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Welcome to the new manager 
podcast. 

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I'm your host, Kim nickel. 
Hello and welcome. 

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I'm glad you're here and I hope 
you're doing well. 

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I have a fun analogy to share 
with you. 

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As we get started. 
I was talking with a client and 

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we were just reflecting on how 
much they had grown and changed 

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in the course of our work 
together. 

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And as we were exploring, why 
that had happened and what had 

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really enabled them to To make 
the change, the analogy that 

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came up was this thought of how 
coaching and being in a coaching

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space is like having noise 
cancelling headphones. 

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And when you come into the 
session, you've got all this 

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noise in your mind and the fear 
and the doubt and the 

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uncertainty and all of the 
catastrophizing, all of the 

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stories that are spinning in 
your mind that you Eight in the 

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course of, you know, being in 
the world and sometimes our mind

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gets really creative. 
But in a very negative 

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Direction, and by coming into 
the coaching container every 

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week, it gave them the space to 
filter out some of the noise. 

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So they could hear more 
carefully and more clearly their

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own signal. 
So, their own sense of what was 

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important, their own sense of 
what they wanted to do their 

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own. 
Perspective rather than getting 

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kind of lost in the noise of 
other people's opinions and what

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will other people think and all 
of that? 

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And as we work together, more 
and more and they learned how to

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hear their own inner voice. 
It became a lot easier to then 

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navigate and deal with all of 
the other external things. 

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And I just love that that 
description of having noise 

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cancelling headphones. 
They think that just very 

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beautifully describes what a lot
of folks go through when you're 

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managing people for the first 
time and you're trying to do our

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right? 
And you might not know yet how 

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to measure your sense of 
success. 

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So I wanted to share that with 
you. 

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Like if you, if you notice that 
in your own mind, you feel 

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sometimes overwhelmed by the 
stress or the anxiety or the 

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worrying about if you're doing 
it, right and how other people 

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are feeling about. 
Out the work that you're doing, 

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then it could be a good signal 
that. 

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What we need to do is get a 
little more clear signal on, 

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what the real issue is, how you 
really want to address it and 

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start to look at at the pieces 
that matter the most, like I was

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coaching someone else she's 
thinking about doing this big 

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change in her work and she's 
like, I don't know, you know, a 

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lot of people say, X, Y and Z 
and I was like, yeah, a lot of 

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people. 
We'll say that but so what, you 

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know what? 
What do you what do you think 

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light? 
Let's talk about what you have 

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seen and what you want, and what
your goal is, let's start there,

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was this really funny moment 
because people are going to say,

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a lot of things they're going to
have opinions and sometimes they

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don't even say it to you, but 
you kind of take it on because, 

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you know, you're like oh this is
what quote unquote, people 

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generally think we do that, it's
okay, okay? 

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Just want to see it. 
So that we can get clear on what

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we actually want to do here. 
So, that is what I wanted to 

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share with you. 
As we get started. 

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The main topic I want us to 
explore today. 

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Is this idea of feeling caught 
in the middle and feeling like a

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failure? 
I see this a lot because 

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especially when you're making 
the transition to being an 

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individual contributor to being 
a people manager. 

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There are a couple relationship 
things that change. 

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Number one, your relationship 
with your work, Changes. 

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Because often the actual work 
you're doing is now different 

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when you are an individual 
contributor. 

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There is the thing that is your 
responsibility to do and very 

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often. 
There's quite a lot of autonomy 

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and Independence in how you do 
it, you have your tasks, your 

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job is to execute on those tasks
and off you go. 

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But when you're now managing a 
team and you are managing not 

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doing the thing but in In fact, 
you are now managing how the 

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thing gets done, it can feel 
very odd because you don't have 

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direct control over how things 
are executed and that feeling of

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I don't have Direct Control can 
feel very disorienting when 

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you're not used to it and it can
leave you scrambling for a 

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feeling of success and 
completion. 

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Like, how do you know When you 
are successfully doing the job, 

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if you are not, the one who is 
in charge of executing the 

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thing, it can also have that 
feeling of how do I know when 

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something is complete? 
And how do I get that 

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satisfaction of? 
Yes, this is complete. 

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If it's kind of an ongoing thing
that is not directly in your 

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hands. 
It can feel very uncomfortable 

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and unsettling and the other 
piece of this. 

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This feeling of Being kind of 
caught in the middle is you'll 

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be receiving communication from 
your manager and you know from 

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probably a couple levels up, 
you'll have more visibility into

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what's going on up there and 
more of that messaging. 

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Now comes to you, it might be in
the form of here. 

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Are the things that we want your
team to accomplish. 

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So you're trying to please and 
meet the requirements that are 

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being asked of you of the people
above you that will start to 

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feel like pressure got a 
complete That and make sure all 

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that gets done. 
And then when you look to your 

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team, they may have their own 
challenges. 

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It might be a really like new 
team like they're new to working

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together or it might be a team 
that is dealing with some new 

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challenges. 
Maybe people are out on leave or

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morale is really low because 
you've gone through layoffs or 

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just just something else 
happening on the team where 

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folks are not necessarily 
operating at their highest level

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and you're trying to figure out,
how do I get my team to function

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and work together in the highest
possible way with the greatest 

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Effectiveness and efficiency and
bring morale up all of a sudden 

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that's a different kind of 
Challenge. 

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And it can feel like a squeeze 
because your people might feel 

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really tapped out, really 
overextended. 

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Maybe they've been working 
really hard for a On time 

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without a lot of relief but at 
the same time, you're getting 

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pressure and direction from the 
folks above you to have your 

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team do more things so you can 
feel really stuck in the squeeze

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and sort of pushed in the middle
between what your team needs. 

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And what they're telling you 
that they want and then what 

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your manager needs, and what 
they're telling you that you 

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want and you might feel like 
it's this impossible conundrum 

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like Heather's. 
Is no possible way to make 

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everybody happy. 
And then we can feel like a 

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failure and that just feels 
terrible. 

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And besides feeling terrible. 
It also takes us out of the 

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perspective that is actually 
useful, right? 

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Because the perspective that is 
not useful, as I'm just stuck in

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the squeeze and there's nothing 
I can do because everyone's 

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going to be unhappy, no matter 
what, that's kind of the posture

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and perspective that leads us to
feel completely without options.

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And kind of like we're already 
defeated and, you know, we go 

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there from time to time, but I 
just want to name that 

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specifically, because when were 
there what helps is to start to 

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shift our perspective and kind 
of look at things a little bit 

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differently and also to 
understand why we're feeling 

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this way. 
So a couple of things one is 

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that if you're a person who is 
used to succeeding at things, 

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this can be a very uncomfortable
place especially when you don't 

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know how to Mark, what success. 
Looks like you also might be 

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thinking, you know, I've never 
done this before. 

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I've never been in this specific
situation before or like this is

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not working out how I thought. 
You might feel like you're 

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failing because everyone is 
unhappy and one of your markers 

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for success is our people happy.
Sometimes, this is so subtle, we

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don't even fully realize it, but
when we feel like I'm not doing,

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Sing it, right? 
And we start to understand why 

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it's like, oh, it's because no 
one around me is happy. 

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And when people are unhappy, I 
feel like I'm doing something 

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wrong. 
I should be able to fix it. 

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What can I do to make people 
feel happy? 

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Because that makes me feel like 
we're doing. 

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Okay, and I'm being successful 
here. 

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So we just want to make sure 
that you're paying attention to 

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what some of these. 
These other kind of elements are

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going on around you. 
The other thing I wanted to 

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point out too is that we tend to
also fall into this recency 

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bias, which simply means that 
the things that have happened 

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most recently are the things 
that take up the most space in 

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our mind. 
And the way this plays into our 

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sense of feeling confident in 
addressing a challenge is, if 

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the most recent experience you 
had is one where Your manager is

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feeling a lot of pressure so 
they're now putting pressure on 

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you. 
You're going to feel like you're

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not doing enough even when we 
look at your track record and 

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can see. 
Look at all of the things that 

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you've successfully brought to 
fruition. 

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Look at all of the evidence of 
the way that you have been 

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successful in navigating or, you
know, accomplishing things in 

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the moment. 
What I A lot is none of that 

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matters that was then. 
I was successful at those things

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then but that doesn't matter 
because right now leadership is 

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breathing down my neck. 
My manager is stressed out and 

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now they are putting extra 
pressure on me and now they want

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me to put pressure on my team 
and I'm so worried that my team 

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is just going to not be able to 
handle it. 

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So this feeling of recency bias,
we can. 

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Forget or simply diminish. 
All of the things in the past 

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that have been successful and 
helpful and effective. 

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And one of the reasons why that 
matters, why we don't want to 

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release or kind of abandon the 
past successes is, we do want to

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pull from them, anything that 
will help you in this moment 

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even if it's simply the 
perspective of. 

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Okay so I'm in a really tough. 
Situation right now, I'm not 

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seeing what the path is yet, but
I do know that I have gotten 

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through tough things. 
Before I do know that I have 

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resilience and that I care 
deeply and I do know that I am 

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creative and like, there's 
there's, there's got to be a way

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to think through this, in a way 
that gives me a path forward and

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remembering to that a path 
forward does. 

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Not always mean. 
Everyone is happy and gets what 

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they want. 
Sometimes there are no solutions

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that. 
Make everyone happy and get 

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everybody what they want. 
Sometimes there are no 

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Solutions. 
There are only decisions that 

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sense of this is the decision. 
I'm making, this is the Judgment

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call. 
I am making in this situation 

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for these reasons. 
And this is where we want to 

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really understand what are the 
reasons behind the decisions you

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make. 
So that it's not simply being 

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reactive or feeling like you 
know you're just like I don't 

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know what to do, I'll just do 
this. 

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This seems available but 
actually it's coming from this 

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place that can be really 
grounded and really principled 

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so that if you need to have a 
conversation and give someone 

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some bad news, Whether it's, you
know, to your manager and 

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saying, okay, we are not going 
to meet that deadline. 

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Let me break it down for you and
show you why. 

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And if there's a way that you 
can help me find an alternate 

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path, let's talk about that, 
right? 

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We address it straight on, from 
this perspective of like we're 

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in this together or on the other
side, you might need to have a 

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conversation with your team or 
someone on your team and say, 

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okay, here's what we're going to
do now. 

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Now, I know this isn't what you 
wanted, or this isn't ideal, but

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here's why we're doing this. 
We're going to go in this 

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direction and you know, let's 
talk about that, right? 

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Sometimes the choices that are 
made above will trickle down to 

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your team and your job is to 
deliver the news in a way that 

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helps people understand what to 
do with that and how to continue

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forward in the best. 
A and depending on your 

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organization, this can actually 
be a really big job because 

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there might be a lot of distance
between upper management and 

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Leadership like the folks that 
are making decisions and then 

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where you are with your team, 
the people who are feeling the 

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effect and needing to implement 
or make changes based on those 

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decisions. 
And those people may not really 

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talk and they may not even 
realize really understand each 

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other. 
I think that sometimes one of 

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the frustrating things that we 
start to realize as we raise 

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ourselves in our career paths is
start to realize, wow. 

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The people making decisions up 
there might not really 

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understand, or even have a lot 
of empathy or appreciation for 

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the folks who are doing like 
that very Hands-On 

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implementation. 
I'm thinking specifically of a 

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situation where there were some 
internal tools that Upper 

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management had decided we would 
use. 

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And sort of my job was to 
communicate, help to communicate

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that to my team and my team. 
At the time, was pretty 

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exhausted. 
Was already stretched thin, 

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because there was a hiring 
freeze and there had been people

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who left, but we couldn't 
rehire. 

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So everyone's workload had 
increased and people were just 

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generally in a bad mood and I 
could totally understand that, 

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like it, It wasn't even a 
question, you know, you have 

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more work now, and nobody's 
really saying thank you about 

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it. 
Like there's so much I can do. 

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But overall, it was this general
feeling of distrust towards 

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management. 
Like management doesn't 

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understand us. 
They don't really care about us.

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They're making these decisions 
about this new tool that we now 

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have to implement. 
That's going to take more of my 

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time. 
So there was a lot of unrest, 

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and a lot of just general 
discomfort. 

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With my team. 
And the way that I saw my role 

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in that situation was, it's my 
job to both. 

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Give them this accurate 
information about what's 

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happening. 
We're going to learn this new 

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tool along this timeframe and 
for me as a manager, my 

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perspective to was I want to 
understand like who they are as 

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humans and what like how this is
going to land for them. 

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So it really was just the 
acknowledgement of. 

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I know there's a lot. 
Going on, and this is not ideal.

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But here's what we're going to 
do. 

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And here's the way that I think 
we can do this in the most 

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useful way. 
And when people were frustrated 

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or unhappy about it, and express
that to me, I didn't have to 

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explain or defend like 
leaderships decision. 

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I really responded simply with 
compassion and empathy and also 

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a sense of clarity about 
Direction. 

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So, what that looked like, was 
sort of hearing this person out 

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and saying, I hear you, I 
totally get it. 

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I understand. 
Yeah, that makes perfect sense 

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to me. 
Thank you for telling me. 

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Thank you for coming directly to
me and telling me this. 

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I appreciate it. 
And this is the direction that 

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we're going. 
So let's figure out how to do 

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this in the best way and the 
most useful way. 

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And my intention there was to 
both hear them. 

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And also as a manager might 
philosophy was that I would 

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rather have my team come to me 
directly and tell me something, 

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even if I didn't have the Power 
to change it. 

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I would rather have them tell me
instead of either kind of being 

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grumbly about it at the water 
cooler or kind of carrying it 

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inside like this growing 
resentment and Grudge because 

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though the that has a way of 
kind of showing up in unexpected

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ways just in terms of kind of 
being disengaged and withdrawn. 

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And so as a manager part of what
I was paying attention to was 

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what is our relationship? 
Can I Knowledge that this might 

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not be awesome for people and 
here's how we can move forward 

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as a team, right? 
Like, let's have that 

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conversation, it doesn't mean 
that everybody's happy. 

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But, sometimes even simply being
heard and understood even when 

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nothing can come directly of 
that, it is still a very 

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meaningful thing because it's a 
way of signaling respect and 

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appreciation and I can kind of 
see you as the This whole person

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in a whole picture and also for 
you as the manager, it becomes 

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valuable to understand what is 
the effect of some of the 

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decisions that happen elsewhere 
because that might be 

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information that you will need 
to communicate at some point 

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down the line, right to document
like what actually happened, did

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this rollout work as planned? 
If not, what do we need to do 

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differently? 
Are there other things you can 

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ask for to help facilitate? 
With your team or is it simply 

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going back to your manager and 
saying? 

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Okay here's an issue that's 
coming up. 

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Here's how I'm trying to address
it and I might need some help 

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with this. 
Can you help me think through 

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how to do this? 
Now of course, that depends a 

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lot on your relationship with 
your manager. 

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Not everybody has a great, you 
know, a lot of trust and a sense

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of you can go to your manager 
for help, especially if your 

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manager has a different 
philosophy. 

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Fee. 
They might say, you know what, 

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you just tell people it has to 
be this way. 

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I mean, that's an option. 
Some people do that. 

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They find it useful. 
I tend to not take that 

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approach, but all of, which is 
to say, I want to invite you to 

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00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,200
think about. 
How can you see this in a way 

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00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,300
that gives you some options in a
way that brings you back to your

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sense of agency and in a way 
where you're not, In the 

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00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:13,200
heaviness of feeling like a 
failure because people aren't 

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happy, you feel caught in the 
middle and you forgotten all of 

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the great qualities and 
strengths that you have even 

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when you're in this difficult 
place. 

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So, that's what I wanted to 
offer you today and the reminder

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to you that sometimes there 
isn't a nice neat solution, 

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sometimes it really is just a 
Asian, what is the decision? 

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I'm going to make here. 
And why? 

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And then, how will I communicate
that out? 

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So as we wrap up, I also want to
invite you to come work with me.

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What we do on the consult, is we
take a look at where you are. 

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What's going on? 
Then we look at where you want 

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00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,200
to get to what you want to have 
be different and I'll tell you 

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00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,500
how I can help you with that and
then you can make a decision if 

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you want to do that. 
Work with me or not. 

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00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,800
Ultimately I want to get you to 
a place. 

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Are you don't feel like you're 
having to play whack-a-mole and 

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00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,600
just be reactive and 
overwhelmed. 

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I really want to help you feel 
like you have more control in 

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00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:21,900
your career in your life at work
and really honor and respect the

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way that you are showing up as a
leader as you grow. 

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So if that sounds interesting to
you, I would love to chat. 

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You can go into the show notes, 
you will find a link to my 

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00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,300
calendar and I hope you have a 
really great week. 

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00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:43,500
I'll talk to you next time. 
Hey, before you go if you like 

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00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:48,800
this podcast, leave a review. 
Tell me why you listen and what 

343
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,100
has helped you? 
Thanks so much. 

344
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:43,500
I'll see you next time. 
Hey, before you go if you like 

345
00:21:43,500 --> 00:21:48,800
this podcast, leave a review. 
Tell me why you listen and what 

346
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,100
has helped you? 
Thanks so much. 

347
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:52,300
I'll see you next time.