Welcome back to Line by Golf, the podcast made from the
connections we find through a great game of golf.
I'm your host, Ross McGuire, and today I'm joined by Todd Graves,
one of the leading voices behind the single playing swing and a
man who spent more than a decade learning directly from the
legendary MO Norman. We talk about Todd's journey
through Professional Golf, the VHS tape that changed his life
and how meeting MO Norman led him to dedicate his career to
teaching a simpler way to swing the Golf Club.
We also go deep into whom Norman really was away from the maths
and why is legacy still fascinates golfers around the
world. Let's go over to Todd.
Hey, Todd, great to have you on the podcast.
Thanks for joining. Thank you, Ross.
Great to be here. And Todd, we're going to jump
straight into MO Norman. So what's the influence of MO
Norman being in your career today?
MO Norman is a very big part of my life, but you know, it was
mostly because of my desire to, to hit a golf ball better.
You know, that I was on, I was on a search, I was on a mission
I was on. I was on a, a mission to get
better at golf. And I tell people that no one at
before I met MO, no one had spent more money than me on golf
instruction. And I worked with the best
instructors in the world. I didn't know I was, I got fly
out worse. I got worse before I got better.
And then I got very lucky to meet.
I saw a video of MO first and then a friend of mine was
playing the Canadian Tour and he, he brought a video of MO to
my off or to my apartment and said, you got to see this guy.
And I said, yeah, I said, and I and by the way, I knew a lot
about the golf swings that worked with the best instructors
in the world. They, they are all trying to
help me. But then I see MO and he was
doing something so radically different, but from where I saw
it, from where I was, it looks so much easier, so much so made
so much more sense to me that I started practicing like MO for a
year before I met him. And I immediately got better.
I started getting better and better and better.
So it literally, I think I was just one of the luckiest guys in
the world to be able to at that time, run into MO Norman or run
into a video of MO at the time. And that, that's kind of the
story goes from there. Wow.
And then we've concentrated to the more Norman side of your
journey and your life and your career, Todd.
But how did you get into the game?
Where to? Start.
Yeah, I mean, I was, I was 11 years old.
I my, my, we kind of, I wasn't, I was middle class in living
Illinois. And we lived across the pond
from a golf course. And so, you know, my, my average
afternoon with my buddies was to take a little boat across the
pond and fish out golf balls that people were hitting into
the lake from the, from the Country Club and steal the golf
balls. We run out to the other side of
the, the pond and hit them back in the pond.
And, and that's kind of when I started all, all my buddies
would hit golf balls. And then I really didn't get
really into the game until we moved to Oklahoma, where I, I
grew up down the street from a golf course And my dad, I mean,
you wanted to talk about a great babysitter is just drop your
kids off at a golf course and go to work because we'll have
plenty to do. So my dad, my mom and dad would
drop me off at the course and I would have to find something to
do. So I took a job at the course
helping, you know, do whatever I could so I could play golf for
free. And man, I just, I grew up, I
grew up around a golf course and I, and I think it's a great way
for a kid to grow up. So that's, I got started.
So that's about, that was about when I was 11-12 years old.
And then take it from there. I, I played, you know, I started
playing competitive golf, Junior Golf, love the game, love this.
I love the solitary, the the solitary style of the game where
you know, it's really all about you, you and you're dealing with
your own emotions and your own. I, I was kind of an introverted
kid that was very introverted. I I still, I still, you probably
can tell it I'm introverted, but I, I'm, I'm relatively
introverted when it comes to these things.
So, so that's just, I mean, I, I, I love it.
I I watched my, I have Academy here in Edmond, OK, And I
watched the kids out there and I can tell the kids that were like
me, right? They just, they go to the corner
of the rings. They they're into themselves or
yeah, I love it. Brilliant.
And then children that transaction towards, I mean,
what was your progress like in the game?
How did it come around for you? You mentioned that you've
probably spent more money, you think that anybody else in the
world on lessons, but what was your transaction and your your
progression in the game like those years?
Yeah, you know, I mean, I was a good high school player.
I I won a few tournaments in high school.
So growing up I was was known as a pretty good player.
I'm not a very big guy. So I mean, it's not that I hit
the golf ball a long distance and overpowered golf courses.
I just, I really was a technician more than anything of
of making. I mean, I hit, I was always a
pretty good player, just all all the way around.
And I got a couple of college scholarship offers, but they
weren't any larger colleges. So I wanted to go to Division
One school. My dad was a doctor, my mom had
a, a master's degree in English. So very, very educated family.
So my parents were really oriented more towards get a
great education. So I just went to Oklahoma State
University and had no, I really didn't play golf for the first
year, but I got invited to play the internal golf tournament,
which was just, I don't know if you know, Emerald golf here in
the in the states, but but the they basically the fraternity
guys in the non fraternity guys play a tournament and I won that
the intermeral tournament and I started getting the bug again to
play. So I went to the college golf
coach there and I said, Hey, I spots on the team and they
they're right. At the time, Oklahoma State was
the best college golf team in the in the country.
And of course they're like, we don't have room for you.
We we're too good for you. So, so, so I ended up that
summer going down to Norman, OK, which is the rival school of
Oklahoma State and working at a golf course there.
And it just, again, I, I think my life has been very
interesting. If, if I mean people,
everybody's lives, if you look at them, you know, there are a
lot of serendipitous things that happened in your life.
But I was working in the golf shop, I'd say bag room at this
golf course in Norman, OK, where Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma
is. And Todd Hamilton and a guy
named David Sheffield, Todd Hamilton won the Open
Championship in 2004. Todd came out there, He was on
the team at OU. He came out there to play the
back nine. And I saw him out there and I, I
really didn't know who Todd was. And I end there on the team.
But I asked the head pro, do you care if I go out there and play
with these guys? We're really slow in the
backroom. Nothing's going on in the golf
shop. They said, go ahead.
You know, it's getting dark anyway, go ahead.
So I went out there to played a lot back nine with them and I, I
beat them both of them. And after that night holds, Todd
says to me, he goes, who are you and what are you doing here?
And I said, well, I was trying to play golf at Oklahoma State,
couldn't really figure that out. And I came down here the the pro
here is a good friend of mine. He goes, well, do you want to
try to get on the team that owe you?
And I said sure. He goes.
So the next day I get a call from the the assistant coach at
OU and he says, hey, would you want to play a walk on
tournament? Do you walk on the team?
And I said course. So I got on the walk on.
Now it was a sixth round event and I made a 10 footer to win.
I, I barely won the tournament, barely won.
And as I walked off the green, the the pro, the the assistant
coach put his arm, his name was Jim Bagwan put his arm around me
and said his thank God you made that putt.
I said why? And he goes, because we had this
entire tournament to get you on the team, we had to have a way
to get you on the team. We put the entire tournament
together for you and, and I was the first walk on it at the
Rooster, Oklahoma. So that's kind of my story of
how I started playing college golf.
And for for the in the UK who maybe don't know what you're
talking about. I know a lot all perfects.
I've listened to a few pods with people in the States, Todd, but
am I right in saying that what you're talking about is that a
walk on as if you don't have a sport at that university or that
team, you can go and play a tournament and if you won the
tournament, you effectively get not just a place in team, but a
university sport as well as how it works.
Yeah, it's a tryout, right? It's a tryout.
And so I'm not, I'm not sure how many people were in the
tournament, to be honest with you.
There might have been 50. I don't remember how many.
Anybody can try out. Anybody can try out.
So yeah, I'll have to look at that.
But it's been a long time. But yeah, so it's a try out.
You know, you can walk ONS on football teams will have try
outs for walk ONS and and it's a way to take the kids who have a
lot of talent that don't get overlooked coming out of high
school. I'm not sure if they still do
it. Be honest with you.
I'd have to talk to a coach who's a good friend of mine if
they still do a walk on turn up there.
But yeah, but yeah, it's it's it's a.
You mentioned Oklahoma State, it's not where, not at the same
time, of course, because I know where Rocky Fowler went.
They've got a really, really good team as well, right, You
know? At the time I was there with
Scott were playing Bob Tway, Andy Dillard, Mark Hayes, you
know, just it's just an endless number of players.
That's why that's why I couldn't get on the team there.
They were just too just way too good.
You know, Brian Watts. I mean, there was so many great
players from Oklahoma State, but but yeah, so that's, that's kind
of how I started playing college off and I wasn't a great college
player, you know, I mean, trust me, I, I was, I didn't, I didn't
have a lot of real Junior Golf experience other than I'd played
the local tournaments and stuff and been very good and local
stuff. I, it wasn't nationally ranked.
I, I didn't have, my parents didn't have the, the wherewithal
to the money to for me to travel and it just my game.
It wasn't just like that in my household, but I loved at at OU,
being at OU because I got to play with Todd Hamilton and guys
like Todd that that elevated my ability to, to see what a good,
good golf really is. And then in 1991, actually in
89, I broke my hand and I so my lap my last year and a half of
College of college golf, I couldn't play.
So the coach made me the assistant coach of the team.
We won the national championship in 1989.
I was the assistant coach on that team and then in 1990 I
turned pro and I played the Asian Tour.
I went straight over to Asia and played my first professional
tour. Did you go?
There was was Todd Hamilton, he played Asian Tour as well, so.
That's why I went there because, because Todd, you know, he had
been there a few years before I, I got there and Todd said, once
you come over, I'll show you, I'll show you the ropes of how
to, you know, be in Asia and stuff.
And I, I, I roomed with Todd for the first 3 or 4 events.
It's it's kind of weird how they at the time, how you would you'd
room with a guy, but if you missed the cut, he makes the cut
or whatever You're you're traveling in different,
different groups and stuff. But yeah, so I play, I room with
Todd and and, and hung out with Todd, but I, I just got to be
around so much good golf. It it elevated my game to be
around people that were better than me.
And, and I, I always put people to do that, even though I was
getting my butt kicked out there quite a bit, right?
I saw I got better, you know, I'd walk off the course and I'd
see guys do things like, I can't do that yet.
Like I need to, you know, And so you really see the standard of
golf you have to play. The first event I played in,
Bernhard Langer showed up and he was, I mean, I don't know how
old he was then. He's probably in his late 20s.
I don't even know. And you know, I watched this guy
in, in, in Hong Kong. I shoot 70.
I think I shoot, I shoot 77 the first round and he shoots 63
with a, with a triple on the last hole.
No, I take it back. No, he shoots 63 the first
round, he shoots 66 the second round, the triple on the last
hole. And I'm like, I don't have that
game. I don't have that right.
So so yeah, you learn a lot just from being around it, you know,
so. And towards just for the last
news that don't know who are maybe not my age as well because
I'm I'm turning 50 this year. But tot Hamilton won the 2004
Open Championship at Trenton, beat air nails in the playoff.
Yeah, fantastic player. And he had it's really
interesting to remember. One of the things that stood
about Todd was he talked about the fact and you're mentioning a
little bit towards that there. The fact for him was it didn't
matter that he hadn't won AUS, the PGA Tour event necessarily
recently or whatever. It doesn't matter.
He hadn't won a European Tour event.
It won so many times on the Asian Tour, the Japanese tour.
He was just used to 1 and it doesn't matter to him what
tournament it was. And I thought that was really
refreshing when he won that open as much.
As it was a shock. It made it clear that actually,
if you can one at golf, you can one anywhere.
Well, in the quality of golf, this so great everywhere.
You know that it's on every tour.
The guys that are on the European Tour, the Asian Tour,
those guys can play anywhere. It's just, it's just a matter of
playing well in whatever week you're playing.
You know, I, I, I saw so much great golf.
There was a guy named Frankie Minoza.
No one will probably remember Frankie, but but but they used
to let amateur, they used to let the Asian Tour, they used to
have more amateurs in the Masters and they used to let the
Order of Merit winners from these the tour, like Asian Tour
play in the Masters every year. And Frankie, I think played the
Masters numerous times because he always would win the Order of
Merit, the money title in Asia. And so there is these amazing
golfers over there that you're like, these guys are.
And he's he was Filipino, he's from the Philippines.
So there's these great golfers around the world And and, you
know, they don't we'd always see them because we watched the PGA
Tour and, you know, you watch maybe live or some of the bigger
events, but but there's so many good golfers in this world.
And and yeah, you play with those guys, you're like, this
guy's remarkable. You know, I I play this one
event. There's a Rodney Butcher, some
people may know Rodney. Rodney played on the PGA Tour a
little bit and I was playing with Rodney in the event.
We're playing a mini tour event down in Florida.
And I I hit, I hit a drive into this water on this par 5.
No, I actually hit my drive really good and hit my second
shot in the water. And so I take a drop and I take
a really bad drop in the wrong place.
I was just frustrated and I hit my next shot in the water and I
make double and I walk off. I walk off the green and Roddy
puts his arm around me goes Todd.
That's why we're on the mini tours right now.
And I thought it was great because I mean, it just you have
to raise your standards, you know, to play that level.
And if you do stupid stuff, you get stupid results.
And and, and I I'm not sure. I think if I had to go back, you
know, and play again, I would have to learn patience.
I think I just did. I was just, I was too impatient
and I think I still am, you know, so.
Brilliant. And then Todd, you mentioned
that you've gone through a lot of coaches, I guess in the past.
So what was that like in terms of what you were searching for?
And then we'll we'll definitely get to the point where
everything changed our own war and has involved in your life.
But what were you, I guess what was driving you?
What kind of frustrations did you hurt?
What was that part of your journey like for you?
Yeah, well, I always, so you know what you do?
I I think the, the, the, the way it started was you're like, OK,
who do the best players work with?
You know, if, if the best players in the world must have
the best coaches. So obviously access to the best
players and I had access to the best coaches.
So I started spending my time with guys like, you know, David
Ledbetter, Hank Haney, Mac O'Grady, Tom Anton, you know,
all these guys that we've heard about, you know, you're, you're,
you're doing you. And I'm not, I'm not saying I
worked with them that much. Maybe one lesson here.
But I, I really worked with Hank Haney more than any anybody.
And I give these guys a lot of credit.
Hank Haney is a brilliant instructor and he taught me.
If he wouldn't have taught me what he taught me, I wouldn't
know what I know about swing playing and I wouldn't know what
I know about MO Norman. So, so I give all these guys
plenty of credit for teaching the game.
It's, it's not an easy game to teach.
But what I ran into was the way my mind worked was why is there
not a singular model? Because the body is built a
certain way, It's anatomically built a certain way.
We all have two arms, 2 legs, you know, hands.
So there's no, there's no standardization of golf
instructions. So that was my first thought
process because one day I remember I was out there with
Hank one day and I and I, he goes stand closer to the ball.
And so I did and I worked on that for the entire day.
The next day I go out there, he's like, move away from the
ball a little bit. And I, and I said, how far do
you stand from a golf bike? You know, it was, it was like,
how, how do I know? Like how you know what, what?
So, so there's all these like question marks that we're not,
weren't getting answered. So there's this massive big
question mark over is there an easy way and a possibly a best
way to hit a golf ball and. Thanks for listening to Linked
by Golf. I also Co host a new podcast
with Colin Grey called Both Sides of Par.
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From drowsing practice habits to core strategy, mindset,
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Or go to bothpower.com. Now let's get back to the pod.
There's a lot of grain instructors out there.
I'm I'm very much, I'm very much my.
The way I think now after meeting MO and, and doing the
things I've done, I look at the golf swing is that we're looking
for the easiest way to get to impact.
That's the way I look at the golf stream now, because we're,
because the most important thing is just consistency.
If we don't, I don't care how far you get it.
If you don't have consistency, you're not going to be able to
have any predictability when you play golf.
So you know, so then, then my brain went to what's the easiest
way to take the human body consistently get to the moment
of impact. So every single time.
And then so that was more of my analytical approach.
So after, when I was instructed, I saw, I got, I got, I got to
find, well, I almost quit, you know, after I was, I had gotten
worse because after three years of working with all these
instructors, I wasn't even better.
I was getting worse. The sponsors I had all the guys
that were paying for my life to play Professional Golf, they
weren't going to, they're going to pay me anymore.
Goes to 75 out there, you know? And were you purely playing at
that time? So you were effectively playing
for 11 all through that? Well, and to the point where I
even took a bartending job in Dallas, TX because I was running
out of money and, and I, I wasn't good enough to make any
money playing and I was still working on my game.
I bartend at night and practice golf during the day because, you
know, I use the daylight. But.
It's like, you know, it's really hard when you're trying to do.
It's so difficult. But I was, I was passionate and
I was practicing as hard as I could.
I, you know, it was a good time in my life.
I wasn't married, you know, I didn't have any, any real
obligations there, you know, no kids or anything.
So heck, it's just golf and make trying to make a living.
So but yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that was the journey,
right? That was the journey.
And, and then when I met MO, then I, I got, I got really
lucky to meet, meet MO Norman. I was going to say that takes us
perfectly and to something changed in your life.
Clearly. So was it as simple as you saw
the video, then you meant more? What was that?
What was that transition period like for your your life and your
career ultimately, Todd? Yeah.
So you know, one of the things that we used to do at Hank Caney
Studio is, you know, the technology is great today, but
at the time we had ATV screen and a VVCR where you put that
big VHS tape in, right. And so we would.
We would draw a line on the screen with a, with a pen like
a, a dry erase marker. And then we would swing and we
we'd see if our plane line would line up on the line.
And I remember. Going to be great content for
Instagram. Can you imagine people, young
kids today are like. Well, even you.
Actually drew the screen. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly.
And, and it's so funny because at one time I did it with a,
with a, a permanent marker at my house with my girlfriend and she
walks in my house and I forgot I couldn't get it off the TV.
It was all, there's a line on there.
So I was watching TV with a line on there and she's like, why is
that line on the screen? I'm like, I I don't see it
anymore. Oh so yeah, but.
Absolutely. You're on plane.
The point is, were you on? Plane every every show we were
watching was on plane. I guess I don't know, but, but,
but so that we draw this line on the screen that we, we'd set up,
draw a line on the club and we'd go to impact and draw another
line and there was a separation between the two lines.
So you'd start on one plane and impact on the other.
And, and so we're trying to get the lines closer together,
right. But, but our process was to try
to get lower our hands lower at impact.
So, and I kept noticing the more the closer I get to the low
line, the worse I hit it. That was just, I would make an
answer. And it's so funny.
I was in the studio one day. This is down at Hank Caney
Studio. I don't know what year this was.
Had to be 949596 somewhere there.
No, it's probably 90. It's probably 9092, probably
around 92 right after his door. And a guy named Alberto Caneda.
Alberto Caneda became the president of PGA Mexico.
So Alberto is one of my college teammates and he comes walking
through there. He looks at me and he sees these
lines on the screen and I'm like, I, he goes, what are you
trying to do? I'm like, I am trying to get,
I'm trying to get back to this impact line.
He goes, why don't you just start your hands higher?
And I'm like, no, no, they keep telling everybody keeps teaching
me to put my hands down here, like close to my body.
So there's this like, you know, well, that was really the
catalyst to when I saw MO because it was about a year
later, Matthew Lane, my friend who was playing the Canadian
tour, great player, won the New Zealand Open in 1998, called
another college teammate of mine.
Matthew came down to Dallas. He had a he had a video about.
Now I knew who MO was and a lot of people knew who MO was.
But to me at the time, I was just mysterious character that
no one could get close to. You know, some guy that that
supposed to be great, but he may not even be real, right?
And and so Matthew says, Todd, you got to see this videotape
because it's a in Matthew, I really respected because we had
hit a lot of golf balls together and play a lot of golf.
And Matthew was a great ball striker.
And he goes, Todd, this guy's the best I've ever seen.
Yeah, the quote he used was he's a freak when he hits a golf
ball, how good he is. And so I I was like, I got to
see this. So he puts the tape in in the
VHSVCR and the very first thing I see is he's got the club on a
high point line. Like everything's lined up.
So what do I do? I grab my pen.
I stick it on the TV, draw a line and he start, starts on
that line and ends up right on it.
And I'm like, what the hell? I go, I, I've been, I, I've been
chasing this thing around and that's the best way to do it.
But he looked different doing it because he started high.
And you know which, which now we call the single plane.
But gosh, it just made so much sense.
So immediately, of course, you know me the next day, I'm out of
Hank Caney Studio with my hands high and Hank walks by and goes,
what the hell are you doing? And I'm like MO Norman, I go, I
think I've got it figured out. And he goes, he just paint just
kind of blew me off. But believe it or not, Hank had
a MO Norman video in his office and I was like, and, and they
would say things like, well, Moe's left-handed and he's, he's
autistic and stuff. I'm like, but he's got, he got 2
arms, 2 legs like I do, right. And and so I just, I just
started copying him. I just spent a year watching
that tape, drawing lines on the screen and copping MO and I got
I started getting better right away at all this.
All the problems I was running into from the conventional
standpoint went away. My back stopped hurting my I got
to impact consistently. I started hitting it more solid.
And I wasn't perfect. I had I had some issues.
My grip was still a little bit too strong.
My club face would close a little bit, but overall it
immediately improved my ability to consistently hit the golf
ball. So so to where I in 1995 I can,
I qualified for the Canadian tour.
I I got one for the Canadian Q school and I qualified and got
my Canadian PJ Jordan. So you were still playing then
when you you went through this transaction, You're still trying
to. I've been playing.
Golf, barely. I met MO and I met MO and that
kind of saved me. And then, you know, I met MO in
94, finally got to meet him in person.
And then and we'll talk about how great that was.
But but then I then I did qualify for today and tour a
year later. Wow.
And that takes a straight and So what was our first meeting with
more Norman like Gavin? Everything you you dread about
him and you teared and he was like this magical character he'd
only seen in video. What was it like when you
actually met him for the first time?
I get. Invited to Chicago to a clinic
where So there's a company called Natural Golf at the time
and Natural Golf was independent of MO Norman.
They had no idea who MO was, but there's a scientist that well,
I'll say a self-proclaimed scientist that that that had
started this company. And he was he was right on with
a lot of his his science with of of you know, the Golf Club
should be treated like a long hammer, right?
And it made sense because I really like so so is this
company natural? So I got of course, I got tied
in with them because they saw what I was doing.
They saw, you know, me setting up like MO.
So I get heavily involved with that company just trying to
figure out how we bring this method out to the world, help
people swing on a single plane. And so MO MO got involved with
that because MO was a really a validation of what all this
natural golf stuff was teaching. So I get invited by natural golf
to do a clinic with MO with natural golf in Chicago.
And so I I get my car and I drive to Chicago.
Now, I've been, I had been doing or doing my version of his swing
from that video for a year. So, yeah, So I mean, I look
pretty good, I guess. I don't know.
And at the clinic, so MO does this amazing ball striking
demonstration. First time I ever saw him in
person. And I always tell people there's
no way I can honestly describe how good the ball striking was.
And I'd trust me, I'd played with the best players in the
world over an Asian Tour. I'd been all over the world
playing. And the salt that the my first
impression was the sound of the golf ball, the way it came off
that club face. And you know, when a ball is
struck perfectly and every shot MO was hitting was sounded like
that, It was just an amazing sound.
So that was my first impression. And the ball flight was just
just in the same exact trajectory, no curvature, just
bullets just going out there just perfectly.
The first he he he starts hitting little wedge shots from
50 yards. The very first 3, there's a
little little sign target both of them, all three at the
target. And then and then by the end of
the clinic, he's just and he's talking away.
You know, he's doing his thing, talking away, throwing clubs
around, you know, doing his thing.
And then he grabs the driver and there's a, there was a pole and
there's a metal pole and it was about 250 carry to this pole.
The 250 numbers at the top. And the pole is probably 4
inches wide metal pole. And he was hitting drivers at
it. And it probably in, in the in
the 1st 10 drivers he hit, I bet you 4 of them you could hear the
Ding off the pole. They're all just going right out
the side. And I was like, I've never seen
you like this before in my life. And so.
And what we say, I mean, yeah, I was a clinic.
What was the dice and the people that were there as effectively
guests and customers? What were they thinking of?
Most people just, you know, standing in amazement is like
this can't be real. Kind of.
But and the guy in MO didn't look like didn't look like the
average golfer. You know, he his clothes were
tucked in. He barely wore a belt.
You know, he eat a cheeseburger and be on his shirt, you know, I
mean, and his clubs were scattered like it was a, like he
was just selling all his clubs on a, on a, on a side shop or
something. And, and here he was just, I
mean, with a perfect swing motion and just ripping golf
balls. And he's like so simple, so
simple, laughable, you know, golf so easy.
And so after the clinic, I walked up to him and I and I had
a whole question, a bunch of questions for him.
You know I'm I'm right. Yeah, no wonder.
I'm 28 years old at the time. And I said, how, how did you
learn to do that? Like he goes, he goes hard work,
can't buy it. I'm like, OK.
And, and I said, well, I said, do you care if I hit a couple of
your clubs? Because the clubs are laying
there. I grabbed his 8 iron and I
started hitting some shots. I said, watch me some balls MO.
And he goes, oh, it's me without a belly.
It's me without a belly. He started looking at me.
It's me without a belly. So I got kind of nicknamed
little MO, you know, that was kind of where it all started And
that, and then we, and then he saw, he saw my ambition and he,
he saw my passion for, you know, I actually said, I'm going to be
better. I'm going to be better than, you
know, I want to be better than you.
And so he saw what I was really trying to do it.
He saw my enthusiasm for and we just became friends that day.
And then I spent as much time as I could with him over the next
10 years. So just as much time as I dispel
them because you never stop learning.
And I, and I, and I was, I would, I would do things like
crawl between his arms before he'd hit and I'd go, let me go
see your hands and I'd grab his hands and see how they were
hinging. And I would, you know, if you
see it, see how his shoulders are moving out.
I would just, I was trying to get, I was trying to feel what
he was feeling to hit a golf ball.
And I, and I did a pretty good job of interpreting all that.
Of course, I've done a lot more research and stuff on exactly
what goes on in human motion to do it.
But but anyway, that was my, that I became a mission of mine
to, to learn his swing number one.
But then I became then I fell in love with a guy because because
he's just such a unique guy and he was such a misunderstood
person. And so I just fell in love with
him too. And we just became friends and
Canada. And I was going to ask that very
question as well, Todd, I mean, what things would you say were
most must understood about more because there's, you know,
there's the. It was, I guess there's.
Always views of how people are, but what was your if you haven't
spent so much time with him personally?
He was a very gentle, care, caring person and he and he
really, really was a good human being.
He just didn't, he didn't know how to relate to people.
He just didn't know, he really didn't know how to connect to
people. He didn't know that that, you
know, relationships were kind of a two way St. you know, he just
but but but but he was he really did, he really was a good
hearted person and he did he did a lot of good things in the
world and and he just was just misunderstood for that because
he wasn't he wasn't social, He wasn't very introverted and and
people kind of took that as being either angry or maybe not
friendly or be hard to get close to which he was hard to get
close to. But once you're in his inner
circle, you know it's totally, it is a totally different world
in there. Yeah.
And I mean, I don't, I certainly wouldn't proclaim to know a lot,
but in a lot of circumstances and everybody is different, but
people who are affected by autism, that's quite a common
reaction that is hard for people to get close with them because
they do find it hard to relate to people.
So it's actually not unusual, but you're talking back then,
it's so many years ago and we were so badly educated as AI
guess a world around autism and we're still not there yet, but
definitely did not know enough back then.
Yeah, yeah. And they're so they're so
involved in internally with their with in their, they're in
their own world and. And.
And he certainly was, you know, by the time, you know, after,
you know, after six or seven years and he was on the cover of
Golf Digest in 95 and then he was, I want to say forest.
But we, we'd, we'd get him out and do clinch with them and, and
do things with them and put him in the public more he became
better and, and more he, he, he became more accepting of his
environment. You know, if you talk to his
best friends in Canada, they would tell you about a whole
different, entirely different no, Norman than than we would
see in the public. They would say, yeah, he he he
jokes around with us. We play cards with them all the
time. He's great to play golf with,
which he was great to play golf with.
I mean, he was your buddy. I remember I hit a shot.
I was I was playing with him at Greenleaf and he had to drive
right down the middle of most par 5.
And I I hit my drive to the right.
I hit it good, but it went in the water to this and this lake
on the right and he goes good as a good shot.
Water got in the way. You know, I mean, he was, he
was, he was fun. He was friendly.
He was, it was encouraging. You know, he was, if you're in
that little world, you know, it was great.
But if you weren't, if you met him in a gas station and you're
filling up your car with gas and he's next to you filling his car
up with gas, you're not going to talk to you.
He's going to walk right off and you try to talk to him because
he just doesn't want to engage. He just didn't want to engage.
Yeah. Yeah.
And then what was the impact in on you?
So clearly it's had a profound effect on you.
One he hadn't a bit more to working on a single plane swing,
but haven't met how many going through that.
I guess transition of your own feelings around the game and the
way you play it. What is the legacy been for you?
Well, I, you know, I played, He died in September of 2004 and I
played my last round of golfer in July.
I used to go see him on his birthday.
He was up in Toronto, Kitchener, ON and I used to go out there
around his birthday and say hi to him to see him because I,
when he was in Florida, I spent a lot of time with him.
But he's in Canada. I didn't go up to Canada that
much except a few times a year. And so I went up there to see
him and I knew he wasn't doing well health wise.
And so he, we played, we, it was the first time usually we play
nine holes. We hit a few golf balls, mess
around and I'd take off and he wanted to play eighteen holes.
So we play 9 and we're sitting down for a little bit of lunch
before the back 9 having a hot dog.
And I, he said, I said, MO, my mission is to teach the entire
world who you are and your golf swing.
That is my mission in my life. And he turns to me and says,
what can one man do? And so that became my mission.
I said, OK, we'll see what one man can do, right?
And so that that's been my mission is to do, do everything
I can to let the people know not only about his golf swing and,
and how, how I, I've studied it now to the point where it's just
hard to argue the scientific facts of how he, what he figured
out. And I called his swing a
discovery. By the way, I don't call it a
method because he discovered the absolute best way to
anatomically position the body to strike a golf ball.
And so he figured that out. And so my mission is to teach as
many people that, but also teach, teach people about who he
was and the character he was and how much he contributed the
game. He's still today contributing to
the game of golf and he's been gone.
He's been gone for 22 years, right?
So that's. Still, you hear his name pretty
often on different forms of media.
Lots of people still bringing up his.
His legacy is very popular on YouTube.
People want to hear about it, they want to know about it.
So it's incredible, the impact he's had way beyond his
lifetime, which is incredible. I'll put a video out there on
YouTube and only get 2000 views. I put a MO normal video on
YouTube because 200,000 views, right?
I mean, he's just, he's an amazing character.
He's he, he is a genius and guys like him are geniuses and
they're hard to recognize because we don't understand a
lot of how they are and what they say.
And I still, I was watching a video yesterday.
We're doing a, we're, we're getting a documentary produced
around MO and I, I, we're working on it.
It's, it's been in a little long Rd. in the documentary done.
But I was, I was, I have collected hundreds, maybe even
thousands of hours and of pictures and footage of, of MO
and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to upload it to, I'm trying to
upload it to these documentary film makers in, in California.
And so I have my, my computers. That's all my computer screens
are all the way up here because they're trying to download this
stuff. And I was, I started looking
through a few more videos, which I haven't seen in a while, and
I'm sitting here just just laughing.
I'm just crying. I'm laughing because he was such
a character, but I watch a video of him hitting balls, talking
about a swing and now I'm like, that makes so much sense to me
now. Back then I had no idea what he
was talking about, right? I mean, I was like, I, that's I
totally, it's totally foreign to me, but I love watching it.
I I think it's he's, he was so right on.
He was so right on. And ultimately that I guess that
relationship and meeting more took you down a different path
yourself. You mentioned that you want to
teach effectively 11 plane, I'll call it a technique was called a
technique to everyone in the world.
So what was your transition and to coach and then from because
you've been playing as a player trying to make 11, what was that
transition like? Yeah, it was kind of that was
challenging because I, I was trying to do both for a little
while. I was trying to both play some
tournaments and then I would go to events, which is interesting.
I would go to events and I would get, now I do, I'll do a period
of time when I played really well, 2002, 1001, I had some of
my best years competitively, but the better I played, the more
people wanted to know about what I was doing.
And so I couldn't really end up in an event without people
asking me about my swing and stuff.
So here I am trying to teach some and keep my competitive,
you know, game intact. And so, but I'm, I'm making more
money teaching than I am playing.
And so I, I'm like, I got to make some and I was 34 years old
and I just gotten married and, and, and I, I don't know if you
know who Rick Carlisle is. And I give Rick, Rick is the, is
the head coach for the, for the Indiana Pacers of the NBA team
here. And Rick had caddy for me in a,
in a couple tournaments and Rick was a very good friend of mine.
And, and I remember I played it Rick caddy for being an event.
I didn't play very well in the event.
And he goes, you ever think about just coaching and I'm
like, nice. Then I, I take it you think he
goes because you're a really good coach.
He goes, I know good coaches. I'm a coach.
He goes, I, you know, and Rick hadn't had an NBA career as
well. And so I kind of started taking
the hint a little bit of maybe take my skills as a communicator
and the way I'm my analytical aspects and the way I way I
structure systems because that's what I'm done with it.
I've just built systems around it.
Yeah, yeah. That was kind of my, and then I
was married and I just got married and, you know, it's
trying to settle down and all the travel that it takes to play
competitive golf. You know, I just decided I want
to probably start really pursuing the coaching side of
this. And that was really what I still
played a little bit, but I just, I decided to really dig into the
coaching and it'll became really successful.
And then what should approach to people?
So clearly you're looking the one plane approach, right?
But what does it look like? For example, if I came for a
lesson for you taught, what would we be talking about?
What things would do be focusing on?
Well, I so I built a system around it because there's a
couple things. There's a couple of things that
I don't want to say golf instructions has been taught and
corrected because there's a lot of great instructors out there.
But I was looking at the PGA teaching manual, for example,
and they have not updated their instruction, the PGA manual
since 1991. So and you think about in
today's world that that, yeah, the way it's written it, they've
updated the cover, it's nice. It's they reprint the cover all
the time. But they, and so they, so if you
think about it, you know what we know now and what we knew back
in 1991 and even before that, because Emmanuel was obviously
written from reversation before 1991.
There's so much to know about how we learn how the body works.
So the way I approach it and so. Put MO Norman aside for a minute
and say and look at it from this perspective.
What did actually, what did MO Norman actually discover?
Well, he discovered a way to put the body in certain positions
that make it easier to get to impact.
It's as simple as that. And So what are those positions?
OK, well I would say if I had to sit in, if I had to sit in front
of the stadium and teach 1000 thousand people in 5 minutes,
say your body has is a design and I can prove it to you.
Your arm can only rotate so far, your hips can only rotate so
far, and your body can only move so much.
So if I can, if I can put your body into the correct positions,
I can get you to do that every single time based on your body's
design. And so your body has limits of
range of motion. And what Moke discovered was if
I positioned myself a certain way and I put the club on the
same plane I'm going to impact, I can repeat this thing with at
least amount of stress, movement and difficulty the way based on
the way the body works. That's why I'm both both of most
feet are on the ground at impact.
Why? Because when your foots down,
you're limited. You can't.
You can only rotate so much.
Why was he tilted like he was? Because it limits rotation.
So all these things biomechanically that MO did were
positions that made it getting to impact easier.
And so it was all based in science and it really is a
scientific noted notedness. So I know that, but he didn't
know it because he figured it out intuitively.
And I think that's why I appreciated him so much, because
the way his brain was wired was he didn't read magazines, he
didn't watch other players and say, what are you doing?
He he, as MO would say, I did it my way.
I did it my way. Right.
And and that's, that's added, that's at that possibly autistic
and intuitive awareness saying why this is easier placing the
club behind the ball. There's science to that because
because and here's the thing, it's a it's a very simple
science. Your body is more open at impact
rotationally than it is at a dress.
Yeah. So the club can't be in the same
spot right at impact on address. It can't be in the same spot.
It has to be back because you're more open and impact.
So that's what MO was discovering, you know, and it's,
it's remarkable if you think about it from that perspective.
And then of course, I had to quantify everything.
I'm a science guy. I sort of quantify how much
rotation did MO have, how much pelvis then, you know, so I have
this data sheet. But it was interesting because I
built a computer, I built a software that would obviously I
put sensors on your body and I could measure how much your body
was moving and I could sit behind, I could not even see
you. I could sit beyond the screen
and watch the data, right? So I could, I could just watch
the numbers and I could have an instructor out there and I could
be on them on a speaker and going, OK, put them at 12° of
band, put them at 25° of rotation.
And I could produce the exact same swing of MO Norman and you
just with data. So, so, yeah, so I mean, it's
just model. I just thought I built a model
around that and it works if you if you get into the model, it
works every single time. And it sounds like more was
effectively Iron and Biden before Iron and Biden was built
by the US. That's a USGA thing I think,
isn't it? The testing.
Exactly. So it's on a single plane,
right? That machine, you know why it's
on a single plane? Because they tried to build a
two plane machine, did you know that?
No. So True Temper that, that's a
true Temper machine. Matter of fact, I spent time
with that and True Temper was testing shafts.
So they, they, and they called it, they were trying to, they
were trying to model Byron, Byron Nelson's swing with it.
But they would have it, they'd have the axis of the arm of the
machine. They had another axis for the
club. They could not get it to a line
because because the club would ban in in the axis.
So they put the thing on a single axis, one arm, one
shuffle. Actually, it was basically a
single plane machine. So they had to build it into a
single plane to even be able to test clubs.
I used to test golf balls and clubs on those things all the
time. Yeah, they had to build it into
a single axis. Exactly what most figured out
exactly. Wow, that's incredible.
And then what impact has a hard one, I guess your golf in terms
of because you said you went through a really dark point and
I know that you don't play for 11 now you're coaching.
But what's so hard? What impact is it hard on you
playing as well then taught through those times?
You know, I didn't play a lot for a while because I was really
building the business around teaching.
But when I do play out, they are the best.
The biggest benefit I have now is I don't have to practice that
much to be relatively good. Now, of course, look the game
short game and putting. If I went on and play with you
Utah, you'd be like Todd, you hit it really good, but you're
you're putting terrible, right, because the game requires you to
practice. But but I'm not sharp like I
used to be, but I'm a pretty good golfer all the time without
having to practice much because the the the swing.
It's it's simple. You I I my biggest problem with
golf is that I just got to go out there and let the club do
the work because I'm out there trying to be the tour player I
was back when I was playing. And if I just go out there and
and make good swings, I hit good shots and so let the mechanics
do their job, you know, and, and so let that swing just I always
tell people to swing the swings already inside of you.
You just got to position yourself and let it come out of
you by just with good positions and good swing motion and and so
now I just, I just enjoy the game.
The biggest thing for me and, and, and the thousands of people
that I've been able to teach is just enjoying playing the game
and hitting good golf shots. It's about enjoyment.
You'd be surprised at how little is about score with, with the
people I teach. I mean, score becomes a factor.
When you hit a good, you want to score well, right?
But when you're not, when you don't hit the ball well and
you're not a good ball striker, score becomes irrelevant.
It becomes about #1 enjoying the game, hitting fairways, hitting
greens, not looking for golf balls the whole time.
And then score becomes some somewhat secondary.
Because if I if, if I said to you, hey, I'll tell you what,
let's go out and play golf and I'm going to have you hit it in
the trees every single time off the tee, but you're still going
to shoot even par. You'd be like, yeah, that's
great. I shot you on par, but it sucked
because I'm in the trees all day long, you know, so that's what
you're going to say. But if I said, if I said you
hate, you're going to hit every fairway, you're going to RIP it
down the fairway really nice down the middle, you're going to
hit it on the green, but you're going to three putt every hole.
You would walk off the course go.
I didn't putt very well, but I hit it good.
It's fun, right? So, so it it's it comes down to
enjoyment. It really does.
And that's what I'm just helping people have fun playing golf and
if I can get them to, you know, the guys, I had two guys in my
Academy here today or yesterday and one once in his early, early
40s. One guy was 80 and they both
came up to me and they said, Todd, they said I would not be
playing golf. It wasn't for you and MO Norman.
I would have quit because of frustration and because of maybe
back pain or injury and giving people hope that there's an
easier way. And, and so I that's those are
my trophies now, right? Those people are my trophies.
The people that are actually 80 year old guy, that's that his
wife's like you're crazy, you're crazy to keep playing golf.
Why you keep doing this? He goes because I found an
easier way and I love hitting golf shots right.
I love the feeling of the golf ball and I'm like that's what I
do it for. The 80 year old got it and wants
to keep hitting it solid and wants to keep playing golf
because he because it helps them.
Absolutely. And then on more, what would you
hope that people remember a bit more most?
Well, I mean, you know, the documentary will be a big part
of, of hopefully really telling the story about MO.
He's such a unique character. But I, I think what I want
people to realize is that when there's a lot of people in the
world like MO that are that we kind of discount, we, we think,
well, they're not, they're, they're not normal.
They don't, they don't act normal.
They don't have normal lives. No, didn't have a bank account.
He didn't have a checking account.
I mean, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't know.
I remember one time in his car, I said, MO, I just like to dig
through his car because all the stuff was in his car.
And I opened his glove box up and a bunch of papers blew out.
And I run, I'm running around the parking lot with a Golf Club
trying to trap these papers. And I pick one up and it's a
check for $15,000 and it's, it's like 60 days old.
And I'm, he goes, I need to shove it back to the glove box,
you know, And because he just didn't, he didn't pay attention
to that stuff. But I'm just appreciating this,
who he was. And I think we got to
appreciate, we appreciate guys like MO Norman who can really
have these gifts and, you know, we can really learn from them.
And I just want to realize he was such, he was a wonderful guy
and he was so unique, which we need to we need to celebrate
people like MO. That's why I hope MO brings that
to the world a little bit when when we could tell a story.
Absolutely. And then what would you hope
that people remember about your contribution on us as well,
Todd? Well, I just tell people that,
that, you know, I had a friend of me from my ass the other day.
He goes tell what? What's gonna happen when you're
gone? Like, you know, MO's gone.
What if we're gone? I said, look, take my, my legacy
will be all the people I've taught the single point swing
and they, they're going to carry on the tradition of, of Moe's
single point swing. So that's my mission is that the
more people I can teach this to, the more people that I can.
And I got coaches, a lot of coaches too.
I was on a coaches meeting yesterday with, with 10 of my
coaches. It's the coaches that are
teaching it and it's the people they teach.
It'll be the legacy of this. It won't be just one guy like
me. It'll be, hey, the most story
will be out there, which is great.
It'll it'll be documented, but it's going to be the how many
people are out there in Singapore And by the way, watch
the kids watch the kids when he hand them a Golf Club out there.
They don't, they don't they, they, they put out there just
like no Norman, they stick it in a straight line because they
that's the easiest way to hit that thing on the ground with a
stick. And then we change them into
this, lower your hands, stand closer to the ball and be
complicated. So let the kids be kids and let
them let them naturally hit a golf ball and you'll see a bunch
of Bo Norman's out there hitting the dead straight.
So that's the legacy of it. But I mean, well, Todd, thanks
so much for coming on. The show has been fascinating to
hear from you and I'm so pleased that we got Tierra.
But your own journey as well in terms of people following up and
want to know more about the singles playing swing, How can
they get in touch with you and how can they learn with you?
You always go to my website and look, I tell people to e-mail me
directlyiftheylikeitstodd.g@gravesgolf.com. We have plenty of resources.
We have a, an online single plane Academy which you can go
register for free and we we do lots of instruction.
We have a lot of live events going on all the time.
And then I finished a book just recently called the Intelligent
Golf Swing, which they can pick up on Amazon or they they can go
to the intelligentgolfswing.com and pick up a copy of the book.
I wrote this book with the help of AI to have this discussion
about MO and about all the discoveries that I made about
his swing. And we put that into a into a
book, which has been really a fun thing for me because it's
Brian's a little bit of AI into the MO Norman world.
MO's on the cover of the book, by the way, so they want to get
that. That's a really fun book and by
it'll be out in Audible in an audio version here pretty soon
as well. So you can pick up a copy of my
book. You can e-mail me directly at
todd.g@gravesgolf.com where you can go to
mywebsitesgravesgolf.com and and find out all the information
about it. Fantastic.
Well, thanks so much for coming on.
It's been a real privilege to hear from you, Todd, and all the
best for the future. Thank you, Roz.
It's great to be on your show. I appreciate that.
I'd like to thank Todd for his time and for sharing not only
his own journey through the game, but also such personal
insight into life and legacy of MO Norman.
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