Hello, friends. Thank you so much for joining me
for another episode of Reading Michael Jackson.
I am your host Lena, and we're at episode 5, the beginning of
chapter 2 now. I am so happy to be here with
you again to continue this season.
I know I've said this in almost every episode so far, but this
season has felt so different for me already and I would love to
hear some feedback from you all and know how are you liking it
so far. How does it feel to be reading
Moonwalk in this way rather than dancing the dream which I was
like completely invested in for a year?
It this feels so different, but just as intentional in a lot of
ways. So I'm really curious to know
what people are thinking so far and if it's if it's jiving with
you. So if you'd like to reach out
and say hello and give me any of your feedback or thoughts so far
on on how this season is resonating with you, please feel
free to e-mail me at readingmichaeljackson@yahoo.com
or comment on the episode on Spotify or YouTube or any other
way that you are able to and want to.
I reply to everything, so if I don't ever reply, it's because I
didn't see it. But with that said, I recently
came across this article and this YouTube video.
They were by two different creators, one one was a writer
and one was a content creator of some kind.
But they were both about the concept and aim for an anti
brain rot kind of approach to life.
Now if you're not aware, the word brain rot was declared like
the word of the year last year by Oxford Dictionary.
And that is like one of the most depressing things I've ever
heard. But it is because so many of us
right now in the world are so addicted to our screens, our
phones, the constant consumption of short form content, and we're
not really thinking very much. We're not being intellectually
challenged very much or deeply thinking very much.
And so I came across these two different pieces, this article
that was how to design an Anti brain rot year and also this
YouTube video which was an anti brain rot guide to reading.
And both of them talked about intentionality as being
fundamental to rejecting the normalization of this kind of
brain rotting. And for at least the reading
video, which was presenting this kind of challenge about what we
read and how we read, for at least that video, one of the
things that was stressed was the importance of annotation, of
really sitting with and taking time with the books that we
read. Intentionally taking notes or
thinking through our responses to them, thinking about what
really sticks out for us. Really trying to see if we can
soak as much meaning up from a piece of writing that is
possible. And I started to think about
this podcast and how all of last year we went methodically
through Dancing the Dream and read one piece every week and
spent a lot of time discussing it and thinking about it and
nature of engaging with these things.
Regardless of what your how your opinion maybe varied from mine.
You also did this very intentional reading with me last
year, and now I'm thinking about this and how, I mean, I've read
Moonwalk in one sitting before. So to extend this over the
course of several months, I was editing an episode yesterday
actually. And I was thinking about how
even though there's always things that I miss that I wish I
would remember to discuss or pick up on in the discussion
portion of an episode. I was thinking about just how
great it is not only for us as Michael Jackson fans to dedicate
real time to trying to understand him and think about
his world and his life experiences and, and, and really
try to genuinely grasp what he's telling us about his story.
But also just as people, how good it is for us to really sit
with and think about the words and the language and the meaning
behind them and our own curiosity and empathy and all
these things. So I guess I just felt really
happy about that this week when I thought as much as I brain rot
and others do, I hate the term by the way.
I'm just using it to be consistent, but whatever.
As as much as many of us do this in my creation of this podcast
and of you showing up to consume this podcast, we are kind of
playing our own part in an anti brain rot way of living in 2026.
So I just want to say thank you for showing up and listening and
hopefully along with me getting something out of this,
especially when it comes to understanding Michael, which is
like the whole point right? The whole point of reading
Michael Jackson is to understand Michael Jackson, right?
So with that said, I am going to get started now.
Last week we finished up finally after 4 episodes, my goodness,
we finished up chapter 1. Now, is this because I'm pacing
these poorly or because these chapters are just freakishly
long? I want to say it's not my fault,
but is anything Michael's fault? No, of course not.
So anyway, we are going to start Chapter 2 today.
Now, we ended right at the Motown audition.
They they completed the audition.
They thought it went well, they hoped it went well, and they
went home and waited to hear more.
And that's the cliffhanger. We were like, is it a
cliffhanger when we know what happens?
I don't know, but that was the cliffhanger.
So for now, we are going to jump off on starting Chapter 2.
So if you would like to follow along, we are going to be
reading pages 67 to 82. So now is the time that I invite
you to relax, get comfortable, get cozy, and join me for this
beginning reading of Chapter 2. Chapter 2.
We were jubilant when we learned we had passed the Motown
audition. I remember Berry Gordy sitting
us all down and saying that we were going to make history
together. I'm going to make you the
biggest thing in the world, he said.
And you're going to be written about in history books.
He really said that to us. We were leaning forward,
listening to him and saying, OK, OK, I'll never forget that.
We were all over at his house and it was like a fairy tale
come true, listening to this powerful, talented man telling
us we were going to be very big. Your first record will be a
number one, your second record will be a number 1, and so will
your third record, three number ones in a row.
You'll hit the charts just as Diana Ross and The Supremes did.
This was almost unheard of in those days, but he was right.
We turned around and did just that, three in a row, so Diana
didn't find us first. But I don't think we'll ever be
able to repay Diana properly for all she did for us in those
days. When we finally moved to
Southern California, we actually lived with Diana and stayed with
her for more than a year on a part time basis.
Some of us lived with Berry Gordy and some of us with Diana,
and then we would switch. She was so wonderful, mothering
us and making us feel right at home.
She really helped take care of us for at least a year and a
half while my parents closed up the Gary house and looked for a
house we could all live in here in California.
It was great for us because Barry and Diana lived on the
same St. in Beverly Hills. We could walk up to Barry's
house and then go back to Diana's.
Most of the time I'd spend the day at Diana's and the night at
Barry's. This was an important period in
my life because Diana loved art and encouraged me to appreciate
it too. She took the time to educate me
about it. We'd go out almost every day,
just the two of us, and buy pencils and paint.
When we weren't drawing or painting, we'd go to museums.
She introduced me to the works of the great artists like
Michelangelo and Degas, and that was the start of my lifelong
interest in art. She really taught me a great
deal. It was so new to me and so
exciting. It was really different from
what I was used to doing, which was living and breathing music,
rehearsing it day in and day out.
You wouldn't think a big star like Diana would take the time
to teach a kid to paint, to give him an education in art, but she
did, and I loved her for it. I still do.
I'm crazy about her. She was my mother, my lover and
my sister, all combined in one amazing person.
Those were truly wild days for me and my brothers when we flew
to California from Chicago. It was like being in another
country, another world. To come from our part of
Indiana, which is so urban and often bleak, to the land of
Southern California was like having the world transformed
into a wonderful dream. I was uncontrollable back then.
I was all over the place. Disneyland, Sunset Strip, the
beach. My brothers loved it too, and we
got into everything like little kids who had just visited a
candy store for the first time. We were awestruck by California
trees, had oranges and leaves on them in the middle of winter.
There were palm trees and beautiful sunsets, and the
weather was so warm. Every day was special.
I would be doing something that was fun and wouldn't want it to
end. But then I'd realized there was
something else to do later that was going to be just as
enjoyable and that I could look forward to it just as much.
Those were heady days. One of the best parts of being
there was meeting all the big Motown stars who had emigrated
to California along with Berry Gordy after he moved from
Detroit. I remember when I first shook
Smokey Robinson's hand. It was like shaking hands with a
king. My eyes lit up with stars, and I
remember telling my mother that his hand felt as if it was
layered with soft pillows. You don't think about the little
impressions people walk away with when you're a star
yourself, but the fans do. At least I know I did.
I mean, I walked around saying his hand is so soft.
When I think about it now, it sounds silly, but it made a big
impression on me. I had shaken Smokey Robinson's
hand. There are so many artists and
musicians and writers I admire. When I was young, the people I
watched were the real showman. James Brown, Sammy Davis,
Junior, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly.
A great showman, touches everybody.
That's the real test of greatness.
And these men have it. Like Michelangelo's work, it
touches you. I don't care who you are.
I am always excited when I get a chance to meet someone whose
work has affected me in some way.
Maybe I've read a book that has touched me deeply or made me
think about things I haven't focused on before.
A certain song or style of singing can excite me or move me
and become a favorite that I'll never tire of.
Hearing a picture or a painting can reveal a universe In the
same vein. An actor's performance or a
collective performance can transform me.
In those days, Motown had never recorded a kids group.
In fact, the only child singer they had ever produced was
Stevie Wonder. So Motown was determined that if
they were going to promote kids, they'd promote the kind of kids
who were good at more than just singing and dancing.
They wanted people to like us because of who we were, not just
because of our records. They wanted us to set an example
by sticking to our school work and being friendly to our fans,
reporters and everyone who came into contact with us.
This wasn't hard for us because our mother had raised us to be
polite and considerate. It was second nature.
Our only problem with school work was that once we became
well known, we couldn't go to school because people would come
into our classrooms through the windows looking for an autograph
or a picture. I was trying to keep up with my
classes and not be the cause of disruptions, but it finally
became impossible and we were given tutors to teach us at
home. During this period, a lady named
Suzanne de Pass was having a great effect on our lives.
She worked for Motown and it was she who trained us religiously.
Once we moved to LA, she also became a manager for the Jackson
5. We lived with her, occasionally
ate with her, and even played with her.
We were a rowdy, high spirited bunch and she was young herself
and full of fun. She really contributed a lot
toward the shaping of the Jackson 5 and I'll never be able
to thank her enough for all that she did.
I remember Suzanne showing us these charcoal sketches of the
five of us. In each sketch, we had a
different hairstyle. In another set of color
drawings, we were all pictured in different clothes that could
be switched around like color forms.
After we all decided on the hairstyles, they took us to a
Barber so they can make us match up with our pictures.
Then, after she showed us the clothes, we went down to a
wardrobe department where they gave us outfits to try on.
They'd see us in one set of clothes, decide the clothes
weren't right, and we'd all go back to the color forms to try
on some more. We had classes in manners and
grammar. They gave us a list of
questions, and they said they were the kinds of questions that
we could expect people to ask us.
We were always being asked about our interests and our hometown
and how we liked singing together.
Fans and reporters alike wanted to know how old we each were
when we started performing. It was hard to have your life
turn into a public property, even if you appreciated that
people were interested in you because of your music.
The Motown people tested us on the answers to questions we
hadn't heard from anyone yet. They tested us on grammar and
table manners. When we were ready, they brought
us in for the last alterations on our sleeves in the trimming
of our new afros. After all that, there was a new
song to learn called I Want You Back.
The song had a story behind it that we found out about little
by little. It was written by someone from
Chicago named Freddie Perin. He had been Jerry Butler's
pianist when we opened for Jerry in a Chicago nightclub.
He had felt sorry for these little kids the club owner had
hired, figuring the club couldn't afford to get anyone
else. His opinion changed dramatically
when he saw us perform. As it turned out, I Want You
Back was originally called I Want to Be Free and was written
for Gladys Knight. Freddie had even thought that
Barry might go over Gladys's head and give the song to The
Supremes. Instead, he mentioned to Jerry
that he just signed this group of kids from Gary, IN.
Freddie put two and two together, realized it was us,
and decided to trust fate. When we were learning the Steel
Town songs back in Gary, Tito and Jermaine had to pay special
attention because they were responsible for playing on those
records. When they heard the demo for I
Want You Back, they listened to the guitar and bass parts, but
Dad explained that Motown didn't expect them to play on our
records. The rhythm track would be taken
care of before we put our vocals down, but he reminded them that
this would put more pressure on them to keep up their practice
independently because we'd have to duplicate those songs in
front of our fans. In the meantime, all of us had
lyrics and cues to learn. The guys looking after us in the
singing department were Freddie Perrin and Bobby Taylor and Deke
Richards, who, along with Hal Davis and another Motown guy
named Fonz Mizzle, were part of the team that wrote and produced
our first singles together. These guys were called The
Corporation. We went over to Richard's
apartment to rehearse, and he was impressed that we had
prepared so well. He didn't have to do much
tinkering with the vocal arrangement he'd worked out, and
he thought that while we were still hot, we should go right to
the studio and cut our parts. The following afternoon we went
to the studio. We were all so happy with what
we got that we took our rough mix over to Berry Gordy.
It was still mid afternoon when we arrived at the studio.
We figured that once Barry heard it, we'd be home in time for
supper. But it was one in the morning
when I finally slumped in the back seat of Richard's car,
bobbing and studying my head all the way home to fight off sleep.
Gordy hadn't liked the song we did.
We went over every part again, and when we did, Gordy figured
out what changes he had to make in the arrangement.
He was trying new things with us, like a school chorus master
who has everyone singing their part as if they're singing
alone, even if you can't hear him or her distinctly for the
crowd. After he was through rehearsing
us as a group and he had reworked the music, he took me
aside one-on-one to explain my part.
He told me exactly what he wanted and how he wanted me to
help him get it. Then he explained everything to
Freddie Perrin, who was going to record it.
Barry was brilliant in this area.
Right after the single was released, we went in to cut an
album. We were particularly impressed
with the I Want You Back session because that one song took more
time and tape than all the other songs on the record combined.
That's the way Motown did things in those days, because Barry
insisted on perfection and attention to detail.
I'll never forget his persistence.
This was his genius. Then and later.
I observed every moment of the sessions where Barry was present
and never forgot what I learned. To this day, I use the same
principles. Barry was my teacher and a great
1. He could identify the little
elements that would make a song great rather than just good.
It was like magic, as if Barry was sprinkling Pixie dust over
everything. For me and my brothers,
recording from Motown was an exciting experience.
Our team of writers shaped our music by being with us as we
recorded it over and over, molding and sculpting a song
until it was just perfect. We would cut a track over and
over for weeks until we got it just as they wanted it, and I
could see while they were doing it that it was getting better
and better. They would change words,
arrangements, rhythms, everything.
Barry gave them the freedom to work this way because of his own
perfectionist nature. I guess if they hadn't been
doing it, he would have. Barry had such a knack.
He'd just walk into the room where we were working and tell
me what to do, and he'd be right.
It was amazing. When I Want You Back was
released in November 1969. It sold 2 million copies in six
weeks and went to #1 Our next single, ABC, came out in March
1970 and sold 2 million records in three weeks.
I still like the part where I say show me what you can do when
our next single, I'll Be There was also a big hit.
In the fall of that year, we realized we might even surpass
Barry's expectations and be able to pay him back for all the
effort he had made for us. My brothers and I, our whole
family, we're very proud. We had created a new sound for a
new decade. It was the first time in
recording history that a bunch of kids had made so many hit
records. The Jackson Five had never had
much competition from kids our own age.
In the amateur days, there was a kids group called the Five Stair
Steps that we used to see. They were good, but they didn't
seem to have the strong family unit that we did and sadly they
broke up After ABC hit the charts in such a big way.
We started seeing other groups that record companies were
grooming to ride the bandwagon that we had built.
I enjoyed all of these groups, the Partridge family, The
Osmonds, the Defranco family. The Osmonds were already around,
but they were doing a much different style of music, like
barbershop harmony and crooning. As soon as we hit, they and the
other groups got into Seoul real fast.
We didn't mind competition, as we knew was healthy.
Our own relatives thought one bad apple was us.
I remember being so little that they had a special apple crate
for me to stand on with my name on it so I could reach the
microphone. Microphones didn't go down far
enough for kids my age. So many of my childhood years
went by that way with me standing on that Apple box
singing my heart out while other kids were outside playing.
OK, so we are going to stop there with our reading and get
into a little bit of discussion. Oh my gosh, there is so much to
discuss in this chapter already. I was struggling because my mind
was just racing with things I wanted to say and comment on.
If I paused every time I wanted to say something, if that were a
format I would try, you would hate me.
It would be terrible. So I am happy to now have the
chance to go back and make some commentary on this.
My goodness, so much I want to say about these early Motown
days and some of the revelations Michael gives us during this
section. So one thing I forgot to mention
is that Chapter 2 is titled The Promised Land, which makes a lot
of sense when we hear Michael talk about the transition from
Gary, IN to California. For those of our international
listeners and also US based listeners who just haven't been
to these places, I have fortunately been able to visit
both. And Gary, IN like many Midwest
towns and cities, especially those that don't have a lot of
money, that there's a lot of economic issues and crime and
things like that. Gary has a kind of sad dark
energy. Now, obviously in the 60s it may
have been a little bit different, but I know that of
course, it has a long history of a lot of struggle.
And in the winter time, especially in the the fall and
winter, it is dark and bleak and the sky is Gray and it's just,
you know, again, it is Northeast and Midwestern United States are
very much like that during the winter months.
So California, on the other hand, like Michael describes, is
always, almost always perpetually sunny, bright blue
sky, bright sun. It is warm.
LA is very close to the water in the ocean.
So it's a very, very different vibe.
The culture is also very, very different.
Now again, this may have changed more since the 1960s.
So I, I can't comment on that too much.
But there is a kind of brightness and lightness in a
lot of ways to even the the people in California versus in
the Northeast or the Midwest. So it's culturally very, very
different, not just in terms of like the weather and the
atmosphere, you know, So I understand LA, the promised
land, but I know so many people growing up who dreamt of going
to LA for various reasons, and I was kind of one of them.
So I certainly can appreciate what it would be like to have
these dreams come true when you're so young, as Michael and
his siblings were. So in these early pages, Michael
talks a little bit about his early interactions with Berry
Gordy and Berry saying and declaring very strongly, we are
going to make history. You are going to be stars,
You're going to break records. And he talked about how
meaningful that was to hear that from a really powerful,
successful man and how much he believed it.
And it instantly made me think about how Michael has been that
person for a lot of people. I mean, I'm talking specifically
about different child stars or different up and coming pop
stars, people that he had some cases produced albums for or
stepped in with to support in different ways.
Families he had befriended, who he helped their kids get into
music and acting lessons and dance lessons and things.
You know, Michael was someone who told many of these people,
you can do amazing things, you can do amazing things and you
can make history and you can be successful if you work hard
enough. And I mean, Michael, truly, it
was that powerful man that was often encouraging and telling
people that they could do anything.
There are so many beautiful and positive examples of this from
child stars. There's actually a really sweet
interview that the actress Jennifer Love Hewitt did as an
adult where she talks about how she worked with Michael in the
early 90s on a commercial for LA Gear, I think the the sneaker or
shoe company. And he had invited her and her
mother to Neverland. And I think he wasn't able to be
there or something. But they were supposed to then
go to some sort of charity fundraiser.
And he sent he sent a donation in the name of Jennifer Love
Hewitt when she was just a little girl.
And he told her at the time that it was because when you're
successful, it's your responsibility to pay it back.
And I think within that he was encouraging her and saying this
is something that you will be doing it later in your life when
you are successful. And this is part of what you
need to learn now when you're very young.
And she recalled this memory in a really beautiful and positive
way and very said very warm things about Michael in it.
And that's just, again, one example.
Anyway, it just it, it sometimes strikes me when I read these
pieces from Michael that like Michael became these people that
he so admired in a lot of ways, he became and exceeded those
people in in many capacities. And another example of this is
when later in the chapter, he talked about meeting Smokey
Robinson and commenting on, Oh my gosh, his hands were so soft.
And again, it's so cute because like, as crazy as it sounds in
the Michael Jackson fandom, how many times have you as a Michael
Jackson fan heard people say, what did he smell like?
You know, there's all these things that people just want to
know about him. And then if you ever meet a fan
who who met him, everyone tells their story and shares the the
details of what they remember about seeing him or interacting
with him or if they hugged him or whatever.
You hear all these details and it's really cute.
It actually made me think how Michael's early experiences of
being a fan of people that he met obviously stayed with him in
an empathetic way. So I don't just mean that he
stayed grounded or, you know, he remembered where he came from or
anything like that. Michael is so gracious toward
his fans, and he always was so gracious toward his fans, so
tolerant of insane behavior, honestly, so warm in response to
their love and interest in him. And on one hand, it's like, OK,
he was clearly, as he outlined in this chapter, clearly he was
trained on some level to be that way by Motown, as well as being
raised in just a really gracious, polite way by his
mother. But it goes beyond that because
it is clear that Michael empathizes and can relate to his
fans. He doesn't see himself the way
we see him, of course, but he knows and really remembers
distinctly how it feels to be in awe of someone and how it feels
to just touch their hand and be so enamored with what that felt
like. And I think the fact that he was
famous his entire life and never lost that ability to understand
that is kind of incredible. I think about that.
And the fact that even, like, as Michael got older into his, you
know, 20s, his 30s, even his 40s, he had people he deeply
admired. And he never lost sight of other
people being worthy of admiration.
And I think it's because he clearly never elevated himself
in his own mind as being better or more important than other
people. Because think about it in order
to like stay present of mind and empathizing with and being
tolerant of and having patience for your fans reacting to you in
a certain way, which obviously made his life very difficult.
Frankly, to have all that patience, it would require a
very present mind that keeps you kind of grounded in the sense
that like you remember and understand how they feel.
And not just remember because of he was 10 years old one time
meeting Smokey Robinson, but because throughout his entire
life, he maintained significant admiration and appreciation for
people who he considered great artists.
So I just think that that's super interesting.
I, I actually love that in this chapter, he talks about exactly
this. He says I am always excited when
I get a chance to meet someone whose work has affected me in
some way. Maybe I've read a book that has
touched me deeply or made me think about things that I
haven't focused on before. A certain song or style of
singing can excite me or move me to become a favorite that I'll
never tire of. Hearing a picture or painting
can reveal a universe in the same vein that an actor's
performance or a collective performance can transform me.
I just want to say I love that section for so many reasons.
I love, I think I mentioned this last week perhaps, but I, I love
that Michael does not shy away from honoring people that came
before him. But it isn't just, oh, I respect
this person. Michael is a super fan.
Michael understands fandom. He understands like a deep,
resounding respect and admiration and interest in a
person or people based on the way there are or their work has
affected or moved him. I appreciate this so much As a
person who feels and experiences art and every kind of creative
form that I engage with. I, I feel it very, very deeply.
And a lot of people are kind of embarrassed, I think to show how
much work effects them. But Michael was not.
Michael was so comfortable and I don't think it was even a
choice, but more just inevitable that he would be and stay that
way. And it, you know what it made me
think of, I think this is something I may have talked
about last season, but bear with me.
I thought of Michael's former manager, actually very briefly
was his manager in the 1980s, Howard Bloom.
And he wrote a book called Einstein, Michael Jackson and Me
or something along those lines. And the whole book is kind of
walking through his very illustrious and strange career,
both in science as well as in music, music management.
And in that he talks about meeting Michael Jackson in his
first time meeting him. And this was during the Thriller
era. So like, I think it was 1984
'cause it was leading up to the Victory Tour, he met Michael.
And he described Michael's reaction to a piece of art,
which was I think the artwork for an album cover they were
looking at have this incredible way of describing Michael's
reaction. Actually, I think I might just
play a short clip for you from an interview Howard Bloom did
because it really, really demonstrates what I'm talking
about here with Michael's significant appreciation of the
arts. So this is Howard Bloom talking
about meeting Michael Jackson. And he was the most remarkable
person I've ever met in my life. And when I tell people, Howard
Merkel, they don't believe me. He was, you know, you and I and
Jamie are on a certain level, and we don't know we're on a
certain level because we figured these are the range.
This is the range of humanity. If we go out and meet anybody on
the street or even anybody famous, I work with Buzz Aldrin
these days, what we're going to encounter is another person
pretty much like us. Sorry.
In Michael Jackson's case, he did not fit on this normal plane
at all. He was on a plane somewhere
where you've never seen a human being before.
So the first time I met him, we were at his brother Marlins pool
house. It's a little house with just
enough room for one big room on the 1st floor and another big
room on the 2nd floor with a little tiny staircase between
them. So we're in the middle of that.
We're in this room and Michael and I are standing next to each
other. So his elbow is at his left
elbow is at my right elbow, his left knee is at my right knee.
And we have a meeting with the art director from CBS and she
walks in with five of the most gorgeous portfolios you've ever
seen in your life, Hand carved cherry wood, hand carved
leather. And these are from guys I know
because I was, I started in pop culture in the art business and
these were my legendary competitors.
And, and Michael opens the first page of the first portfolio and
he gets a square inch into it, a postage stamp size piece into
it. And he goes, oh, and his knees
begin to buckle and he gets another 2 square inches into it.
Just lifts the page a little bit further.
Oh, he lifts it an even further Oh, Michael is seeing the
infinite in the the, in things that even the artist didn't see
it with such Infinity as Michael is seeing it.
And by the time he gets to the full page, he's having a full
scale aesthetic orgasm. I have never seen anything like
this in my life. And remember, the first 2 rules
of science are the truth at any price, including the price of
your life. And look at things run under
right under your nose as if you've never seen them before.
And then proceed from there. Michael is seeing the infinite
in the tiniest of things. And you've never seen a human
with this degree of awe, wonder and surprise anywhere in your
life. And I will never see another
human like that again in my lifetime.
Michael was beyond belief. So I have to tell you because I
I cannot remember if I told you this in Season 1, but I actually
met Howard Bloom in New York City last summer.
It was very happenstance, very weird.
I saw him in a park. I reached out to him on social
media and was like, hey, will you talk to me?
And he agreed, and we took a walk together for two hours and
talked about Michael Jackson. It was a pretty wild experience
and very cool. But anyway, he tells the story
exactly the same way. Now, I had obviously a million
probing questions, but he that I believe this is truly what
happened because I have heard him tell the story so many times
and it is he says it the same way.
But when he was talking to me, he got actually a little bit
emotional when he was talking about this because he's still
Howard. I mean, still seemed completely,
completely in awe of his observation of Michael Jackson
and the way I mean, he was in the way he talked about Michael.
He was completely in awe of him still and it felt incredibly
sincere in in Howard Bloom is an interesting character, but like
when I met him, I genuinely felt a, a really a real sincerity
from him and how he thought about Michael and personal
responsibility he felt about Michael and regrets he had about
his relationship with Michael and and whatnot.
Anyway, it was a really interesting experience.
But I bring this up just because again, I I love to emphasize
this side of Michael, who was not just a superstar performer,
an incredible artist and talent and genius and all of that, but
he was a human being that on a very base level had an extremely
profound appreciation for art and creation and creativity.
I think all of those reasons are part of why he was so grateful
to his fandom and so gracious to his fans and had a mutual
respect for his fans, because I think he genuinely felt touched
that the way he feels about great artists are how people
feel about him. I mean, he would often say, I'm
just grateful the public enjoy what I do, which sounds like
such a humble and like almost like really could not be really
how you feel. But I really think it was true
with Michael because if you know who he was on that level, for
someone to be moved by your art to him was a really, really big
deal. So anyway, I don't need to keep
going on about that. But it's one of my favorite
things about Michael, that passionate intensity he has
about life and about everything. That's one of my favorite things
about him. So I I don't want to bypass
that. Anyway, one more comment I want
to make about the early part of this section we read today,
because the second-half is mostly about working with
Motown. He talks about his relationship
with Diana Ross. So if you listened to last
season and you listen to all of it, then you know, you know, I
honestly just want to sit here and quietly sip tea or
something, You know, whenever we talk about Diana Ross now what I
will say. Is that Diana was clearly an
incredibly important figure in Michael's life.
He talks about it here. He talks about the role she
played, exposing him to art, spending time with him, being a
very maternal figure to him when he didn't have access to his own
mother, and how influential she was to him.
But he also goes on to describe her as my mother, my lover and
my sister, which is a quote that is referred to often in the
community where there is, of course, a lot of suspicion about
Michael's ultimate relationship with Diana Ross.
As he became an adult and they spent time together.
And he would openly talk about being in love with her and
wanting to marry her and would dedicate songs to her that were
very clearly about love or heartbreak or inability to be
with someone. And, you know, there was,
there's a lot. And I'm not going to start
quoting, you know, the forums or the, you know, all in my own
personal conversations about this because that's not what
this podcast is about. The podcast is about reading
what Michael actually wrote and and contending with that.
But I will say, given that there's so much suspicion about
what their relationship ultimately became and you know,
how it evolved over the course of his life and as he matured,
it's a little weird to read this section for me because I talk so
often with friends and in the thank community, I read so much
about their relationship dynamic and there's a lot there.
So I, I guess I'll just say this, I am grateful that during
a time and Michael didn't have access to his mother and so much
in his life was changing, that he had a really solid figure in
his life that cared for him and spent time with him and
encouraged him. He obviously saw this as a very
positive thing in his life. That's, that's all I really want
to say about it at this point. I think we do touch upon Diana a
little bit more in later parts of the book, but perhaps I will
save more commentary on this for then as well As for the end
review of the book itself. I hope I didn't say anything
super controversial there. I was really playing it
politically as much as I could. Anyway, let's move on.
So something I think is really cool in learning about Michael's
years with Motown is learning about how the entire system of
Motown worked and how he was trained to appear in public and
in the world, and what pressure existed to represent Motown.
But also, I would imagine by extension, the African American
community in the United States to the world.
And part of that involved media training and lessons and manners
and grammar in a certain kind of schooling and being taught how
to respond to questions. And, you know, it's, it's
interesting because I feel a lot of mixed feelings about that.
Like on one hand it makes me sad because a 10 year old should not
have to be thinking about this stuff.
I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great for a child to learn
manners and you know how to speak and things like that.
But in terms of like the control of how to almost create a
divide, this is who I am in public and this is who I am in
private. Now, all of us as adults do that
to some degree. We have different versions of
ourselves with different people. I don't think it is a crisis
that he had to do this, but he did it to such an extreme from
such a young age with his own success, his family's success
and all the pressure of the corporation on him to make sure
he was doing this successfully. And that is hard.
That's a lot of pressure and doing this.
I think I this is a notable and important thing doing this pre
puberty, I think is part of what makes this so uncertain to me
about if this was a good or a bad thing for Michael.
Because pre puberty is when children's are children are like
the most free. But then I think going through
puberty, you start to figure out like who who you are on a on
another level, Like who, what, what role do you play in
society? Like how are people perceiving
you? How do you respond to those
perceptions? You know, that's such a
difficult time of life. So to prior to getting to do
that sort of personal exploration on your own, being
taught and trained in such an intense way how to be, I think
it would just be very confusing. But then on the flip side, I
have this this part of me that is so intrigued by this because
on one hand, I can say, you know, Motown was kind of
stripping their authenticity to some degree, or they were trying
to present this like perfect image and whatnot.
And that the problem is like, we shouldn't be looking for our
celebrities and whatever to be our role models.
But I feel like we're in today's world, we sort of like embrace
this quote, UN quote authenticity in our superstars
and our artists because they use social media to connect with
their fans. And there's this perception that
they are being more authentic or real, less scripted and all
that. Again, it's a perception.
I don't think it's the reality. I think it's the way it's, you
know, portrayed to us. My point is there's this that
this dialogue that exists today as if you are somehow able to
prevent yourself, especially as a child or a kid or a teen, from
being influenced by the people that you are watching and
listening to. Whereas back then, I feel like,
you know, people weren't in denial of the fact that that's
just what was going to happen, whether or not they should do
it, OK, But that's just what was going to happen.
You know, there was, there's no way around it.
Like you spend time watching and listening to you and looking up
to people, you are going to be influenced by them.
You, you can't help it. It's like when you spend time
with a person and you notice after a while of spending time
with them that you start to pick up on certain phrases they say
or even certain characteristics. I remember in college I started
somehow copying this girl's laugh.
I don't do it anymore, which is great, but it wasn't even
intentional. It just started to happen
because I would spend time with this person.
And I think it's the same way. So we can talk about how we
should and are responsible to separate ourselves and not be
influenced. But is that realistic?
I don't know. It puts a lot of pressure on
people, especially young artists like Michael was, to be a role
model for something that they themselves aren't really
choosing and don't really, we don't even really know if they
personally align with. So there's something strange
about it to me. I guess that was kind of an all
over way of saying I love the actual effect of this media
training on the Jackson 5 as well as artists back at that
time period. I think that we have records of
artists behaving in really kind of respectful and respectable
ways. Not I mean not across the board,
but just generally speaking. There are records of that which
is really cool to be able to look back on, but there is a
part of us that is not able to really see who they really were
because of it. So, you know, it's a complicated
thing to me, but I find it fascinating because when you
think about the fact that Michael got this kind of
training when he was 10 years old, eleven years old, and it
continued. Then the person we go on to see
become the superstar Michael Jackson, who always maintained a
kind of distance and interviews and Uber politeness, Uber
respectability. We see him not reveal very much
and keep so much close to the chest, but then be explosive as
a performer. And it makes me wonder how much
of your your true self gets funnelled into your performance
and your performance style when you're kind of muzzled your
whole life about what you're supposed to say and how you're
supposed to be, you know? Anyway, let's get more into some
of these Motown moments here before we wrap up to close.
So they talk about recording. I want you back, Oh my goodness.
I want you back as such a great song.
And every time I think about I want you back, I think about
when I was a little girl listening to I, I have this
really strong memory of being on the beach with my family and
there was a radio playing I want you back.
And I think ABC, maybe it's a little tape of the Jackson 5.
And I remember specifically thinking like, 'cause I was a
little kid, I was like 6. I remember like thing like, oh,
I like that boy that's singing and my mom telling me, oh,
that's Michael Jackson. And I was like, no, Michael
Jackson's old. This was probably like 1992 or
1994 or something. And she's like, no, this is when
he was a little boy. And I remember having this
realization, oh, this is not a little boy that I can meet
someday. This is a little boy that is now
a grown up. And it made me really sad.
I don't know if my mom knows that actually that story, but I
remember that really well. And I always think about that
when I I think about these early hits because I can go anywhere
and I can, I probably hear I want You back somewhere in
public like once a week. I hear it constantly on US
radio. It is very popular still.
But I don't know, it's just kind of like cute to hear about the
whole story of how they came to be.
Although I'll admit, I felt a little sad for little Michael
being proud of his song and then having to stay up until 1:00 AM
recording and he's falling asleep in the car on the way
home. I get a sense that Michael, in
crafting this, did struggle because on one hand, he wants to
represent, hey, there were really good parts of this.
I learned so much. I've heard so many people from
Motown, like including Smokey Robinson and Berry Gordy, refer
to Michael as like a sponge. He soaked up every bit of
knowledge there was. He asked a million questions.
He watched everyone. He was obsessed with learning
and could sustain that level of attention and focus.
I mean, think about a little kid being able to be in the studio
for like 15 hours, like, like, that's crazy, you know?
But he did. And so I think about that
because for Michael, that was all positive.
I mean, he said I still work this way today when he was
regarding Berry Gordy's perfectionism.
I still work this way today. I still employ these tactics
when I'm recording. But then he Peppers in things
like, and then I was falling asleep while driving home.
Or how he ends this section, which is so many of my childhood
years went by that way with me standing on that Apple box
singing my heart out while other kids were outside playing.
You know, it's almost like Michael doesn't want us to
forget that there was a cost to these things.
And it makes me think about how, I mean, one of the reasons I, I
may have mentioned this in the first like episode 0 or
whatever, one of the reasons that a lot of people don't
recommend publishing A memoir until you're like at least in
your 30s and often later is preferable is because before
then and even after, of course, you're still really coming to
terms with your childhood. You're still learning how to
hold people accountable for things that may have hurt you.
And in Michael's case, you know, he's, I think he's sort of
coming to terms at this point. This was the mid 1980s that he
was doing these interviews. He's in his 20s.
He's still coming to terms with the fact that he lost a great
deal in his life. You know, I think he was aware
of it. Of course he was aware of it.
He had talked about it. It's not like he had hidden
that. He had some concerns about that.
But you really start to hear him talk about this in the 90s in
the Oprah interview. He talks about this really
openly, the song Childhood, which of course he released as a
way to try to appeal to the public's understanding of him as
being a person who had lost his childhood and was complicated
relationship to childhood. Because of this.
It's it's unfortunate sometimes I think that his one and only
autobiography was published when he was only like 29 or 30.
You know, it's unfortunate because how much more would he
say? And not just because he'd be
comfortable saying it, but because he would actually
understand his own life differently.
Because that's the key to me here is that it's not that you
necessarily become braver as you get older, although I do think
you do. I think it's also that you come
to a greater understanding or, or a more accurate understanding
of what was really going on. And so in Michael's case, I
think that we're seeing those signs of him coming to terms
with the reality of his life and the reality of all he lost.
And struggling to find that balance between how do you show
gratitude and be grateful for things that you have, that you
genuinely are grateful you have, while also remarking on the
things that were damaging or troublesome or not fair for you
in some way or another too. It also shows to me tonally,
perhaps a little bit like somebody really trying to remind
a public who is very willing to forget the sacrifice Michael had
made that's very willing to forget he's a human being.
This reminder that, hey, I am a human being.
Remember, I was a kid doing this.
I was a kid who couldn't keep his eyes open in the back seat
of a car and he had to stand on an apple crate to reach the
microphone stand because it wasn't designed for someone as
small as me. So like I said, he does a lot.
It's like 15 pages and I've talked for like 40 minutes.
The only other thing I want to comment on here is that in this
section there have been some photos throughout the book that
are in black and white, which are really great stills and
stuff from his Motown days and moments and Gary and things.
But this section, at least in my print copy, I think this should
be the case. In most of the copies there are
several pages of glossy photos. There are photos of Michael
photo shoots for the bad tour or in that time period.
There's performance photos of him.
There's stills from the Thriller music video shoot.
There's a really, really cool close up photo.
It goes across the whole 2 pages of Michael putting on his hat
and his glove and like you can't see his face at all.
It's a very cool like VV tour era photo.
There's a photo with Michael with Diana Ross at the We're the
World recording all these beautiful glossy photos.
And I talked about this a little bit in my Dancing the Dream
discussion. But I do think there's something
to be said for how valuable it would have been to, as a fan at
this time, receive an own, a book that had glossy, high
quality photos of Michael Jackson where you couldn't just
Google it, You couldn't just look on your phone, you know, in
your gallery or whatever and look at photos of him.
It was actually quite a valuable thing to have access to.
So I do love seeing those photos.
I will refrain from commenting on my thoughts about the photos
because you don't need to hear me talk about how beautiful
Michael Jackson is, at least not for the thousandth time.
I've talked about this a lot in general, but he's beautiful, OK?
My God, these photos, he's gorgeous, and I can't, what else
can I say? It has to be said.
Anyway, that brings us truly and completely to the end of this
episode. I had a lot of fun today.
Maybe we're getting more into the story.
I'm getting excited. I don't know.
This was really a good time for me.
So I hope that you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, and I
look forward to continuing reading Chapter 2 of Moonwalk
next week. So for now, I wish you all a
beautiful week and a weekend, and I will talk to you all again
very, very soon. Take care.