Welcome back to Linked by Golf, the podcast exploring the
journeys of people linked by the game.
I'm your host, Ross McGuire, and this week I'm thrilled to bring
you an exclusive interview with Joe Miller, Product Manager at
Dunlop Golf Europe, which was recorded on site at the European
HQ and Custom Fit facility in Asheville.
In this episode, we discussed the level of detail and quality
stricts and put into the build of their clubs and also talk
about some misconceptions that golfers might have about the
Custom Fit journey. Let's get over to Joe today.
I'm here with Joe Miller. Joe, great to see you.
Good to meet you, good to see you.
Absolutely. And you've just got me a really
good tour to the facility here in in Asheville.
So just talk briefly about the reasons for moving to us for
Sally from where you were before an altar.
Yeah. We've been here a few years now
and I still sort of call it the new facility because to me it's
new. We were, we were told, for quite
a few years, yeah, but it was necessity that the brand is
growing, it's getting bigger, the demand for the clubs is
increasing. So there was no choice really.
We liked it where we were, but it just wasn't big enough.
We needed a much bigger workshop, we needed more cells
and we've got more staff administratively.
So we had no choice really. Not too far from where we were
and obviously quite close to the sort of warehouses in
Southampton, things like that as well.
So makes a lot of sense. And also we had to consider the
staff. We really wanted to bring all
the staff across from Alton. So we couldn't go too far
because without the staff there's no company.
So we had to be sure. And we, we offered quite a, an
incentive to come. You know, we really wanted them
to come. So there was, there was
consideration to travelling time and that's the Japanese company
for you all over. You know, the staff are
everything. Without the staff and the
products, there's no company. Those two things married
together and we need good staff. So yeah, virtually all staff
came across, which was brilliant.
That's fantastic. And then yourself talk about
your role here at Shrekson. I'd love to hear more about
that, Joe. Product manager, so quite
wide-ranging. I do a lot of sort of media
stuff with people like yourself, interviews and, but also from a
technical point of view, spec sheets, assisting with the
marketing department on inquiries through social media.
And so most things were all things tech related really.
If it gets to a point, you know, that, that a department is
struggling with it because it might be archive or you know,
some older products, they'll, they'll come to me for a little
bit of help hopefully. And if I'm struggling, I have to
go to Japan or America. So yeah, there's always a way of
finding out what not be able to find out straight away, but
we'll get the answer eventually. And we were talking earlier just
in the warehouse here in the builder facility.
But when you say techs, tech specs, you're talking literally
about all the specs that are on the Cleveland strikes and
website, and you're in charge of making sure those are correct
and keeping them up to date as well.
Yeah, the marketing department put all those assets together
mostly in America. There's a great team and Japan
will compile all our cutting sheets and spec sheets.
But effectively a lot of the proofing is done by myself.
Yes, when we put out a document or a press release, we
obviously, you know, everybody's assuming there could be a typo
or an error somewhere or something gets misprinted.
And that's not something we want to go out to the general public.
We want to release accurate information as quickly as
possible. But more importantly, you know,
when we have a new product range, people, you know, there's
a lot more visibility than there used to be.
Years ago you couldn't see, you know, you couldn't go online and
look at the set of specs for club.
Now you can. People can almost become experts
about golf clubs without ever, you know, being involved with
the golf company or building a Golf Club.
So we really want to be sure that we give relevant
information and it's correct and accurate.
Absolutely. And then with jump straight into
your role here at Trixon and talking about the office.
But what? Be yourself, Joe, How did you
get into the game for the All Star?
Oh. I was just unlucky.
I just played golf as a kid and sort of went up playing to, you
know, county golf, never good enough to sort of play, you
know, as a professional. So the next best thing was
playing golf. And I did some caddying on tour,
which was which was great fun. And I worked for fiction sort of
coming up 20 years now on and off.
And they've been really good to me.
You know, always very sort of malleable, willing to sort of
help out when you know, you've got trials and tribulations at
home. So they've been a fabulous
company. So I hope that I've been a good
employee. I think I'll I'll be here till
till the day I retire, I imagine.
Absolutely. I mean, it's some facility.
It's a great company, it's a brilliant brand and we're just
going through the walkthrough of the facility there and it's
surely everything from start to finish, right.
So I'd love you to start talking about everything that's done
here and all the process that goes into it as well and, and
what things and quality levels are put into the manufacturing
the products. Sure.
From a product point of view, we don't hold any sort of golf
balls or build clubs or bags that we would need a fast
warehouse. So we have a third party
warehouse which holds the house those products.
But from the point of view of custom clubs, everything is in
this building. So that's grip shafts, heads,
fowls, all the necessary ancillary products that you need
to build a Golf Club. So the goods come in and then
obviously they're pipped as you saw on a trolley, they go down
into necessary aisles and then they go through the workshop.
So from a product point of view, it's all custom here and then
administratively it's everything comes from here.
We have our credit control, our marketing teams, demand
planning, Yeah. And our our senior officers are
here as well. So from an admin point of view,
this is the hub and then it's where the magic happens with the
custom clubs as well. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean we have that walkthrough and you know, if you just talk
through the different phases of war goes into building a club
for someone right from the order till it comes here and then what
does team start to go through? That would be great.
Yeah. So it's interesting we have AB2B
platform now where retailers can place the orders or they can
they can e-mail in. We insist on a sort of physical
copy as whether it be digital or, you know, on an e-mail.
The point is that to eliminate mistakes, it's better that way.
You know, the years gone by of someone discussing us back over
the phone. It's just it's not, not the way.
So once we've got the order in, it'll be processed and then
it'll go through the administrative departments and
it'll get to our custom fit department where we have an
administrator who will look at the order and effectively
highlight different parts which will be relevant to the build.
So those relevant points may be the length of the club, the lie,
a grip. This will change the cutting,
the swing weight, multiple, multiple things which can change
it. So we highlight those, those
points on the sheet so that when it goes into the cutting room,
we are fully aware that, you know, the, the guy or the girl
in the cutting room is aware of those necessary changes in set
points on the cutting machine because it affects the length of
the shafts. But anyway, once the admin's
done, it goes on to a trolley and as you saw, it goes up
various aisles. Aisle 1 is thousands of heads,
as you've seen. So each aisle has a, an aisle
location and a pick part number. So they can find the part on the
part number and they can find it on the product, literally the
description on the head like AZX I7.
There is some inscription inside the Hozzle as well as a sort of
backup to say whether it's a standard lie or an upright line.
So from a training point of view, there's there's practices
put in place to ensure that we pick it correctly to start,
because there's a lot of products to pick.
And then we go into the next tile where we pick the shafts
and there's a procedure there to make sure that we get all the
shafts and then they're on the trolley.
They want to align with the with effectively the half inch steps
unless there's a an odd iron out of place like a three and A5
iron and the step pattern all lines up.
So people who are picking are trained to to observe in case
there's anomaly in the box. Then we get down and we pick the
grips round to the back of the workshop and then into the
cutting room and then we sprinkle the goldust on.
And then just talk about some of the options that people can go
for, Joe, in terms of first product and then the custom
options. I mean, we couldn't do them all.
We'd be here here for a lifetime.
But I'd love you to talk about some of those options you know,
from your regular golfer right up to Turpro.
Yeah. I think with the addition of the
new IR and IRHL, we now have sort of completed especially in
the irons and with tricks and irons, a complete lineup of
irons suitable for all types of golfers from aspirational right
through to elite and professionals.
And then obviously we have our other two product lineups with
Zexio and Cleveland. So we can I believe complement
every type of golfer, dexterity and gender obviously as well.
And when you think of products like Zexio, how specific they
are and targeted to a certain type of golfer, lightweight
premium products, as you know, moderate swing speed and lady
golfers are considered very much in that range.
And then obviously the Cleveland range of wedges and putters, you
know, a fantastic array of wedges and it aligns to the
stricts and irons. You know, we have a weds lined
up which we can we can accommodate all type of golfers
like we do with stricts and irons.
And then the wood range is improving all the time.
You know, we see our tour players having success on tour,
which then obviously helps generate sales from a from a
retail point of view, you know, the sort of superstars, you
know, we do. We do get affected by those on
what products they use. So a fantastic line.
And then when it comes to custom, well, Sky's the limit
really. You know, from length lie, you
know, all those options, grips, grip sizes.
I sort of took you through some of the very sort of simple
things we do. But when we do do simple things
and effectively is just a head shaft and a grip, it's
manipulation on those on those things.
So small nuances and changes which will affect, you know, how
a golfer, how it feels, how it feels in his hands, how it feels
in the swing and the different types of metals obviously in the
head can can have a a factor on that as well.
Yeah. And one of the things that I
found really, I mean, there's a lot of things I found
fascinating out there, but maybe just cycling back, talking
about, you know, any golfer, not a Tour pro, not an elite
amateur, but any golfer who's playing the game, What is
important to have in custom foot versus taking something off the
rack? You know what are the advantages
for people if they go down the custom foot path?
There's many, there's many things to consider and people
don't Body type, swing speed, Physiology, age, you know, all
these things, injuries, you know, so many things to
consider. You know, I think too much and
too many times people think it's just for an elite player and
it's not at all. You know, why would you not
given the opportunity? It doesn't cost any more to have
a custom set set the tricks and irons or things and wedges.
And it does buy enough the shelf.
So to me, at certain points and times, and I would think wedges
is always a typical example that a lot of people will go with say
a lightweight iron set, you know, shafts, but 1890 gram
steel or sub 80 graphite. And then they'll go and buy a
set of wedges off the shelf with 130 gram shafts.
Nothing like. It yeah, yeah, it's, you know,
to me that is incredible. You know, why would you do such
a thing? You know, you've, you've got
your pitching wedge is an 80g or 70g graphite and you bought a
steel wedge, which is 130 grams. You know, if you went into a pro
shop and you said, I've broken my 9 and it's got a Nippon
Zealous lightweight steel shafting and the pro said, well,
let me pop you in an S300, you'd be outraged.
And yet people purchase wedges completely off kilters so
different to their irons. Those are the sort of things
where I'm like, I really don't understand that you've got an
opportunity to align those wedges as part of a scoring set
and you just you buy something off the shelf, maybe it's price
driven or you know, there's a sale.
I get that. But if you're really trying to
buy yourself the the best equipment, you should really
consider what you're doing. And I think people consider it
very much with drivers more so with irons now, definitely not
with wedges. That's the one part.
And that that quiver of clubs is expanding because loss are
getting stronger. So people's wedges sets are
becoming bigger. So you should consider if you're
carrying four wedges, you're carrying four clubs that you'd
probably have the ability to use very well, less so than your
driver. So the the four clubs you can
use very well, you most golfers in giving less consideration
than the one they're not so good with.
They'll spend hours on a fit with the driver.
The longest club with the least loft, the hardest to use.
And the four clubs or three clubs they can use the best is
oh, they're in a, they're in a, they're in a bucket there.
They're in a bundle of FIFA300 or whatever it may be.
And it's what we're seeing with Potters as well.
I mean, Potters, you're back in the days kind of like go find
one, the pro shop if I get one of your pals.
But it's so important to get a right for yourself versus just
jumping. And and of course you can find
germs all the time, but wedges are so important in the game, as
you say. Yeah, I think for me, the 2
sports that that I'm interested in and sort of know a little bit
about cycling and and golf, a lot of the fun is the research,
isn't it? You know, golfers, it's not just
about, you know, the purchasing of the product.
It's the winter nights looking into it, you know, what am I
going to get? What's the best one who's got,
you know, who's brought this out?
And it is quite incredible how equipment is perceived and
purchased. If you were to go into a pro
shop or superstore, you know, clubs are generally stored with
the grips, you know, into a like a holding system.
So you look at the head. So the club is upside down.
I mean, imagine if you went into a car showroom and the car was
upside down or you went into a Rolex shop and it was inside
out. So we there is consideration
that golfers are affected by the cosmetic and the aesthetic
massively. So for me, there's two, there's
two acid tests. The first acid test is how does
the back of the club look, which is bizarre, isn't it?
You don't. Even look, you don't even have
the ball with that. No, the second acid test is they
put it down now, then it may go into trial because it has to go
past these two processes of cosmetic and aesthetic into sort
of playing profile, then maybe into a fitting room.
I don't know many of the products that you would consider
that, you know, like I say, if you watch was inside out, you'd
think that the guy in the shop was crazy, wouldn't you?
But in golf, that's how it's stored, that's how it's
perceived. And maybe because it's stored in
a bag that way and there's a lot of camera doing bantering golf
that people move towards a certain type of equipment
because there's an influence from the, the playing partners
and also from generational. An iron has to look like an
iron. Well, you know, it's a lot
easier to build a Golf Club and position CG and Moi if you've
got a bigger mass. But people won't, you know, tend
to not want to see backside distraction on an iron.
And I'm like, what do you do with your driver?
Well, that's different. That's the driver.
So you can't see the back of an iron.
Oh no, it's an iron. I can't see the back of an iron
and you're like, OK, well, it would get in the air a lot
easier if you're happy to see the back of the eye.
But those are the sort of challenges that you have as a
manufacturer and with the new R and the RHL range, the challenge
is to make a Golf Club look really good and work.
You can make it work, but it generally doesn't look as good.
It's a lot bigger, it looks more cumbersome, and people don't
like it. I thought with COVID that we'd
have more golfers who sort of accept a club for working, but I
was as I from him, I was mistaken.
And people want to see a certain profile, a certain top line and
a certain luster to the club. The finish as well is is huge.
You know, certain match finishes, yes, but in irons they
like that sort of sparkle that match sat in or black or, you
know, the you know, often the finishes has a, you know, a big
impact and it's it's just it's just a way golf is.
I've realized that now. So you've got to try and make it
work, which luckily they do. They're fantastic performing
clubs, but you've got to make them look good.
And I mean, I think the strict and high range in particular and
the Cleveland wages look amazing.
You know, give me a reason not. To try them?
Absolutely. Gave me a 52 try.
And the thing I was just going to circle back on then in terms
of custom fat, what's the typical lead time of your PGA
professional or a range or whatever puts in an order to
shacks? And how long does that take to
come through? Because as maybe part of the
part where footwork and a shop they pick up what club go ahead
to range go, that's as great and I don't really consider it down.
You're downstream impact to doing that is what's the kind of
turn around time you've got going.
Absolutely. I mean, we've get considerable,
a lot of consideration has been given to lead time.
That's very important. People go on holiday, everybody
who buys a club is going to change their handicap radically,
by the way. You know, it's going to make
that huge difference and I understand it.
I'm the same. You know, it's like a new toy,
isn't it? You know, you know, you want to
get out there, you want to improve your game and we put a
lot of time, effort and resources including financial to
improve our lead time. You can see the size of the size
of the workshop now. So we look to be 5 days or less
to to get them to the customers. On occasion.
We are obviously dependent on other vendors as well, sometimes
shaft and grip. So occasionally it's out of our
hands and the lead time, you know could be extended due to
the fact that we're waiting on products and lead time with
vendors in casting and forging houses.
You don't just give them a ring and say we need some new heads.
So if we have successful products and we make a forecast
and we've seen this quite a lot and it's good to be this
successful that we've outstripped what we thought we
would sell. We've sold a lot more
particularly with Strix and irons, Cleveland wedges and
sometimes as well with some of the Zexio products.
We just sell a lot more than we think we're going to sell.
And you know, the one thing we don't want to do is be a company
who has huge amounts of stock left at the end of cycle and it
has to, we have to burden the industry with selling it off
cheap. It doesn't benefit the retailer,
it doesn't benefit us. Occasionally, you know, the
consumer can get a real bargain. But generally speaking, we try
and be ordered in, in that we have the right amount of stock
for what we're trying to sell. So there is difficult times and
challenges and you know, you do have headwinds like any
industry. But generally speaking, if we
have the stock, we're trying to get it there in 5 days.
That's that's really good. I mean, I think about what
you're investing in a set of clubs, you're probably going to
play them for three or five years, maybe longer, you know,
to take an extra week. Yeah, get it right and have them
correct for you. It's it's really worth the
investment of time. Yes, and with the you know, now
we see the springing up of all the swing rooms in the indoor
studios and the launches from most of the manufacturers come a
little bit earlier people now the more serious golfer and
those who consider their equipment, they are getting
themselves sorted in January, February, March.
So if there's a glitch, you know, when there's a four week
lead time for some reason or another, they're still there
ready for sort of March, April ready to go.
Especially people who buy generally forged products that
they're that considered golfer who want the specs right and
they want to take them to the course.
And if there's some minor adjustments to be made, they
want to. They want to put them in place
before they get into play. Absolutely.
And I'd love to talk about some of the features of their
products, Joe, for folks who maybe don't know about Shreks.
And I think that part that always struck me was that the
ions have got great lengths coming from them, but also they
they can go very high. So what are some of the features
and the products that allow that from you're just technology
that's on there? If if if we're considering sort
of strict and ions, ZX7 is sort of very traditional one piece,
effectively forged so hammered out of ability of steel.
So for the player looking for that that player, you know, that
smaller profile, a specific sort of tow profile, a top line and
one incredibly consistent spin numbers and distance numbers,
you know, no face plate. That's annoying really for them.
All the irons feature the tour Vt sole, which is very popular
on tour with the sole notches. And then we move into the sort
of the I wouldn't say game improvement.
I don't like that term. I always think let's be
aspirational, you know, let's we're going to get better.
So ZX5 and 4 specifically five fits a huge amount of golfers.
There's a lot of type of golfers you can use 5 S reasonably well
forgiving still really from an aesthetic and cosmetic point of
view, they look fantastic, but they are faceplate iron.
You wouldn't sort of think so when you look so tend to have a
little better ball speeds than 7 and little stronger.
And we see the CG in just slightly different positions a
little further back, a little wider sole and we get into the
hollow irons with the four, you know, very sort of strong,
stronger lofts, more distance orientated, a little bit more
forgiveness and that the new Rs and and HLS.
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The ALS are very interesting, reasonably similar specs to 4,
but they are, again, they're not a hollow iron, so they follow a
slightly different profile. But to me, the HLS are the are
the launch that I'm most excited about.
You know, we sort of call them HL when really they are what was
a traditional loft. We've seen diminishing lofts in
the golf industry. We usually slow to follow.
We're not a company who tennis to D loft our clubs.
Others tend to do it before us. And then sometimes you're forced
to follow in the fact that you have that golden 79 number on a
monitor when really it's an old 5 1/2 I so sometimes 79.
You know, you can sort of get those numbers and you think,
wow, these are incredibly long, but there's there's other
factors in play. You know that the loft is
stronger. The links may be a little longer
and you don't have to try and consider can I play in the long
lines? You know, it is A5 and A4
viable? Probably not.
So you know, when you buy a set of irons, especially if you buy
sort of those stronger sets of lofts, you've got to be a little
bit careful. And with that comes generally
added distance if they get a centered strike, but generally
less spin and the descent angles become a little bit too acute
for me. People can't hold greens.
If they carry a bunker, they can't keep it on the green.
So with the HLI and you know, we see loss.
Now what you know I would have seen as a boy or before me, Ben
Hogan would have played. People can get them in the air
because the low spin, low spin balls, low spin drivers, lowest
spinning irons. I think if you go to the doctor
and he gives you some tablets, he'll often tell you to take 2,
won't he, every four hours. But golfers take the whole
bottle. Certainly right away, certainly
we. Stuck yeah, we the ball just we
can't keep it in the air we can't hold degree you know so
those sort of that return to although it's deemed and termed
as HL really to me that's where a lot of golfers should be.
And I would say for, I mean, I've played golf for probably 40
years now and I would say it's, and probably because I've been
brought up in Scotland and played most of my golf there, to
me it's always easy to bring the ball down, but that's to try and
get in there. So why do you want to take so
much loft off that you're you're just striking it so low?
Yeah, it's really tough to get in there at times for people.
Yes it is. And you know the loft on the
head is huge. You know, there's a lot talked
about high launching shafts and yes they will help.
But the loft on the head is is king for me.
The loft and where the mass is, you know, you've got a certain
mass on a say a wet header for 290 grams.
What you do with it, you know, and where you put it.
And then obviously the head weights come down and you know,
a little bit as the length changes.
So what you do with that mass, where you put it has a huge
consideration where the CG is the, the less weight, the more
effect you have on moving a little bit of CG.
But when you, you know, it can be a little bit difficult at
times, you can't move it as much as you'd like.
So Loft Loft is your friend, definitely.
Absolutely. And then the thing that I didn't
even talk about there, Joe Shrikson are pretty famous for
having combo sets that people will take different types of
irons and bring them together. I'd love you talk about those
mixes that people can can work with and all the different, no,
maybe got all the different variations.
You could do anything you wanted, but working as typical
variations that people have for regular golfers.
And what do you see on tour as well with top players?
Combo sets is it's a delight to see.
The one thing I recognise with golfers is they like products
that match. Matching socks, matching hats,
matching everything you know, we like they like them to match.
But golf, you play with one club at a time and really I think you
know the tricks. In Cleveland and Zexia we like
to build clubs fit for purpose. I talked to you previously about
our low lofted fairways have carbon crowns because that's a
club that is really difficult to use.
You've got to try and get the ball off the turf with not much
loft. So we try and grab every gram,
unlike the driver which has a titanium crown which assists our
rebound frame technology. So we don't have a carbon crown
because titanium is quite light and the ball's on a teepa.
So when people start building combo sets and we encourage it
with 75 and 4, not so much with R and HL because they don't
marry up the same, but why wouldn't you?
Why wouldn't you build a combo set?
You know, if there's certainly clubs that you want consistent
spinning, you can have a more centred hit with the shorter
irons. You want those concise
distances, that compact Ted, maybe a sole profile to get to
the turf. Why wouldn't you?
And then why wouldn't you use For me, there's no such thing as
an iron set anymore. It's almost like you should
consider each club, whether it be the wedges into the short
times, into the longer lines. Yes.
And on tour, you know, like Shane has a couple of ZX fives
in his longer lines and that boy can hit you, can't he?
You know, it's pretty. Good.
Yeah, he is. Yeah.
So it makes a lot of sense, especially on distance driven
clubs, to use more forgiving face plate tight clubs because
and I'm with the faceplate, you know, it's getting closer and
closer to being a mini metal would with the back cut off.
But you're just trying to still keep that profile of an eye.
And you know, I just never used to flex when I was a boy.
You know, it was just one lump of iron and it was either it was
either hammered and forged or it was cast.
And now you know, there is there is that opportunity to get
increased ball speeds and a lot more forgiveness.
Something like our mainframe technology where the faceplate
has a series of channels millions behind.
We can save a few grams here and there.
We can boost the ball speeds, especially on the on the miss
hits which we're all capable of, especially as the length
increases. It'd be silly of me not to ask.
What do you play with yourself? I play with an old set of Zexio
46 Ions. They're still they're absolutely
fantastic. And it's it's you know, when you
get comfortable with the set. I'm very fortunate, obviously I
can sort of play with anything. I thought you could spend 14
lifetimes. They're very similar to a set of
sort of stricts and ZX5. So for me that I am fit, so many
golfers from low handicap to, you know, hire handicap, they
can use that club and and they can grow with it as well.
Because if you have a goal for, you know, who's new to the game
and he's improving fast, he probably there's at that point
in time, he might want to consider 1 iron.
But if you wanted an iron to be able to grow with and grow into,
ZX5 is perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Absolutely. And then just on the wedge, he's
just talking about them. What's the kind of technologies
you've got in the new products these days and and what kind of
things can people look out for? The the metal that we make it
out of CBZ and RTZ is very specific.
It's been tailored for the golf industry.
It's not just a stainless steel, which you'd see in different
applications. So that's probably the first
thing. And then we have a line up of
wedges from, you know, RTZCBZ into smarts or where we can
accommodate a lot of type of golfers.
So we go, we go from, I don't like to say blade because
they're not blades anymore then they're on muscle back, you
know, wedge the RTZ and you probably look at that golfer
who's using ZX7 and 5:00. But you do have to consider the
lofts and the face technology. Too many times people look at AP
and then think the gaps 50 or 52.
But with diminishing lofts, if you have a pitching wedge, which
has got a faceplate and a loft of 44, you cannot go to a gap
wedge of 48. Even that, that 4° gap won't
work unless you, you know, you, you consider the ball speeds off
the 2. So going through that sort of
gap in session with a good pro or club fitter, you, you can
marry them in. And then we have the sort of
cavity wedges and they're very considered.
So why more people who play cavity irons don't play cavity
wedges is beyond me. You know, they actually align
much better and we consider the components.
So we've done a little bit of the thinking for you.
If you buy a CBZ where just the shaft is lighter and the swing
weights is lighter on the club, more relevant to the type of
irons you've bought. So it's like I said earlier,
there's a complete mismatch often where people have a set of
cavity irons and then a set of sort of muscle back wedges and
the two that the point where they fuse is so far apart, they
don't fuse for me. There's a there's a void and
then we have obviously our sort of full face options in wedges
where the score lines go all the way across.
Shane uses one of those. It's funny because golfers I've
noticed with shapes of clubs and types of designs from square
drivers and triangle drivers to full face clubs, there's then
they find them that they can't look at them visually.
And I said to Shane, you know, how do you see the full face on
your 58? Are you OK with that?
Because I hear amateurs, they don't like it.
And he says to me, well Joe, I can't play without it now.
To me that's the norm. And from a science point of
view, I look at it and I think who goes to get new tyres and
things? I'll just have 3/4 of the tread
today please. You just don't do that, do you?
It makes so much sense to have score lines all the way across a
club, especially on a wedge when you open the face and the ball
runs from heel to toe and you strike it in the toe power
region and the debris isn't eliminated because there's no
score line, there's no groove. That doesn't make any sense to
me. So as if you thinking golf don't
make any sense. Not using wedges with full faces
doesn't make any sense from a scientific point of view.
I get it from the cosmetic, but if you want to disperse debris
and you want to get the most friction, why wouldn't you use a
full face wedge? Absolutely.
There you go. You know, we all have different
sort of opinions and you know, and again, that cosmetic is an
aesthetic is a big consideration for most golfers.
And then just circling back on the custom FAB process and how
the belt goes as well. I mean, just talk a little bit
in detail about some of the pieces that people could
potentially get wrong, whether that's the wrong grip on a club.
You are taking me through some of the challenges that you see
that people may get something custom felt and put a new grip
on. Just talk about how that changes
the profile of the club. Yes.
So effectively when we get an order for a set of irons, if
there's a light change or a certain type of grip, then we
will consider how we cut it. So when the shaft is cut in the
cutting room, it's consideration for the cap size on the grip and
the lie of the club because they can change the length of the
shaft just a little bit and you put the two together can have a
little bit more effect. So when we build that club, we
cut the shaft appropriately and then it goes through the process
and we put the grip on that the customer has asked for.
Now if you start changing the lie of a club there is a
marginal change to the length. Probably wouldn't affect most
people, especially with an iron, but grip changes have
significant changes and how it feels and the component weight.
So often a customer will you'll go for lessons or maybe they
develop arthritis and they want to have a bigger grip on.
Yes and there may be some sort of contoured or textured finish
to the grip. But generally speaking there is
some low density grips such as a jumbo Max or something like that
or a dry tap light. But generally the density of a
grip doesn't change. So if the diameter increases,
the weight goes up considerably. So if you think of most standard
grips would be something between 48 and 52 grams.
So the balance point of the club is built with that in
consideration. So we, we try and balance the
club and come up with a swing weight using those, you know,
the head weight and the grip weight.
So if you went away and you'd had, I don't know, let's say
you'd had an MCC 48g grip on and then you went away and you put
on a set of jumbos or an athletic grip up in the 70
fives. You know, you'll see in there 30
gram weight change in component weight and for every 5 grams of
grip weight you sort of see a one point swing weight change.
So if you had a set of ions with a set of stiff shafts which
you'd requested at D3, you'll see a six point change because
you've put that grip on. So suddenly the component weight
has gone up significantly, but the feel and the swing weight
feels like you've got a lighter club because the balance point
has changed significantly. So people will make changes to
clubs and not really understand what's happening and they'll go
back and well, it feels really light.
It's actually heavier if you, if you hold it in the middle for
you know, if you hold it in the middle of the balance point, the
whole club has gone heavier, but you're feeling it's lighter
because the balance point has changed significantly.
And we've seen some technologies in the past where that's been
done on purpose counterweighting.
We counterweight some of our sexual clubs because when you're
trying to yield a lot a wield a young, a long club, it can feel
heavy. So by putting some weight behind
your hands, the grave. Jack Nicklaus used to use lead
tape and I think Sergio Garcia and Matt Fitzpatrick have both
looked at counterweighting. It's easy to direct the head, so
you can sometimes increase the mass in the head and
counterweight and get a balance point.
But when you do mass changes to try and increase force,
generally swing speed drops. So when you sort of do all this
messing and I've tried, it doesn't tend to work out the
head weights that we have and virtually all the manufacturers
have sort of tried and tested over a long time.
I've seen a lot of changes in golf, but head weights haven't
changed a lot. If you look at a driver head
weight from 40 years ago, it'll still be around 200 grams.
If you put more head weight in and trying, you know, try and
skew the F equals MA, you'll find that generally your swing
speed will drop and speed generally beats mass.
So when you mess with it, you know, you might change the swing
weight, you might change the orientation of the face, but
you've got to be careful because sometimes your swing speed will
drop as well. So you can golfers could
actually impact their swing speed with driver for example
any club by moving the swing weight around.
Or just, yeah, the swing weight will generally be that you've
changed the mass in the head or the grip.
But generally head mass, if you increase head mass, you get more
force, but because the force is moving slower, you get less ball
speed. So there's always a trade off.
If you look at some of ours axial products that the mass of
the head is proportionally heavier than the other parts
compared to other golf clubs because we're trying to get fast
by using very lightweight products and a slightly longer
club, but an increased mass proportionally.
Do you get me? So even though the headweight on
his exo tends to be less than a fixing driver, it can create
more force because it's moving faster.
So that's how we consider, you know, that's moderate swing
speed trying to build the speed lightweight products maybe a
touch longer and proportionally a heavy mass.
And when I say that people think what the head's heavy, no, it's
not heavier than, you know, other brands or our restriction
drivers, but we try and get it moving faster.
So we make these considerations for the golfer, these things
I've done previous. So we we think about where
they're going to hit it or what they're trying to do and we
build the club accordingly. So Zexio clubs, we know that
people generally struggle to get the ball in the air.
They struggle for speed and they generally hit it to the right.
O we want to keep the loft U get the CG down, close the face
angle, high torquing, lightweight shafts, all of these
things. O some of that customs are
already done and then it would be the finite nuances when you
go and see a good club fit. Fantastic.
And you touched on arthritis there.
So I get pain in my hands. I switched to graphite shafts a
number of years ago to try and support with that.
I thought if you talk about how much graphites come on, Joe, in
terms of of course driver shafts, but also iron shafts and
who people can actually get help for physical issues potentially
related to the speed of the swing and all those things and
what you can do from that point of view.
Yeah, from a vibration damping point of view, some golf clubs
have something in the head. If you look at our CBZ wedges,
we have a TPU badge in the back which looks like part of the
club. Thermal plastic polyurethane,
which is an impact modifier. Your mobile phone case or the
dashboard on your car. So we have to be careful.
We can't make it too soft. If you can push your nail into
it, it would be, it wouldn't pass the rules of Golf, but you
can sort of impact. You can change the impact and
the vibration with the head, but only to a certain extent.
For me, the softness of the metal a little bit, but that
doesn't have a big impact. The big impact is the shaft and
the grip. Softer sort of lower density
grips definitely absorb vibration graph graphite shafts
most definitely, you know, assist with injuries.
You don't get that vibration, especially tennis elbow,
golfer's elbow, like you say, arthritis.
And then there is some iron shafts where you can have Avas
or vibration absorbs some systems in, you know, some sort
of filtering system in the in the shaft, like a little bit of
foam or something like that to help.
But generally, I think if you're struggling, most people would
move to a graphite shaft. And there's there's still a lot
to come. I think with with carbon and
graphite, it goes back a long way.
I think we were talking about, you know, Edison, Thomas Edison
first come across and used it in candles and lights and things
like that. And then it sort of fell away.
And then there was a boom in the early 60s where it came back and
then it sort of lost its way again.
Rolls Royce really made some big advances with jet engines.
And then that sort of fell away. But in the last 50 years, you
know, it started to really sort of come back.
And I think there's still a long way to go with how carbon is
manufactured, the different toe, you know, the amount of strands
in there, how we direct it. And because it's a composite,
it's a resin and a carbon put together, how much you know of
the proxy is used, you know, all these sort of things.
So I still think there's quite a lot of exciting stuff to happen
more specifically with carbon shafts, graphite shafts and
maybe composite in heads. I think the jewel is still out
on that one, really. Yeah, where we're going with
that. And at the moment, I don't think
we've any plans to be using any composite in the head in the
faceplate anyway. And just rounding off from the
custom fat process, what about the quality control?
So obviously the manufactured components that come out of very
high quality, but what kind of processes do you have in place
that make sure that sucks and clubs come out here at the real
top end of quality as well? It's a good, it's an interesting
question as it goes through the various stations and processes,
the the guys who build the clubs sort of do intermediate checks
anyway. So if you cut a club a shaft and
you put the tapes on and it goes to be swing weighted when you
put the head on and you have the grip on the swing weight scale.
If it's standard length and suddenly you put the head on and
you're going to measure it as well.
By the way, while you're there and the swing weight goes out a
mile, then you always know straight away that there's an
anomaly because you know where the swing weight should be.
So you obviously measure the club in that station as well as
swing weighted. So if there's a length issue,
it'll show up there straight away.
And then and then from that process onwards until it gets to
QC, which is the sort of, you know, this is where this is
where it ends. You know, at the QC station,
it'll go all the way from there, but hopefully if the legs right,
you know, it'll be built properly as it goes through the
process. And once the grip goes on, it
goes to QC. And then there they are measured
for length for line loft and grip straight right length, not,
not stretched, not scrambled. The fowl is finished precisely.
So there, there's a lot of processes there because we have
a tolerance to build to and they have a tolerance that the heads
are, and when we have our, some component accounts, they're
always very pleased with the, with our components that they
don't have to do too much too. If it says you've standard, it's
standard lie, it's going to be very close to that lie.
You know, if it's a pitching range, it's 63 five, it's, it's
going to be very, very close. And a lot of them will check and
make minor adjustments because when you go through a casting
and a forging process, you know, when molten metal goes from
1600° to naughty, you know, over quite a short period of time,
there is contraction processes and the ambient temperatures,
things do happen. So if anyone says that every
single one is going to be absolutely perfect.
No, there may be just minor discrepancies, but generally
speaking, they're really, really good.
And, and I think I showed you in the in the head boxes we
actually write on if the gram right -1 or -2.
Yeah, I can't believe how the detail is is so tight.
But it's a Japanese company, very humble.
But you know, precision is, is a big part of it.
You think of all the Japanese companies that you can think of,
Sony, you know, Suzuki, Honda, whatever, you know, technology
is key and precision is key. And then we, we are, we are
charged. We are, it's our duty to get
that iron, get that wedge, get that driver and make it
precisely. They give us the products, the
components. It's up to us to put it
together. Absolutely.
Well, Joe, thanks so much for taking me around to Vitality,
answering all these questions and I'm sure the listeners are
going to love it. Thanks so much.
I really appreciate it. No.
Problem at all. It was a pleasure.
I'd like to thank Joe Miller and Shreks in Europe for an
incredible insider experience at their Custom Fit facility in
Asheville. It's only served to reinforce my
love of the brand and the quality of the products they
create. If you enjoyed this episode,
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You can also find the show on Instagram at Linked by G2024 for
future episodes, clips and insights.
I'm Ross McGuire, thanks for listening.
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