1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:06,120 Welcome back to Line by Golf, the podcast made from the 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,160 connections we find through a great game of golf. 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,240 I'm your host, Ross McGuire, and today I'm joined by Todd Graves, 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,440 one of the leading voices behind the single playing swing and a 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,640 man who spent more than a decade learning directly from the 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,400 legendary MO Norman. We talk about Todd's journey 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,160 through Professional Golf, the VHS tape that changed his life 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,200 and how meeting MO Norman led him to dedicate his career to 9 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,160 teaching a simpler way to swing the Golf Club. 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,920 We also go deep into whom Norman really was away from the maths 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,600 and why is legacy still fascinates golfers around the 12 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,320 world. Let's go over to Todd. 13 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:42,680 Hey, Todd, great to have you on the podcast. 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:44,400 Thanks for joining. Thank you, Ross. 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,040 Great to be here. And Todd, we're going to jump 16 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,440 straight into MO Norman. So what's the influence of MO 17 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:51,040 Norman being in your career today? 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,720 MO Norman is a very big part of my life, but you know, it was 19 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:01,640 mostly because of my desire to, to hit a golf ball better. 20 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,560 You know, that I was on, I was on a search, I was on a mission 21 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,000 I was on. I was on a, a mission to get 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,440 better at golf. And I tell people that no one at 23 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,320 before I met MO, no one had spent more money than me on golf 24 00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:17,000 instruction. And I worked with the best 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,720 instructors in the world. I didn't know I was, I got fly 26 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,960 out worse. I got worse before I got better. 27 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,280 And then I got very lucky to meet. 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,080 I saw a video of MO first and then a friend of mine was 29 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,000 playing the Canadian Tour and he, he brought a video of MO to 30 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,080 my off or to my apartment and said, you got to see this guy. 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,600 And I said, yeah, I said, and I and by the way, I knew a lot 32 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,640 about the golf swings that worked with the best instructors 33 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,200 in the world. They, they are all trying to 34 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,440 help me. But then I see MO and he was 35 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,560 doing something so radically different, but from where I saw 36 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,840 it, from where I was, it looks so much easier, so much so made 37 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,560 so much more sense to me that I started practicing like MO for a 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,600 year before I met him. And I immediately got better. 39 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:03,960 I started getting better and better and better. 40 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:06,600 So it literally, I think I was just one of the luckiest guys in 41 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,560 the world to be able to at that time, run into MO Norman or run 42 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,480 into a video of MO at the time. And that, that's kind of the 43 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,440 story goes from there. Wow. 44 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,800 And then we've concentrated to the more Norman side of your 45 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,240 journey and your life and your career, Todd. 46 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,120 But how did you get into the game? 47 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,000 Where to? Start. 48 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,000 Yeah, I mean, I was, I was 11 years old. 49 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,400 I my, my, we kind of, I wasn't, I was middle class in living 50 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,920 Illinois. And we lived across the pond 51 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:39,560 from a golf course. And so, you know, my, my average 52 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,120 afternoon with my buddies was to take a little boat across the 53 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,240 pond and fish out golf balls that people were hitting into 54 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,400 the lake from the, from the Country Club and steal the golf 55 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,640 balls. We run out to the other side of 56 00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:51,480 the, the pond and hit them back in the pond. 57 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,040 And, and that's kind of when I started all, all my buddies 58 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,720 would hit golf balls. And then I really didn't get 59 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,520 really into the game until we moved to Oklahoma, where I, I 60 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:06,080 grew up down the street from a golf course And my dad, I mean, 61 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,800 you wanted to talk about a great babysitter is just drop your 62 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,400 kids off at a golf course and go to work because we'll have 63 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,680 plenty to do. So my dad, my mom and dad would 64 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,600 drop me off at the course and I would have to find something to 65 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:18,160 do. So I took a job at the course 66 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:20,480 helping, you know, do whatever I could so I could play golf for 67 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,160 free. And man, I just, I grew up, I 68 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,800 grew up around a golf course and I, and I think it's a great way 69 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,520 for a kid to grow up. So that's, I got started. 70 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,760 So that's about, that was about when I was 11-12 years old. 71 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,040 And then take it from there. I, I played, you know, I started 72 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,840 playing competitive golf, Junior Golf, love the game, love this. 73 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,840 I love the solitary, the the solitary style of the game where 74 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,480 you know, it's really all about you, you and you're dealing with 75 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,640 your own emotions and your own. I, I was kind of an introverted 76 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,680 kid that was very introverted. I I still, I still, you probably 77 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,000 can tell it I'm introverted, but I, I'm, I'm relatively 78 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,480 introverted when it comes to these things. 79 00:03:56,480 --> 00:04:00,000 So, so that's just, I mean, I, I, I love it. 80 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,720 I I watched my, I have Academy here in Edmond, OK, And I 81 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,200 watched the kids out there and I can tell the kids that were like 82 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,560 me, right? They just, they go to the corner 83 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,880 of the rings. They they're into themselves or 84 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,880 yeah, I love it. Brilliant. 85 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,320 And then children that transaction towards, I mean, 86 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,160 what was your progress like in the game? 87 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,160 How did it come around for you? You mentioned that you've 88 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,040 probably spent more money, you think that anybody else in the 89 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,880 world on lessons, but what was your transaction and your your 90 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,880 progression in the game like those years? 91 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,200 Yeah, you know, I mean, I was a good high school player. 92 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,160 I I won a few tournaments in high school. 93 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,120 So growing up I was was known as a pretty good player. 94 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,000 I'm not a very big guy. So I mean, it's not that I hit 95 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,760 the golf ball a long distance and overpowered golf courses. 96 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,200 I just, I really was a technician more than anything of 97 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,320 of making. I mean, I hit, I was always a 98 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,240 pretty good player, just all all the way around. 99 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,560 And I got a couple of college scholarship offers, but they 100 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,480 weren't any larger colleges. So I wanted to go to Division 101 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,240 One school. My dad was a doctor, my mom had 102 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,320 a, a master's degree in English. So very, very educated family. 103 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,920 So my parents were really oriented more towards get a 104 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,800 great education. So I just went to Oklahoma State 105 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,640 University and had no, I really didn't play golf for the first 106 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,120 year, but I got invited to play the internal golf tournament, 107 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,280 which was just, I don't know if you know, Emerald golf here in 108 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:27,520 the in the states, but but the they basically the fraternity 109 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,160 guys in the non fraternity guys play a tournament and I won that 110 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,120 the intermeral tournament and I started getting the bug again to 111 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,760 play. So I went to the college golf 112 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,320 coach there and I said, Hey, I spots on the team and they 113 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,200 they're right. At the time, Oklahoma State was 114 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,920 the best college golf team in the in the country. 115 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,080 And of course they're like, we don't have room for you. 116 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:53,280 We we're too good for you. So, so, so I ended up that 117 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:57,080 summer going down to Norman, OK, which is the rival school of 118 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,960 Oklahoma State and working at a golf course there. 119 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,600 And it just, again, I, I think my life has been very 120 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:05,960 interesting. If, if I mean people, 121 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,320 everybody's lives, if you look at them, you know, there are a 122 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:10,200 lot of serendipitous things that happened in your life. 123 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,880 But I was working in the golf shop, I'd say bag room at this 124 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,680 golf course in Norman, OK, where Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma 125 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,680 is. And Todd Hamilton and a guy 126 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,880 named David Sheffield, Todd Hamilton won the Open 127 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,080 Championship in 2004. Todd came out there, He was on 128 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:29,680 the team at OU. He came out there to play the 129 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,080 back nine. And I saw him out there and I, I 130 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,120 really didn't know who Todd was. And I end there on the team. 131 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,280 But I asked the head pro, do you care if I go out there and play 132 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:39,520 with these guys? We're really slow in the 133 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,000 backroom. Nothing's going on in the golf 134 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,400 shop. They said, go ahead. 135 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:43,880 You know, it's getting dark anyway, go ahead. 136 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,360 So I went out there to played a lot back nine with them and I, I 137 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:52,760 beat them both of them. And after that night holds, Todd 138 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,120 says to me, he goes, who are you and what are you doing here? 139 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,280 And I said, well, I was trying to play golf at Oklahoma State, 140 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,760 couldn't really figure that out. And I came down here the the pro 141 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,240 here is a good friend of mine. He goes, well, do you want to 142 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:05,680 try to get on the team that owe you? 143 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:06,600 And I said sure. He goes. 144 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,840 So the next day I get a call from the the assistant coach at 145 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,440 OU and he says, hey, would you want to play a walk on 146 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:13,920 tournament? Do you walk on the team? 147 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,760 And I said course. So I got on the walk on. 148 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:24,440 Now it was a sixth round event and I made a 10 footer to win. 149 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,320 I, I barely won the tournament, barely won. 150 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:34,240 And as I walked off the green, the the pro, the the assistant 151 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,560 coach put his arm, his name was Jim Bagwan put his arm around me 152 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,360 and said his thank God you made that putt. 153 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,960 I said why? And he goes, because we had this 154 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,040 entire tournament to get you on the team, we had to have a way 155 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,680 to get you on the team. We put the entire tournament 156 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,400 together for you and, and I was the first walk on it at the 157 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,440 Rooster, Oklahoma. So that's kind of my story of 158 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:52,840 how I started playing college golf. 159 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:58,480 And for for the in the UK who maybe don't know what you're 160 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:00,480 talking about. I know a lot all perfects. 161 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,240 I've listened to a few pods with people in the States, Todd, but 162 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,960 am I right in saying that what you're talking about is that a 163 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,280 walk on as if you don't have a sport at that university or that 164 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,480 team, you can go and play a tournament and if you won the 165 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,400 tournament, you effectively get not just a place in team, but a 166 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,600 university sport as well as how it works. 167 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,840 Yeah, it's a tryout, right? It's a tryout. 168 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,160 And so I'm not, I'm not sure how many people were in the 169 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,080 tournament, to be honest with you. 170 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,560 There might have been 50. I don't remember how many. 171 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,640 Anybody can try out. Anybody can try out. 172 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,000 So yeah, I'll have to look at that. 173 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,679 But it's been a long time. But yeah, so it's a try out. 174 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:37,000 You know, you can walk ONS on football teams will have try 175 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:41,039 outs for walk ONS and and it's a way to take the kids who have a 176 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:43,360 lot of talent that don't get overlooked coming out of high 177 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,440 school. I'm not sure if they still do 178 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:47,160 it. Be honest with you. 179 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,040 I'd have to talk to a coach who's a good friend of mine if 180 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,520 they still do a walk on turn up there. 181 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,360 But yeah, but yeah, it's it's it's a. 182 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,920 You mentioned Oklahoma State, it's not where, not at the same 183 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,120 time, of course, because I know where Rocky Fowler went. 184 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,080 They've got a really, really good team as well, right, You 185 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,880 know? At the time I was there with 186 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:09,280 Scott were playing Bob Tway, Andy Dillard, Mark Hayes, you 187 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,360 know, just it's just an endless number of players. 188 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,760 That's why that's why I couldn't get on the team there. 189 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,200 They were just too just way too good. 190 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,800 You know, Brian Watts. I mean, there was so many great 191 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,720 players from Oklahoma State, but but yeah, so that's, that's kind 192 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,200 of how I started playing college off and I wasn't a great college 193 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,320 player, you know, I mean, trust me, I, I was, I didn't, I didn't 194 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,480 have a lot of real Junior Golf experience other than I'd played 195 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:35,800 the local tournaments and stuff and been very good and local 196 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:37,720 stuff. I, it wasn't nationally ranked. 197 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,040 I, I didn't have, my parents didn't have the, the wherewithal 198 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,200 to the money to for me to travel and it just my game. 199 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,240 It wasn't just like that in my household, but I loved at at OU, 200 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,720 being at OU because I got to play with Todd Hamilton and guys 201 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,880 like Todd that that elevated my ability to, to see what a good, 202 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,640 good golf really is. And then in 1991, actually in 203 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,760 89, I broke my hand and I so my lap my last year and a half of 204 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,160 College of college golf, I couldn't play. 205 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,440 So the coach made me the assistant coach of the team. 206 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,360 We won the national championship in 1989. 207 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,480 I was the assistant coach on that team and then in 1990 I 208 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,080 turned pro and I played the Asian Tour. 209 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,520 I went straight over to Asia and played my first professional 210 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:22,680 tour. Did you go? 211 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,560 There was was Todd Hamilton, he played Asian Tour as well, so. 212 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,320 That's why I went there because, because Todd, you know, he had 213 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,920 been there a few years before I, I got there and Todd said, once 214 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,000 you come over, I'll show you, I'll show you the ropes of how 215 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,400 to, you know, be in Asia and stuff. 216 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,120 And I, I, I roomed with Todd for the first 3 or 4 events. 217 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,520 It's it's kind of weird how they at the time, how you would you'd 218 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,400 room with a guy, but if you missed the cut, he makes the cut 219 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,160 or whatever You're you're traveling in different, 220 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,160 different groups and stuff. But yeah, so I play, I room with 221 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,120 Todd and and, and hung out with Todd, but I, I just got to be 222 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,200 around so much good golf. It it elevated my game to be 223 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,960 around people that were better than me. 224 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,680 And, and I, I always put people to do that, even though I was 225 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:03,920 getting my butt kicked out there quite a bit, right? 226 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,480 I saw I got better, you know, I'd walk off the course and I'd 227 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,400 see guys do things like, I can't do that yet. 228 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,680 Like I need to, you know, And so you really see the standard of 229 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:15,040 golf you have to play. The first event I played in, 230 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,160 Bernhard Langer showed up and he was, I mean, I don't know how 231 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,080 old he was then. He's probably in his late 20s. 232 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,720 I don't even know. And you know, I watched this guy 233 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,800 in, in, in Hong Kong. I shoot 70. 234 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,720 I think I shoot, I shoot 77 the first round and he shoots 63 235 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,200 with a, with a triple on the last hole. 236 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,720 No, I take it back. No, he shoots 63 the first 237 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,800 round, he shoots 66 the second round, the triple on the last 238 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,680 hole. And I'm like, I don't have that 239 00:11:45,680 --> 00:11:47,800 game. I don't have that right. 240 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,840 So so yeah, you learn a lot just from being around it, you know, 241 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,160 so. And towards just for the last 242 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,720 news that don't know who are maybe not my age as well because 243 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,640 I'm I'm turning 50 this year. But tot Hamilton won the 2004 244 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,760 Open Championship at Trenton, beat air nails in the playoff. 245 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,640 Yeah, fantastic player. And he had it's really 246 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,440 interesting to remember. One of the things that stood 247 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,440 about Todd was he talked about the fact and you're mentioning a 248 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,720 little bit towards that there. The fact for him was it didn't 249 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:23,400 matter that he hadn't won AUS, the PGA Tour event necessarily 250 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:25,400 recently or whatever. It doesn't matter. 251 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,200 He hadn't won a European Tour event. 252 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,960 It won so many times on the Asian Tour, the Japanese tour. 253 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,280 He was just used to 1 and it doesn't matter to him what 254 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,480 tournament it was. And I thought that was really 255 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,680 refreshing when he won that open as much. 256 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:43,160 As it was a shock. It made it clear that actually, 257 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,360 if you can one at golf, you can one anywhere. 258 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,040 Well, in the quality of golf, this so great everywhere. 259 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,160 You know that it's on every tour. 260 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,360 The guys that are on the European Tour, the Asian Tour, 261 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,120 those guys can play anywhere. It's just, it's just a matter of 262 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,680 playing well in whatever week you're playing. 263 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:04,800 You know, I, I, I saw so much great golf. 264 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,360 There was a guy named Frankie Minoza. 265 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,800 No one will probably remember Frankie, but but but they used 266 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,000 to let amateur, they used to let the Asian Tour, they used to 267 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,840 have more amateurs in the Masters and they used to let the 268 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,560 Order of Merit winners from these the tour, like Asian Tour 269 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,280 play in the Masters every year. And Frankie, I think played the 270 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,160 Masters numerous times because he always would win the Order of 271 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,640 Merit, the money title in Asia. And so there is these amazing 272 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,840 golfers over there that you're like, these guys are. 273 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,360 And he's he was Filipino, he's from the Philippines. 274 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,480 So there's these great golfers around the world And and, you 275 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,400 know, they don't we'd always see them because we watched the PGA 276 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,320 Tour and, you know, you watch maybe live or some of the bigger 277 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:45,840 events, but but there's so many good golfers in this world. 278 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,360 And and yeah, you play with those guys, you're like, this 279 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,600 guy's remarkable. You know, I I play this one 280 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,720 event. There's a Rodney Butcher, some 281 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,680 people may know Rodney. Rodney played on the PGA Tour a 282 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:00,600 little bit and I was playing with Rodney in the event. 283 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,560 We're playing a mini tour event down in Florida. 284 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,000 And I I hit, I hit a drive into this water on this par 5. 285 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,600 No, I actually hit my drive really good and hit my second 286 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:14,000 shot in the water. And so I take a drop and I take 287 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,840 a really bad drop in the wrong place. 288 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,560 I was just frustrated and I hit my next shot in the water and I 289 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,120 make double and I walk off. I walk off the green and Roddy 290 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,480 puts his arm around me goes Todd. 291 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,760 That's why we're on the mini tours right now. 292 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:34,160 And I thought it was great because I mean, it just you have 293 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,560 to raise your standards, you know, to play that level. 294 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,840 And if you do stupid stuff, you get stupid results. 295 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,720 And and, and I I'm not sure. I think if I had to go back, you 296 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,920 know, and play again, I would have to learn patience. 297 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,120 I think I just did. I was just, I was too impatient 298 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,800 and I think I still am, you know, so. 299 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:55,480 Brilliant. And then Todd, you mentioned 300 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,040 that you've gone through a lot of coaches, I guess in the past. 301 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,120 So what was that like in terms of what you were searching for? 302 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,480 And then we'll we'll definitely get to the point where 303 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,600 everything changed our own war and has involved in your life. 304 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,960 But what were you, I guess what was driving you? 305 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,800 What kind of frustrations did you hurt? 306 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,240 What was that part of your journey like for you? 307 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:23,360 Yeah, well, I always, so you know what you do? 308 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:28,120 I I think the, the, the, the way it started was you're like, OK, 309 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,040 who do the best players work with? 310 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,040 You know, if, if the best players in the world must have 311 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,880 the best coaches. So obviously access to the best 312 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:37,520 players and I had access to the best coaches. 313 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:42,280 So I started spending my time with guys like, you know, David 314 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,680 Ledbetter, Hank Haney, Mac O'Grady, Tom Anton, you know, 315 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,520 all these guys that we've heard about, you know, you're, you're, 316 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,160 you're doing you. And I'm not, I'm not saying I 317 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,160 worked with them that much. Maybe one lesson here. 318 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,920 But I, I really worked with Hank Haney more than any anybody. 319 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,680 And I give these guys a lot of credit. 320 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,880 Hank Haney is a brilliant instructor and he taught me. 321 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,360 If he wouldn't have taught me what he taught me, I wouldn't 322 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,560 know what I know about swing playing and I wouldn't know what 323 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,360 I know about MO Norman. So, so I give all these guys 324 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,120 plenty of credit for teaching the game. 325 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,800 It's, it's not an easy game to teach. 326 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:22,880 But what I ran into was the way my mind worked was why is there 327 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,200 not a singular model? Because the body is built a 328 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,760 certain way, It's anatomically built a certain way. 329 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,400 We all have two arms, 2 legs, you know, hands. 330 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,760 So there's no, there's no standardization of golf 331 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,160 instructions. So that was my first thought 332 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,720 process because one day I remember I was out there with 333 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,840 Hank one day and I and I, he goes stand closer to the ball. 334 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,480 And so I did and I worked on that for the entire day. 335 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:50,760 The next day I go out there, he's like, move away from the 336 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,200 ball a little bit. And I, and I said, how far do 337 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,640 you stand from a golf bike? You know, it was, it was like, 338 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,960 how, how do I know? Like how you know what, what? 339 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,680 So, so there's all these like question marks that we're not, 340 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,960 weren't getting answered. So there's this massive big 341 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,000 question mark over is there an easy way and a possibly a best 342 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:17,119 way to hit a golf ball and. Thanks for listening to Linked 343 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,720 by Golf. I also Co host a new podcast 344 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:21,760 with Colin Grey called Both Sides of Par. 345 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,599 Every episode explores the different sides of the game. 346 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,680 From drowsing practice habits to core strategy, mindset, 347 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,680 equipment, and idealities golfers face every handicap 348 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,920 level. If you enjoy the conversations 349 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,720 here, I think you'll really love this one too. 350 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,400 Follow Both Sides of Power now on your favorite podcast 351 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,600 platform so you don't miss the first episodes. 352 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:42,960 Just search for Both Sides of Power. 353 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,000 Or go to bothpower.com. Now let's get back to the pod. 354 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,360 There's a lot of grain instructors out there. 355 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,760 I'm I'm very much, I'm very much my. 356 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,400 The way I think now after meeting MO and, and doing the 357 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,360 things I've done, I look at the golf swing is that we're looking 358 00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:04,360 for the easiest way to get to impact. 359 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,560 That's the way I look at the golf stream now, because we're, 360 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,960 because the most important thing is just consistency. 361 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,000 If we don't, I don't care how far you get it. 362 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,760 If you don't have consistency, you're not going to be able to 363 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,840 have any predictability when you play golf. 364 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,600 So you know, so then, then my brain went to what's the easiest 365 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:24,560 way to take the human body consistently get to the moment 366 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,520 of impact. So every single time. 367 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,680 And then so that was more of my analytical approach. 368 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,760 So after, when I was instructed, I saw, I got, I got, I got to 369 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,160 find, well, I almost quit, you know, after I was, I had gotten 370 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,520 worse because after three years of working with all these 371 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,000 instructors, I wasn't even better. 372 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,400 I was getting worse. The sponsors I had all the guys 373 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,400 that were paying for my life to play Professional Golf, they 374 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,280 weren't going to, they're going to pay me anymore. 375 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,240 Goes to 75 out there, you know? And were you purely playing at 376 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,040 that time? So you were effectively playing 377 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,760 for 11 all through that? Well, and to the point where I 378 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,200 even took a bartending job in Dallas, TX because I was running 379 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,160 out of money and, and I, I wasn't good enough to make any 380 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,920 money playing and I was still working on my game. 381 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,840 I bartend at night and practice golf during the day because, you 382 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,280 know, I use the daylight. But. 383 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,680 It's like, you know, it's really hard when you're trying to do. 384 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,400 It's so difficult. But I was, I was passionate and 385 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,960 I was practicing as hard as I could. 386 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:22,480 I, you know, it was a good time in my life. 387 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,040 I wasn't married, you know, I didn't have any, any real 388 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:27,200 obligations there, you know, no kids or anything. 389 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,040 So heck, it's just golf and make trying to make a living. 390 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,040 So but yeah, that's, I mean, that's, that was the journey, 391 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:34,040 right? That was the journey. 392 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,440 And, and then when I met MO, then I, I got, I got really 393 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,000 lucky to meet, meet MO Norman. I was going to say that takes us 394 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,200 perfectly and to something changed in your life. 395 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,440 Clearly. So was it as simple as you saw 396 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,640 the video, then you meant more? What was that? 397 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,040 What was that transition period like for your your life and your 398 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,320 career ultimately, Todd? Yeah. 399 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,520 So you know, one of the things that we used to do at Hank Caney 400 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,200 Studio is, you know, the technology is great today, but 401 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,480 at the time we had ATV screen and a VVCR where you put that 402 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,160 big VHS tape in, right. And so we would. 403 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,280 We would draw a line on the screen with a, with a pen like 404 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,400 a, a dry erase marker. And then we would swing and we 405 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,920 we'd see if our plane line would line up on the line. 406 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:21,760 And I remember. Going to be great content for 407 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,200 Instagram. Can you imagine people, young 408 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,520 kids today are like. Well, even you. 409 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,800 Actually drew the screen. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. 410 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,120 And, and it's so funny because at one time I did it with a, 411 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:36,280 with a, a permanent marker at my house with my girlfriend and she 412 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,920 walks in my house and I forgot I couldn't get it off the TV. 413 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,840 It was all, there's a line on there. 414 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,880 So I was watching TV with a line on there and she's like, why is 415 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,960 that line on the screen? I'm like, I I don't see it 416 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,800 anymore. Oh so yeah, but. 417 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,560 Absolutely. You're on plane. 418 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,280 The point is, were you on? Plane every every show we were 419 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,320 watching was on plane. I guess I don't know, but, but, 420 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,600 but so that we draw this line on the screen that we, we'd set up, 421 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,440 draw a line on the club and we'd go to impact and draw another 422 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,880 line and there was a separation between the two lines. 423 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,360 So you'd start on one plane and impact on the other. 424 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,440 And, and so we're trying to get the lines closer together, 425 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,120 right. But, but our process was to try 426 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,880 to get lower our hands lower at impact. 427 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:20,680 So, and I kept noticing the more the closer I get to the low 428 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,520 line, the worse I hit it. That was just, I would make an 429 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,800 answer. And it's so funny. 430 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,880 I was in the studio one day. This is down at Hank Caney 431 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,120 Studio. I don't know what year this was. 432 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:33,160 Had to be 949596 somewhere there. 433 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,000 No, it's probably 90. It's probably 9092, probably 434 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,480 around 92 right after his door. And a guy named Alberto Caneda. 435 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,880 Alberto Caneda became the president of PGA Mexico. 436 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,360 So Alberto is one of my college teammates and he comes walking 437 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:50,640 through there. He looks at me and he sees these 438 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,800 lines on the screen and I'm like, I, he goes, what are you 439 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,600 trying to do? I'm like, I am trying to get, 440 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,400 I'm trying to get back to this impact line. 441 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,920 He goes, why don't you just start your hands higher? 442 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,720 And I'm like, no, no, they keep telling everybody keeps teaching 443 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,880 me to put my hands down here, like close to my body. 444 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,160 So there's this like, you know, well, that was really the 445 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,720 catalyst to when I saw MO because it was about a year 446 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,280 later, Matthew Lane, my friend who was playing the Canadian 447 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,160 tour, great player, won the New Zealand Open in 1998, called 448 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,240 another college teammate of mine. 449 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,040 Matthew came down to Dallas. He had a he had a video about. 450 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,600 Now I knew who MO was and a lot of people knew who MO was. 451 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,600 But to me at the time, I was just mysterious character that 452 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,320 no one could get close to. You know, some guy that that 453 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,960 supposed to be great, but he may not even be real, right? 454 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,320 And and so Matthew says, Todd, you got to see this videotape 455 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,560 because it's a in Matthew, I really respected because we had 456 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,320 hit a lot of golf balls together and play a lot of golf. 457 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,720 And Matthew was a great ball striker. 458 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,800 And he goes, Todd, this guy's the best I've ever seen. 459 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,120 Yeah, the quote he used was he's a freak when he hits a golf 460 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,240 ball, how good he is. And so I I was like, I got to 461 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,720 see this. So he puts the tape in in the 462 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:08,920 VHSVCR and the very first thing I see is he's got the club on a 463 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,000 high point line. Like everything's lined up. 464 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,120 So what do I do? I grab my pen. 465 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,080 I stick it on the TV, draw a line and he start, starts on 466 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:18,760 that line and ends up right on it. 467 00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:22,880 And I'm like, what the hell? I go, I, I've been, I, I've been 468 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,960 chasing this thing around and that's the best way to do it. 469 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,760 But he looked different doing it because he started high. 470 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,560 And you know which, which now we call the single plane. 471 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,480 But gosh, it just made so much sense. 472 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:39,200 So immediately, of course, you know me the next day, I'm out of 473 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,800 Hank Caney Studio with my hands high and Hank walks by and goes, 474 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,200 what the hell are you doing? And I'm like MO Norman, I go, I 475 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,240 think I've got it figured out. And he goes, he just paint just 476 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,160 kind of blew me off. But believe it or not, Hank had 477 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,400 a MO Norman video in his office and I was like, and, and they 478 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,040 would say things like, well, Moe's left-handed and he's, he's 479 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,560 autistic and stuff. I'm like, but he's got, he got 2 480 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,840 arms, 2 legs like I do, right. And and so I just, I just 481 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,560 started copying him. I just spent a year watching 482 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,760 that tape, drawing lines on the screen and copping MO and I got 483 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,800 I started getting better right away at all this. 484 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,440 All the problems I was running into from the conventional 485 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:22,320 standpoint went away. My back stopped hurting my I got 486 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,680 to impact consistently. I started hitting it more solid. 487 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,160 And I wasn't perfect. I had I had some issues. 488 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,960 My grip was still a little bit too strong. 489 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,320 My club face would close a little bit, but overall it 490 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,200 immediately improved my ability to consistently hit the golf 491 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,920 ball. So so to where I in 1995 I can, 492 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:40,480 I qualified for the Canadian tour. 493 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,720 I I got one for the Canadian Q school and I qualified and got 494 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,560 my Canadian PJ Jordan. So you were still playing then 495 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,640 when you you went through this transaction, You're still trying 496 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:49,320 to. I've been playing. 497 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,480 Golf, barely. I met MO and I met MO and that 498 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,160 kind of saved me. And then, you know, I met MO in 499 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,720 94, finally got to meet him in person. 500 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,320 And then and we'll talk about how great that was. 501 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,640 But but then I then I did qualify for today and tour a 502 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:04,960 year later. Wow. 503 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,320 And that takes a straight and So what was our first meeting with 504 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,080 more Norman like Gavin? Everything you you dread about 505 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,640 him and you teared and he was like this magical character he'd 506 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,760 only seen in video. What was it like when you 507 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,000 actually met him for the first time? 508 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,440 I get. Invited to Chicago to a clinic 509 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,360 where So there's a company called Natural Golf at the time 510 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,560 and Natural Golf was independent of MO Norman. 511 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,440 They had no idea who MO was, but there's a scientist that well, 512 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,040 I'll say a self-proclaimed scientist that that that had 513 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,080 started this company. And he was he was right on with 514 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,800 a lot of his his science with of of you know, the Golf Club 515 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,920 should be treated like a long hammer, right? 516 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,120 And it made sense because I really like so so is this 517 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,440 company natural? So I got of course, I got tied 518 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,760 in with them because they saw what I was doing. 519 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,000 They saw, you know, me setting up like MO. 520 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,800 So I get heavily involved with that company just trying to 521 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:01,080 figure out how we bring this method out to the world, help 522 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,120 people swing on a single plane. And so MO MO got involved with 523 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,920 that because MO was a really a validation of what all this 524 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,680 natural golf stuff was teaching. So I get invited by natural golf 525 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,080 to do a clinic with MO with natural golf in Chicago. 526 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,080 And so I I get my car and I drive to Chicago. 527 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,800 Now, I've been, I had been doing or doing my version of his swing 528 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,400 from that video for a year. So, yeah, So I mean, I look 529 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,440 pretty good, I guess. I don't know. 530 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,680 And at the clinic, so MO does this amazing ball striking 531 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:36,120 demonstration. First time I ever saw him in 532 00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:38,440 person. And I always tell people there's 533 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,880 no way I can honestly describe how good the ball striking was. 534 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,880 And I'd trust me, I'd played with the best players in the 535 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,120 world over an Asian Tour. I'd been all over the world 536 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,160 playing. And the salt that the my first 537 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,920 impression was the sound of the golf ball, the way it came off 538 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,440 that club face. And you know, when a ball is 539 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,960 struck perfectly and every shot MO was hitting was sounded like 540 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,000 that, It was just an amazing sound. 541 00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:06,760 So that was my first impression. And the ball flight was just 542 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,000 just in the same exact trajectory, no curvature, just 543 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,240 bullets just going out there just perfectly. 544 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,320 The first he he he starts hitting little wedge shots from 545 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,960 50 yards. The very first 3, there's a 546 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,200 little little sign target both of them, all three at the 547 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,240 target. And then and then by the end of 548 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,960 the clinic, he's just and he's talking away. 549 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,360 You know, he's doing his thing, talking away, throwing clubs 550 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:30,880 around, you know, doing his thing. 551 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,320 And then he grabs the driver and there's a, there was a pole and 552 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,320 there's a metal pole and it was about 250 carry to this pole. 553 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,080 The 250 numbers at the top. And the pole is probably 4 554 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,040 inches wide metal pole. And he was hitting drivers at 555 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,720 it. And it probably in, in the in 556 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,560 the 1st 10 drivers he hit, I bet you 4 of them you could hear the 557 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,520 Ding off the pole. They're all just going right out 558 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,520 the side. And I was like, I've never seen 559 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,360 you like this before in my life. And so. 560 00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:58,360 And what we say, I mean, yeah, I was a clinic. 561 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,840 What was the dice and the people that were there as effectively 562 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,880 guests and customers? What were they thinking of? 563 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,680 Most people just, you know, standing in amazement is like 564 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:10,200 this can't be real. Kind of. 565 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,600 But and the guy in MO didn't look like didn't look like the 566 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,520 average golfer. You know, he his clothes were 567 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,120 tucked in. He barely wore a belt. 568 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:20,200 You know, he eat a cheeseburger and be on his shirt, you know, I 569 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,560 mean, and his clubs were scattered like it was a, like he 570 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,720 was just selling all his clubs on a, on a, on a side shop or 571 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,080 something. And, and here he was just, I 572 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,600 mean, with a perfect swing motion and just ripping golf 573 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,040 balls. And he's like so simple, so 574 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,080 simple, laughable, you know, golf so easy. 575 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,360 And so after the clinic, I walked up to him and I and I had 576 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,000 a whole question, a bunch of questions for him. 577 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,960 You know I'm I'm right. Yeah, no wonder. 578 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,520 I'm 28 years old at the time. And I said, how, how did you 579 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,320 learn to do that? Like he goes, he goes hard work, 580 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,520 can't buy it. I'm like, OK. 581 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,880 And, and I said, well, I said, do you care if I hit a couple of 582 00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:00,960 your clubs? Because the clubs are laying 583 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,840 there. I grabbed his 8 iron and I 584 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,120 started hitting some shots. I said, watch me some balls MO. 585 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,760 And he goes, oh, it's me without a belly. 586 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,200 It's me without a belly. He started looking at me. 587 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,520 It's me without a belly. So I got kind of nicknamed 588 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,320 little MO, you know, that was kind of where it all started And 589 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,440 that, and then we, and then he saw, he saw my ambition and he, 590 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,120 he saw my passion for, you know, I actually said, I'm going to be 591 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:22,200 better. I'm going to be better than, you 592 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,120 know, I want to be better than you. 593 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,880 And so he saw what I was really trying to do it. 594 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,120 He saw my enthusiasm for and we just became friends that day. 595 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,920 And then I spent as much time as I could with him over the next 596 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,840 10 years. So just as much time as I dispel 597 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,360 them because you never stop learning. 598 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,120 And I, and I, and I was, I would, I would do things like 599 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,360 crawl between his arms before he'd hit and I'd go, let me go 600 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,680 see your hands and I'd grab his hands and see how they were 601 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,280 hinging. And I would, you know, if you 602 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,080 see it, see how his shoulders are moving out. 603 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,960 I would just, I was trying to get, I was trying to feel what 604 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,760 he was feeling to hit a golf ball. 605 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,640 And I, and I did a pretty good job of interpreting all that. 606 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,480 Of course, I've done a lot more research and stuff on exactly 607 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,400 what goes on in human motion to do it. 608 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,840 But but anyway, that was my, that I became a mission of mine 609 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,920 to, to learn his swing number one. 610 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,000 But then I became then I fell in love with a guy because because 611 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,160 he's just such a unique guy and he was such a misunderstood 612 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,640 person. And so I just fell in love with 613 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,440 him too. And we just became friends and 614 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,440 Canada. And I was going to ask that very 615 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,640 question as well, Todd, I mean, what things would you say were 616 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,240 most must understood about more because there's, you know, 617 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:26,960 there's the. It was, I guess there's. 618 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,720 Always views of how people are, but what was your if you haven't 619 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,480 spent so much time with him personally? 620 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,520 He was a very gentle, care, caring person and he and he 621 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,760 really, really was a good human being. 622 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,960 He just didn't, he didn't know how to relate to people. 623 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,800 He just didn't know, he really didn't know how to connect to 624 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,560 people. He didn't know that that, you 625 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,120 know, relationships were kind of a two way St. you know, he just 626 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,200 but but but but he was he really did, he really was a good 627 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,680 hearted person and he did he did a lot of good things in the 628 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,080 world and and he just was just misunderstood for that because 629 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,360 he wasn't he wasn't social, He wasn't very introverted and and 630 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:12,840 people kind of took that as being either angry or maybe not 631 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,080 friendly or be hard to get close to which he was hard to get 632 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,440 close to. But once you're in his inner 633 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,920 circle, you know it's totally, it is a totally different world 634 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,760 in there. Yeah. 635 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,280 And I mean, I don't, I certainly wouldn't proclaim to know a lot, 636 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,800 but in a lot of circumstances and everybody is different, but 637 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,360 people who are affected by autism, that's quite a common 638 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,280 reaction that is hard for people to get close with them because 639 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,520 they do find it hard to relate to people. 640 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,360 So it's actually not unusual, but you're talking back then, 641 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:46,480 it's so many years ago and we were so badly educated as AI 642 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,440 guess a world around autism and we're still not there yet, but 643 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,320 definitely did not know enough back then. 644 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,600 Yeah, yeah. And they're so they're so 645 00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,600 involved in internally with their with in their, they're in 646 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,120 their own world and. And. 647 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,560 And he certainly was, you know, by the time, you know, after, 648 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,520 you know, after six or seven years and he was on the cover of 649 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,040 Golf Digest in 95 and then he was, I want to say forest. 650 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,840 But we, we'd, we'd get him out and do clinch with them and, and 651 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,720 do things with them and put him in the public more he became 652 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,760 better and, and more he, he, he became more accepting of his 653 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,160 environment. You know, if you talk to his 654 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,520 best friends in Canada, they would tell you about a whole 655 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,240 different, entirely different no, Norman than than we would 656 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,040 see in the public. They would say, yeah, he he he 657 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,400 jokes around with us. We play cards with them all the 658 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,080 time. He's great to play golf with, 659 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,440 which he was great to play golf with. 660 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,000 I mean, he was your buddy. I remember I hit a shot. 661 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,320 I was I was playing with him at Greenleaf and he had to drive 662 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:47,600 right down the middle of most par 5. 663 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,240 And I I hit my drive to the right. 664 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,360 I hit it good, but it went in the water to this and this lake 665 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:52,920 on the right and he goes good as a good shot. 666 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,760 Water got in the way. You know, I mean, he was, he 667 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:57,680 was, he was fun. He was friendly. 668 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,080 He was, it was encouraging. You know, he was, if you're in 669 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,840 that little world, you know, it was great. 670 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,880 But if you weren't, if you met him in a gas station and you're 671 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,280 filling up your car with gas and he's next to you filling his car 672 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,800 up with gas, you're not going to talk to you. 673 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,920 He's going to walk right off and you try to talk to him because 674 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,920 he just doesn't want to engage. He just didn't want to engage. 675 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:17,640 Yeah. Yeah. 676 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,120 And then what was the impact in on you? 677 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,680 So clearly it's had a profound effect on you. 678 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,960 One he hadn't a bit more to working on a single plane swing, 679 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,920 but haven't met how many going through that. 680 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,920 I guess transition of your own feelings around the game and the 681 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,200 way you play it. What is the legacy been for you? 682 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,120 Well, I, you know, I played, He died in September of 2004 and I 683 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,480 played my last round of golfer in July. 684 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,320 I used to go see him on his birthday. 685 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,080 He was up in Toronto, Kitchener, ON and I used to go out there 686 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,600 around his birthday and say hi to him to see him because I, 687 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,680 when he was in Florida, I spent a lot of time with him. 688 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,480 But he's in Canada. I didn't go up to Canada that 689 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,600 much except a few times a year. And so I went up there to see 690 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,720 him and I knew he wasn't doing well health wise. 691 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,679 And so he, we played, we, it was the first time usually we play 692 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:10,639 nine holes. We hit a few golf balls, mess 693 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:14,360 around and I'd take off and he wanted to play eighteen holes. 694 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,000 So we play 9 and we're sitting down for a little bit of lunch 695 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,080 before the back 9 having a hot dog. 696 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:26,560 And I, he said, I said, MO, my mission is to teach the entire 697 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,400 world who you are and your golf swing. 698 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080 That is my mission in my life. And he turns to me and says, 699 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,320 what can one man do? And so that became my mission. 700 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:39,040 I said, OK, we'll see what one man can do, right? 701 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,800 And so that that's been my mission is to do, do everything 702 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,600 I can to let the people know not only about his golf swing and, 703 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,960 and how, how I, I've studied it now to the point where it's just 704 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,040 hard to argue the scientific facts of how he, what he figured 705 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,480 out. And I called his swing a 706 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,320 discovery. By the way, I don't call it a 707 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,120 method because he discovered the absolute best way to 708 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,920 anatomically position the body to strike a golf ball. 709 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,280 And so he figured that out. And so my mission is to teach as 710 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,440 many people that, but also teach, teach people about who he 711 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,200 was and the character he was and how much he contributed the 712 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,800 game. He's still today contributing to 713 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,000 the game of golf and he's been gone. 714 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:20,680 He's been gone for 22 years, right? 715 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,920 So that's. Still, you hear his name pretty 716 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,960 often on different forms of media. 717 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,040 Lots of people still bringing up his. 718 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,440 His legacy is very popular on YouTube. 719 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,800 People want to hear about it, they want to know about it. 720 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,280 So it's incredible, the impact he's had way beyond his 721 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,400 lifetime, which is incredible. I'll put a video out there on 722 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,160 YouTube and only get 2000 views. I put a MO normal video on 723 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,240 YouTube because 200,000 views, right? 724 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,720 I mean, he's just, he's an amazing character. 725 00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:53,640 He's he, he is a genius and guys like him are geniuses and 726 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,320 they're hard to recognize because we don't understand a 727 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,920 lot of how they are and what they say. 728 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,200 And I still, I was watching a video yesterday. 729 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,600 We're doing a, we're, we're getting a documentary produced 730 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,040 around MO and I, I, we're working on it. 731 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,840 It's, it's been in a little long Rd. in the documentary done. 732 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,240 But I was, I was, I have collected hundreds, maybe even 733 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,840 thousands of hours and of pictures and footage of, of MO 734 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,520 and I'm, I'm, I'm trying to upload it to, I'm trying to 735 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,720 upload it to these documentary film makers in, in California. 736 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,960 And so I have my, my computers. That's all my computer screens 737 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,640 are all the way up here because they're trying to download this 738 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,160 stuff. And I was, I started looking 739 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,720 through a few more videos, which I haven't seen in a while, and 740 00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:34,800 I'm sitting here just just laughing. 741 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,240 I'm just crying. I'm laughing because he was such 742 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,080 a character, but I watch a video of him hitting balls, talking 743 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,520 about a swing and now I'm like, that makes so much sense to me 744 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,800 now. Back then I had no idea what he 745 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,920 was talking about, right? I mean, I was like, I, that's I 746 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,040 totally, it's totally foreign to me, but I love watching it. 747 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,400 I I think it's he's, he was so right on. 748 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,680 He was so right on. And ultimately that I guess that 749 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,400 relationship and meeting more took you down a different path 750 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,800 yourself. You mentioned that you want to 751 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:07,880 teach effectively 11 plane, I'll call it a technique was called a 752 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,080 technique to everyone in the world. 753 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,560 So what was your transition and to coach and then from because 754 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,640 you've been playing as a player trying to make 11, what was that 755 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,920 transition like? Yeah, it was kind of that was 756 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,800 challenging because I, I was trying to do both for a little 757 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,320 while. I was trying to both play some 758 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,840 tournaments and then I would go to events, which is interesting. 759 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,120 I would go to events and I would get, now I do, I'll do a period 760 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,440 of time when I played really well, 2002, 1001, I had some of 761 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,200 my best years competitively, but the better I played, the more 762 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,400 people wanted to know about what I was doing. 763 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,520 And so I couldn't really end up in an event without people 764 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,840 asking me about my swing and stuff. 765 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:53,240 So here I am trying to teach some and keep my competitive, 766 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,920 you know, game intact. And so, but I'm, I'm making more 767 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,480 money teaching than I am playing. 768 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,560 And so I, I'm like, I got to make some and I was 34 years old 769 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,200 and I just gotten married and, and, and I, I don't know if you 770 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,240 know who Rick Carlisle is. And I give Rick, Rick is the, is 771 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:17,720 the head coach for the, for the Indiana Pacers of the NBA team 772 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:19,920 here. And Rick had caddy for me in a, 773 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,200 in a couple tournaments and Rick was a very good friend of mine. 774 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,680 And, and I remember I played it Rick caddy for being an event. 775 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:28,880 I didn't play very well in the event. 776 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,960 And he goes, you ever think about just coaching and I'm 777 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,880 like, nice. Then I, I take it you think he 778 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,440 goes because you're a really good coach. 779 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:39,400 He goes, I know good coaches. I'm a coach. 780 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,400 He goes, I, you know, and Rick hadn't had an NBA career as 781 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,040 well. And so I kind of started taking 782 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,480 the hint a little bit of maybe take my skills as a communicator 783 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,400 and the way I'm my analytical aspects and the way I way I 784 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,080 structure systems because that's what I'm done with it. 785 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:56,480 I've just built systems around it. 786 00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,520 Yeah, yeah. That was kind of my, and then I 787 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,400 was married and I just got married and, you know, it's 788 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,920 trying to settle down and all the travel that it takes to play 789 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,680 competitive golf. You know, I just decided I want 790 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,760 to probably start really pursuing the coaching side of 791 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,680 this. And that was really what I still 792 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,520 played a little bit, but I just, I decided to really dig into the 793 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,160 coaching and it'll became really successful. 794 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,520 And then what should approach to people? 795 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,600 So clearly you're looking the one plane approach, right? 796 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,680 But what does it look like? For example, if I came for a 797 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,280 lesson for you taught, what would we be talking about? 798 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,560 What things would do be focusing on? 799 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,640 Well, I so I built a system around it because there's a 800 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,640 couple things. There's a couple of things that 801 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,120 I don't want to say golf instructions has been taught and 802 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,320 corrected because there's a lot of great instructors out there. 803 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,360 But I was looking at the PGA teaching manual, for example, 804 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,000 and they have not updated their instruction, the PGA manual 805 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,960 since 1991. So and you think about in 806 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,400 today's world that that, yeah, the way it's written it, they've 807 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,080 updated the cover, it's nice. It's they reprint the cover all 808 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,600 the time. But they, and so they, so if you 809 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,960 think about it, you know what we know now and what we knew back 810 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,760 in 1991 and even before that, because Emmanuel was obviously 811 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,600 written from reversation before 1991. 812 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,320 There's so much to know about how we learn how the body works. 813 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,880 So the way I approach it and so. Put MO Norman aside for a minute 814 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,720 and say and look at it from this perspective. 815 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,280 What did actually, what did MO Norman actually discover? 816 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,760 Well, he discovered a way to put the body in certain positions 817 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,160 that make it easier to get to impact. 818 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,920 It's as simple as that. And So what are those positions? 819 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,000 OK, well I would say if I had to sit in, if I had to sit in front 820 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,720 of the stadium and teach 1000 thousand people in 5 minutes, 821 00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:50,000 say your body has is a design and I can prove it to you. 822 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,600 Your arm can only rotate so far, your hips can only rotate so 823 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,840 far, and your body can only move so much. 824 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,000 So if I can, if I can put your body into the correct positions, 825 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,960 I can get you to do that every single time based on your body's 826 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,480 design. And so your body has limits of 827 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,800 range of motion. And what Moke discovered was if 828 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,240 I positioned myself a certain way and I put the club on the 829 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:13,840 same plane I'm going to impact, I can repeat this thing with at 830 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:18,720 least amount of stress, movement and difficulty the way based on 831 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:21,520 the way the body works. That's why I'm both both of most 832 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,200 feet are on the ground at impact. 833 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,320 Why? Because when your foots down, 834 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:27,960 you're limited. You can't. 835 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:29,800 You can't. You can only rotate so much. 836 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,640 Why was he tilted like he was? Because it limits rotation. 837 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,600 So all these things biomechanically that MO did were 838 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,880 positions that made it getting to impact easier. 839 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,960 And so it was all based in science and it really is a 840 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,040 scientific noted notedness. So I know that, but he didn't 841 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,360 know it because he figured it out intuitively. 842 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,280 And I think that's why I appreciated him so much, because 843 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,960 the way his brain was wired was he didn't read magazines, he 844 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,520 didn't watch other players and say, what are you doing? 845 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,640 He he, as MO would say, I did it my way. 846 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:05,320 I did it my way. Right. 847 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,520 And and that's, that's added, that's at that possibly autistic 848 00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,920 and intuitive awareness saying why this is easier placing the 849 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,960 club behind the ball. There's science to that because 850 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,280 because and here's the thing, it's a it's a very simple 851 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,280 science. Your body is more open at impact 852 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,200 rotationally than it is at a dress. 853 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,880 Yeah. So the club can't be in the same 854 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:31,280 spot right at impact on address. It can't be in the same spot. 855 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,080 It has to be back because you're more open and impact. 856 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,440 So that's what MO was discovering, you know, and it's, 857 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,440 it's remarkable if you think about it from that perspective. 858 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,360 And then of course, I had to quantify everything. 859 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,400 I'm a science guy. I sort of quantify how much 860 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,640 rotation did MO have, how much pelvis then, you know, so I have 861 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,440 this data sheet. But it was interesting because I 862 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:54,120 built a computer, I built a software that would obviously I 863 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,040 put sensors on your body and I could measure how much your body 864 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,120 was moving and I could sit behind, I could not even see 865 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,000 you. I could sit beyond the screen 866 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,800 and watch the data, right? So I could, I could just watch 867 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,640 the numbers and I could have an instructor out there and I could 868 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,640 be on them on a speaker and going, OK, put them at 12° of 869 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,040 band, put them at 25° of rotation. 870 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,240 And I could produce the exact same swing of MO Norman and you 871 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,960 just with data. So, so, yeah, so I mean, it's 872 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,600 just model. I just thought I built a model 873 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,680 around that and it works if you if you get into the model, it 874 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,560 works every single time. And it sounds like more was 875 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,680 effectively Iron and Biden before Iron and Biden was built 876 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,000 by the US. That's a USGA thing I think, 877 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:35,960 isn't it? The testing. 878 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,600 Exactly. So it's on a single plane, 879 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,240 right? That machine, you know why it's 880 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,120 on a single plane? Because they tried to build a 881 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,000 two plane machine, did you know that? 882 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:46,920 No. So True Temper that, that's a 883 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:49,280 true Temper machine. Matter of fact, I spent time 884 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,160 with that and True Temper was testing shafts. 885 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,400 So they, they, and they called it, they were trying to, they 886 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,840 were trying to model Byron, Byron Nelson's swing with it. 887 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,880 But they would have it, they'd have the axis of the arm of the 888 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,480 machine. They had another axis for the 889 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,920 club. They could not get it to a line 890 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,720 because because the club would ban in in the axis. 891 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,760 So they put the thing on a single axis, one arm, one 892 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,280 shuffle. Actually, it was basically a 893 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,080 single plane machine. So they had to build it into a 894 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,600 single plane to even be able to test clubs. 895 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,760 I used to test golf balls and clubs on those things all the 896 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,400 time. Yeah, they had to build it into 897 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,160 a single axis. Exactly what most figured out 898 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,000 exactly. Wow, that's incredible. 899 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:32,040 And then what impact has a hard one, I guess your golf in terms 900 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,080 of because you said you went through a really dark point and 901 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,280 I know that you don't play for 11 now you're coaching. 902 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,480 But what's so hard? What impact is it hard on you 903 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,960 playing as well then taught through those times? 904 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,080 You know, I didn't play a lot for a while because I was really 905 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,920 building the business around teaching. 906 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,960 But when I do play out, they are the best. 907 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,800 The biggest benefit I have now is I don't have to practice that 908 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:57,280 much to be relatively good. Now, of course, look the game 909 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,240 short game and putting. If I went on and play with you 910 00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:01,200 Utah, you'd be like Todd, you hit it really good, but you're 911 00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,040 you're putting terrible, right, because the game requires you to 912 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:08,080 practice. But but I'm not sharp like I 913 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,520 used to be, but I'm a pretty good golfer all the time without 914 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:12,880 having to practice much because the the the swing. 915 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,440 It's it's simple. You I I my biggest problem with 916 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,360 golf is that I just got to go out there and let the club do 917 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,040 the work because I'm out there trying to be the tour player I 918 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,840 was back when I was playing. And if I just go out there and 919 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,680 and make good swings, I hit good shots and so let the mechanics 920 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,200 do their job, you know, and, and so let that swing just I always 921 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,480 tell people to swing the swings already inside of you. 922 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:39,800 You just got to position yourself and let it come out of 923 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:44,680 you by just with good positions and good swing motion and and so 924 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,160 now I just, I just enjoy the game. 925 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,440 The biggest thing for me and, and, and the thousands of people 926 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:54,320 that I've been able to teach is just enjoying playing the game 927 00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,800 and hitting good golf shots. It's about enjoyment. 928 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,320 You'd be surprised at how little is about score with, with the 929 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,680 people I teach. I mean, score becomes a factor. 930 00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:05,760 When you hit a good, you want to score well, right? 931 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,760 But when you're not, when you don't hit the ball well and 932 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,480 you're not a good ball striker, score becomes irrelevant. 933 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:17,840 It becomes about #1 enjoying the game, hitting fairways, hitting 934 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,640 greens, not looking for golf balls the whole time. 935 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,280 And then score becomes some somewhat secondary. 936 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,840 Because if I if, if I said to you, hey, I'll tell you what, 937 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,400 let's go out and play golf and I'm going to have you hit it in 938 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,720 the trees every single time off the tee, but you're still going 939 00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:35,680 to shoot even par. You'd be like, yeah, that's 940 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,360 great. I shot you on par, but it sucked 941 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,480 because I'm in the trees all day long, you know, so that's what 942 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,240 you're going to say. But if I said, if I said you 943 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:44,320 hate, you're going to hit every fairway, you're going to RIP it 944 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,240 down the fairway really nice down the middle, you're going to 945 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,680 hit it on the green, but you're going to three putt every hole. 946 00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:49,800 You would walk off the course go. 947 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:51,280 I didn't putt very well, but I hit it good. 948 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,840 It's fun, right? So, so it it's it comes down to 949 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,160 enjoyment. It really does. 950 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,440 And that's what I'm just helping people have fun playing golf and 951 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,560 if I can get them to, you know, the guys, I had two guys in my 952 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,720 Academy here today or yesterday and one once in his early, early 953 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:10,760 40s. One guy was 80 and they both 954 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,640 came up to me and they said, Todd, they said I would not be 955 00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,040 playing golf. It wasn't for you and MO Norman. 956 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,120 I would have quit because of frustration and because of maybe 957 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,280 back pain or injury and giving people hope that there's an 958 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,080 easier way. And, and so I that's those are 959 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,560 my trophies now, right? Those people are my trophies. 960 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,080 The people that are actually 80 year old guy, that's that his 961 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,880 wife's like you're crazy, you're crazy to keep playing golf. 962 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,040 Why you keep doing this? He goes because I found an 963 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,360 easier way and I love hitting golf shots right. 964 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,160 I love the feeling of the golf ball and I'm like that's what I 965 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,080 do it for. The 80 year old got it and wants 966 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,640 to keep hitting it solid and wants to keep playing golf 967 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:47,880 because he because it helps them. 968 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:51,760 Absolutely. And then on more, what would you 969 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,560 hope that people remember a bit more most? 970 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,160 Well, I mean, you know, the documentary will be a big part 971 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:01,640 of, of hopefully really telling the story about MO. 972 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,760 He's such a unique character. But I, I think what I want 973 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,720 people to realize is that when there's a lot of people in the 974 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:12,960 world like MO that are that we kind of discount, we, we think, 975 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:14,560 well, they're not, they're, they're not normal. 976 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:15,720 They don't, they don't act normal. 977 00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:18,440 They don't have normal lives. No, didn't have a bank account. 978 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,240 He didn't have a checking account. 979 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,800 I mean, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't know. 980 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,320 I remember one time in his car, I said, MO, I just like to dig 981 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,120 through his car because all the stuff was in his car. 982 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,800 And I opened his glove box up and a bunch of papers blew out. 983 00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,800 And I run, I'm running around the parking lot with a Golf Club 984 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,960 trying to trap these papers. And I pick one up and it's a 985 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,480 check for $15,000 and it's, it's like 60 days old. 986 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,120 And I'm, he goes, I need to shove it back to the glove box, 987 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,320 you know, And because he just didn't, he didn't pay attention 988 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,360 to that stuff. But I'm just appreciating this, 989 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,440 who he was. And I think we got to 990 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,680 appreciate, we appreciate guys like MO Norman who can really 991 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,760 have these gifts and, you know, we can really learn from them. 992 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,520 And I just want to realize he was such, he was a wonderful guy 993 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:01,200 and he was so unique, which we need to we need to celebrate 994 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,920 people like MO. That's why I hope MO brings that 995 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,480 to the world a little bit when when we could tell a story. 996 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,520 Absolutely. And then what would you hope 997 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,080 that people remember about your contribution on us as well, 998 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:14,440 Todd? Well, I just tell people that, 999 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,600 that, you know, I had a friend of me from my ass the other day. 1000 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:19,120 He goes tell what? What's gonna happen when you're 1001 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,880 gone? Like, you know, MO's gone. 1002 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,760 What if we're gone? I said, look, take my, my legacy 1003 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,640 will be all the people I've taught the single point swing 1004 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,040 and they, they're going to carry on the tradition of, of Moe's 1005 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,560 single point swing. So that's my mission is that the 1006 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,560 more people I can teach this to, the more people that I can. 1007 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:37,640 And I got coaches, a lot of coaches too. 1008 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,560 I was on a coaches meeting yesterday with, with 10 of my 1009 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,440 coaches. It's the coaches that are 1010 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,000 teaching it and it's the people they teach. 1011 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,280 It'll be the legacy of this. It won't be just one guy like 1012 00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,200 me. It'll be, hey, the most story 1013 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:49,440 will be out there, which is great. 1014 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,160 It'll it'll be documented, but it's going to be the how many 1015 00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,400 people are out there in Singapore And by the way, watch 1016 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,120 the kids watch the kids when he hand them a Golf Club out there. 1017 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,200 They don't, they don't they, they, they put out there just 1018 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,080 like no Norman, they stick it in a straight line because they 1019 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,200 that's the easiest way to hit that thing on the ground with a 1020 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,040 stick. And then we change them into 1021 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,120 this, lower your hands, stand closer to the ball and be 1022 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,760 complicated. So let the kids be kids and let 1023 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,040 them let them naturally hit a golf ball and you'll see a bunch 1024 00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,400 of Bo Norman's out there hitting the dead straight. 1025 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,640 So that's the legacy of it. But I mean, well, Todd, thanks 1026 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:25,720 so much for coming on. The show has been fascinating to 1027 00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:28,680 hear from you and I'm so pleased that we got Tierra. 1028 00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,920 But your own journey as well in terms of people following up and 1029 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,000 want to know more about the singles playing swing, How can 1030 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,360 they get in touch with you and how can they learn with you? 1031 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,600 You always go to my website and look, I tell people to e-mail me 1032 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:47,080 directlyiftheylikeitstodd.g@gravesgolf.com. We have plenty of resources. 1033 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,680 We have a, an online single plane Academy which you can go 1034 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,040 register for free and we we do lots of instruction. 1035 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:54,840 We have a lot of live events going on all the time. 1036 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,880 And then I finished a book just recently called the Intelligent 1037 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,840 Golf Swing, which they can pick up on Amazon or they they can go 1038 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:04,200 to the intelligentgolfswing.com and pick up a copy of the book. 1039 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,880 I wrote this book with the help of AI to have this discussion 1040 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,000 about MO and about all the discoveries that I made about 1041 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,960 his swing. And we put that into a into a 1042 00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:15,880 book, which has been really a fun thing for me because it's 1043 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,280 Brian's a little bit of AI into the MO Norman world. 1044 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,800 MO's on the cover of the book, by the way, so they want to get 1045 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,280 that. That's a really fun book and by 1046 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,960 it'll be out in Audible in an audio version here pretty soon 1047 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,360 as well. So you can pick up a copy of my 1048 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:29,320 book. You can e-mail me directly at 1049 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,720 todd.g@gravesgolf.com where you can go to 1050 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:36,160 mywebsitesgravesgolf.com and and find out all the information 1051 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,960 about it. Fantastic. 1052 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,240 Well, thanks so much for coming on. 1053 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:41,880 It's been a real privilege to hear from you, Todd, and all the 1054 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,840 best for the future. Thank you, Roz. 1055 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,400 It's great to be on your show. I appreciate that. 1056 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,560 I'd like to thank Todd for his time and for sharing not only 1057 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,840 his own journey through the game, but also such personal 1058 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,160 insight into life and legacy of MO Norman. 1059 00:51:56,720 --> 00:51:59,040 If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to subscribe and 1060 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,240 switch on automatic downloads wherever you're listening. 1061 00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:03,600 And if you know someone who loves the game, please share it 1062 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:05,440 with them. You can find the show on 1063 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,200 Instagram at Linked by Golf podcast for future episodes, 1064 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:11,640 clips and insights. And if you've got a moment, 1065 00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:14,080 please leave a review. It really does help us reach 1066 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,600 more golfers just like you. I'm Ross McGuire. 1067 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,240 Thanks for listening. 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