1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,600 Welcome to the new manager podcast. 2 00:00:07,700 --> 00:00:16,800 I'm your host, Kim nickel. Hello and welcome. 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,600 I am so excited for you to meet my guest today. 4 00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:24,300 His name is Adam. Hey, she's a friend. 5 00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:28,400 He'll tell you all about his perspective and some great 6 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,700 stories about leadership and management. 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,700 And one of the reasons I was excited to invite Adam on to 8 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:39,900 talk with you is because he's had an experience in leadership 9 00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:45,500 across a lot of Organizations from very tiny, very new 10 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:53,400 startups to Global Technology organizations to the military, 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,200 to the dance floor. And we talked a lot about 12 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:02,200 beginner's mind and he just has had this very rich set of 13 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:08,700 experiences working with humans and with teams and I am really 14 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:10,900 excited for you to hear from him. 15 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:22,200 So, let's get to it. Well, welcome Adam, I'm so glad 16 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,200 that you're here. Thanks. 17 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,000 You tell us a little bit about who you are. 18 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,300 I am a guy who shows up and tries to engage with what he 19 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:41,300 finds. My standard career answer is I'm 20 00:01:41,300 --> 00:01:45,200 a Navy veteran. Who grew up in Albuquerque, New 21 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,900 Mexico. I'm very interested in 22 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:51,600 creativity. That's probably my number one 23 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:58,700 value professionally and I have always tried to find ways to 24 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,500 integrate that professionally. And so I Departed the Navy and 25 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:05,800 wanted to work in Tech. So I bought a one-way ticket to 26 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:10,900 San Francisco. Worked at a drone startup for a 27 00:02:10,900 --> 00:02:13,900 year worked at Facebook for a few years. 28 00:02:14,700 --> 00:02:17,500 Went back to working for government on a software 29 00:02:17,500 --> 00:02:21,300 development team. And now I'm working two jobs at 30 00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:25,700 the same time, one doing government work and then the 31 00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:29,700 other working and I guess you would call it consumer insights. 32 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:36,100 And you, and I have known each other for several years and we 33 00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:39,000 are friends. And we've also worked together. 34 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,000 And one of the reasons I was really excited to have this 35 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,900 conversation with you is in part because of your perspective. 36 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:51,600 And, and what I've heard you say in the past, about your thoughts 37 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,800 around, what it means to be a leader, what it means to work 38 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:02,100 with people and because of your perspective, both in Industries 39 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:07,700 and also what you experienced in the Navy and how you've brought 40 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:12,300 some of those insights and stories into your own work Life 41 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,200 as a people leader. And, and also, I'm super curious 42 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,000 to know to and we'll talk about this, you know, how, like, what 43 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,900 is it mean to manage people when you don't have like direct 44 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:27,900 authority over them? Mmm, right? 45 00:03:27,900 --> 00:03:30,600 Like when you're managing by influence, or you're managing a 46 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,600 product, or you're managing like a with a customer relationship, 47 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:43,200 or you're managing up and I would be interested in anything 48 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,200 that like Sparks a thought for you. 49 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:48,000 Around any of what I've just shared. 50 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:52,900 Well, I don't know if this, I don't know, let's see how this. 51 00:03:52,900 --> 00:03:57,200 Let's see, how this turns out. I really enjoyed the experience 52 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,900 of being a beginner and cultivating a beginner's mind 53 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:05,500 set because when you're the new person on a team you tend to see 54 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:09,100 all the flaws easier than people who've been there for a while. 55 00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:11,100 But but you also see opportunities. 56 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:14,800 I think I was working at Facebook on a team that had 57 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,899 nothing to do with product development per se. 58 00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:20,300 I was on like the corporate security team that managed You 59 00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:22,500 know, the safety of the employees and building security 60 00:04:22,500 --> 00:04:28,000 and badges and cameras and such, although we did manage, we did 61 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,000 manage operations for a product for Amber Alerts. 62 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,600 When kids go missing, if you're in a certain zip code and you 63 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,500 have your setting set as such, when the government issues, an 64 00:04:37,500 --> 00:04:43,800 amber alert Facebook will do the same thing and When I discovered 65 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,600 this a, I thought it was amazing and be I had an idea, but I 66 00:04:47,608 --> 00:04:50,800 thought surely someone has thought of this like already, 67 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,600 there's no way this couldn't be the case. 68 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:56,900 So this was in 2016. I discovered this Amber Alert 69 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:59,200 product about four years earlier. 70 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,700 Facebook had bought Instagram and I thought surely like, 71 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:05,100 where's the Instagram version? I'm like searching in on the 72 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:08,700 internal database stuff and I'm like, it's the same format, you 73 00:05:08,700 --> 00:05:11,400 know, scrolling through a feed. There's some level of 74 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,100 geolocation. Both companies, although 75 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:16,500 Facebook bought Instagram, both companies have a socially 76 00:05:16,500 --> 00:05:19,800 oriented Mission. And like, I did a ton of 77 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,200 research and nobody had thought about it. 78 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:27,600 So I wanted to pitch an idea to To pursue it. 79 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,200 And I did work in product management. 80 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,800 I was not a software engineer. I was at Facebook, not 81 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,700 Instagram. Like there's there's no way any 82 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:40,000 of this should have been successful but I get really 83 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,500 energized when a vision kind of takes control of me and like, 84 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:46,300 I'm like this needs to be a thing or it's you know how 85 00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:49,900 amazing would it be? And then I sort of informally 86 00:05:49,900 --> 00:05:51,100 started networking in the company. 87 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:55,700 I was doing a volunteer program in East Palo Alto with with 88 00:05:55,700 --> 00:05:57,900 kids. Like not daycare because they 89 00:05:57,907 --> 00:06:00,900 were middle schoolers, but middle schoolers, who had time 90 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:02,500 after school before the parents, get home. 91 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:04,700 So, it was called the spark program. 92 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,300 And there were some Instagram product managers there. 93 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:11,700 So you know, I got to know one of them and sort of asked, 94 00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:15,500 Ginger, Ginger questions about how they have, their process 95 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:17,100 works for new products and so forth. 96 00:06:17,100 --> 00:06:19,100 I share this idea and she's like, that sounds really cool. 97 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:22,300 You should meet someone so and so I'm sort of a natural 98 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:25,000 networker and I really just genuinely enjoy meeting people 99 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,000 hearing her story, so I met the right people, Instagram. 100 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,200 And I also think like when you don't know what you're doing or 101 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,600 you're new to something. There's like this youthful 102 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,300 energy that you can bring no matter how old you are. 103 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:41,600 That gets people like excited, I forget the name of it but 104 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,100 there's a phenomenon. I think it's like like the 105 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:48,300 college student phenomenon. Like there's this, like let's 106 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:51,700 say you're working for like Johnson & Johnson if you're a 107 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:53,800 college student and you're really excited about some 108 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,100 consumer packaged Goods or whatever. 109 00:06:55,100 --> 00:06:58,400 And somehow you get, Email address that Co you say, hey, 110 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,300 I'm a junior at Cornell. I'm super interested in learning 111 00:07:02,300 --> 00:07:04,800 what it's like to be a CEO. We be my podcast, like you'll 112 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,800 get a reply as a college student, and then if you join 113 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,600 and you're like a low-level assistant product manager, you 114 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,800 email the CEO. He's not going to respond to 115 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,800 you. So, there's this weird Paradox 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,200 where when you show up from a youthful perspective, like 117 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:21,600 people something about that. Engages people. 118 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,500 And I think it's an energetic thing. 119 00:07:23,500 --> 00:07:26,700 And so I and so I basically put together a pitch deck Jack and I 120 00:07:26,707 --> 00:07:29,800 was like, I don't really know crap about pitching, I don't 121 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,000 know crap about software, but I'm pretty good at Google and 122 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,000 I'm pretty good at Microsoft Paint and I think those are two 123 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,100 skills and those people can do. So I did open source. 124 00:07:37,100 --> 00:07:39,800 Research you know, other other technologies have used Amber 125 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,000 Alerts, the driving application ways uses it. 126 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:46,100 If there's a kid missing it'll give you look. 127 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:50,100 So I did research on software other products, I took 128 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:51,500 screenshots of what they look like. 129 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,500 I figured out their functionality, I learned what a 130 00:07:55,508 --> 00:07:58,700 wireframe. I put together like a wire frame 131 00:07:58,700 --> 00:08:01,000 of what it should look like in the Instagram app by just 132 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,600 copying, like, zero technical skill, but like, I was, I was 133 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,300 into it, and I believed in it, I guess. 134 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:09,800 And so, I put together this pitch deck, I and then, I moved 135 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,600 up the chain. I shared it with some peers and 136 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,000 then I shared with my manager and then I shared it with the 137 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,300 initial people, I met Instagram, and by that point, it had gotten 138 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:19,700 super polished, I got a meeting with the team and Instagram to 139 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:21,700 this social good and then pitched it. 140 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:24,500 And they were like, they were super excited about it. 141 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:30,000 So for me, it was Sharing, if you're working on something that 142 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,600 you really believe in. I think belief, you know, the 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,900 more I learn about Carl, Jung, and religion, and mythology, and 144 00:08:39,900 --> 00:08:42,600 philosophy, and I'm just a dabbler, I'm not an expert in 145 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,600 any of that, but the more wisdom I find in these Ancient Ancient 146 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,800 traditions, and I think that like, I'm like a metaphysical 147 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,300 level having like belief about something that you can't prove 148 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,700 is terribly attractive and it takes a lot of Courage because 149 00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:02,300 we live in such a science focused Society. 150 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:05,200 Like, you know, don't make any claims about anything until you 151 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,800 can prove it, but we're not wired that way as humans we want 152 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,000 to feel caught up in the energy of someone who really believes 153 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,400 in something and we want to be a part of that. 154 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:19,500 So, by introducing that energy and then getting feedback from 155 00:09:19,700 --> 00:09:22,100 People and like, bringing them on my side and being a part of 156 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:23,900 it. You know, I people it seemed 157 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:25,400 like they were pretty attracted to that. 158 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,900 What I love about what, I just heard there were two things, and 159 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:35,900 one is that when you have this, genuine belief and energy, 160 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,300 people are drawn to that and actually want to help like part 161 00:09:39,300 --> 00:09:41,800 of what you were saying in your story is about not just being a 162 00:09:41,808 --> 00:09:46,500 networker, but you kept meeting people who wanted to help, hmm, 163 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:49,600 right. Because you were in so much. 164 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:51,800 Easy as mm. And so much belief about it 165 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:55,100 while you're like, yeah, like there are things, I don't know. 166 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:57,100 But this is what I do know. Hmm. 167 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,100 And this is what I'm excited about. 168 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:03,200 We need to make this happen, that's one thing and then kind 169 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,700 of related to that. But you said this at the 170 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:13,000 beginning which was how you have enthusiasm when you're new at 171 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,200 something. Hmm and I think that's so key 172 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:21,000 because one thing I see with you know, with The work I do is that 173 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,500 when people are moving into new manager roles or they're, you 174 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,100 know, taking on more responsibility, there's the 175 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:30,800 enthusiasm. But then there's often with it 176 00:10:30,900 --> 00:10:34,600 often a lot of fear or anxiety because they realize oh like 177 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,000 managing you know, managing a team of designers is different 178 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,900 than being an amazing designer or realizing like, oh, there are 179 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:46,700 things that I haven't realized that will be required of me, in 180 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:48,300 this new role as a people manager. 181 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,800 And what I heard from Is that being new is great. 182 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,600 Not knowing everything. Also great being enthusiastic 183 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,900 and being in belief, it all comes together, it all works. 184 00:10:59,100 --> 00:10:59,700 Yeah. Yeah. 185 00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:04,300 I hope new managers who listen to this are excited by the 186 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:08,800 potential of being a manager because if well done design is 187 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,300 exciting. And Well, Done engineering is 188 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:14,500 really interesting and exciting. When you make something super 189 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:18,000 efficient or whatever your manager, you're like, in this, 190 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,100 you have the privilege of Of being surrounded by amazing 191 00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:23,600 humans, who produce all that magic. 192 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,100 So that enthusiasm is like, is there anything better? 193 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:30,200 Is there anything cooler? Now it's, you know, if you're if 194 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,400 you're someone who's drawn to being the individual contributor 195 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,200 building the widget, of course, that's going to be somewhat of a 196 00:11:34,208 --> 00:11:38,700 challenge. But if your Blinds To how 197 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,700 amazing human beings are, then you're doing yourself a 198 00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,000 disservice. I think by locking out the 199 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,200 enthusiasm that should come naturally for being in a 200 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,100 management position. Who has been the best manager 201 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,000 you ever had? The best manager I ever had was 202 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,800 probably my last boss. I got named Mark who I guess 203 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,600 checks. All the wickets in things that 204 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,800 get me excited. He started two different 205 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,000 Ventures that. I was a part of and both both 206 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,300 had no guarantee of success. They were kind of both startup e 207 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:20,200 organizations and the first was a hardware startup trying to use 208 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,200 drones for a humanitarian Aid delivery and I get really jazzed 209 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:29,600 around technology and like Civil Society trying to trying to 210 00:12:29,608 --> 00:12:33,100 help, I don't know, make the world a better place to take a 211 00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:38,300 Say, praise. And So, I met him, he want to 212 00:12:38,308 --> 00:12:40,900 pitch competition and he just had a really compelling vision. 213 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:44,500 And then I stayed in touch with him all his a Facebook and he 214 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:50,600 brought me back onto my last team and what was compelling to 215 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:56,000 me about him as a manager is like I think one of the most 216 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:02,900 empowering feelings is when someone hired its kind of when 217 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:06,000 someone hires you and then they like get out of the way they're 218 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,600 like, hey, we hired you for a reason. 219 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,800 Like you've got my full trust in permission to just go. 220 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,900 And just go. And so it's sort of this like, 221 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,800 Greenfield Blue, Sky, Blue Ocean. 222 00:13:19,900 --> 00:13:23,600 Like I get I get to do that. I can just do whatever I want. 223 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,300 So I worked for him, like I said on two different Ventures and in 224 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:30,800 both cases, I didn't have a job description. 225 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:34,700 He never once told me what to do, he trusted that I was the 226 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:38,100 kind of person who kind of has a Seek and Destroy mentality on 227 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:44,000 problems and in efficiencies, and Drops and morale and stuff 228 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:49,100 like that and that I naturally want to make things better and 229 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,000 make the organization better. So both for small teams, the 230 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,900 first was about 10 people, the second there was like 16 of us 231 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,700 and it just felt like, I guess I felt seen like that. 232 00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:03,200 He saw the best that I had to offer and I was able to leverage 233 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,900 all the skills that I had and all the things that I'm good at 234 00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:12,100 and both in both cases, how did you see him do that? 235 00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:17,200 At like, what can you point to something specific that made you 236 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:24,100 feel seen and trusted? well, so I first met him at a 237 00:14:24,108 --> 00:14:29,500 pitch competition in 2014 and was very intimidated because he 238 00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:34,300 was working on his Ph.D, he was a software engineer and I was 239 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:37,400 like, no way is this dude going to you know and I was working on 240 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,100 my own confidence no way is this dude going to hire a bozo like 241 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:49,000 me to help out and as I as I was skipping ahead and trying to 242 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,000 come up with like advice It's to Future managers. 243 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,300 And one of them is like to show up, don't overthink it don't, 244 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,500 don't have to have a whole plan fair. 245 00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:59,700 I just show up and see what happens because I emailed them 246 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:01,500 like, kind of just showed up a few months later. 247 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,300 I was like, hey, I saw you with this pitch competition. 248 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,800 I don't know how I can contribute, but I'm confident 249 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,800 that I can find a way. Will you? 250 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,700 Let me be a part of your team and submitted phone call? 251 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:14,300 He's like, he's like, yeah, sounds good. 252 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:16,300 He's like, there's a lot of challenges and a lot of 253 00:15:16,308 --> 00:15:17,800 ambiguity. But why don't you just join a 254 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,400 meeting and see what you find? And I said yeah how about I 255 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,100 joined the meeting and I'll come up with a list of notes of 256 00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:27,100 opportunities and challenges that I see and how plan to go 257 00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:29,800 about solving them and if that sounds good to you that will 258 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,400 just proceed. So I jumped on a phone call it 259 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,300 was a it was a distributed team this isn't 2015 and we were 260 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:41,600 doing some crowdfunding for an initial pilot project and I said 261 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,100 nobody here really has a vision for the crowdfunding campaign. 262 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,300 We're not leveraging, a lot of, you know, head of just a bunch 263 00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:53,400 of different ideas around how to decide in the campaign and so 264 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,700 forth. And I'm the kind of person who, 265 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,500 when I propose an idea, I try to make it, well, thought out and 266 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:02,300 organized, rather than like the good idea Ferry, which gets a 267 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,500 bad rap, who just doesn't think through ideas. 268 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:07,700 And so I propose ideas. He's like the sounds awesome, 269 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:09,500 like go for it. And then so I came up with a 270 00:16:09,508 --> 00:16:11,600 media outreach campaign. I got to speech, read it fast. 271 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,900 Company magazine. I designed our Indiegogo and 272 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,300 like I would come up with a plan and With him and he's like, 273 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:19,200 yeah, it looks awesome. I'd come up with a plan, I would 274 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,300 check in with him, he should say looks awesome. 275 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,500 And there's a leadership principle in the in the military 276 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:29,100 called command by negation. And what it means is if you're a 277 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:33,600 commander and you're in charge like you fully empower the 278 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:38,600 people under you to like do what they need to and command by 279 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,400 negation is like you let them run with it and all you do is if 280 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,200 you don't want them to do something, then you speak up. 281 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,200 But otherwise, they have full trust and authority to go forth 282 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,800 and Execute so I felt like I had this command by negation 283 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:53,300 relationship and then on the second team, he got a big chunk 284 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:55,200 of money from the government had to recruit a bunch of software 285 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,500 engineers and I never was formerly a recruiter. 286 00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:04,099 But during my own career search I became familiar with Angel 287 00:17:04,099 --> 00:17:07,200 list, a little bit with stackoverflow and some other 288 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,300 platforms. And as we stayed in touch, when 289 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,599 he started his second Venture, he knew that I was a prolific 290 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,400 networker that I knew the career services. 291 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:18,099 Chad interviewed a bunch of startups. 292 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:21,599 He had a team of Engineers and technicians and had all these 293 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,099 soft skills needs. And the ball was being just 294 00:17:24,099 --> 00:17:26,000 dropped left and right. He's like, hey, we need help 295 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,300 recruiting, we need help briefing. 296 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:31,900 All these VIPs that come in, we need help with all this stuff. 297 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,500 I think you're the right person for it, and I want to bring you 298 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:37,300 back and I didn't think twice and moved back out there. 299 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:38,600 And again, I didn't have a job description. 300 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,500 I don't have whatever. He said, you know, one of you 301 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:43,700 sit down. See what everyone's up to see 302 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:45,600 what we're working on. What problems, you can identify 303 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,800 in your plan and And and so I did and I, you know, I built a 304 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,900 recruiting pipeline. I probably interviewed 500 305 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:55,500 candidates and just created systems around how to bring in 306 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,700 Talent how to how to communicate, what we were 307 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:01,700 building and so on and so forth. So it was a little bit 308 00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:04,100 open-ended, maybe the downside it was is it was probably too 309 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:06,900 open-ended and I did share feedback with him like came in. 310 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,000 There's a lot that I could do, I need to better know your vision 311 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,600 and maybe we can negotiate together, but with someone who's 312 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,000 open and receptive to feedback, that's something you can work 313 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,500 through. Thank you for sharing that 314 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,300 story. I loved I loved all of those 315 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,900 pieces and and I think one of the things I hear people feel 316 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:30,400 challenged with is they'll say, well I know that I want my 317 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,700 people to feel seeing and supported, but I don't know how 318 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:36,400 to how to make that be true. I don't know what I need to do 319 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,600 in the manager seat, in order to do that and the story that you 320 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,300 just shared was filled with so many of these examples that, you 321 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:46,400 know, might sound like kind of little things. 322 00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:48,300 Actually, they're really big things. 323 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:54,100 The idea of giving you all of this room to bring your ideas 324 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:56,400 and just say, yeah, go for it, go for it. 325 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,500 And recognizing that, even though it, you might not have 326 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,100 had a formal recruiting background, but you had the core 327 00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:06,000 skills, you're good at meeting people. 328 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 You are had a great relationship building and networking skills, 329 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,700 you knew where people were and being able to see all of that 330 00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:17,300 and invite you in to create. Something new. 331 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:22,500 But she then did I'm interested to what you shared about the 332 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:28,000 concept of command by negation what other stories or what other 333 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,700 Concepts did. You learn during your time in 334 00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:36,300 the Navy that have been also applicable in the work that you 335 00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:41,700 do now? That's a good question me six 336 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:46,200 years ago with I joke me 6 years ago, would hate who I am now, 337 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:51,100 because I'm guilty when I was in the Navy, there was no shortage 338 00:19:51,100 --> 00:19:53,300 of challenges, and there was a lot of things that I did not 339 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:59,800 enjoy about it, but I think it's easy to take for granted the 340 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,900 positive benefits of an organization. 341 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:05,900 There is a TED Talk that I understand turned into a book 342 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,300 that went viral called like the checklist, Manifesto by a 343 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:14,200 surgeon who talks about how Seeing your thinking into a 344 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,500 checklist improves the quality of surgery which is great. 345 00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:22,200 We all want to be on the receiving end of a surgeon who's 346 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:23,700 calm and collected and organized. 347 00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:26,300 But when I heard it was a TED talk in a book that went viral. 348 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:28,700 I was like what's the big deal? Like we use checklists 349 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:32,600 everywhere in the military. It's like so common sense 350 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:37,300 because there's so many moving parts and like, you simply don't 351 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,900 have the creative capacity to track everything you need to 352 00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:42,900 track. And so there's checklist. 353 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,200 Be wearing for everything. And what I think, I took away on 354 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:51,000 a meta level from the military is, how important structure and 355 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,800 routine is and how much structure and routine you can 356 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,400 build out even if you're a three-person startup. 357 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,700 Like I said, I'm working two jobs right now and so one of 358 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:03,700 them is this small for person startup. 359 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,300 And when I joined, it was just like there was no Direction. 360 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:13,100 There was no routine. And although there's 361 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,100 Extraordinary amount of ambiguity, and we're still 362 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:17,400 building our sales pipeline. We're still building a product 363 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,300 Market fit. You can say, hey, every Tuesday, 364 00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:23,200 we're having a weekly team sink. Hey, here's going to be the 365 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,800 agenda, every Tuesday, we're going to go over New Leads. 366 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:27,200 We're going to go over current engagements. 367 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,400 We're going to go over Tech stack development, we're going 368 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,700 to see if anybody has any questions. 369 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,100 So you can always inject process and routine and I think, you 370 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:39,100 know, we're cyclical creatures. You know, my niece and my 371 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:42,300 nephew's. I'm a proud uncle and like kids 372 00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:43,300 need routine. Teen. 373 00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:46,500 And although we get better at it as adults if we're removed too 374 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,400 much routine. I think it's really bad for us 375 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:54,700 and routine and structure. You can always build routine and 376 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:59,300 structure. And it doesn't I totally, I 377 00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:01,800 think it's a complete lie that that gets in the way of 378 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,000 creativity, like, no, it doesn't at all whatsoever. 379 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,400 In fact, you can, you can make creativity a process, it's like 380 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,000 James L teacher says, come up with ten ideas a day. 381 00:22:10,008 --> 00:22:12,400 There's a repeatable process that is always going to be 382 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,000 challenged you to be thinking. Outside the box. 383 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:20,300 So I think routine and routine and process and structure and 384 00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:23,600 the tremendous value that has on being a human on a team. 385 00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:26,800 And I think more I have other ideas but I don't want to keep 386 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,600 jabbering. You're here. 387 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,400 I mostly want to get all of the ideas in your brain. 388 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,600 Get the other. We can hear them know them too. 389 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:37,300 Yeah. The other thing that I've been 390 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:41,800 thinking about a lot recently is and I say this with a little bit 391 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,500 of tenderness because I guess, maybe, I'm maybe this is 392 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:48,100 somewhat countercultural. What people talk about nowadays, 393 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,900 but the concept of a military and even government. 394 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:54,200 That's an institution philosophically that's been 395 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,800 around, for a long, long time. A number of religions out there 396 00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,800 have been around for a long, long time. 397 00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:05,100 And while the negative news of both is what makes it on CNN, 398 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,100 you know, the my background is Catholicism and it's a faith 399 00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:13,100 tradition that I went far away from and him slowly. 400 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:17,700 Turning to and like discovering all this value that I was like 401 00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:21,400 blind to and in the military, when I left, I was very 402 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,100 disheartened over a bunch of the negative aspects of it. 403 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,500 And I'm certainly not. You can do well all day on our 404 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:34,100 on our shortcomings, from a foreign policy perspective, but 405 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:38,300 there's these Noble aspects and stories that nobody knows about. 406 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,000 Like I think the military is going to wrote. 407 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,400 The US military is the number one provider of humanitarian Aid 408 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,400 in the world. Old. 409 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:46,300 What story doesn't make it to cnn.com. 410 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:51,000 You know, you look at the nobler aspects of of the Christian 411 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,700 tradition, it's a tradition that tries to focus on. 412 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:58,100 How do you love people better? How do you engage with Faith and 413 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,600 Hope? How do you allow Grace and 414 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,500 Redemption to enter into your life and people around you. 415 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:12,300 And so What's interesting to me, is the parallels between the 416 00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:15,600 Christian tradition and pick any pick, any religion really pick 417 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,500 any Traditions, been around for a couple thousand years and 418 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:20,600 you'll find these Trends and think of military and government 419 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,500 and they all have an articulated ethos that kind of describes 420 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:28,900 what's really important to them. And so, you know, in the 421 00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:31,300 military, you have, like, if you're in the Navy of like the 422 00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:35,100 sailors Creed, if you're a Navy SEAL, they have their own 423 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:38,400 specific, ethos, you know, if you're there Different 424 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,400 statements of Faith from different religions. 425 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,000 So, like an articulated, ethos, that guides who you are seems to 426 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,100 be ever present in the Richer traditions of human 427 00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:49,200 organization, which is really interesting to me. 428 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:55,200 And then like ritual, like, there's all these fun traditions 429 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,300 in the Navy, like once every two months, you do what's called a 430 00:25:00,308 --> 00:25:02,800 hail and farewell you welcome the new people and you say 431 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,600 goodbye to the old people and it's a very positive experience 432 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,300 that wishes people. Well who Are heading out and 433 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:11,400 welcomes the new people and they're like, we're glad you're 434 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,200 here. You're part of the team were 435 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,300 thrilled to have you. And I took this for granted and, 436 00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:18,400 you know, you think, you know, every great religion has these 437 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,700 Traditions, like, I believe Muslims, pray five times a day 438 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:25,800 and the direction of Mecca. And so there's these embodied 439 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,900 rituals that are part of the organization to me that seemed 440 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,600 to exist across organizations. And so I think there's a lot of 441 00:25:34,608 --> 00:25:36,900 wisdom in that. A third thing that came up is 442 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,200 symbology. Like it in your dress, uniform. 443 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,200 In the Navy, you have like a Crest on your hat. 444 00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:47,000 That's been around for, you know, since the Inception of the 445 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,300 US Navy, the Royal Navy has the same thing from the UK, which is 446 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:52,300 where our tradition comes from. That's a little bit different, 447 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:55,000 but it's a little bit similar, even our adversaries. 448 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,600 You look at the uniforms of Russia and China and like, they 449 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,200 have symbolism woven into what they wear. 450 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,700 And so, do spiritual leaders across different ritual 451 00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:05,600 Traditions. They have embroidery and 452 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,400 different colors, mean, different things, and And so I 453 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,500 think any human who's managing people and leading people. 454 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:18,600 I think somewhat I think people have a vision maybe of starting 455 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,800 a start-up and kind of have the long-term game in mind. 456 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,400 These are interesting things to think about and I don't think 457 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,000 you can just show up on day one and say, here's our symbols. 458 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,700 Here's our ethos, let's go. But rather, it's like it's in a, 459 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:33,700 it's small. It's kind of like the idea of an 460 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:36,300 inside joke. It's like the intimacy there 461 00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:39,800 with like a Or a friend or a small group. 462 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:42,100 There's little Traditions, that kind of naturally emerge and 463 00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:43,600 it's like, who I really enjoy that. 464 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,900 Whoo, that was really funny who we really had a good time 465 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:48,300 grabbing beers after work Monday. 466 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:49,700 Let's do that. Every first Monday. 467 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:53,800 And these rituals in these symbols and these Declarations 468 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,900 of what Define you somewhat mysteriously, emerged 469 00:26:56,900 --> 00:26:59,400 organizations that believe in what they're up to. 470 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:03,400 And so that was a lot but it's very interesting to me and I 471 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,000 think people who are interested in shepherding, humans should 472 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,000 keep an eye out for these. These little pockets of meaning 473 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:12,500 and cultivate that, and encourage that, because that's 474 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,100 what keeps people together. I think an oriented towards 475 00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:18,600 something really meaningful. I think that's an interesting 476 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,900 idea to, in light of how much the pandemic has influenced, how 477 00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:28,200 people work. And by that, I mean people are 478 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,600 remotely on-boarded, they might never meet their team in person. 479 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,700 So, the ritual of, how do you bring somebody into our 480 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:37,900 organization when we are fully distributed? 481 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:41,700 For the rituals and the, you know, like what does it mean to 482 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:47,100 have symbols, or to have ideas? That kind of connect us all when 483 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:53,900 we are all over the world, because I think it's, you know, 484 00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:56,500 part of what you're mentioning. And I think part of the way that 485 00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:58,700 functions when you have a physical location, that 486 00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:03,000 everybody goes to that, you can physically design the space so 487 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,300 that everybody's seeing this like the same literal thing when 488 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:10,300 they walk in. It can provide a message or 489 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,400 reminder of why we're all here and what we care about. 490 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:18,500 And I think that will look different in a world of work 491 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:23,100 where everything is always distributed. 492 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,800 Because I think that your point to is that humans function in a 493 00:28:27,808 --> 00:28:30,500 certain way we can look across all these traditions and notice 494 00:28:30,500 --> 00:28:35,100 some, some common functional, things about how you respond, 495 00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:39,400 and what does that mean for? Or us as people who work 496 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800 together and as in the manager seat, what does that mean for 497 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,200 you? As you think about how to create 498 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,300 a sense of team and connection and cohesion given the 499 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,900 parameters? Not working. 500 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,800 Yeah, yeah, that's that's a tough one. 501 00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:01,200 That's a tough one for sure. I think, I think of what would 502 00:29:01,208 --> 00:29:04,800 be interesting to me to think more about other historical 503 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,500 examples of organizations that have been distributed, like, the 504 00:29:07,508 --> 00:29:11,100 special forces in the military. They have a very distinctly 505 00:29:11,100 --> 00:29:14,800 different in some, in some ways. A different is distinctly 506 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,300 different Outlook and attitude, you know, they, they get 507 00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:19,400 permission to grow these big old beards and they don't get 508 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,200 haircuts and, and Anyway, I would have to think more about 509 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,600 that, but that's a really, it's a really interesting idea of how 510 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,500 to get people to still feel connected and like they belong 511 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,900 in a way where you're distributed and kind of out 512 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,000 flying solo, which is tremendously difficult. 513 00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,900 What is your current people manager situation? 514 00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:42,500 Look like like, do you have direct reports right now? 515 00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:46,000 I probably shouldn't answer that for one of my team's. 516 00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:50,700 That's they're actually I we don't know. 517 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:55,000 It's and it's and it's a, it's a secret, it's private, it's 518 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,400 private. Yeah, yeah I can, I can fill you 519 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,200 in later why? It's yeah, I feel. 520 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,700 I'm sorry. That I can't tell you more on 521 00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:08,000 why that's okay. The other startup that I'm at 522 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,900 where this loose gaggle of humans trying to prevent the 523 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,500 boat from sinking. Mmm. 524 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,100 Yeah. Well, so this is interesting to 525 00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:21,900 me, too, so you worked in very early stage startups. 526 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,500 Hmm, you've also worked in global technology organizations. 527 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,700 And you've also worked with in the military which as you 528 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:32,500 mentioned is like an institution. 529 00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:34,800 That's been a long around for a really long time. 530 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,200 So these are All different kinds of organizations of people doing 531 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,800 work together. Mmm. 532 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,400 Yeah. Certainly what, what have you 533 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,800 observed to be like in your own experience of working with 534 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,400 people and managing people what has been the most difficult 535 00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:01,100 lesson for you to learn? It was I think I think it was a 536 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:07,300 well I'll tell you what comes to the surface right now is You 537 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:10,900 know, I have challenges with my ego like we all do and you know, 538 00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:15,000 I want to be seen, I want to be successful and competent, but I 539 00:31:15,008 --> 00:31:19,600 think the best leaders and managers I think you have to 540 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,700 realize that the deliberate as opposed to its being something 541 00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:28,200 that happens to you. The conscious choice to become 542 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,300 invisible to me, feels deeply true. 543 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,200 Where you want to elevate the people you influence and the 544 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,400 people who are in charge of and it's like praise in public and 545 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:46,000 criticize and private and behind-the-scenes be an advocate 546 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,000 for their promotion, to the next level. 547 00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:50,800 You know, I think about the deliberate decision to be 548 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,300 invisible which is totally contradictory to your ego, but 549 00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:57,500 it comes but it comes from a recognition that you have a 550 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:00,700 great responsibility as a manager and as a leader and it's 551 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:02,900 no longer about you. It's like A parent and now that 552 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:06,200 I'm a parent, but from what I hear, it's no longer about you, 553 00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:11,100 you know, it's about how can you desire the best for others and 554 00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:13,700 try to act on that? For me? 555 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:18,100 That was hard because when I was just getting my feet wet you 556 00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,600 know went to Military College and you get put in these like 557 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,100 simulated leadership environments. 558 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,100 And I mean it's not simulated, it's real leadership and 559 00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,700 management but it's while you're at school within a student body, 560 00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:32,500 and I really had a lot of shortcomings and really, I don't 561 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,400 know, I wanted attention, and I wanted recognition that I wanted 562 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:39,000 to be seen as a good leader, and I think that can lead you down 563 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,900 the wrong path. But I think when you're able to 564 00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:44,100 realize that the calling of a great manager, and a great 565 00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,500 leader is to elevate the people either, you're in charge of 566 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:51,500 formally or the people, you have influence over informally, the 567 00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,600 joy that comes from that is when you actually make that 568 00:32:54,600 --> 00:33:00,000 connection and to me, it feels like dancing and it feels to me 569 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,200 like, you know, we all Different mental models for describing the 570 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,700 world. One mental model is like, 571 00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:08,400 masculine energy and feminine energy and for a while I was 572 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,200 really big into swing dancing and salsa dancing and learning 573 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,300 how to lead, like, literally lead on a dance floor. 574 00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:21,900 And you know, the best followers have this really inspiring 575 00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:25,100 expectation that you'll take care of the leadership business. 576 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,800 They're not there to make a decision per se. 577 00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:32,800 They're there to, to build On the base and the structure 578 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:39,000 you've provided to to to make the show and so women, who and 579 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,900 this isn't to get stereotypical per se. 580 00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:46,400 But it's hard to describe how satisfying that is because when 581 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,400 you're dancing with a woman who's really, really good, 582 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600 follower who totally trust. Like, you could just, you could 583 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,200 feel it in a frame of someone, you're dancing with, there's 584 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,500 women, who and meant, it could be meant to write, like, I'm 585 00:33:57,500 --> 00:33:59,300 really trying to avoid stereotype, but there's people 586 00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:02,500 who even as a follower there, a little bit rich, It and they 587 00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:04,300 think you're going to do this move and they like move into 588 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:05,900 that move. And you're like, ah, crap. 589 00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:07,700 Like, is it me? Is it them? 590 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:10,500 There's some clashing. But then there's some followers 591 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:14,600 for just like, I'm so here, like let's see where this goes and 592 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,000 you gently nudge them in One Direction. 593 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,199 Like ooh, that feels good, like let's see where that goes. 594 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,800 Let's see where that goes. And then it's like magical 595 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:25,500 dance, he emerges. And as the lead, you're just 596 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,400 building the groundwork the infrastructure. 597 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,199 Now, of course there's some exceptions but the fall Follows 598 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:39,100 get the joy of the fancy footwork and the spinning dress 599 00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:43,500 and making it just look good. And so I think when you can when 600 00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:46,600 you can be invisible, So does when you can choose to be 601 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,300 invisible deliberately, it's easy for one's ego, to think 602 00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:53,000 that you won't be able to shine. But you shine in a subtler way 603 00:34:53,007 --> 00:34:57,000 that is really meaningful and really rich when the people that 604 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,800 you're supporting and that you're leading, then get to be 605 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,100 the star of the show and you Like, you are lucky to be a part 606 00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:05,900 of that. Love that example. 607 00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:14,300 Oh, that's a fun one and it's a terrible feeling to feel 608 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:21,900 invisible and not seen when it feels imposed on you. but in 609 00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:25,900 make, but in realizing the upside in that and making others 610 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:31,400 feel seen and drawing back, you realize, I don't know, it feels 611 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,300 Noble, you know, when you're driving a shit when you're 612 00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:39,000 driving a ship, You know, there's a ton of sensors on 613 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,200 those things and there's a lot going on. 614 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,200 You have to make sure you don't run aground. 615 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,900 If the area is shallow, you have to make sure that the fluid 616 00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:50,600 levels are distributed. So the thing doesn't topple 617 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,800 over, you have to make sure you know, the status of The Radars 618 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,700 and there's a lot going on and so the kind of the highest 619 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:01,000 qualification you can you can get for driving. 620 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,000 It takes a long time is called officer of the deck where you're 621 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,200 like a representative of The captain, you're kind of running 622 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,700 the show. There's nothing more gratifying 623 00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:11,300 than when you can. You have prop. 624 00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:14,100 It depends on the kind of ship but you have roughly eight. 625 00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:17,200 People, one person's literally driving up the steering wheel. 626 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,500 Another person's controlling the throttle. 627 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,900 Another team of two or three people is consistently, charting 628 00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,700 your location. You have look outs who are using 629 00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:29,500 binoculars to augment your electronic sensors so it's this 630 00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:33,000 Orchestra and when you can step back and the orchestra is just 631 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,600 performing you're like this is this is amazing. 632 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,300 I heard a great quote in college that never left me. 633 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:42,400 Which is you've succeeded as a leader when your team can 634 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,000 perform as well with you as they can without you. 635 00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:50,000 That's your job. You mentioned before to, what 636 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,000 advice would you give to a new manager? 637 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,100 And at the time just a few minute moments ago, you said oh 638 00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:01,600 you know I'd tell them to just show up and I'm curious as we've 639 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,300 been talking. What if anything else has 640 00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:08,900 emerged around the advice that you would give to a new manager? 641 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,800 The story that comes to Makino. David Goggins, he's like a super 642 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,600 athlete is ultra marathons and stuff. 643 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,400 He's a Intense guy. He's on Instagram and so forth 644 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,500 and the reason he comes to mind is, well, I'm going to weave 645 00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:26,900 together a couple different stories. 646 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:29,300 There is a book I was reading recently to had such great 647 00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:30,900 advice. I wish I had heard like 10 years 648 00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:35,100 ago, which is Be careful who you share. 649 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:40,400 Good news with Because some people can see it as a threat to 650 00:37:40,408 --> 00:37:44,200 their relationship with you, or their career, or whatever, and 651 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,300 also be careful who you share bad news with, because you don't 652 00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:49,900 want to be caught up in gossipers for people who think 653 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:52,900 they're better than you. But the best humans out there 654 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,500 only want the best for you, in both cases. 655 00:37:55,900 --> 00:38:00,200 And so David Goggins is really, really talented. 656 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:04,100 I think he's a former Navy SEAL and I just saw the most 657 00:38:04,100 --> 00:38:07,400 positive, you know, he answers questions sometimes. 658 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,600 And I think there's a feeling sometimes because of the 659 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,100 negative people in our life, that people who are successful, 660 00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:17,300 don't want to see you succeed or like they're hoarding the 661 00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:19,300 success, or like it's a limited pie. 662 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:22,900 And that's not true at all of the best humans. 663 00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:25,700 The best humans, realize that like, your success is my 664 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:27,700 success. And my success is your success. 665 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,000 I failed spectacularly as a manager and a leader and it was 666 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,800 extraordinarily challenging, but the moments, I think that I 667 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,900 learned and grew and had a positive impact, made those 668 00:38:41,900 --> 00:38:46,800 challenges worth it. And so showing up is my 669 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,100 invitation because you're going to get knocked down and you're 670 00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:52,800 going to Ruffle feathers or you're going to feel insecure. 671 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,200 You're going to make a bad decision. 672 00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:58,300 And it's the showing up the next day and trying. 673 00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:00,800 Again, we're all the values to be gained from the experience I 674 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,300 think. And so when I was a runner in 675 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:07,300 high school, I was always trying to get people to run. 676 00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:10,500 Cross-country, of course, it was difficult and hard, but that's 677 00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:12,600 not where the value was. So I was not interested in 678 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,800 telling people how hard it was. I was interested in telling them 679 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,400 like how it worthy it was how fun it was, and how awesome team 680 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,200 dinners were and the joy of finishing a race and putting all 681 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,800 your energy into it, you know. So like being manager can be 682 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,400 super difficult. But like that's not to 683 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,000 intimidate anybody. And so I would say keep showing 684 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,700 up and then for your team, the other phrase that comes to mind 685 00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:39,000 for me, is be consistently present because people need to 686 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,900 be able to rely on. You not to have the right 687 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,800 answers, but to be there with them in the Foxhole, so to speak 688 00:39:43,900 --> 00:39:45,800 and to say like, hey we can figure this out together. 689 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,300 Hey, like, I have total faith in your skills. 690 00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:53,000 I'm lucky to have you on my team and people need, I think 691 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,300 consistent presence in their life of people. 692 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,400 They're depending on thank you so much for being with us today 693 00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:01,900 and sharing your stories and your perspective. 694 00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:06,500 I love all of these different nuggets that you drop throughout 695 00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:10,800 our conversation and I know that sometimes you also write online 696 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,700 and you share your thoughts and things. 697 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600 So if any of our listeners wanted to follow you or find any 698 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,600 of your writing or if you have a presence online, where would 699 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,400 they go? I have very little presence. 700 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:30,400 I like you're like no. No, no, I haven't written a have 701 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,600 so many Unwritten essays inside of me. 702 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,700 I haven't I haven't written in a very long time. 703 00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:39,600 I don't write consistently as much as I would like to, but if 704 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,200 anything resonated or people want to connect on anything that 705 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,500 seemed interesting. I'm on LinkedIn and I check that 706 00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:51,800 regularly. Can you tell us how to spell 707 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,700 your name? Yeah. 708 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:55,500 But just so people. Yeah. 709 00:40:55,500 --> 00:41:01,500 I mean sure my LinkedIn URL is just, you know, linkedin.com, /i 710 00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:11,400 n /a h, e SC, h, a Heche. Amazing. 711 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,100 They can send me a message. If anything it's interesting or 712 00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:16,900 whatever. I'm happy to connect with 713 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,700 people. Thank you so much. 714 00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:22,100 It's been yeah this is to have you. 715 00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:24,300 Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thanks for the invitation. 716 00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:31,100 Do you want personal confidential? 717 00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:34,300 Help with your situation at work, I offer one-on-one 718 00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:37,900 coaching and can help you overcome challenges reach your 719 00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:40,300 goals and become a more effective. 720 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,200 Effective leader to schedule a consult. 721 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,200 Go to my website. Kim nickel.com coaching and 722 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,500 we'll schedule time to talk about what's going on with you 723 00:41:51,700 --> 00:41:54,000 and how I can help talk to you soon.