1
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,320
Welcome to the new Manager 
podcast. 

2
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:16,680
I'm your host, Kim Nichol. 
Hello and welcome. 

3
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,240
I'm glad you're here and I hope 
you're doing well. 

4
00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:24,320
I have been thinking a lot this 
summer about being a new manager

5
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:30,120
and how it is not just about 
being a first time manager or 

6
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:36,680
being new to managing a specific
team, but it also points to is 

7
00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,600
there a new way that we can do 
things? 

8
00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,600
This idea of beginner's mind, 
you know, sometimes we assume 

9
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,400
that the way things have always 
been done are the way things 

10
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,240
need to be done in perpetuity 
forever. 

11
00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,200
And when we take a step back and
say, can I look at this with new

12
00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,560
eyes? 
Can I approach this from a 

13
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,880
different angle? 
Can I try something that maybe I

14
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,240
haven't tried before, but maybe 
now it's time to try this new 

15
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,640
approach. 
That is where we can create some

16
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,160
really powerful changes, not 
just in the way that we work 

17
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:21,880
with others, but in the way that
we experience our career and our

18
00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,360
professional lives. 
You know, so much about being on

19
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:31,840
a leadership journey is also 
about your own growth and the 

20
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,040
way that you are going to evolve
and change over time. 

21
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,000
You know, for example, when you 
become an individual contributor

22
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,960
and you start doing something, 
very often the job is to learn 

23
00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:46,120
to be really good at that 
specific thing. 

24
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,280
But when you become a manager, 
that's no longer the goal by 

25
00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,160
which you're measured. 
Now it's about how do you 

26
00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:00,440
facilitate or enable other 
people to work together 

27
00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:06,200
effectively in order to 
accomplish a bigger collective 

28
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,360
goal. 
And sometimes that's the, you 

29
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,680
know, one of the hardest 
transitions when we start moving

30
00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:19,080
into leadership is you have to 
be willing to let go of holding 

31
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,000
tight to that identity of I am 
good at this specific thing 

32
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:29,560
because now in this new role, 
your job is to be new to that 

33
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,320
job. 
And you will be new and maybe 

34
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,720
you won't feel like, oh, I'm not
good at delegating. 

35
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:42,000
I'm not good at advocating. 
I'm not good at pushing back or 

36
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,400
negotiating when there are 
competing priorities. 

37
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,240
And different people are 
demanding different things of me

38
00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,080
and my team. 
And that willingness to be 

39
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,600
uncomfortable with the growing 
pains that you're going through 

40
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,320
is one of the challenges that I 
want to speak to and just 

41
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,440
normalize. 
And part of that is going to be 

42
00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,920
our episode today. 
I wanted to share with you a 

43
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:13,880
clip from one of my most 
powerful and popular workshops, 

44
00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,520
which is this, this teaching on 
the gentle no and how to say no,

45
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,360
how to set boundaries when you 
are someone who cares deeply and

46
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,920
you don't want to disappoint 
people and you identify as a 

47
00:03:27,920 --> 00:03:31,640
hard worker. 
And so saying no can feel so 

48
00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:37,000
counterintuitive because when 
you have built success in your 

49
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,800
career or in your life by being 
very self reliant, by rolling up

50
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,640
your sleeves and saying, yes, I 
will get into this with you, I 

51
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,320
can help. 
When you've maybe had to work 

52
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,640
extra hard because of the 
particular circumstances in your

53
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:59,840
own life, then the idea of 
saying no to things, it's just 

54
00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,240
not a habit you've built. 
It's kind of like a, you know, a

55
00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,680
muscle that is there, it's just 
underdeveloped because you 

56
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,000
haven't used it. 
Maybe you haven't had to use it.

57
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,800
And so learning then how to 
access and develop that skill 

58
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,040
can feel weird. 
And when there's a lot of 

59
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,760
pressure, the thing we do is the
thing we know how to do, which 

60
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,280
is the thing we've done in the 
past. 

61
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,440
But if you want to make an 
intentional change, like if 

62
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,840
you're thinking of your career 
and your own personal growth and

63
00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:38,800
professional development, and if
you really want to kind of take 

64
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,480
that in hand and say, OK, I am 
now in a place where I must 

65
00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:50,280
learn to be more comfortable 
with saying no to things, then 

66
00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:55,320
you can start to create that 
change in very intentional ways,

67
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,560
very deliberate ways. 
I was talking with a friend of 

68
00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,680
mine and we talked, we were 
talking the other day about 

69
00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:06,200
making gentle changes so that 
you can fail gently. 

70
00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,680
I love that concept so much 
because what happens when we 

71
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:15,800
resist the change or when we 
resist learning the new skill is

72
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,800
we tend to let the pressure 
build and then it really starts 

73
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,640
to feel like maybe the wheels 
are falling off or we start to 

74
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,960
really lose our patience and get
very, very frustrated. 

75
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:31,400
And instead we can choose, OK, 
let me make some gentle 

76
00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,600
adjustments, some dental 
changes, knowing that I might 

77
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,920
not get it right at first. 
So let me fail gently. 

78
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:42,760
Let me let me kind of struggle 
with this in small ways and also

79
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:48,080
build some small wins that can 
be a much more sustainable and a

80
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:54,240
much more inviting and kind of 
productive way to grow skills 

81
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,040
and to grow a new mindset and a 
new way of doing things. 

82
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,040
So kind of within that context, 
I wanted to share this clip with

83
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:03,080
you. 
It's about 10. 

84
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,040
No, not 10 minutes. 
No, it's about 4 1/2 minutes and

85
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,520
I'll talk you through, you know,
some aspects of what, like why 

86
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,960
we ruminate. 
So if you sometimes find 

87
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,080
yourself laying awake at night 
and you're replaying a 

88
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,240
conversation in your mind over 
and over again and it's a 

89
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,760
conversation that hasn't 
happened yet, you know, you're 

90
00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,120
imagining if I say this, they'll
feel that. 

91
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,120
If I do this, they'll sell this,
they'll say this, then I'll feel

92
00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,440
bad. 
And then when you when you kind 

93
00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,360
of get into that loop, this is 
going, you know, this is going 

94
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,200
to help you to understand what 
is it that's driving that, why 

95
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,640
is that happening and give you 
an approach as sort of a 

96
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,480
framework for what to try 
instead. 

97
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,480
And especially whenever I'm 
teaching on communication 

98
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,680
skills, I want to remind you 
that these are skills not just 

99
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,080
for your work environment, but 
also for your life. 

100
00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:07,200
And sometimes it's actually 
easier to practice outside of 

101
00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,800
work with other people who you 
know and love or just, you know,

102
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:17,040
other people who are in your 
world, start practicing them in 

103
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,280
low stakes environments. 
So you start to build that sense

104
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,200
of trust and efficacy and that 
sense of, OK, I know how to do 

105
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,520
this here. 
Now I can bring it into the 

106
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,040
workplace with people that I 
work with every day. 

107
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,080
Or maybe things feel a little 
bit more high stakes. 

108
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,800
And you know, when you're 
thinking about how do I bring 

109
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,520
this skill of the gentle know 
and how do I start thinking 

110
00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:46,240
differently about why am I 
deciding to say yes to things? 

111
00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,000
Am I overextending myself out of
habit? 

112
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,120
Am I overextending myself and 
over committing because I just I

113
00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,840
so identify with being a hard 
worker? 

114
00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,680
Yes, I can help you. 
Like, is that what's going on? 

115
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,880
When you start to understand 
some of what's going on behind 

116
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,360
behind the scenes in your 
decision making and behind the 

117
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:12,520
choices you're making, it can 
then help you to make a plan for

118
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:18,600
how do you want to respond in 
the workplace when someone makes

119
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,240
a request of you or when you 
start to see that you've got 

120
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,440
competing priorities because you
know for sure that's going to 

121
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,880
happen. 
And so this will give you a bit 

122
00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,120
of a, and a way to think of how 
can I be prepared for that 

123
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:38,600
situation so that I'm not simply
responding out of habit, but I'm

124
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,600
responding from a very 
intentional way. 

125
00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,680
And anytime we're choosing 
something new, expect it might 

126
00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:50,200
feel kind of weird, which is why
we want to plan for it ahead of 

127
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,880
time and imagine us being able 
to do that. 

128
00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,560
Otherwise, the muscle memory 
kicks in, especially when we've 

129
00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,560
got a lot of things going on. 
It's always easier to do the 

130
00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:03,200
thing we've done in the past 
than to do the new thing. 

131
00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,600
And so this one will really help
you. 

132
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,880
I know you're going to love it. 
Have a listen. 

133
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,160
Oh, and if it helps you and if 
you are just a fan of this show,

134
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,040
could you do me a favor and 
leave a review or a rating on 

135
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,480
the whichever podcast platform 
you listen to because that will 

136
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,840
help. 
OK, so here we go. 

137
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,880
And I know you're going to love 
it. 

138
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,320
So here's what's happening. 
We've got you. 

139
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,800
You've got some feelings, you've
got some thoughts. 

140
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,080
We have this other person, this 
other person that you meet is 

141
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,560
going to ask you for something. 
They've got a request. 

142
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,200
The first thing out of your 
mouth might be, why yes, I'd be 

143
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,120
happy to take that on because 
that is the habit you've built. 

144
00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,120
And then you're like, why do I 
have all of this work to do? 

145
00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,400
All right, Because I said yes to
everything. 

146
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,160
It's like, all right. 
Like that's the habit I've 

147
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,360
built. 
I'm so used to doing that. 

148
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,760
Especially if you feel under 
pressure or if you feel any kind

149
00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,160
of insecurity flair, then we're 
going to try to create 

150
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,560
connection by saying yes. 
It's a human pattern habit. 

151
00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:21,760
It's OK, but we just want to 
understand like that's what's 

152
00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:23,320
happening. 
I'm trying to find connection. 

153
00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,880
I'm trying to be helpful. 
I'm trying to, you know, 

154
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,240
maintain rapport with this 
person. 

155
00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:32,120
So your first guess might be 
yes. 

156
00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,240
And then you go into your mind 
and you're like, why did they 

157
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,480
ask me that? 
Can't they see I'm busy? 

158
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,720
What should I have done instead?
And so you can get into this 

159
00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:45,120
really exhausting loop where 
you're feeling something and 

160
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,880
then you're thinking something. 
And this is what the rumination 

161
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,840
is when you're lying awake at 
night and you're feeling bad and

162
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,440
you're thinking about what 
should I say? 

163
00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,480
What should it be different? 
What if they do this with you 

164
00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,840
like you're having all these 
opinions about them. 

165
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:06,000
We actually don't know anything 
that's happening in their mind, 

166
00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,320
and we don't know anything 
that's happening in their 

167
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,960
emotions. 
But we've got lots of ideas 

168
00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,640
based on our past experience, 
based on our cultural context, 

169
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,880
and based on, you know, all of 
these other kind of invisible 

170
00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:24,800
anticipations. 
So this is what also, I guess 

171
00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:30,080
we're very exhausting and why it
is so important to develop the 

172
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,600
skill of the gentle know. 
And so you want to think about, 

173
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,000
you know that in the future 
someone is going to make a 

174
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,480
request of you and you will have
a choice. 

175
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:48,840
How do you want to respond? 
I encourage you to think ahead. 

176
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,280
What is the relationship? 
What is the situation where you 

177
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:59,120
want to feel more prepared to 
give a gentle no? 

178
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:06,800
Oh, you want me to join this, 
you know, additional like work 

179
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,360
committee to do extra additional
work for this thing? 

180
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,360
I love that you asked me. 
I am a gentle no. 

181
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,520
I am a gentle no. 
I love that you asked me and 

182
00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:24,760
part of this too. 
We don't have time to get into 

183
00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,840
all of the details, but one of 
the things I'm hoping that you 

184
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:34,280
see is the way that you feel 
about your ability to say no is 

185
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:38,480
so tied in to how you make 
decisions. 

186
00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,280
And a lot of times the question 
around saying no is actually a 

187
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,280
question of where am I making 
this decision from? 

188
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,440
So for example, for the person, 
I think it was Judy, who was 

189
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,480
saying it's just faster if I do.
It takes longer if I explain it.

190
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,480
But then what you're deciding is
you're deciding that you're not 

191
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,360
going to develop the skill of 
training up or helping other 

192
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,320
people learn how to do it 
themselves. 

193
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,880
You're also now choosing to be 
like the bottleneck rather than 

194
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,960
realizing at some point your job
is not to be the one who does 

195
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,520
things the best. 
Your job is to make decisions 

196
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,360
about who's going to do what and
when and why. 

197
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,800
You might assign a task to 
someone who's not that great at 

198
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,400
it because that is the only way 
they're going to get better at 

199
00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,160
it. 
So you might say no, like I'm, 

200
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,960
you know, I'm not going to take 
this on. 

201
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,480
I'm going to assign it to this 
person because there's a 

202
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:41,280
strategic reason why I'm going 
to say no and then do it for 

203
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,360
this other person. 
Similar to around competing 

204
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:49,280
priorities, there will always be
impeding priorities. 

205
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,880
Always. 
And your job is often to make 

206
00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:00,440
decisions about that. 
What will be the basis of your 

207
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,680
decision when there are 
competing priorities, and how 

208
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:10,640
will you communicate that when 
you're more effective at work, 

209
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,960
you're happier in your life, and
when you're happier in your 

210
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,040
life, you're more effective at 
work? 

211
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,200
I can help. 
Go to my website, kimnickel.com 

212
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:22,560
and sign up for a coaching 
consult. 

213
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,320
It can get better.