1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,720 Well, hello friends, thank you so much for joining me for 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,960 another episode of Reading Michael Jackson. 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,720 I am your host, Lena, and I am so happy to be here with you 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,080 again today to continue our reading of Moonwalk. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,680 Wow. OK, so it is episode 10, which 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,480 if you were with me last season feels like nothing. 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:34,360 We had almost 50 episodes last season, but this season's 8 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,560 different. Moonwalk, in a lot of ways will 9 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,960 be a shorter read for us than Dancing the Dream was. 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,960 So at episode 10, we are already over halfway through this 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,600 season. Now this is 10 pure episodes of 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,520 season 2. There have been three bonus 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:00,160 episodes, so you've been listening to a lot, but we have 14 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,680 only 8 episodes left. So as a reminder, we will be 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:10,520 finishing this season the week of the Michael Jackson biopic 16 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,960 release, which this episode is being released on February 24th, 17 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:20,560 which is exactly 2 months until the Michael biopic. 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,120 So I'm really, really excited about it as it's getting closer. 19 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,160 Are you excited? I'm curious about it. 20 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:28,840 Are you getting excited about it? 21 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:33,760 Are you feeling wary about it? Are you feeling conflicted about 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:35,880 it? You know, any emotion would make 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,400 sense to me at this point in the game. 24 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,320 I am personally really looking forward to it. 25 00:01:41,320 --> 00:01:45,440 I'm looking forward to seeing the kind of recreation of the 26 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:50,120 events Michael has been telling us about in this book and seeing 27 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,960 how they are presented to the world and how much they match 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,400 Michael's description and you know how much they don't. 29 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,920 I'm looking forward to that, so I can't wait. 30 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,040 I know they keep releasing new teasers. 31 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,280 There was one that just came out a couple of days ago. 32 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,400 I think it was debuted during the NBA All Star game. 33 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,000 If you haven't seen that one, go take a look. 34 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,080 It's excellent and it's short. It's just a short TV spot 35 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,640 trailer, but new clips of Jafar as Michael more showing his 36 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:25,160 personality a little bit, which is super exciting. 37 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,040 And I have to say, Jafar is adorable. 38 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,840 He's not Michael because no one is and no one could hope to be, 39 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,760 but he's adorable. So I get the sense that unlike 40 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,080 so many of the other biopics or attempts of telling stories 41 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,280 about Michael and his life, my impression is that this will be 42 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,000 quite respectful. So I am very excited. 43 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:50,600 And now that we are just two months away from the movie, I, I 44 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,560 don't know, I can't get enough. I'm so excited. 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,240 So I'm happy that we are doing this. 46 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,680 And we are already halfway through Moonwalk. 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:03,280 So last week we closed out Chapter 3, which really ended on 48 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:08,280 the note of Michael reflecting on the impact of The Wiz. 49 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,880 I What I liked about that chapter is that it ended with 50 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,840 this reflection about how the Wiz was meaningful to Michael 51 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,960 just on a personal level. But of course, it ends at this 52 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,120 sort of cliffhanger of Michael connecting with Quincy Jones. 53 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,520 So that is exactly where we are picking up today at the start of 54 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,240 Chapter 4. Chapter 4 is called Me and Q, 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,120 which is kind of like a cute little play on Me and you. 56 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,440 Anyway, me and Q and if you want to follow along, I will be 57 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:45,960 reading from pages 145 to 160. So now's the time that I invite 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:51,680 you to relax, get comfortable, get cozy, and join me for this 59 00:03:51,680 --> 00:04:06,920 continued reading of Moonwalk. Chapter 4. 60 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,200 I had actually first met Quincy Jones in Los Angeles when I was 61 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,120 about 12 years old. Quincy later told me that at the 62 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,640 same time Sammy Davis Junior had said to him, this kid is going 63 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,200 to be the next biggest thing since sliced bread. 64 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,280 Something like that, anyway. And Quincy said, Oh yeah, I was 65 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:32,480 little at the time but I vaguely remember Sammy Davis introducing 66 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:36,400 me to Q. Our friendship really began to 67 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,120 blossom on the set of The Wiz and it developed into a father 68 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,240 son relationship. After The Wiz. 69 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,480 I called him and said, look, I'm going to do an album. 70 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,880 Do you think you could recommend some producers? 71 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,920 I wasn't hinting. My question was a naive but 72 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,160 honest one. We talked about music for a 73 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,720 while and after coming up with some names and some half hearted 74 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,760 Hemming and hawing he said why don't you let me do it? 75 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:06,320 I really hadn't thought of it. It sounded to him as if I was 76 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,680 hinting but I wasn't. I just didn't think he would be 77 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,320 that interested in my music. So I stammered something like oh 78 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,560 sure, great idea, I never thought about that. 79 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,600 Quincy still kids me about it. Anyway, we immediately began to 80 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,040 plan the album that became Off the Wall. 81 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:29,400 My brothers and I decided to form our own production company 82 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,160 and we began thinking about names to call it. 83 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,160 You don't find many articles about Peacocks in the newspaper, 84 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,040 but around this time I found the only one that mattered. 85 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,680 I had always thought Peacocks were beautiful and had admired 86 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,520 one that Berry Gordy had at one of his homes. 87 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,960 So when I read the article, which had an accompanying 88 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,360 picture of a Peacock and revealed a great deal about the 89 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,720 birds characteristics, I was excited. 90 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,800 I thought I might have found the image we were looking for. 91 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,920 It was an in depth piece, a little dry in places, but 92 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,560 interesting. The writer said that the 93 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,440 peacock's full plumage would explode only when it was in 94 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,800 love, and then all the colors would shine, all the colors of 95 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,760 the rainbow on one body. I was immediately taken with 96 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,640 that beautiful image and the meaning behind it. 97 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,840 That bird's plumage conveyed the message I was looking for to 98 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:30,520 explain the Jacksons and our intense devotion to one another 99 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,000 as well as our multifaceted interests. 100 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,880 My brothers liked the idea, so we called our new company 101 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,440 Peacock Productions. To sidestep the trap of relying 102 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:46,000 too heavily on the Jackson name. Our first world tour had focused 103 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,560 our interest in uniting people of all races through music. 104 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,360 Some people we knew wondered what we meant when we talked 105 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,200 about uniting all races through music. 106 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,720 After all, we were black musicians. 107 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,280 Our answer was music is color blind. 108 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,880 We saw that every night, especially in Europe and the 109 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,600 other parts of the world we had visited. 110 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,520 The people we met there loved our music. 111 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,960 It didn't matter to them what color our skin was or which 112 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,880 country we called home. We wanted to form our own 113 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,080 production company because we wanted to grow and establish 114 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,040 ourselves as a new presence in the music world, not just as 115 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,920 singers and dancers, but as writers, composers, arrangers, 116 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:33,480 producers, even publishers. We were interested in so many 117 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,240 things and we needed an umbrella company to keep track of our 118 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,400 projects. CBS had agreed to let us produce 119 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,000 our own album. The last two albums had sold 120 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,640 well, but Different Kind of Lady showed a potential that they 121 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,480 agreed was worth letting us develop. 122 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:50,920 They did have one condition for us. 123 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,680 They signed an AR man, Bobby Columbi, who used to be with 124 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:59,200 Blood, Sweat and Tears, to check in with us from time to time to 125 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,640 see how we were doing and to see if we needed any help. 126 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,160 We knew that the five of us needed some outside musicians to 127 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,760 get the best possible sound and we were weak in two areas, the 128 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,720 keyboard and arranging side of things. 129 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,920 We had been faithfully adding all the new technology to our 130 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,200 Encino studio without really having a mastery of it. 131 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,320 Greg filling games was young for a studio pro, but that was a 132 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,360 plus so far as we were concerned because we wanted someone who 133 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,240 would be more open to newer ways of doing things than the 134 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,720 seasoned veterans we had encountered over the years. 135 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,280 He came to Encino to do pre production work and we all took 136 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,960 turns surprising each other. Our mutual preconceptions just 137 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,440 dissolved. It was a great thing to watch as 138 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,400 we sketched out our new songs for him. 139 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,520 We told him that we liked the vocal tracks that Philly 140 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,040 International always put a premium on, but when the mix 141 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,320 came out we always seemed to be fighting someone else's wall of 142 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,400 sound. All those strings and symbols we 143 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,200 wanted sound cleaner and more funky with a flintier bass and 144 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,640 sharper horn parts. With his beautiful rhythm 145 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,040 arrangements, Greg put into musical form what we were 146 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,960 sketching for him and then some. We felt he was reading our 147 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,280 minds. A Bobby Columbi recruit who came 148 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,480 to work with us was Paulino Dacosta, who we worried about 149 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,480 because it seemed to us that Randy was being told that he 150 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:24,760 couldn't handle all the percussion himself. 151 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,760 But Paulino brought with him the Brazilian samba tradition of 152 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,920 adapting and improvising on primitive and often homemade 153 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,680 instruments. When Dacosta's sound joined 154 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:37,160 forces with Randy's more conventional approach. 155 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:40,000 We seem to have the whole world covered. 156 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,520 Artistically speaking. We were caught between a rock 157 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,240 and a hard place. We had worked with the smartest, 158 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,400 hippest pop people in the world at Motown and Philly 159 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,560 International and we would have been fools to discount the 160 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:56,240 things we'd absorbed from them. Yet we couldn't be imitators. 161 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,720 Fortunately, we got a running start with a song that Bobby 162 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,920 Columbi brought to us called Blame It on the Boogie. 163 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,360 It was an up tempo, finger poppin time song that was good 164 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,800 vehicle for the band approach we wanted to cultivate. 165 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,800 I had fun slurring the chorus. Blame It on the Boogie could be 166 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,360 sung in one breath without putting my lips together. 167 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,320 We had a little fun with the credits on the inner sleeve of 168 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,640 the record. Blame It on the Boogie was 169 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,880 written by three guys from England, including one named 170 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,920 Michael Jackson. It was a startling coincidence, 171 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,520 as it turned out. Writing disco songs was a 172 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,280 natural for me because I was used to having dance breaks 173 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,560 incorporated into all of the major songs I was asked to sing. 174 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,760 There was a lot of uncertainty and excitement about our future. 175 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,000 We were going through a lot of creative and personal changes, 176 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,000 our music, the family dynamics, our desires and goals. 177 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,240 All of this made me think more seriously about how I was 178 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,360 spending my life, especially in relation to other people my age. 179 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,720 I had always shouldered a lot of responsibility, but it suddenly 180 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,960 seemed that everyone wanted a piece of me. 181 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,320 There wasn't that much to go around, and I needed to be 182 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,960 responsible to myself. I had to take stock of my life 183 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,920 and figure out what people wanted from me and to whom I was 184 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,360 going to give wholly. It was a hard thing for me to 185 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,840 do, but I had to learn to be wary of some of the people 186 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,840 around me. God was at the top of my list of 187 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,280 priorities, and my mother and father and brothers and sisters 188 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,200 followed. I was reminded of that old song 189 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,680 by Clarence Carter called Patches, where the oldest son is 190 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,240 asked to take care of the farm after his father dies and his 191 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,080 mother tells him she's depending on him. 192 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,120 Well, we weren't sharecroppers and I wasn't the oldest, but 193 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,280 those were slim shoulders on which to place such burdens. 194 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,080 For some reason I always found it difficult to say no to my 195 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,600 family and the other people I loved. 196 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,080 I would be asked to do something or take care of something and I 197 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,960 would agree, even if I worried that it might be more than I 198 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,600 could handle. I felt under a great deal of 199 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,040 stress and I was often emotional. 200 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:10,480 Stress can be a terrible thing. You can't keep your emotions 201 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,960 bottled up for long. There were a lot of people at 202 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,200 this time who wondered just how committed I was to music after 203 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,200 learning of my new found interest in movies after being 204 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,040 in one. It was hinted that my decision 205 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,520 to audition had come at a bad time for the new band setup. 206 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,880 It seemed to outsiders to come just as we were about to get 207 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,160 started, but of course it worked out just fine. 208 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,880 That's what you get for being polite was my way of letting on 209 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,520 that I knew I wasn't living in an ivory tower and that I had 210 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,480 insecurities and doubts, just as all older teenagers do. 211 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,360 I was worried that the world and all it had to offer could be 212 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:55,200 passing me by, even as I tried to get on top of my field. 213 00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:59,360 There was a Gamble and Huff song called Dreamer on the first epic 214 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,560 album which had this theme, and as I was learning it I felt they 215 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:05,480 could have written it with me in mind. 216 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,720 I've always been a dreamer. I set goals for myself. 217 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,800 I look at things and I try to imagine what is possible. 218 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,360 And then I hoped to surpass those boundaries. 219 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:21,240 In 1979, I turned 21 years old and began to take full control 220 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,120 of my career. My father's personal management 221 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,680 contract with me ran out around this time, and although it was a 222 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,520 hard decision, the contract was not renewed. 223 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:37,080 Trying to fire your dad is not easy, but I just didn't like the 224 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,720 way certain things were being handled. 225 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,840 Mixing family and business can be a delicate situation. 226 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,080 It could be great or it could be awful. 227 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,840 It depends on the relationships. Even at the best of times, it's 228 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,040 a hard thing to do. Did it change the relationship 229 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,560 between me and my father? I don't know if it did in his 230 00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:00,880 heart, but it certainly didn't in mine. 231 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,560 It was a move I knew I had to make because at the time I was 232 00:14:05,560 --> 00:14:09,040 beginning to feel that I was working for him rather than that 233 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,760 he was working for me. And on the creative side, we are 234 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,880 of 2 completely different minds. He would come up with ideas that 235 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,520 I would totally disagree with because they weren't right for 236 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,680 me. All I wanted was control over my 237 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,920 own life and I took it. I had to do it. 238 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,080 Everyone comes to that point sooner or later and I had been 239 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,680 in the business for a long time. I was pretty experienced for 21, 240 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:40,880 a 15 year veteran. We were eager to take the 241 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:45,200 Destiny Band and concept on the road, but I got hoarse from too 242 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,040 many shows, too much singing. When we had to cancel some 243 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,000 performances. No one held it against me, but I 244 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,360 felt as if I was holding my brother's back after the great 245 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,160 job they had done. While we worked together to get 246 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,360 us all back on track, we made some makeshift adjustments in 247 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,200 order to ease the strain on my throat. 248 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,200 Marlon took over for me in some passages that required holding 249 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,720 long notes. Shake your body down to the 250 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,040 Ground, our set piece on the album, turned out to be a 251 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,240 lifesaver for us on stage because we already had a good 252 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,720 jam in the studio to build on. It was frustrating to have 253 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,560 finally realized our dream of having our own music as the 254 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,480 showpiece rather than the novelty song, and not being able 255 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,880 to give it our very best shot. It wasn't long, however, before 256 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,240 our time would come, and looking back, I realized I was more 257 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,680 patient than perhaps my brothers wanted me to be. 258 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,800 As we were remixing Destiny, it occurred to me that we had left 259 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,680 out some things I hadn't talked to my brothers about because I 260 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,440 wasn't sure they'd be as interested in them as I was. 261 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,040 Epic had arranged in the contract that they would handle 262 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,320 any solo album I might decide to do. 263 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,200 Perhaps they were hedging their bets. 264 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,320 If the Jacksons couldn't make their new sound work, they could 265 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,880 turn me into something they can mold for the rest of my life. 266 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,400 That seemed like a suspicious way of thinking, but I knew from 267 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,080 experience that many people always wanted to know what is 268 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:13,120 going on and what can happen and how to recoup their investment. 269 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,520 It seemed logical for them to think that way in the light of 270 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,360 what's happened since. I wonder about those thoughts I 271 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,200 had, but they were real. At the time, Destiny was our 272 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,120 biggest success as an album, and we knew we had really reached 273 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,000 the point where people bought your record because they knew 274 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,080 you were good and knew you'd give them your very best on 275 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,080 every song and every album. I wanted my first solo album to 276 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,960 be the best it could be. I didn't want Off the Wall to 277 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,760 sound like outtakes from Destiny. 278 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,680 That's why I wanted to hire an outside producer who wouldn't 279 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,560 come to this project with any preconceived notions about how 280 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,280 it should sound. I also needed someone with a 281 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,640 good ear to help me choose material because I didn't have 282 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,480 enough time to write two sides of songs I'd be proud of. 283 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,079 I knew the public expected more than two good singles on an 284 00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:09,160 album, especially in the discos with their extended cuts, and I 285 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,000 wanted the fans to feel satisfied. 286 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,920 These are all the reasons why Quincy proved to be the best 287 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,560 producer I could have asked for. Quincy Jones's friends called 288 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,960 him Q for short because of the love he has for BBQ. 289 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,079 Later, after we'd finished Off the Wall, he invited me to a 290 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,800 concert of his orchestral music at the Hollywood Bowl, but I was 291 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,200 so shy at the time that I stood in the wings to watch the show 292 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,920 as I had as a child. He said he expected more from me 293 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,800 than that, and we've been trying to live up to each other's 294 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:44,280 standards ever since that day. I had called to ask his advice 295 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,000 about a producer. He started talking about people 296 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,400 in the business, who I could work with and who I'd have 297 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,400 trouble with. He knew track records, who was 298 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,040 booked. He'd be too LAX. 299 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,840 He'd put the pedal to the metal. He knew Los Angeles better than 300 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,280 Mayor Bradley, and that's how he kept up with what was going on 301 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,440 as a jazz arranger, orchestrator and film composer, someone 302 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,600 people thought was on the outside looking in as far as pop 303 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,720 music was concerned, he was an invaluable guide. 304 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:16,520 I was so glad that my outside source was a good friend who 305 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,520 also happened to be the perfect choice for a producer. 306 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,200 He had a world of talent to choose from among his contacts, 307 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,400 and he was a good listener as well as a brilliant man. 308 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,720 The Off the Wall album was originally going to be called 309 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,720 Girlfriend. Paul and Linda McCartney wrote a 310 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,640 song of that title with me in mind before they ever met me. 311 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,320 Paul McCartney always tells people this story about me 312 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,960 calling him and saying we should write some hit songs together, 313 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,440 but that's not exactly how we first met. 314 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,120 I saw Paul for the first time at a party on the Queen Mary, which 315 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,000 is docked in Long Beach. His daughter Heather got my 316 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,680 number from someone and gave me a call to invite me to this big 317 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:57,080 party. She liked our music, and we got 318 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,640 to talking. Much later, when his Wings Over 319 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840 America tour was completed, Paul and his family were in Los 320 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,200 Angeles. They invited me to a party at 321 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,520 the Harold Lloyd Estate. Paul McCartney and I first met 322 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,040 at that party. We shook hands amid a huge crowd 323 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,000 of people. And he said, you know, I've 324 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,240 written a song for you. I was very surprised and thanked 325 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:19,600 him. And he started singing 326 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,120 girlfriend to me at this party. So we exchanged phone numbers 327 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:24,840 and promised to get together soon. 328 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,240 But different projects in life just got in the way for both of 329 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,880 us, and we didn't talk again for a couple of years. 330 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,720 He ended up putting the song on his own album, London Town. 331 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,080 The strangest thing happened when we were making Off the 332 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,560 Wall. Quincy walked up to me one day 333 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,880 and said, Michael, I've got a song that's perfect for you. 334 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,240 He played Girlfriend for me, not realizing, of course, that Paul 335 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,000 had written it for me originally. 336 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,040 When I told him, he was astonished and pleased. 337 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,200 We recorded it soon after and put it on the album. 338 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,600 It was an incredible coincidence. 339 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,560 Quincy and I talked about Off the Wall and carefully planned 340 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,080 the kind of sound we wanted. When he asked me what I most 341 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,000 wanted to have happen in the studio, I told him we've got to 342 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,000 make it sound different from the Jacksons. 343 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,560 Hard words to spit out, considering how hard we'd work 344 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,000 to become the Jacksons, but Quincy knew what I meant, and 345 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,800 together we created an album that reflected our goal. 346 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,360 Rock With You, the big hit single, was the sort of thing I 347 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,200 was aiming for. It was perfect for me to sing 348 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,000 and move to. Rod Temperton, whom Quincy had 349 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,760 known because of his work with the group Heat Wave on Boogie 350 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,440 Nights, had written the song with a more relentless Get Down 351 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,320 arrangement in mind, softened the attack and slipped in a 352 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:46,120 synthesizer that sounded like a conch shells inside on a beach. 353 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,920 Q and I were both very fond of Rods work and we eventually 354 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,760 asked him to work on stylizing three of his songs for me, 355 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:58,000 including the title cut. Rod was a kindred spirit in many 356 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,720 ways. Like me, he felt more at home 357 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,480 singing and writing about the nightlife that actually going 358 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,280 out and living it. It always surprises me when 359 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,480 people assume that something an artist has created is based on a 360 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,160 true experience or reflects his or her own lifestyle. 361 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,360 Often, nothing could be farther from the truth. 362 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,520 I know I draw on my experiences at times, but I also hear and 363 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,720 read things that trigger an idea for a song. 364 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,000 An artist's imagination is his greatest tool. 365 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:30,960 It can create a mood or feeling that people want to have, as 366 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,720 well as transport you to a different place altogether. 367 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,720 In the studio, Quincy allowed the arrangers and musicians 368 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,760 quite a bit of freedom to express themselves, perhaps with 369 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,520 the exception of the orchestral arrangements, which are his 370 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,960 Forte. I brought Greg Filling Games, a 371 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:51,320 member of the Destiny team, over to run the floor on numbers that 372 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,840 he and I had worked together on in Encino while the studio 373 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,640 people were being lined up for the date. 374 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,760 In addition to Greg, Paulino Dacosta was back on percussion 375 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,880 and Randy made a cameo appearance on Don't Stop Till 376 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,640 You Get Enough. Quincy is amazing and doesn't 377 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,480 just pick yes men to do his bidding. 378 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,240 I have been around professionals all my life and I can tell who 379 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,680 is trying to keep up, who can create and who is capable of 380 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,840 crossing swords once in a while in a constructive way without 381 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,840 losing sight of the shared goal. We had Lewis Thunder Thumbs 382 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,000 Johnson who had worked with Quincy on The Brothers Johnson 383 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,480 albums. We also had an All Star team of 384 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,840 Wawa Watson, Marlo Henderson, David Williams and Larry Carlton 385 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,400 from The Crusaders playing guitar on the album. 386 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,040 George Duke, Phil Upchurch and Richard Heath were picked from 387 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,240 the cream of the jazz funk crop, yet they never let on that maybe 388 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,120 this music was a little different from what they were 389 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,920 used to. Quincy and I had a good working 390 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,440 relationship, so we shared responsibilities and consulted 391 00:22:53,440 --> 00:23:08,640 with one another constantly. OK, so we are going to pause 392 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,720 there. I have to say, I hate the idea 393 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:16,600 of pausing here, but it's the best break in chapter 4 to allow 394 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,680 for some balance between this episode and the next episode, 395 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,800 which we'll finish Chapter 4. So bear with me. 396 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,240 I'm sorry about a kind of awkward break in the middle of 397 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:30,400 talking about Off the Wall and the various songs, though so far 398 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,240 we've only heard about a few. So most of the album we have 399 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:38,280 left to talk about next week. So there's a lot to discuss here 400 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:42,040 in this section. It was about 15 pages with a few 401 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:47,040 photo pages scattered in there. And so let's just get into it. 402 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,920 Let's have a review of everything that we have learned 403 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,400 from Michael here. So we start Chapter 4 with some 404 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,000 insight into Michael's developing relationship with 405 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,280 Quincy Jones and how that came to be. 406 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,480 I, I really just, I, I don't normally comment on the 407 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:06,960 photography that much, but you guys, what can I say? 408 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,280 Just the, the first page of chapter 4, the chapter starts on 409 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,600 the right and on the left is this incredible photo of Michael 410 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,960 with Quincy Jones. And it looks like it's during 411 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,840 the bad era. Quincy is laughing and he looks 412 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,480 happy and Michael is laughing and he looks absolutely 413 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,800 incredible. I just like, what can I say? 414 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,640 I it feels wrong sometimes to not acknowledge these photos and 415 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,400 be like, my God, have you seen him? 416 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,920 It's crazy. I'm not trying to sound 417 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,960 superficial, but I mean, I'm only a woman. 418 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,280 What can I do? Anyway, Michael is breaking my 419 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,960 heart and that's all I'll say about that. 420 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,880 Let's move on. I love this first introduction 421 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,920 to Michael reflecting on his relationship with Quincy, 422 00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:53,600 specifically this whole piece about like he met him when he 423 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,920 was 12 years old and Sammy Davis Junior introduced them. 424 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:01,120 Like what a life Michael has LED that at 12 years old, he is at a 425 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,480 party with Sammy Davis Junior. You know what I mean? 426 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,040 Like, I feel like he probably doesn't fully appreciate how 427 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,080 strange that is to the average person who'd be reading this. 428 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,280 You know, it's it's just such an odd life filled with this All 429 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,000 Star cast of people. And I love, I hope it's true, I 430 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,120 love the idea that immediately, at 12 years old, Sammy Davis 431 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:29,120 Junior could tell when he looked at Michael what and who he was 432 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:32,800 and what he would become. It's just the stuff of legends, 433 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,520 you know, which I, I just adore. But I find this part really 434 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,080 interesting because it shows a little bit of like discord to 435 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,000 me. And by that I don't mean any 436 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,760 kind of heavy discord, but maybe a little bit of Michael's 437 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,680 frustration and how people present things to the world. 438 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,920 So he says that he genuinely did not have any plan or idea for 439 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,560 Quincy to produce his album. He called him up, he was 440 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,360 talking, they were chatting about music, and he innocently 441 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,360 asked what kind of producer do you think I should work with? 442 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,480 And then it evolved from there. I have heard Quincy say in the 443 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,880 public and interviews, I've heard him say that he thinks 444 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,480 Michael was kind of putting on a ruse and was actually trying to 445 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,080 ask him. And Michael has here said that 446 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,560 isn't true and he says this, but that's not the truth. 447 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,200 And even though this is a light hearted thing, it's a very light 448 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,880 hearted thing, right? I think this is a good example 449 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:36,920 of many, many cases where someone who worked with Michael 450 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,960 or knew Michael shares their version of a story and the 451 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,240 public can start to assume that version is more true than 452 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,600 Michael's. Now, I don't know. 453 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,360 I wasn't there. But I don't see any reason 454 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:53,480 Michael would lie about that. You know, I mean, I don't know 455 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,200 why that would be the case. I do think it's possible that an 456 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,720 industry like the music industry where Quincy was so ingrained 457 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,680 and spent so much time working with like the biggest people and 458 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,200 just like he's like Michael says here, he knew everyone. 459 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,440 You might find it hard to believe that someone was kind of 460 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,600 as wide eyed as Michael was just innocently talking and having 461 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,640 this conversation and asking for a recommendation. 462 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,760 It might be hard to believe that he wasn't trying to get 463 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,480 something from him because perhaps that's what's normal in 464 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,440 this culture and that's what's normal in this industry is 465 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,720 someone is always trying to get something from someone. 466 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,840 And again, I'm not trying to make this example sound like 467 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,000 bigger than it was, but I do think Michael's intentionally 468 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,360 correcting a narrative here, not because it's actually that big 469 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:50,000 of a deal, but because this is just another example of ways in 470 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,840 which for him, he's being completely sincere and people 471 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,440 are misinterpreting it or misrepresenting it in some way. 472 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,200 So even though this isn't, you know, a super heavy topic or 473 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,960 anything like that, I do think for us as even fans, it kind of 474 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,120 shows like, yeah, this is constantly something he dealt 475 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:08,360 with. And it's something we still deal 476 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:13,040 with where even today, in the year 2026, we see people who are 477 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,560 collaborators with Michael come out and claim credit for things 478 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,560 that they never claimed when Michael was alive. 479 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,800 Or they tell a story that something happened a certain 480 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,920 way, which they never said until Michael was no longer alive. 481 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,160 And then the fans and the public, they start to take it 482 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,720 literally or they start to take it because, I don't know, 483 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,920 Michael isn't here to respond because Michael was not the kind 484 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,400 of person who typically did respond when this happened, you 485 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,880 know, outside of this book. And I just think it's something 486 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,440 we have to pay attention to now, of course, again, light hearted 487 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,000 here, right? This doesn't matter. 488 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,800 They're friends here. They're talking about it. 489 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,560 But I just think it's an interesting example of what I'm 490 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,400 talking about. People don't tend to assume as 491 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,000 much innocence for Michael's part. 492 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,160 People tend to believe other people for some reason. 493 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,200 I'm not really sure what the reason for that is, but I guess 494 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,120 I just wanted to call some attention to that. 495 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,680 What's interesting for me moving on from here is that 496 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,240 simultaneous to Michael developing plans to work on Off 497 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,840 the Wall, he was actively developing plans to work with 498 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,600 the Jacksons to develop the production company to put out 499 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,600 Destiny, to go on tour with Destiny. 500 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,040 So think about this timeline. We have The Wiz come out in 501 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:33,040 1978, Destiny comes out in 1978. Off the Wall comes out in 1979, 502 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:38,320 Triumph comes out in 1980, Thriller comes out in 1982. 503 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,120 So in the space of literally four years in terms of release. 504 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,720 I mean if I guess if we extended to the the time frame that they 505 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,840 were working on these things, five years. 506 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,560 In the space of five years, Michael is working on and 507 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:58,600 releasing 4 studio albums, going on two major tours with Destiny 508 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,800 and Triumph, filming his first movie, and releasing Thriller, 509 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,000 which would have become the biggest album of all time. 510 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,400 You know what I mean? Like, that's crazy when you 511 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,440 actually think about it. The like back-to-back dates of 512 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,040 what he was doing, it's insane. So he was in a really kind of 513 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,640 almost like a creative renaissance at this moment where 514 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,920 every aspect of his creative world was exploding. 515 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:26,440 And his own ability to tap into what his dreams were and what he 516 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:33,000 wanted, what he was trying to create, all coincided at the 517 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,480 same time, along with his desire to grow some independence. 518 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,840 And it's kind of obvious when you see Destiny and triumph kind 519 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,680 of peppered between the Wiz Off the Wall and Thriller. 520 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,320 You know, Michael was dipping in and out of his own world, his 521 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,960 own creative identity, and then back into his family's 522 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,760 connection and their musical synergy. 523 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,440 You know, so this is a very, very intense time in his life. 524 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,680 It's amazing to me to think that he worked with his brothers to 525 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,480 create this Peacock production company. 526 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,520 I also really love this whole section, not just because of, 527 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,520 you know, learning about that drive that he had, but just the 528 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,160 symbolism of the Peacock and what that meant to him. 529 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,360 He quotes this article. He says the writer said that the 530 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,160 Peacocks full plumage would explode only when it was in love 531 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,720 and then all of the colors would shine, all of the colors of the 532 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,680 rainbow on one body. I just love it because this just 533 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,280 reminds me a little bit of last season when we talked so much 534 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,640 about Michaels fascination with animals and the environment and 535 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,880 like looking at the metaphors that exist in nature. 536 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,800 And that is so accurate. I mean, this idea that the 537 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,760 Peacock only really flourishes when it's in love and it becomes 538 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,120 its kind of most beautiful self when it is in love. 539 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,080 It really does kind of represent what you could say the impact of 540 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,160 love is in our lives as people. No matter where you get your 541 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,200 love from, no matter what love you feel, if you feel and have 542 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,400 intense love in your life, whatever that looks like, 543 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,200 profound, beautiful love should ideally bring out the most 544 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,440 beautiful version of us, the best version of us. 545 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,840 And I love that he was inspired by that. 546 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,960 It always makes me happy to reread this and remember how 547 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,800 driven Michael was when he was working with his brothers to 548 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,600 create something that really represented what would 549 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:31,040 ultimately be his own legacy. You know, talking about how 550 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,640 travelling around the world and touring around the world exposed 551 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,920 him to how music could be so unifying. 552 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,400 He says all of this and and very similar things to this 553 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,720 throughout his career. I remember in the the much 554 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,280 quoted, at least by me, much quoted Ebony Jet interview in 555 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,000 1987. I'm laughing because if you 556 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,120 listen regularly to me, you know, I just like I constantly, 557 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,400 I can't get this. I can't, I can't get this 558 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,440 interview out of my head ever. He has asked if he would ever 559 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,640 want to be an ambassador around the world and he says, I feel 560 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,680 like I already am with my music. And it's pretty evident when you 561 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,360 see this actually. And this is a little bit of a 562 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,760 side note, but like this at this being part of Michael's whole 563 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,600 mission, you know, to unify and spread love. 564 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,200 I was just reading an article today on MJ Vibe and it said 565 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,120 that I guess there was some really big meeting of 566 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,560 dignitaries and things that I don't know anything about the 567 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,680 context of it. I just know there was this 568 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,240 meeting in Munich between a bunch of world leaders, and I 569 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,760 guess at some point they were filming them walking into this 570 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,000 building and they caught a glimpse on camera of the Michael 571 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,480 Jackson memorial that exists in Munich. 572 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,320 And if you don't know about this memorial, you don't know what 573 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,000 this is. It's a really incredible public 574 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,080 memorial that has just been like permanently A fixture there 575 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,000 where people have photos of Michael and like gifts that they 576 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,200 leave him and messages for him and flowers and stuff. 577 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,080 It's like this big public spot. And it's amazing to me that that 578 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,360 can even exist and not be trampled or harmed. 579 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,760 That would never get by in America. 580 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,800 I'm just being honest with you. Someone is always out to kind of 581 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,600 ruin things here. But the fact that that's been 582 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,040 maintained in some degree for so many years because I think it 583 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,440 was put up after he died, I believe. 584 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,760 And yeah, it's just kind of cool. 585 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,239 Anyway, the article featured this and was talking about how 586 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,960 the backdrop of having Michael Jackson's memorial right there 587 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,040 when everything he represented was this global unity. 588 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,239 It was just like an interesting moment to see it again in the 589 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,960 media. You know, I don't know. 590 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,040 I just thought of that because I read it earlier today, so maybe 591 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,000 I will link it in the description so you can check out 592 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,320 the article if you're interested. 593 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,239 Needless to say, he says they formed this production company 594 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,679 because they were interested in doing more than just singing and 595 00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:47,199 dancing, but also being writers, composers, arrangers, producers 596 00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,400 and publishers, and they had all these different projects they 597 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,960 wanted under this umbrella. I don't know and I have to 598 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,679 research this because I don't know at what point did that 599 00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:58,720 production company ever really dissolve? 600 00:34:58,720 --> 00:35:02,680 Did Michael ever leave it? What kind of projects outside of 601 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,400 the albums did they put out? I'm very curious about this and 602 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,440 so I maybe I'll look into this a little bit more and follow up in 603 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,760 the future because I, I think that that is notable and kind of 604 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,080 important. I mean, this was he's a teenager 605 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,800 essentially forming this and I want to know what he did with 606 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,880 that and what they all did with that and what projects 607 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,360 manifested from it. So maybe I'll, I'll look it up 608 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,680 and, and report back my findings. 609 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,840 So Michael talks a little bit about writing and producing the 610 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,600 Destiny album. He doesn't really give as much 611 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,720 detail as I would have expected, to be honest. 612 00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:37,160 Like I, I kind of forgot how little he talks about it and I 613 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,920 wonder why. And I'm keep wondering, does he 614 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,520 talk about it again later? But it doesn't seem like he's 615 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,640 going to. So I'm a little bit disturbed by 616 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,080 this. Michael, what is going on? 617 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,320 There are so many songs I want to hear him talk about like push 618 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,840 Me Away for example, which is one of my favorite, favorite 619 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,800 songs of Michaels and the Jacksons. 620 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,560 Bless his soul. You know, so many of these other 621 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,480 ones. I know I mentioned this a couple 622 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,360 of weeks ago, but I want to reiterate, if you are interested 623 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,400 in the Destiny album and learning more about the history 624 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,440 of it, the MJ cast just had an amazing episode about it was 625 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,880 like a Destiny roundtable. And all the people speaking on 626 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,760 it are people who are really very, very knowledgeable about 627 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,080 not only the Jacksons and Michael Jackson, but about music 628 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,120 in general. And it was a really fascinating 629 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,000 deep dive. I really highly recommend it if 630 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,200 you're interested because Michael does not give us much to 631 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,800 go off of, does he? I wish he would. 632 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,520 However, I do want to mention a couple of things. 633 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,320 So one of the coolest things here is that this is when 634 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,480 Michael starts working with Greg filling games. 635 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,080 And for those of us who are deeply embedded in the Michael 636 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,640 Jackson world, that of course is a name we know. 637 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,560 But if you're kind of newer or not as familiar with all of the 638 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,000 different people in his orbit, Greg Filling Gaines worked with 639 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,520 Michael for most of his career. I mean, he's on I think every 640 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,880 tour, every world tour Michael did on his own. 641 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,320 So he worked with him during the Jacksons era, but also moved on 642 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,920 to work with him during his solo career. 643 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,760 And so you see him in a lot of performances. 644 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,920 You see him on stage with Michael, working with Michael, 645 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,160 collaborating with Michael. He's a big part of the Michael 646 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,200 musical cast, so to speak. So it's, it's cool to see that 647 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,960 that began so early and immediately was such like a, 648 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,040 such a synergy in terms of like connection. 649 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,120 I'm not aware of Greg having any book out or anything like that, 650 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,200 but I, I would be so interested to learn more or to even have 651 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,960 like a documentary about Greg would be really cool. 652 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,680 I'm just very curious about, you know, his relationship with 653 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,360 Michael and how they worked so closely together. 654 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:40,480 I do know he has some interviews, of course, I've 655 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,440 listened to, but just neat to have that kind of grounded in 656 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,880 this moment. I also want to chat quickly 657 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:52,760 about on the Destiny album, Michael's story and reasoning 658 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,880 for writing. That's what you get for being 659 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,760 polite. This entire part is really 660 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,040 important. I think Michael here is, I think 661 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,840 retroactively, because this is, of course, coming out in the 662 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,760 late 80s, Michael, I think, is retroactively trying to explain 663 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,000 himself to the world. I mean, I guess on some level 664 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,080 that's what we're always doing in memoir or in, you know, 665 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,040 sharing an autobiography or whatever. 666 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,160 You're trying to explain your perspective and what you 667 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,760 experienced. But he's describing a kind of 668 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,360 hyper stress that he experienced talking about identifying people 669 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,640 who were trying to take advantage of him, about feeling 670 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,160 unable to say no to his family and really struggling if he ever 671 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,320 loved someone to say no to them. He says specifically say no to 672 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,600 my family and anyone I love. And it made me wonder who else 673 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,280 he loved that he felt maybe took advantage sometime. 674 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,120 I mean, back at this time we're talking about, we're talking 675 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,280 about the late 70s, early 80s time period. 676 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,920 So who was in his life? You know, who are the people in 677 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,600 the players? We don't know all of them. 678 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,280 We know some. We don't know all of them. 679 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,760 People who were taking advantage of his good nature, taking 680 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,320 advantage of his desire to help and to give back. 681 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,160 What he describes here is something I think a lot of 682 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,200 people do go through in life where at some point, at some 683 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,120 age, some marker in our life, we have to reflect on what we want 684 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,080 our lives to look like. And how the people in our lives 685 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,440 are either serving it and helping us get there and 686 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,640 actively reflecting the life we want or the people who are 687 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,640 moving us further away from the life that we want. 688 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,960 And it really, I don't know, I guess it breaks my heart a 689 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,480 little bit because he was really young going through that. 690 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,360 Like, I think a lot of people go through that all different 691 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,800 stages of life, of course, but you know, once they've lived a 692 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,520 little bit longer, you know, they've had more experiences, 693 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,080 negative experiences with people. 694 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,440 Michael's talking about this when he's like, 19, you know, 695 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,960 And it's kind of, it's kind of sad to me, I guess, that he was 696 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,760 that young and starting to realize that the world wasn't 697 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,200 quite, as, you know, it wasn't necessarily to be trusted in 698 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,840 that way or that people wouldn't always have his personal best 699 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,280 interest in mind if they thought they could get something from 700 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,040 him. He's talks about this song 701 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,400 called Patches by Clarence Carter, and it talks about how 702 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,160 the oldest son is being tasked to take care of the whole family 703 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,800 after the father passes away. And he says, like, sure, this 704 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,720 wasn't my exact situation, and I certainly wasn't the oldest, but 705 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:25,520 that is what happened. And yeah, his father didn't die. 706 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,920 But I wonder if to some degree it's like, OK, we moved away 707 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,120 from Motown. You were the one who pushed 708 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,240 this. So it's up to you to make 709 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:37,400 everything kind of work for us. And I don't mean that that's 710 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,240 literally how it was portrayed, but it's obviously how he felt, 711 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,360 right? I mean, there's clearly no lack 712 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,560 of love here from Michael to his family. 713 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,040 There is a desire to work with them. 714 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,480 There's a desire to connect with them. 715 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,640 He obviously loves them. And he says right here, God and 716 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,040 his family are at the very top of his list for everything. 717 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,200 But to some degree, it feels like maybe it was a little bit 718 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,720 of a trap for him, or it felt like a little bit of a trap for 719 00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:02,960 him. Again, I talked about this last 720 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:07,280 week, but the Michael biopic is so far in the trailer at least 721 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,120 hinting that this is going to be a big part of the story. 722 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,000 And I know some people are a little frustrated that it seems 723 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:17,760 to be focusing so far in this first film on the earlier stages 724 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,080 of Michael's life and his adult career, rather than getting 725 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,360 into, like, the later stuff that a lot of fans I think perceive 726 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,880 as being more important when it comes to clearing Michael's name 727 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,960 or giving people a different perspective on Michael. 728 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,800 But I actually think it would be sort of a disservice to Michael 729 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,120 to skip past this. Because as I was reflecting on a 730 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,440 couple of weeks ago and thinking really for the first time about 731 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,560 how much Jermaine's departure from the group may have 732 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,080 emotionally affected Michael and how hard that was, I feel like 733 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:50,040 it's very easy to not consider how hard this time frame was for 734 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,200 him. I mean, again, I've, I've read 735 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,680 out just a couple minutes ago here. 736 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,960 I read just a few minutes ago here, I read out the timeline of 737 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,360 all the things he was doing and producing in this very short 738 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,720 period of time when he was literally becoming an adult. 739 00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:06,080 I mean, he turned from a teenager into an adult during 740 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,760 that timeline that I relate of all the projects they did. 741 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:12,200 He was very, very young and doing that while dealing with 742 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,400 this level of stress and fear. It's just an epic amount of 743 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,520 stress for a young person to deal with. 744 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,760 I mean it's a lot of stress for anyone to deal with, let alone 745 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,000 someone as young as Michael, but I like how he uses this as an 746 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,160 opportunity to kind of move into why and how he ended up firing 747 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,200 his father as his manager, which is super interesting to me. 748 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,680 Now my understanding is that he fired his father as his manager, 749 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,960 so has Michael Jackson's manager, but that he was still 750 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,800 working with him through the Jacksons. 751 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,080 That's my understanding at this point, unless I'm 752 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,600 misunderstanding something and maybe it will be clarified 753 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,120 later. My understanding is that this 754 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,800 was just a decision about managing his own career and he 755 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,800 connects this in part to his father having a very different 756 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,520 vision creatively for what he wanted. 757 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,360 And Michael. This isn't actually during that 758 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,640 section, but right before it. He says I've always been a 759 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,000 dreamer in reference to the song from one of their previous 760 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,560 albums. I set goals for myself. 761 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,200 I look at things and try to imagine what is possible and 762 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,200 then hoped to pass those boundaries. 763 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,880 Something I love about Michael, as if there's any limit. 764 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,720 I love everything about Michael, but something I really love 765 00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,680 about Michael is how inspirational he is to me, as 766 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,880 his way of think was not just within the limitations of what 767 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,960 was possible. Most people, I think when they 768 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,960 set goals, they try to identify what is possible because they 769 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,280 want to make sure they're not setting themselves up for 770 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,320 failure, which is completely understandable and I think 771 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,800 probably smart psychologically for a lot of people. 772 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,840 But I kind of love that Michael always thought, how do I go 773 00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,520 beyond what is possible? So like, I think about this for 774 00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,120 myself, if I were to say I want to publish this type of book or 775 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,400 whatever, and that's what I think I can do, I would have to 776 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,200 then dream well beyond that if I wanted to model my own thinking 777 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,440 after how Michael did, you know? And this is something that I, 778 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,840 I've heard people talk about with him, like public figures 779 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,240 like Kobe Bryant and people like that who have talked about him 780 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,880 as an inspiration, but also people he worked with who were 781 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,960 inspired by him because there was no sense of limitation with 782 00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:28,280 anything he did in his mind. Like a limitation was the 783 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,880 boundary you had to break, which is is really a cool way to 784 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,560 approach creativity. It's a cool way, but kind of a 785 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,400 scary way at the same time. Anyway, back to him firing his 786 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,680 father, as he says, he says, did this change the relationship 787 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,440 between me and my father? I don't know if it did in his 788 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,680 heart, but it certainly didn't in mine. 789 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,520 And he says I was beginning to feel that I was working for him 790 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:53,880 rather than that he was working for me. 791 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,920 Now, it's a weird thing because it's his father, right? 792 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,320 And I would imagine no matter how good your relationship is 793 00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,640 with your father, it would probably be a very difficult 794 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:08,720 evolution to go from the fatherly role where you are the 795 00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,920 1 making decisions for your children and you're directing 796 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,840 them and getting them their deals and helping them to then 797 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,240 realizing you are now an employee of them and they have 798 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:21,720 gone beyond you. Now, I think that in most help 799 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,480 really healthy parenting situations, that is the goal. 800 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,040 And most parents want that for their children. 801 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:28,920 They want them to go on and go beyond them. 802 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,160 I want to believe that Joe Joseph wanted that for Michael, 803 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,200 that he wanted him to go beyond him. 804 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,760 He didn't want to control him. But I don't think that's the 805 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,560 reality. I think based on what Michael 806 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,720 has said here, what he felt was real. 807 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,640 And, you know, I can't help but think about something when I 808 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,760 think about this part. I know I've talked about this 809 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,880 before, and it is something I always feel some guilt about, as 810 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,840 well as, like, fear of your judgment as listeners. 811 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:00,000 But I know a lot of us in this fandom have at some point 812 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,920 listened to at least part of the Glenda tapes. 813 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,200 And the Glenda tapes, if you are not familiar, are tapes that 814 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,680 were ported without Michael's knowledge of Michael having 815 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,840 private phone conversations with family friends that he had. 816 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,200 There's this family he had befriended. 817 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,720 He befriended this husband, this wife. 818 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,200 They had some kids, I think, and they were people that he 819 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:24,720 befriended. And he would call them when he 820 00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:27,920 was on tour and talk to them and he would talk to both the 821 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,880 husband and the wife, but he talked most often to the wife, 822 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,280 Glenda, which is why they're called the Glenda Tapes. 823 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,960 And he's being recorded without his knowledge by that family. 824 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,440 And I don't need to get into all the reasons, but, you know, it's 825 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,600 a it's a betrayal and there's no way around that. 826 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,160 And as fans, I do feel it's a little bit of a betrayal to 827 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,440 listen to them. But I'm being honest with you 828 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,640 and telling you that I have. And that's what this part made 829 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,560 me think of because specifically, there is a part 830 00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:59,200 where he is talking to Glenda and he's talking about the abuse 831 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:00,880 he endured from his father as a child. 832 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,880 And he says that he specifically remembers his father telling 833 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,800 them that if they stop making music that he will quote, drop 834 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,000 them like a hot potato. And he says that like he 835 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,960 remembers that exact phrasing. So that's what this reminds me 836 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,960 of when he says I felt like I was working for him and not the 837 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,200 other way around. I get the impression that love 838 00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:26,960 and security in the family was kind of held like a like a 839 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,080 carrot, like a dangling carrot in front of him and his 840 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,840 brothers. And maybe part of what Michael 841 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,200 wanted independence from wasn't just the creative independence, 842 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:41,240 but the independence from the fallacy that he needed to 843 00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:45,760 perform a certain way in order to be loved and accepted by his 844 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,680 father. You know, maybe part of it is 845 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,360 like, well, I want to know if you actually love me. 846 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,640 You know, I mean, I'm sure it was very, very complicated for 847 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,400 him. And as he went through his life 848 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,480 much older than he is when we're reading this book right now, and 849 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,360 he's only, what, 29 at oldest, I believe he probably processed 850 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,440 this more as he got older and understood more of what that did 851 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,360 to him. I'm just guessing. 852 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,160 I'm doing some armchair psychology and I'm just 853 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,000 guessing. But you know what, that that's 854 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,320 got to be complicated. And so firing his dad, you know, 855 00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,080 it doesn't, it only gets a page here. 856 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:25,400 But that's partially the nature of this book. 857 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,760 Michael shares things, he gives a brief overview of things, but 858 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,040 he does not get deep. And unfortunately that's super 859 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,600 common with celebrity memoirs especially. 860 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,120 Makes me wish Michael had collaborated with a literary 861 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,280 writer and had written a more literary memoir where he would 862 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,520 get real deep. But it's OK that he didn't. 863 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,520 He's given us enough and this is something that we can learn from 864 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,680 either way. So Michael soon starts talking 865 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,640 about the beginning creation of Off the Wall, and he spends a 866 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,440 little bit of time here talking about his relationship with Paul 867 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,320 McCartney. And of course, they work 868 00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,280 together again in Thriller. So I'm sure we'll hear more 869 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,680 about it then as well, although I don't quite remember. 870 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,720 So we'll find out. But this is again, another 871 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:08,280 example, just like the one with Quincy earlier that I talked 872 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,720 about, where Michael is sort of correcting A narrative. 873 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,480 Now granted, again, these are not high stakes situations. 874 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,320 It doesn't really matter if Michael initiated their 875 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,440 connection to write songs together or not. 876 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:25,080 It doesn't really matter what the genesis of their 877 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,640 relationship was. But it is interesting to me that 878 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,320 Michael had this meeting with Paul and Paul offered him the 879 00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,640 song Girlfriend and said he had written it with him in mind. 880 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:39,440 Which is so interesting to me because what year would that 881 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,120 have been? You know, if this is say, 78 882 00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,720 when they're putting this album together and that was a few 883 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:48,080 years earlier, Michael would have maybe been like a like a 884 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,120 much younger teenager. He would have been like 17 885 00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,920 maybe. It's kind of cool to think that 886 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,880 like, Paul McCartney was aware of Michael and his voice and 887 00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,320 thinking about how to write a song for him. 888 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,080 And the song Girlfriend is kind of funny because it is by far 889 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,960 the most hated song on the Off the Wall album by the fans. 890 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,400 As with pretty much every Michael song, I still love it, 891 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,080 you know? Like, I never understand hate 892 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,560 for Michael songs to be honest. And I'm not, I'm not trying to 893 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,400 be like sycophantic, I just, I genuinely don't understand how 894 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,880 anyone can hate a Michael Jackson song. 895 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,520 Maybe I'm just an actual freak of nature when it comes to how I 896 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,040 react to him. I have yet to hear a bad Michael 897 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,600 Jackson song. I have songs I love more than 898 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:34,040 others, but his voice and his energy and just like, I just 899 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,840 feel just so much emanates from his music. 900 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,440 I can't really imagine just being like, Oh yeah, that song 901 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,120 sucks next. Like, no, no, I don't feel that 902 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,080 way at all. Girlfriend is an interesting 903 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,640 song though, because the whole premise of it being that you're 904 00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,960 essentially having an affair with some girl that you're 905 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,440 referring to was your girlfriend, and you're 906 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,280 threatening to tell her boyfriend about it. 907 00:50:56,640 --> 00:51:01,080 Yeah, it's told in this, like, very cutesy, kind of sweet, 908 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,360 almost like a bubble gum sugar sweet sound. 909 00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:06,320 And it's just so funny in that way. 910 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:08,720 So I actually think it's a really fun song. 911 00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:11,200 I think it's really cute. I don't think it's the Best Song 912 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,960 by any means, but it's a song I really think is adorable and I 913 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,480 like it a lot. Michael has little laughs and 914 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,520 giggles and little little adorable mannerisms in it that 915 00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,800 just make it a really fun song to listen to. 916 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,520 So revisit Girlfriend if you are one of those people who hate it, 917 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,360 or if you want, tell me how wrong I am and tell me how 918 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,640 terrible it is, because I have yet to have anyone really give a 919 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,400 good argument for why they think it sucks. 920 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,000 So anyway, I just think it's interesting that, again, he's 921 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,200 saying Paul McCartney always tells the story about how I try 922 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,160 to work with him first, but that's not really what happened. 923 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,520 And I just kind of wonder about that. 924 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,560 And in both cases, these are people trying to make it seem 925 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,720 like Michael was like desperate to work with them instead. 926 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,880 Again, I know it's not that big of a deal. 927 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,360 And it may, it maybe isn't that serious. 928 00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:01,000 It just reminds me, though, of how frequent this is a theme in 929 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,600 Michael's life. Do you know what I mean? 930 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:03,920 That's all I'm trying to get across. 931 00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:05,320 I'm going to move on. I'm going to leave it alone. 932 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,680 But that's something I'm I can't help but think about. 933 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,240 And then the only other songs we really talk about from Off the 934 00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:15,200 Wall in this section are Rock with You and some of the other 935 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,720 Rod Temperton songs. So I mean, there's not much else 936 00:52:18,720 --> 00:52:21,760 that I have to add at this point about the rest of this section. 937 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:26,840 I am personally really excited to read the rest of Chapter 4 to 938 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,480 get more into Off the Wall and then of course, get more into 939 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,480 Thriller too. I'm really looking forward to 940 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,240 it. Off the Wall is one of these 941 00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:39,080 albums that depending on which fans you're talking to, they'll 942 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,000 they'll either say that Michael's album Trinity is Off 943 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,800 the Wall, Thriller or Bad, or they'll say Thriller, Bad and 944 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,480 Dangerous. I think that's really neglectful 945 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,360 of the albums that came after, of course, which like, I always 946 00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,080 think of history as Michael's kind of magnum opus in a way. 947 00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,600 It's just so profound and so deep, but it doesn't get 948 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,000 included as often as they think it should in those best 949 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,520 conversations. But this is part of why I think 950 00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,560 it's irrelevant to actually try to rank Michael's artistry. 951 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,720 Probably. To be fair, it's irrelevant to 952 00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:13,880 rank anyone's artistry. But I mean, for me, everyone is 953 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,680 beneath Michael and that's just the way it is. 954 00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:20,320 But yeah, Off the Wall is one of those albums that is either so 955 00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,320 appreciated by certain fans that they they diminish other albums 956 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,840 that come after it, or it is not appreciated hardly at all. 957 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,960 There's also a problem where people will often give Quincy so 958 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,120 much credit for Off the Wall, Thriller and bad. 959 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,400 And as we go through and continue reading about Quincy's 960 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,520 relationship to Michael and the way things evolved through the 961 00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,280 each of these albums, I think we should talk about that and and 962 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:47,760 try to identify like, how true does that feel based on how 963 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,080 Michael is presenting it? I mean, I don't think it's true 964 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,520 at all, but I want to hear as we're analyzing and talking 965 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,200 about Michael's words, something we have to keep in mind also is 966 00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,880 that Michael has pointed out some little corrections here and 967 00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:03,680 there with some of these people he worked with, but Michael in 968 00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:05,600 general was not a person that did that. 969 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,280 Michael has actually talked about this before and how in his 970 00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,680 spirit, in his heart, he actually didn't like to correct 971 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,800 people. There's actually some evidence 972 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,840 of Michael struggling a lot when it came to holding people 973 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,800 accountable because he didn't want to hurt or embarrass them. 974 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:27,800 And he talked at one point about how he would hear stories that 975 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,520 someone would tell him about like, oh, this person said that 976 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:33,320 you they knew you or this person said they had hung out with you 977 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,320 and done this or whatever. And Michael didn't correct the 978 00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,640 person telling him because he didn't want to embarrass the 979 00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:40,920 person who was lying. I mean, that's the kind of 980 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:45,080 person Michael was. So when we interpret Michael's 981 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:48,440 storytelling, not only do we have to look past somehow his 982 00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:51,840 desire for privacy and and keep that in mind when we're 983 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:55,640 assessing what he's telling us, we also have to think about who 984 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,480 he was as a person who was someone who really didn't want 985 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,200 to hurt anybody. He really didn't want to 986 00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,880 embarrass anybody. He didn't really want drama. 987 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,920 He didn't want any kind of unsettled stuff in the news. 988 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,960 He didn't want to make anybody look foolish. 989 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:11,200 I'm not saying the man was perfect. 990 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:13,880 I'm just saying he was a very kind of person. 991 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,400 And so when he talks about who did what on albums and he talks 992 00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,880 about how he actually met a person or he talks about 993 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,240 whatever, he's also doing that in the kindest way he likely can 994 00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:29,440 because that is who Michael was. So again, this is another 995 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,800 barrier to if there is, and I don't know if I believe there 996 00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,960 is, but if there is a like capital T truth, you know, an 997 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,320 objective truth about what happened, we may never really 998 00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,880 completely get that from Michael only because he holds himself 999 00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,360 back from it in some cases, not because I believe he's 1000 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,280 dishonest. Does that make sense? 1001 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,120 Anyway, just something to think about as we close here and we 1002 00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:53,920 continue to move along into moonwalk. 1003 00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:57,040 There's so many ways that we can psychologically analyze this 1004 00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:58,240 man. And I've been doing it now for 1005 00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:01,760 like a year and a half and I can't seem to stop and it's not 1006 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,600 going to end anytime soon. So with that said, for now at 1007 00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,480 least, we will wrap and close and I will look forward to 1008 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:14,560 meeting with you all again next week to finish out Chapter 4 and 1009 00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:19,160 continue moving through Michael's life story in Mood 1010 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,320 Walk. I hope you all have a wonderful, 1011 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,800 wonderful week and weekend and we will talk again very, very 1012 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,680 soon. Take care.