1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,400 Well, hello friends. Thank you so much for joining me 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:11,720 for another episode of Reading Michael Jackson. 3 00:00:12,120 --> 00:00:15,840 I am your host, Lena. And once again, I am so happy to 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,160 be here with you to continue this season of Reading Moonwalk. 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,320 Today we're going to be starting Chapter 3, and I'm excited. 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,080 I think there's a lot of fresh stuff we'll be getting into that 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,720 I'm really looking forward to discussing with you. 8 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,720 Before we kick off our reading, though, there's just a couple of 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,240 things I want to mention. So I am recording this the first 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,080 week of January. This week the first 3 episodes 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,320 of this season dropped altogether and I have to say 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,240 I've been really pleased with the response so far. 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,880 I've heard from a couple of different people in various 14 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,320 formats that have told me they are really enjoying it and it's 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,000 working for them. Which honestly, I'm thrilled to 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,280 hear because you know, there's a, there's a learning curve to 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,520 some degree about how to do a much larger book like this where 18 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,840 the readings are much longer and the discussions are a little bit 19 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,400 more personal about Michael. And you know, in a, in a sense, 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,960 I feel a little bit vulnerable because whereas the dancing the 21 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:22,000 Dream book, it was all my interpretations and whatnot, 22 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,960 here it's like I'm commenting on Michael's biographical story, 23 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:29,800 the way he's telling his story, some of my opinions about 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,240 circumstances in his life. And those are things that most 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,720 Michael Jackson fans have a pretty strong understanding of 26 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,480 already. So, you know, it's a little bit 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,520 scary to me. Like, what will you all think of 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,880 the things I'm saying? And of course, the fact that I 29 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,440 get pretty emotional sometimes. I was listening back to Episode 30 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,880 3 this week when it first came out, and I was like, Oh my God, 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,280 did I have to cry that much? But, you know, what can I do? 32 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,280 I'm trying to be authentic people. 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,040 What can I do? That is all to say, I am very 34 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,560 grateful for the feedback. And if you would like to give me 35 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,680 more feedback or if you've never reached out and want to chat a 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,400 bit or share anything with me, please feel free to. 37 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,360 I am very receptive and interested in hearing from 38 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,480 people and hearing about your experience with the podcast or 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:14,960 with the book or even with Michael. 40 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,480 So if you'd like to reach out directly to me if we're not 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,480 connected in some other way on social media, feel free to 42 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,400 e-mail me directly at readingmichaeljackson@yahoo.com. 43 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,000 Along those lines, I also want to make a little request. 44 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,440 This is something that a true content creator with true 45 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,520 marketing savvy would do every single episode. 46 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,720 But I never do because I'm here just to really talk to you. 47 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,680 But I do want to ask you to please consider if you have not 48 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,320 yet, depending on where you listen to this podcast, I would 49 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,640 love to see you interact with it. 50 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,960 So hit the subscribe button or the follow button or the like 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,320 button, again, depending on where you're interacting. 52 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,600 Specifically, if you could on Spotify, rate the show. 53 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,680 If you are enjoying it, especially if you are enjoying 54 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,000 it, rate the show. Same thing on Apple Podcasts. 55 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,680 If you could rate and even consider writing a review of the 56 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,280 show. All of these things are what 57 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:26,600 helped push the show into the algorithm for other people. 58 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,160 So a show that doesn't have any reviews or any ratings is not 59 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,040 going to be recommended as often. 60 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,360 Now I've been very grateful to have ratings and rankings and 61 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,440 things on the various platforms, but I could definitely use more. 62 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,880 And I want to be very clear, I absolutely do not make money off 63 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,320 of this podcast and I have 0 intentions of trying to. 64 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,360 My main goal of this podcast, if it's not clear, is to explore 65 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,680 and provide a deeper understanding of Michael Jackson 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,600 based on the things that he wrote and shared in his own 67 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,200 lifetime. It is ultimately a podcast 68 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,160 intended to offer deep compassion toward Michael, time, 69 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,680 space, and understanding of trying to learn more about him 70 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,600 and make sense of his very complicated life. 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,160 So it is entirely for the benefit in my opinion, and I 72 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,320 hope that you agree if you are here for the benefit of Michael 73 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,200 and his legacy for people to listen to and share this 74 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,160 podcast. So please do help me push it 75 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,800 into the algorithm for more people and share it with your 76 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,640 Michael Jackson friends and fellow fans or anyone you think 77 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,120 might be interested in a kind of deep dive into any kind of 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:43,920 writing. I would love to connect with 79 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,800 them. Finally, the last thing I'll say 80 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,000 before we get into this week's reading is last week in the end 81 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,640 of Chapter 2, Michael briefly touched upon how much he enjoyed 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,080 being a part of the Jackson 5 animated series. 83 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,040 Now the animated series. I don't think I really touched 84 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,760 on this much last week. I can't recall so if I did 85 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,680 sorry, but the animated series Michael did not do the voice 86 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,760 for. He just was, along with his 87 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:16,000 brothers, essentially a cartoon character and he really enjoyed 88 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,880 it as a kid. As any child would. 89 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:19,520 Right? Like who would not think it was 90 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,200 the coolest thing in the world to be a cartoon character when 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,360 you're like 9 or 10 years old? I know I would. 92 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,240 I would still appreciate it to be honest. 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,080 Anyway, for Christmas my husband bought me a DVD of the complete 94 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,160 series. I didn't even know this existed. 95 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:38,600 So how this man found it? God bless, but I recently have 96 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,400 been watching it and I have to say it is so fun. 97 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,320 It is a ridiculous show. It is very much a cartoon, but 98 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:51,200 very very fun. There was an episode where the 99 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Jackson Five were supposed to perform for the military, and 100 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,280 somehow Michael and Marlon were mistaken for new recruits and 101 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:01,840 they were being sent to war and the rest of the Jacksons had to 102 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:05,680 save them. There's another episode where 103 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,200 they were supposed to perform at a concert in the middle of the 104 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,120 forest called Pine Stock, which was definitely an homage to 105 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,680 Woodstock. And in that the person running 106 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,640 the concert was getting prepared to cut down all the trees in 107 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,360 order to create a venue. And the Jackson Five had to stop 108 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,320 him to save the animal environment and the animal 109 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,440 homes. Like it's very, very cute. 110 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,280 One thing I think is adorable about it is that Michael's pets 111 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,600 are characters. So like his snake when he was a 112 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:39,920 kid, Rosie the crusher is a character. 113 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,840 He also has in the show these little mice named Ray and 114 00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:46,280 Charles. And they always are in his 115 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:50,200 pocket and they always come out and Michael says, well, Ray and 116 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,800 Charles think this or whatever. It's just like even in the show, 117 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,760 like they, I think they capture Michael's unique nature and it's 118 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,880 really, really cute and very endearing. 119 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,480 So I just want to mention that if you have never checked it 120 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,360 out, find a way to. It might even be on YouTube. 121 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,240 I never even looked. So definitely check it out 122 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:09,840 though. It's very fun. 123 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,680 All right, so now without any further ado, let's get into this 124 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,800 week's episode. Officially, we are kicking off 125 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,760 Chapter 3 this week. So as a reminder, we finished 126 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,160 Chapter 2 last week, which was primarily about the Jacksons and 127 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,440 the Jackson 5 getting very involved in Motown. 128 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,800 They started touring, Michael's getting a little bit older. 129 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,880 He offered some commentary about his appearance and some of his 130 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,160 discomfort with himself. So now we are leading into 131 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,840 Chapter 3. It is called Dancing Machine. 132 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,120 So presumably we will be getting into some of the later years of 133 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,960 the Jackson 5 here and see where we end up. 134 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,960 With that in mind, So if you are following along in the book, I 135 00:07:54,960 --> 00:08:00,560 will be reading from pages one O 3 to the top of page 117. 136 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,240 I also want to apologize if these numbers are ever off on 137 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,200 your copy. A friend of mine, based in 138 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,120 Europe, actually I think she has the Polish edition, recently 139 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,120 informed me that her copy looks different from mine, and it 140 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,720 didn't even occur to me that the international editions may not 141 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,600 look exactly the same as the American editions. 142 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,720 It is also possible that a reprinting after Michael's 143 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,120 death, which is what I have, looks different from an original 144 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:30,480 printing. So again, if there's any 145 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,520 confusion there, I do apologize, but I'm doing my best. 146 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,880 So now I invite you to relax, get comfortable, and get cozy, 147 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:45,840 and join me for this reading of the start of chapter 3 of 148 00:08:46,280 --> 00:09:01,080 Moonwalk. The media write weird stuff 149 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,000 about me all the time. The distortion of the truth 150 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,120 bothers me. I usually don't read a lot of 151 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:10,880 what is printed, although I often hear about it. 152 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,320 I don't understand why they feel the need to make up things about 153 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,400 me. I suppose if there's nothing 154 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,360 scandalous to report, it's necessary to make things 155 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,640 interesting. I take some small pride in 156 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,160 thinking that I've come out pretty well, all things 157 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,480 considered. A lot of children in the 158 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,440 entertainment business ended up doing drugs and destroying 159 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,760 themselves. Frankie Lyman, Bobby Driscoll, 160 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,080 any of a number of child stars. And I can understand they're 161 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,240 turning to drugs, considering the enormous stresses put on 162 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,400 them at a young age. It's a difficult life. 163 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,120 Very few managed to maintain any semblance of a normal childhood. 164 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,080 I myself have never even tried drugs. 165 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,040 No marijuana, no cocaine, nothing. 166 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,800 I mean, I haven't even tried these things. 167 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,920 Forget it. This isn't to say we were never 168 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,600 tempted. We were musicians doing business 169 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,680 during an era when drug use was common. 170 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,200 I don't mean to be judge mental, it's not even a moral issue for 171 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,720 me, but I've seen drugs destroy too many lives to think they're 172 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,200 anything to fool with. I'm certainly no Angel, and I 173 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,840 may have my own bad habits, but drugs aren't among them. 174 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,120 By the time Ben came out, we knew that we were going to go 175 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,520 around the world. American soul music had become 176 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,680 as popular in other countries as blue jeans and hamburgers. 177 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,400 We were invited to become a part of that big world, and in 1972 178 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:46,080 we began our first overseas tour with a visit to England. 179 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,440 Though we never been there before or appeared on British 180 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,600 television, people knew all the words to our songs. 181 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,280 They even had wide scarves with our pictures on them and Jackson 182 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,400 5 written in big, broad letters. The theaters were smaller than 183 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,480 the ones we were used to playing in the United States, but the 184 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,480 enthusiasm from the crowds was very gratifying as we'd finish 185 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,920 each song. They didn't scream during the 186 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,600 songs the way crowds did back home, so people over there could 187 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,040 actually tell how good Tito was getting at the guitar because 188 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,120 they can never hear him. We took Randy along because we 189 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,080 wanted to give him the experience and allow him to see 190 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,880 what was going on. He wasn't officially a part of 191 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,600 our act, but stayed in the background with bongos. 192 00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:34,960 He had his own Jackson 5 outfit, so when we introduced him, 193 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,160 people cheered. The next time we came back, 194 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,120 Randy would be a part of the group. 195 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,000 I had been the bongo player before Randy and Marlon had 196 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,920 played them before me. So to become an almost tradition 197 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,960 to break the new guy in on those crazy little drums. 198 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,000 We had three years of hits behind us when we toured Europe 199 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,200 that first time, so there was enough to please both the kids 200 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,520 who followed our music and the Queen of England. 201 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,240 And we met at a royal command performance that was very 202 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,280 exciting for us. I had seen photographs of other 203 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,160 groups like The Beatles meeting the Queen after command 204 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,200 performances, but I never dreamed we'd get the chance to 205 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,360 play for her. England was our jumping off 206 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,400 point and it was different from any place we'd been before. 207 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,200 But the farther we travelled, the more exotic the world 208 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,800 looked. We saw the great museums of 209 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,760 Paris in the beautiful mountains of Switzerland. 210 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,240 Europe was an education in the roots of Western culture and in 211 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,480 a way, a preparation for visiting Eastern cultures that 212 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,520 were more spiritual. I was very impressed that the 213 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,320 people there didn't value material things as much as they 214 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,880 did animals in nature. For instance, China and Japan 215 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,040 were places that helped me grow because these countries made me 216 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,600 understand there was more to life than the things you could 217 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,400 hold in your hand or see with your eyes. 218 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,480 And in all of these countries the people had heard of us and 219 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:06,240 liked our music. Australia and New Zealand, our 220 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,640 next stops were English speaking, but we met people who 221 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,720 were still living in tribes in the Outback. 222 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,360 They greeted us as brothers, even though they didn't speak 223 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,880 our language. If I'd ever needed proof that 224 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,240 all men could be brothers, I certainly had it during that 225 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,480 tour. And then there was Africa. 226 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,920 We had read up on Africa because our tutor, Miss Fine, had 227 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,280 prepared special lessons on the customs and history of each 228 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,080 country we visited. We didn't get to see the 229 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,520 prettier parts of Africa, but the ocean and the shore and the 230 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,800 people were unbelievably beautiful. 231 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,400 Near the coast where we were, we went to a game reserve one day 232 00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:48,600 and observed animals roaming wild. 233 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,360 The music was eye opening too. The rhythms were phenomenal. 234 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,120 When we first came off the plane it was dawn and there was a long 235 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,640 line of Africans dancing in their native costumes with drums 236 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,880 and shakers. They were dancing all around, 237 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,640 welcoming us. They were really into it. 238 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,760 Boy, it was something. What a perfect way to welcome us 239 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,480 to Africa. I'll never forget that. 240 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,000 And the craftspeople in the marketplace were incredible. 241 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,440 People were making things as we watched and selling other 242 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,160 things. I remember one man who made 243 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,520 beautiful wooden carvings. He'd ask you what you wanted and 244 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,560 you'd say a man's face and he'd take a piece from a tree trunk, 245 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,880 slice it and create this remarkable face. 246 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,120 You could watch him do it right before your eyes. 247 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,360 I'd just sit there and watch people step up to ask him to 248 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,240 make something for them, and he'd do this whole thing over 249 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,480 and over. It was our visit to Senegal that 250 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,520 made us realize how fortunate we were and how African heritage 251 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,960 had helped to make us what we were. 252 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,840 We visited an old abandoned slave camp at Gore Island and we 253 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,640 were so moved. The African people had given us 254 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,760 gifts of courage and endurance that we couldn't hope to repay. 255 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,120 I guess if Motown could have had his age the way they wanted us 256 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,960 to, they would have wanted Jackie to stay the age he was 257 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,960 when he became a headline act and have each of us catch up 258 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,000 with him. Although I think they'd have 259 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,320 wanted to keep me a year or so younger so I could still be a 260 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,080 child star. That may sound nonsensical, but 261 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,760 it really wasn't much more far fetched than the way they were 262 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,680 continuing to mold us, keeping us from being a real group with 263 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,840 its own internal direction and ideas. 264 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,600 We were growing up and we were expanding creatively. 265 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,480 We had so many ideas we wanted to try out, but they were 266 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,360 convinced that we shouldn't fool with a successful formula. 267 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,560 At least they didn't drop us as soon as my voice changed as some 268 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,600 said they might. It got to the point that it 269 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,920 seemed there were more guys in the studio than there were on 270 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,000 the studio floor at any given time. 271 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,600 They all seemed to be bumping into another, giving advice and 272 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,080 monitoring our music. Our loyal fans stuck with us on 273 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,520 records like I Am Love and Skywriter. 274 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,120 These songs were musically ambitious pop recordings with 275 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:22,240 sophisticated string arrangements. 276 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,600 But they weren't right for us. Sure, we couldn't do ABC all our 277 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,480 lives. That was the last thing we 278 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,600 wanted. But even the older fans thought 279 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,000 ABC had more going for it, and that was hard for us to live 280 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,880 with during the mid 70s. We were in danger of becoming an 281 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,920 oldies act, and I wasn't even 18 yet when Jermaine married Hazel 282 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,560 Gordy, our boss's daughter, people were winking at us, 283 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,680 saying that we'd always be looked after. 284 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,160 Indeed, when Get It Together came out in 1973, it got the 285 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,320 same treatment from Barry that I Want You Back I've Gotten. 286 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,880 It was our biggest hit in two years that you could have said 287 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,359 it was more like a bone transplant than the spanking 288 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,240 little baby that our first hit was. 289 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,760 Nevertheless, Get It Together had good, tough low harmony, a 290 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,200 sharper Wawa guitar, and strings that buzzed like fireflies. 291 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,319 Radio stations liked it, but not as much as the new dance clubs 292 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:24,880 called Discos did. Motown picked up on this and 293 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,359 brought back Hal Davis from the Corporation days to really put 294 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:32,680 the juice into Dancing Machine. The Jackson Five were no longer 295 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,760 just the backup group for the One O 1 Strings or whatever. 296 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,040 Motown had come a long way from the early days where you could 297 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,600 find good studio musicians supplementing their session pay 298 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:49,200 with bowling alley gigs. A new sophistication turned up 299 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,840 in the music on Dancing Machine. The song had the best horn part 300 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,080 we'd worked with yet, and a bubble machine in the break made 301 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,200 out of synthesizer noise that kept the song from going 302 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,920 completely out of style. Disco music had its detractors, 303 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,240 but to us it seemed our rite of passage into the adult world. 304 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,520 I loved Dancing Machine, loved the groove and the feel of that 305 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,840 song. When it came out in 1974, I was 306 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,360 determined to find a dance move that would enhance the song and 307 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:24,560 make it more exciting to perform and I hoped, more exciting to 308 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,280 watch. So when we sang Dancing Machine 309 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,200 on Soul Train, I did a street style dance move called The 310 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,240 Robot. That performance was a lesson to 311 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:39,160 me in the power of television. Overnight, Dancing Machine rose 312 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,760 to the top of the charts and within a few days it seemed that 313 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,400 every kid in the United States was doing the robot. 314 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,080 I had never seen anything like it. 315 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,080 Motown and the Jackson Five could agree on one thing. 316 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,040 As our act grew, our audience should too. 317 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,160 We had two recruits coming up. Randy had already toured with 318 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,960 us, and Janet was showing talent with her singing and dancing 319 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,640 lessons. We couldn't put Randy and Janet 320 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,280 into our old lineup any more than we could put square pegs 321 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,760 into round holes. I wouldn't insult their 322 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,800 considerable talent by saying that show business was so in 323 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,360 their blood that they just took their places automatically, as 324 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:18,880 if we'd reserved a spot for them. 325 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,480 They worked hard and earned their places in the group. 326 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,600 They didn't join us because they ate meals with us and shared our 327 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,880 old toys. If you just went by blood, I'd 328 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,480 have as much crane operator in me as Singer. 329 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,160 You can't measure these things. Dad worked us hard and kept 330 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,240 certain goals insight while spinning dreams at night. 331 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,800 Just as Disco might have seemed like a very unlikely place for a 332 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,680 kids group to become a grown up act, Las Vegas with the Showcase 333 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:52,760 Theaters wasn't exactly the family atmosphere that Motown 334 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,400 had originally groomed us for, but we decided to play there 335 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,520 just the same. There wasn't much to do in Las 336 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,680 Vegas if you didn't gamble, but we thought of the theaters in 337 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,440 the city as just big clubs with the club hours and clientele of 338 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,640 our Gary and Southside Chicago days. 339 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:14,120 Except for the tourists, tourist crowds were a good thing for us 340 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:18,560 since they knew our old hits and would watch our skits and listen 341 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,840 to new songs without getting restless. 342 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,480 It was great to see the delight on their faces when little Janet 343 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,480 came out in her Mae W costume for a number or two. 344 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:34,600 We had performed skits before in a 1971 TV special called Going 345 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,400 Back to Indiana, which celebrated our Gary homecoming 346 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,720 the first time we all decided to return. 347 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,880 Our records had become hits all over the world since we'd seen 348 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,000 our hometown at last. It was even more fun to do skits 349 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,080 with nine of us instead of just five, plus whatever guests 350 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,000 happened to appear with us. Our expanded lineup was a dream 351 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,520 come true for Dad. Looking back, I know the Las 352 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,520 Vegas shows were an experience I'll never recapture. 353 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,840 We didn't have the high pressure and concert crowd wanting all 354 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,360 our hit songs and nothing more. We were temporarily freed from 355 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:14,400 the pressures of having to keep up with what everyone else was 356 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,120 doing. We had a ballad or two in every 357 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:21,720 show to break in my new voice at 15, I was having to think about 358 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,800 things like that. There were people from CBS 359 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,080 television at our Las Vegas shows, and they approached us 360 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,160 about doing a variety show for the upcoming summer. 361 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,560 We were very interested and pleased. 362 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,720 We were being recognized as more than just a Motown group. 363 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,640 Over time, distinction would not be lost on us. 364 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:45,560 Because we had creative control over our Las Vegas review, it 365 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,760 was harder for us to return to our lack of freedom in recording 366 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,640 and writing music once we got back to Los Angeles. 367 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,560 We'd always intended to grow and develop in the musical field. 368 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,800 That was our bread and butter, and we felt we were being held 369 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,320 back. Sometimes I felt we were being 370 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,080 treated as if we still lived in Berry Gordy's house. 371 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,360 And with Jermaine now a son-in-law, our frustration was 372 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,920 only heightened. By the time we began putting our 373 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,720 own act together, there were signs that other Motown 374 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,200 institutions were changing. Marvin Gaye took charge of his 375 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,640 own music and produced his masterpiece album, What's Going 376 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,120 On. Stevie Wonder was learning more 377 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:26,920 about electronic keyboards than the experienced studio hired 378 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,240 guns. They were coming to him for 379 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,000 advice. One of our last great memories 380 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,080 from our Motown days is of Stevie leading us in chanting to 381 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,400 back up his tough, controversial song You Haven't Done Nothing. 382 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,160 Though Stevie and Marvin were still in the Motown camp. 383 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,520 They had fought for and won the right to make their own records 384 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,280 and even to publish their own songs. 385 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,280 Motown hadn't even budged with us. 386 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,760 To them, we were still kids, even if they weren't dressing us 387 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,480 and protecting us any longer. Our problems with Motown began 388 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,520 around 1974, when we told them in no uncertain terms that we 389 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,960 wanted to write and produce our own songs. 390 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,240 Basically, we didn't like the way our music sounded at the 391 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,000 time. We had a strong competitive 392 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,640 urge, and we felt we were in danger of being eclipsed by 393 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,280 other groups who are creating a more contemporary sound, Motown 394 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,560 said. No, you can't write your own 395 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,440 songs. You've got to have songwriters 396 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,120 and producers. They not only refused to grant 397 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,000 our requests, they told us it was taboo to even mention that 398 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,680 we wanted to do our own music. I really got discouraged and 399 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,920 began to seriously dislike all the material Motown was feeding 400 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,440 us. Eventually, I became so 401 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,000 disappointed and upset that I wanted to leave Motown behind. 402 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:52,520 When I feel that something is not right, I have to speak up. 403 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,760 I know most people don't think of me as tough or strong willed, 404 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,440 but that's just because they don't know me. 405 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,200 Eventually my brothers and I reached a point with Motown 406 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,760 where we were miserable, but no one was saying anything. 407 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,760 My brothers didn't say anything, my father didn't say anything. 408 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,640 So it was up to me to arrange a meeting with Berry Gordy and 409 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,160 talk to him. I was the one who had to say 410 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,440 that we, the Jackson Five, were going to leave Motown. 411 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,880 I went over to see him face to face and it was one of the most 412 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,960 difficult things I have ever done. 413 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,800 If I had been the only one of us who was unhappy, I might have 414 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,560 kept my mouth shut. But there had been so much talk 415 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,360 at home about how unhappy we all were that I went in and talked 416 00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:46,520 to him and told him how we felt. I told him I was unhappy. 417 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,560 Remember, I love Barry Gordy. I think he's a genius, a 418 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,720 brilliant man who's one of the giants of the music business. 419 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,160 I have nothing but respect for him. 420 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:03,320 But that day I was a lion. I complained that we weren't 421 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,080 allowed any freedom to write songs and produce. 422 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,920 He told me that he still thought we needed outside producers to 423 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,240 make hit records. But I knew better. 424 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,360 Barry was talking out of anger. That was a difficult meeting, 425 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:21,000 but we're friends again and he's still like a father to me, very 426 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,040 proud of me and happy about my success. 427 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:27,480 No matter what, I will always love Barry because he taught me 428 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,320 some of the most valuable things I've learned in my life. 429 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,600 He's the man who told the Jackson 5 they would become a 430 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,400 part of history, and that is exactly what happened. 431 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,400 Motown has done so much for so many people over the years. 432 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,960 I feel we're fortunate to have been one of the groups very 433 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,920 personally introduced to the public and I owe enormous thanks 434 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,680 to this man. My life would have been very 435 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,960 different without him. We all felt that Motown started 436 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,600 us supporting our professional careers. 437 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,400 We all felt our roots were there and we all wished we could stay. 438 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,040 We were grateful for everything they had done for us. 439 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,960 But change is inevitable. I'm a person of the present and 440 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,480 I have to ask, how are things going now? 441 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,240 What's happening now? What's going to happen in the 442 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,040 future that could affect what has happened in the past? 443 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,120 It is important for artists always to maintain control of 444 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,360 their lives and work. There's been a big problem in 445 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,520 the past with artists being taken advantage of. 446 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,560 I've learned that a person can prevent that from happening by 447 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,920 standing up for what he or she believes is right without 448 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,840 concern for the consequences. We could have stayed with 449 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,520 Motown, but if we had, we'd probably be an oldies act. 450 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,640 I knew it was time for change, so we followed our instincts and 451 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,920 we won when we decided to try a fresh start with another label. 452 00:26:54,560 --> 00:27:09,080 Epic, OK. OK, so we are going to leave it 453 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,760 there with this start of Chapter 3 of Moonwalk. 454 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,200 Wow. So this section had a lot of 455 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:23,160 really important movement in it. You know, Michael details the 456 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,920 success with Motown, but also some of the pitfalls and the 457 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,080 challenges that ultimately led to them leaving Motown. 458 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,760 So I think there's a lot to talk about and touch upon here. 459 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,840 We will do what we've been doing, revisiting the early 460 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,520 moments in this section and working our way back through. 461 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:47,880 So starting on page one O 3 and the first line of chapter 3. 462 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,680 Wow. The media write weird stuff 463 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,480 about me all the time. The distortion of the truth 464 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,960 bothers me. I usually don't read a lot of 465 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,760 what is printed, although I often hear about it. 466 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,240 I don't understand why they feel the need to make up things about 467 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,240 me. I suppose if there's nothing 468 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,760 scandalous to report, it's necessary to make things 469 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,200 interesting. So I feel like, you know, in the 470 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,440 Michael Jackson world, the Michael Jackson fandom, this 471 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,200 idea of the media and the media's disregard for the truth 472 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,920 when it comes to Michael Jackson, as well as all out 473 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,600 fabrications of truth when it comes to Michael Jackson is 474 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,280 something we're all too familiar with. 475 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,360 It's crazy in a way to me to think that this was published in 476 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:43,800 1988 when Michael, I mean, he was really at that point, in a 477 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,080 way, just seeing the beginning of the media really turning on 478 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,920 him. One of my favorite things to do 479 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,680 is a Michael Jackson fan and somebody who really likes to 480 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,560 just kind of study the culture around him and the cultural 481 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,520 response to him, in part because my own response to him is just 482 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,960 so shocking and magical and unexpected. 483 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,360 I really like to understand how the world around him viewed him 484 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,600 throughout his life and how that was portrayed in the media from 485 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,160 his lifetime. So one of my favorite things to 486 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:20,720 do as a Michael Jackson fan is to look at media from the 1980s, 487 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,640 especially because I'm really curious about the rhetoric 488 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,840 around Michael during his absolute explosion of fame in 489 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,960 the 80s. Obviously, we're talking right 490 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,960 now about the 1970s with the Jackson 5, but just bear with me 491 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,760 for a second, OK? Something I have noticed, and 492 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,080 we'll certainly talk about this more later as we progress 493 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,360 throughout the story of Michael's life, but something 494 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,200 I've noticed is that when you are looking for like how did the 495 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,520 media respond to Michael, it really obviously started to 496 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,280 massively explode on a global scale around the time of 497 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,160 Thriller, even more than like during Off the Wall it was, 498 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,040 which was hugely successful. Thriller is when everything 499 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,880 really exploded. But of course, we all know that, 500 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,240 right? I had assumed that that would 501 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,040 mean that all of the media coverage of Michael from the 502 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,320 Thriller era would be really positive. 503 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,200 And frankly, that's not always the case. 504 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,160 I have found. Now, you might find that the 505 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,360 articles about him and things and the pictorials and things 506 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,920 are, are portraying him in a flattering way, or they are 507 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,880 saying, you know, complimentary things about his performance or 508 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,840 his talent. But there's this undercurrent of 509 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,600 presenting him as weird, which definitely, I don't want to say 510 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,440 it began in the 1980s because it's possible that it began. 511 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,640 I mean, I've heard of horrible, you know, stories and things 512 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,640 about him and the way the media talked about him even in the 70s 513 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,360 at times. But I'm talking about in mass 514 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:57,080 where the the discourse around him started to shift. 515 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,440 And that shift actually started during the thriller era, 516 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,240 especially like the latter half of the thriller era. 517 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,680 I mean, I'm just talking about magazine articles like the Time 518 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,680 cover story that he had where the Andy Warhol style portrait 519 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,280 of him is on the cover. You know, there's just, there's 520 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,840 these slight underhanded remarks about him, about how he's like 521 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,400 an alien, but not said in a flattering way, you know, said 522 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,480 in like a, oh, this bizarre creature that we're looking at 523 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,600 in this kind of analytical, judgmental lens. 524 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,600 It's, it's very hard to explain unless I read exact quotations. 525 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,840 But I think that most Michael Jackson fans would certainly 526 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,200 recognize what I'm talking about. 527 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,760 And then, you know, we go into the bad era and it gets 528 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,480 significantly worse with the changes in Michael's aesthetic 529 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,000 and his appearance and everything. 530 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,800 And it just gets more and more cruel toward him. 531 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,040 But The thing is, is even by this point that Michael was 532 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,280 writing this, it was nowhere near what we all know it would 533 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,120 become. And the the headlines and the 534 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:04,200 horrible things written about him in the 90s and beyond are 535 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,720 the kind of thing that can make your stomach turn if you imagine 536 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,600 them written about anyone you love or any human being really. 537 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,960 But with someone like Michael who we have such respect for, 538 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,720 it's really difficult. So I guess I'm saying all of 539 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,600 this because I think if you did not experience being a fan 540 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,520 during the 1980s, which I did not, I did not grow up. 541 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,520 I was born in 1988. So I did not grow up as a fan of 542 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,120 Michael in that era. I think that maybe it's 543 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,200 different for you if you grew up during the era. 544 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,680 Maybe you are already very familiar with what I'm talking 545 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600 about, how the media was already being unkind to him pretty early 546 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,200 on in his explosive adult career. 547 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,000 But I know as a newer fan and as a fan who was not around at that 548 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:50,000 time, and I know just based on my observation and participation 549 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,280 in the online fandom, very few people in the modern Michael 550 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,280 Jackson fandom would look at, for example, the bad era and 551 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,160 think anyone would have anything bad to say about that. 552 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,280 Michael looked incredible. He sounded incredible. 553 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,200 His live performances were like second to none. 554 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,000 There were no major scandals about him at that time. 555 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,000 Like there's nothing that when you look back from this lens, 556 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,080 there's nothing a person looking back from this time period could 557 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,400 look at during that time and think, oh, this is obviously a 558 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,120 thing that would people would bother him about, you know what 559 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,240 I mean? And the fact that when you go 560 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,240 back to the media at that time and there's this overall 561 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,640 narrative about oh, he looked so weird or oh, what was wrong with 562 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,920 him? Or oh, he like was bizarre and 563 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,320 infantilized and a stunted adult and all these things. 564 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,480 The narrative that existed at the time is inconsistent with 565 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,440 how he is viewed now during that time. 566 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,000 And part of that is because we are now absent of the noise. 567 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,160 We are absent of the tabloids of that time. 568 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,560 We are absent of the nightly entertainment news. 569 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:04,240 We are absent of all of those things that spread this idea 570 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,560 about Michael that made him weird because no one looking 571 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,840 back at him now finds him weird during that time. 572 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,960 They probably find him eccentric and charming, but not weird. 573 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,600 So it's just kind of interesting to me to think that, you know, 574 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,159 for Michael, he was obviously experiencing something that was 575 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,000 really painful and bothersome to him already at that point in his 576 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,560 career, which was this kind of harassment from the media. 577 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:30,360 I like that he uses this though, in a way to begin this 578 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,159 consistent addressing he does throughout the book from here 579 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:37,199 forward about the way the media talks to the public about him 580 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,400 and responds to him. It's something that this is just 581 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,320 the beginning of that. But as the book continues, we'll 582 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,840 see more of his response. And his response is always so 583 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,000 tempered and much more so than most people's would be, 584 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,199 honestly. But he uses this as a chance to 585 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:56,280 talk about his own relationship to growing up in the public eye 586 00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,480 from the perspective of And this is when he says, I take some 587 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,040 small pride in thinking that I've come out pretty well, all 588 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,240 things considered. That makes me a little bit sad, 589 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:14,400 to be honest, because what I do think Michael did come out well, 590 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,920 all things considered. And I, you know, I do not see 591 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,120 Michael as being at fault for the things that happened to him 592 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,680 throughout the remainder of his life after this book came out. 593 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,240 Obviously, we all play a role in the things that happen in our 594 00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:32,720 lives. No one is like 100% lacking in 595 00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:34,640 responsibility for the direction of their own life. 596 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,680 You know, I'm not saying that, but I don't generally blame 597 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,640 Michael for the things that happened in his life that sort 598 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,760 of spiraled out of control in the later times. 599 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,160 I, I really do blame the media as well as, you know, certain 600 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,600 individuals and people and as well as Michael's trauma that 601 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,160 what made him a vulnerable person. 602 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,680 But my point is it is hard to read this when you know that to 603 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,560 some degree, the situations he ended up in and the the darker 604 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,320 things that happened to him in his life did in some ways happen 605 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,920 as a result of him being a child star of, you know, he, he became 606 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,720 a very vulnerable person in a large part because of his very 607 00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:16,960 unique life. So it is really painful to see 608 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,240 like, yeah, in the in the late 80s, he was really thriving. 609 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,040 You know, he was young and healthy and beautiful and 610 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,960 talented and have the whole world, you know, wrapped up in 611 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,000 excitement about him. And a lot of that didn't 612 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,240 necessarily change as he got older, but a lot of darkness 613 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:37,800 started to surround him as he got older and really difficult 614 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,520 and bad things started to happen in his life. 615 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:46,040 And I don't know, it's just like it's hard to read the wisdom of 616 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:51,280 a 2829 thirty year old and then know 20 years later how the 617 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,880 story changes. You know, it's just, it's 618 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,720 painful. I've always said this like being 619 00:36:56,720 --> 00:37:00,000 a fan of Michael Jackson especially, I think, I think 620 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,520 this is probably actually always been true. 621 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,200 But I can only speak from my own perspective, which is being a 622 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,720 fan after he died and having the hindsight to be able to look at 623 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,880 his entire life as a complete kind of volume of human 624 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,760 experience and be able to say, OK, I know the beginning, middle 625 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,720 and end. There's something really painful 626 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,880 about it because you can't do anything to stop it or prevent 627 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,560 the things that happened that were not good. 628 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,440 You know, I'm not trying to get depressing. 629 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,920 I realize we're not there. We're not talking about that 630 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,520 part of his life yet. And I'm sorry, but you just, I 631 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,720 can't help but point out the irony, you know, of Michael 632 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,320 talking about how he escaped the pitfalls of being a child star. 633 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,680 Because at this point, it certainly seemed like he did, 634 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,800 didn't it? But there's a lot more of his 635 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,600 life he left after this point. So we're going to continue now 636 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,880 just focusing on the moment and focusing on his recollection of 637 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,320 his life. But I can't help it, you know, 638 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,960 we get off, we get out of AI. Don't want to stay off topic 639 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,240 because it's all Michael, right? But like, it's hard to not form 640 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:05,040 all these connections as I'm reading it, you know, He goes 641 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,080 on, though, to say that, you know, one of the ways he made it 642 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,760 out well was not ever really getting into drugs. 643 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,760 Now, again, we obviously know that Michael did develop a 644 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,120 dependency later on prescription drugs. 645 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,560 So it is in large part related to accidents he experienced in 646 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,080 his life, including the Pepsi incident, which we'll get to in 647 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,200 this book, as well as later incidents in his life, including 648 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:31,120 serious, serious back injury from a stage fall and things 649 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,760 like that that led to a kind of dependency on prescription 650 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,120 drugs. At this point, Michael is 651 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,040 saying, you know, he never tried any drugs, any recreational 652 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,720 drugs, nothing and didn't drink, didn't support the idea of 653 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,840 marijuana or cocaine or anything like that. 654 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,840 And this is definitely part of the image he was known for, 655 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,640 certainly contributed to the whole like Peter Pan image that 656 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,880 people like to talk about that he just rejected a lot of these 657 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,480 things that became so normalized in the music industry. 658 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,440 And actually, as a sidebar, and I told you I'm I'm going to try 659 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,280 not to get so completely off track all the time in this 660 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,280 episode. But I, I was thinking as I was 661 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,680 talking about this, about Michael's relationship to 662 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,080 prescription drugs and the song Morphine and how when I first 663 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,280 became a fan, I had read Moonwalk. 664 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,280 And if you listened to my earlier episodes this season, 665 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,360 you know, I was just like so immersed and in love with being 666 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,560 in Michael's head. And I, I just felt really close 667 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,640 to him and very interested in him. 668 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,120 Just having read this, I felt like I really understood him in 669 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,080 a lot of ways. And then shortly after my first 670 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,720 reading of Moonwalk, I heard the song Morphine for the first time 671 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,400 and I was like, I, I almost had like a panic attack, to be 672 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:48,560 honest. I know that's going to sound 673 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,720 very dramatic to people who are not like highly sensitive or 674 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,720 highly emotional people, but I did. 675 00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:59,360 I, I felt this like sickness inside of me that this person 676 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,680 who spoke this way about how much he didn't want to ever do 677 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,200 drugs or have anything like this take over his life. 678 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,440 And he's seen that be a downfall for other people. 679 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,080 Ended up in a situation where he was dependent on prescription 680 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,480 drugs and. Really suffered a kind of an 681 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,800 addiction and it, and it's just like really heartbreaking to me. 682 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,520 And I, I remember just struggling so much with that, 683 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,360 like I felt sick. And it was really kind of the 684 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,440 beginning because it was only a month, a couple months into my 685 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,240 fandom. It was really the beginning of 686 00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:33,320 me allowing myself to venture into the dark parts of his life 687 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,680 because prior to that I was just like in love, you know, and 688 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,960 having a great time and it was like a party all the time. 689 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,560 But once they really started getting into his story, it it 690 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,640 was challenging, you know, it was challenging. 691 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,120 And, and eventually we'll we'll probably talk more about this 692 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,200 topic as it comes up again later in the book. 693 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,000 But yeah, it's just like elephant in the room. 694 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,520 You know, again, we have all the knowledge of what happens in his 695 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:57,560 life. So it's hard. 696 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,640 It's hard to ignore it, you know, Anyway, but bless you for 697 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,000 listening to all of that. Let me move on. 698 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,960 I guess one of the main things I wanted to point out in that 699 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,000 whole section is he said, I've seen drugs destroy too many 700 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,640 lives to think they're anything to fool with. 701 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,120 So, you know, he's talking about I won't do drugs, I don't do 702 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,160 drugs. But then he says I'm certainly 703 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,240 no Angel. And I may have my own bad 704 00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:22,080 habits, but drugs aren't among them. 705 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,840 And so now I ask you, Michael, what are your bad habits? 706 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,400 In what way are you not an Angel? 707 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:32,520 I want every detail. I want to know it all. 708 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,120 It's not my right, I get it. But I want to. 709 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,720 I want to know how are you? How are you bad? 710 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:42,120 Other than you know in the video, how are you bad? 711 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,720 I want to know. I'm so curious because what else 712 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:49,800 is there? I can think of a few things, but 713 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,320 who knows, maybe someday we'll know more about that side of 714 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,240 Michelle's life. I don't know that we're going to 715 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,200 get much more here, but thanks for cluing us in. 716 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:02,120 Michael, you're no Angel, but we are all curious as to why he 717 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,520 then starts talking again about the extended and continual 718 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:12,400 success of the Motown years, talking a bit about when Ben 719 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,480 came out and Ben was obviously super successful for Michael. 720 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,280 It was Ben was Michael's first number one hit. 721 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:23,320 I think he was 14, right? 13 or 14 when it hit #1 My mom 722 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,640 listens to this podcast and she always tells me a story about 723 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,480 being at a school dance and dancing to the song Ben. 724 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,000 And it's just like so cute to me. 725 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,840 I can't stand it. So shout out mom. 726 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,520 I hope you don't mind me sharing that little tidbit, but I've 727 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:37,560 always thought it was really cute. 728 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,120 I do love to hear comments here on the way the different 729 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,520 international audiences responded to him because 730 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,120 something myself and a few of my Michael Jackson friends do talk 731 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,920 about is how interesting it is to watch the different audiences 732 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,680 and to see how they respond. I have a friend who also listens 733 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:00,160 to this podcast who struggles to watch the bad tour performances 734 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,440 in Japan because the audience is not excited enough. 735 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,600 Which I get because to me, the only appropriate response to 736 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,240 Michael performing is fainting or dying right there in the 737 00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:14,680 middle of the crowd and never being seen again. 738 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,400 Those are the only adequate responses to me. 739 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,680 So either way though, he talks about how in the US people would 740 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,160 sing along during the actual performances. 741 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,240 They would sing every song so they couldn't really hear how 742 00:43:27,240 --> 00:43:30,680 good they were, but how abroad. So I think specifically in the 743 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,440 UK there was that experience of getting to actually like show 744 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,040 off their talents, which I, I think is really sweet because 745 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,920 you can't help but want to sing along when you're at a great 746 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,600 concert. But I, I've also wondered, like, 747 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,200 would I be annoyed if I were at a Michael Jackson concert and 748 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,920 everyone around me was singing? Because I'd be like, I want to 749 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,640 hear Michael. I'm here for him. 750 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,320 It'd be very difficult for me within this whole section where 751 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,720 he's talking about the cultural differences, he starts talking a 752 00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:01,160 little bit about the East versus West in terms of cultural 753 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,560 values. And I love this whole section 754 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,600 because this is something that as I've gotten older, I have 755 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,640 personally enjoyed learning a lot more about. 756 00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,440 And, you know, as I get older, I see more and more flaws as an 757 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:19,680 American in the Western view of life, in the Western values, 758 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:25,280 especially a real focus on like, material wealth or consumerism 759 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,120 or whatever. He talks about the Eastern 760 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:33,360 countries he visited, like China and Japan, where they said that. 761 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,440 He said they helped me grow because these countries made me 762 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,600 understand that there was more to life than the things you 763 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,440 could hold in your hands or see with your eyes and how these 764 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,480 cultures cared more about animals in nature and were more 765 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:50,720 spiritual. If you listened to season 1 of 766 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:54,160 this podcast where we talked about Dancing the Dream, every 767 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:56,600 piece almost in that book is very spiritual. 768 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,840 And so we have a lot of these conversations about spirituality 769 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,320 and Eastern versus Western cultures and the influences on 770 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,600 Michael. He goes on to talk about 771 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,120 Australia and New Zealand and meeting with tribes from the 772 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,040 Outback and how even though they didn't speak their language, 773 00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,840 they greeted he and his brothers like they were family and like 774 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,600 they were friends. Which I just think is beautiful. 775 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,400 It actually made me think of an experience I had when I was 776 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,440 younger and I was volunteering in the Dominican Republic and I 777 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,880 was working primarily with children who didn't speak any 778 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,880 English and I didn't speak any. They spoke Creole in that part 779 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,840 of the Dominican Republic because they were Haitian 780 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,880 refugees I was working with. They spoke Creole, which I did 781 00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,800 not speak. And they did not speak English. 782 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,640 But we found ways to communicate. 783 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,320 And I befriended the women in the village, the village that we 784 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,480 were in. And those women also didn't 785 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,320 speak any English and I didn't speak any Creole. 786 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,600 But I remember them teaching me how to make juice and them 787 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:57,480 teaching me how to weave something. 788 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,920 And I, I remember a woman giving me a really beautiful woven 789 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,080 gift. And I guess my point is, I felt 790 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,240 that kind of connection even without language. 791 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,440 And, you know, we looked completely different from 792 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,040 completely different parts of the world, even without language 793 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,520 and with complete and total difference, there was this sense 794 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,720 of human camaraderie. I really feel that's something 795 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:20,840 you can experience anywhere. But it's especially, I guess, 796 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,560 apparent when you don't have any commonalities with someone other 797 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,200 than your humanity. And then you're like, wow, just 798 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,400 on a base level, human beings are so interconnected, you know, 799 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,440 and it's, it's kind of a beautiful thing to witness, but 800 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,760 also experience. He talks a bit about Africa as 801 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,640 well here and learning about Africa and how unbelievably 802 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,040 beautiful the shore and the people were. 803 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,640 And he talks about, of course, the music, which is, you know, 804 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,480 there's so many instances throughout Michael's music of 805 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,920 African influences, but also of him talking about Africa as a 806 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,240 great influence for him and of course a musical and spiritual 807 00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:58,960 heritage. I loved this whole section where 808 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,200 he was talking about seeing artisans and, and people making 809 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,960 crafts and going to markets and, and just appreciating the talent 810 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,720 of the people in these places where he visited. 811 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,600 Something I thought of just now as talking through all of these 812 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,520 different global reflections Michael had is how this must 813 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:21,360 have been just like really exciting as an international 814 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,560 Michael fan to hear him or read him rather, talking about your 815 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,880 country and his perceptions of your country, the things that he 816 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,200 loved about your country and visiting your country and what 817 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,960 he gained from it. Culturally, I can't imagine what 818 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,560 that would be like because I'm American. 819 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,200 And so when Michael talks about his upbringing and stuff, 820 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,040 there's a commonality there for me because of American culture. 821 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:51,960 But I feel like it would be so exciting to know that he visited 822 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:56,440 your home country or your city or whatever, and he would know 823 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,800 like, oh, he took something of value from that. 824 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,880 And I wonder, I think these are very authentic reflections, but 825 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,600 I also wonder if he really wanted to be sure to include 826 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:11,760 these things because he wanted his global audience to be able 827 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,560 to feel connected to him in a way that would otherwise be very 828 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,840 difficult. Kind of like how he included his 829 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,440 signature, you know, in every single one of these. 830 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:25,200 He wanted to be able to transfer that kind of connection. 831 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:28,120 And I love that. And I hope that it had that 832 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,560 effect for people reading this for the first time. 833 00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:35,240 And now at this point, Michael starts getting into some of the 834 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,200 the things kind of taking another turn at Motown and 835 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,080 becoming a little bit more frustrating. 836 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,600 So of course, Motown had a string of incredible number one 837 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,840 hits with the Jackson 5. They had major success globally, 838 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,440 toured all over the place, very well known and very successful. 839 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:56,920 But this real fear of becoming this like, like aging out and 840 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:01,320 becoming an oldies act, I think he says before he was even 18 841 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,800 because they felt a lack of freedom at Motown. 842 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,400 And on one hand, I do understand Motown's perspective in that 843 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,280 like they had felt they had a formula and they were also 844 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,800 adults doing this for a long time who had had tremendous 845 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,640 success. And the Jackson five are this 846 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,840 group of kids slash very young adults. 847 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,360 And they were really good at what they did do. 848 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,760 And I imagine the fear that came with maybe messing with that 849 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:32,160 formula would be really tough. So like, I do understand 850 00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,440 Motown's perspective, but when you have a talent like Michael 851 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,360 Jackson, you know, like to hold him back from anything seems 852 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,240 just incredibly wrong, you know? But I appreciated this whole 853 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:47,280 section, hearing about Michael's frustrations and what he wanted 854 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,120 to do and what his family wanted to do. 855 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,080 Because again, like I've mentioned this in previous 856 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:55,960 episodes, but I love to see those early signs of Michael's 857 00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,280 passion as a as a performer and a musician coming to life. 858 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,040 And the kind of artistic freedom he was seeking was really 859 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:07,720 reminiscent of that. I think he does give some credit 860 00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:11,920 to Motown, though, because he says that they did have one more 861 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:13,960 fantastic hit, which was Dancing Machine. 862 00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:18,840 However, I get the sense from Michael and I get the sense just 863 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,440 in life that that song was largely a hit in a lot of ways 864 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:27,040 because of Michael Jackson's charisma and talent as a dancer. 865 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,360 And it's kind of cool actually. So I remember the very first 866 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,920 time I saw the Dancing Machine performance, I don't know if it 867 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,640 was the Soul Train one or not, which I know was the the big 868 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,280 one. I just know I saw it and I, I 869 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,160 remember just like rewinding it over and over and be like, is 870 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,160 that like physically possible? What I'm seeing? 871 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,280 Is he on some sort of like platform or like, I didn't know. 872 00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:53,040 I was so, so shocked by his robot that he does. 873 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:57,400 Like I was shocked. I was also shocked because I had 874 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,200 no idea that Michael was the person who popularized the 875 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,000 robot. You know, I know he didn't 876 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,280 invent it, but he popularized it just like, you know, other 877 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:10,240 dances in his career. And that is incredible to me 878 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,680 that not only does he have the moonwalk much later, you know, 879 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,760 but dancing Machine, he has the robot. 880 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:19,920 Wow. Like, I think that really hit 881 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,480 home for me the first time when I saw MJ the musical because 882 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,480 they have a part where they're going through the Motown history 883 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,360 and they have all these, like headlines they flash across the 884 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,840 back of the back screens of the stage while they're reenacting 885 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,320 the Soul Train performance with Michael doing the robot. 886 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,960 And there's all these headlines about like Michael Jackson's 887 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,120 robot, like takes over and like, you know, it's just like, God, 888 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,520 what a cool person. He's such a cool person. 889 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,520 To have done that more than once in his life, you know, like to 890 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,120 create a craze like that is pretty, pretty freaking cool. 891 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:57,840 It actually reminded me too previous in this section, 892 00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,480 earlier in this section, he's talking about Randy getting 893 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,360 involved and I don't know if you've seen it, but I just can't 894 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:05,640 help but bring attention to this. 895 00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:10,920 There is a video of them on the Johnny Carson show and they're 896 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,880 performing Dancing Machine and Randy's there with his little 897 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:14,920 bongos. He's very cute. 898 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,200 And as soon as it gets to the dance break for Michael to do 899 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,720 the robot, the camera guy goes to Randy playing the bongos. 900 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,280 So he only catches like the very last moment or second of Michael 901 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,280 doing the robot. And I just thought, Oh, my God, 902 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,000 you probably got fired or something. 903 00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:36,920 Like what? It just blew my mind. 904 00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:40,080 And I just, I always think about that whenever I imagine Little 905 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,440 Randy playing the bongos and I imagine Dancing Machine, I 906 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,200 always think about this performance and how it's like, 907 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,120 so frustrating. And I can only imagine for them 908 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:53,040 and for Johnny Carson's audience afterward, knowing what they 909 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,120 missed would have been like, man, you know? 910 00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,040 And there's only a couple more things I want to mention for 911 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,320 this episode because I feel like I'm talking a lot. 912 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,480 Wow. I think it's interesting that he 913 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,600 doesn't get super involved in talking about the Las Vegas 914 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,000 residency that they did. I mean, he spends like a page or 915 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,120 two on it, but he doesn't say a lot about it. 916 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,640 And I just think it's so interesting that this kid act 917 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,880 even had a residency like that. But it made me a little sad that 918 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,320 that felt like such freedom to him to be like in Vegas and 919 00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,960 performing in that manner because comparatively to Motown, 920 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,160 it was really freeing. I guess that is his transition 921 00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:34,960 really to talking about the need to leave Motown. 922 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:38,560 Now I have to say, I think it's it's pretty remarkable. 923 00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,200 And I already knew this, but just being reminded of it, like, 924 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,360 wow, it's pretty remarkable that Michael was the one to really 925 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:50,360 take the reins and go to Berry Gordy and say we want to write 926 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,640 our own music or we're leaving. And then he followed through and 927 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:55,080 he insisted that they were leaving. 928 00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:00,320 I find it very interesting because Michael frames this as 929 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,400 when I know something's right or something's not right or 930 00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,280 whatever, I have to stand up for myself. 931 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,240 I have to say something. I can't just wait. 932 00:54:08,240 --> 00:54:10,040 I, I have to do something about it. 933 00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:13,080 I will note at this point, he does say something along the 934 00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,120 lines of, oh, yeah, you may not believe this. 935 00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:19,120 The, the media makes you think I'm really meek, but actually 936 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,600 they just don't know me. Like, these are the sides of 937 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:25,080 Michael that honestly, nobody would believe that someone who 938 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,120 is, is as soft spoken and gentle as him would also be at like, 939 00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,800 you know, as a teenager going to Berry Gordy, the head of Motown 940 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,920 and being like, no, we're leaving because we're you're not 941 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,400 letting us do what we want. Like for any teenager, that 942 00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,840 would be really, really difficult. 943 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,480 And yet nobody would imagine somebody like Michael who was so 944 00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,640 shy and everything to do that. And I, I'd love that. 945 00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,880 But Michael characterizes this as this is just part of his 946 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:50,440 personality. He can't help it. 947 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:52,680 The others in his family were unhappy too. 948 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:54,440 And if they hadn't been, maybe he wouldn't have done it. 949 00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:00,240 I'm sure that's all very true. I am inclined to believe, 950 00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:04,320 though, that perhaps like Michael had this vision for his 951 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,480 career and the purpose of his career from the time he was so 952 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:13,200 young that I think where is a lot of people, his family, but 953 00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,560 also in general, you know, a lot of people would be inclined to 954 00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:18,480 be like, you know what, we already have it pretty good. 955 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,040 We're on a major label, you know, like, let's just let's 956 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:23,800 just do this for a bit. Let's make some money. 957 00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,400 And you know, that's what matters. 958 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,840 We'll just be stable. We'll be secure. 959 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,600 I feel like the average person would do that and a lot of 960 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:34,440 people would do that. They would choose that security 961 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,080 over the risk. But I feel, I don't know. 962 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,520 Michaels internal desire and artistic Dr. seems to be what 963 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,680 drove them away. It's not just that he has that 964 00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:48,320 personality, but like there's something fiery going on inside 965 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,320 of him. And it seems evident when you 966 00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,000 look at the trajectory of his entire career that that was true 967 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,640 within him his whole life. And I don't want to say that 968 00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,560 didn't exist within his siblings, but I think it's 969 00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:02,360 pretty clear it existed in a different way than it did within 970 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,520 Michael. You know, it's just kind of 971 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,000 amazing, though, with how much of like a tough person Joe 972 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:11,080 Jackson was, it makes me think he didn't want to give up the 973 00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,040 stability of Motown either, necessarily, because like, why 974 00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,280 did he not do it? You know, like, why was it on 975 00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,840 Michael to do that? You know, it's just a little bit 976 00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:24,760 strange to me. So either way, though, how 977 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,440 amazing that Michael did do this. 978 00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:29,080 And I love the way he talks about this conversation with 979 00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:33,680 Berry Gordy and how Berry Gordy and he, you know, this was a 980 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,240 difficult moment for their relationship, but they're fine 981 00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:37,560 now. They love each other. 982 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,800 He's like a father figure. You know, it just kind of goes 983 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,400 to show how in a lot of ways, those early bonds that Michael 984 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,000 made with Berry Gordy, with Diana Ross, you know, they, they 985 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,520 ended up being really fundamental and pivotal 986 00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,280 relationships in his life throughout really throughout his 987 00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,320 adult life as he progressed. I mean, Berry Gordy even wrote 988 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,760 the one of the forwards of this book that we've already read and 989 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,080 talked about, you know, so it, it, it speaks well to the fact 990 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,080 that Michael really didn't burn bridges very much, you know, and 991 00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:10,760 when it happened, it probably had a really good reason to 992 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,880 happen. So there we end with Michael and 993 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:18,640 the Jacksons going over to Epic. So we're going to pick up with 994 00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,360 that at the next episode. This was an interesting 1 995 00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:24,720 though, you know, like I said, lots of movement, lots of things 996 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,840 happening. Thank you for your patience as I 997 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,920 definitely rambled a little bit more than normal, I think in 998 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,520 this episode, although who knows you, you tell me. 999 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,320 Maybe I talk this much all the time and I'm just feeling it 1000 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,800 more today. Either way, I very much enjoy 1001 00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,920 being with you again today and having this discussion, thinking 1002 00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:44,840 deeply about Michael and his whole life. 1003 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,000 I look forward to next week where we continue with Chapter 3 1004 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,280 of Moonwalk. Until then, I hope you have a 1005 00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:58,320 wonderful week and weekend and we will talk again very soon. 1006 00:57:59,160 --> 00:57:59,760 Take care.