1 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:07,920 Well, hello friends, thank you all so much for joining me for 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,080 another episode of Reading Michael Jackson. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,160 I am your host Lena, and I am so happy to be here with you to 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:23,120 continue our reading of Moonwalk if you are counting the pages we 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,840 have left. Then, you know, we are nearly 6 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,120 finished with this book, guys. Like we have 2 episodes, 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:36,400 including this one left of actually reading Michael 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,040 Jackson, of reading at Moonwalk. So we're nearly, nearly done. 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,600 And that is quite frankly bizarre to me. 10 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,160 I feel like we've only just begun and yet here we are 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,560 wrapping up as we prepare for the release of the biopic. 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,000 Oh my goodness. There's so much I can say about 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,960 the biopic and all of the recent press we've been seeing. 14 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:05,400 By the time this episode airs, Jafar Jackson will have appeared 15 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,320 on a few different talk shows. They'll certainly be more clips 16 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:12,400 circulating. So I'm not even going to attempt 17 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,960 to comment on where we're at right now in terms of our 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,160 perception of this film. But I do know that, like so many 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,760 of you, I am incredibly, incredibly excited about the 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:26,360 film and us getting closer to it. 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,680 And I don't know about you, but as it gets closer, I'm getting a 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,840 little bit nervous. And I don't mean that in a bad 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:35,360 way. I mean I'm nervous in a good 24 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,680 way. Like I'm excited, but I'm also 25 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,800 like, I've been waiting for this for years. 26 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,000 You know, at this point, it's been years of thinking about it 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,720 and be excited about it and it's coming to be. 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,160 And that is always a little bit scary, like when you get the 29 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,040 thing you've been wanting. Aren't you a little afraid? 30 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,640 I know I am. So either way, we still have a 31 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:01,720 few weeks left until we get there. 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:07,160 So the plan is to finish up this book next week and then after 33 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,680 that have one final episode discussing the whole book and 34 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,840 how we can understand and prepare ourselves for what this 35 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,400 biopic may. Include. 36 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,960 So I'm looking forward to that. Without going into that any 37 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,280 further though, I'm looking forward to that. 38 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,720 To be honest, I have not had a lot of time for Michael lately 39 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,160 outside of this podcast. I recently moved and lots of 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,120 other things going on personally, so I am just barely 41 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,800 keeping it together enough to show up each week. 42 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,600 So I'm excited to dive back into the world of Michael for a 43 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,400 little while. So to recap, last week we 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,200 started Chapter 6, which is the final chapter of Moonwalk. 45 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,200 And in that episode we largely talked about the Pepsi incident 46 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:56,120 or the burn that Michael endured. 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,320 We talked about the Victory Tour, a lot of Michael's 48 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,800 thoughts and feelings about his fans and connections to his 49 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,960 fans. So we're picking up from there. 50 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,440 If you were following along with me, I will be reading from. 51 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:17,360 The bottom of page 252 to the top of page 265 S Now is the 52 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,720 time that I invite you to relax, get comfortable, get cozy. 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,960 And join me for this continued reading of Moonwalk. 54 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,280 We were on the Victory tour when we learned that my sister Janet 55 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,040 had gotten married. Everybody was afraid to tell me 56 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,400 because I am so close to Janet. I was shocked. 57 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,880 I feel very protective of her. Quincy Jones's little daughter 58 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,600 was the one to break the news to me. 59 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,800 I've always enjoyed a wonderfully close relationship 60 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,160 with all three of my beautiful sisters. 61 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,360 Latoya is really a wonderful person. 62 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,960 She's very easy to be around, but she can be funny, too. 63 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,200 You go in her bedroom and you can't sit on the couch, you 64 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,000 can't sit on the bed, you can't walk on the carpet. 65 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,160 This is the truth. She will run you out of her 66 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,520 room. She wants everything to be 67 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,880 perfect in there. I say you have to walk on the 68 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,520 carpet sometimes, but she doesn't want prints. 69 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,120 On it. If you cough at the table, she 70 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,080 covers her plate. If you sneeze, forget it. 71 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,120 That's how she is. Mother says she used to be that 72 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,440 way herself. Jana, on the other hand, was 73 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,440 always a tomboy. She has been my best friend in 74 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,280 the family for the longest time. That's why it killed me to see 75 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:50,600 her go off and get married. We did everything together. 76 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,920 We shared the same interests, the same sense of humor. 77 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,120 When we were younger, we'd get up on free mornings and write 78 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,840 out a whole schedule for the day. 79 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:01,920 Usually it would read something like. 80 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,080 This. Get up, feed the animals, have 81 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,640 breakfast, watch some cartoons, go to the movies, go to a 82 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,360 restaurant, go to another movie, go home and go swimming. 83 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,160 That was our idea of a great day. 84 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,720 In the evening we'd look back at the list and think about all the 85 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,440 fun we'd had. It was great being with Janet 86 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,120 because we didn't have to worry that one of us wouldn't like 87 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,920 something. We liked the same things we'd 88 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,120 sometimes read to each other. She was like my twin. 89 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,680 Latoya and I are very different. On the other hand, she won't 90 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,400 even feed the animals. The smell alone drives her away. 91 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,720 And forget about going to the movies. 92 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,840 She doesn't understand why I see Star Wars or close Encounters or 93 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:48,400 Jaws. Our tastes in films are miles 94 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,800 apart. When Janet was around and I 95 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,760 wasn't working on something, we'd be inseparable. 96 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,520 But I knew we'd eventually develop separate interests and 97 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,680 attachments. It was inevitable. 98 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,080 Her marriage didn't last long, unfortunately, but now she's 99 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,160 happy again. I do think marriage can be a 100 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,960 wonderful thing if it's right for the two people involved. 101 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,600 I believe in love very much, so how can you not believe after 102 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,000 you've experienced it? I believe in relationships. 103 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,440 One day I know I'll find the right woman and get married 104 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,120 myself. I often look forward to having 105 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,400 children. In fact, it would be nice to 106 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,640 have a big family since I come from such a large one myself. 107 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,760 In my fantasy about having a large family, I imagine myself 108 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:37,320 with 13 children. Right now. 109 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,480 My work still takes up most of my time and most of my emotional 110 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,880 life. I work all the time. 111 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,080 I love creating and coming up with new projects. 112 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,440 As for the future, Quesarah Sarah, time will tell. 113 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,320 It would be hard for me to be that dependent on someone else, 114 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,640 but I can imagine it if I try. There's so much I want to do and 115 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:03,120 so much work to be done. I can't help but pick up on some 116 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,240 of the criticism levelled at me. At times. 117 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,440 Journalists seem willing to say anything to sell a paper. 118 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,520 They say I've had my eyes widened, that I want to look 119 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,080 more white, More white. What kind of statement is that? 120 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,240 I didn't invent plastic surgery. It's been around for a long 121 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,680 time. A lot of very fine, very nice 122 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,960 people have had plastic surgery. No one writes about their 123 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,760 surgery and levies such criticism at them. 124 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,040 It's not fair. Most of what they print is a 125 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,680 fabrication. It's enough to make you want to 126 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,240 ask what happened to the truth? Did it go out of style? 127 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,920 In the end, the most important thing is to be true to yourself 128 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,440 and those you love and work hard. 129 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,040 I mean work like there's no tomorrow. 130 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,440 Train, strive. I mean really train and 131 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,520 cultivate your talent to the highest degree. 132 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,960 Be the best at what you do. Get to know more about your 133 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,280 field than anybody alive. Use the tools of your trade. 134 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,840 If it's books or a floor to dance on or a body of water to 135 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,720 swim in, whatever it is, it's yours. 136 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,200 That's what I've always tried to remember. 137 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,040 I thought about it a lot on the Victory Tour. 138 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,400 In the end, I felt I touched a lot of people on the Victory 139 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,120 Tour. Not exactly in the way I wanted 140 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,480 to, but I felt that would happen later when I was off on my own 141 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,159 performing and making movies. I donated all of my performance 142 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:37,400 money to charity, including funds for the burn center that 143 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,720 helped me after the fire on the Pepsi set. 144 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,480 We donated more than $4 million that year. 145 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,360 For me, that was what the Victory Tour was all about, 146 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,080 giving back after my experiences with the Victory Tour. 147 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,080 I started making my career decisions with more care than 148 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,520 ever. I had learned a lesson on an 149 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,280 earlier tour, which I remembered vividly during the difficulties 150 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,760 with Victory. We did a tour years ago with 151 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,480 this guy who ripped us off. But he taught me something. 152 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,600 He said, listen, all these people work for you. 153 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,920 You don't work for them. You are paying them. 154 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,600 He kept telling me that. Finally, I began to understand 155 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,800 what he meant. It was an entirely new concept 156 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,160 for me because at Motown, everything was done for us. 157 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,480 Other people made our decisions. I've been mentally scarred by 158 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,040 that experience. You've got to wear this. 159 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,000 You've got to do these songs. You're going here, you were 160 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,560 going to do this interview and that TV show. 161 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:42,200 That's how it went. We couldn't say anything. 162 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,640 When he told me I was in control, I finally woke up. 163 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,600 I realized he was right. Despite everything, I owe that 164 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,600 guy a debt of gratitude. Captain EO came about because 165 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,840 the Disney Studios wanted me to come up with a new ride for the 166 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,120 parks. They said they didn't care what 167 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,280 I did as long as it was something creative. 168 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,800 I had this big meeting with them and during the course of the 169 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,920 afternoon I told them that Walt Disney was a hero of mine and 170 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,760 that I was very interested in Disney's history and philosophy. 171 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,320 I wanted to do something with them that Mister Disney himself 172 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,560 would have approved. I had read a number of books 173 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:28,280 about Walt Disney and his creative empire and it was very 174 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,800 important to me to do things as he would have. 175 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,840 In the end, they asked me to do a movie and I agreed. 176 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:38,440 I told them I would like to work with George Lucas and Steven 177 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,360 Spielberg. It turned out Steven was busy, 178 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,800 so George brought in Francis Ford Coppola. 179 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,080 And that was the Captain EO team. 180 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,960 I flew up to San Francisco a couple of times to visit George 181 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,360 at his place, Skywalker Ranch, and gradually we came up with a 182 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,720 scenario for a short film that would incorporate every recent 183 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,120 advance in 3D technology. Captain EO would look and feel 184 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,560 like the audience was in a spaceship along for the ride. 185 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,080 Captain EO is about transformation and the way music 186 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,880 can help to change the world. George came up with the name 187 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,800 Captain EO. EO is Greek for Dawn. 188 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,720 The story is about a young guy who goes on a mission to this 189 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,480 miserable planet run by an evil queen. 190 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,160 He is entrusted with the responsibility of bringing the 191 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,400 inhabitants light and beauty. It's a great celebration of good 192 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,760 over evil. Working on Captain EO reinforced 193 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,320 all the positive feelings I've had about working in film. 194 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,000 It made me realize more than ever that movies are where my 195 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,400 future path probably lies. I love the movies, and I have 196 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,560 since I was real little. For two hours, you could be 197 00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:53,320 transported to another place. Films can take you anywhere. 198 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,680 That's what I like. I can sit down and say OK, 199 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:01,360 nothing else exists right now, take me to a place that's 200 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,760 wonderful and make me forget about my pressures and my 201 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,680 worries and day-to-day schedule. I also love to be in front of a 202 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:13,200 35mm camera. I used to hear my brother say 203 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,480 I'll be glad when this shoot is over and I couldn't understand 204 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,040 why they weren't enjoying it. I would be watching, trying to 205 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,080 learn, seeing what the director was trying to get, what the 206 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,040 light man was doing. I wanted to know where the light 207 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,080 was coming from and why the director was doing a scene so 208 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,120 many times. I enjoyed hearing about the 209 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,680 changes being made in the script. 210 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,600 It's all part of what I consider my ongoing education in films. 211 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,920 Pioneering new ideas is so exciting to me, and the movie 212 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,880 industry seems to be suffering right now from a dearth of 213 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,960 ideas. So many people are doing the 214 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,800 same things. The big studios remind me of the 215 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,480 way Motown was acting when we were having disagreements with 216 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,680 them. They want easy answers. 217 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:56,800 They want their people to do formula stuff. 218 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,360 Shore bets. Only the public gets bored. 219 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,280 Of course, so many of them are doing the same old corny stuff. 220 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,680 George Lucas and Steven Spielberg are exceptions. 221 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,760 I'm going to try to make some changes. 222 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,520 I'm going to try to change things around someday. 223 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,320 Marlon Brando has become a very close and trusted friend of 224 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,400 mine. I can't tell you how much he's 225 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,440 taught me. We sit and talk for hours. 226 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,200 He has told me a great deal about the movies. 227 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,080 He is such a wonderful actor, and he has worked with so many 228 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,440 giants in the industry, from other actors to cameramen. 229 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,000 He has a respect for the artistic value of filmmaking 230 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,040 that leaves me in awe. He's like a father to me. 231 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,680 So these days movies are my #1 dream, but I have a lot of other 232 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:46,960 dreams too. In early 1985, we cut We Are The 233 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,160 World, an all night All Star recording session that was held 234 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,000 after the ceremony for the American Music Awards. 235 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,600 I wrote the song with Lionel Richie after seeing the 236 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,440 appalling news footage of starving people in Ethiopia and 237 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,320 the Sudan. Around that time, I used to ask 238 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,880 my sister Janet to follow me into a room with interesting 239 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,520 acoustics, like a closet or a bathroom, and I'd sing to her. 240 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,920 Just a note, a rhythm of a note. It wouldn't be a lyric or 241 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,360 anything. I just hum from the bottom of my 242 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,440 throat. I'd say, Janet, what do you see? 243 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,720 What do you see when you hear this sound? 244 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,240 And this time she said, dying children in Africa. 245 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,880 You're right. That's what I was dictating from 246 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,840 my soul. And she said, you're talking 247 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,480 about Africa, you're talking about dying children. 248 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,080 That's where we are. The world came from. 249 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,720 We'd go into a dark room and I'd sing notes to her. 250 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,480 To my mind, that's what singers should be able to do. 251 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,040 We should be able to perform and be effective, even if it's in a 252 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,680 dark room. We've lost a lot because of TV. 253 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,320 You should be able to move people without all that advanced 254 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,200 technology, without pictures, using only sound. 255 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,760 I've been performing for as long as I can remember. 256 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,400 I know a lot of secrets, a lot of things like that. 257 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,280 I think that We Are the World is a very spiritual song, but 258 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,000 spiritual in a special sense. I was proud to be a part of that 259 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,040 song and to be one of the musicians there that night. 260 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,360 We were united by our desire to make a difference. 261 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,480 It made the world a better place for us, and it made a difference 262 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,680 to the starving people we wanted to help. 263 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,720 We collected some Grammy Awards and began to hear easy listening 264 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,960 versions of We Are the World and Elevators, along with Billie 265 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,160 Jean. Since first writing it, I had 266 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,360 thought that song should be sung by children. 267 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:42,640 When I finally heard children singing it on producer George 268 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,840 Duke's version, I almost cried. It's the best version I've 269 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,000 heard. After We Are the World, I again 270 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,080 decided to retreat from public view. 271 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,520 For 2 1/2 years, I devoted most of my time to recording the 272 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,600 follow up to Thriller, the album that came to be titled Bad. 273 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,640 Why did it take so long to make Bad? 274 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,040 The answer is that Quincy and I decided that this album should 275 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,920 be as close to perfect as humanly possible. 276 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,120 A perfectionist has to take his time. 277 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,320 He shapes and he molds and he sculpts that thing until it's 278 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,320 perfect. He can't let it go before he's 279 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,120 satisfied. He can't. 280 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,240 If it's not right, you throw it away and do it over. 281 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,400 You work that thing till it's just right. 282 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,440 When it says perfect as you can make it, you put it out there. 283 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,360 Really, you've got to get it to where it's just right. 284 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,280 That's the secret. That's the difference between a 285 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,760 #30 record and a #1 record that stays number one for weeks. 286 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,120 It's got to be good. If it is, it stays up there and 287 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,200 the whole world wonders when it's going to come down. 288 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,880 I have a hard time explaining how Quincy Jones and I work 289 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,000 together on making an album. What I do is I write the songs 290 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,120 and do the music and then Quincy brings out the best in me. 291 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,520 That's the only way I can explain it. 292 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,839 Quincy will listen and make changes. 293 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,280 He'll say, Michael, you should put a change in there. 294 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,839 And I'll write a change and he'll guide me on and help me 295 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:18,200 create and help me invent and work on new sounds, new kinds of 296 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,200 music. And we fight during the bad 297 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,040 sessions. We disagreed on some things. 298 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,400 If we struggle at all, it's about new stuff, the latest 299 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,720 technology. I'll say Quincy, you know, music 300 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,080 changes all the time. I want the latest drum sounds 301 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,640 that people are doing. I want to go beyond the latest 302 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,840 thing and then we go ahead and make the best record that we 303 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,280 can. We don't ever try to pander to 304 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,000 the fans. We just try to play on the 305 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,160 quality of the song. People will not buy junk. 306 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,600 They'll only buy what they like. If you take all the trouble to 307 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,720 get in your car, go to the record store and put your money 308 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,600 on the counter, you've got to really like what you're going to 309 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,040 buy. You don't say I'll put a country 310 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,800 song on here for the country market, a rock song for that 311 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,240 market and so on. I feel close to all different 312 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,520 styles of music. I love some rock songs and some 313 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,560 country songs and some pop and all the old rock'n'roll records. 314 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,040 We did go after a rock type of song with Beat It. 315 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,000 We got Eddie Van Kalen to play guitar because we knew he'd do 316 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,840 the best job. Albums should be for all races, 317 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,560 all tastes and music. In the end, many songs kind of 318 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,960 create themselves. You just say this is it, this is 319 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,200 how it's going to be. Of course, not every song is 320 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,840 going to have a great dance tempo. 321 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,200 It's like Rock With You isn't a great dance tempo. 322 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,880 It was meant for the old dance, the rock, but it's not a don't 323 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,800 stop or working day and night rhythm or a start and something 324 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,800 type of thing, something you can play with on the dance floor and 325 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,280 get sweaty working out to. We worked on bad for a long 326 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,720 time, years. In the end it was worth it 327 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,040 because we were satisfied with what we had achieved, but it was 328 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,000 difficult too. There was a lot of tension 329 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,320 because we felt we were competing with ourselves. 330 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,080 It's very hard to create something when you feel like 331 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,880 you're in competition with yourself because no matter how 332 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,400 you look at it, people are always going to compare bad to 333 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,080 Thriller. You can always say, ah, forget 334 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,240 thriller, but no one ever will. I think I have a slight 335 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,360 advantage in all of this because I always do my best work under 336 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:43,680 pressure. OK. 337 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,400 So we are going to leave it there with this section of 338 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,240 Moonwalk, OK. So there's a lot that is talked 339 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,040 about here and there's a lot that's not talked about here. 340 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,480 And we are reaching the point in this book that I would say 341 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,800 represents my biggest frustration with the book as a 342 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,480 whole. So I have plenty I want to say 343 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:08,680 and we will recap as much as possible in the time that we 344 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,080 have. So let's go back to the start of 345 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,400 this section. Michael opens up with talking 346 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,720 about his relationships with his sisters. 347 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,120 Specifically though he talks about Janet and Latoya. 348 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,640 He starts first by talking about discovering that Janet have 349 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,320 gotten married. I believe Janet was around 18 350 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,960 when she got married. 18 or 19. And his family and people being 351 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,280 afraid to break it to him because they were so close. 352 00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,240 And then he talks about his relationship with Latoya and how 353 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,320 she's so different from him, her OCD kind of tendencies and 354 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,640 things. And it's interesting to me 355 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,920 because if you actually look at Michael's appearances and 356 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,760 professional connections throughout the 80s, he's a lot 357 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,160 more tied to Latoya than Janet. I mean, specifically, Latoya 358 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,480 appears in two music videos with Michael. 359 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,400 She is in say, say Say with Michael and Paul McCartney. 360 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,400 And then she is also in The Way You Make Me Feel. 361 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,080 So Latoya actually is like, around a lot. 362 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,520 She shows up in the video footage of the interview Michael 363 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,480 did at Havenhurst in 1983. There's, you know, time at some 364 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,200 point he's presenting her with an award in the mid 80s, you 365 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,680 know, so there's all these different times that he's really 366 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,320 obviously tied to her. So it could easily give the 367 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,880 impression that he was like fairly close to Latoya. 368 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,880 And I do think he was. I mean, Michael lived with 369 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,440 Latoya for a little while when he was filming The Wiz. 370 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,680 They both lived at home the longest when it comes to all of 371 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,880 Michael's siblings and the paths they took. 372 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,800 And so it's interesting because Michael then goes on here to 373 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:51,000 describe how close he was to Janet, how they spent all this 374 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,680 time together and they were inseparable and they would plan 375 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,200 full days together. And that's kind of remarkable 376 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,920 when you consider that there is like an 8 year age difference. 377 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,400 So it's kind of amazing they were as close as they were given 378 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,720 that. But it sounds like they just had 379 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,680 so much in common and were so similar to one another. 380 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,800 And if you actually look at, you know, their careers and the 381 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,360 things they've done, they there are a lot of similarities 382 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:18,520 between Michael and Janet, even as they got older. 383 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,560 And you can tell there's like a deep love between them that that 384 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,280 always sustained even as they weren't as close. 385 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,440 It makes me really sad, though, to think about this whole time 386 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,200 because again, you know, this was written in the 80s. 387 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:36,600 And then by the 90s, Michael is so distant from his family, 388 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,080 including his sisters with Janet. 389 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,000 I think, you know, to a large degree, their careers took them 390 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,400 in different directions. They were both incredibly 391 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,920 successful, incredibly popular, very busy, you know, and the way 392 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,640 any busy adult siblings get, you know, it's, it's hard to stay 393 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,040 connected. But with Latoya, of course, 394 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,920 there was much darker stuff going on with Latoya getting 395 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,040 married and then, you know, throwing her voice and support 396 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,320 behind the accusations against Michael only till later reveal 397 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,560 that she was being manipulated and threatened by her abusive 398 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,120 husband and forced to do those things. 399 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:17,720 Like, it's so complicated. But like, it's sad to me to read 400 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,080 about their relationship back then and to know the way it kind 401 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,360 of evolved. I mean, they did, of course, 402 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,920 reach a point. Michael with his whole family 403 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,360 reached a point, including his father, where he had a more 404 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:34,400 healed relationship with them, especially by the time the 2000s 405 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,960 came. But the 90s were rough for the 406 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,760 Jackson family and their connection. 407 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,680 And it makes me really sad to remember and be reminded of how 408 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,360 close they were, you know, in different ways during the 80s 409 00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:49,480 and how different that became later. 410 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,040 Something I wanted to mention specifically with Janet and 411 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,400 getting married so young is I recall that Michael earlier in 412 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,760 this book talked about how he felt really sad when his brother 413 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,720 started to get married and a real sense of like, heartbreak 414 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,760 as his siblings and his family broke apart. 415 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,800 And he knew it was natural and he knew it made sense, but it 416 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,720 was really, really hard. And then the same thing, of 417 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,600 course, happens with Janet. And I imagine to some degree it 418 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,960 was really hard with Janet because she is so much younger 419 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,680 than him and because he probably thought, you know, I have much 420 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,560 more time with her before she's likely going to get married. 421 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,000 And then she got married so young. 422 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,160 But I thought about this actually, and I think in the 423 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,040 Jackson's American Dream miniseries, they actually 424 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,520 presented this way that some of Michael's siblings started 425 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,920 getting married very young as a means of escaping their 426 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,960 household and getting away from their father. 427 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,560 So it's kind of, it's kind of interesting in a way that 428 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,280 Michael was one of the siblings that has always been the most 429 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,440 outspoken about Joe Jackson and how he treated them. 430 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,280 And he's the only one who really equated it to abuse. 431 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,200 And the others really didn't publicly do that. 432 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,440 But Michael was also the one that in a lot of cases lived at 433 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,880 home the longest. I mean, he and Latoya lived at 434 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,680 home the longest. And into his 20s, Michael was 435 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,120 living at Havenhurst. And at least in the US, that's 436 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,600 not super common. And especially, you know, at 437 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,160 Michael's income level and, you know, everything in his career, 438 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,280 people would have expected him to move out at an earlier age. 439 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,080 And so in a lot of ways, Michael was the most affected long term. 440 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,440 I mean, he didn't have an escape at 18 years old to get away from 441 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,920 the influence of Joseph Jackson. So I just think that that's kind 442 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,680 of an interesting note. Of course, it was a different 443 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,680 time and people did get married much younger in the 70s and 80s 444 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,400 than they do now. But at the same time, it seems 445 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,080 to me that a lot of them did really try to to leave the 446 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,960 family home pretty young. And that does say a lot about 447 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,200 the family home to some degree. You know, I really thought 448 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,280 though, just to just to comment on this, this section where he's 449 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,000 talking about how he would plan like the days off with Janet and 450 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,280 they would make a list of get up, feed the animals, have 451 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,200 breakfast, watch cartoons, go to the movies, go to a restaurant, 452 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,480 go to another movie. You know, it's so cute. 453 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,560 It made me also a little sad though, because he said, oh, and 454 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,640 we would get a day off. This is what we would do. 455 00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,800 Whereas for a lot of kids, at least in the US, for a lot of 456 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,360 kids, summer vacation is exactly what he just described. 457 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:29,960 I mean, granted, you made me don't go out to eat and go to 458 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,280 the movies and all that stuff every day. 459 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,600 But you have days like that where you wake up and you're 460 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,160 just kind of, what do I, what do I want to play today? 461 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,400 What play time do I want today? What friends do I want to hang 462 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,800 out with? What craft do I want to do? 463 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,680 I'll play with my animals. Like these are things that are 464 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,080 really normal. And for him and for Janet, 465 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,280 because she also started working at a very young age, it was 466 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,960 like, oh, this is a rare day off. 467 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,280 So we're going to make the most of it. 468 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,480 And it's so sweet to think about and also so sad to think about, 469 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,280 you know, and I often feel sad for Janet and all of Michael's 470 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,160 family, honestly, that he's gone. 471 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,320 And now Tito was gone as bald. But Tito lived much longer than 472 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,520 Michael. So with with Michael, I mean, 473 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,760 dying only 50 years old, like as Janet was, you know, in her 474 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,320 early 40s when he died and not being able to talk to her 475 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,240 brother and reminisce and and connect, especially when she had 476 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,760 a child. You know, it's, it's just very 477 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,560 sad. And I don't need to linger on 478 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,120 that. I'm just saying like the it's 479 00:27:29,120 --> 00:27:31,520 sweet to read these recollections, but it's sad 480 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,160 again to know, you know, the way that the family relationships 481 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,560 progressed. And then of course, Michael 482 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,560 dying so young, there's so much disruption to that family unit 483 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,640 after the 80s. But I do want to just briefly 484 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,400 touch upon this other part here where Michael is talking about 485 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,240 his own future and about marriage. 486 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,520 And he says, I do think that marriage can be a wonderful 487 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,160 thing if it's right for the two people involved. 488 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,440 I believe in love very much. So how can you not believe it 489 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:08,280 after you've experienced it? So again, again, everybody likes 490 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,120 to say Michael didn't have relationships. 491 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:15,000 Michael didn't date Michael. Didn't have women in his life. 492 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,720 How many times has he affirmed in this book? 493 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,880 He has had relationships, he has been in love, there's been 494 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,000 multiple women he's cared for, some of which he doesn't name. 495 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,280 And it's like the world continues to ignore it. 496 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,800 And it irritates me so much. I I was watching this interview 497 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:37,160 a couple of days ago with J Randy Terra Bareilly, who wrote 498 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,680 The Magic and the Madness, which is like one of the biggest 499 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,320 biographies about Michael Jackson. 500 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,400 Of course, it's an unauthorized biography, but he did meet 501 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,400 Michael and interview him and stuff different times. 502 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,040 So it's not like they had never interacted before, but still, 503 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,920 you know, I haven't read all of it yet, in part because I know 504 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,680 it's, it's widely disputed. There are parts of it that are 505 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,280 considered great insights into Michael's life and there's parts 506 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,160 that are completely like feel completely out of left field. 507 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,120 So I haven't read all of it. And whenever I do finish it, I 508 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,440 know I will not, you know, I'll take it with a grain of salt, 509 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,080 but I was watching this interview with him the other day 510 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,280 where someone was interviewing him about the book. 511 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,160 This was like a an interview from the early 90s when the book 512 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,360 first came out. And he was saying how, oh, 513 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,680 everybody else got to move on and have relationships. 514 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,520 And, you know, even Latoya got married now. 515 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,160 But Michael's alone. And Michael doesn't have a woman 516 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840 or have anyone and he never has. And there's this, like, 517 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,840 narrative about that. And I just don't, like, it just 518 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,000 frustrates me, you know, because Michael is straight up saying 519 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,200 here, like, yeah, maybe he was single at that point in his 520 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,120 life, just like a lot of people are single for periods of their 521 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,240 life. But the way I feel like it's 522 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,880 always presented with Michael is like, oh, he never did, despite 523 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,320 the fact that he tells us often that he did. 524 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,640 Like, it's just weird to me why. Again, I know that I'm not 525 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,840 trying to be a broken record here and just repeat the same 526 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:04,400 thing every episode, but I will never understand why people 527 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,280 trust other people's words about Michael more than Michael's 528 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,840 words about his own life. It doesn't make sense to me. 529 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,480 All of it, Michael's words and others as well, should be this 530 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,080 like constellation of understanding for us, where 531 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,640 there's certain parts that are brighter, that make more sense 532 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,680 that we can, you know, hang on to more. 533 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,720 And there's others that kind of fade into the background, but 534 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,640 they all create this tapestry of, of light, you know, in this 535 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,360 case, all creating this understanding of who Michael is. 536 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,000 But for some reason, you know, Michael talking about himself 537 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,280 doesn't get as much respect as other people talking about him. 538 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,800 And it's just very, very odd to me. 539 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,240 But nevertheless, he says all of this, that he hopes to have a 540 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,800 relationship, He hopes to get married someday. 541 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,320 He hopes to have 13 children. Michael, that's actually better. 542 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,760 I've I've seen this video or I've heard this interview, 543 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:03,520 actually, I think when he was like 20 or 21 when he says he 544 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,240 wants to have 18 children. So like. 545 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,640 He got a. Little bit more reasonable as he 546 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,320 got older. But you know. 547 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,480 That's the thing, he came from a family of technically 10 548 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,840 children. One of his siblings died when he 549 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,080 was a baby, but still a family of 10. 550 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,360 I mean, that is normal to him. You have to keep them. 551 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,680 That is normal to him. So you know, a big family like 552 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,520 that sounds crazy, but I'm sure he would have had no problem 553 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,320 finding a woman to do that if that is what in fact he wanted 554 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,480 at that stage in his life. But he goes on to say, you know, 555 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,520 how much he wanted a family and how he hoped to have a family. 556 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,320 And something I want to just take a moment to talk about that 557 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:51,320 I think is very under recognized when people try to understand 558 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,480 Michael and why he often did surround himself with children. 559 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,520 There's the obvious part of like, OK, of course he 560 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,160 befriended families. He was friends with parents, 561 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,840 then developed relationships with the children and became 562 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,160 like a almost like an uncle figure to the children of like 563 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,920 friends that he would have. He also developed actual 564 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,560 friendships with child stars, specifically that he would like 565 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,880 hang out with them as kids and he would connect with them. 566 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,360 And that can feel very strange to people and hard to 567 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,120 understand. And I think as fans, we tend to 568 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,640 explain it as Michael really was inspired by children. 569 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,920 He really liked spending time with children because of, you 570 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,320 know, their purity and their energy. 571 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,000 And as we've read and Dancing the Dream as well as, you know, 572 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,760 in places in this book, Michael's passion for children 573 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,600 is also very spiritual, where he really admires children and sees 574 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,280 children as like the closest we can get to God, which is 575 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,720 something we actually talk about quite a bit last season. 576 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,560 But there's another layer here that I don't think people talk 577 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,480 about enough. And maybe I've mentioned it 578 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,360 before, but, you know, bear with me. 579 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,360 Then Michael wanted to have children. 580 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,680 Michael wanted to be a father. He really, really wanted that in 581 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,960 his life. He longed for that, but he had 582 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,680 conflict because he also had these incredible goals for his 583 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,120 career and for his future. He had this creative drive in 584 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,800 him that he could not exist with without pursuing. 585 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,480 And yet that was incongruent with a relationship. 586 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,840 And a relationship is very often the precursor to having a 587 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,600 family. And so it's interesting because 588 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,480 I feel that people underestimate how painful it can be to be 589 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,200 longing for a family, to be longing to have children, to be 590 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,000 longing for building your family of your own as an adult, and how 591 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,360 painful that is to not be able to for whatever reason. 592 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,000 And in Michael's case, it's like the barrier was the 593 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,800 relationship. And the more famous he became, 594 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,160 the harder it became to have that relationship. 595 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,120 And so ultimately we see after his relationship to Lisa Marie 596 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:08,080 Presley, he connects with Debbie Rowe, who had been his friend, 597 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,280 who he knew and and ultimately, you know, their relationship was 598 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,000 one in which she gave birth to his children. 599 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:21,440 But it was did not appear to be a terribly romantic relationship 600 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,960 with a romantic connection. And it's because to some degree 601 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,480 it he wasn't able to make the relationship part work first. 602 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,159 So we can assume on some level, Michael was waiting from the 603 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:39,000 time he was in his early 20s until he was what, like 30-8, 604 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,360 maybe 39 when Prince was born. He was waiting all of that time 605 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,440 to have the family he had always wanted. 606 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,679 So surrounding himself with children, spending time 607 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,440 ingratiating himself and families and becoming a part of 608 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,199 the family for multiple people, there's reasons for that too 609 00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,840 that just that go beyond, you know, just his general 610 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,520 admiration of children. This was one of those life 611 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,520 experiences that he couldn't access because of who he was, 612 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,280 both in terms of fame, but because of also who he actually 613 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,120 was as a person. So deeply dedicated to his art 614 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:17,600 and who did not see a way around that when it came to finding a 615 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,720 functioning relationship to then have children with him. 616 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:26,520 So it's not surprising that after he got married to Lisa 617 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,360 Marie Presley and that their relationship did not last, that 618 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,120 he immediately found another way to have children because that 619 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,160 was the one barrier. And when it didn't work, it 620 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,400 didn't work. And so he moved on because he 621 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,960 knew he still wanted the family. So I, I've come to understand it 622 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,600 a lot more over recent years. And again, it's not really up to 623 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,160 us to understand, you know, Michael's life is Michael's 624 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,160 life. And there's nothing he has to 625 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:53,960 apologize for. There's nothing we have to 626 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,480 question. I mean, it's not our right, 627 00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,480 really, but I guess I just think of this because he's here 628 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,480 talking about how much he wants children, his dream to have this 629 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,280 massive family with the right woman, and that didn't entirely 630 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,480 manifest for him. I'm grateful he did get to have 631 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,440 children and experience being a father, but it didn't really 632 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,120 work out the way he wanted it to. 633 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,760 And there's a lot of pain in that. 634 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,320 And I guess I want to say that is, there's a lot of unspoken 635 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:24,080 and unacknowledged pain in just that human experience that a lot 636 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,880 of people wouldn't necessarily think about when it comes to 637 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,240 Michael Jackson. So anyway, let's move on. 638 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,480 Before I do, though, let me just say there's this photo, Oh my 639 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,360 God, on page, I guess 255 of Michael in China. 640 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,880 And he's smiling at a baby and this guy that's holding a baby, 641 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,200 and he looks incredible. And I just think, Michael, you 642 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,160 could have started working on having those 13 children at any 643 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,480 moment of your life. It's crazy. 644 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,680 He looks beautiful. It's a gorgeous picture of him. 645 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:56,840 Anyway, moving on, he starts to get a little bit more into his 646 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,360 frustrations about the media again, and this is where this 647 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:05,640 chapter starts to Like, it becomes obvious to me throughout 648 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,440 this chapter that OK, we've reached the end of the book and 649 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,280 there's a few more things Michael wants to make sure we 650 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,480 say. None of this fits together. 651 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,920 We're 2 pages in to this review right now and we have 652 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,160 conversation about Janet. We have stuff stuff about 653 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,920 Latoya. We have stuff about wanting to 654 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,520 start a family. We have stuff about journalists 655 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,000 accusing him of wanting to be white. 656 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,560 We have stuff about his philosophy about being a great 657 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,040 artist and doing the very best you can. 658 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:39,600 I mean, it's the we get into him donating money from the Victory 659 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,800 tour. Like all of that is back-to-back 660 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,000 paragraphs without any breaks between the paragraphs, without 661 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,840 any sections. I mean, it's just is 662 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,040 unorganized, frankly. And it bothers me, to be honest, 663 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,320 because I think that I, I wonder if at a certain point Michael 664 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,000 stopped wanting to participate in these interviews with the 665 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,480 person writing the book, if he stopped wanting to give back a 666 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,000 lot. So they just had all these like 667 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,920 half thoughts, half narratives and they had to piece them 668 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,560 together. I don't know. 669 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,200 It's not well organized though. And it bothers me so much 670 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,480 because like, I don't know why in this one paragraph, he's 671 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,520 talking about how his work takes up his emotional life. 672 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,800 The second paragraph is about being accused of wanting to be 673 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,040 white by journalists and truth going out of style. 674 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,800 And the third paragraph directly under it is about working hard. 675 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,200 Like, it's just, it's not that I can't see a possibility for 676 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,400 connection there. It's just as a writer and as a 677 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,600 former writing professor, it just bothers me there. 678 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,880 There should be transitions. There should be transitions 679 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,800 anyway, this is a this is a complaint I have for the rest of 680 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,360 the book. As the book progresses and we 681 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:53,920 reached the end, every single part is rushed where we got this 682 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,920 vibrant kind of portrayal of his childhood and his early years 683 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,560 performing and, you know, even to some degree, like, you know, 684 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,040 filming The Wiz, we get a ton about that. 685 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:10,720 We get, you know, part of a chapter about the bad album. 686 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,520 We get part of the same chapter about the victory to our part of 687 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,800 the same chapter about the Pepsi accident. 688 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,600 You know, like there's just so much propelling information 689 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,920 without a lot of depth, frankly. And it and it just bothers me. 690 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,680 But I don't want to bypass the points he did make here. 691 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,480 And the first one being his frustration with being accused 692 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,440 of wanting to be white. So I had mentioned this pretty 693 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,720 recently that when Michael talks about his plastic surgery or, 694 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,720 you know, trying to clarify what surgeries he actually had and 695 00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:44,200 didn't have, that he doesn't specify anything about his skin 696 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,040 changing. And the same happens here. 697 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,640 He brings up that people are accusing him of wanting to look 698 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,120 white and all he says is more white. 699 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,840 What kind of statement is that? I didn't invent plastic surgery. 700 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,520 And I don't quite understand, to be honest, this framing from 701 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:10,280 Michael, he he's saying, you know, this is a crazy statement. 702 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,080 But he doesn't actually deny it. He doesn't offer any other 703 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,400 explanation for it. And then he sounds defensive 704 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,920 when he says, I didn't invent plastic surgery. 705 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:21,320 It's been around for a long time now. 706 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,880 I want to be very clear about something. 707 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:27,120 I know Michael did not want to look white or be white. 708 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,160 I know that Michael knows that. And Michael has said that at 709 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:34,360 other points, Michael has said how proud he is of being a black 710 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,160 man and like that he loves being black. 711 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,280 I mean, Michael has never shield away from that. 712 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,040 But rather than bringing this accusation up and then defending 713 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,600 himself in terms of that's not true and it's absurd, and here's 714 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,640 all the reasons and ways in which that's not true. 715 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,920 He says I didn't invent plastic surgery. 716 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,440 A lot of other people do it too and they're fine people. 717 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,800 And again, he's right. I'm not in any way questioning 718 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,760 that He is correct here 'cause he is correct here. 719 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,120 I mean, he has every right to get plastic surgery if he wants. 720 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,400 He should not be targeted when other people are not. 721 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,560 It's not fair. You know, there's a million 722 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,560 things to say about it, and I agree with him. 723 00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,840 But unfortunately, he brings up the topic of his skin changing 724 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,800 without actually addressing his skin changing. 725 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,920 And I can just imagine that a lot of people would trust him 726 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,880 less for that because it's like, OK, you're in this memoir. 727 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,480 You're sharing things about yourself and your life. 728 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,040 Why not share this? Why not tell people what's going 729 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,840 on? It's such a difficult position, 730 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,840 you know, because again, as I've said before, he didn't owe the 731 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,920 world anything. He doesn't owe the world an 732 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,920 explanation of his medical history. 733 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,560 He doesn't, you know, owe anybody an explanation of 734 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,480 anything. But he's here writing a memoir 735 00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:55,160 and people have those questions and he's only kind of half 736 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,200 addressing them. And I just, I guess what I'm 737 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,880 trying to say with mentioning all this is I'm not sure that it 738 00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:03,600 helped him here. And I would love to know and 739 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,880 maybe I will look into this for the final episode here. 740 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,160 I would love to know some of the reception from the public to 741 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,160 this book. I would imagine there'd be a lot 742 00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,960 of people feeling more compassionate toward him. 743 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,480 And, you know, I know he was a best seller, but I also can 744 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:20,800 imagine there were people who sort of doubled down on being 745 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,400 like, you know, he still won't admit it. 746 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,520 He still won't deny it. He won't explain it, you know, 747 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,800 So if this is his one chance and he doesn't, then what are we 748 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,120 supposed to think? And it's unfortunate because I 749 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,640 think it could have been a real moment of clarity for him in a 750 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,160 lot of ways that, you know, again, I, I don't know because I 751 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,760 wasn't there and I'm not my goal. 752 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,200 So I don't know what he was up against. 753 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,000 I don't know what he was facing in the media. 754 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,640 I mean, none of us even know. Even if you were alive and 755 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,640 observing, you don't know how it was affecting him because you 756 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,720 weren't him. So I mean, truly, there's no way 757 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:55,560 of knowing what he should have been differently, what he could 758 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,720 have done differently. And I'm not in judgement of him 759 00:42:58,720 --> 00:43:04,080 for it, but I do feel it's understandable that people were 760 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,200 curious and he doesn't really give a clear answer. 761 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,560 So but then, you know, I love what he says next about how you 762 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,600 have to train and strive and be the very best at what you do 763 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,960 and, you know, become the world expert on the thing that you are 764 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,120 passionate about. And I can't tell you how many 765 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,640 times I've heard his voice in my head saying these things and 766 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,720 been like, oh, another day has gone by that I have not written, 767 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,800 you know what I mean? Like his passionate pursuit of 768 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,720 his career and his passions and stuff. 769 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,480 It's just like, God, it shames me, you know, it breaks my 770 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,880 heart. I wish I, I would love to, to 771 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,280 use his words as my kind of ultimate inspiration, but I've, 772 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,120 I fear, I fear friends, I might be too old now. 773 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,320 I'm only 37, but I feel like I'm set in my ways. 774 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,400 You know, a person can always grow and change and better 775 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,360 themselves. But like, can I become a Michael 776 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,280 Jackson type of hard worker at this age? 777 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,680 I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 778 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,320 So I'll, I'll let you know what happens. 779 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,800 But I love this because if any kids kid fans were reading this, 780 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,120 I would imagine this would have been very influential. 781 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,440 If I had read this as a as a fan, if I were a kid or a 782 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,400 teenager, this would have been become my entire personality. 783 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:23,200 So I'm just telling you that much. 784 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,480 It's of course, you know, very interesting to me when he talks 785 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,320 about touring and the things that he learned. 786 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,360 And specifically he says learning and beginning to 787 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,920 understand that he's the one who makes the decisions and people 788 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,680 work for him and not the other way around. 789 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,280 And he credits or blames rather Motown for making that so 790 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,680 difficult. And he actually says he's he was 791 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:47,000 mentally scarred by it. And I find that really a 792 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:51,680 fascinating thing to be thinking about when it comes to the way 793 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,080 we understand Michael at this time in his life especially. 794 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,920 But even as we move on from this time, I had therapy today. 795 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,200 And in my therapy session, I was talking, you know, about how the 796 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,400 scripts that you learn as a child, the rules of the world 797 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,320 that you learn from the world at large, but also like your 798 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,280 parents and like the influences in your life about the way 799 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,920 things are. They feel so true, so undeniable 800 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,360 that it's almost like saying, you know, gravity doesn't exist 801 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,200 if you try to question them. And it is scarring and it's 802 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,840 hard, I think. And that's part of what 803 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,320 adulthood is, is sort of unlearning the things that you 804 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,000 were taught, maybe against better judgement, the things you 805 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,400 were taught to believe about yourself or about the way the 806 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,400 world works or whatever is it's determining like, no, like you, 807 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,840 you can make the rules for your own life. 808 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,440 You can make decisions for yourself. 809 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,280 Your life doesn't have to reflect the life that you were 810 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:52,840 taught. It should reflect. 811 00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,000 And I think about that with Michael here and about how he's 812 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,800 saying this mentally scarred him, having this existence in 813 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,080 which everyone else had control. OK, You do this thing at this 814 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,240 time. You wear this. 815 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:06,840 You, you dress this way, you act this way. 816 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,640 You look this way. You show up at this place, you 817 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,000 sing this song this way. It all. 818 00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,600 All I can imagine is that it taught him at a very young age 819 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,560 that his existence revolved around pleasing other people. 820 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,720 And is that a stretch when we think about who we knew Michael 821 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,920 to be when we knew Michael as an artist, but also like his 822 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,080 personal life and. The the the. 823 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,280 The people that kind of invaded his personal life and took from 824 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,440 him and hurt him in a lot of ways were people he struggled to 825 00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,120 say no to and struggled to have boundaries with. 826 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,640 And part of the struggle with boundaries is a struggle with 827 00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,840 believing you're allowed to have boundaries and allowed to say no 828 00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,600 to things, allowed to have limits because you're taught 829 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,920 when you're young that you're not. 830 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,240 And that's sort of what I think he's talking about here. 831 00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:55,600 So it did scar him. I mean, he's talking about it in 832 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,160 terms of his career. And I'm so glad that for his 833 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,560 sake, he took back that power. And I, and it's evident when you 834 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,960 think about like, OK, how much promotion did he actually do in 835 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,560 his adult life compared to what he did when he was young? 836 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,240 So he really took that back and he took the reins and he took 837 00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:14,720 them back. Hard, you know, but I wonder 838 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,720 about his personal life and how much harder that may have been. 839 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,600 So I don't know. I guess mentally scarred is just 840 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,920 an interesting framing. OK, so a few more things I want 841 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,400 to touch upon before we wrap up. This chapter is difficult 842 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,120 because it there's so many things referenced in it. 843 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,560 And again, there's just not that much time devoted to any one 844 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,040 particular thing. So it's like I I want to fill in 845 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,080 all the gaps and I can't. But let's talk about Captain EO. 846 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,160 So Michael says he had this amazing opportunity to work with 847 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,640 Disney and I just, I would love that. 848 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,440 He says that he wanted to do something with them that Mister 849 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,160 Disney himself would have approved. 850 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:59,400 Because I love this idea of if someone has the opportunity to 851 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,760 do something that is with someone else's name on it, 852 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,760 whether that is a person or a brand or whatever, like Walt 853 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,920 Disney's obviously both like actually making sure what you're 854 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,520 doing really does match the energy and vision of that 855 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,040 particular person or brand or, or whatever, you know? 856 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,840 And I think Captain EO is a great example. 857 00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:24,600 So I had never heard of Captain EO before becoming a fan of 858 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,000 Michael Jackson. And I absolutely love, I have 859 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,640 seen it so many times. And it's funny because it's 860 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,280 obviously a film that is made for kids, you know, like it's 861 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,360 clearly it's made for for children. 862 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,640 But as you know, an adult watching it, I just love it. 863 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,200 I think it's so great. I love also what he says about 864 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:50,520 it and the way he very quickly and easily kind of summarizes 865 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,800 it. He says the story is about a 866 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,120 young guy who goes on a mission to this miserable planet run by 867 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,600 an evil queen. He's entrusted with the 868 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,000 responsibility of bringing the inhabitants light and beauty. 869 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,680 It's a celebration of good over evil. 870 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,560 Does that not describe Michael? I mean, minus the Evil Queen 871 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,440 part. I don't know if that 872 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,720 specifically is fair to say, but, and I don't want to say the 873 00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:19,000 whole planet is miserable. The whole planet isn't 874 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,800 miserable, but there's a lot of problems here. 875 00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,960 You know what I mean? I don't know about you, but I 876 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:28,200 often think how much better would things be if Michael 877 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,440 Jackson were here right now? You know, like, it just feels 878 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:36,960 like we're missing this huge, bright, unifying force in the 879 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,040 world at the moment especially. And there's no one really 880 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,320 capable of that, you know? And so of course, it makes me 881 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,600 think about Michael. It makes me think about Captain 882 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,880 EO. In all seriousness, though, I 883 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,760 really do like Captain EO a lot. And if you haven't, you should 884 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,640 totally watch The Making of Captain EO. 885 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,120 It's really cute. Whoopi Goldberg narrates it. 886 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,520 She kind of hosts the whole thing. 887 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,640 It's very, very cute though, and a lot of fun. 888 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:08,520 But I remember reading actually a little bit about Angelica 889 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:13,000 Houston, who plays the Evil Queen, you know, and how she 890 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,120 felt working with Michael and seeing Michael perform. 891 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,280 I hate, I hate this because it's already a very long episode. 892 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,040 But like, I want to find the quote and share it with you 893 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:26,640 because I loved, I loved hearing her talk about this. 894 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:29,600 So I can't resist. I've got to share it with you. 895 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:32,720 So there are a few different quotes and and parts of this 896 00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:36,360 that I want to mention. So the first part she talks 897 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,120 about how she was a little bit psychic. 898 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,400 She said maybe a couple of months before, now this is 899 00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,920 before she was cast. Maybe a couple of months before 900 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,520 I had a dream about being in the desert with Michael Jackson 901 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,280 madly in love. And an elephant Stampede came up 902 00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,520 behind us and they put their trunks around us as we sort of 903 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,240 were floating in mid air. This very beautiful dream. 904 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,920 So when Captain EO came about, I suddenly realized that it was 905 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,960 prescient. And I just have to say I 906 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,360 absolutely love that Angelica Houston was out here having 907 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,560 romantic dreams about being in love with Michael Jackson just 908 00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:16,840 like the rest of us. No, it's just like very cute and 909 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,920 very endearing to me. And of course, yeah, very 910 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:22,440 psychic, given that she worked with him. 911 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:26,560 But also that there was like an elephant like character in the 912 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:28,800 movie. And there is a scene of them 913 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,560 floating in the air together. And it's kind of a Star Warsy 914 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,440 landscape, which is very desert like. 915 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,520 So it's it's just very funny, the whole thing. 916 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,080 I mean, she says several other things about him that I just 917 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,760 wanted to share because I think they're really special, she 918 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,160 says. I met Michael on the first day 919 00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:50,080 of rehearsal, and I was stunned, even though obviously I knew his 920 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,160 image very well. I was stunned at how incredibly 921 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,600 sweet and how modest and how innocent he was, and fragile, 922 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,960 too. In person, you felt he was 923 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,760 almost breakable, but then this thing happened. 924 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,080 When he would start to work, your heart would beat faster and 925 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,200 the hair in your arms in the back of your neck would stick up 926 00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,200 as he literally took your breath away. 927 00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,120 I think he was the most electrifying performer I've ever 928 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,480 seen. I think it was very hard for 929 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:20,640 Michael to express anger. He was, I have to say, one of 930 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,360 the most polite people I've ever met in my life. 931 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,000 I never heard Michael say a swear word, even when he was 932 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,520 upset. He had the most beautiful 933 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:33,800 manners, and I think music was really the only way in which his 934 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,240 passion could come through unguarded. 935 00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:40,040 It was immense. He was on fire as a performer. 936 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,200 I've never seen a talent like it. 937 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,880 I think actually there was a lot of the otherworldly in Michael. 938 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,240 He had this talent that I've never encountered before, and 939 00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,800 I've seen a lot of extraordinary people perform. 940 00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,880 He was, I think, very misunderstood. 941 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,680 I never believed any of the allegations or insinuations 942 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,240 against him. We had lunch together about a 943 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:06,000 month ago and he talked about his ordeal. 944 00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,960 He felt like he really had been put through the wringer. 945 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:13,120 He said they wanted blood. I felt so bad for him and I felt 946 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,640 that he was really broken hearted from what had been done. 947 00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,320 He was a meteor. His flame burned incredibly 948 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,080 bright and not for long, but mightily. 949 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,480 I didn't expect to get emotional while reading that, but I forgot 950 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,840 how that quote ended until I was midway through. 951 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,440 Yeah. So that came out in an article 952 00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,400 from Time, I believe, shortly after Michael passed away, like 953 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,200 very shortly, because she said they had had lunch, you know, 954 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,680 recently. And yeah, it's. 955 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,000 There's been different times in different articles where I've 956 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,360 seen quotes from her about working with him and her 957 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:51,560 impressions of him. But the whole thing is really 958 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,280 touching to me. And of course, it's always 959 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,560 wonderful to read that somebody was coming out in defense of 960 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:02,680 Michael later in his life. But speaking specifically of the 961 00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:06,640 part about Captain EO, it's just like very fun to me to read 962 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:12,240 about how even, you know, other celebrities who were big 963 00:54:12,240 --> 00:54:16,600 celebrities and very successful, we're still so in awe of him. 964 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,200 I think that really says a lot because people who work in the 965 00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,760 film industry, who work in the music industry, you know, these 966 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:29,320 are people who are often exposed to levels of talent that we can 967 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,840 really only see if we go to like a concert or something. 968 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:37,160 You know, the average person has very little access to witnessing 969 00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,480 just extraordinary talent in person. 970 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,480 So when you have people who have been witnessed to great amounts 971 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,480 of it be in complete awe of someone, I think that speaks 972 00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,600 really highly to that person. Anyway, every time I think about 973 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:54,320 Captain EO, I think about Angelica Houston having dreams 974 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,520 about Michael Jackson, but then also the things that she says 975 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,000 because exactly how she describes him and that duality 976 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,880 of him seeming so kind of fragile and so polite and young 977 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,840 and innocent and all that. And then being this like 978 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,840 Firestorm is, is so real. And it's how so many of us fancy 979 00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:15,400 him too. And it's part of the excitement 980 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,400 and complication of him. Michael also spends a little bit 981 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:21,520 of time in this section, not much, mind you, but a little bit 982 00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:23,840 of time talking about we are the world. 983 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,800 And one of the things I love most about this section is how 984 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:32,880 he talks about the way he would come up with these melodies and 985 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,840 the musical score of the song and he would share them with 986 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,720 Janet. And he had this exchange he 987 00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:44,480 shares where he he hummed it to Janet and she told him what she 988 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:49,640 was seeing when she heard the music was children dying in 989 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,160 Africa. Now it's a it's a weird story. 990 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,080 I'll admit it's a weird story because I I don't really know 991 00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,880 the order of it. And, you know, did she know he 992 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,280 was working on it and was confirming to him like, Oh yeah, 993 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,720 this sounds like a really fits the situation or, or did this 994 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:07,240 really come into his head? He shared it with her and she 995 00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:10,880 just saw that vision. Now I think it's possible. 996 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:15,040 Why not, You know, why not? That song was obviously 997 00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:20,560 incredibly successful at what it did, and I think there's 998 00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,160 something really genius about it. 999 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,520 And this is something I really love and admire about Michael is 1000 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,200 that I've heard him talk about songs like We Are the World and 1001 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,760 Heal the World. Songs that he intentionally made 1002 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,760 fairly simple, you know, and especially in terms of lyrics 1003 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,880 and, you know, things that people can really hear and hum 1004 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:43,480 and sing along to. Because his goal was unification 1005 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,760 and making it accessible to people of all languages of all 1006 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:53,360 ages on all parts of the world, making something feel accessible 1007 00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:56,880 and easy to sing. And a lyric like We are the 1008 00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:01,240 world, we are the children. I mean, that's not easy to 1009 00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:04,200 forget, is it? And it's, it's kind of a simple 1010 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,440 thought, but it's also a profound reminder. 1011 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,360 You know, it's interesting because when I was growing up 1012 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,240 and I was, you know, the 2000s or whatever, I knew this song 1013 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,480 because I'd always, I'd always known this song. 1014 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,520 It was always just like a round, you know, I think that I had 1015 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,520 heard people kind of make fun of it a little bit. 1016 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,360 And I think that I've even read stuff from back in the day when 1017 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:28,840 it was first released where people were kind of mocking how, 1018 00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,560 like, saccharine it is. At least that's the way people 1019 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,960 described it, just like this overly kind of sweet, idealistic 1020 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,200 song. But whenever I talk to people 1021 00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:41,640 who actually were around during that time, that's nobody's 1022 00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,360 memory of it. Like everyone talks about how it 1023 00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,840 was really powerful and meaningful to see the world 1024 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,240 uniting in that way. And I can't really imagine that 1025 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:54,000 happening today. And I often wonder, like, why do 1026 00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:56,440 the artists of today not really even attempt it? 1027 00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:59,080 It seems like they don't. And if they do, they're they're 1028 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:01,240 not successful enough for me to have heard about it. 1029 00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,000 I feel like people don't really try this sort of thing anymore. 1030 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,440 And while I know that it wasn't Michael's initial idea to do it 1031 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:13,800 and he was recruited by Quincy to do it, I also, you know, he 1032 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:15,720 did do it. I mean, without Michael's 1033 00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,200 contribution, that song would not exist. 1034 00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,360 It may be some other version of a song would exist, but it would 1035 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,440 certainly not be that one. And I do believe Michael's 1036 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:28,600 incredible star power was a huge part of its success. 1037 00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,920 I mean, him having prominent featured parts in the song as 1038 00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:37,960 well as being, you know, the one of the writers behind it, that 1039 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,040 is huge. And he lended, in a sense, his 1040 00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,040 star power to that. And that's a huge part of its 1041 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,120 success, along with all of the incredible and remarkable, you 1042 00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,000 know, talent that was in the entire song. 1043 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,720 I'm sure if you again, if you listen to my podcast, certainly 1044 00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:56,600 you've heard of the documentary The Greatest Night in Pop that 1045 00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,880 came out I think a year ago or two years ago at this point, I'm 1046 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,800 not sure on Netflix, but it's absolutely excellent. 1047 00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,640 It was created by Lionel Richie and it's really good. 1048 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:07,600 I've seen it multiple times actually. 1049 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,240 And not only is there some, you know, like audio of Michael and 1050 00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,520 Lionel in it, it's just great. There's also little clips of 1051 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,720 Michael in it that prior to this coming out were not seen before 1052 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:19,720 so. It's really, really excellent 1053 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:21,760 and oh God, I want to watch it again now, to be honest. 1054 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,480 It's so good. But yeah, I wish that Michael 1055 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,560 would have written a little bit more about We Are the World here 1056 00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,440 and what it meant to him. But, you know, like I said, 1057 00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,320 we're at the end of the book, and he's just, he's kind of just 1058 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,840 cramming it all in there. So then we skip ahead to Michael 1059 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,800 starting to talk about bad and the recording of bad. 1060 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,120 And I think it's so funny. He says after We Are the World, 1061 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:47,040 I decide to retreat from public view. 1062 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,400 For 2 1/2 years I devoted most of my time to recording the 1063 00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,200 follow up to Thriller, the album that came to be titled Bad. 1064 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,080 I think it's really funny that he doesn't share a single thing 1065 00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:58,560 about what he did in those 2 1/2 years. 1066 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:02,560 Otherwise, you know, like all he did was work on Bad. 1067 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,160 Like we don't hear anything else about his life at that point. 1068 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,560 And that's how, you know, I think that at this point, he 1069 01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:13,320 really is just trying to hit the major points that people will 1070 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:16,800 expect some commentary on by the time the book is out. 1071 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,840 I remember the first time I read this, and as we began reading 1072 01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:24,040 the part about bad, I was really disappointed because I think I 1073 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,520 mentioned this early in this season. 1074 01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:29,320 But I was maybe a couple of weeks, maybe a month into my 1075 01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,240 fandom when I first read this book. 1076 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,080 And the first two eras I was really excited about were 1077 01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,520 dangerous and bad. And it was honestly, because 1078 01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,760 those were the performances and things that were coming up when 1079 01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,720 I was first searching. I didn't know that much yet 1080 01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,320 about the earlier eras. So I was really excited about 1081 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,640 those. But I was really most familiar, 1082 01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:55,840 like intimately familiar with the music on Bad and so in the 1083 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,680 whole Bad era. So I was really disappointed 1084 01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,240 when I got to this section of the book. 1085 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,920 And I, I don't, you know, I don't feel the same way now 1086 01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:04,800 because I have so much more knowledge that's filled in the 1087 01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,120 gaps for me. But there is a part of me that's 1088 01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,640 kind of like, oh, man, Michael, I wish we'd taken more time 1089 01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:11,800 here. Like, I know that his vision was 1090 01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:16,920 this perfect album, but other than beginning to address the 1091 01:01:16,920 --> 01:01:21,080 specific songs and why it took so long to create it, he doesn't 1092 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,960 really talk about, like, what were his other visions for it? 1093 01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:26,760 Was he experimenting with his different things? 1094 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:31,040 Like I would love to know what he was writing, what his writing 1095 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:34,720 process looked like and how he chose the songs and all of that. 1096 01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,080 And now maybe not every fan would want all that detail. 1097 01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,440 I'm not sure. So maybe it was the right call 1098 01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,560 to not include it, but that's something that I always wanted. 1099 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,640 He talks a lot here about his relationship with Quincy, 1100 01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:48,840 though. I mean, he references it more 1101 01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:52,320 here about a relationship that there was some tension and 1102 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,560 challenges in when it came to choices and things like that. 1103 01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,920 But I do like his description of saying that how they work 1104 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,680 together was essentially he would be writing music and bring 1105 01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:03,840 it to Quincy and Quincy would give feedback and he would 1106 01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:07,080 Polish it more. And it reminds me a lot of the 1107 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,160 relationship between a writer and an editor where the writer 1108 01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,240 is the one doing a huge part of the creative process. 1109 01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:18,120 The editor is extremely valuable and important when it comes to 1110 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:21,480 helping shape the, the ultimate result of the book. 1111 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,440 It's still the the writer writing, though. 1112 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:26,960 They're they're still the one sort of behind that creative 1113 01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:28,840 experimentation. But the editor is the one 1114 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,040 helping formulate it and finalize it and Polish it into 1115 01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,200 what it will ultimately be. And it just frustrates me 1116 01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:40,520 because I will often hear people trying to credit Quincy more 1117 01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:45,560 than Michael for these amazing albums, whether that's Off the 1118 01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,800 Wall, Thriller or Bad, which were all collaborations between 1119 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,400 Quincy and Michael. And I don't know, I guess it 1120 01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:56,040 just frustrates me because, you know, this weekend I was looking 1121 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,640 at a bookstore and I picked up this book about the history of 1122 01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:02,200 popular music in America. And I, of course, as I always 1123 01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,480 do, I flipped to the index just to see like, you know, how many 1124 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,240 pages are dedicated to Michael Jackson. 1125 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:11,240 And there were only four, which annoyed me to begin with, you 1126 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:13,720 know? But then I flipped to the pages 1127 01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:16,120 themselves. And on every page, there was 1128 01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,720 something disparaging or diminishing about Michael. 1129 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:24,560 Like, for example, talking about how, oh, Michael was untouchable 1130 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:29,560 as a dancer and as a performer, but he was also untouchable as 1131 01:03:29,560 --> 01:03:32,880 one of the singers with the most help from a great team in order 1132 01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,680 to create a good album. And they cited Quincy's 1133 01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,280 involvement with Michael's music, and I will never 1134 01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,760 understand why. But Michael, more than any other 1135 01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,200 artist I'm aware of, gets singled out for working with a 1136 01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,160 specific producer, and then that producer gets credited with 1137 01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:53,200 Michael's work. I mean, Quincy worked with how 1138 01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,160 many other artists in his lifetime? 1139 01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,360 You know, Quincy was a legendary producer by the time Michael 1140 01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:02,840 worked with him. But are there any other albums 1141 01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,880 in Quincy's discography that he of what he worked on that are at 1142 01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,640 the level of Thriller or Bad or even off the Wall? 1143 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:12,880 No, not really. And that that doesn't mean he 1144 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,360 didn't create amazing, amazing work. 1145 01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:21,320 But then why is he the one getting credited when the most 1146 01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,760 commercially successful work he does create is all with one 1147 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,160 person? It that doesn't make sense. 1148 01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,160 And again, it's not a disrespect toward Quincy or his work and 1149 01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,960 what he brought, but it's really frustrating as a Michael Jackson 1150 01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,520 fan, especially as a very highly knowledgeable Michael Jackson 1151 01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,200 fan. Now, I will admit there are a 1152 01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:41,280 lot of Michael fans that are way more knowledgeable when it comes 1153 01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,000 to the music production side of things and Michael's history 1154 01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,480 with every album and the people he worked with. 1155 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,600 But I pay attention, you know, and I listen to a lot and I read 1156 01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,760 a lot and I learn a lot about Michael. 1157 01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:56,680 For example, the MJ cast is a phenomenal interview with John 1158 01:04:56,680 --> 01:05:01,160 Barnes, who worked very closely with Michael in the creation of 1159 01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:05,480 the BAD demos, which are extremely similar, I mean almost 1160 01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,440 exact in some cases to what ends up on the BAD album. 1161 01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,560 Now, John Barnes isn't credited as a producer because he worked 1162 01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,520 privately with Michael and then Michael brought those demos to 1163 01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,240 Quincy. But then my point is that Quincy 1164 01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:23,480 is given a lot of credit on BAD where he wasn't actually the 1165 01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:27,720 primary collaborative force behind some of these songs, you 1166 01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:29,480 know? So it's just things like that 1167 01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:32,840 frustrate me because you have people, you know, in comments 1168 01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,920 and people writing books, I guess, you know, who have a very 1169 01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:39,000 wide general knowledge of music, but they don't necessarily have 1170 01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,920 deep, deep knowledge of Michael Jackson, especially if they come 1171 01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,640 at him from the perspective of wanting to diminish him. 1172 01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:49,920 The only people I ever know to diminish Michael Jackson's 1173 01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,560 artistry are the people who prove themselves to be people 1174 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:55,160 who don't really engage with his artistry. 1175 01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:59,280 So anyway, I'm like projecting some of my negative feelings 1176 01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,520 from this book I looked at this weekend onto this right now and 1177 01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:04,600 all of you. So just ignore me. 1178 01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,120 I'm going to move on. So there's only one last thing I 1179 01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,080 actually want to mention about this section. 1180 01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:15,160 And he ends with talking about the challenge to be competing 1181 01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,000 with himself when it came to Thriller. 1182 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:24,560 And I've heard John Branca, I think, say that he had told 1183 01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,600 Michael he should release an album of covers in between 1184 01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:33,120 Thriller and Bad, You know, just to kind of, like, lessen the 1185 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,320 pressure that he had in himself to try to recreate the success 1186 01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:40,360 of Thriller. And to be honest, I actually 1187 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:41,320 think that would have been great. 1188 01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,360 Like, I'm not saying he should have done that instead of what 1189 01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,320 he did. I don't know how that would have 1190 01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:50,200 affected things, but I do always wish, I always wish that Michael 1191 01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:53,200 had recorded an album of cover songs, whether that's like 1192 01:06:53,200 --> 01:06:57,760 American Standard songs or just covers from his various 1193 01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,080 influences or people he really liked. 1194 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,240 Because there's all these examples of him singing little 1195 01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:05,200 snippets and things. I'm sure I've talked about this 1196 01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,440 before. I'm almost positive I've said 1197 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,920 this exact same thing at some point in Season 1 but there's 1198 01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,800 different songs we've heard him sing little bits of. 1199 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,920 Like, for example, there's some backstage footage of Michael 1200 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:23,560 with Emmanuel Lewis after the Grammys and Michael is singing 1201 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:26,600 the song Automatic by The Pointer Sisters, I think. 1202 01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:31,680 And I feel like I need every thing about Michael's version of 1203 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:35,400 singing that song just like embedded into my skin or 1204 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,760 something. I just love it so much. 1205 01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:41,240 And but it was never released. It's just this little clip that 1206 01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:44,240 floats around that I hear him just casually singing something 1207 01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,560 and it sounds freaking incredible, you know, and it 1208 01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:49,720 kills me. So I wish he had done what John 1209 01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:51,920 Branca had suggested. That would have been very fun. 1210 01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:53,280 I would have very much enjoyed that. 1211 01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:56,360 You know, specifically I wanted to mention this part about 1212 01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:01,560 competing with yourself because I just today read Michael 1213 01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:06,520 Jackson's interview with Interview magazine from 1982. 1214 01:08:06,840 --> 01:08:10,120 So in that he's talking about being in the process still of 1215 01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,640 recording Thriller. So Thriller was not even out 1216 01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:14,520 yet, which is wild to me to think about. 1217 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:17,760 This was like a pre thriller Michael Jackson having this 1218 01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,600 interview and oh God, he's just wonderful in this entire 1219 01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,560 article. I'll probably talk about it more 1220 01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,000 at some point soon, but he's just wonderful in it and 1221 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:30,720 engaging and so interesting. And anyway, he at one point, 1222 01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,800 though, he's talking about how amazed he was by John Travolta, 1223 01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,279 who nobody knew, he says could, like, perform that way. 1224 01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:39,920 And then just like, busted out all these skills. 1225 01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,279 And the interviewer is like, yeah, but he's not really doing 1226 01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:46,240 anything now. And Michael is like, I think 1227 01:08:46,240 --> 01:08:49,640 he's picking and choosing his projects because it's hard to 1228 01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,399 compete with what you once were. Like, it's hard to compete with 1229 01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:55,760 your former work. So you have to be really 1230 01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,240 methodical and it's just, it's interesting to me that he was 1231 01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:03,520 saying that in 1982 pre Thriller and then he's saying this, you 1232 01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:07,160 know, 5 or 6 years later in regard to recording bad. 1233 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,160 And it just it became the story of his own life. 1234 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:13,920 And perhaps at that point, even in 1982, he already really 1235 01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:18,200 related to this idea because of always wanting so much to 1236 01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,520 differentiate himself from Michael Jackson of the Jackson 1237 01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,359 5, you know. So anyway, I just thought that 1238 01:09:24,359 --> 01:09:27,600 was kind of cool. So with that said, we are going 1239 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,120 to bring this episode in this segment to a close. 1240 01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:35,680 We have, Oh my goodness, one week left to finish this book. 1241 01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:39,200 So in next week's episode, I will be finishing that reading 1242 01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,319 and we we will have a conversation about it and then 1243 01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:46,640 there will be another episode released right after that so 1244 01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:51,439 that we can finish up all of our thoughts and ideas about this 1245 01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,560 book. So we're very, very close to our 1246 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,240 ending here. I want to thank you all so much 1247 01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,280 for joining me and for sticking it out. 1248 01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:00,560 I look forward to being with you all next. 1249 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,400 Week. And until then, I hope you have 1250 01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,840 a wonderful, wonderful week and weekend and we will talk again 1251 01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:12,040 very, very soon. Until then, take care.