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Well, hello, friends. 
Thank you so much for joining me

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for another episode of Reading 
Michael Jackson. 

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I am your host, Lena, and I'm 
really happy to be back here 

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with you today to continue 
reading Moonwalk. 

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Now, I have to say I have been 
very busy the last couple of 

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weeks. 
Right now for me, in the past 

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when I'm recording this, it is 
the week leading up to 

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Christmas, and as someone who 
celebrates Christmas, I have 

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been very, very busy. 
So I have a lot going on, 

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including getting ready to debut
Season 2 of reading Michael 

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Jackson. 
Just before this, I was 

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attempting to record the 
trailer. 

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We'll see how messy that turns 
out. 

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Who knows? 
But if you are here, then it 

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obviously works and I'm very 
happy to have you. 

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Now I could go on and on as I 
always do, but I will say I have

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not had much time for Michael. 
So this is a wonderful moment 

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for me to get back into the 
reading of this book and talking

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about Michael and dreaming about
Michael and all the things that 

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I love about Michael. 
So if you are ready to join me 

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today, we will be reading a 
slightly longer segment so that 

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we close out the section 
appropriately. 

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We will be reading from pages 81
to page 100. 

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So if you'd like to read along, 
you are more than welcome to. 

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But otherwise, I now invite you 
to relax, get comfortable, get 

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cozy, and join me for this 
continued reading of Michael 

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Jackson's Moonwalk. 
As I said before, in those early

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days, the corporation produced 
and shaped all of our music. 

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I remember lots of times when I 
felt the song should be sung one

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way and the producers felt it 
should be sung another way. 

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But for a long time I was very 
obedient and wouldn't say 

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anything about it. 
Finally, it reached a point 

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where I got fed up with being 
told exactly how to sing. 

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This was in 1972, when I was 14 
years old, around the time of 

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the song, looking through the 
windows. 

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They wanted me to sing a certain
way and I knew they were wrong. 

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No matter what age you are, if 
you have it and you know it, 

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then people should listen to 
you. 

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I was furious with our producers
and very upset, so I called 

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Berry Gordy and complained. 
I said that they had always told

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me how to sing and I had agreed 
all this time, but now they were

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getting too mechanical. 
So he came into the studio and 

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told them to let me do what I 
wanted to do. 

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I think he told them to let me 
be more free or something. 

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And after that I started adding 
a lot of vocal twists that they 

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really end up loving. 
I do a lot of ad libbing, like 

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twisting words or adding some 
edge to them. 

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When Barry was in the studio 
with us, he would always add 

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something that was right. 
He'd go from studio to studio 

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checking on different aspects of
people's work, often adding 

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elements that made the records 
better. 

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Walt Disney used to do the same 
thing. 

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He'd go check on his various 
artists and say, well, this 

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character should be more 
outgoing. 

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I always knew when Barry was 
enjoying something I was doing 

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in the studio because he has 
this habit of rolling his tongue

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in his cheek when he's pleased 
by something. 

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If things were really going 
well, he'd punch the air like 

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the ex professional boxer he is.
My three favorite songs from 

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those days are Never Can Say 
Goodbye, I'll Be There and ABC. 

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I'll never forget the first time
I heard Abci. 

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Thought it was so good. 
I remember feeling this 

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eagerness to sing that song to 
get in the studio and really 

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make it work for us. 
We were still rehearsing daily 

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and working hard. 
Some things didn't change, but 

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we were grateful to be where we 
were. 

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There were so many people 
pulling for us and we were so 

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determined ourselves that it 
seemed anything could happen. 

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Once I Want You Back came out. 
Everyone at Motown prepared us 

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for success. 
Diana loved it and presented us 

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at a big name Hollywood 
discotheque where she had us 

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playing in a comfortable party 
atmosphere like at Berry's 

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Following. 
Directly on the heels of Diana's

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event came an invitation to play
at the Miss Black America 

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telecast. 
Being on the show would enable 

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us to give people a preview of 
our record and our show. 

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After we got the invitation, my 
brothers and I remembered our 

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disappointment at not getting to
go to New York to do our first 

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TV show because Motown had 
called. 

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Now we were going to do our 
first TV show and we were with 

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Motown. 
Life was very good. 

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Diana, of course, put the cherry
on top. 

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She was going to host the 
Hollywood Palace, a big Saturday

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night show. 
It would be her last appearance 

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with The Supremes and the first 
major exposure for us. 

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This meant a lot to Motown 
because by then they had decided

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that our new album would be 
called Diana Ross Presents the 

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Jackson 5. 
Never before had a superstar 

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like Diana pass the torch to a 
bunch of kids. 

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Motown, Diana, and five kids 
from Gary, IN were all pretty 

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excited. 
By then, I Want You Back had 

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come out and Barry was proven 
right again. 

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All the stations that played Sly
and The Beatles were playing us 

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too. 
As I mentioned earlier, we 

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didn't work as hard on the album
as we did on the single, but we 

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had fun trying out all sorts of 
songs from Who's Loving You, the

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old miracle song we were doing 
in the talent show Days, to 

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Zippity Doo Dah. 
We did songs on that album that 

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appealed to a wide audience, 
kids, teenagers and grown-ups, 

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and we all felt that was a 
reason for its success. 

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We knew that the Hollywood 
Palace had a live audience, A 

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sophisticated Hollywood crowd, 
and we were concerned, but we 

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had them from the first note. 
There was an orchestra in the 

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pit, so that was the first time 
I heard all of it. 

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All of I Want You Back performed
live because I wasn't there when

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they recorded the strings for 
the album. 

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Doing that show made us feel 
like kings, the way winning the 

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citywide show and Gary had. 
Selecting the right songs for us

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to do was going to be a real 
challenge now that we weren't 

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depending on other people's hits
to win a crowd. 

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The Corporation guys and Hal 
Davis were put to work writing 

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songs especially for us as well 
as producing them. 

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Barry didn't want to have to 
bail us all out again, so even 

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after our first singles hit #1 
on the charts we were busy with 

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the follow-ups. 
I Want You Back could have been 

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sung by a grown up, but ABC and 
The Love You Save were written 

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for our young voices with parts 
for Jermaine as well as me. 

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Another bow to the sly sound, 
which rotated singers around the

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stage. 
The corporation had also written

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those songs with dance routines 
in mind. 

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The steps our fans sit at 
parties as well as those we did 

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on stage. 
The verses were tongue twisting 

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and that's why they were split 
up between Jermaine and me. 

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Neither of those records could 
have happened without I Want You

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Back. 
We were adding and subtracting 

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ideas in the arrangements from 
that one mother lode of a song, 

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but the public seemed to want 
everything we were doing. 

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We later made two more records 
in the vein Mama's Pearl and 

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Sugar Daddy, which reminded me 
of my own schoolyard days. 

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While I'm giving you the candy, 
he's getting all your love. 

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We added one new wrinkle when 
Jermaine and I sang Harmony 

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together, which always got an 
enthusiastic response when we 

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did it from the same mic on 
stage. 

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The pros have told us that no 
group had a better start than we

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did. 
Ever I'll Be There was our real 

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breakthrough song. 
It was the one that said we're 

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here to stay. 
It was #1 for five weeks, which 

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is very unusual. 
That's a long time for a song. 

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And the song was one of my 
favourites of all the songs 

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we've ever done. 
How I loved the words You and I 

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must make a pact. 
We must bring salvation back. 

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Willie Hutch and Berry Gordy 
didn't seem like people who'd 

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write like that. 
They were always kidding around 

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with us when we weren't in the 
studio. 

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But that song grabbed me from 
the moment I heard the demo. 

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I didn't even know what a 
harpsichord was until the 

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record's opening notes were 
played for us. 

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The song was produced thanks to 
the genius of Hal Davis, 

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assisted by Susie Aikita, my 
other half, who stood next to me

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song after song, making sure I 
put the right emotion and 

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feeling and heart into the 
composition. 

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It was a serious song, but we 
threw in a fun part when I sang 

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without the honey. 
That's right out of The Four 

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Tops. 
Great song. 

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Reach out, I'll be there. 
So we were feeling more and more

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like a part of Motown's history 
as well as its future. 

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Originally, the plan was for me 
to sing all the bouncy stuff and

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Jermaine to do all the ballads. 
But though Jermaine's voice at 

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17 was more mature, ballads were
more my love, if not really my 

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style. 
Yet that was our fourth straight

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#1 as a group, and a lot of 
people liked Jermaine's song. 

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I found that girl the B side of 
the love you save just as much 

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as the hits. 
We worked those songs into one 

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big medley with plenty of room 
for dancing. 

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We went back to the medley when 
we performed on all kinds of TV 

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shows. 
For instance, we played on The 

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Ed Sullivan Show three different
times. 

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Motown always told us what to 
say in interviews back then, but

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Mr. Sullivan was one of the 
people who drew us out and made 

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us feel comfortable. 
Looking back, I wouldn't say 

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Motown was putting us in any 
kind of straight jacket or 

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turning us into robots, even 
though I wouldn't have done it 

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that way myself. 
And if I had children, I 

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wouldn't tell them what to say. 
The Motown people were doing 

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something with us that hadn't 
been done before, and who was to

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say what was the right way to 
handle that sort of stuff? 

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Reporters would ask us all kinds
of questions, and the Motown 

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people would be standing by to 
help us out or monitor the 

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questions if need be. 
We wouldn't have dreamed of 

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trying anything that would 
embarrass them. 

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I guess they were worried about 
the possibility of our sounding 

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militant, the way people were 
often doing in those days. 

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Maybe they were worried after 
they gave us those Afros that 

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they had created little 
Frankensteins. 

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Once a reporter asked a Black 
Power question and the Bowtown 

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person told him we didn't think 
about that stuff because we were

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a commercial product. 
It sounded weird, but we winked 

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and gave the power salute when 
we left, which seemed to thrill 

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the guy. 
We even had a reunion with Don 

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Cornelius on his Soul Train 
show. 

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He had been a local disc jockey 
during our Chicago days, so we 

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all knew one another from that 
time. 

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We enjoyed watching his show and
picked up ideas from those 

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dancers who were from our part 
of the country. 

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The crazy Days of the Big 
Jackson 5 tours began right 

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after the success we had with 
our records. 

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It started with a big arena tour
in the fall of 1970. 

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We played huge halls like 
Madison Square Garden and the 

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Los Angeles Forum. 
When Never Can Say Goodbye was a

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big hit in 1971, We played 45 
cities that summer, followed by 

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50 more cities later that year. 
I recall most of that time as a 

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period of extreme closeness with
my brothers. 

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We have always been a very loyal
and affectionate group. 

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We clowned around, goofed off a 
lot together, and played 

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outrageous pranks on each other 
and the people who worked with 

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us. 
We never got too rowdy. 

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No TV's sailed out of the hotel 
windows, but a lot of water was 

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spilled on various heads. 
We were mostly trying to conquer

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the boredom we felt from being 
so long on the road. 

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When you're bored on tour, you 
tend to do anything to cheer 

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yourself up. 
Here we were cramped up in these

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hotel rooms, unable to go 
anywhere because of mobs of 

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screaming girls outside, and we 
wanted to have some fun. 

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I wish we could have captured 
some of the stuff we did on a 

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film, especially some of the 
wild pranks. 

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We'd all wait until our security
manager, Bill Bray, was asleep. 

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Then we'd stage insane fast walk
races in the hallways. 

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Pillow fights, tag team 
wrestling matches, shaving cream

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wars, you name it. 
We were nuts. 

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We'd drop balloons and paper 
bags full of water off hotel 

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balconies and watch them 
explode. 

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Then we'd die laughing. 
We threw stuff at each other and

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spent hours on the phone making 
fake calls and ordering immense 

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room service that were delivered
to the rooms of strangers. 

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Anyone who walked into one of 
our bedrooms had a 90% chance of

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00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,600
being drenched by a bucket of 
water propped over the door. 

227
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:51,560
When we arrived in a new city, 
we'd try to do all of the 

228
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,480
sightseeing we could. 
We travelled with a wonderful 

229
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,680
tutor, Rose Fein, who taught us 
a great deal and made sure we 

230
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:01,720
did our lessons. 
It was Rose who instilled in me 

231
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,840
a love of books and literature 
that sustains me today. 

232
00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:08,160
I've read everything I could get
my hands on. 

233
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,120
New cities meant new places to 
shop. 

234
00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,880
We loved to shop, especially in 
bookstores and department 

235
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,200
stores. 
But as our fame spread, our fans

236
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,920
transformed casual shopping 
trips into hand to hand combat. 

237
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,960
Being mobbed by near hysterical 
girls was one of the most 

238
00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,760
terrifying experiences for me in
those days. 

239
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:34,360
I mean, it was rough. 
We'd decide to run into some 

240
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,920
department store to see what 
they had and the fans would find

241
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,720
out we were there. 
It would demolish the place, 

242
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,040
just tear it up. 
Counters would get knocked over,

243
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,720
glass would break. 
The cash registers would be 

244
00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,560
toppled. 
All we had wanted to do was look

245
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,880
at some clothes. 
When those mob scenes broke out,

246
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,880
all the craziness and adulation 
and notoriety became more than 

247
00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,880
we could handle. 
If you haven't witnessed a scene

248
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,480
like that, you can't imagine 
what it's like. 

249
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,240
Those girls were serious. 
They still are. 

250
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,640
They don't realize they might 
hurt you because they're acting 

251
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,600
out of love. 
They mean well, but I can 

252
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,520
testify that it hurts to be 
mobbed. 

253
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,240
You feel as if you're going to 
suffocate or be dismembered. 

254
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,160
There are 1000 hands grabbing at
you. 

255
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,520
One girl is twisting your wrist 
this way while another girl is 

256
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,880
pulling your watch off. 
They grab your hair and pull 

257
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,120
hard and it hurts like fire. 
You fall against things and the 

258
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,800
scrapes are horrible. 
I still wear the scars, and I 

259
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,520
can remember in which city I got
each one of them. 

260
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,840
Early on, I learned how to run 
through crowds of thrashing 

261
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,200
girls outside of theaters, 
hotels and airports. 

262
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,560
It's important to remember to 
shield your eyes with your hands

263
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,880
because girls can forget they 
have nails during such emotional

264
00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,480
confrontations. 
I know the fans mean well and I 

265
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,800
love them for their enthusiasm 
and support. 

266
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,560
The crowd scenes are very scary.
The wildest mob scene I ever 

267
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,360
witnessed happened the first 
time we went to England. 

268
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,640
We were in the air over the 
Atlantic when the pilot 

269
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,600
announced that he had just been 
told there were 10,000 kids 

270
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,720
waiting for us at Heathrow 
Airport. 

271
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,880
We couldn't believe it. 
We were excited, but if we could

272
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,360
have turned around and flown 
home, we might have. 

273
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,960
We knew this was going to be 
something, but since there 

274
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,360
wasn't enough fuel to go back, 
we flew on. 

275
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,200
When we landed, we could see 
that the fans had literally 

276
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,520
taken over the whole airport. 
It was wild to be mobbed like 

277
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,360
that. 
My brothers and I felt fortunate

278
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,720
to make it out of the airport 
alive that day. 

279
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,800
I wouldn't trade my memories of 
those days with my brothers for 

280
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,800
anything. 
I often wish I could relive 

281
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,200
those days. 
We were like the seven dwarfs. 

282
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,120
Each of us was different. 
Each had his own personality. 

283
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,960
Jackie was the athlete and the 
warrior. 

284
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,400
Tito was the strong, 
compassionate father figure. 

285
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,040
He was totally into cars and 
loved putting them together and 

286
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,000
tearing them apart. 
Jermaine was the one I was 

287
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,680
closest to when we were growing 
up. 

288
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,640
He was funny and easygoing and 
was constantly fooling around. 

289
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,920
It was Jermaine who put all 
those buckets of cold water on 

290
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,880
the doors of our hotel rooms. 
Marlon was and is one of the 

291
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,960
most determined people I've ever
met. 

292
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,240
He too, was a real joker in 
Prankster. 

293
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,360
He used to be the one who'd 
always get me in trouble in the 

294
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:40,120
early days because he'd be out 
of step or miss a note, but that

295
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,680
was far from true later. 
The diversity of my brother's 

296
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,520
personalities and the closeness 
we felt were what kept me going 

297
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,920
during those grueling days of 
constant touring. 

298
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,400
Everybody helped everybody. 
Jackie and Tito would keep us 

299
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,200
from going too far with our 
pranks. 

300
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,320
They'd seem to have us under 
control. 

301
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,280
And then Jermaine and Marlon 
would shout, let's go crazy. 

302
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,080
I really miss all of that. 
In the early days, we were 

303
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,240
together all the time. 
We'd go to amusement parks or 

304
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,720
ride horses or watch movies. 
We did everything together. 

305
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,400
As soon as someone said I'm 
going swimming, we'd all yell me

306
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,400
too. 
The separation from my brothers 

307
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,240
started much later when they 
began to get married. 

308
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,640
An understandable change 
occurred as each of them became 

309
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,880
closest to his wife and they 
became a family unit unto 

310
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,720
themselves. 
A part of me wanted us to stay 

311
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,600
as we were brothers who were 
also best friends. 

312
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,840
But change is inevitable and 
always good in one sense or 

313
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,160
another. 
We still love each other's 

314
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,080
company. 
We still have a great time when 

315
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,400
we're together, but the various 
paths our lives have taken won't

316
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:48,240
allow us the freedom to enjoy 
one another's company as much as

317
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,840
we did in those days. 
Touring with the Jackson 5I 

318
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:53,360
always shared a room with 
Jermaine. 

319
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,520
He and I were close both on 
stage and off, and shared a lot 

320
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,560
of the same interests. 
Since Jermaine was also the 

321
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,320
brother most intrigued by the 
girls who wanted to get at him, 

322
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,240
he and I would get into mischief
on the road. 

323
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,200
I think our father decided early
on that he had to keep a more 

324
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,040
watchful eye on us than on our 
other brothers. 

325
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,440
He would usually take the room 
next to ours, which meant he 

326
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,560
could come in to check on us 
anytime through the connecting 

327
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,920
doors. 
I really despised this 

328
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,800
arrangement, not only because he
could monitor our misbehaviour, 

329
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,320
but also because he used to do 
the meanest things to us. 

330
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,760
Jermaine and I would be sleeping
exhausted after a show, and my 

331
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,040
father would bring a bunch of 
girls into the room. 

332
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,960
We'd wake up and they'd be 
standing there looking at us 

333
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,200
giggling because show business 
and my career were my life. 

334
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,920
The biggest personal struggle I 
had to face those teenage years 

335
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,800
did not involve the recording 
studio or my stage performances.

336
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,600
In those days, the biggest 
struggle was right there in my 

337
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,280
mirror. 
To a great degree, my identity 

338
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,080
as a person was tied to my 
identity as a celebrity. 

339
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,040
My appearance began to really 
change when I was about 14. 

340
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,840
I grew quite a bit in height. 
People who didn't know me would 

341
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,040
come into a room expecting to be
introduced to cute little 

342
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,280
Michael Jackson, and they'd walk
right past me. 

343
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,960
I would say I'm Michael, and 
they would look doubtful. 

344
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,440
Michael was a cute little kid. 
I was a gangly adolescent 

345
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,200
heading toward 5 feet 10 inches.
I was not the person they 

346
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,520
expected or even wanted to see. 
Adolescence is hard enough, but 

347
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,760
imagine having your own natural 
insecurities about the changes 

348
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,480
your body is undergoing, 
heightened by the negative 

349
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,160
reactions of others. 
They seemed so surprised that I 

350
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,320
could change, that my body was 
undergoing the same natural 

351
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,800
changes everyone's does. 
It was tough. 

352
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,400
Everyone had called me cute for 
a long time, but along with all 

353
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,000
the other changes, my skin broke
out in a terrible case of acne. 

354
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,080
I looked in the mirror one 
morning and it was like, Oh no, 

355
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,000
I seem to have a pimple for 
every oil gland, and the more I 

356
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,040
was bothered by it, the worse it
got. 

357
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:14,640
I didn't realize it then, but my
diet of greasy processed food 

358
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,920
didn't help either. 
I became subconsciously scarred 

359
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,520
by this experience with my skin.
I got very shy and became 

360
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,680
embarrassed to meet people 
because my complexion was so 

361
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,360
bad. 
It really seemed that the more I

362
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,840
looked in the mirror, the worse 
the pimples got. 

363
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,520
My appearance began to depress 
me, so I know that a case of 

364
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,120
acne can have a devastating 
effect on a person. 

365
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,360
The effect on me was so bad that
it messed up my whole 

366
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:45,160
personality. 
I couldn't look at people when I

367
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,920
talked to them. 
I'd look down or away. 

368
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,880
I felt I didn't have anything to
be proud of, and I didn't even 

369
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,640
want to go out. 
I didn't do anything. 

370
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,920
My brother Marlon would be 
covered with pimples and he 

371
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,360
wouldn't care. 
But I didn't want to see 

372
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,160
anybody, and I didn't want 
anyone to see my skin in that 

373
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,680
shape. 
It makes you wonder about what 

374
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,880
makes us the way we are. 
That two brothers could be so 

375
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,280
different. 
I still had our hit records to 

376
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,080
be proud of, and once I hit the 
stage, I didn't think about 

377
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,120
anything else. 
All that worry was gone. 

378
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,720
But once I came off stage, there
was the mirror to face again. 

379
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,400
Eventually things changed. 
I started feeling differently 

380
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,760
about my condition. 
I've learned to change how I 

381
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,480
think and learn to feel better 
about myself. 

382
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,040
Most important, I changed my 
diet. 

383
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:39,480
That was the key. 
In the fall of 1971 I cut my 

384
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,680
first solo record, got to be 
there. 

385
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,680
It was wonderful working on the 
record and it became one of my 

386
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,360
favourites. 
It was Berry Gordy's idea that I

387
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,840
should do a solo recording, and 
so I became one of the first 

388
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,360
people in a Motown group to 
really step out. 

389
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,720
Barry also said he thought I 
should record my own album. 

390
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,040
Years later, when I did, I 
realized he was right. 

391
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,840
There was a small conflict 
during that era that was typical

392
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,880
of the struggles I went through 
as a young singer. 

393
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,000
When you're young and have 
ideas, people often think you're

394
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,160
just being childish and silly. 
We were on tour in 1972. 

395
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,560
The year Got to be There became 
a big hit. 

396
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,640
One night I said to our Rd. 
manager, before I sing that 

397
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,800
song, let me go off stage and 
grab that little hat I wore for 

398
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,960
the picture on the album cover. 
If the audience sees me wearing 

399
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:31,800
that hat, we'll go crazy. 
He thought it was the most 

400
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,000
ridiculous idea he had ever 
heard. 

401
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,840
I was not allowed to do it 
because I was young and they all

402
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,480
thought it was a dumb idea. 
Not long after that incident, 

403
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,080
Donny Osmond began wearing a 
very similar hat all over the 

404
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,080
country and people loved it. 
I felt good about my instincts. 

405
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,560
I had thought it would work. 
I had seen Marvin Gaye wear a 

406
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,640
hat when he sang Let's Get It 
On, and people went bananas. 

407
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,760
They knew what was coming when 
Marvin put that hat on. 

408
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,760
It added excitement and 
communicated something to the 

409
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,120
audience that allowed them to 
become more involved with the 

410
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:08,680
show I was already a devoted fan
of. 

411
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,080
I was already a devoted fan of 
film and animation by the time 

412
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,280
the Jackson Five Saturday 
morning cartoon show started 

413
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,200
appearing over network 
television in 1971. 

414
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,280
Diana Ross had enhanced my 
appreciation of animation when 

415
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,880
she taught me how to draw, but 
being a cartoon character pushed

416
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,080
me over the brink into a full 
time love of the movies and the 

417
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,240
kind of animated motion pictures
pioneered by Walt Disney. 

418
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,800
I have such admiration for Mr. 
Disney and what he accomplished 

419
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,560
with the help of so many 
talented artists. 

420
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,200
When I think about the joy he 
had, when I think about the joy 

421
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,400
he and his company have brought 
to millions of children and 

422
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,960
adults the world over, I am in 
awe. 

423
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,200
I loved being a cartoon. 
It was so much fun to get up on 

424
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,200
a Saturday morning to watch 
cartoons and look forward to 

425
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,560
seeing ourselves on the screen. 
It was like a fantasy come true 

426
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,760
for all of us. 
My first real involvement with 

427
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,520
films came when I sang the title
song for the movie Ben in 1972. 

428
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,040
Ben meant a lot to me. 
Nothing had ever excited me as 

429
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,240
much as going to the studio to 
put my voice on film. 

430
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,640
I had a great time. 
Later when the movie came out, 

431
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,720
I'd go to the theatre and wait 
until the end when the credits 

432
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,040
would flash on and it would say 
Ben sung by Michael Jackson. 

433
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,240
I was really impressed by that. 
I loved the song and I loved the

434
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840
story. 
Actually, the story was a lot 

435
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,200
like ET. 
It was about a boy who 

436
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,560
befriended a rat. 
People didn't understand the 

437
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,120
boy's love for this little 
creature. 

438
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,960
He was dying of some disease and
his only true friend, and his 

439
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,760
only true friend was Ben, the 
leader of the rats in the city 

440
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,400
where they lived. 
A lot of people thought that 

441
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:00,120
movie was a bit odd, but I was 
not one the song went to #1 and 

442
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,960
is still a favorite of mine. 
I have always loved animals, and

443
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,680
I enjoy reading about them and 
seeing movies in which they're 

444
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:24,510
featured. 
OK, so we are going to stop 

445
00:26:24,510 --> 00:26:29,030
there for the reading today. 
That actually closed out chapter

446
00:26:29,030 --> 00:26:34,990
2, so we are 100 pages and two 
chapters down at this point in 

447
00:26:34,990 --> 00:26:37,800
the book. 
O This was a sweet section. 

448
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,400
I really enjoyed it. 
There was a lot of stuff I was 

449
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,160
thinking about while reading. 
O Let's get right into this kind

450
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,920
of recap and in moment for 
commentary. 

451
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,160
So something I really liked 
about this section was that 

452
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,560
there were multiple points where
Michael really began to express 

453
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,080
his instincts as an artist and 
as a performer. 

454
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:04,760
There's multiple moments here 
where I feel like really lay 

455
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,560
that foundation for who he would
go on to become actually not 

456
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,160
that long after this, only maybe
10 years later. 

457
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,040
So the first is when he's 
talking about at the very 

458
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:21,600
beginning of this section, when 
he says, no matter what age you 

459
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,960
are, if you have it and you know
it, then people should listen to

460
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,600
you. 
And he talks about how he had 

461
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,760
complained to Barry Cordy that 
the producers were not letting 

462
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,640
him improvise or saying the way 
he believed he should. 

463
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,680
Now, let's put in perspective 
here. 

464
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,800
Michael was signed to Motown 
right around his 10th birthday. 

465
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,760
I mean, the time period we're 
talking about is, you know, 

466
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,800
anywhere from a 10 to 13 year 
old. 

467
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Maybe they jump around a little 
bit chronologically here. 

468
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,880
So it's possible he's referring 
to as he was there longer. 

469
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,800
But I get the impression, you 
know, he was a young, young 

470
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,040
person. 
And I can understand to some 

471
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,720
degree why an adult would feel 
like they needed to direct a 

472
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,800
child. 
But I mean, when you hear 

473
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,480
Michael Jackson saying as a 
child, it's understandable why 

474
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,760
he was frustrated because he is 
so unbelievably good. 

475
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,240
It it's interesting because 
actually, as he goes on in this 

476
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:27,800
chapter, he talks about how 
their albums peeled to mass 

477
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,560
audiences, children, teenagers, 
adults. 

478
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,680
And I was thinking about how 
it's not just because I love 

479
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,640
Michael Jackson as a whole that 
I say this. 

480
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,160
I think this is true of the 
world. 

481
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,400
Michael Jackson is one of the 
only child stars or young 

482
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,600
singers that I am aware of that 
adults actually like listening 

483
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,320
to. 
Now, let's let's be fair. 

484
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,320
I mean, it's not like adults 
don't enjoy the sound of 

485
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,040
children singing. 
I think they do. 

486
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,200
But I'm talking about in a 
commercial way. 

487
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,440
Like, people want to buy and 
listen to their albums just for 

488
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,440
fun and just for like, casual, 
easy listening, not going to 

489
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,880
their child's Christmas concert 
or whatever, you know? 

490
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,560
I mean, it's not common that I 
hear a child's voice that's this

491
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,520
phenomenal. 
But it was Michael's technical 

492
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:25,120
skill, his soulfulness, his 
complete control over his voice.

493
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:31,440
He references actually in this 
section how they recorded the 

494
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,600
song Who's Loving You? 
Who is loving You is just such a

495
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,400
phenomenal song and hearing the 
way Michael performs it. 

496
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,640
I, I know that people most often
reference the Ed Sullivan Show 

497
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,440
appearance where he's wearing 
the purple hat. 

498
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,440
And I've watched like countless 
reactions to that because people

499
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,240
always freak out and lose their 
minds when they hear his opening

500
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,000
notes. 
But actually, I think I want to 

501
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,640
play a little bit of one of my 
favorite performances of Who's 

502
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,320
Loving You? 
Just bear with me. 

503
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,920
I love including music in these.
And it's not probably smart 

504
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,120
because copyright does become a 
problem. 

505
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,440
Whatever. 
I want to play a little bit of a

506
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,480
live version of Michael singing 
Who's Loving You because here's 

507
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,800
the thing. 
We're reading about and talking 

508
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,560
about Michael Jackson as a child
performer. 

509
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,960
It is so hard to remember he's a
child performer when you 

510
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,600
actually hear him. 
The confidence, the charisma on 

511
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,200
stage, the the swagger, the 
vocals, it's so insane. 

512
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,640
So I'm actually going to play a 
little clip from him introducing

513
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,080
the song Who's Loving You Live 
on stage when the Jackson Five 

514
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,960
were on tour, and just let you 
hear a little bit about it, his 

515
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,080
vibe as a performer at this 
time. 

516
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,840
I'd like to talk to you all 
tonight about the Blues. 

517
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,440
Yeah, the Blues. 
Don't nobody have the Blues like

518
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,040
I have? 
What's the talk to talking 

519
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,880
about? 
I may be young, but I know what 

520
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:13,480
it's all about and this is how 
it went down. 

521
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,880
I met a girl in school one day. 
You're insane. 

522
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,040
Bye, man. 
She was fine. 

523
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,480
I mean. 
Oh, I spot. 

524
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:32,280
Yeah, but we toasted. 
I love doing milk break. 

525
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:34,880
I gave her my cookies. 
Ma'am. 

526
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,680
What, you think we fell out 
doing finger pain? 

527
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,400
Yeah. 
So one day I stepped up to. 

528
00:31:44,400 --> 00:32:20,680
I said yeah. 
As you went away, don't turn the

529
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:33,960
fire soon round with my head 
finger down and I wonder who 

530
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,160
loving. 
You, I mean, his vocals are just

531
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,280
absolutely insane, right? 
I mean, they're insane. 

532
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,680
His charisma, his swagger on 
stage, his entire way. 

533
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,080
I mean, it does not sound like a
12 year old or however old he 

534
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,000
was. 
And here, just for fun, I'm 

535
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,560
going to throw in some more of 
my favorite parts of this song. 

536
00:33:14,680 --> 00:34:01,520
Baby. 
I mean, what can I say? 

537
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:07,440
He is just freaking incredible. 
He's just so incredibly good. 

538
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,400
So when you think about this 
young man, this 10 year old, 11 

539
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,920
year old, 12 year old 
complaining because the 

540
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,960
producers aren't trusting him 
and they're not hearing him, 

541
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:25,679
this is what he sounded like. 
This is the artist that they 

542
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:30,440
were diminishing. 
So it shows Also, not only was 

543
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,040
Michaels forming his own 
artistic identity and really 

544
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:39,040
coming into his own in terms of 
his talent, it also shows how he

545
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:44,000
began to form this opinion based
on his own experiences that 

546
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,520
children have a lot to offer and
are not often listened to. 

547
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,600
You know, because he saw himself
as someone who knew exactly what

548
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,159
he was doing. 
He intuitively understood 

549
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,840
exactly how to perform and what 
to do. 

550
00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:02,080
And that's very, very rare. 
The average person, the average 

551
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,840
child, you know, does not have 
this intuition or this ability, 

552
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,520
but Michael did. 
And it just kind of shows how 

553
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:14,840
that experience for him lended 
his ability then to really feel 

554
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:20,000
a sense of compassion for kids 
who he believed also had 

555
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,120
valuable things to add and say. 
Now, this comes up a little bit 

556
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,000
at the end of the chapter as 
well. 

557
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,440
So we may circle back to it if I
remember. 

558
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:29,880
We'll see. 
But a couple more things I want 

559
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,800
to add about this section, which
is still the very early part of 

560
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:38,160
the section that I read today. 
He talks about after Berry Gordy

561
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,960
spoke to the producers and he 
was given some more freedom, he 

562
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,960
began to improvise more, he 
said. 

563
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,640
I started adding a lot of vocal 
twists that they ended up really

564
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,840
loving. 
I do a lot of ad libbing, like 

565
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:53,240
twisting words or adding some 
edge to them, and all I could 

566
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:59,080
think about was how Michael 
ultimately in his life created 

567
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,600
what was and is one of the most 
iconic vocal performances and 

568
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,320
performance styles ever 
recorded. 

569
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,680
I mean, it's not just Michael's 
tone that people would instantly

570
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:16,600
recognize his vocal ability for 
the the way in which he actually

571
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:22,440
performs, the rhythmic way he 
works in his breath and gasps. 

572
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,240
And I know some people call them
like hiccups and all these 

573
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:27,840
things. 
Like the way he does that as a 

574
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,800
vocal performer. 
It started very young where he 

575
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,440
intuitively just knew he wanted 
and could play with his voice. 

576
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,560
And it's so cool. 
That's why I said that. 

577
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:42,720
Like, it's just neat to see the 
very early sign of who he would 

578
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:46,240
become, you know, to see where 
all of that began. 

579
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:49,840
And I, that's something that I 
personally am really hoping to 

580
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,680
witness and see in the biopic is
Michael's specific artistry 

581
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,200
coming to life. 
You know, it's just a really 

582
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,200
cool thing to bear witness to 
even just through his own words 

583
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,280
reflecting on that time of his 
life. 

584
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,840
Michael also spends some time 
talking about Walt Disney and 

585
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,040
his admiration for Walt Disney. 
He, he mentions him a couple of 

586
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,160
times actually in this section, 
first when he's talking about 

587
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,760
working style and then later 
when he's talking about his love

588
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,320
of animation and film. 
And something I, I want to point

589
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,120
out about this, he talks about 
how he's amazed by what Walt 

590
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,040
Disney achieved and what the 
Disney Company achieved in being

591
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,000
able to, to provide 
entertainment and joy and 

592
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,360
happiness for people around the 
world through his team of 

593
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,160
artists. 
So taking his vision and 

594
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,280
entrusting artists to fulfill 
it. 

595
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,920
And one of the things I thought 
about was how Michael was such a

596
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:54,280
collaborator as an artist from 
all accounts of people who have 

597
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,480
worked with him. 
And I've listened to like 

598
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,200
hundreds of interviews with 
people who have worked with him.

599
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,240
From all accounts, he was 
someone who genuinely loved to 

600
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:09,880
hear from people and to see 
people perform at their best and

601
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,040
bring their best ideas and 
challenge themselves. 

602
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:17,200
And he loved to encourage a 
little bit of competitive, you 

603
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,280
know, a little bit of a 
competitive spirit among the 

604
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,400
collaborators he worked with. 
And he was good at drawing out 

605
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,680
the best. 
So many people would say that. 

606
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,800
And in fact, I am jumping ahead 
a little bit here in Michael's 

607
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:33,360
life, but one of my favorite 
Michael Jackson related books is

608
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,840
The King of Style by Michael 
Bush. 

609
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,600
He was one of Michael's primary 
fashion designers and costume 

610
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:45,000
designers for both his life and 
his artistic appearances and 

611
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,000
things, but as well as his 
performance. 

612
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,200
And so that's fashion, right? 
But Michael Bush writes in this 

613
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,480
book so much about creative 
process and trust and 

614
00:38:55,480 --> 00:39:00,120
inspiration, and it really made 
me feel inspired by Michael's 

615
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:05,240
words through him in terms of 
how to access your very best and

616
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,240
to dig really deep into 
yourself. 

617
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,120
I bring all of this up because 
sometimes Michael, in online 

618
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:18,000
conversations, especially among 
fans of certain artists, is 

619
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,320
diminished because he alone did 
not write every single lyric or 

620
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:27,000
produce every single song or 
play every instrument recorded. 

621
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:32,840
But there's a specific genius 
that often goes unacknowledged. 

622
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,680
And it's the genius that comes 
with the ability to bring out 

623
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,720
the very best in other people 
and to see the best in others 

624
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:43,480
and allow people to shine in 
service of something greater 

625
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:45,120
than just yourself and your own 
ego. 

626
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,440
We are often culturally fed this
image of like the solo genius, 

627
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,640
and while that is true, and I 
want to give credit to anybody 

628
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:59,000
who does on a solo level create 
phenomenal art, there's an 

629
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,880
overlooked genius to the ability
to collaborate with people and 

630
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,120
bring out such a high level of 
quality in everyone who you work

631
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,960
with. 
So I just think it's cool there 

632
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,680
to see even here, these 
interviews that created this 

633
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,960
book were recorded well before 
he began recording the Dangerous

634
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,440
album, when he really began to 
lean into collaboration more. 

635
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:28,360
So I just think it's cool to see
that from his whole lifestyle, 

636
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,240
the way he grew up watching 
people work and collaborate in 

637
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:35,960
this corporation of Motown and 
the people he admired for their 

638
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,800
ability to harness greatness 
from teams like Walt Disney. 

639
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,360
There was always this aspect of 
togetherness for Michael that 

640
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,800
was rooted in respect for other 
people's abilities and artistic 

641
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,280
visions, while also having a 
tremendous sense of self respect

642
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,400
for himself and having a very 
high standard. 

643
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,040
So I just think it's neat to to 
see that. 

644
00:40:56,720 --> 00:41:00,720
Something else Michael talks 
about regarding the music he was

645
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:04,760
recording with Motown, 
especially within the Jackson 5,

646
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,440
was how certain songs could have
been sung by adults and certain 

647
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,920
songs seemed and felt 
specifically written for them as

648
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,600
children. 
Now, I think that this is really

649
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,600
notable because there have been 
so many times that I've listened

650
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,040
to the Jackson 5 discography and
that I've heard other people 

651
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:26,080
comment about this, that Michael
was singing about emotional 

652
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,400
experiences and sometimes even 
somewhat like sensual 

653
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,640
experiences at an age that was 
really quite young for some of 

654
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,600
the content. 
Actually, even just Speaking of 

655
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:40,600
Who's Loving You, which we 
talked about a little bit ago, 

656
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,240
Who's Loving You is such an 
intense song, you know, 

657
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:48,680
emotionally and for a little kid
to sing that is kind of it's 

658
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,720
almost comical. 
And it would it would be comical

659
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:56,360
if he wasn't so good at it. 
But because he was so good, I 

660
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,520
think we can accept it in some 
way. 

661
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,920
But when he mentions this here 
about how like I Want You Back 

662
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,080
could be sung by an adult, 
which, yeah, it definitely 

663
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,440
could. 
But ABC and The Love You Save 

664
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:12,880
have specific references to 
being a kid, specific references

665
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,760
to school, the playground and 
things like that. 

666
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,800
And, and in that sense, it's 
really sweet. 

667
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:24,640
It's also ironic, you know, it's
ironic that Michael was singing 

668
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,800
these songs and not having those
experiences himself. 

669
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:33,680
You know, it actually reminds me
of the sadness I feel about the 

670
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,720
Jackson 5 Christmas album in 
that I've always thought it was 

671
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:42,040
really especially painful that 
this child and this group of 

672
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,400
this group of children, but this
child and Michael specifically, 

673
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,120
was not allowed to experience 
Christmas or celebrate Christmas

674
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,720
in the way that other children 
were, but was required to sing 

675
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:57,760
about it and sing about the 
magic of it that he couldn't 

676
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,120
relate to and was kind of kept 
outside of. 

677
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,840
I've always felt that that was 
kind of cruel. 

678
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,280
It's always really bothered me a
little bit. 

679
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,240
I mean, I still enjoy, I love 
hearing the Jackson 5 songs at 

680
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:11,840
Christmas, but it's still, it 
always makes me a little sad. 

681
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,800
I guess my point is that there's
something interesting about the 

682
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,600
content, the lyrical content of 
the songs he's singing and a 

683
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,600
lack of life experience 
connected to those songs, 

684
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,960
whether that be like Christmas, 
like I just said, or the more 

685
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,520
mature songs that he was 
singing. 

686
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,640
There's a section when Michael 
specifically talks about the 

687
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,680
song I'll Be There. 
And I'm not going to say a lot 

688
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,560
about this, but it's so nice, 
isn't it? 

689
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,280
It's so nice to read which songs
Michael himself really loved. 

690
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,400
Like he loved ABC, he loved I'll
Be There. 

691
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,720
And just knowing he loved those 
songs, I don't know, there's 

692
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:54,040
something really sweet to me 
about that because there were so

693
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,360
many songs he sang his whole 
life and like, we don't know how

694
00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,720
he really felt about it. 
But with Alby there, this is one

695
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:03,280
of those songs that I can barely
listen to. 

696
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,000
I always, even prior to becoming
a Michael Jackson fan, I always 

697
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,280
found that song. 
Like it made me too emotional 

698
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:14,040
for some reason. 
But specifically since becoming 

699
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:18,320
a Michael fan, like I honestly 
can't listen to it and I love 

700
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:19,760
it. 
It's such a good song, but I 

701
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,080
can't listen to it when it's 
little Michael's voice singing 

702
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,680
it. 
It destroys me because his voice

703
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,960
is so pure and angelic and sweet
and I just can't stand it. 

704
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,200
When it's adult Michael, it 
kills me in a totally different 

705
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,440
way. 
It it breaks my heart and I I 

706
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:40,520
don't know how to describe it 
without getting depressing and 

707
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,160
I'm not going to do that today. 
But anyway, I love that it's one

708
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,240
of his favorite songs. 
I think it's objectively one of 

709
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:51,160
the best Jackson 5 songs, but 
it's it's just too much for me. 

710
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,680
I I can't. 
Do you have songs like this? 

711
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,400
I I, I, I always wonder from 
people like whether Michael 

712
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,080
songs or otherwise, but songs 
that are just too much for you 

713
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,720
to touch and you love them, but 
you just can't even go there. 

714
00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:05,120
That's I'll be there for me. 
Oh my God. 

715
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,840
Michael also spends a little bit
of time here talking about the 

716
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,920
Motown training now. 
I talked about this I think last

717
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,240
week a little bit in terms of 
like the media training and the 

718
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:18,400
control over how they're 
supposed to talk. 

719
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,680
And he talks about that directly
here. 

720
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,840
He says it's not like they were 
in straitjackets, but they were 

721
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,320
really not allowed to speak out 
about anything. 

722
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,520
And he talks about this 
specifically in reference to 

723
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,360
race, where at the time in the 
US, race relations were really 

724
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,680
volatile. 
And they as young, handsome 

725
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,760
black men with afros, there was 
this expectation on some level, 

726
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,680
it seems, for them to speak out 
about it. 

727
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,000
But they were really told not 
to. 

728
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,040
And they wanted to kind of 
silently or secretly communicate

729
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,280
their beliefs on their own, but 
they really weren't allowed to 

730
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,880
speak out. 
I appreciate that he doesn't 

731
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,160
blame them. 
Like I love what he says here is

732
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,160
the Motown people were doing 
something with us that hadn't 

733
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,520
been done before and who was to 
say what was the right way to 

734
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,080
handle that sort of stuff? 
Something I, I love that he says

735
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,120
this because I think in general,
it is easy for us to question, 

736
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,760
not necessarily Motown, but just
like different aspects of how 

737
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,360
things were handled in Michael's
life. 

738
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,600
We're just like, just actually 
step back a little bit. 

739
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,600
Just like in our own lives, it's
easy to be critical of how other

740
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,360
people did things because we 
have the benefit of hindsight. 

741
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:39,320
But it's much more gracious to 
remember like, hey, maybe I 

742
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,760
wouldn't make this choice, but 
back then they did the best that

743
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,200
they could. 
I have personally found that to 

744
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,560
be a very freeing and helpful 
philosophy to sort of adopt for 

745
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,480
my own personal life that I like
that he says that here. 

746
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:56,840
I guess I just see that there's 
some wisdom in that and I think 

747
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,560
it shows the kind of person he 
really was and that he didn't 

748
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,440
want to find fault with Motown 
or point fingers at any specific

749
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,040
person or entity for him. 
Feeling frustrated as a child, 

750
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,080
but rather like recognizing this
was a a rare and unique 

751
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,880
circumstance. 
It's funny how much of Michael's

752
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:17,840
life was like that though, where
he was the first to do something

753
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,120
or he was involved in something.
That was the very beginning of 

754
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,800
the first way to handle 
something. 

755
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,440
Like, for example, this is 
totally unrelated to this topic,

756
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,880
but it's the same concept. 
People often will say now, why 

757
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,040
didn't Michael come forward 
about his vitiligo sooner? 

758
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:36,800
Why didn't he name it vitiligo 
sooner? 

759
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:41,480
Why didn't he show his vitiligo?
Because we have people today, 

760
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,760
artists, models, Instagram 
models and TikTok people and all

761
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,560
that. 
We have all these people who now

762
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,960
live in a world in which it is 
considered beautiful, or at 

763
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:57,080
least online, considered 
beautiful to come out and be 

764
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,640
open and proud of your skin and 
your complexion and everything. 

765
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:04,200
But that wasn't the world 
Michael was in, you know? 

766
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,280
And Michael's own journey with 
that is part of the reason why 

767
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,960
there isn't a foundation now of 
a world where people can openly 

768
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,480
show their complexion when they 
have vitiligo. 

769
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,360
So it's like it's easy for 
people in the future to look 

770
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:21,320
back and say, why did they do 
this differently? 

771
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:26,080
They should have, but it's much 
harder in the moment when what 

772
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:28,360
precedent is there for how you 
should handle something, you 

773
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,520
know? 
I don't know, maybe that's a 

774
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:31,560
silly connection, but it's just 
something I thought of. 

775
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,200
Michael also spends a lot of 
time in this section talking 

776
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,720
about going on tour with his 
brothers and the time he spent 

777
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:42,520
with his brothers, as well as 
his experiences of early fame. 

778
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,040
So I want to first comment on 
the relationship with his 

779
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,800
brothers. 
While I was reading this, I 

780
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:53,440
couldn't help but smile thinking
about these kids this young age,

781
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,320
like, like he said, bored out of
their minds, stuck in hotel 

782
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,440
rooms, not able to do things and
what they did with themselves. 

783
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,080
I mean, I remember with my 
siblings, we were hellions just 

784
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,640
going to the grocery store, you 
know, these kids in these hotel 

785
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:10,120
rooms. 
I mean, I don't blame them. 

786
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,560
I did laugh, though, like 
internally because I had to 

787
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,760
read, you know, because a lot of
the things that he describes 

788
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,320
doing is stuff he would like 
continue to do as an adult, you 

789
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,120
know? 
And it actually makes me wonder 

790
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,320
a little bit if part of him, you
know, continuing to do like 

791
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,080
water balloons and things like 
that out of his windows and 

792
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,400
things off of his balconies. 
If part of that was not only, of

793
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,880
course, that Michael had this 
like very alive inner child, but

794
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,400
also maybe it was part of like, 
that's what you do on tour. 

795
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,960
Like it's just shenanigans. 
It's just silliness because that

796
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,680
was weighted growing up. 
And it's, it is maybe hard to 

797
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,760
separate that silliness from the
act of being on tour. 

798
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,480
And I'm sure he wouldn't be able
to do that if he was just on his

799
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,600
own. 
But when he had friends and 

800
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,600
family and and whatnot with him,
it would be a lot easier to 

801
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,320
access that kind of silly nature
within himself. 

802
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:11,320
I think there's something kind 
of sweet about it though. 

803
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,240
And I love hearing about those 
stories for him because it it 

804
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:19,520
does kind of, I mean, the 
circumstances are weird, right? 

805
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,960
Because he was locked in a hotel
room and he wasn't able to do 

806
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,680
anything really. 
But it reminds you that like he 

807
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:31,320
did have joy in his childhood. 
As much as it sounds like it was

808
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,240
very difficult, it also there 
was a lot of joy too, and they 

809
00:50:35,240 --> 00:50:38,880
made the most of it. 
I also really like hearing about

810
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,520
his relationship to his brothers
and what they were like, their 

811
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,680
personalities, how they were 
different from him and 

812
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,080
specifically his relationship 
with Jermaine because they 

813
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,080
obviously ended up having a, a 
sort of freight of relationship.

814
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:58,080
Especially after the 1980s. 
There were a lot of problems and

815
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,600
they became pretty distant at 
different times from what we 

816
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,640
understand. 
And obviously there's a lot of 

817
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:06,600
kind of heat in the fan 
community about Jermaine because

818
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,560
of the diss track word to the 
bad and all those things that we

819
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,320
primarily as Michael fans, we 
blame Jermaine for in certain 

820
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,280
ways. 
You know, I, I think that it's 

821
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,360
nice to read that they were 
actually very close and they had

822
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:24,280
a lot in common. 
And that is mirrored in the way 

823
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,720
Jermaine talks in his book about
Michael, which is one of the 

824
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:30,360
reasons, I know I've mentioned 
it already on this season. 

825
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,200
But one of the reasons I do 
recommend Jermaine Jackson's 

826
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,920
book, You Are Not Alone is that 
he gives real serious insight 

827
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,880
into Michael's childhood and who
he was as a child. 

828
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,800
And when we read, even from 
Michael's own words that they 

829
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,600
were the closest it, it really 
does make sense. 

830
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,440
And you can sort of trust 
Jermaine's perspective more, 

831
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,000
especially from those childhood 
years. 

832
00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,880
So I just want to mention that 
also, just like a brief sidebar 

833
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,520
here, what is with Joseph 
Jackson? 

834
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:08,600
Like, can you even imagine your 
little children have been 

835
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,600
performing and are exhausted and
you're bringing in girls to like

836
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,800
giggle and look at them when 
they're in bed? 

837
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,440
That bothers me so much because 
it's just like, not only are 

838
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,640
they tired and deserve 
uninterrupted sleep, they were 

839
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,760
young boys. 
And I can't imagine a more 

840
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,080
humiliating feeling for a bunch 
of young boys just becoming more

841
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,520
and more interested in girls 
than to wake up and seeing a 

842
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,360
bunch of girls there. 
That's so embarrassing and 

843
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:35,120
obviously really bothered 
Michael. 

844
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:40,040
So it's just another example of 
Joseph, whether or not he meant 

845
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,480
that to be like awful or not, 
there's a there's something 

846
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:48,920
sadistic about the way he 
interacted with these kids 

847
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,880
sometimes, you know? 
And it, it just bothers me a lot

848
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:53,960
and obviously bothered Michael a
lot. 

849
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,520
There are a few more things I 
want to point out. 

850
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,760
I'll try to be quick about it. 
This is already a pretty long 

851
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,440
episode, but a few more things I
want to say. 

852
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:07,600
Michael goes on at length about 
how terrifying and awful it is 

853
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,240
to be mobbed. 
This is not the only time we 

854
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,760
ever hear him saying this. 
There is an interview I have 

855
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:19,160
watched 1000 times, for reasons 
I won't get into, of Michael in 

856
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,640
the thriller era. 
He's beautiful and he that is 

857
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,560
the reason, by the way. 
But he is beautiful. 

858
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,720
And I think it's 1983 
Entertainment Tonight and 

859
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:31,200
they're interviewing him about 
his experience of fame. 

860
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,480
And I'll actually, I'll just 
maybe play the little clip for 

861
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,760
you here with how he talks about
it. 

862
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,360
How do you feel and how have you
felt over the years about the 

863
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,280
crowds who I mean even come up 
on stage and try to get near you

864
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:46,800
What, what goes through your 
mind when that happens? 

865
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:55,120
That they enjoy what I do and 
they want to shake my hand or 

866
00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:01,000
touch me. 
And I think it's wonderful if 

867
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,080
that's what they want to do and 
it's a good thing and I'm 

868
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:06,880
protecting something that is 
good. 

869
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,200
I think it's wonderful. 
But at the same time I mean. 

870
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:14,200
As long as they don't hurt me. 
But being the private kind of 

871
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,800
person that you are, I mean, 
some people love it, you know, 

872
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,960
there's some people love it when
fans just swoop. 

873
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,800
It hurts to be mobbed. 
I bet it does. 

874
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,880
Spaghetti with 1000 hands coming
at it. 

875
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:35,120
Yeah, I appreciate them enjoying
my music and what I do, and I 

876
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,640
guess that's their way of 
showing how much they love you. 

877
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,080
But is that a difficult time for
you when people come up to you 

878
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,120
and. 
No, I've learned how to handle 

879
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:48,320
it. 
How is that? 

880
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,240
Just to be kind to them and wave
at them or if they want an 

881
00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:58,160
autograph, give me an autograph.
The security usually take care 

882
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:01,880
of anybody who is rough or who 
really wants to pull you or grab

883
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,720
you. 
Now you can tell, right? 

884
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:10,000
Like even in this clip, he is 
trying to retain a certain 

885
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,440
semblance of respect for the 
fan. 

886
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:14,920
He doesn't want to make them 
feel bad. 

887
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,640
He doesn't want to say the wrong
thing. 

888
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:23,280
It bothers me that he can't just
say like, my God, stop, like 

889
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:27,600
leave me alone. 
But I understand and I think it 

890
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,400
was very genuine also. 
I mean, I do genuinely think he 

891
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:34,360
appreciated their enthusiasm and
was moved by it, but he was also

892
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:39,120
a human being and how could you 
not be sort of disgusted by 

893
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,400
fellow human beings when you see
them act that way? 

894
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,280
He's obviously going to write 
about this in a very tempered 

895
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,480
way because he doesn't want to 
put off his fans, he doesn't 

896
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,920
want to upset them. 
And I'm sure, again, he 

897
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,160
genuinely appreciated that they 
loved him so much and were so 

898
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,720
invested in him. 
But he's a human being. 

899
00:55:55,720 --> 00:56:00,920
I cannot even imagine having 
people jump at me, grab me, 

900
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,080
total strangers. 
These are total strangers to 

901
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:09,080
him, jumping at him, grabbing at
him, pulling at him. 

902
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:11,280
That would be terrifying, you'd 
think. 

903
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,360
Like he said he was fearful. 
Like he said in the book, he 

904
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,760
would be fearful that he would 
be suffocated. 

905
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,760
I mean, that is something that 
no adult should have to go 

906
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,720
through, let alone a child. 
And again, I understand these 

907
00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:26,320
are child fans. 
I understand, and I get it. 

908
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,280
My God, I don't know what I 
would do in the presence of 

909
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,200
Michael Jackson. 
Nothing good, at least not for 

910
00:56:31,200 --> 00:56:32,520
Michael. 
Nothing. 

911
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,040
But I I would lose my mind. 
But it's just like on a human 

912
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,320
level, come on. 
It's crazy. 

913
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:43,200
But he went through this story 
about 10,000 fans. 

914
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,040
Now, who knows how accurate that
number is, but 10,000 fans 

915
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:49,200
waiting at the airport and 
people want to say that Michael 

916
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,920
blew up in the 80s, but like, 
come on, you know, early 1970s 

917
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,560
global tours, national tours. 
He said at one point they played

918
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:02,200
like 50 shows in the summer and 
another 45 later that year. 

919
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,160
Insane. 
I mean, insane levels of work, 

920
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:12,800
insane levels of exposure, of 
fame, of just idolatry thrust 

921
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,920
upon him. 
That is difficult and I can't 

922
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,160
help but really feel for him 
when I hear about that. 

923
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:23,480
It makes me also think, though, 
about how that would have become

924
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:29,440
really for Michael, this measure
of how loved he was. 

925
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,840
So as much as it ruined his life
to have fans outside that he 

926
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,360
literally couldn't do anything. 
He couldn't go anywhere. 

927
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:42,080
I would imagine it would hurt 
him so much also if they didn't 

928
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,360
care and they didn't show up. 
I'm not talking about when he 

929
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,080
was a child. 
I'm talking about as he got 

930
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:51,400
older and especially as the 
media became more degrading 

931
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,880
toward him and he didn't know 
really how the world felt about 

932
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,880
him. 
It it would have been this this 

933
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:01,080
double edged sword where on one 
hand you need the space and 

934
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:05,840
freedom, on the other hand you 
don't know who you are without 

935
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,280
it. 
You don't know who you are if 

936
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:11,120
you have that, if you have space
and freedom, because you're not 

937
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,120
used to it, because having space
and freedom could be a sign that

938
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,680
you're not loved anymore. 
That's so complicated. 

939
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,600
And he talks about that a little
bit, actually, in terms of the 

940
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:25,720
way his self identity, he says, 
was formed alongside of his 

941
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:30,760
identity as a celebrity with how
he perceived himself as he got 

942
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,120
older. 
Of course it did. 

943
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,040
Of course it did. 
It's so distressing in a way to 

944
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:43,240
think that Michael going through
adolescence had to constantly 

945
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:48,680
confront people surprised to see
his appearance change in ways 

946
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,160
that were 100% natural and to be
expected because they had this 

947
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:55,600
image of who he was going to be 
forever. 

948
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,840
And it makes me wonder if part 
of Michael changing his 

949
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,360
appearance as he got older. 
And by that, I mean, you know, 

950
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,760
stylistically, I mean, yes, of 
course, cosmetic changes, but 

951
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:08,920
I'm talking a lot about the 
stylistic changes and the 

952
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,840
various different kind of 
personas he played with in his 

953
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,480
adult career. 
If part of that came from this 

954
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:19,040
place of knowing you're never 
going to be enough for people, 

955
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:21,080
you're never going to be. 
They're never going to be happy 

956
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:23,680
with your appearance at any 
given moment because they're 

957
00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,560
always going to think about who 
you were before. 

958
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,480
Because by the time he was 14, 
he was being reminded of, 

959
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,640
reminded by people that he was 
already letting them down, that 

960
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,160
they had this vision of him 
being a certain way and they 

961
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:40,400
wanted that to be who he was. 
So when at that age, you're 

962
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,840
like, already made aware that 
your fans and the public and 

963
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:48,600
everybody wants you to stay a 
certain way forever. 

964
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:50,640
And, you know, you can't do 
that. 

965
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,640
Especially, I imagine, as he 
developed a vitiligo, seeing his

966
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,160
skin change and knowing, OK, 
what am I going to do about 

967
00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:58,720
this? 
That would have been really 

968
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,000
difficult. 
That would have been really hard

969
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,480
for him, you know. 
So it makes me wonder if he just

970
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,440
kind of embraced it because he's
like, hey, you know, what can I 

971
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,440
do? 
They're going to have problems 

972
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,880
with it either way. 
The people who are really 

973
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,120
invested in me will follow me 
still. 

974
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:17,280
And he was right, of course. 
But I don't know, I, I really 

975
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,440
feel heartbroken whenever I 
think about Michael as a 

976
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:24,040
teenager and he talks at one 
point like, why I was I like 

977
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,520
this when Marlon wasn't. 
And part of his, of course, 

978
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:29,240
like, you know, just 
personality. 

979
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,400
You know, kids can be raised in 
the same home. 

980
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,040
They just have different 
personalities or different 

981
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,560
people. 
And so even raised in the same 

982
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,640
home around the same people, 
having really similar 

983
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:41,320
experiences, they may experience
those things completely 

984
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,960
differently. 
But Marlon was also never front 

985
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,240
and center. 
Michael was front and center 

986
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,320
from the time he was like 5 
years old. 

987
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:55,600
So it makes sense to me that 
Marlon never had the pressure of

988
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,240
everybody in the world staring 
at him. 

989
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,840
Specifically for Michael, the 
intensity attached to like, oh, 

990
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,920
the Jackson 5 is getting older 
would be absolutely most 

991
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,080
attached to Michael and 
Jermaine, but mostly Michael. 

992
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,720
So it kind of makes me sad that 
even in Michael comparing like 

993
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,480
I, I honestly don't know that he
understood how different his 

994
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,000
experience was even compared to 
his brothers because of course 

995
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,040
they're treated the same as this
group. 

996
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,600
But ultimately, Michael was the 
biggest star in the group and 

997
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,560
the front of the group. 
Like he was the one the cameras 

998
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,440
were on the whole time. 
He was the one with the voice 

999
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,840
and the specific moves that made
people lose their minds. 

1000
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:39,120
I mean, that was Michael's role.
That's a lot harder to take 

1001
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,320
people not liking the way you 
look or criticizing your 

1002
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,320
appearance than being somebody 
that, I mean, no offense to 

1003
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:45,680
Marlon. 
I don't mean this in a bad way, 

1004
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,720
but is more like a background 
figure, you know what I mean? 

1005
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:55,560
So sometimes it it strikes me 
that Michael himself didn't have

1006
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,560
the full capacity, at least at 
this age, to understand what 

1007
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,320
made his life so much more 
unique than even his brothers. 

1008
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:04,480
And the part of that could be 
the way the family framed it as 

1009
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,560
like a whole unit, but it could 
be also him. 

1010
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:10,280
Like he didn't. 
I don't know how much he really 

1011
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:15,080
gave himself space to 
acknowledge what he was 

1012
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,000
personally going through and 
experiencing. 

1013
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:23,000
I'm glad that he says here like 
he began to accept himself more 

1014
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:27,400
and has a different relationship
to the way he looks and changed 

1015
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,640
his diet and he felt more 
confident in himself. 

1016
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:33,240
But those kind of child scars 
don't really go away. 

1017
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:37,320
I mean, you can absolutely heal 
and become more confident, but 

1018
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,080
they don't really go away. 
And it was pretty evidenced 

1019
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,240
throughout Michael's life that 
his did not go away. 

1020
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:47,240
So I feel for him, imagining 
this book coming out during the 

1021
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:50,400
height of the bad era when 
people were for some reason 

1022
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,760
critical of his appearance and 
the changes in his appearance. 

1023
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,160
And I'm thinking about how hard 
it must have been for him to 

1024
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,080
say, like, yeah, I'm confident 
in the way I am. 

1025
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,680
I'm OK with myself and actually 
have people believe him, but he 

1026
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,160
really talks here in this 
section about how he had this 

1027
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:11,360
divide in his persona where he 
would go on stage and become a 

1028
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,480
different person and he'd come 
off stage and he would once 

1029
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,440
again have to contend with the 
mirror. 

1030
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:20,280
It seems like that divide maybe 
started here and then continued 

1031
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:24,720
throughout his life where there 
was this sense of safety on 

1032
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,560
stage and a lack of safety off 
stage. 

1033
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,160
And I've often thought of the 
safety on stage is more because,

1034
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:35,080
oh, he's like receiving the 
adoration of thousands of 

1035
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,240
people, and that feels like a 
safe, warm place. 

1036
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,440
But now I'm wondering if maybe 
off stage felt unsafe because he

1037
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:45,440
couldn't escape himself or his 
own mind when he was off stage. 

1038
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:49,080
Oh my gosh, that's so sad. 
Michael. 

1039
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,840
Oh, my goodness. 
I, I love him so much. 

1040
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,280
Poor Michael. 
I feel, I feel so much for him 

1041
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,920
with with this stuff. 
I mean, like he said, 

1042
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:59,680
adolescence is hard enough, 
insecurity is hard enough. 

1043
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:05,040
The heightened experience of 
those things through the very 

1044
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:08,320
unique life he led, it's just 
heartbreaking to me. 

1045
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,360
Anyway, We'll, we'll, we'll move
on because we need to. 

1046
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,200
But yeah, we'll continue with 
that. 

1047
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:16,960
I'm sure he closes the chapter 
with a few things. 

1048
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,520
And I'll just very briefly touch
on, I love that he mentions here

1049
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,600
that he early on had this idea 
after the album Got to Be There 

1050
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,560
came out that he would get his 
hat that he's wearing on the 

1051
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:32,040
cover and wear it on stage in 
order to invite the audience 

1052
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:34,400
into the experience more. 
And I love that. 

1053
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,520
I'm sure we'll talk about this 
more later, but it's again 

1054
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,480
again, that early evidence of 
the artist and performer he 

1055
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,680
would eventually become. 
Because Michael was so good at 

1056
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:47,960
that. 
Making you feel connected as a 

1057
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:51,600
member of the audience to what 
was going on on stage because 

1058
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:56,560
you already have a familiarity 
with the imagery and you're 

1059
01:04:56,560 --> 01:05:00,560
excited and just and 
anticipating it because of that.

1060
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:05,360
It's so cool that he did that to
begin with, like later in his 

1061
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,600
career, but the fact that the 
origin of those ideas came when 

1062
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:12,600
he was like 13 is unbelievable 
to me. 

1063
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:18,280
Like, what an unreal instinct 
for showmanship that he had, you

1064
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,840
know, at such a young age. 
God, I love it. 

1065
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:26,600
The final part, though, he talks
about the song for Ben and how 

1066
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,080
he connected to that story. 
And I just wanted to mention 

1067
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,080
that because obviously he's 
referencing it in terms of his 

1068
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:37,040
love of animals, but I really 
want to mention it in terms of 

1069
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:42,120
the early signs of Michael 
longing for friendship, of 

1070
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,640
Michael relating to a child, for
example, that's in a hospital 

1071
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,720
that doesn't have anyone to talk
to. 

1072
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:54,080
Like there there's the 
psychology of Michael Jackson is

1073
01:05:54,080 --> 01:06:00,240
so evident so early on in his 
life, the way he related to 

1074
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:03,160
things other people maybe 
thought were a little bit weird 

1075
01:06:03,160 --> 01:06:05,720
or didn't understand. 
I've always felt like that 

1076
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,920
myself, especially with art. 
And so I I very much appreciate 

1077
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,440
that and what he says. 
But I love that he compares the 

1078
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:16,400
movie Ben to the movie ET when 
he says people didn't understand

1079
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:18,320
the boy's love for this little 
creature. 

1080
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,080
He was dying of some disease and
his only true friend was Ben. 

1081
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:24,520
And he says a lot of people 
thought it was weird, but I 

1082
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:29,040
didn't. 
Early on in Michael's life, he 

1083
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:32,160
had friendships with animals and
he felt connected to animals. 

1084
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,480
And it's evidenced here and it's
evidenced throughout so many 

1085
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:39,440
decisions he made in his life 
that yes, he would get mocked 

1086
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,200
for and he would get made fun of
for, but he never had a hard 

1087
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:45,400
time understanding that 
connection humans could have 

1088
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:47,400
with animals. 
He never struggled to. 

1089
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,680
It always made sense to him. 
And I think it's because he was 

1090
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:54,200
such a highly sensitive person, 
and highly sensitive people have

1091
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:57,840
the ability to find beauty and 
love and connection with 

1092
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,920
everything in the world, not 
just other kids or other people.

1093
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:04,400
And that's so evidenced in 
Michael. 

1094
01:07:06,120 --> 01:07:07,920
I love him so much. 
I love this man. 

1095
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:10,200
I love spending time with his 
story this way. 

1096
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:12,840
So I am going to close here. 
This is much longer than I 

1097
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,200
intended. 
I do apologize. 

1098
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,840
I'll try to edit it down. 
Right now it's at almost an hour

1099
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:19,400
and a half. 
So whatever it ends up being, 

1100
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:22,520
just know I I trimmed the hell 
out of this thing. 

1101
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,080
That said though, I am looking 
forward to continuing reading 

1102
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:29,120
next week when we kick off 
chapter 3. 

1103
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,640
I hope you all have a wonderful 
week and weekend and we will 

1104
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,280
talk again very, very soon.