1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,400 Hello, friends. Thank you so much for joining me 2 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:12,080 for another episode of Reading Michael Jackson. 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:18,840 I am your host Lena, and we're at episode 5, the beginning of 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,240 chapter 2 now. I am so happy to be here with 5 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:26,040 you again to continue this season. 6 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,680 I know I've said this in almost every episode so far, but this 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:34,000 season has felt so different for me already and I would love to 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,920 hear some feedback from you all and know how are you liking it 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,800 so far. How does it feel to be reading 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,560 Moonwalk in this way rather than dancing the dream which I was 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,360 like completely invested in for a year? 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,680 It this feels so different, but just as intentional in a lot of 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,160 ways. So I'm really curious to know 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,600 what people are thinking so far and if it's if it's jiving with 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,680 you. So if you'd like to reach out 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:07,360 and say hello and give me any of your feedback or thoughts so far 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,120 on on how this season is resonating with you, please feel 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,800 free to e-mail me at readingmichaeljackson@yahoo.com 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,920 or comment on the episode on Spotify or YouTube or any other 20 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,160 way that you are able to and want to. 21 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,840 I reply to everything, so if I don't ever reply, it's because I 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,960 didn't see it. But with that said, I recently 23 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:34,320 came across this article and this YouTube video. 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,720 They were by two different creators, one one was a writer 25 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:39,880 and one was a content creator of some kind. 26 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:47,120 But they were both about the concept and aim for an anti 27 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,840 brain rot kind of approach to life. 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,840 Now if you're not aware, the word brain rot was declared like 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,680 the word of the year last year by Oxford Dictionary. 30 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,760 And that is like one of the most depressing things I've ever 31 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,960 heard. But it is because so many of us 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:09,400 right now in the world are so addicted to our screens, our 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,800 phones, the constant consumption of short form content, and we're 34 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,800 not really thinking very much. We're not being intellectually 35 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,120 challenged very much or deeply thinking very much. 36 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,400 And so I came across these two different pieces, this article 37 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:34,480 that was how to design an Anti brain rot year and also this 38 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,040 YouTube video which was an anti brain rot guide to reading. 39 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,840 And both of them talked about intentionality as being 40 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,120 fundamental to rejecting the normalization of this kind of 41 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,840 brain rotting. And for at least the reading 42 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,160 video, which was presenting this kind of challenge about what we 43 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,320 read and how we read, for at least that video, one of the 44 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,240 things that was stressed was the importance of annotation, of 45 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,800 really sitting with and taking time with the books that we 46 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:12,280 read. Intentionally taking notes or 47 00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:16,600 thinking through our responses to them, thinking about what 48 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:22,720 really sticks out for us. Really trying to see if we can 49 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,280 soak as much meaning up from a piece of writing that is 50 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,760 possible. And I started to think about 51 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,680 this podcast and how all of last year we went methodically 52 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,160 through Dancing the Dream and read one piece every week and 53 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,080 spent a lot of time discussing it and thinking about it and 54 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,680 nature of engaging with these things. 55 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,000 Regardless of what your how your opinion maybe varied from mine. 56 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,520 You also did this very intentional reading with me last 57 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,680 year, and now I'm thinking about this and how, I mean, I've read 58 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,880 Moonwalk in one sitting before. So to extend this over the 59 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:03,280 course of several months, I was editing an episode yesterday 60 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,800 actually. And I was thinking about how 61 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,520 even though there's always things that I miss that I wish I 62 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,320 would remember to discuss or pick up on in the discussion 63 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:17,240 portion of an episode. I was thinking about just how 64 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,840 great it is not only for us as Michael Jackson fans to dedicate 65 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:26,560 real time to trying to understand him and think about 66 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,040 his world and his life experiences and, and, and really 67 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,560 try to genuinely grasp what he's telling us about his story. 68 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,600 But also just as people, how good it is for us to really sit 69 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,240 with and think about the words and the language and the meaning 70 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,080 behind them and our own curiosity and empathy and all 71 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:46,560 these things. So I guess I just felt really 72 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,320 happy about that this week when I thought as much as I brain rot 73 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,200 and others do, I hate the term by the way. 74 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,080 I'm just using it to be consistent, but whatever. 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,920 As as much as many of us do this in my creation of this podcast 76 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,680 and of you showing up to consume this podcast, we are kind of 77 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,920 playing our own part in an anti brain rot way of living in 2026. 78 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,800 So I just want to say thank you for showing up and listening and 79 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,520 hopefully along with me getting something out of this, 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,280 especially when it comes to understanding Michael, which is 81 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,840 like the whole point right? The whole point of reading 82 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:28,360 Michael Jackson is to understand Michael Jackson, right? 83 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,680 So with that said, I am going to get started now. 84 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:38,240 Last week we finished up finally after 4 episodes, my goodness, 85 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,400 we finished up chapter 1. Now, is this because I'm pacing 86 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,000 these poorly or because these chapters are just freakishly 87 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,680 long? I want to say it's not my fault, 88 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,240 but is anything Michael's fault? No, of course not. 89 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,120 So anyway, we are going to start Chapter 2 today. 90 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,360 Now, we ended right at the Motown audition. 91 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,920 They they completed the audition. 92 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,640 They thought it went well, they hoped it went well, and they 93 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,920 went home and waited to hear more. 94 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,280 And that's the cliffhanger. We were like, is it a 95 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:14,880 cliffhanger when we know what happens? 96 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:16,520 I don't know, but that was the cliffhanger. 97 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,960 So for now, we are going to jump off on starting Chapter 2. 98 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,840 So if you would like to follow along, we are going to be 99 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:30,760 reading pages 67 to 82. So now is the time that I invite 100 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:37,840 you to relax, get comfortable, get cozy, and join me for this 101 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:51,880 beginning reading of Chapter 2. Chapter 2. 102 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,120 We were jubilant when we learned we had passed the Motown 103 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,520 audition. I remember Berry Gordy sitting 104 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,160 us all down and saying that we were going to make history 105 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,680 together. I'm going to make you the 106 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,080 biggest thing in the world, he said. 107 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,320 And you're going to be written about in history books. 108 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,800 He really said that to us. We were leaning forward, 109 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,760 listening to him and saying, OK, OK, I'll never forget that. 110 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,160 We were all over at his house and it was like a fairy tale 111 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,160 come true, listening to this powerful, talented man telling 112 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,640 us we were going to be very big. Your first record will be a 113 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,560 number one, your second record will be a number 1, and so will 114 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,760 your third record, three number ones in a row. 115 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,200 You'll hit the charts just as Diana Ross and The Supremes did. 116 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,640 This was almost unheard of in those days, but he was right. 117 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:57,560 We turned around and did just that, three in a row, so Diana 118 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,880 didn't find us first. But I don't think we'll ever be 119 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,720 able to repay Diana properly for all she did for us in those 120 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,120 days. When we finally moved to 121 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,880 Southern California, we actually lived with Diana and stayed with 122 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,320 her for more than a year on a part time basis. 123 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,880 Some of us lived with Berry Gordy and some of us with Diana, 124 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,280 and then we would switch. She was so wonderful, mothering 125 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,400 us and making us feel right at home. 126 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,920 She really helped take care of us for at least a year and a 127 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,320 half while my parents closed up the Gary house and looked for a 128 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,120 house we could all live in here in California. 129 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:37,000 It was great for us because Barry and Diana lived on the 130 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,120 same St. in Beverly Hills. We could walk up to Barry's 131 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:41,960 house and then go back to Diana's. 132 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,800 Most of the time I'd spend the day at Diana's and the night at 133 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,440 Barry's. This was an important period in 134 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,680 my life because Diana loved art and encouraged me to appreciate 135 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:55,440 it too. She took the time to educate me 136 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,000 about it. We'd go out almost every day, 137 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,360 just the two of us, and buy pencils and paint. 138 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,760 When we weren't drawing or painting, we'd go to museums. 139 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,160 She introduced me to the works of the great artists like 140 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:11,560 Michelangelo and Degas, and that was the start of my lifelong 141 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:15,040 interest in art. She really taught me a great 142 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,840 deal. It was so new to me and so 143 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,400 exciting. It was really different from 144 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,720 what I was used to doing, which was living and breathing music, 145 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,280 rehearsing it day in and day out. 146 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,280 You wouldn't think a big star like Diana would take the time 147 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,080 to teach a kid to paint, to give him an education in art, but she 148 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,680 did, and I loved her for it. I still do. 149 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,240 I'm crazy about her. She was my mother, my lover and 150 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:44,360 my sister, all combined in one amazing person. 151 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,360 Those were truly wild days for me and my brothers when we flew 152 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,600 to California from Chicago. It was like being in another 153 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,320 country, another world. To come from our part of 154 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,440 Indiana, which is so urban and often bleak, to the land of 155 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,880 Southern California was like having the world transformed 156 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,240 into a wonderful dream. I was uncontrollable back then. 157 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,000 I was all over the place. Disneyland, Sunset Strip, the 158 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,960 beach. My brothers loved it too, and we 159 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,920 got into everything like little kids who had just visited a 160 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,120 candy store for the first time. We were awestruck by California 161 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,880 trees, had oranges and leaves on them in the middle of winter. 162 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,200 There were palm trees and beautiful sunsets, and the 163 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,480 weather was so warm. Every day was special. 164 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,080 I would be doing something that was fun and wouldn't want it to 165 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,400 end. But then I'd realized there was 166 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,440 something else to do later that was going to be just as 167 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,240 enjoyable and that I could look forward to it just as much. 168 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:51,600 Those were heady days. One of the best parts of being 169 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,920 there was meeting all the big Motown stars who had emigrated 170 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,480 to California along with Berry Gordy after he moved from 171 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,960 Detroit. I remember when I first shook 172 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,280 Smokey Robinson's hand. It was like shaking hands with a 173 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,800 king. My eyes lit up with stars, and I 174 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,720 remember telling my mother that his hand felt as if it was 175 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,480 layered with soft pillows. You don't think about the little 176 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,760 impressions people walk away with when you're a star 177 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,680 yourself, but the fans do. At least I know I did. 178 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,280 I mean, I walked around saying his hand is so soft. 179 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,080 When I think about it now, it sounds silly, but it made a big 180 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,800 impression on me. I had shaken Smokey Robinson's 181 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,640 hand. There are so many artists and 182 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,760 musicians and writers I admire. When I was young, the people I 183 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,200 watched were the real showman. James Brown, Sammy Davis, 184 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,200 Junior, Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly. 185 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,760 A great showman, touches everybody. 186 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,080 That's the real test of greatness. 187 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:56,440 And these men have it. Like Michelangelo's work, it 188 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,600 touches you. I don't care who you are. 189 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,800 I am always excited when I get a chance to meet someone whose 190 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:04,840 work has affected me in some way. 191 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,440 Maybe I've read a book that has touched me deeply or made me 192 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,720 think about things I haven't focused on before. 193 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,480 A certain song or style of singing can excite me or move me 194 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,160 and become a favorite that I'll never tire of. 195 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:23,240 Hearing a picture or a painting can reveal a universe In the 196 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,680 same vein. An actor's performance or a 197 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,160 collective performance can transform me. 198 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,400 In those days, Motown had never recorded a kids group. 199 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,640 In fact, the only child singer they had ever produced was 200 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,120 Stevie Wonder. So Motown was determined that if 201 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,680 they were going to promote kids, they'd promote the kind of kids 202 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,080 who were good at more than just singing and dancing. 203 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,680 They wanted people to like us because of who we were, not just 204 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,400 because of our records. They wanted us to set an example 205 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,240 by sticking to our school work and being friendly to our fans, 206 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,520 reporters and everyone who came into contact with us. 207 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,240 This wasn't hard for us because our mother had raised us to be 208 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,240 polite and considerate. It was second nature. 209 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,880 Our only problem with school work was that once we became 210 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,440 well known, we couldn't go to school because people would come 211 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,000 into our classrooms through the windows looking for an autograph 212 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,880 or a picture. I was trying to keep up with my 213 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,920 classes and not be the cause of disruptions, but it finally 214 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,240 became impossible and we were given tutors to teach us at 215 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,080 home. During this period, a lady named 216 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,200 Suzanne de Pass was having a great effect on our lives. 217 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:40,480 She worked for Motown and it was she who trained us religiously. 218 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,400 Once we moved to LA, she also became a manager for the Jackson 219 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,000 5. We lived with her, occasionally 220 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,120 ate with her, and even played with her. 221 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,400 We were a rowdy, high spirited bunch and she was young herself 222 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,640 and full of fun. She really contributed a lot 223 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,840 toward the shaping of the Jackson 5 and I'll never be able 224 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,960 to thank her enough for all that she did. 225 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,720 I remember Suzanne showing us these charcoal sketches of the 226 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,640 five of us. In each sketch, we had a 227 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,600 different hairstyle. In another set of color 228 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,960 drawings, we were all pictured in different clothes that could 229 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,040 be switched around like color forms. 230 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,080 After we all decided on the hairstyles, they took us to a 231 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,000 Barber so they can make us match up with our pictures. 232 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,320 Then, after she showed us the clothes, we went down to a 233 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,040 wardrobe department where they gave us outfits to try on. 234 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,360 They'd see us in one set of clothes, decide the clothes 235 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:41,200 weren't right, and we'd all go back to the color forms to try 236 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,080 on some more. We had classes in manners and 237 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,360 grammar. They gave us a list of 238 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,760 questions, and they said they were the kinds of questions that 239 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,760 we could expect people to ask us. 240 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,720 We were always being asked about our interests and our hometown 241 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,640 and how we liked singing together. 242 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Fans and reporters alike wanted to know how old we each were 243 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,920 when we started performing. It was hard to have your life 244 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,160 turn into a public property, even if you appreciated that 245 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,640 people were interested in you because of your music. 246 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,160 The Motown people tested us on the answers to questions we 247 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,560 hadn't heard from anyone yet. They tested us on grammar and 248 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,480 table manners. When we were ready, they brought 249 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,520 us in for the last alterations on our sleeves in the trimming 250 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,560 of our new afros. After all that, there was a new 251 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,520 song to learn called I Want You Back. 252 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,800 The song had a story behind it that we found out about little 253 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,320 by little. It was written by someone from 254 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:43,520 Chicago named Freddie Perin. He had been Jerry Butler's 255 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,960 pianist when we opened for Jerry in a Chicago nightclub. 256 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,120 He had felt sorry for these little kids the club owner had 257 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,120 hired, figuring the club couldn't afford to get anyone 258 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,960 else. His opinion changed dramatically 259 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,920 when he saw us perform. As it turned out, I Want You 260 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:04,160 Back was originally called I Want to Be Free and was written 261 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,160 for Gladys Knight. Freddie had even thought that 262 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,000 Barry might go over Gladys's head and give the song to The 263 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,360 Supremes. Instead, he mentioned to Jerry 264 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,360 that he just signed this group of kids from Gary, IN. 265 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,000 Freddie put two and two together, realized it was us, 266 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,760 and decided to trust fate. When we were learning the Steel 267 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,880 Town songs back in Gary, Tito and Jermaine had to pay special 268 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,920 attention because they were responsible for playing on those 269 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,800 records. When they heard the demo for I 270 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,600 Want You Back, they listened to the guitar and bass parts, but 271 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,680 Dad explained that Motown didn't expect them to play on our 272 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,120 records. The rhythm track would be taken 273 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,040 care of before we put our vocals down, but he reminded them that 274 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,320 this would put more pressure on them to keep up their practice 275 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,880 independently because we'd have to duplicate those songs in 276 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,360 front of our fans. In the meantime, all of us had 277 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,880 lyrics and cues to learn. The guys looking after us in the 278 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,760 singing department were Freddie Perrin and Bobby Taylor and Deke 279 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,119 Richards, who, along with Hal Davis and another Motown guy 280 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,079 named Fonz Mizzle, were part of the team that wrote and produced 281 00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:18,079 our first singles together. These guys were called The 282 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:21,160 Corporation. We went over to Richard's 283 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,720 apartment to rehearse, and he was impressed that we had 284 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,319 prepared so well. He didn't have to do much 285 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,200 tinkering with the vocal arrangement he'd worked out, and 286 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,160 he thought that while we were still hot, we should go right to 287 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,480 the studio and cut our parts. The following afternoon we went 288 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,240 to the studio. We were all so happy with what 289 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,920 we got that we took our rough mix over to Berry Gordy. 290 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,000 It was still mid afternoon when we arrived at the studio. 291 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,200 We figured that once Barry heard it, we'd be home in time for 292 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,080 supper. But it was one in the morning 293 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,480 when I finally slumped in the back seat of Richard's car, 294 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,320 bobbing and studying my head all the way home to fight off sleep. 295 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,240 Gordy hadn't liked the song we did. 296 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,600 We went over every part again, and when we did, Gordy figured 297 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,200 out what changes he had to make in the arrangement. 298 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,240 He was trying new things with us, like a school chorus master 299 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,400 who has everyone singing their part as if they're singing 300 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,200 alone, even if you can't hear him or her distinctly for the 301 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,160 crowd. After he was through rehearsing 302 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,600 us as a group and he had reworked the music, he took me 303 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,320 aside one-on-one to explain my part. 304 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,960 He told me exactly what he wanted and how he wanted me to 305 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,280 help him get it. Then he explained everything to 306 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,920 Freddie Perrin, who was going to record it. 307 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,640 Barry was brilliant in this area. 308 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:48,520 Right after the single was released, we went in to cut an 309 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,280 album. We were particularly impressed 310 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,600 with the I Want You Back session because that one song took more 311 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,520 time and tape than all the other songs on the record combined. 312 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:02,200 That's the way Motown did things in those days, because Barry 313 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,280 insisted on perfection and attention to detail. 314 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,920 I'll never forget his persistence. 315 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,520 This was his genius. Then and later. 316 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,120 I observed every moment of the sessions where Barry was present 317 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:19,640 and never forgot what I learned. To this day, I use the same 318 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:23,040 principles. Barry was my teacher and a great 319 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,640 1. He could identify the little 320 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,240 elements that would make a song great rather than just good. 321 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,520 It was like magic, as if Barry was sprinkling Pixie dust over 322 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,480 everything. For me and my brothers, 323 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,520 recording from Motown was an exciting experience. 324 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,360 Our team of writers shaped our music by being with us as we 325 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:48,160 recorded it over and over, molding and sculpting a song 326 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,160 until it was just perfect. We would cut a track over and 327 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,400 over for weeks until we got it just as they wanted it, and I 328 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,280 could see while they were doing it that it was getting better 329 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,440 and better. They would change words, 330 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,840 arrangements, rhythms, everything. 331 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:07,880 Barry gave them the freedom to work this way because of his own 332 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,240 perfectionist nature. I guess if they hadn't been 333 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,920 doing it, he would have. Barry had such a knack. 334 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,520 He'd just walk into the room where we were working and tell 335 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,400 me what to do, and he'd be right. 336 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,960 It was amazing. When I Want You Back was 337 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:29,560 released in November 1969. It sold 2 million copies in six 338 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,600 weeks and went to #1 Our next single, ABC, came out in March 339 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,920 1970 and sold 2 million records in three weeks. 340 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:52,880 I still like the part where I say show me what you can do when 341 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,760 our next single, I'll Be There was also a big hit. 342 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:01,360 In the fall of that year, we realized we might even surpass 343 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,880 Barry's expectations and be able to pay him back for all the 344 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,800 effort he had made for us. My brothers and I, our whole 345 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,280 family, we're very proud. We had created a new sound for a 346 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,280 new decade. It was the first time in 347 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,160 recording history that a bunch of kids had made so many hit 348 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,440 records. The Jackson Five had never had 349 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,600 much competition from kids our own age. 350 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,720 In the amateur days, there was a kids group called the Five Stair 351 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,080 Steps that we used to see. They were good, but they didn't 352 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,680 seem to have the strong family unit that we did and sadly they 353 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,160 broke up After ABC hit the charts in such a big way. 354 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,400 We started seeing other groups that record companies were 355 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,240 grooming to ride the bandwagon that we had built. 356 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,800 I enjoyed all of these groups, the Partridge family, The 357 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,880 Osmonds, the Defranco family. The Osmonds were already around, 358 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,840 but they were doing a much different style of music, like 359 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,920 barbershop harmony and crooning. As soon as we hit, they and the 360 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,480 other groups got into Seoul real fast. 361 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,360 We didn't mind competition, as we knew was healthy. 362 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,160 Our own relatives thought one bad apple was us. 363 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,520 I remember being so little that they had a special apple crate 364 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,040 for me to stand on with my name on it so I could reach the 365 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,400 microphone. Microphones didn't go down far 366 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,800 enough for kids my age. So many of my childhood years 367 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,360 went by that way with me standing on that Apple box 368 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,920 singing my heart out while other kids were outside playing. 369 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,680 OK, so we are going to stop there with our reading and get 370 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,320 into a little bit of discussion. Oh my gosh, there is so much to 371 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:03,120 discuss in this chapter already. I was struggling because my mind 372 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,840 was just racing with things I wanted to say and comment on. 373 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,640 If I paused every time I wanted to say something, if that were a 374 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,480 format I would try, you would hate me. 375 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,360 It would be terrible. So I am happy to now have the 376 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:24,240 chance to go back and make some commentary on this. 377 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,960 My goodness, so much I want to say about these early Motown 378 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,760 days and some of the revelations Michael gives us during this 379 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,200 section. So one thing I forgot to mention 380 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:40,200 is that Chapter 2 is titled The Promised Land, which makes a lot 381 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,000 of sense when we hear Michael talk about the transition from 382 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,600 Gary, IN to California. For those of our international 383 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,240 listeners and also US based listeners who just haven't been 384 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,800 to these places, I have fortunately been able to visit 385 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,600 both. And Gary, IN like many Midwest 386 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,840 towns and cities, especially those that don't have a lot of 387 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,960 money, that there's a lot of economic issues and crime and 388 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,360 things like that. Gary has a kind of sad dark 389 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,400 energy. Now, obviously in the 60s it may 390 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,040 have been a little bit different, but I know that of 391 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,840 course, it has a long history of a lot of struggle. 392 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,160 And in the winter time, especially in the the fall and 393 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:25,720 winter, it is dark and bleak and the sky is Gray and it's just, 394 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,680 you know, again, it is Northeast and Midwestern United States are 395 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,120 very much like that during the winter months. 396 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:39,160 So California, on the other hand, like Michael describes, is 397 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,600 always, almost always perpetually sunny, bright blue 398 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,880 sky, bright sun. It is warm. 399 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,240 LA is very close to the water in the ocean. 400 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,440 So it's a very, very different vibe. 401 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,400 The culture is also very, very different. 402 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,720 Now again, this may have changed more since the 1960s. 403 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,520 So I, I can't comment on that too much. 404 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,920 But there is a kind of brightness and lightness in a 405 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,040 lot of ways to even the the people in California versus in 406 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,240 the Northeast or the Midwest. So it's culturally very, very 407 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,520 different, not just in terms of like the weather and the 408 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,840 atmosphere, you know, So I understand LA, the promised 409 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,960 land, but I know so many people growing up who dreamt of going 410 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,480 to LA for various reasons, and I was kind of one of them. 411 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,840 So I certainly can appreciate what it would be like to have 412 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,600 these dreams come true when you're so young, as Michael and 413 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,000 his siblings were. So in these early pages, Michael 414 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,160 talks a little bit about his early interactions with Berry 415 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,880 Gordy and Berry saying and declaring very strongly, we are 416 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,960 going to make history. You are going to be stars, 417 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,440 You're going to break records. And he talked about how 418 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,800 meaningful that was to hear that from a really powerful, 419 00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,600 successful man and how much he believed it. 420 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,880 And it instantly made me think about how Michael has been that 421 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,680 person for a lot of people. I mean, I'm talking specifically 422 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,160 about different child stars or different up and coming pop 423 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,400 stars, people that he had some cases produced albums for or 424 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,320 stepped in with to support in different ways. 425 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,720 Families he had befriended, who he helped their kids get into 426 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,200 music and acting lessons and dance lessons and things. 427 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,200 You know, Michael was someone who told many of these people, 428 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,440 you can do amazing things, you can do amazing things and you 429 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,040 can make history and you can be successful if you work hard 430 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,040 enough. And I mean, Michael, truly, it 431 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,640 was that powerful man that was often encouraging and telling 432 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,840 people that they could do anything. 433 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,840 There are so many beautiful and positive examples of this from 434 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,360 child stars. There's actually a really sweet 435 00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:58,920 interview that the actress Jennifer Love Hewitt did as an 436 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,000 adult where she talks about how she worked with Michael in the 437 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,440 early 90s on a commercial for LA Gear, I think the the sneaker or 438 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,160 shoe company. And he had invited her and her 439 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,640 mother to Neverland. And I think he wasn't able to be 440 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,720 there or something. But they were supposed to then 441 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,440 go to some sort of charity fundraiser. 442 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,720 And he sent he sent a donation in the name of Jennifer Love 443 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,200 Hewitt when she was just a little girl. 444 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,760 And he told her at the time that it was because when you're 445 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,000 successful, it's your responsibility to pay it back. 446 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,320 And I think within that he was encouraging her and saying this 447 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,240 is something that you will be doing it later in your life when 448 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,160 you are successful. And this is part of what you 449 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,240 need to learn now when you're very young. 450 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,920 And she recalled this memory in a really beautiful and positive 451 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,880 way and very said very warm things about Michael in it. 452 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,000 And that's just, again, one example. 453 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,760 Anyway, it just it, it sometimes strikes me when I read these 454 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,440 pieces from Michael that like Michael became these people that 455 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,680 he so admired in a lot of ways, he became and exceeded those 456 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,560 people in in many capacities. And another example of this is 457 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,080 when later in the chapter, he talked about meeting Smokey 458 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,960 Robinson and commenting on, Oh my gosh, his hands were so soft. 459 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,800 And again, it's so cute because like, as crazy as it sounds in 460 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,840 the Michael Jackson fandom, how many times have you as a Michael 461 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,560 Jackson fan heard people say, what did he smell like? 462 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,960 You know, there's all these things that people just want to 463 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,880 know about him. And then if you ever meet a fan 464 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:40,040 who who met him, everyone tells their story and shares the the 465 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,480 details of what they remember about seeing him or interacting 466 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,280 with him or if they hugged him or whatever. 467 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,280 You hear all these details and it's really cute. 468 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:54,800 It actually made me think how Michael's early experiences of 469 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,320 being a fan of people that he met obviously stayed with him in 470 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,560 an empathetic way. So I don't just mean that he 471 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,040 stayed grounded or, you know, he remembered where he came from or 472 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,800 anything like that. Michael is so gracious toward 473 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,680 his fans, and he always was so gracious toward his fans, so 474 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:22,080 tolerant of insane behavior, honestly, so warm in response to 475 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,840 their love and interest in him. And on one hand, it's like, OK, 476 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,960 he was clearly, as he outlined in this chapter, clearly he was 477 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,200 trained on some level to be that way by Motown, as well as being 478 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,280 raised in just a really gracious, polite way by his 479 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,120 mother. But it goes beyond that because 480 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,920 it is clear that Michael empathizes and can relate to his 481 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,280 fans. He doesn't see himself the way 482 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,200 we see him, of course, but he knows and really remembers 483 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,960 distinctly how it feels to be in awe of someone and how it feels 484 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,800 to just touch their hand and be so enamored with what that felt 485 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,480 like. And I think the fact that he was 486 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,120 famous his entire life and never lost that ability to understand 487 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,440 that is kind of incredible. I think about that. 488 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:19,880 And the fact that even, like, as Michael got older into his, you 489 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,960 know, 20s, his 30s, even his 40s, he had people he deeply 490 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:30,480 admired. And he never lost sight of other 491 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,240 people being worthy of admiration. 492 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,760 And I think it's because he clearly never elevated himself 493 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,600 in his own mind as being better or more important than other 494 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,080 people. Because think about it in order 495 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,720 to like stay present of mind and empathizing with and being 496 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,880 tolerant of and having patience for your fans reacting to you in 497 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,800 a certain way, which obviously made his life very difficult. 498 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,320 Frankly, to have all that patience, it would require a 499 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:05,240 very present mind that keeps you kind of grounded in the sense 500 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,440 that like you remember and understand how they feel. 501 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,960 And not just remember because of he was 10 years old one time 502 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,480 meeting Smokey Robinson, but because throughout his entire 503 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,680 life, he maintained significant admiration and appreciation for 504 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,760 people who he considered great artists. 505 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,160 So I just think that that's super interesting. 506 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,920 I, I actually love that in this chapter, he talks about exactly 507 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,480 this. He says I am always excited when 508 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,280 I get a chance to meet someone whose work has affected me in 509 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,400 some way. Maybe I've read a book that has 510 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,720 touched me deeply or made me think about things that I 511 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,800 haven't focused on before. A certain song or style of 512 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,880 singing can excite me or move me to become a favorite that I'll 513 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,120 never tire of. Hearing a picture or painting 514 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,520 can reveal a universe in the same vein that an actor's 515 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,080 performance or a collective performance can transform me. 516 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,920 I just want to say I love that section for so many reasons. 517 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,000 I love, I think I mentioned this last week perhaps, but I, I love 518 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,640 that Michael does not shy away from honoring people that came 519 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,400 before him. But it isn't just, oh, I respect 520 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,560 this person. Michael is a super fan. 521 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:24,240 Michael understands fandom. He understands like a deep, 522 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,520 resounding respect and admiration and interest in a 523 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:33,600 person or people based on the way there are or their work has 524 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,240 affected or moved him. I appreciate this so much As a 525 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,360 person who feels and experiences art and every kind of creative 526 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,360 form that I engage with. I, I feel it very, very deeply. 527 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:52,640 And a lot of people are kind of embarrassed, I think to show how 528 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,760 much work effects them. But Michael was not. 529 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:01,000 Michael was so comfortable and I don't think it was even a 530 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,120 choice, but more just inevitable that he would be and stay that 531 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:07,920 way. And it, you know what it made me 532 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,760 think of, I think this is something I may have talked 533 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,520 about last season, but bear with me. 534 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,280 I thought of Michael's former manager, actually very briefly 535 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,520 was his manager in the 1980s, Howard Bloom. 536 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,480 And he wrote a book called Einstein, Michael Jackson and Me 537 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,560 or something along those lines. And the whole book is kind of 538 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,800 walking through his very illustrious and strange career, 539 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,640 both in science as well as in music, music management. 540 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,440 And in that he talks about meeting Michael Jackson in his 541 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,640 first time meeting him. And this was during the Thriller 542 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,840 era. So like, I think it was 1984 543 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,800 'cause it was leading up to the Victory Tour, he met Michael. 544 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,440 And he described Michael's reaction to a piece of art, 545 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,680 which was I think the artwork for an album cover they were 546 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,360 looking at have this incredible way of describing Michael's 547 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,080 reaction. Actually, I think I might just 548 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,840 play a short clip for you from an interview Howard Bloom did 549 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,400 because it really, really demonstrates what I'm talking 550 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,760 about here with Michael's significant appreciation of the 551 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,360 arts. So this is Howard Bloom talking 552 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,639 about meeting Michael Jackson. And he was the most remarkable 553 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:19,639 person I've ever met in my life. And when I tell people, Howard 554 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:24,719 Merkel, they don't believe me. He was, you know, you and I and 555 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,840 Jamie are on a certain level, and we don't know we're on a 556 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,000 certain level because we figured these are the range. 557 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,639 This is the range of humanity. If we go out and meet anybody on 558 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,400 the street or even anybody famous, I work with Buzz Aldrin 559 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,080 these days, what we're going to encounter is another person 560 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,320 pretty much like us. Sorry. 561 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:47,840 In Michael Jackson's case, he did not fit on this normal plane 562 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,120 at all. He was on a plane somewhere 563 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,000 where you've never seen a human being before. 564 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:58,760 So the first time I met him, we were at his brother Marlins pool 565 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,080 house. It's a little house with just 566 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,440 enough room for one big room on the 1st floor and another big 567 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,160 room on the 2nd floor with a little tiny staircase between 568 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:08,560 them. So we're in the middle of that. 569 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,960 We're in this room and Michael and I are standing next to each 570 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,000 other. So his elbow is at his left 571 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,360 elbow is at my right elbow, his left knee is at my right knee. 572 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,280 And we have a meeting with the art director from CBS and she 573 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,960 walks in with five of the most gorgeous portfolios you've ever 574 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,000 seen in your life, Hand carved cherry wood, hand carved 575 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,080 leather. And these are from guys I know 576 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,120 because I was, I started in pop culture in the art business and 577 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,520 these were my legendary competitors. 578 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:46,560 And, and Michael opens the first page of the first portfolio and 579 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,280 he gets a square inch into it, a postage stamp size piece into 580 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,760 it. And he goes, oh, and his knees 581 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,120 begin to buckle and he gets another 2 square inches into it. 582 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,360 Just lifts the page a little bit further. 583 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,960 Oh, he lifts it an even further Oh, Michael is seeing the 584 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,040 infinite in the the, in things that even the artist didn't see 585 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,760 it with such Infinity as Michael is seeing it. 586 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:18,800 And by the time he gets to the full page, he's having a full 587 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,480 scale aesthetic orgasm. I have never seen anything like 588 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:24,920 this in my life. And remember, the first 2 rules 589 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,840 of science are the truth at any price, including the price of 590 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,760 your life. And look at things run under 591 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,600 right under your nose as if you've never seen them before. 592 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,440 And then proceed from there. Michael is seeing the infinite 593 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,760 in the tiniest of things. And you've never seen a human 594 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,600 with this degree of awe, wonder and surprise anywhere in your 595 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,760 life. And I will never see another 596 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,200 human like that again in my lifetime. 597 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,640 Michael was beyond belief. So I have to tell you because I 598 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,600 I cannot remember if I told you this in Season 1, but I actually 599 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,240 met Howard Bloom in New York City last summer. 600 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,000 It was very happenstance, very weird. 601 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,800 I saw him in a park. I reached out to him on social 602 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:07,800 media and was like, hey, will you talk to me? 603 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,800 And he agreed, and we took a walk together for two hours and 604 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,280 talked about Michael Jackson. It was a pretty wild experience 605 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,120 and very cool. But anyway, he tells the story 606 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,880 exactly the same way. Now, I had obviously a million 607 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,760 probing questions, but he that I believe this is truly what 608 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,440 happened because I have heard him tell the story so many times 609 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,640 and it is he says it the same way. 610 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,920 But when he was talking to me, he got actually a little bit 611 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,800 emotional when he was talking about this because he's still 612 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,920 Howard. I mean, still seemed completely, 613 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:45,560 completely in awe of his observation of Michael Jackson 614 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:49,520 and the way I mean, he was in the way he talked about Michael. 615 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,040 He was completely in awe of him still and it felt incredibly 616 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,560 sincere in in Howard Bloom is an interesting character, but like 617 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,760 when I met him, I genuinely felt a, a really a real sincerity 618 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,520 from him and how he thought about Michael and personal 619 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,520 responsibility he felt about Michael and regrets he had about 620 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,440 his relationship with Michael and and whatnot. 621 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,560 Anyway, it was a really interesting experience. 622 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,960 But I bring this up just because again, I I love to emphasize 623 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:23,040 this side of Michael, who was not just a superstar performer, 624 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,880 an incredible artist and talent and genius and all of that, but 625 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,240 he was a human being that on a very base level had an extremely 626 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:37,760 profound appreciation for art and creation and creativity. 627 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:44,720 I think all of those reasons are part of why he was so grateful 628 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:50,160 to his fandom and so gracious to his fans and had a mutual 629 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,960 respect for his fans, because I think he genuinely felt touched 630 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,880 that the way he feels about great artists are how people 631 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,080 feel about him. I mean, he would often say, I'm 632 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,520 just grateful the public enjoy what I do, which sounds like 633 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,840 such a humble and like almost like really could not be really 634 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,680 how you feel. But I really think it was true 635 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:19,400 with Michael because if you know who he was on that level, for 636 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,640 someone to be moved by your art to him was a really, really big 637 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,280 deal. So anyway, I don't need to keep 638 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,920 going on about that. But it's one of my favorite 639 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,600 things about Michael, that passionate intensity he has 640 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,960 about life and about everything. That's one of my favorite things 641 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,560 about him. So I I don't want to bypass 642 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,240 that. Anyway, one more comment I want 643 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,080 to make about the early part of this section we read today, 644 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,960 because the second-half is mostly about working with 645 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,360 Motown. He talks about his relationship 646 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:49,320 with Diana Ross. So if you listened to last 647 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,440 season and you listen to all of it, then you know, you know, I 648 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,520 honestly just want to sit here and quietly sip tea or 649 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,400 something, You know, whenever we talk about Diana Ross now what I 650 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,760 will say. Is that Diana was clearly an 651 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,200 incredibly important figure in Michael's life. 652 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,520 He talks about it here. He talks about the role she 653 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,640 played, exposing him to art, spending time with him, being a 654 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,960 very maternal figure to him when he didn't have access to his own 655 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,680 mother, and how influential she was to him. 656 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,120 But he also goes on to describe her as my mother, my lover and 657 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:35,920 my sister, which is a quote that is referred to often in the 658 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,920 community where there is, of course, a lot of suspicion about 659 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,200 Michael's ultimate relationship with Diana Ross. 660 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,920 As he became an adult and they spent time together. 661 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,040 And he would openly talk about being in love with her and 662 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,160 wanting to marry her and would dedicate songs to her that were 663 00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,800 very clearly about love or heartbreak or inability to be 664 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,200 with someone. And, you know, there was, 665 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,480 there's a lot. And I'm not going to start 666 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:10,480 quoting, you know, the forums or the, you know, all in my own 667 00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,640 personal conversations about this because that's not what 668 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,120 this podcast is about. The podcast is about reading 669 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,880 what Michael actually wrote and and contending with that. 670 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,280 But I will say, given that there's so much suspicion about 671 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,080 what their relationship ultimately became and you know, 672 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,440 how it evolved over the course of his life and as he matured, 673 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,520 it's a little weird to read this section for me because I talk so 674 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,440 often with friends and in the thank community, I read so much 675 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,840 about their relationship dynamic and there's a lot there. 676 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,200 So I, I guess I'll just say this, I am grateful that during 677 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,160 a time and Michael didn't have access to his mother and so much 678 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,880 in his life was changing, that he had a really solid figure in 679 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,440 his life that cared for him and spent time with him and 680 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,520 encouraged him. He obviously saw this as a very 681 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,800 positive thing in his life. That's, that's all I really want 682 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,680 to say about it at this point. I think we do touch upon Diana a 683 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,480 little bit more in later parts of the book, but perhaps I will 684 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,640 save more commentary on this for then as well As for the end 685 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,720 review of the book itself. I hope I didn't say anything 686 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,080 super controversial there. I was really playing it 687 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,080 politically as much as I could. Anyway, let's move on. 688 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,520 So something I think is really cool in learning about Michael's 689 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,840 years with Motown is learning about how the entire system of 690 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:37,280 Motown worked and how he was trained to appear in public and 691 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:42,640 in the world, and what pressure existed to represent Motown. 692 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:46,000 But also, I would imagine by extension, the African American 693 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,440 community in the United States to the world. 694 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,800 And part of that involved media training and lessons and manners 695 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,000 and grammar in a certain kind of schooling and being taught how 696 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,400 to respond to questions. And, you know, it's, it's 697 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,120 interesting because I feel a lot of mixed feelings about that. 698 00:43:06,240 --> 00:43:11,360 Like on one hand it makes me sad because a 10 year old should not 699 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,000 have to be thinking about this stuff. 700 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,280 I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great for a child to learn 701 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,680 manners and you know how to speak and things like that. 702 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:24,160 But in terms of like the control of how to almost create a 703 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,880 divide, this is who I am in public and this is who I am in 704 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,840 private. Now, all of us as adults do that 705 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:33,680 to some degree. We have different versions of 706 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,520 ourselves with different people. I don't think it is a crisis 707 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,880 that he had to do this, but he did it to such an extreme from 708 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:48,000 such a young age with his own success, his family's success 709 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,120 and all the pressure of the corporation on him to make sure 710 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:58,800 he was doing this successfully. And that is hard. 711 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,760 That's a lot of pressure and doing this. 712 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,720 I think I this is a notable and important thing doing this pre 713 00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:12,040 puberty, I think is part of what makes this so uncertain to me 714 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,560 about if this was a good or a bad thing for Michael. 715 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,160 Because pre puberty is when children's are children are like 716 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:21,240 the most free. But then I think going through 717 00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:25,560 puberty, you start to figure out like who who you are on a on 718 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,320 another level, Like who, what, what role do you play in 719 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,400 society? Like how are people perceiving 720 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,360 you? How do you respond to those 721 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,120 perceptions? You know, that's such a 722 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,080 difficult time of life. So to prior to getting to do 723 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,880 that sort of personal exploration on your own, being 724 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:46,400 taught and trained in such an intense way how to be, I think 725 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,560 it would just be very confusing. But then on the flip side, I 726 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,120 have this this part of me that is so intrigued by this because 727 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,760 on one hand, I can say, you know, Motown was kind of 728 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,760 stripping their authenticity to some degree, or they were trying 729 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,520 to present this like perfect image and whatnot. 730 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:09,360 And that the problem is like, we shouldn't be looking for our 731 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,000 celebrities and whatever to be our role models. 732 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,720 But I feel like we're in today's world, we sort of like embrace 733 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:21,720 this quote, UN quote authenticity in our superstars 734 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:24,000 and our artists because they use social media to connect with 735 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,640 their fans. And there's this perception that 736 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,920 they are being more authentic or real, less scripted and all 737 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,720 that. Again, it's a perception. 738 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,880 I don't think it's the reality. I think it's the way it's, you 739 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,400 know, portrayed to us. My point is there's this that 740 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,880 this dialogue that exists today as if you are somehow able to 741 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,520 prevent yourself, especially as a child or a kid or a teen, from 742 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,160 being influenced by the people that you are watching and 743 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,560 listening to. Whereas back then, I feel like, 744 00:45:57,240 --> 00:45:59,160 you know, people weren't in denial of the fact that that's 745 00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,320 just what was going to happen, whether or not they should do 746 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,560 it, OK, But that's just what was going to happen. 747 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,480 You know, there was, there's no way around it. 748 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,520 Like you spend time watching and listening to you and looking up 749 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,080 to people, you are going to be influenced by them. 750 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,720 You, you can't help it. It's like when you spend time 751 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:19,240 with a person and you notice after a while of spending time 752 00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:22,800 with them that you start to pick up on certain phrases they say 753 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,920 or even certain characteristics. I remember in college I started 754 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,920 somehow copying this girl's laugh. 755 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,680 I don't do it anymore, which is great, but it wasn't even 756 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,600 intentional. It just started to happen 757 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,200 because I would spend time with this person. 758 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:41,560 And I think it's the same way. So we can talk about how we 759 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,600 should and are responsible to separate ourselves and not be 760 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,360 influenced. But is that realistic? 761 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,800 I don't know. It puts a lot of pressure on 762 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,920 people, especially young artists like Michael was, to be a role 763 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,000 model for something that they themselves aren't really 764 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,920 choosing and don't really, we don't even really know if they 765 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,440 personally align with. So there's something strange 766 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,040 about it to me. I guess that was kind of an all 767 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:13,560 over way of saying I love the actual effect of this media 768 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,320 training on the Jackson 5 as well as artists back at that 769 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,040 time period. I think that we have records of 770 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:26,080 artists behaving in really kind of respectful and respectable 771 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,280 ways. Not I mean not across the board, 772 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,480 but just generally speaking. There are records of that which 773 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,960 is really cool to be able to look back on, but there is a 774 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,080 part of us that is not able to really see who they really were 775 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,040 because of it. So, you know, it's a complicated 776 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,160 thing to me, but I find it fascinating because when you 777 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,640 think about the fact that Michael got this kind of 778 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,480 training when he was 10 years old, eleven years old, and it 779 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,920 continued. Then the person we go on to see 780 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,400 become the superstar Michael Jackson, who always maintained a 781 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,840 kind of distance and interviews and Uber politeness, Uber 782 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,680 respectability. We see him not reveal very much 783 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,640 and keep so much close to the chest, but then be explosive as 784 00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,240 a performer. And it makes me wonder how much 785 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:16,440 of your your true self gets funnelled into your performance 786 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,240 and your performance style when you're kind of muzzled your 787 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:23,000 whole life about what you're supposed to say and how you're 788 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:27,320 supposed to be, you know? Anyway, let's get more into some 789 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,480 of these Motown moments here before we wrap up to close. 790 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:35,240 So they talk about recording. I want you back, Oh my goodness. 791 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,000 I want you back as such a great song. 792 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,440 And every time I think about I want you back, I think about 793 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,320 when I was a little girl listening to I, I have this 794 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,840 really strong memory of being on the beach with my family and 795 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,360 there was a radio playing I want you back. 796 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:53,600 And I think ABC, maybe it's a little tape of the Jackson 5. 797 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,280 And I remember specifically thinking like, 'cause I was a 798 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,400 little kid, I was like 6. I remember like thing like, oh, 799 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,840 I like that boy that's singing and my mom telling me, oh, 800 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,600 that's Michael Jackson. And I was like, no, Michael 801 00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,360 Jackson's old. This was probably like 1992 or 802 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,040 1994 or something. And she's like, no, this is when 803 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,520 he was a little boy. And I remember having this 804 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:22,360 realization, oh, this is not a little boy that I can meet 805 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,120 someday. This is a little boy that is now 806 00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,400 a grown up. And it made me really sad. 807 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,040 I don't know if my mom knows that actually that story, but I 808 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,240 remember that really well. And I always think about that 809 00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,800 when I I think about these early hits because I can go anywhere 810 00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:41,400 and I can, I probably hear I want You back somewhere in 811 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,320 public like once a week. I hear it constantly on US 812 00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,040 radio. It is very popular still. 813 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,160 But I don't know, it's just kind of like cute to hear about the 814 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,000 whole story of how they came to be. 815 00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,080 Although I'll admit, I felt a little sad for little Michael 816 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:57,480 being proud of his song and then having to stay up until 1:00 AM 817 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,720 recording and he's falling asleep in the car on the way 818 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,680 home. I get a sense that Michael, in 819 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,920 crafting this, did struggle because on one hand, he wants to 820 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,720 represent, hey, there were really good parts of this. 821 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,160 I learned so much. I've heard so many people from 822 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:20,880 Motown, like including Smokey Robinson and Berry Gordy, refer 823 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,520 to Michael as like a sponge. He soaked up every bit of 824 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,880 knowledge there was. He asked a million questions. 825 00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,240 He watched everyone. He was obsessed with learning 826 00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,280 and could sustain that level of attention and focus. 827 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,720 I mean, think about a little kid being able to be in the studio 828 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:41,520 for like 15 hours, like, like, that's crazy, you know? 829 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,800 But he did. And so I think about that 830 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,000 because for Michael, that was all positive. 831 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,280 I mean, he said I still work this way today when he was 832 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,680 regarding Berry Gordy's perfectionism. 833 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,200 I still work this way today. I still employ these tactics 834 00:50:56,240 --> 00:51:01,000 when I'm recording. But then he Peppers in things 835 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,480 like, and then I was falling asleep while driving home. 836 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,320 Or how he ends this section, which is so many of my childhood 837 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:14,040 years went by that way with me standing on that Apple box 838 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,440 singing my heart out while other kids were outside playing. 839 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,520 You know, it's almost like Michael doesn't want us to 840 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,400 forget that there was a cost to these things. 841 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,400 And it makes me think about how, I mean, one of the reasons I, I 842 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,080 may have mentioned this in the first like episode 0 or 843 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,760 whatever, one of the reasons that a lot of people don't 844 00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:40,600 recommend publishing A memoir until you're like at least in 845 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:45,840 your 30s and often later is preferable is because before 846 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,520 then and even after, of course, you're still really coming to 847 00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,520 terms with your childhood. You're still learning how to 848 00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:56,600 hold people accountable for things that may have hurt you. 849 00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,920 And in Michael's case, you know, he's, I think he's sort of 850 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,320 coming to terms at this point. This was the mid 1980s that he 851 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,280 was doing these interviews. He's in his 20s. 852 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,840 He's still coming to terms with the fact that he lost a great 853 00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,840 deal in his life. You know, I think he was aware 854 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,520 of it. Of course he was aware of it. 855 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,680 He had talked about it. It's not like he had hidden 856 00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:22,160 that. He had some concerns about that. 857 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,800 But you really start to hear him talk about this in the 90s in 858 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,920 the Oprah interview. He talks about this really 859 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,280 openly, the song Childhood, which of course he released as a 860 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,160 way to try to appeal to the public's understanding of him as 861 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,400 being a person who had lost his childhood and was complicated 862 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,520 relationship to childhood. Because of this. 863 00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:48,240 It's it's unfortunate sometimes I think that his one and only 864 00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:52,880 autobiography was published when he was only like 29 or 30. 865 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,840 You know, it's unfortunate because how much more would he 866 00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,040 say? And not just because he'd be 867 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,800 comfortable saying it, but because he would actually 868 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,640 understand his own life differently. 869 00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,200 Because that's the key to me here is that it's not that you 870 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,360 necessarily become braver as you get older, although I do think 871 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,640 you do. I think it's also that you come 872 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,560 to a greater understanding or, or a more accurate understanding 873 00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:21,280 of what was really going on. And so in Michael's case, I 874 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,080 think that we're seeing those signs of him coming to terms 875 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,600 with the reality of his life and the reality of all he lost. 876 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,200 And struggling to find that balance between how do you show 877 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,440 gratitude and be grateful for things that you have, that you 878 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,800 genuinely are grateful you have, while also remarking on the 879 00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,920 things that were damaging or troublesome or not fair for you 880 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:49,080 in some way or another too. It also shows to me tonally, 881 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,160 perhaps a little bit like somebody really trying to remind 882 00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,160 a public who is very willing to forget the sacrifice Michael had 883 00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,800 made that's very willing to forget he's a human being. 884 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,440 This reminder that, hey, I am a human being. 885 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,120 Remember, I was a kid doing this. 886 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,040 I was a kid who couldn't keep his eyes open in the back seat 887 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,600 of a car and he had to stand on an apple crate to reach the 888 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,480 microphone stand because it wasn't designed for someone as 889 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,160 small as me. So like I said, he does a lot. 890 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,440 It's like 15 pages and I've talked for like 40 minutes. 891 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,160 The only other thing I want to comment on here is that in this 892 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,560 section there have been some photos throughout the book that 893 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,200 are in black and white, which are really great stills and 894 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,840 stuff from his Motown days and moments and Gary and things. 895 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,320 But this section, at least in my print copy, I think this should 896 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,560 be the case. In most of the copies there are 897 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:41,680 several pages of glossy photos. There are photos of Michael 898 00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,200 photo shoots for the bad tour or in that time period. 899 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,120 There's performance photos of him. 900 00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:52,000 There's stills from the Thriller music video shoot. 901 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,600 There's a really, really cool close up photo. 902 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:58,280 It goes across the whole 2 pages of Michael putting on his hat 903 00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,440 and his glove and like you can't see his face at all. 904 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:04,560 It's a very cool like VV tour era photo. 905 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:09,200 There's a photo with Michael with Diana Ross at the We're the 906 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,880 World recording all these beautiful glossy photos. 907 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,080 And I talked about this a little bit in my Dancing the Dream 908 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,520 discussion. But I do think there's something 909 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:23,600 to be said for how valuable it would have been to, as a fan at 910 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,640 this time, receive an own, a book that had glossy, high 911 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,040 quality photos of Michael Jackson where you couldn't just 912 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,280 Google it, You couldn't just look on your phone, you know, in 913 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,320 your gallery or whatever and look at photos of him. 914 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,680 It was actually quite a valuable thing to have access to. 915 00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,560 So I do love seeing those photos. 916 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:46,200 I will refrain from commenting on my thoughts about the photos 917 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,480 because you don't need to hear me talk about how beautiful 918 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,720 Michael Jackson is, at least not for the thousandth time. 919 00:55:51,720 --> 00:55:55,480 I've talked about this a lot in general, but he's beautiful, OK? 920 00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,040 My God, these photos, he's gorgeous, and I can't, what else 921 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:00,400 can I say? It has to be said. 922 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:07,360 Anyway, that brings us truly and completely to the end of this 923 00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,560 episode. I had a lot of fun today. 924 00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,720 Maybe we're getting more into the story. 925 00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:13,200 I'm getting excited. I don't know. 926 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:14,640 This was really a good time for me. 927 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:19,000 So I hope that you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, and I 928 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,440 look forward to continuing reading Chapter 2 of Moonwalk 929 00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,640 next week. So for now, I wish you all a 930 00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:31,600 beautiful week and a weekend, and I will talk to you all again 931 00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:34,680 very, very soon. Take care.