Welcome back to Linked by Golf, the podcast exploring the
journeys of people linked by the game.
I'm your host, Josh McGuire, and today's episode's a fascinating
one. We're going behind the scenes of
something every golfer experiences but very few truly
understand. I'm joined by John Mather,
sports psychologist, lecturer, and someone who's spent 30 years
working with elite performers across golf, tennis, snooker and
motorsport. In this conversation we get into
mental side of the game in a way that I think will generally
change how you think about your own golf.
We talk about pressure, acceptance, pre short routines
and why even the best players in the world aren't immune to self
doubt. And what really struck me is
that whether you're a scratch golfer, 20 handicapper, the
challenges John describes are the same.
It's just the level they show up at that's different.
If you've ever talked yourself out of a shot, lost your head
after a bad hole, I wondered why Your best golf seems to
disappear and it matters most. This episode is for you.
Let's go over to John. John, how are you doing?
I'm doing great, Ross. Thanks very much for having me
on your show. No problem at all.
And John, things have changed recently for you.
So you're no longer working at the University of Sterling.
So what's that changing in terms of how you're approaching the
customers and and they go forward here and especially how
you're going to be playing golf in the future as well?
Well, you're right. I worked at Stirling University
for 30 years and I left there at the end of last year, so it was
a great time by and large at the university.
But it was time for me to leave that sector and just do a little
bit of a more of my own thing and work more in private
practice. It probably means I'll have more
time to practice golf, to go to the gym, to rest and relax and
to take more holidays than 1/2 done over the past few decades.
But it's a chapter in my life that I'm really looking forward
to. Fantastic.
And John McKenna, Jump Street and yeah, but how did you get
involved in golf? And you've been working on
performance and golf together and I believe in other sports as
well, but golf is one of your main things.
How did that all begin for you? How's you get into sport?
Well, when I was growing up, I was always keen to to be
involved in lots of different sports.
And my first degree was in human movement.
And after that first degree in human movement, that probably
kindled my appetite to understand how people became
good at certain sports as well as participating in them.
And that fueled I need for me to go and do master's degrees and
working out exactly how people can de develop peak performance.
And then I went in to look at coaching philosophies, and then
eventually I did a PhD in psychology so that I've tried to
understand exactly how people can deliver their best
performances and competitions that matter to them.
Fantastic. And then when you're doing that,
what types of experiences have you had with people who've been
working with you? What kind of things have have
happened as a result of working together?
So I've been lucky that over the last 30 years I've worked in
elite sport and lots of sports psychologists will work with
lots of different people on lots of different projects.
But what really invigorated me was watching elite sport so that
I can see sport being done at the very highest level.
So if it was a tennis ball being struck, A snooker ball being
struck, a golf ball being struck, some rugby, some
football, some cricket, any sport that was done at the
highest level, I was found really, really exciting and I
decided to focus my career on helping those people who are
already good at sport but just wanted to deliver their best
performance in the heat of competition and batter.
That was the part that really excited me and over the years
I've had a great chance to work in sports like golf, tennis,
snooker, motorsport and all with generally high performing
athletes. And now as I approach the the
Twilight part of my own career, it's great to be involved with
people that are really good at what they do.
Yeah. And John, what would you say?
I think it's really interesting. There's a lot of people becoming
more and more engaged than I guess performance.
Some folks might call it sports psychology, some people would
talk about how you engage for performance, etcetera.
But how do you think the perception has changed over the
years in regards to being involved with some of the
athletes and people who are participating in sport for
someone like yourself? In my lifetime, over the 30
years of my my applied work, I've probably seen a change.
I think in the early days and some sports you went to see a
sports psychologist if there was something wrong with you, or at
least that's what people thought.
But over the. But over the last 20 or 30
years, people have started to see that sports psychology can
make a small difference at elite level.
And we know that the number of good players we have in all
sports, a small difference can sometimes make a big difference
to the outcome. And I've always been fascinated
by the tiny marginal games that people search for.
And even if you look last night at The Players Championship,
mean with 1/2 an hour or an hour to go, any number of players
could have won and at the end, one shot separated the field and
Cameron Young was lucky enough to step over the line.
And so I think when the stakes are high and the differences
between the best players are small and sports psychology can
offer a small difference for the elite player, that can make a
big difference. And the more and more people
realize that, it becomes more and more accepted.
I would also say that there are some sports where sports
psychology is more accepted than others.
And in sports like golf and tennis and in rugby and and
motorsport, these sports have had good experience working with
people who are very, very keen to to develop the mindset and
other sports. And I have to say, sometimes
football could fall into this category.
There's still, at least in this country, a bit of skepticism
about just exactly how, let's just say the boys need to be
preparing themselves in the dressing room.
But I think over time and as we develop our understanding of
performance, probably football will change in the next 10 or 20
years as well. Yeah, I thought.
I mean, I think it's called too and and I would say that's
through my knowledge as a knowledge, I guess this
experience of listening to people like yourself, John,
rather than having the knowledge myself, but certainly a lesson
to experience like you. I think when I look at football,
there's so many and rugby protect, you know, there's lots
of different sports, I guess, but football's probably got the
potentially the biggest barriers in terms of, I may even just say
machoism, to be honest, where people think, well, that's got
nothing to do with the game. I need to be faster, I need to
be stronger, I need to be able to kick the ball.
But one of the observations I've I've had is, and it's a really
simple one, like someone's throwing goal and invariably
they kept the ball straight. They keep it a lot of times.
And I think to myself, I wonder what the last thing they think
about before they kick the ball is, because you would see that
in golf, right? If you're standing on the tee
and you patch her the bones with your driver, guess where your
drive is going to go out. I'm always been fascinated and
in a sport of football, it's that what's happening with
footballs as well, They're just seeing, well, they don't want to
have their last minute and effectively executing it.
Well, I think I can help you with that one because I have
actually worked in professional football with a couple of people
that have been in the striker role in the clubs.
And one of the arguments is as they get through one-on-one on
goal, what they tend to do is they revert back to some of the
instructions that have been drilled into them for years,
like hit the target. Now if you have in your mind hit
the target, you're programming yourself to hit the ball in the
middle of the goal, But of course the goalkeeper is usually
there. So one of the things you might
do if you work through on goal instead of being dominated by
hit the target is to first of all try to relax and then
something have a a positive self talk instead of something like
pick your spot or look in place or pass it past the goalkeeper.
So I think having that better composure and having a positive
command that will allow you to pick the part and the goal that
gives you the best chance is miles better than hit the
target. But of course that's what people
still take it stay to this day. Another example that could be
let's keep a clean sheet. Well, that's actually quite
difficult to do because it can be, it can be that in the 1st 5
minutes of a game the referee might make a bad call, it's not
on VAR and award the penalty. And it might be that the
opposition have an expert penalty kick taker and they
might be able to head at exactly the right spot that no people
keeper can save and as a result you're 1 nil down after one
minute. So keeping a clean sheet then
becomes impossible through no fault of your own.
But listen, there'll be lots of examples where some what you
might call well meaning advice actually tends to be unhelpful.
Yeah, absolutely. And then John, when you started
working with, and I'll say are the performers, I know you work
with the general, general golfers and other people
performing sports. But if you look at elite
performers you've worked with, what surprises did you have when
you first started working with them?
What stood out to you? Well, what stood out to me was
how everybody as an individual and having worked in elite sport
for many years and having worked with lots of athletes in the
same sport, whether it be golf, tennis, motor racing or
whatever, motorsport, I would say what surprised me was the
amount of variation within people that were trying to do
the same thing. So well, let's talk about golf
because that's what this podcast is focusing on.
I found interesting that people trying to be elite performers,
either on the DP one or two or the USPGA tour, were very, very
different in the way that they went about it.
So some people would have a particular way of practicing and
playing and thinking that could be quite different from another
person that shared the same goal.
And I think what I found interesting was the challenge of
trying to help each person be the best version of themselves,
rather than having a mold or a particular framework that you
thought they should fit into. And do you think that a lot of
that at times has been driven by how coaching has been in golf
Where and, and really glad to know that I think we're away
from a lot of that method coaching that you tend to see
like people saying, well, you must swing it this way or that
way. But do you think the move away
from that type of coaching is going to support as well, with
people approaching things from a psychological perspective in a
way that suits them versus just trying to cook a car from other
people? Well, obviously I can't speak
for coaches, and I suspect there were lots of coaches with
different philosophies and approaches, just as there are in
the world of applied sports psychology.
But certainly at the elite level, if you think about it in
this way, if somebody's coming to me as a sports psychologist
or as a golf coach already as a good player, perhaps at the DP
World Tour or perhaps looking to get onto the USPGA Tour, they
must be quite good at what they do to be at that level in the
1st place. So for me, it doesn't make a
great deal of sense making wholesale changes to somebody's
product, which is already quite good.
For me, it's more about trying to make fame, fame adjustments
to get the best out of the person and how they might apply
the Golf Club to cover the collision of the club facing the
ball to bring about the picture that they need, that will allow
the ball to go on its journey, that gives the best solution.
So even though you might think that sports psychology and
coaching do certain things, and I'm sure they do, it's very much
for me, an individual solution that we look to try and make the
person the best version of himself.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I mean, I've
certainly seen that in in coaching.
And when you're talking about the psychology related to golf,
it's got to be personal because that's how you feel ultimately
in the golf course, right? It's not how someone else feels
and they might have an idea what might be going through your
mind. But ultimately you've you've got
to try to be the one that describes that emotion that you
go through. And that's something I've been
talking. I've got another podcast as
well, John, with a guy called Colin Gray.
And we're both at a different handicap spectrum.
So Colin plays off 27, a playoff one.
But what's interesting is we've got a lot of commonalities about
some of the things that can go wrong.
And what I've been saying at Colin and I think we're both
recognizing as I maybe come across these challenges less
often than Colin does. But there's definitely the same
things that are going through my mind when when things go wrong,
when I'm getting emotional about things.
Maybe I've had a good shot or maybe I've had a bad shot.
And then I respond in ways that can be really positive, respond
in ways that are really negative.
So do you see that vary a lot from people as well, even
whether it's elite or just regular golfers?
So what you've described isn't a surprise to me because although
you and your friend have different handicaps, you're
actually human beings and is a good chance you respond in the
same way. Unless of course you've been
taught or learned to do it differently.
And I often see the same reactions that you've mentioned
there with elite players. And what happens there is the
reaction that they have has an impact on their game.
But the only the the difference of course is they're playing at,
let's say, plus six of a handicap or, or they're about
if, if professionals had handicaps, of course.
But it's the same process because it's human beings that
we're talking about here. The only difference is the level
of performance is quite different based on physical,
technical, tactical experience and ability that's been built up
over time. And what do you think?
What do you notice about like on the elite side again, John and
and I wanted I mean, and you sort of saying that's a place to
everyone, but from the elite side, what kind of emotions do
come under the the top players minds?
What kind of thoughts go go through them when they're in the
here? But because I think it's really
super interesting for people, You know, a lot of golfers are
certain the players in a great space all the time, but it's far
from the truth, right? 100% It might look like when
you're watching somebody on the television that they're cool,
calm and collected, but there could be lots of things going on
inside the way that they're thinking at that moment in time.
And although elite athletes have the potential to have coping
mechanisms through their experience to do well, they're
still human beings and they will suffer the feelings of anxiety,
the worries, the doubts that they might have.
No human being is immune to stress or pressure.
But those people who have succeeded over time have learned
to cope. So even if you you read the best
players and in the sports that it's ever been, it's not that
they don't feel pressure because as a human being they will as
long as it's important to them. What you'll find is over time
they will have learned to cope in that pressure situation so
that rather than seeing as a threat, the sea is an
opportunity. If you've been enjoying the
show, please do remember to follow on your favorite podcast
platform and share it with a friend.
Now let's get back to the pod. They see as an opportunity to be
brave, to be calculating, to do their best, to showcase their
skills, and they're quite prepared to accept the results
as they fall. And that's that's really
interestingly, if you start work there, acceptance.
And I've a lesson to other podcasts, actually one with Carl
Morris, I'm sure you probably know really well and he talks
about acceptance so often it's frightening.
But what what does that actually mean from your perspective,
John? What is true acceptance when a
golfer's on the course and and it could be something good to
harm, so it could be something bad.
What does acceptance really mean?
I would say that acceptance means committing yourself to a
shot in a process, delivering all of your resources into
making that picture come alive. A man to judge yourself on the
effort. So listen, even the best people
are going to hit shots that are off target from time to time.
But if you have committed 100% to creating the collision
between the club face and the ball that will bring the picture
that you've seen in your mind to life to the expense of
everything else, then you must be satisfied with your effort as
a human being. So clearly people struggle with
that. If they focus on the result and
any number of things could get in the way, that produces
perhaps a poor result. But if you commit yourself to
the process, understand what that means, go through a pay
shot routine, visualize the start lane, have a good feel at
the setup, have a clear process about how the swing is going to
operate and unfold and how enough an UN unobstructed
delivery that club face. Then as long as you've done
that, you have to accept the fact that you've done everything
in your control. Now if you do all of that, the
chances are actually in your favour.
The chances are you will strike a more competitive shot with
perhaps less of a miss off target.
But irrespective of that, you need to judge yourself on what
you've done rather than the outcome of the shot.
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting.
I think it's so true that and again, coming back to even the
handicapped part, golfers who are maybe beginners versus
absolutely true elite right at the top of the game.
If you, what you're saying is if you judge it based on where they
got the ball goes, that's not necessarily going to produce a
great feeling because you, as you rightly point out, you could
have done everything, but something happens.
Something happens. It just means that the ball
doesn't doesn't land where you were looking for.
You may have been a yard out on a bounce, you may get a bad
bounce, a good bounce and and something different happens.
There's no point. And, and I guess judging
yourself right is ultimately what we tend to do is you judge
yourself and you're potentially you judge a character based on a
golf show, which is just ridiculous.
That's actually interesting for me because it's so very true.
Because when you hear some of the negative self talk on a
Saturday in the middle of the bounce game at your own club,
I'm pretty sure you ever heard that yourself.
Where people are condemning themselves for the result that
they've had and how stupid there are to hit it in that particular
spot. Rather than actually thinking
more about perhaps choosing a different shot that reduced that
possibility and committing themselves to that process so
that they can survive mentally and continue on the game.
Yeah, it's funny, I played with a guy last year and I wouldn't
even say the course. It's not, I live in England.
No, it's not that. Yeah, I was back up in Scotland,
but I'm not going to say what course I was.
I was playing a competition and I met this guy in the first T
and and honestly has his drive kind of OK done the right hand
side. He's on the rough tries to hurt,
I think A5 word or something out that off doesn't know how to
agree goes in the Dutch. I was we would call it a reborn
goes in the barn. Guess I had to say again goes in
the next barn. Honestly made about 12 in the
first door. But the part that really made me
laugh, and I don't mean that his score was when he had the second
shot and the barn. He was going mental himself and
I'm like, you've only just had you're saying short and he's
like buried himself all the way down the rough trudging towards
the Dutch. That was hilarious.
And I kind of reflected on, I thought, God, I'm sure I've done
that plenty of times myself at different parts their owns, but
very rarely, thankfully the first hall and they say short of
the day. Well, that's good advice because
when when you work at the top level, there are the players
there are actually trying to do the same thing.
They're trying to stay in the game for as long as they can.
So you can't win an event in round one or round two, but you
can play yourself out of it. So quite often the top players
will try to find a position where they make the cut
comfortably without taking too many risks.
And then as you've heard people referring to this Saturday as
moving day, and then if you can continue the momentum such that
you're in the conversation with a few holes to go.
Your job is to deliver your best shots.
And your job is to see where the cards fall and then be satisfied
with your effort, knowing that if the cards fall your way, you
might just step over that line. Yeah, and, and I think you
mentioned John will go back and touch on it.
You've talked about how people can find ways to cope when
they're feeling emotional, they're feeling stressed,
they're feeling nervous. I mean, what are some of those
techniques I think you've touched on like pretty short
routine, or should I say pretty short, Maybe preparation is the
way you put it. What kind of things can people
and their own golf do practically to help themselves
through those times where they do feel nervous, where they do
feel anxious, they've no good positive thoughts when they're
standing over the ball. So people often have negative
thoughts over the ball when they feel uncertain about the shot
that they're trying to make. And that could be because
there's potential huge consequences at the end of it,
or it could be a difficult shot. So one of the things that we're
making work on is we first of all, get people being mindful of
the hazards and they work out the area of the golf course and
the target that they think would be a greater margin for error.
So in other words, they might pick a slightly easier shot to
execute because that's one way to reduce the anxiety levels.
Then after that, they might try to remember a few times where
they've had a particular shot like that in the past that had a
successful outcome. They might just try to reflect
on the swing that they've made and what it felt like as they
were delivering the club base on the ball.
And then after that, they probably have a a clear picture
of the start lane and the shape, the eye that is the natural
shape or the shape they're trying to produce.
And they probably have a couple of keywords that they said to
themself about the importance of staying committed to the shot.
And then when the swing unfolds and they've made contact and
they've given it full commitment to be mindful of the fact that
they will accept whatever they take because they've given it
their best effort. So over those few simple
instructions, what you're doing is you're increasing the
likelihood that a reasonable shot will emerge.
And if you do that, you reduce the destructive shot, which
tends to trigger the poor emotionality that then colours
the rest of the game. Yeah.
And what I'd love to you talk about, John, is I think what
people expect has nearly become on a podcast like that's sort of
another one. There's there's a few sort of
golf you can a mental approach to golf podcasts out there.
And obviously my own podcast is more generic.
But I think what can happen is that people think they'll join a
podcast, there wasn't, and they'll take away us advice
about maybe breathing, maybe pretty short routine, some of
the points you've mentioned, and they'll give it a bit of a go,
maybe in a medal. And then it all falls apart and
they go, ah, it's never going to work.
So in your experience to bed those practices and how long
does it typically take your average golfer and then maybe an
elite golfer to bed and the practice and not necessarily get
it right every time because that's probably impossible, but
to get it right more often than not, how long would it take
typically? So very good question and it
depends on a number of factors. It will depend on how strong
your existing habits are. So if you've got strong negative
habits at the moment, that's obviously going to take a little
bit longer to change those habits and the habits that you
would prefer. The next thing that I would say
is it will depend on your commitment and the amount of
time to practice thinking in the way that you prefer.
So if you think about it, if somebody was a coach and said,
look, I think we really need to maybe be changing this part of
your technique. It might be with a plane of the
swing, it might be a great change set up.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that that may take some
weeks, months, possibly even years to may be changed in a way
that was seen a noticeable improvement.
But when you think about it, people may have been thinking
negatively that entire life. So it could actually take quite
a bit of time. So the research on this would
suggest that you're looking at probably 12 to 18 months before
you can see a statistical improvement, a measurable
difference and some of the some of the thinking that you might
want. Now bear in mind, to have a
significant difference or a measurable difference, that's
going to be quite difficult because those people that study
statistics will know that they have a significant difference.
In a test of that sort, you've got to produce something that
can be measured over time and have reasonable level of
confidence. What I need to tell you is quite
often elite players are looking for differences that are
actually much smaller than what would be termed statistically
significant. So the bottom line to the
question is, if you're looking for certainty, you are looking
at probably 18 months or so on average to make measurable
differences. But if you're looking for grass
roots, if you're looking for green shoots of recovery, you
should be able to see these over a few weeks and months.
And as long as you grasp those green shoots and choose that
direction to travel in, you're more likely to be on the path
for the year or 18 months. And the great thing we have
about golf, of course, is unlike gymnastics or swimming, the
career can be quite lengthy. So you can be 30-40, fifty,
6070. In fact, I believe you had a
senior golfer on your podcast from West Shore not long ago who
is an ex leg example of somebody who plays a high level for
decades. So the truth is that in a game
like golf, there's usually no shortage of time.
Yeah, and John Johnson shot their best friend of his life
when he was 68 short 61. I mean, that's incredible, isn't
it? Absolutely incredible, but
unsurprising because of the features of the game of golf and
the way that if you stay reasonably fit and healthy then
and you've got time to practice particularly short game, then
there's no reason why you can't see the scores coming down.
And then Johnny, I think what's really interestingly, I mean you
are and I want to ask you some questions about your own golf.
You're a very, very good golfer yourself, but home, and this is
no quantifiable, try and ask a better question.
If you looked at let's say your average club golfer who's
probably a 15 to 20 handicap, they'll probably want to
improve, they want to get better versus let's say like A5
handicap. Is there some, and this is a
generalism obviously, but is there some key things that are
most likely different between those two golfers?
They might be really similar physically.
They might hit the ball generally very similar, but one
is, you know, all 1520 handicap, another one's all five.
What strides do you think the 500 coppers most likely made?
As well as technique but from a mindset perspective?
Well, I think the five handicapper probable has more
experience and course management.
Don't even rule that out. And obviously it's a
hypothetical question and knowing what I've said about
individuality, again, I would be guessing quite a bit here.
But what I would say is that it's the same issues that human
beings have such that they lose focus or they lose
concentration. With A15 handicapper, that's
going to produce a worse shot. A5 handicapper will still
produce a bad shot. Even if an elite player or a two
player has a poor focus, that's going to produce a slightly
poorer swing for them, which for them would give them a poorer
shot because obviously that's the same process that we go
through as human beings. It's just that the levels are
different and an off centre strike for A2 pool might take
the ball 25 yards off target. An off centre strike and a poor
swing for the five handicapper might take the ball 152030 hours
off target. Also, it's going to be a lot
shorter. The 15 handicapper can have a
catastrophe where they might hit the ball 20 meters.
Yeah, yeah, and then and then it comes back to what's the
reaction to that, right. And typically and certainly my
own game is of goal better. It doesn't happen all the time.
But if I look back at when I was a junior and I think about some
of the the mad crazy rounds of hard and even still, you know,
that harms these days, I'm sure. But like it's if I'm gonna take
situation or a poor situation, I probably choose the better short
more often, though, than I used to.
And it's not about doing it all the time, right.
That is actually just doing it more often than perhaps you
would have in the past. And that should help you get
forward. Like, for example, say you've
whited the trees. You've not got a great lie.
You've not really got a great line Beagle.
Oh, do you know what, I can get a four iron out here.
But actually, as I've got more experienced, as you said in the
game, think a little bit more clearly, more often they'll go,
do you know what? I need to just get an E iron
bunt to decide. That'll leave me something to
the green, get up near the green.
I've got a good chance of chopping a pot even for myself.
So I think that it's definitely an evolution for people.
But to me it's something that everyone can definitely put in
place regardless of handicappers.
You can try assess how you're thinking and how you're
approaching the emotions that are attached to a good or bad
shot, and certainly look at ways you can improve and take the
right choice and the right decision more often in the
future. I think over time you you'll
learn to do that and some people are faster learners and others
of course. But when you even watch the top
players and they taught me when we talked about the see The
Players Championship last night, even the best players are going
to make mistakes. That's important that you don't
follow one mistake with another one and making a boogie that
happens, you move on and you accept that, you swallow it.
But if you make a double, that slows you down and it means that
you've followed one mistake with another, which probably means
that perhaps decision making or clarity.
I thought at that time maybe something to look at, but of
course you'd need to probably speak to each person
individually to see what they were doing at the time because
not all double S happen from multiple mistakes, but most of
them do. Yeah.
And it's interesting, John, like I've been really deflecting us a
lot recently with the conversations of hard to call
and especially because more one, we're doing this other podcast
together, but also we're both trying to improve our own golf.
And to me, as amazing when I reflect back and when I try to
be in the moment now when I'm playing, even in a bounce game,
because I try to make my the majority of my practice on the
course. And when I practice, I do as
much as possible under competition conditions.
And the one that's obviously hard.
But in the summer, I can do it. But let's say I do make a silly
ball game. I must agree with a wedge can't
get up and down. I go the next tee invariably
almost every time In the past, especially when I was younger,
my next thought would be right and he smashed a chaifed in here
and he had an amazing saying, sure.
And he had it close. I need to make birthday.
I needed us. I need to do that.
Whereas what I'm really looking to do now is I come off that
green, get my frustration out the way.
So I might have to swear word to myself, you know, I'm still
annoyed, but by the time I get to tea, I'm like, right, what is
the shot I need to hurt versus the drivers coming straight and
I'm going to try and smash it down the middle.
So is that something you think that people can be more aware of
in their game and and actually make good difference on quite
quickly? Well, I think that's something
to to work on. It sounds like you've done the
progress there. One of the things I'd say is if
somebody makes a bogey and say, well, I'm good enough to try and
make up for that bogey, you can't make up for something
that's happened because if you didn't have the boogie and you
had the body, you'd be one shot better.
So anybody that thinks along those lines is getting tied into
the scoring we're thinking rather than the performance
we're thinking. So how you've described handling
maybe a soft boogie, perhaps the weight in your hand that you
might not expect, probably a good thing.
And I would definitely think that most people should have a
plan for how they cope with frustration and disappointment,
where what they think is an easy short, an easy haul hasn't come
down that way. It's about what you do
afterwards rather than ruminating on the mistake.
Yes, amazing. Totally.
Last year I done it done experience on the last two on a
competition where I made a name on a par 5.
And what I found fascinating was I was telling someone a story
about my junior days where I'd launched A5 wood into the
railway and a few other things at times without club, including
stopping it. And I was like you've got to be
kidding me. I've done exactly the same thing
as I did when I was a junior where I've had a bad shot and
the immediate thing is I'm just going to hit the next one better
versus just really stopping and saying we are saying that was a
really bad shot. Are you actually trying to have
the right shot here? Have you got the right club out?
So have you seen that with players where you know they make
a bad mistake and they go, look, I'm just doing the wrong thing
here and they just check out, stop, come back and then say,
right, I'm going to try something different versus I
just need that show perfectly. Well, I think that's where they
want to get to. I think once you've made a
mistake, you want to be clear enough thinking about
understanding why the mistake happened.
So yeah, you can get your swing swing on video and yet you can
see the club pace was open, yet you can see you've started on
the right and it's gone fade and high and slice and out of bones.
And that's fine. But what's more important is to
think, well, what was I thinking about?
The tame disrupted the rhythm and the flow of that swing.
And if you weren't sure that it was the right shot, then that
uncertainty can quite easily manifest itself into the poor
swing. So what that means is it's not
necessarily a technical issue, it's the fact that the
preparation and thinking beforehand didn't put you in the
right place to allow the good swing to unfold.
Yeah. And it's fascinating, John, if
you think about it, and I'm sure you've been in this situation,
sometimes you'll you'll be in a short and you could be in a
really good position score wise, whatever that means for you
personally. Everybody's definite in that
regard, of course, with what kind of scores they think they
might be wanting to score. But it's incredible to me that
sometimes you're coming down the last two or three holes and
you're on an absolute charge and nothing gets in the way and you
close it and you don't even think about it.
And then other times when you might not even be on as good a
score, there's something your brain is just tracking a set of
emotions that make you doubtful or you want the outcome so much
or whatever that is. And it just gets in the way.
It's incredible how that can come.
And you don't even expect her. Well, I think for most people it
is related to outcome. So if you're on a good score, if
you might be two or three under par, or you could be two or
three over par, if you're a higher handicap is still a
brilliant score for you. And you want to somehow just get
over the line. So that consequence then gives
you a fear of what happens if you don't.
And then what then the reaction would be to try to make extra
special sure or to think about the technique that's going to
get you there and you've actually disrupted the flow that
you go through to deliver the performance that you have up to
that moment. So the solution there is to try
wherever possible to acknowledge the fact that you're doing well
and to enjoy the fact that you're there, but also to think,
well, if I am enjoying it so much and a little bit anxious
that I want to get over the line here with a good score and not
threw it away, then I just need to be pick my shots carefully
and remind myself that my job is to go through all of my same
processes. Commit perhaps to an easier shot
such that I can function effectively and it gives me the
best chance of getting over that line I'm so desperately keen to
do. Absolutely.
So then, John, we've not really talked about your own golf.
What role does golf play for you now in your life?
So I love the game of golf. I find it an amazing challenge.
And just because I'm a sport psychologist doesn't mean that I
always get everything right. From a mental point of view.
Sometimes it can be quite frustrating actually, knowing
what I should be doing. But as a human being, suffer in
the field case everybody has, you know, you don't always get
it right. I suppose the advantage I'd
probably have is I know what I should be doing.
And if I can find a way to carry that out, it probably gives me a
good chance of doing well and know that I've in private
practice and I can please myself a little bit more.
With the time that I've got, I can practice a little bit more.
I can work on the areas again that I don't think are good
enough for me. And I can get great pleasure
trying to get better at what I do.
Brilliant. And what handicap are you
playing off these days, John? So I'm currently plus one at the
moment, but my handicap used to be lower than that and over the
last couple of years I haven't played as well as a mate.
So now that I've got a bit more time to practice, I'm hoping
that I can start to play a little bit more of the good
shots and I'm capable of. I just need to try and get them
all together working in the tournaments that matter.
And what kind of competitions are you going to be playing on
in the future? So over the last few years I've
played in the Scottish seniors events and the British senior
events and really enjoy doing that.
It's a good community, a good community of good players,
people that are keen to do well. You get to some good golf
courses and and it's always a great challenge to scoot as low
as you can on some of the best courses in the country.
So I'll probably be playing in the Scottish Series and then I
might play in some events further afield as well.
Oh, wait. And inside the Scottish Seniors
Golf Society. That's right.
The first event is at Barassi and I think the 20th and 21st of
April. And then there are other events
right the way through the season, there's an order I made
it to play for and if you're lucky enough to do well and that
you may even play in the European Championship team or in
the Home Internationals team. And I need to ask a question,
John, have you played any of those competitions yourself?
Yeah, I've played in the European Championship in Estonia
a couple of years ago and I've played twice in the home
internationals for Scotland as a senior.
Fantastic. So what were those experiences
like? Unforgettable.
The first one was down in Wales where we had the the men's home
internationals, the women's home internationals and they had a
joint home internationals where they combined the points and
Scotland won the men's and they won the joint that year, which
was a great event and something everybody that played for
Scotland was really proud of. And that same year I played at
an Estonian talent for Scotland and we qualify for the A flight.
We had a couple of great results and we just lost out very
narrowly to England and our group and our, I think it was a
semi final and then in the bronze medal playoff match we
came up against an Irish team that was really strong.
And so but it was good to get to the latter stages of that.
And then a couple of years ago I played at Castle Rock, an
island, and that was a beautiful venue and that took place in
September and amazingly the weather was absolutely perfect.
I can just remember it being like a summer's day.
We were in T-shirts, there's not a cloud in the sky, and it was
just a great course and a great event played and those matches
there against some really, really good players and at the
time of my life. Fantastic.
Yeah. And I mean, for people looking
for information, I think there's there's information on the
Scottish golf website that takes you to the Scottish Seniors Golf
Society web pages as well. And I mean for me it was a
really easy process. I am going to qualify
effectively as a junior for that category in the summer, John, so
I'll be looking to join you. I think the first event I can
play is that I think it's Erskine at the end of July.
So looking forward to that. But it's a really, really great
series. There's lots of brilliant
competitions as you say, and a lot of really good golfers as
well. And I think the handicap limits
about 10 for and on the event. So it's a real good mix of
different guys and and players have been around the Scottish
circuit for a long time. Listen, I've really enjoyed
playing the Scottish Seniors golf.
When I first qualified many years ago now, I was a little
bit skeptical, thinking it was going to be old guys playing
Tuesday and a Thursday. And I've got a rude awakening
indeed. There was some really, really
good players there that took it seriously, practiced hard,
trained hard, wanted to get better, took lessons, and there
was a really, really good group of good players and 1, you know,
group that I've been pleased to be part of and to join in.
And I think also I've enjoyed the fact that anybody who does a
good score gets congratulated by everybody in that community.
And I certainly felt a warmth and a togetherness in that
group. That's something I didn't always
feel when I was grown up, let's say at boys or at men's level
where everybody was desperate to do well.
Everybody in seniors is desperate to do well, but I
think when people get a bit older, they get appreciative of
other people's effort as well and you can celebrate the
achievement some of your friends in a way that perhaps you didn't
when you were younger. Yeah, it's almost like goodbye
to the football game, John. It's for that classic thing
between the two managers or the players.
They hated each other for 30 years and then they retire for
they gave them their best pals. It's incredible.
Well, it's certainly a good series of events and anybody who
is in that age group and wants to experience it, I would
certainly recommend that they threw their hat into the ring.
Absolutely. And then for yourself, John, I
mean, you've gone through this, that's pursuit in your life,
helping people. What's those challenges you and
the golf course? What things do you feel that you
might still struggle with your maybe it's your focus or
whatever. What kind of things still come
up as challenges for yourself? So in terms of my own game, it's
always a challenge to get better at short game.
And my career I've worked with some really good players and
coaches and I've always found that with all of the amateurs
that I know, the closer they get to the whole, the worse they are
in comparison to the best players in the world.
So I I would like to sure I'd like to hit the ball far further
and more consistently if I could.
I would definitely like to control the ball flight and the
shapes are the better. I would 100% like to be better
at short game, chipping, punker play.
I would 100% like to be better at putting and all of the
idiosyncrasies and skills that you need to be a top player over
time. And personally, I've had a
massive sense of satisfaction when you work hard at a
particular skill and you see improvement.
And, and I'm happy to say that I think I've done that on some
parts of the game. But there are so many parts of
this game that you know I could be another 20 or 30 years, God
willing, and I'll still be trying to get better at them.
Yeah, absolutely. So then just on that note, what
does a satisfying render golf look look like for you, John?
So a satisfying render golf for me is 1, where most of the time
or as many times as I can, I picked the right shot and I've
committed fully to that process. And when I've struck the ball,
the image of the shot that comes off the club face is pretty
close to the image that I had pictured prior to setting up to
the shots. In other words, what I try to do
is I make the picture of the shot come to life.
So you would try to make the reality match the mentality of
the short picture. And for me, satisfaction comes
when you picture a shot that you think you want to play.
You put all your resources into it and in for some reason the
shot comes out just as you'd imagined.
So that to me is absolute satisfaction.
That gives me a huge sense of achievement.
So a satisfying round of golf would be 1 where I've managed to
do that a few times. But I went and then just to drop
up here, John, what is sport and in this case golf, but sport in
general, because you worked with a lot of different types of
athletes, what's that taught you about people?
Oh, I think when it comes to elite sport particularly, that
applies across the board. If you sign up to be connected
to sport, you should expect sport to have highs and lows, to
give you good times and to give you challenging times.
And I think you need to learn to embrace both.
And my closing comment would be absolutely enjoy the highs, but
learn from the lows so that your next high will happen sooner and
perhaps last longer than the last one did.
Austin, John, thanks so much for coming on.
It's been a real pleasure to get to meet you and also to have you
on the show. I really appreciate it and look
forward to seeing you in August or July.
I think it's for that Erskine event.
Yes, Sir, I'm sure you'll do well.
Thank you very much for having me on.
No problem. Thank you.
I'd like to thank. John Mathers for his time and
for sharing such an honest and insightful look at the mental
side of the game. I genuinely took away a lot from
that conversation. I hope you did too.
If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to follow subscribe
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like you. I'm Ross McGuire.
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