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Welcome to the new manager 
podcast. 

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I'm your host, Kim nickel. 
Hi, welcome back. 

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Last week I was talking about 
feedback and then I taught a 

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workshop on it and I have to 
tell you it was so much fun 

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because I feel like feedback is 
one of these topics at work that

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nobody gets training on like 
everyone experiences it first by

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being on the receiving end of it
and then at some point as part 

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of your job. 
It becomes necessary to give 

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other people a feedback and so 
we all learn just on the Fly by 

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being alive. 
And when we get together and 

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talk about what is difficult, 
what is working. 

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There's a surprising amount of 
common ground, but also so many 

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insights, it is such a cool 
thing to talk about. 

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And one thing that came up was 
the At that the feedback 

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conversation really is a micro 
climate or you can think of it 

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as a specific venue for other 
kinds of things to happen. 

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So it's where trust happens. 
It's where leadership happens. 

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It's where what is this 
relationship really about 

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happens? 
There is so much that can happen

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within a feedback conversation 
and for you too. 

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As the person who's giving 
feedback. 

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It's also a call to reflect upon
and develop your own 

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communication skills as well as 
your own self awareness skills. 

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So I have been feeling really 
excited about feedback and I had

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a few other ideas that came out 
through the conversation with my

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students in the workshop that I 
wanted to share with you. 

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Oh, and one other thing, what 
was really cool too? 

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Is that not everyone? 
In my workshop has direct 

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reports and this is also true of
my listeners. 

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So, and and my students, not 
everyone has a direct report 

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because being a manager Moving 
into this manager skill. 

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Set doesn't always happen when 
you have direct reports. 

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There is so much of managing by 
influence that happens in the 

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workplace. 
You might be someone who manages

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volunteers, who is a coordinator
of volunteers, you might be 

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someone who's responsible for 
handling the intern summer 

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program. 
You might be a product manager 

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or an office manager, or you 
might just need to manage. 

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Judge your boss. 
The idea of managing up is a 

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thing and it is a way of 
managing people even if that's 

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not a part of your title. 
For most of us managing people 

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is something that we face all 
the time whether or not we think

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of it that way. 
So a couple other ideas to share

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with you about feedback. 
Number one, ask yourself, How do

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you feel about feedback? 
Both giving it to others and 

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also receiving it. 
This was a really interesting 

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question in our workshop with 
everyone is that giving it 

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receiving, it everyone has had 
different experience of it. 

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Some of it positive, some of it,
very uncomfortable, but get 

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really clear for yourself about 
how you feel about it because 

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this will help to guide you in 
where you need to grow. 

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And especially around things 
you've been avoiding or things 

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that make you uncomfortable, 
which is a normal human thing. 

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So it's totally fine. 
Especially because feedback is 

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so much of a relationship and 
communication based skill. 

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And a lot of people like that is
not the thing. 

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They're good at, it's not bad, 
it's just true. 

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So, I know people and they are 
really good at their core thing,

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you know, it's designed its 
Gramming its sales, it's 

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whatever their core thing is, 
they're so good at that, but the

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moment they then have this, this
responsibility of giving 

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feedback they're a little bit 
out of their depth of Genius. 

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They're a little bit uncertain 
about how to do that. 

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Well and also because, you know,
it does not, it is not fun to 

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feel incompetent at something, 
especially if you are known for 

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being highly competent, at the 
thing, you're really good at I 

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just want to acknowledge that, 
that the more you can become 

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aware of, where do you feel 
uncomfortable about feedback, 

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whether you're giving it to 
somebody or even if you're 

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receiving it? 
Take a moment to reflect on this

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maybe Journal about it or have a
conversation with someone. 

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You trust just to clarify in 
your own mind. 

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Like what is your current 
relationship to feedback? 

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Like that will give you some 
clues about where you'll need to

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work in order to develop the 
skill. 

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Okay? 
Number two, I think in the last 

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episode, we talked about no 
brutal honesty and no sugar 

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coating, right? 
Neither of Those are helpful. 

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We don't need brutality. 
We don't need to cover our 

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message. 
With all of these nice things to

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try to control how the other 
person will feel. 

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And I wanted to add one more 
thing to that list, which is no 

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sandwiches. 
And this is a reference, of 

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course, to the feedback 
sandwich, which goes like this 

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first. 
I'll tell you something good. 

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Second, I'll tell you something 
bad. 

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And third, I'll tell you 
something good again or 

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sometimes the people feel it as 
a compliment criticism 

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compliment. 
Hey, I wanted to tell you a 

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really good job on that project.
Now there are a few things that 

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you need to change but overall 
you're doing a really great job.

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Now on the surface, this 
framework is not a bad thing and

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there will be times when it can 
be useful and part of the Idea. 

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Is that we know that the human 
brain is really uncomfortable 

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with anything that feels like a 
threat. 

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So when we're offering a 
corrective feedback or feed that

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that might be perceived as a 
criticism, Rosa threat, we want 

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to give the brain. 
Something a little bit more 

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inviting something, that'll keep
it relaxed and feeling good. 

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So, we offer, positive feedback 
first but what becomes 

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problematic if you have been on 
the receiving end of these, 

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Feedback sandwiches. 
Then, you know that after a 

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while it just feels like a 
routine, it doesn't feel 

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genuine. 
And what my students have told 

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me and I've experienced this 
too, is that it's like, you can 

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see it coming. 
And at this thought comes into 

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the head of, oh, you're only 
telling me this nice thing in 

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order to tell me what you really
mean, which is a mean thing. 

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Like you're really just cloaking
a criticism like with this 

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compliment it almost becomes 
like sugar coating again. 

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And what happens then is that 
trust gets undermined and people

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aren't receptive, and that just 
becomes kind of this theater 

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that we go through, in an 
attempt to give helpful 

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feedback. 
So I find that if you over rely 

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on this sandwich approach, 
everything that you offer that's

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positive gets discounted people 
don't fully believe it. 

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And they will sort of brace 
believing like okay here comes 

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this negative feedback and they 
immediately start to get guarded

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and kind of withdraw. 
So be aware that this can happen

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and be selective about when you 
use this, sometimes it's useful,

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but not always much like 
anything and part of growing as 

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a person and as a leader, is 
beginning to develop that 

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discernment. 
When does this approach? 

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Or when does this a tool become 
helpful? 

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And when is it not? 
So if you use the sandwich, a 

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lot, don't worry about it. 
You're not a bad person. 

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A lot of people teach this as 
the way to do it, but consider 

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alternatives will talk about 
some of those, a bit later, but 

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just put the sandwich down. 
Okay, now, another question to 

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ask yourself, what do you want 
to be different because of this 

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feedback? 
What do you want to be 

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different? 
What do you want to change? 

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Because you are giving this 
feedback and this one is 

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important because it also gets 
to like what is the big picture 

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what is it that that you are 
hoping will be different because

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you tell them whatever you're 
going to tell them sometimes 

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when you ask that it will help 
you to clarify. 

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What is it that we really need 
to talk about here. 

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What is it? 
That really matters? 

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Be aware. 
What is it that you want to be? 

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Different because of this and 
the more you can get clear on 

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what the behavior is like what 
is the thing that they do that 

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you would like to be different 
that can also be so helpful in 

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thinking through what is the 
conversation you want to have? 

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Because asking someone to change
a behavior is really different 

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than asking someone to be a 
different person. 

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And sometimes there will be 
personality conflict or 

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friction, but if you're giving 
someone feedback because you're 

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hoping to change who they are 
being that, Does not always 

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work. 
So well, and as I'm saying this,

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there's one example, I think I 
can offer you. 

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One of my students was talking 
with me about someone, they were

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having a personality conflict 
with and they were giving them 

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feedback and there was 
personality and attitude on the 

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other side, this the my client 
said yeah. 

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This this person is such a, he's
so he's such a complainer, he 

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complains a lot. 
He has this really bad attitude,

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he does his job well but he 
tends to Complain a lot and just

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has this really you know, a bad 
attitude. 

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I just can't get with this guy. 
and I said, well, I'm curious 

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has this always been true or is 
this new and she says, oh, 

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that's always been true. 
Just really bad attitude but the

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clients love him, he does a 
great job. 

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I thought that's very 
interesting. 

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So what is it that you would 
want to change about his 

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behavior? 
And she thought about it and we 

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talked through it and she was 
able to identify something very 

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specific. 
And I said I you know, I have an

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idea that I want to offer and 
it's the possibility that right 

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now. 
Everyone's personality is 

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getting a bit Amplified. 
So the people who bothered you 

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before might bother you even 
more. 

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Because number one, you know, 
we're all a little bit more 

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sensitive or we're all a little 
bit more impatient or we'll all,

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we're just all a little bit. 
War. 

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And also he's also going through
whatever is happening in his 

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life. 
So, whatever his personality is 

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on a regular day. 
There's a good chance that that 

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might get Amplified now and she 
started laughing. 

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She said that is completely 
true. 

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It's like I can totally see 
that. 

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And so the idea then is, you 
know, we don't need to go into a

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feedback conversation, feeling 
extra extra frustrated because 

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this person is just annoying 
with their Tude and the way they

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complain about things, you know,
you can give feedback and have a

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really productive work 
relationship with someone 

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without needing to be their 
friend and without needing them 

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to, like you. 
And what's amazing is that when 

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we give ourselves that 
perspective, it actually creates

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a lot more relaxation. 
It's like, oh yes, this is this 

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person. 
They complain a lot. 

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Maybe complaining is their 
favorite thing. 

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How nice that they have so many 
things to complain about, okay, 

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They do a great job with the 
clients and here's just one 

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thing that I want them to know 
because if they change, that 

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things will be better with the 
clients great and done. 

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And then you can let go of 
feeling. 

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Like if only this person was 
different than we could be 

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friends and get along, it's 
actually okay to not have to get

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along with everybody. 
Of course, as a person like 

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myself were, Harmony is really 
important and I care a lot about

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people getting along, you know, 
I tend to put effort towards 

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that. 
But it's not required. 

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You can still be really 
effective and your team can be 

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high-performing and people can 
enjoy their experience of 

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working, even if you're not all 
best friends and I actually 

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believe that's really healthy 
like it's okay to not be best 

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friends with everybody. 
You work with what I think 

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matters more is respect. 
Appreciation and value people 

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want to feel respected, people 
want their work and their 

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contribution to be appreciated 
and people want to feel valued 

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for who they are and for what 
they bring. 

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So Ask yourself, you know, what 
do you want to be different? 

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Because of this feedback? 
Because of this conversation? 

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Because that can help get a 
little perspective on what is 

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the conversation you actually 
need to have? 

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and the last thing, the fourth 
thing I want to share with you 

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in this episode around feedback 
is this idea of be Discerning 

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rather than comprehensive And 
the question you want to ask is 

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what is useful here? 
And sometimes what I've seen 

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with my students who are new 
managers is because they want to

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do a really thorough job of 
giving feedback to someone. 

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They will give a very 
comprehensive detailed list of 

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all the things that could be 
different. 

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Here are all of the things that 
you could do differently, and I 

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think it would make an 
improvement. 

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And the downside is that the way
Is received by the other person.

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Can be really sort of trust 
breaking, because it can feel 

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like a long list of nitpicking 
really small things that don't 

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necessarily matter and that 
might simply be your preference,

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not actually a deeply useful 
piece of feedback. 

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This also relates to the 
question of what is it that you 

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want to be different because of 
this Feedback. 

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When you know what that is you 
can be Discerning and choose 

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what is the feedback I want to 
communicate to this person that 

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will make the most important 
change and this also becomes 

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important because people's like 
our brains can focus on one 

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thing at a time. 
So for example if you are my 

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manager and you gave me 10 
things that you thought I could 

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be doing differently then it 
would be hard to figure out 

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which of those two Should I 
start with? 

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I feel very overwhelmed which 
one is the most important. 

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How do they all relate together?
The brain doesn't necessarily 

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know where to go and part of the
role of giving feedback 

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especially if you're in a 
manager relationship is you want

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to be thoughtful in. 
What is the thing to focus on 

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first? 
And then let the other ones. 

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Wait, right? 
Like, you don't have to be 

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comprehensive but let people 
know help to prioritize what to 

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work on First and why? 
Right? 

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So different ways of thinking 
about that will also affect the 

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way that you communicate the way
that this person can receive 

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your feedback. 
And also, I mean, always coming 

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from this, this place of service
like the attitude, of the reason

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I'm giving you this feedback is 
because I see something that can

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change, that will be better for 
you and for us, and for the team

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and for the client, like it's 
never coming from this place. 

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Serve you are inadequate. 
That is one of the most painful 

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judgments that we can face and 
it's often one that we carry. 

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Anyways, like if you've ever had
a little voice of self-doubt in 

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the back of your head or if 
you've ever felt like, oh my 

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gosh, people think I'm really 
amazing. 

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But what if I'm not or if you 
feel like, wow, everyone I work 

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with is so incredible and I 
secretly feel like I don't even 

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know if I deserve to be here. 
You Don't know all of the 

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different little quiet, 
undermining, thoughts, that can 

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be happening in people's heads. 
So, when we are giving feedback 

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part of what also becomes useful
is this way of communicating, 

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hey, as a team like we together,
I want to see you succeed. 

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I want to see you do. 
Well, I'm here to help you. 

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I'm going to give you feedback 
that will be most useful because

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That's the kind of person and 
that's the kind of leader that I

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want to be. 
I don't need to weigh you down 

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or burden you with thousand 
things of various importance. 

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So I get a little bit excited, I
believe that relationships, make

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work better or worse, preferably
better. 

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But we've all probably been in 
situations where the lack of 

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trust or the lack of feedback 
has really gotten in the way of 

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being able to work well together
to enjoy the people and the 

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relationships in the work that 
we do. 

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And just to do the best that we 
can. 

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So I hope this has been helpful 
for you. 

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I have some additional workshops
coming up this summer and going 

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forward. 
So go to my website and check 

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them out. 
If you want to join, it would be

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amazing to have you. 
Thanks so much. 

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Thanks for listening. 
Take care. 

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Do you want personal 
confidential help with your 

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00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:28,300
situation at work? 
I offer one-on-one coaching and 

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00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:32,500
can help you overcome challenges
reach your goals and become a 

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00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:36,300
more effective leader to 
schedule a consult. 

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00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:42,600
Go to my website, Kim nickel.com
coaching and we'll schedule time

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00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,400
to talk about what's going on 
with you and how I can help talk

294
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:47,100
to you soon.