Welcome back to Linked by Golf, the podcast exploring the
journeys of people linked by the game.
I'm your host, Ross McGuire, and today's episode is a fascinating
one because we're going behind the scenes of something every
golfer uses, but very few truly understand.
I'm at Strickson's European Custom Build Facility, sitting
down with our product manager, Joe Miller, and in this
conversation, we dive into the history of golf clubs, how
modern equipment is actually built on some of the biggest
misconceptions golfers have when it comes to what's in their bag.
If you've ever wondered whether your clubs are right for you or
what really matters when it comes to performance, this
episode will definitely make you think differently.
Let's go over to Joe. Joe Miller, Shakson Product
Manager. Thanks for your time again.
We've talked already, Joe, about your facility here at Ashfield,
but I'd love to go through some of the history of golf in
relation to Shakson and, and just get your perspective and
some of the the information from Shakson itself.
So where does the story of our Golf Club really began?
That's a good one, Ross. And I know you're Scottish, so
you might be a little bit biased on this and I don't blame you
because I think with regards to making golf clubs, it was the
sort of home. I think there's evidence and
it's debated that the first Pebble was struck with a stick
around the 12 and 13 hundreds. But there's evidence of crafted
golf clubs mid 1500s and they were sort of crafted out of
wood. And it was quite, when you go
back and I've looked at it a little bit and you might have to
check this one, but I think it was King James the second who
said no more golf because you're not practicing your archery.
And a lot of those guys who made the bows, they actually became
crafting Craftsman, making golf clubs because they were good at
making bows. So they were generally, I think
they genuinely used hardwoods because obviously softwoods
wouldn't work, Beech, ash, and there was obviously some fruit
trees in their pears, apple. And then later we see Persimmon
and I don't think most people realise that's a fruit as well.
I do believe so, yeah. Those clubs, I think so, yeah, I
could be wrong. We'd probably get 5000 people,
70. Mr. doesn't know his trees.
Yeah. So yeah, I think we can put it
down to Scotland sort of mid 1500s really that we sort of saw
the first ones and then. What part of that, Johnny, do
you think golfers really think about in terms of the history of
the of the clubs and and where they came from?
Great question, isn't it? I think the big change is the
big transitions, you know, the, the, the, was it about 1920,
something like that? Was it steel shafts and, you
know, carbon shafts, graphite shafts?
I mean, for me, I mean, I love the science of it and getting
back just before the industrial revolution, we sort of saw the
first iron about, I think they're about 1720, something
like that. But it, you know, when they were
using certain types of metals and I think it was a guy, if I
remember rightly, Abraham Derby with his smelting processes
using coke, he sort of could, he could get low sulfur iron, which
was less brittle. So all these things happen.
And you know, in Shropshire we saw Thomas Telford with the
bridges and all these things. So, you know, golf metals which
have been used, have often been used in other industries.
So until there was advancements there, we couldn't advance with
golf, you know, So it's changed radically.
But there's, there's been some huge steps along the way.
Titanium was massive, wasn't it? You know, making those first,
those first big heady tribes. In fact, Cleveland was the first
company to make a 460CC drive. We saw the launcher.
Yeah, they made a four. CC drive, Yeah.
First, first company to do that. Fantastic.
Yeah, there's a there's a claim to fame that.
And what what is it about those I guess evolutions in golf and
the manufacture and creation that you know, influences how a
club actually feels in the golfers hands?
It's a good question. To me, it's the head weights
haven't changed massively in the grit weights the shafts have,
but the sort of balance and the feel of a Golf Club, it hasn't
changed radically. But you know, you have to have
head weights, grit weights and shaft weights, precision to make
it sort of feel good. And how it feels in the hands
that, you know, you don't need too big a change before it feels
odd, doesn't feel right. And that's where custom clubs
come in. And you know, when you go, you
know, off piece with radically different lengths and things,
you can see some some changes. Yeah.
And we've. Touched on a set of job.
At what stage do you see that club is actually real to you or.
When the grip goes on, definitely, yeah.
And there's no doubt about it. When the grip goes on, suddenly
it's in your hands. It's the appropriate diameter,
the swing weights. Correct.
You know, you can sort of feel it.
You can swish it. Yeah.
Until the grip goes on. Yeah, It feels.
It's like, it's like it's, you know, it's it's not.
It's alien to you. The grip needs to go on.
And what does quality mean in this?
Building, oh, everything, everything.
It's a, it's a Japanese company. We are duty bound, you know that
that's our job. We are duty bound to give a
service and a product to the consumer who's, you know, hard
earned money, you know, whatever profession they are, you know,
healthcare worker, garden or whatever, they worked hard to
get that money and this is their disposable income.
And it's our duty, you know, as a Japanese company, they demand
that we give a quality product that's first and foremost above
everything else. And where does our attention to
detail mark the most? That's a great question.
For most people, I would suggest when they look at a Golf Club,
they look at the sort of cosmetic and the finish of the
head, the feral and then obviously the grip where you
touch the club because if it scrambled or just, you know,
it's not on correctly, it's very visible.
But to me, from our processes, the actual cut length is the
most important. If we get that wrong, so many
other things are wrong. The length's wrong, the lies
wrong, the swing rates wrong. So if we make a mistake and he's
not picked up, the cutting of the shaft is absolutely
critical. And how far we put it into the
head, the foul depth. So we need those things to be
precise. But I get it that people see the
other things. They see a small scratch or they
see a, you know, they might see it's a slight decal
misalignment. It's not going to change the
actual physical capabilities or, you know, what are the club
words. But if you cut that shaft wrong,
you know you've got to go backwards, you've got to start
again. Yeah, absolutely.
And then on that point, what kind of skills do people need to
be able to put the clubs together at that type of level
that you're? Talking about Joe, Gosh.
It's going on, isn't it? I mean, people would always sort
of say hand die and dexterity, but to me, you can learn those
skills reasonably quickly, especially with repetition.
To me, it's a trait. You've got to care, You've got
to, you've got to put it. If it goes on the swing weight
scale and you need to walk 100 yards back into the warehouse to
pick a head weight -2 to align the swing weight, that's what
you've got to do. You've got to care.
It's not a skill to me, it's that it's, it's a passion and
that's maybe a little bit overused, but there's people who
have a passion for golf who work in our workshop as they do in
all golf industry. But there's other people who do
it for wage but still to care. You know, that means probably
more than anything because you know, golf clubs aren't cheap
anymore. They need to be right And you
need to be bothered. You know, if you've put a grip
on incorrectly, you need to take it back off.
I, I, I was showing you how we laid up tape earlier.
If you if if there's a Seymour wrinkle in the tape, just take
it off. That's on about 20 seconds
before there's a tape. I've done it before.
I noticed. But you know, it's those sort of
things that you know, if you, if you're layering up a grip and
the first one goes on with the wrinkle, it's a snowball effect.
It multiplies. And certainly you've got a Ridge
underneath the grip running in the wrong direction.
Just take it off, just start again.
Care about what you're doing. So yes, skills maybe or traits
To me it's do you care? And how do you know the build is
right when you get to the end? QC effectively has a number of
procedures and processes length lie, loft, swing way and and we
have to be within a very tight tolerance from our Japanese spec
sheet. So yeah, they we're very
particular about that. And how do you think golfers
feel about changes in equipment? Changes.
That's a great question. When you mean changes, you sort
of say like when they change their spec or like the materials
change. What do you think?
OK, I guess it could be though, Yeah, like the look, the feel,
the what's the what's the kind of things that you bump up
against with with customers ultimately.
Oh, I. Think, I think for me it's the
the unwillingness to move off the sort of norm the tradition
golfers just want it to look a driver has to look like a sort
of pear shape or a nice profile has to look like this and that
puts demands and and constraints on R&D and.
We're almost conductioned, don't we?
Yeah, yeah, I, I think, and I get it.
I understand that, you know, we do like things what look nice,
but you know, there's times they'll go with it, you know,
and and marketing can drive it, but we often see things coming
round full circle, don't we? You know, golf ball, you know,
visual tech and stuff, and it always ends on back at a white
ball and you know, head designs that come back to a traditional.
You call the Golf Museum in Saint Andrews, you can see what
effectively hybrids from 200 years ago.
Yes, exactly. And they knew what they were
doing. They just didn't have the
materials to do it. You know the one at Saint
Andrews, they're just off. The Old Course is phenomenal.
It's. Unbelievable.
Yeah, it is. And those knew what they were
doing. And you even see things like
convex and concave faces and all that.
It's quite incredible, yeah. Yeah.
And I guess just on that theme, what things have stayed pretty
consistent in golf even though the rest of it evolves?
Well, head weights, that's the one for me.
We choose. Fascinated by that?
Yeah, Head weights especially like, you know, drivers, even
though they've gone in volume much bigger, the actual weight,
it hasn't changed a lot. You know, titanium face plates
are quite heavy because they're forged and the bodies are
lighter. They tend to be a cast titanium,
maybe an 811 titanium, but they haven't changed a great deal.
We've messed with that, everybody else trying to trying
to sort of find the Holy Grail. But head weights haven't changed
a lot. Shaft weights have changed
radically and grip weights a little bit, but remember if
you've got a headwind, you've got to balance it at the other
end. So if you go like grip weight,
you're going to have a heavy swing weight if the head weight
stays consistent. So yeah, there's, there's
challenges there. For me.
Shaft weight has changed and shaft manufacturing, I think,
you know, they started off when we were talking about earlier
the 1500s. I think it started with Hazel
before they ever went to Hickory.
So we've seen an evolution from, you know, natural products into
sort of man made products into now composites.
So yeah, we've seen a lot of change there and.
Then how do you decide when something is truly better versus
just different? How do you know?
Gosh, that's that's a tough one. I think when you make a radical
change, whether it be a square triangle driver or a hybrid type
iron, generally speaking, you can see some some gains, some
some advantages, but does it overcome what people want to
see? That's the challenge.
So the challenge is to be able, like I said, I think I've just
done this earlier, to make something what looks acceptable
because there is this point, point in time in the golf
industry where there is definite changes.
You know, titanium was a big one.
You know, it's strength to weight ratios, phenomenal, its
ability to rebound, these sort of things.
And you know, we touched on carbon graphite shafts and
there's some definite advantages.
Now, I think if there's a big leap, people will take it.
If it's a small leap but it means a difference in how it
looks, I'm not so sure there's a willingness to do that.
Yeah, and then what the golfers misunderstand about choosing a
quadrant. What things do you?
Think, oh, specs definitely, no doubt the you know, the I'm I'm
standard spec is I've heard that so many times and I don't think
there's a realization that even within brands, let alone across
the industry, that a standard spec from one product range is
different to another. So if you get a smaller profile
and iron micro cavity, you can almost guarantee the lie will be
a little flatter than the bigger headed, you know, perimeter
weight club. There's a consideration given to
that type of goal from where he's going to hit it.
So if you said to me on my wedge, I want to set a wages Joe
and the lies standard, you know, to me it could be 63.5, it could
be 64.5 and then you say I'm standard length and I'm like,
well, this brand is this length and this brand is this.
So I said, Oh yeah, unless you tell me your eye on his 37.25
and by the way, you need to tell me exactly which ruling you're
measuring it on. It means nothing to me.
Yeah. So you know, when someone
marches in and says I'm standard, I'm like, there is
there is no standard. You know, it's like someone say
you need Marks and Spencer's. I need a standard pair of
trousers. You know, what's one of them?
And even the sizes of the trousers, you know, they they
vary, don't they? There is no standard.
If you've been enjoying the show, please do remember to
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friend. Now let's get.
Back to the pod. So when people find the right
say of what actually changes for them?
If they if they get it right, I think there's a time and it's
coming. It comes to all of us as
golfers. If you get it right, it really
does make a difference. You know, even at a dress you're
comfortable on you before you even hit the club.
You put your hands on it, you address it.
It's the length and lie is right before you even start.
You're in the right place, your mindset and if you have early
success with the Golf Club, how psychologically that you know
you really you know there's a lot of psychology isn't the best
shots are hitting Nets. The second best shots are hit on
a range. The third best shots are hit on
a golf course, so confidence is huge.
But then when you go to swing your Golf Club when things are
right, you know, to be able to have that centered hit with a
square face. I mean, the face angle is king.
The bullet starts off where the gun aims it.
So you know, if you can get those, if you can get things
right and launch monitor data is fabulous.
I'm a big fan of it. But remember there's an
algorithm and remember it's still physics.
So from from from Galileo to Newton to Einstein to Hawking,
we're still guessing a little bit.
But what we do know is those quantifiable things like
lengths, lies, head weights. So if people really want to get
into golf, they would learn that spec and they would learn what
they need instead of getting wrapped up in the seven iron
spinning at 6100. There's still an element of sort
of guessing going on here, but with specs, it's quantifiable.
This is the mass, this is the length, this is the material
learning. Understand it and know what your
specs are because you can go to a range and you can go on launch
monitor data and one day you hit in a one piece range ball, you
know, with a bit of mud on the next day you hit in a two piece
with some water on and all these things change.
Everything changes. So unless you can, unless you
can quantify it, you know, it's difficult with launch Monitor
data. It's a brilliant product.
But like I say, we've forgotten the basics a little bit, I think
sometimes. And to me, you know when you've
been in our workshop, that's where it starts.
You know, know your specs, understand it when you get
there. There's no reason to not know
what you think you should be or roughly and being going to be
afraid to ask those questions. Absolutely, and what can
everyday golfers learn from how a league players approach?
Equipment. So this might surprise people.
First of all, most of them don't care what it looks like 4 player
it sometimes it looks like it's been dragged behind the car.
They want it to work for them. It's a toolkit.
So I'll give you an example. Me and you go to.
We're going to do some DIY at home.
Yeah. And we buy a set of matching
standard tools, don't we? And the box is the same as
yellow and black. And we've got the same saw and
the same blade and. And it's got a look, right.
And then the guy who can make the cupboard properly, we have
not get him in, don't we? Because we've made a really poor
job of putting that IKEA cupboard together.
Or we tried to make a desk for the door or something.
So we have to call in a Craftsman and he walks in and
they look like they fell out the back of the door.
We don't know. He's got a different source.
They're all worn out. They're tools, aren't they?
They are. They are to do a job.
And when you look at elite players and some tool players,
there's, there's old clubs in the back, you know, a scratch to
the top of the crown. It doesn't, it just doesn't
bother them. There's lead tape smeared on it.
It's a tool to work in retail and consumers.
You know, if there's a speck of rust comes on occasionally, you
know, it'll be returned, you know, and yeah.
And, and we sort of have that scenario whereby it's, it's not
affecting the club in any way. Whereas elite golfers, they
just, it doesn't matter. Their job, whether it be an
elite amateur, is to shoot the lowest score or a professional
to earn as much money in to win those tournaments.
So to them, it's a toolkit. To most amateurs, it's as much a
prized possession. And, you know, they want it to
look nice. Whereas I think elite golfers,
no, it's it's got to work. And then you see that a lot.
And don't get me wrong with some of the amateurs who will clean
their clubs, you know, big, you know, be obsession about it.
But for me, for amateurs to top throws, it's there.
It's more like they know their specs and it's got to work.
And if it's an old free would what works or an old putter, it
stays in the back. If they want the old generation
ball, they use that. They don't have to go to the new
and, you know, the newest generation of products.
Blow in and then how much influence the two players have
on what ends up in regular golfers bags do you think?
Oh, there's no doubt and there's a huge influence in there.
I don't think companies would pay multi millions to players if
they if they didn't think it had an influence.
There is a pyramid of influence as a company.
I think you can see, you know, our tour staff isn't as big as
some others. But from a retailer and a
consumer point of view, we realise that retailers have to
make a living and consumers, there's a sort of a range, a
price range where clubs, you know, go out of range.
And by not having such a huge tour staff and a huge marketing
budget, we are able to offer very competitively priced
products. We don't have to pay 50 million
to this player and this player. And yet proportionally, if you
actually look at the amount of tourings we have, like most,
most weeks on PG Tour, it's a field say 140 plus golfers, we
might only have 10 staffers and yet our proportion of wins is
much higher than that. So we punch really well from a
tour point of view. And a lot of those players, you
can imagine, it's a Japanese company, they've been with us
for many, many years. Not a lot of chopping and
changing there. Yeah, absolutely.
And then what's a mem? Memorable moment where equipment
really marked for one of those players.
Have you got any memories that really stand out?
Oh absolutely, the one that stands out for me.
You're not going to believe this.
Let me guess, I think it was 1995.
Shinnecock Hills. This is a guy using a club which
we talked about tour players using something.
What works was a Cleveland staff player, Corey Paving hit in his
forward like Shinnicop Hill. It was Avas forward.
And did you see the Ions? Do you remember?
It's like the ones where. They kind of like a heel on
them, yeah. The anti Shank, yeah.
And they had a vibration system on which was developed by I
think Rossignol, the ski people. And there's a guy who used a
product that worked, you know, we got a little bit more loft on
it. I think it was, you know, a 16°
forward 16 1/2. And his caddy had a discussion
with him. I think it was 225 pin,
something like 9 or 10 front. And they were discussing 2 iron
and this forward, you know, because there wouldn't be a huge
difference in in the two because the 2 iron would be quite strong
enough. And they they went with that
forward and there was there was a goal for using a club that
worked, you know, and years ago, you know, you wouldn't have had
that type of head with where the mask was and being able to get
it in the air. And, you know, he was, what was
he, 5 foot 904? You know, no, no, you know, he
wasn't a big man And and you know, he only hit it 2:30 off
the team and he had another 225 to go.
Yeah, that was incredible. And then I think Greg Norman was
behind you chasing him down straight.
And to me, you know, he hit that little drawing with that, with
that forward. And I was like, wow.
And probably you, you won't see that someone anymore because,
you know, unlike boxing, we don't have weight divisions.
But you look at the guys now, you know, they hit it so far.
They are such big units. Yeah, maybe that we won't see
those shots quite so much him and the sort of Zach Johnson's
and the Jeff Slewman's anymore. But there was a guy who used
something that didn't look necessarily perfect.
Nobody worked. Yeah, it was definitely
different that one. Yeah.
And then behind the scenes here, Joe, who are the people that
golfers never get to see behind the brand?
In this building, I think the admin side of things, the demand
planning, you know those, those orders are put in, you know, we,
we are, we're about to launch a product in the upcoming months
and that's all done and dusted. We're moving on to the next lot
now. So what you see when it comes
out we're, we're on the next 1-2 years down the line.
So we've a team of demand planners who works with all
different vendors from all over the world bringing those
components in here. So they're really big.
Then we have the the the custom services team deal with the
retailers, consumers, So all of those sort of people behind the
scenes, you know, often Dove, you just want to see that
sprinkling of gold does, don't you?
The tour truck and then you know what I mean, the interesting
bit, but there is no products without the teams behind.
And then the workshops team, you know, every day they come in
and, you know, build golf clubs every single day and.
It's. Hundreds.
Yeah, it is. Hundreds and hundreds.
Yeah, it's a lot of golf clubs. You know, most of those guys,
the skilled ones, will pop out over 100 clubs a day.
Wow. And.
Then what draws those people on the What can a golfer comment
you think? What do you see?
What's someone like me who failed golfers because we all
wanted to play on tour, didn't we?
And then we had to find a different route.
I think you did OK. You're talking against Daria
Wilson from You Can Have Been Out but.
The I think there's a passion with some people and there's no
doubt about it. It's their life, isn't it?
You know, it's, it's a bit of a bell chanting when he said, you
know, it's a matter of life and death.
It's more important than that Football.
And it's a bit like that with golf that some people it's, it's
everything to them. They live and breathe it and
some people. But then you get, I think people
like me like the science side of things as well.
So the sport and the science sort of come together, you know,
why does it do that? You know?
You know, there's a lot more to it than people think, you know,
the metals, the composites, the putting it together.
So we get all sort of walks of life, I think.
But generally speaking, a lot of people who work in this
industry, especially in sales and workshop, they tend to be
interested in golf and play the game.
Most of our team play the game. Absolutely.
And then just wrapping up here, Joe, watch something about us
for Sally that was surprised last night.
I think probably the workshop. I think the workshop and the
nature of the tools. There you go.
There's a good one. So I showed you the cutting
rooms and that's quite a sophisticated piece of
equipment, very accurate, can cut multiple shafts like a set
of irons. But then we have the Ferrell
press where we press the the Ferrells on.
Well, you can do that by hand, but then after that very much
it's all hands on. So, you know, most people could
build golf clubs in their garage with sort of quite, you know,
simple tools and that process is very hands on all the way
through. You know, that I think people
would be surprised at the lack of, you know, sort of robotics.
Everything is still hands. And when you, you know, you sort
of talk about handcrafted and things, you know, there's always
a worry, isn't there? And there always will be.
When you're out the human element, it's a Friday
afternoon, you know, you know, you see, you want to go, Oh, you
know, you know, you're worried about the mortgage payment or
you know, you've had a rally with the girlfriend.
You know, there's always those things going through your head.
So keeping that human element and having those processes in
place because you, you know, you physically have to put a grip on
you do have to put a tip weight in.
So as you saw, there isn't this, there isn't these high tech
machines in there. People, I think people think
that it starts off like Wallace and Gromit and it gets to the
other end. It just doesn't work like that.
So yeah, a lot of people hands on a lot of attention to detail
from the start process to the end.
But it's not like, you know, lights and gadgets and it's a
very sort of simple basic tool workshop.
And that's that's what a lot of them are, because the actual put
in the components together is unlike the actual making of the
components. There's more automated processes
to make the heads than there is. And you put it all together.
And all our custom tubs are built here for the whole of
Europe. So everything from here goes all
over Europe. So yeah, we build it and send it
out. So, you know, we put those parts
together. And to me, which you've got
quality components, then it's about how it's put together.
It really is. So yeah, I think that would
surprise a lot of people. They would expect to go in there
and there would be one person pushing buttons, but that's not
the case, is it? Definitely no.
It was absolutely blown away. But Joe, thanks so much for
taking. Thanks for touring.
The facility has been absolutely fascinating.
Again, Timothy, thanks so much. No problem, thank you.
I'd like to thank Joe Miller and his team at strikes and for the
time and support to create this episode.
If you enjoyed the show, make sure to follow or subscribe
wherever you're listening. And if you know someone who's
going through a fitting or thinking about new clubs, do
send us their way. You can also find the show on
Instagram at Linked by G2024 for future episodes, clubs and
insights. I'm Ross McGuire.
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