refocusing
the Strategic priorities. There can be a lot of questions
and that change in leadership may have a very significant
effect on you. And it may even be a situation
where you decide to leave the organization because you're not
really feeling connected to the new leadership.
You're not really feeling the music that they are playing and
you've decided you want to do something else again, which is
fine. It's just interesting to notice.
So this idea of leadership like a DJ and you know, You are
thinking about how you show up as a leader.
It also becomes helpful to think in terms of what is the music
that you're bringing? What is the tone that you're
bringing? And it might be different.
And sometimes, that's fantastic. You can be the breath of fresh
air, or you can be the one who brings Clarity or before there
had been confusion. But also, if you are
experiencing resistance, if you are experiencing a team, that is
not not really getting with the groove of what you're showing up
with. It can be helpful to think in
those terms rather than simply writing people off or being
really hard on yourself. It can invite you to have a
conversation around. What is it that's changing.
And why, as you know, if you've listened to my earlier episodes,
people are selfish and I don't mean this in a negative way or a
bad way, but especially when you are leading or when you are in
the man. General people are wondering.
How does this affect me? If you're stepping in as a new
leader, people want to know. How will this new leader affect
me? Will I be evaluated along the
same criteria will expectations change.
Are we moving in the same direction?
Or will this leader? Make decisions about where we're
going? And how we'll get there.
And we'll, I understand how I fit in and we'll I want to be a
part of this. All of these questions that come
back to us, really just as humans wanting to do good work,
wanting to feel respected and valued and appreciated and it
can be really easy to overlook. The fact that all of this is
going on. Most of the time kind of behind
the scenes. Like it's the questions people
wonder but they might not even bring it up specifically.
So when you are thinking about, That what does it mean to be a
leader or if your leadership is changing asking that question?
Okay, like if we're getting a new DJ, how do I feel about the
music? I'm hearing?
Do I want to dance to this or do I feel like I am a gentle?
No to that and I'll find something else to do.
So here are a couple of things. I want to I want to share with
you and with respect to this. Is that when a new leader comes
in? There are a few specific
questions that will come to mind.
That people will want to know of a leader.
For example, how do you see things?
When a new leader comes in, people want to know, how do you
see things? This is a question about
perspective and a perspective, a question of worldview related to
this. They want to know what are your
guiding principles? And especially when we're
speaking in a language like oh this leader is very data-driven.
They say, oh, I'm happy to be your new manager.
I'm a very data driven person. People still want to know, Like,
what does that mean specifically and what are your guiding
principles around that data around how we get it around?
How we use it around? Which data do we value or
prioritize? Like, people want to know what,
what the guiding principles are similar related to this.
What do you pay attention to? What do you pay attention to?
Because what you pay attention to will often shape what the
expectations are. And also the sense of what is
it, that matters here, and this becomes also very significant
around. You know, how with the culture
and how do we treat one another? So if there is, you know, one
person whose ideas are always discounted or a voice that is
always or consistently overlooked.
Or a voice that is always deferred to.
We're always looking, you know, as humans.
Like where does the leader pay attention?
What is it that they value? Where is their attention going?
If you want to look at it in more of a negative mindset.
That's also the part of you that might feel like a little kid.
That wonders. What can I get away with?
Right. For reading really honest.
It plays out in that direction, too.
Also, we want to know what is important to you.
Whenever a new leader comes in. What is important to you?
This relates again to, like, what are your guiding
principles? How do you see things?
What do you pay attention to? What, what can we get away with?
So, all of these questions are in play and whenever there's
that new person, that moment where you're kind of feeling
into like, is this music I can get with?
It's because we're trying to And and fill in those questions for
ourselves. So I want to give you a specific
example of how I've encountered this in my own career.
Many years ago. I worked for a start-up.
We were maybe 12 people, maybe 18, kind of depended on, you
know, when, in the year it was. So, but relatively small group
and we had this leader, the founder of the company.
His name is Tom, and one of the things he declared, like one of
the things, Things. He said to us was that when we
sell, when we mark it, we do not sell through fear, shame or
guilt, that was part of how he saw things.
That was part of his guiding principle, which is as a company
that is wanting to amplify and contribute in a positive way.
We will not Do that by tapping in to our customers fear.
We won't leverage their shame. We won't amplify a feeling of
guilt in order to drive them to a buying behavior.
And this was a choice that he made and then we could all
aligned to that. And I thought this was
incredible because, you know, as you know, probably because
you're a human who buys things in the world, whether it's
toothpaste. A store, a college degree or
whatever. There are a lot of different
emotions that drive buying behavior and fear.
Shame and guilt are very effective.
Like, if you amplify that enough, you can then sell
someone a solution. And I mean, it works, right?
That's why we see a lot of advertising and a lot of sales
practices whether, you know, their intentional or not like
it's effective and it works. So it's something that we see a
lot. So, with Tom And his role as the
leader who is setting the tone, right, like setting that the
music, he said we don't do this, he just decided.
And so when we then thought about, you know, what do we pay
attention to so much of what we were doing in the way that we
work together? And also the actions we were
taking as we were Building Product out and testing it with
customers. Is we were paying attention to
what are the choices were making that ignite different emotions
with our community and we wanted to really lean on inspiration
possibility. I would even say a sense of
agency. Although that wasn't language
that we used at the time. But as I look back on it, it was
all about redirecting folks attention towards what is
possible for them. And what are the That they can
make. So what is it that you pay
attention to and what is important to them?
And for my manager and leader at the time, Tom?
What was important to him was to build something, meaningful, and
Powerful. That would be a net benefit in
the world and it was important to be mindful of how we were
playing with emotion. Now, all of that really came
from one. Choice.
The choice that he made in his role of leader and manager.
And then he communicated that to us.
And then so many of our decisions and choices about how
we ran the business and how we engaged with customers and
clients would then align to that.
Like that was kind of how we all danced along and I mentioned
this. And, you know, one of the
reasons why I look back on this time with such appreciation.
Is realizing, you know, that was a choice and so much of what
being a leader means. Whether you are a formerly, a
manager and have direct reports and fill out performance reviews
for the people on your team or whether you are an informal
manager, like a product manager or you're managing up, or you're
managing accounts, and you're managing those relationships
even though It's not a direct report situation that the way
that you make decisions sets the tone, the way that you see
things sets the tone, your guiding principles, the
underlying, why of why you make the decisions that you do sets
the tone and this plays into so many different moments.
In the workplace, it affects performance reviews and how
people are evaluated it affects promotions and what behaviors
and qualities are seen as promotable or that register, as
kind of like, valid things. And I'm thinking specifically
of, you know, a client, a couple of client conversations I've had
with folks Who have come to me because they say, you know, I'm,
I'm only evaluated against these particular qualities, but I put
all this other effort into these other things at work, and
they're not being recognized. And so, a lot of the work that I
do with them is coaching them to include that as part of their
value story and to educate, Their colleagues and their
managers so that all of the value that they're creating is
acknowledged and can start to become included in that
evaluation in that assessment. So, you know, it can be, it can
be unsettling. Anytime.
There is a change in leadership. It can feel destabilizing.
Even if it's a leader that you are really excited for, you
know, this has nothing really to do with.
Is it a good leader, or a L, it really is more about how we as
humans navigate change, and a lot of times leadership changes
and you're not involved in that decision, you know, it changes
in, maybe you haven't been a part of that decision, but your
life will be affected depending on who this person is, how they
see things, what their guiding principles are what they pay
attention to what is important to to them.
And then looking at it from the perspective of when you are
stepping into a leadership role, when you are stepping into a
manager role. You may not realize it.
But all the folks connected to you, your team, your peers, the
others that you work with. They may also be taking a moment
of pause to get us. Sense of this about you.
They're also going to be feeling into like what is the music that
you're bringing in? What is the the beat?
What is the tone? Can they dance?
Can they have a good time? Can they work effectively?
With the new music that you are bringing.
So, this is something that I've been thinking about.
And, you know, the first time I recorded this, I realized there
was so much to this that I had not thought about until I
recorded it once, and I decided that it was worth it, that you
are worth it to take the time to re-record this.
And share more with you. So as we get ready to wrap up
this episode, a couple ideas I want to share is when you think
about who are the best leaders or the best managers that you've
worked with, look at it through the lens of like what was it
about them? That made it a great experience.
How did they set the tone? What was the kind of music that
they brought? What was the Decisions that they
made, like in the same way that my former colleague, Tom had a
very clear decision about how we would market and sell, and how
that affected everything that we did.
When you think about the managers you've worked with
that, you've really liked. What were those underlying
principles or guidelines, even if they weren't specifically
articulated like, what was your sense of how they worked, and
how they Did their leadership and managing?
What is it? That was kind of underneath
that. And then if you've ever had a
situation, where you felt really frustrated, it's probably there
because there was a disconnect or a sense of dissonance.
Like it just didn't feel right. Or it felt like there was not
alignment or there was an Abrupt change in strategic direction or
in priorities or in In the vision or the way that was
articulated, abrupt change, can create a lot of resistance and a
lot of friction. And when we have resistance and
friction, it draws so much of our energy and it's really
difficult to do our best work when that is part of the
experience. So those are my thoughts for you
today. I hope you take time to reflect
for yourself on what this has meant for you.
With the leaders and managers that you've experienced.
And when you think about how you want to show up as a leader and
a manager, the toned that you will set and how you will
communicate, what your vision is, how you see things, what
your guiding principle is. What is it that you pay
attention to, you know, with so much work from home happening as
we're in the pandemic. I think one of the things that's
been fantastic is the conversation of, you know, I
don't really care. I'm not going to track when
you're when you're online. Or you know, how many of your
hours are on work hours. What I care about is, are you
getting your work done? Are you available in a reliable
way? Like if you take time off in the
middle of the day in order to drop your kid at school or an
Your to manage your own mental emotional, health, great do it.
Whatever allows you to show up, and do great work.
And as long as our communication is open and we are working
effectively together. I don't need to micromanage when
your butt is in front of your laptop.
I really loved that the way that we're working.
Now, his kind of required that we all become more flexible and
Maybe even more honest, about what we need and about how we're
going to do great work. So take some time, notice for
yourself how this concept might show up and think intentionally
about what is the tone that you want to bring into the workplace
and to the people that you work with.
Thanks so much. I will see you next time.
Do you want personal confidential help with your
situation at work? I offer one-on-one coaching and
can help you overcome challenges reach your goals and become a
more effective leader to schedule a consult.
Go to my website, Kim nickel.com coaching and we'll schedule time
to talk about what's going on with you and how I can help.
Talk to you soon.