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Well, hello, friends. 
Thank you so much for joining me

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for another episode of Reading 
Michael Jackson. 

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I am your host, Lena, and I'm so
happy to be here with you to 

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kick off the final chapter of 
Moonwalk. 

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Oh my God, can't believe we're 
already here. 

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We have 4 episodes, official 
episodes rather left of this 

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season. 
These next three episodes will 

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be covering the final chapter, 
Chapter 6, entitled All You Need

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is Love, All I Need is Love and 
Michael Jackson. 

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Isn't that one and the same 
Anyway, So I would like to spare

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you a very long introduction 
this week and try our best to 

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just get, you know, right into 
the action of this chapter. 

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So in our previous episode and 
previous Chapter 5, we covered 

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primarily the Thriller era in 
terms of the creation of the 

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Thriller album, the music videos
and short films and Michael 

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winning Grammy Awards. 
There's a lot still from that 

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era we haven't covered yet. 
And it's a little wild to think 

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that everything we know that's 
left between, say, 1984 and 

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1987, there's a lot left to 
cover in one chapter. 

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So I'm very curious to see how 
Michael approaches this. 

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I say as if I haven't read this 
book several times, but in all 

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reality, it's been a while, you 
know? 

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And doing this in depth reading 
with all of you certainly is a 

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different experience for me than
when I've just read this on my 

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own. 
I hope it is for you as well. 

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We'll get started very shortly. 
But up at the top, I did just 

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want to mention something. 
As we are getting closer and 

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closer to the end of Season 2 of
Reading Michael Jackson, as well

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as getting closer and closer to 
the biopic, I would love to hear

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from you. 
What would you like to see me 

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cover in Season 3 of Reading 
Michael Jackson? 

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The first two seasons were a bit
obvious, right? 

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I mean, Michael wrote two books,
Dancing the Dream in Moonwalk, 

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and these first two seasons were
the opportunity to talk about 

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them. 
But what else is there? 

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There's a ton more Michael Rowe 
songs. 

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He created the ideas and and in 
some sense directed music videos

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and short films. 
He worked on Captain EO, you 

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know, he worked on so many 
different things and he has 

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connections to so many things as
well as he participated in 

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interviews throughout his life, 
has had millions of books 

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written about him from people 
from all walks of life and 

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backgrounds and connections to 
him. 

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So there are a lot of potential 
directions to go in for season 

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3. 
So I beseech you all, I would 

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love to hear from anyone with a 
suggestion for what you 

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personally would like to see me 
cover in season 3. 

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If you recall, if you were here 
last season, I asked this 

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question so many times and no 
one ever emailed me about it. 

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But this season I've actually 
received a number of emails with

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suggestions for next season, so 
I'm hoping to open that 

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conversation up a bit more. 
If you are interested in sharing

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any ideas that you would love to
see me cover and talk about, 

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please e-mail me at 
readingmichaeljackson@yahoo.com.

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You're also always welcome to 
e-mail me there with thoughts on

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the episodes, comments, 
questions, anything at all. 

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So with that said, that is going
to wrap up and closeout. 

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Our intro isn't that crazy 
short. 

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It won't be if I keep talking. 
So without further ado, let's 

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get into Chapter 6 from 
Moonwalk. 

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If you are following along with 
me today, I will be reading from

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pages 2:35 to 2:52. 
So now is the time that I invite

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you to relax, get comfortable, 
get cozy, and join me for this 

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continued reading of Moonwalk. 
Chapter 6 All You Need is Love. 

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I had planned to spend most of 
1984 working on some movie ideas

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I had, but those plans got 
sidetracked. 

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First, in January, I was burned 
on the set of a Pepsi commercial

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I was shooting with my brothers.
The reason for the fire was 

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stupidity, pure and simple. 
We were shooting at night and I 

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was supposed to come down a 
staircase with magnesium flash 

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bombs going off on either side 
of me and just behind me. 

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It seemed so simple. 
I was to walk down the stairs 

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and these bombs would blow up 
behind me. 

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We did several takes that were 
wonderfully timed. 

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The lightning effects from the 
bombs were great. 

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Only later did I find out that 
these bombs were only two feet 

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away from either side of my 
head, which was a total 

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disregard of the safety 
regulations. 

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I was supposed to stand in the 
middle of a magnesium explosion,

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2 feet on either side. 
Then Bob Giraldi, the director, 

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came to me and said, Michael, 
you're going down too early. 

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We want to see you up there, up 
on the stairs. 

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When the lights come on, we want
to reveal that you're there. 

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So wait. 
So I waited. 

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The bombs went off on either 
side of my head and the sparks 

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set my hair on fire. 
I was dancing down this ramp and

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turning around, spinning, not 
knowing I was on fire. 

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Suddenly I felt my hands 
reflexively going to my head in 

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an attempt to smother the 
flames. 

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I fell down and just tried to 
shake the flames out. 

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Jermaine turned around and saw 
me on the ground just after the 

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explosions had gone off, and he 
thought I had been shot by 

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someone in the crowd because we 
were shooting in front of a big 

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audience. 
That's what it looked like to 

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him. 
Miko Brando, who works for me, 

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was the first person to reach 
me. 

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After that, it was chaos. 
It was crazy. 

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No film could properly capture 
the drama of what went on that 

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night. 
The crowd was screaming. 

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Someone shouted get some ice. 
There were frantic running 

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sounds. 
People were yelling, oh, no. 

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The emergency truck came up. 
And before they put me in, I saw

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the Pepsi executives huddled 
together in a corner, looking 

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terrified. 
I remember the medical people 

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putting me on a cot, and the 
guys from Pepsi were so scared 

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they couldn't even bring 
themselves to check on me. 

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Meanwhile, I was kind of 
detached. 

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Despite the terrible pain, I was
watching all the drama unfold. 

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Later they told me I was in 
shock. 

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But I remember enjoying the ride
to the hospital because I never 

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thought I'd ride in an ambulance
with the sirens wailing. 

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It was one of those things I'd 
always wanted to do when I was 

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growing up. 
When we got there, they told me 

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there were news crews outside, 
so I asked for my glove. 

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There's a famous shot of me 
waving from the stretcher with 

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my glove on. 
Later one of the doctors told me

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that it was a miracle I was 
alive. 

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One of the firemen had mentioned
that in most cases your clothes 

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catch on fire, in which case 
your whole face can be 

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disfigured or you can die. 
That's it. 

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I had third degree burns on the 
back of my head that almost went

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through to my skull. 
So I had a lot of problems with 

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it, but I was very lucky. 
What we now know is that the 

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incident created a lot of 
publicity for the commercial. 

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They sold more Pepsi than ever 
before, and they came back to me

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later and offered me the biggest
commercial endorsement fee in 

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history. 
It was so unprecedented that it 

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went into the Guinness Book of 
World Records. 

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Pepsi and I worked together on 
another commercial called The 

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Kid, and I gave them problems by
limiting the shots of me because

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I felt the shots they were 
asking for. 

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It didn't work well. 
Later, when the commercial was a

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success, they told me I had been
right. 

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I still remember how scared 
those Pepsi executives looked 

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the night of the fire. 
They thought that my getting 

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burned would leave a bad taste 
in the mouth of every kid in 

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America who drank Pepsi. 
They knew I could have sued 

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them, and I could have, but I 
was real nice about it. 

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Really nice. 
They gave me $1.5 million, which

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I immediately donated to the 
Michael Jackson Burn Center. 

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I wanted to do something because
I was so moved by the other burn

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patients I met while I was in 
the hospital. 

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Then there was the Victory Tour.
I did 55 shows with my brothers 

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over the course of five months. 
I didn't want to go on the 

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Victory Tour and I fought 
against it. 

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I felt the wisest thing for me 
would be not to do the tour, but

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my brothers wanted to do it and 
I did it for them. 

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So I told myself that since I 
was committed to doing this, I 

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might as well put my soul into 
it. 

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When it came down to the actual 
tour, I was outvoted on a number

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of issues. 
But you don't think when you're 

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on stage, you just deliver. 
My goal for the Victory Tour was

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to give each performance 
everything I could. 

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I hoped people might come to see
me who didn't even like me. 

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I hoped they might hear about 
the show and want to see what's 

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going on. 
I wanted incredible word of 

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mouth response to the show so a 
wide range of people could come 

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and see us. 
Word of mouth is the best 

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publicity. 
Nothing beats it. 

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If someone I trust comes to me 
and tells me something is great,

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I'm sold. 
I felt very powerful in those 

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days of Victory. 
I felt on top of the world. 

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I felt determined. 
That tour was like, we're a 

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mountain. 
We've come to share our music 

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with you. 
We have something we want to 

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tell you. 
At the beginning of the show, we

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rose out of the stage and came 
down these stairs. 

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The opening was dramatic and 
bright and captured the whole 

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feeling of the show. 
When the lights came on and they

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saw us, the roof would come off 
the place. 

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It was a nice feeling playing 
with my brothers again. 

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It gave us a chance to relive 
our days as the Jackson 5 and 

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the Jacksons. 
We were all together again. 

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Jermaine had come back and we 
were riding a wave of 

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popularity. 
It was the biggest tour any 

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group had ever done in huge 
outdoor stadiums. 

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But I was disappointed with the 
tour from the beginning. 

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I had wanted to move the world 
like it had never been moved. 

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I wanted to present something 
that would make people say, wow,

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that's wonderful. 
The response we got was 

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wonderful and the fans were 
great, but I became unhappy with

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our show. 
I didn't have the time or the 

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opportunity to perfect it the 
way I wanted to. 

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I was disappointing in the 
staging of Billie Jean. 

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I wanted it to be so much more 
than it was. 

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I didn't like the lighting and I
never got my steps quite the way

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I wanted them. 
It killed me to have to accept 

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these things and settle for 
doing it the way I did. 

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There have been times right 
before a show when certain 

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things were bothering me. 
Business or personal problems, I

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would think. 
I don't know how to get through 

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this. 
I don't know how I'm going to 

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get through the show. 
I can't perform like this. 

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But once I got to the side of 
the stage, something happens. 

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The rhythm starts and the lights
hit me and the problems 

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disappear. 
This has happened so many times.

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The thrill of performing just 
takes over. 

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It's like God saying, yes you 
can, yes you can, just wait, 

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wait till you hear this, wait 
till you see this. 

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And the backbeat gets into my 
backbone and it vibrates and it 

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just takes me. 
Sometimes I almost lose control.

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And the musicians say what is he
doing? 

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And they start following me. 
You change the whole schedule of

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a piece, you stop and you just 
take over from scratch and do a 

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whole other thing. 
The song takes you in another 

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direction. 
There was a part of the show on 

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the Victory Tour where I was 
doing the scatting theme and the

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audience was repeating what I 
said. 

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I'd say Da Dee, Da Dee, and 
they'd say Da Dee, da Dee. 

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There've been times when I've 
done that and they would start 

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stomping. 
And when the whole audience is 

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doing that, it sounds like an 
earthquake. 

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00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,760
Oh, it's a great feeling to be 
able to do that with all those 

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people, whole stadiums, and 
they're all doing the same thing

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you're doing. 
It's the greatest feeling in the

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world. 
You look out into the audience 

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and see toddlers and teens and 
grandparents and people in their

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20s and 30s. 
Everybody is swaying. 

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Their hands are up and they're 
all singing. 

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You ask. 
The house lights come on and you

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see their faces and you say hold
hands and they hold hands and 

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you say stand up or clap. 
And they do. 

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They're enjoying themselves, and
they'll do whatever you tell 

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them. 
They love it and it's so 

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00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240
beautiful. 
All the races of people are 

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together doing this. 
At times like that, I say look 

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00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,680
around you, look at yourselves, 
look, look around you, look at 

228
00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:14,840
what you've done. 
Oh, it's so beautiful, very 

229
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,600
powerful. 
Those are great moments. 

230
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,160
The Victory Tour was my first 
chance to be exposed to the 

231
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,240
Michael Jackson fans since 
Thriller had come out two years 

232
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,320
earlier. 
There were some strange 

233
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,520
reactions. 
I'd bump into people in the 

234
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,600
hallways and they go, Nah, that 
can't be him, he wouldn't be 

235
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,800
here. 
I was baffled, and I'd ask 

236
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,240
myself, why wouldn't I be? 
I'm on Earth somewhere. 

237
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,880
I've got to be somewhere at any 
given time, why not here? 

238
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,560
Some fans imagine you to be 
almost an illusion, this thing 

239
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:49,560
that doesn't exist. 
When they see you, they feel 

240
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:54,040
it's a miracle or something. 
I've had fans ask me if I use 

241
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,720
the bathroom. 
I mean, it gets embarrassing. 

242
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,520
They just lose touch with the 
fact that you're like them 

243
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,880
because they get so excited. 
But I can understand it because 

244
00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,120
I'd feel the same way if, for 
instance, I could have met Walt 

245
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,800
Disney or Charlie Chaplin. 
Kansas City opened the tour. 

246
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,320
It was Victory's first night. 
We were walking by the hotel 

247
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,680
pool in the evening, and Frank 
Dileo lost his balance and fell 

248
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:20,520
in. 
People saw this and started to 

249
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,680
get excited. 
Some of us were kind of 

250
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,400
embarrassed, but I was laughing.
He wasn't hurt and he looked so 

251
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,240
surprised. 
We jumped over a low wall and 

252
00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,840
found ourselves on the street 
without any security. 

253
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,120
People didn't seem to be able to
believe that we were just 

254
00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,080
walking around on the street 
like that. 

255
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,480
They gave us a wide berth. 
Later, when we returned to the 

256
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,800
hotel, Bill Bray, who has headed
my security team since I was a 

257
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,360
child, just shook his head and 
laughed as we recounted our 

258
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,040
adventures. 
Bill is very careful and 

259
00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,840
immensely professional in his 
job. 

260
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:54,640
Don't worry about things after 
the fact. 

261
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,640
He travels with me everywhere 
and occasionally. 

262
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,560
He's my only companion of short 
trips. 

263
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,560
I can't imagine life without 
Bill. 

264
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,120
He's warm and funny and 
absolutely in love with life. 

265
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,640
He's a great man. 
When the tour was in Washington 

266
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,280
DC, I was out in our hotel 
balcony with Frank, who has a 

267
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,200
great sense of humor and enjoys 
playing pranks himself. 

268
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,080
We were teasing one another and 
I started pulling $100 bills 

269
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,080
from his pockets and throwing 
them to people who are walking 

270
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,320
down below. 
This almost caused a riot. 

271
00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,360
He was trying to stop me, but we
were both laughing. 

272
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,600
It reminded me of the pranks my 
brothers and I used to pull on 

273
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,640
tour. 
Frank sent our security people 

274
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,840
downstairs to try and find any 
undiscovered money in the 

275
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,920
bushes. 
In Jacksonville, the local 

276
00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,560
police almost killed us in a 
traffic accident during the four

277
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,760
block drive from the hotel to 
the stadium. 

278
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,400
Later, in another part of 
Florida, when the old tour 

279
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,080
boredom set in that I described 
earlier, I played a little trick

280
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,200
on Frank. 
I asked him to come up to my 

281
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,200
suite. 
When he came in, I offered him 

282
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,160
some watermelon, which was lying
on table across the room. 

283
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,640
Frank went over to pick up a 
piece and tripped over my boa 

284
00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,320
constrictor, Muscles, who was on
the road with me. 

285
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,760
Muscles is harmless, but Frank 
hates snakes and proceeded to 

286
00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,480
scream and yell. 
I started chasing him around the

287
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,920
room with the boa. 
Frank got the upper hand. 

288
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,920
However, he panicked, ran for 
the room and grabbed the 

289
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,800
security guard's gun. 
He was going to shoot Muscles, 

290
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,160
but the guard calmed him down. 
Later he said all he could think

291
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,320
of was I've got to get that 
snake. 

292
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,960
I've found that a lot of tough 
men are afraid of snakes. 

293
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,280
We were locked in hotels all 
over America, just like in the 

294
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,360
old days. 
Me and Jermaine or me and Randy 

295
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,920
would get up to our old tricks, 
taking buckets of water and 

296
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,160
pouring them off hotel balconies
on to people eating in the 

297
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,280
atriums far below. 
We were up so high the water was

298
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,280
just missed. 
By the time it reached them. 

299
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,760
It was just like the old days. 
Bored in the hotels, locked away

300
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,800
from fans for our own 
protection, unable to go 

301
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,280
anywhere without massive 
security. 

302
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,599
But there were a lot of days 
that were fun too. 

303
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,599
We had a lot of time off on that
tour and we got to take 5 little

304
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,839
vacations to Disney World. 
Once when we were staying in the

305
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:15,000
hotel there, an amazing thing 
happened. 

306
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,040
I'll never forget it. 
I was on a balcony where we 

307
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,280
could see a big arena. 
There were all these people. 

308
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,880
It was so crowded that people 
were bumping into each other. 

309
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,560
Someone in the crowd recognized 
me and started screaming my 

310
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,760
name. 
Thousands of people began 

311
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,200
chanting Michael, Michael, and 
it was echoing all over the 

312
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,080
park. 
The chanting continued until 

313
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,840
finally it was so loud that if I
hadn't acknowledged it, it would

314
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,040
have been rude. 
As soon as I did, everybody 

315
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,640
started screaming. 
I said, this is so beautiful. 

316
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,840
I've got it so good. 
All the work I'd put in on 

317
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,480
Thriller, my crying and 
believing in my dreams and 

318
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,240
working on those songs and 
falling asleep near the 

319
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,600
microphone stand because I was 
so tired, all of it was repaid 

320
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,240
by this display of affection. 
I've seen times where I'd walk 

321
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,680
into a theater to see a play and
everybody would just start 

322
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,560
applauding just because they're 
glad that I happened to be 

323
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:15,160
there. 
At moments like that, I feel so 

324
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,400
honored and so happy. 
It makes all the work seem 

325
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,800
worthwhile. 
The Victory Tour was originally 

326
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,320
going to be called the Final 
Curtain because we all realized 

327
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,320
it was going to be the last tour
we did together, but we decided 

328
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320
not to put the emphasis on that.
I enjoyed the tour. 

329
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,280
I knew it would be a long Rd. 
In the end, it was probably too 

330
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,960
long. 
The best part of it for me was 

331
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,800
seeing the children in the 
audience every night. 

332
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,480
Every night there would be a 
number of them who had gotten 

333
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,040
all dressed up. 
They were so excited. 

334
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,320
I was truly inspired by the kids
on that tour, kids of all ethnic

335
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,320
groups and ages. 
It's been my dream since I was a

336
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,640
child to somehow unite people of
the world through love and 

337
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,680
music. 
I still get goosebumps when I 

338
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,640
hear The Beatles sing All You 
Need is Love. 

339
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,920
I've always wished that song 
could be an anthem for the 

340
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,920
world. 
I loved the shows we did in 

341
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,320
Miami and all the time we spent 
there. 

342
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,040
Colorado was great too. 
We got to spend some time 

343
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,200
relaxing at the Caribou Ranch 
and New York was really 

344
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,640
something, as it always is. 
Emmanuel Lewis came to the show,

345
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,040
as did Yoko, Sean, Lennon, 
Brooke, a lot of good friends. 

346
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000
Thinking back, the off stage 
moments stand out for me as much

347
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:35,000
as the concerts themselves. 
I found I could lose myself in 

348
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,040
some of those shows. 
I remember swinging my jackets 

349
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,240
around and slinging them into 
the audience. 

350
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,600
The wardrobe people would get 
annoyed at me and I'd say, 

351
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,480
honestly, I'm sorry, but I can't
help it. 

352
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,360
I can't control myself. 
Something takes over and I know 

353
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,040
I shouldn't do it, but you just 
can't control it. 

354
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,720
There's a spirit of joy and 
communion that gets inside of 

355
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,480
you, and you want to just let it
all out. 

356
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,280
OK, so we are going to leave it 
there with our excerpt for today

357
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,360
and have a discussion about 
everything. 

358
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:23,400
We are kicking off Chapter 6 
with primarily conversation 

359
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,080
about the Pepsi incident, 
Michael's fame in connection 

360
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,920
with fans, and of course the 
Victory Tour. 

361
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,560
There is a lot I would like for 
us to cover today, so let's get 

362
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,960
started. 
So Michael opens this section 

363
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:42,640
immediately in the action of the
Pepsi incident, the Pepsi 

364
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,040
accident, however you want to 
refer to it. 

365
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,960
And there's a lot he describes 
here and a lot I want to add to 

366
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,800
what he shares. 
So in case you don't know or 

367
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,240
have just never really thought 
about it before, I want to give 

368
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,240
you an idea of the timing we're 
talking about. 

369
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:04,280
So Michael attended the 1984 
American Music Awards in the 

370
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,200
middle of January. 
I think it was like January 17th

371
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,080
or something. 
About 10 days later, on January 

372
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:17,080
27th, 1984, Michael goes through
this incident and he suffers 

373
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,440
these incredible burns. 
A month later of February 28th, 

374
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,880
1984, Michael wins the most 
Grammy Awards in one night in 

375
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,120
history. 
So within a month of going 

376
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:35,280
through this horrific experience
physically, he is on stage 

377
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,080
accepting these awards, 
celebrating, being celebrated 

378
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,400
and looking great, looking like 
he's in excellent condition. 

379
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,440
Less than a month. 
Less than a month after that 

380
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,960
incident. 
Even more insane is it was about

381
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,360
a week after that incident that 
he attended a ceremony put on by

382
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,440
the Guinness Book of World 
Records for the greatest selling

383
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,000
album in history, which was 
Thriller. 

384
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:08,480
So like his life did not stop at
all based on this incident, this

385
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,960
incident that would cause most 
normal people to be out of work 

386
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,080
for a long time, be in recovery 
for a long time. 

387
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,680
Michael was heavily medicated, 
going through all kinds of 

388
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:22,080
surgeries and procedures. 
I mean, the amount that he was 

389
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:26,840
dealing with physically is 
something that I don't think he 

390
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,760
really shares here. 
He, I won't, I wouldn't say he 

391
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,720
downplays it by any means, but 
he also kind of does actually, 

392
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,600
because he talks about very 
quickly what happened the night 

393
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,160
of the burn, his own sort of 
choices and behaviors directly 

394
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,760
after it, donating money to the 
create the Michael Jackson Burn 

395
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,520
Center. 
And then he kind of moves on to 

396
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,240
talking about the Victory Tour. 
He doesn't share how much pain 

397
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,280
he was in. 
He doesn't talk about the 

398
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,880
multiple surgeries and 
procedures that he had had not 

399
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,400
only shortly after, but 
continued to have very 

400
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,280
frequently through the rest of 
his life. 

401
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,320
Frankly, And I mean, at this 
point, it had been a few years 

402
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,200
out. 
So maybe he didn't. 

403
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,760
You know who, I don't know 
exactly how the healing happened

404
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,840
directly in the the years 
directly after the incident, but

405
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,200
I do know from having read a lot
about Michael Jackson, learned a

406
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,280
lot about him. 
He was in significant pain 

407
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,800
almost all the time. 
I mean, for large amounts of 

408
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,840
time he was in significant pain.
He had a permanent spot on his 

409
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,960
head that was like, I've been 
I've read that it's about the 

410
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,320
size of your palm where he was 
not able to ever grow hair 

411
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,280
again. 
And he would be in pain to the 

412
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,560
point where just touching his 
head would cause him tremendous 

413
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,520
pain because of the sensitivity 
of the skin there and the 

414
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,920
constant procedures they tried. 
Now, some of these things I 

415
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,920
learned from listening to 
different MJ cast episodes, such

416
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:03,080
as the episode of Michael's hair
stylist Carol Amir, who dealt 

417
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,560
directly with this and 
specifically identified like, 

418
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,360
no, Michael wore hair pieces. 
But he she said throughout his 

419
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,560
life, he's still maintained 
hair. 

420
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,800
He just had to wear hair pieces 
and wigs at different times. 

421
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,760
And because of that, I mean, I 
think that largely accounts for 

422
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,960
a lot of the changes in 
Michael's hairstyle throughout 

423
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,360
his career. 
There are periods when, 

424
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,360
throughout the 90s, he was 
getting very regular surgery. 

425
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:31,000
And that's part of why he wore 
fedora all the time to cover the

426
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:37,520
injury that he had, but also why
he wore wigs to not only 

427
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,680
experiment, of course, with his 
aesthetic and his look and, you 

428
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,080
know, play with fashion and 
things, which is alone a 

429
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,680
completely valid reason to wear 
wigs, but also because he was 

430
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,000
dealing with this. 
And this is something that I 

431
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,040
think unfortunately, Michael did
under emphasize the impact this 

432
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,520
had. 
I don't know that he ever wanted

433
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,400
to admit that he was on 
significant pain medication. 

434
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,160
And therefore, people didn't 
understand that this this man 

435
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,400
who was so talented and so kind 
and so generous with his wealth 

436
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,800
and his, you know, his resources
was walking around in so much 

437
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,040
pain and still being all of 
those things. 

438
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,240
And if you've ever been a person
that has dealt with chronic pain

439
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,080
of any kind, whatever the 
circumstances are, from the very

440
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,040
minor to the more significant, 
you know, that affects your 

441
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,240
mood, it affects your 
irritability, you know, it 

442
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,240
affects your productivity, it 
affects the way you interact 

443
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,680
with people, how how you want to
be seen by people. 

444
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:43,720
So I don't think we can under 
emphasize how much this likely 

445
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,840
truly did affect him 'cause at 
the same time that Michael was 

446
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,960
at the height of his career, as 
we know, his skin was changing 

447
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,320
because of vitiligo, which he 
had not shared with the world 

448
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,360
Around the same time he was 
diagnosed with lupus. 

449
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,960
And then he goes through this 
horrific incident where he's 

450
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,320
dealing with significant pain 
for the rest of his life. 

451
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,640
Although I'm sure there's 
periods of time he wasn't in 

452
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,040
pain all the time there. 
You know, a lot of people who 

453
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,000
worked with him said he was So 
like, you know, his life at the 

454
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,600
moment of this burn changed 
forever in ways that I don't 

455
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,640
think people reckon with their 
understand. 

456
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,280
And in fact, something that came
up in my mind as I was reading 

457
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,200
this section, feeling so sorry 
for him about this experience 

458
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,160
was how in the early 2000s, as 
I'm sure any seasoned of Michael

459
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,120
Jackson fan knows, but newer 
Michael Jackson fans may not 

460
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:38,280
know, Michael was heavily made 
fun of in the public eye. 

461
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,920
I mean, everything about him was
picked apart. 

462
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,640
And Eminem released a video in 
which he directly throughout, 

463
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,720
like half of the video or more, 
is directly and specifically 

464
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,840
making fun of Michael Jackson. 
He has horrible and cruel lyrics

465
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,960
about him. 
And he even depicts him getting 

466
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,480
his hair burned and like makes a
joke out of it and thinks it's 

467
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,120
like the most hilarious thing in
the world. 

468
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,320
And regardless if you like 
Eminem's music or whatever, I 

469
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,000
mean, I like some of Eminem's 
music. 

470
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:12,560
It's just that video represents 
the level of cruelty and 

471
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,400
dehumanization Michael was 
dealing with all his life. 

472
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,120
I mean, who makes fun of a 
person's near death experience 

473
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,000
that led them into dependency on
prescription medication that 

474
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:28,800
changed the course of their life
in so many ways? 

475
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,040
Why would someone make fun of 
that? 

476
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,200
And I'll granted, I know Eminem 
is like someone who attacked 

477
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,320
everyone at that time. 
That was sort of his shtick. 

478
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,800
You know, he made fun of every 
pop culture figure. 

479
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,600
Michael was by no means the only
person he targeted. 

480
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,280
It was just kind of what Eminem 
did. 

481
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,280
But that doesn't discount the 
fact that the culture at large 

482
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,920
accepted it. 
And of course, if you've seen 

483
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,080
the interview that Michael does 
in the 2000s, right around the 

484
00:27:54,080 --> 00:28:00,640
time of the trial with Geraldo 
Rivera in 2005, I think he talks

485
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,000
directly about this. 
I mean, he's directly asked, 

486
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,480
what is your take on this? 
And I want to just kind of 

487
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,800
quickly play his response here. 
Tell us how that hurt you and 

488
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:10,880
and how you're feeling about it 
now. 

489
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:18,360
I've never met Mr. Eminem and to
have him, I've always admired to

490
00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:23,440
have him do something like that 
was was pretty painful as as an 

491
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,040
artist to another artist. 
And it's, it's sad because, 

492
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,240
well, I think what Stevie Wonder
said is true and I just don't 

493
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,760
want to say too much more than 
that. 

494
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,040
But he he should be ashamed of 
himself. 

495
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,640
What he's doing. 
Stevie said he's bullied is what

496
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,120
he said Stevie did and he is. 
That's what he said. 

497
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,960
I mean, I'm not saying what 
Stevie said it. 

498
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,040
And Stevie is a he's amazing. 
He's one of the sweetest men in 

499
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,640
the world. 
But a lot of people respect 

500
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,800
Stevie. 
And he's a very strong entity in

501
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,120
this medium, in this business. 
And when he speaks, people 

502
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,200
listen. 
And it was wrong of, of Eminem 

503
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,480
to do what he did. 
I've, I've, I've been an artist 

504
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,360
most of my life doing what I do.
And I I've never attacked 

505
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,880
another fellow artist, great 
artist. 

506
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,320
Don't do that. 
You know, you don't have to do 

507
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,120
that. 
Yeah, but it doesn't hurt 

508
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,920
really. 
It's it's silly. 

509
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,240
It's kind of elementary, but I 
hope he's having fun. 

510
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,960
It's like a poo poo joke. 
Yes. 

511
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,400
Yeah. 
Well, it still hurts your 

512
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,280
feelings and you don't want your
kids to see it. 

513
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,160
Oh, God, I would hate it if they
saw it. 

514
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,000
I would hate that. 
Do you want him to know that, To

515
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:37,160
know about it? 
No, as always. 

516
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,520
You know, Michael handles this 
type of thing with such grace 

517
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,280
and humility in ways that I 
think he extended to people who 

518
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:45,880
didn't deserve it, including 
Eminem. 

519
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,960
And the whole, the whole thing 
is really sad. 

520
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,400
And I am only bringing that up 
because not only did Michael 

521
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,840
have a hard time, understandably
by the way, have a hard time 

522
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,920
opening up about how hard he had
it and how difficult things 

523
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,800
were. 
I'm sure if he did, it would be 

524
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,320
perceived as him whining or 
complaining or whatever, but the

525
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,760
world didn't even extend him the
most basic of empathy. 

526
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,960
And it's that's just an example 
of it. 

527
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,280
And so I, I think as fans of 
Michael Jackson and just as 

528
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,240
frankly, just as human beings, 
we should be very mindful of 

529
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,720
taking very, very seriously what
this accident actually did to 

530
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,480
him and his life. 
The final thing I'll say about 

531
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,320
that and about, you know, the 
way fans often think about it is

532
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,080
that part of the mythologizing 
of Michael Jackson as this 

533
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:41,120
magical, otherworldly almost 
figure and icon is that this day

534
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,880
that his hair was burned marks 
the halfway point of his life. 

535
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,080
Like, that's crazy. 
You know, not only was this 

536
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,680
something that completely 
transformed his life, but it's 

537
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,120
literally the halfway point. 
And you would never know that 

538
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,200
reading about Michael at this 
time. 

539
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,600
You would never know he had less
than half of his life left. 

540
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,160
By the time he wrote this and 
published this book. 

541
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,800
There was less than half of his 
life left to live. 

542
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,640
He had no idea. 
Of course, we never know, right?

543
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,640
We never know. 
Life is incredibly precious in 

544
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,040
that way. 
Anyway, this just brings up a 

545
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:15,320
lot of emotions for me because I
can't stand to see people's pain

546
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,120
diminished and made fun of. 
Like, it's one thing to make fun

547
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,760
of your own pain, but to be the 
butt of someone else's joke? 

548
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,960
Especially during a time in the 
2000s where Michael became a 

549
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:29,920
punching bag for the entire 
world. 

550
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,920
And I mean, I was alive and 
witnessed it, even though I 

551
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,400
wasn't a fan. 
I'm very aware of it and it's, 

552
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,480
it's just painful. 
Like to kick people when they're

553
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,080
down is not something I will 
ever understand what someone 

554
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,120
could get out of it. 
I, I've heard people say this as

555
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,160
a rule of comedy. 
Comedy is only funny when you're

556
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,520
punching up. 
So when someone is already down 

557
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,720
and they're hurting, you're 
punching down, You know, you're 

558
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,800
kicking someone punching someone
when they're already on the 

559
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,760
floor. 
But when somebody is, you know, 

560
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,080
elevated, which is why our 
leaders, you know, the leaders 

561
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,320
of our countries and why 
celebrities who feel sort of 

562
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,880
untouchable become more fun or 
light hearted to poke fun at 

563
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,800
Michael, despite his status as 
the King of Pop and this most 

564
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,680
successful artist and all this 
stuff was not in a place where 

565
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,400
any continued attack on him 
would be punching up. 

566
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,160
By that point, he was on trial. 
He was dealing with all kinds of

567
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,000
unkindness from the media in the
world and had been for decades. 

568
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,280
He is certainly would be 
punching down and that's not 

569
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,640
funny. 
That's why it's not funny, 

570
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,240
right? 
You can't laugh at it. 

571
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,200
And Michael certainly couldn't 
laugh at it when his life was in

572
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,560
such chaos. 
So sorry to spend so much time 

573
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,360
on that. 
I just, you know, I feel a lot 

574
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,880
about this as I do all things. 
Anyway, let's touch base a bit 

575
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,240
more about some of the things 
that Michael shares about this 

576
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,080
incident. 
Of course, he mentions that. 

577
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,320
There's that famous shot of him 
waving from the stretcher with 

578
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,320
his glove on. 
And I just got to say, like, who

579
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:07,640
thinks about their own marketing
and branding during a time like 

580
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,920
this? 
Like Michael's mind was crazy 

581
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,920
because on one hand, you're 
like, God, why was that even on 

582
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,640
your mind, you know? 
And on the other hand, it's 

583
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,880
like, that's like brilliant to 
be thinking about your life 

584
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,840
almost as performance art in 
such a way that you're like, oh,

585
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,840
I want to make sure we capture 
this in such a way because it 

586
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,800
will be remembered. 
On one hand, it's kind of 

587
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,640
strange and sad to me that 
Michael's thought and and 

588
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,880
framing of of himself and his 
own pain and this incident in 

589
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,320
his life that was so 
frightening. 

590
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,000
He framed all of that through 
this lens of an external view of

591
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,480
him, not through his own 
internal experience so much as 

592
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,280
what will the world see of this 
and take of this? 

593
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,080
I mean, it makes you wonder how 
much of his own identity was 

594
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,840
shaped by looking at or viewing 
himself through the eyes of 

595
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,480
others. 
You know, that's what it makes 

596
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,960
me think of initially. 
On the other hand, it is 

597
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,040
brilliant. 
It is brilliant to be able to 

598
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,440
recognize in a moment of crisis.
Look, I'm a public figure. 

599
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,560
People see me a certain way. 
How can I control the way this 

600
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,280
is viewed? 
So, like, we can look at it two 

601
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:19,960
ways. 
Like, on one hand, it's sad. 

602
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,120
And how did that distort his 
view of himself and cause him 

603
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,360
perhaps some pain in his life 
and his ability to exist as a 

604
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,719
human, not just as a public 
figure, but at the same time, 

605
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,560
he'd spent his whole life doing 
that. 

606
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,400
And so the only way perhaps he 
knew to have control or 

607
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,480
influence over the conversations
that would inevitably follow 

608
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,080
would be to create the narrative
himself or contribute to it 

609
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,159
himself. 
So he requests the glove. 

610
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,120
I would love to know, what do 
you think? 

611
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,600
I mean, is this a moment of 
marketing brilliance? 

612
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,800
Is this a moment of, wow? 
Like, how did he think of that? 

613
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,480
How funny. 
And like, this is just a sort of

614
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,400
a charming thing about Michael 
Jackson. 

615
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,440
Or do you think it represents 
something a little bit more sad 

616
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,960
or a little bit more dark about 
his self perception and the way 

617
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,320
that he saw himself in relation 
to the world? 

618
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,080
To be honest, I'm sort of of 
both minds. 

619
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:15,040
I feel like we can both 
appreciate his own brilliance to

620
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,480
think this way and also 
recognize it's a little sad to 

621
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,400
live as a kind of product. 
So I'm curious what you think 

622
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,920
about that. 
Feel free to share your 

623
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,000
perspective on that. 
He does, though I will say I 

624
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,600
will add this little tidbit 
here. 

625
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,840
He does talk about how he was so
excited in some ways to be in an

626
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,840
ambulance. 
And I know his mother said this 

627
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,240
in an interview that like, one 
of the first things he had said 

628
00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:43,320
to her was I, it was so exciting
to ride in the ambulance, you 

629
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,360
know? 
So on one hand, you know, he was

630
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,000
experiencing it as himself, 
Michael Jackson, and again, in 

631
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,600
his very sort of spirited way of
viewing life. 

632
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,840
What's crazy about this is he 
references how Pepsi really took

633
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,120
off after this. 
It's actually helped Pepsi 

634
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,560
because of the amount of 
publicity it brought to the 

635
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,920
commercial and to the brand 
itself to the point of them 

636
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:08,800
being in the Guinness Book of 
World Records. 

637
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,600
So rather than focus on Pepsi's 
appearance in the Guinness Book 

638
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,320
of World Records, I thought this
would be a fun opportunity to 

639
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,480
talk about Michael's appearance 
in the Guinness Book of World 

640
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,920
Records. 
So I took it upon myself to look

641
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,640
up how many times did Michael 
Jackson appear in the Guinness 

642
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,560
Book of World Records, and it is
apparently, as of 2025, 

643
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,520
approximately 40 times. 
I say approximate because I've 

644
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,280
gotten a couple of different 
answers to this based on if 

645
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,760
someone has broken a record or 
whatever, but he has appeared 40

646
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,080
times. 
Now, obviously, I'm not going to

647
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:47,400
go through each and every record
that he appeared there for, but 

648
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,640
I will share a couple because 
it's interesting. 

649
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,400
So Michael, of course, has the 
Guinness Book of World Records 

650
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,360
for the most Grammys won in a 
single year. 

651
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,640
Very cool. 
He holds the record for the most

652
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,520
charity supported by a pop star 
I believe. 

653
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,720
Along with that the highest 
amount of money ever donated by 

654
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,560
a pop star. 
He has the most viewed Wikipedia

655
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,360
page for a musician, the largest
TV audience for a music video 

656
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,880
premiere, and that is from the 
premiere of the black or white 

657
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,640
music video when he had 
approximately 500 million people

658
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,720
from 27 countries watch the live
premiere. 

659
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Insane. 
Of course, the best selling 

660
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,040
album of all time, Thriller, the
most lucrative recording 

661
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,840
contract, and of course the 
highest earning dead celebrity. 

662
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:38,600
Every year since he has died 
except for like one or two. 

663
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,840
So you know, Michael, he has 
made his mark when it comes to 

664
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,280
setting a record with the 
Guinness Book of World Records, 

665
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,520
which is really sweet because as
he said a couple of times 

666
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,520
throughout his life, that was a 
really big deal to him. 

667
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,960
He was really excited about it. 
It was something that he had 

668
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,120
always wanted to do to appear in
the Guinness Book of World 

669
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,240
Records and he did quite a bit. 
And of course, last but not 

670
00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:05,960
least, the most successful 
entertainer in history. 

671
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:12,120
So Michael certainly had his 
incredible achievements 

672
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,480
acknowledged in the Guinness 
Book of World Records. 

673
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,960
And so many of those I think are
incredibly unlikely to ever be 

674
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,440
replicated, which is super, 
super cool. 

675
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,720
So good job, Michael, and we 
don't have to acknowledge Pepsi 

676
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,560
any further. 
But of course, he goes on to 

677
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:32,080
share that given the incredible 
mishandling of the entire 

678
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:37,080
incident, he does end up being 
awarded $1.5 million from Pepsi.

679
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,400
And as he said, and as so many 
of us fans know, he used that 

680
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,280
money to create the Michael 
Jackson Burn Center. 

681
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,000
It's really interesting, 
actually, online, there are all 

682
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,160
kinds of photos from when 
Michael was in the burn center 

683
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,320
and he is walking around with, 
you know, the gauze on his head 

684
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,560
taking photos with fans. 
Like, it's crazy. 

685
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,360
To me. 
It made a real impact. 

686
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,360
And actually, if you ever want 
to hear an amazing story about 

687
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,320
one of the ways it did make an 
impact is Al Scanlon, who is in 

688
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,880
the fan community known as Big 
Al, who worked with Michael at 

689
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,160
Neverland. 
He has told this story a couple 

690
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,080
of times. 
I would think the best source 

691
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,440
for it is the podcast 
Humanitarian the Real Michael 

692
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,520
Jackson, which is put out by 
Paul Dwyer. 

693
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,840
He goes on there and he tells a 
story about when Neverland 

694
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:31,840
hosted children from a local 
burn unit, and these children 

695
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,120
were horribly disfigured. 
And as the staff there said, 

696
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,280
really couldn't go anywhere and 
not be stared at and gawked at 

697
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,320
and pointed at. 
They couldn't go to Disney 

698
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,240
World. 
They couldn't go to a zoo, you 

699
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,560
know, they couldn't go anywhere 
and experience childhood as they

700
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,440
wanted. 
And so Michael agreed to host 

701
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,720
them at Neverland. 
And Al tells this entire 

702
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,160
beautiful story about what it 
was like to work at Neverland 

703
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:02,440
and see those children and to 
hear feedback from the staff and

704
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:06,440
to just know that he was a part 
of this incredible gift that 

705
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,080
Michael was giving the world 
through Neverland. 

706
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,360
And it's just really beautiful. 
So I will be sure to link that 

707
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,040
episode in the description 
because it's really worth 

708
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:16,920
listening to. 
And I really hope that you do if

709
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,480
you haven't, because it's 
beautiful. 

710
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,080
So then we move into the Victory
Tour. 

711
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,720
Now, what Michael doesn't 
exactly mention is that the 

712
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:31,680
Victory Tour's first date was 
less than six months after the 

713
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,400
Pepsi Burn. 
I think that is absolutely 

714
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,520
insane. 
And he says here, I didn't want 

715
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,760
to go, I didn't want to do it, 
he says. 

716
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,080
I fought against it. 
I felt the wisest thing for me 

717
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,080
would be not to do the tour. 
Now, he doesn't specify here. 

718
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,320
Would that be the wisest thing 
in terms of his career or in his

719
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,120
mind and perhaps his doctor's 
recommendation in terms of his 

720
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,120
health? 
And I can't help but be a little

721
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:04,320
frustrated with his brothers, 
with his family, for pushing him

722
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:10,760
so hard into this tour he had. 
He had undergone an incredible 

723
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,560
He had undergone an unbelievable
accident and was in pain and 

724
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:22,120
recovering and he had to start 
rehearsing only a few months 

725
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,800
after that and then going on 
tour all around the country for 

726
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,880
months on end. 
That is not the right scenario 

727
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,320
for a person who is healing from
something traumatic. 

728
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,800
So it bothers me quite a bit 
that this happened for him. 

729
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:41,400
And I don't know how else to 
read this entire section about 

730
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,400
the Victory Tour but through the
lens that like Michael's very 

731
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,880
openly saying he didn't want to 
go. 

732
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,120
He didn't agree with how it was 
done. 

733
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,840
He wasn't happy with the 
performances. 

734
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,520
He didn't feel it was right. 
But he's also offering that he 

735
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,640
had a good time at at at 
different points. 

736
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,160
He enjoyed spending time with 
his brothers and being like the 

737
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,120
Jackson 5 again. 
He enjoyed seeing fans that he 

738
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,400
earned since Thriller, you know,
he enjoyed aspects of it and he 

739
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,240
surely had a good time in the 
moment. 

740
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,600
As he said, he decided to just 
put his soul into it because if 

741
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,160
he couldn't get out of it, he 
wanted it to be great as he 

742
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,120
wanted everything to be great 
that he did. 

743
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:18,960
But this still bothers me 
because I know there's a lot of 

744
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,040
mixed narratives about this. 
Like I think most fans suggest 

745
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,400
that it's true Michael really 
didn't want to go and we feel 

746
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,400
bad for him that he did. 
But I know for Michael's family 

747
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,000
this is a lot more complicated 
because they were with him on 

748
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,440
tour and they saw him having fun
and enjoying himself. 

749
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,040
This is another case of where 
two things can be true at once. 

750
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,000
Michael could have not wanted to
go. 

751
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,000
He could have resented going, He
could have resented the show 

752
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,440
itself and even his brothers and
his parents at times. 

753
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,360
But that doesn't mean he 
couldn't have enjoyed it too. 

754
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,880
And I, I, I always am frustrated
by, and I think this is probably

755
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,000
a theme you've all noticed in my
commentary. 

756
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:01,800
I do not like to limit our view 
of Michael or his experiences to

757
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,720
what one or two people's 
narratives are, including fan 

758
00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:07,800
narratives. 
I mean, we have to recognize 

759
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,360
that that he's a human being and
his experience was likely 

760
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,160
multifaceted. 
There could have been times on 

761
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,320
that tour that he was like, Oh 
my God, this is amazing as he 

762
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,080
identifies here. 
While in the same week, maybe he

763
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,360
felt incredibly annoyed and 
frustrated by what he was 

764
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,240
experiencing. 
So like, again, it's the nuance.

765
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:27,800
We just need to approach him 
with nuance. 

766
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,800
But this is something I'm 
extremely looking forward to 

767
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,640
when it comes to seeing the 
biopic. 

768
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:38,400
How will this be represented? 
Michael fighting against it? 

769
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,040
He he describes it as he fought 
hard against it but then 

770
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,880
ultimately relented. 
So I want to know how will that 

771
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,880
be presented? 
How will his conflicts with the 

772
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,160
whole show be represented 
regardless of what they do? 

773
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:57,840
I mean, I do hope that it's made
very clear how quickly he did 

774
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,800
this after this major accident 
in his life. 

775
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,040
And I, I think that people have 
a right to question his family's

776
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,960
motives when it came to that. 
I, I can't imagine that this was

777
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,680
good for Michael in any way. 
And I, I often wonder, had he 

778
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,360
had more time to heal, what, how
would he have done? 

779
00:44:17,720 --> 00:44:19,800
You know, how, how would, how 
would things have gone for him 

780
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,200
if he had had more time to heal?
You know, perhaps he would have 

781
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,280
done his own thriller tour alone
at the same time frame. 

782
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,560
I don't know. 
I just know he should have, 

783
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,040
regardless of who pushed it, he 
should have had more time to get

784
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,200
better. 
Still, it's nice to hear him say

785
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,040
he felt so powerful during that 
time. 

786
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,160
This quote he says about the 
tour. 

787
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,920
We're a mountain. 
We've come to share our music 

788
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,600
with you. 
We have something we want to 

789
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,640
tell you was beautiful. 
I thought like that he 

790
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,040
approached it and thought of it 
this way of like we are a force 

791
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,280
and we want to to spread 
everything we have to say across

792
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,480
this land. 
I mean, that's a beautiful 

793
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,560
approach and mindset. 
Still, it's kind of incredible 

794
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,240
that he didn't enjoy what he did
on tour. 

795
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,440
The Victory tour is great. 
I mean, unfortunately we don't 

796
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,200
have a very high quality copy of
it yet. 

797
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,200
I'm hoping, hoping, hoping that 
the estate will be releasing 1 

798
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,040
maybe later this year in 
response to the biopic, which of

799
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,600
course, they're featuring the 
Victory Tour in the biopic. 

800
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,560
It would make perfect sense to 
release the Victory Tour in a 

801
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,920
higher quality because right now
the quality we have is absolute 

802
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,600
garbage. 
I'm just being honest. 

803
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:36,600
So it would be wonderful, but 
it's crazy to know that Michael 

804
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,440
was unhappy with it. 
Like what did he want to be 

805
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,640
different? 
I wonder what was he hoping to 

806
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,040
achieve with his own 
performances 'cause he talks 

807
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,600
about Billie Jean not being 
great. 

808
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,040
And if you recall, a few months 
ago, we at this point, we talked

809
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,960
about the memoir tapes that were
leaked online for a little 

810
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,720
while. 
And there was a tape in which 

811
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,720
Michael talks about his 
dissatisfaction with the tour 

812
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,520
and with Billie Jean 
specifically. 

813
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:06,960
You want to. 
Present something to the people 

814
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:08,920
and they go, wow, that's 
wonderful. 

815
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,440
I just, I can't explain how 
unhappy I am with the show, with

816
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,680
our concert. 
Isn't it hard? 

817
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,640
For you go on stage every night,
then that's again, yeah. 

818
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,440
I can't explain how unhappy I am
with you because it could be so 

819
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,200
much more. 
It's so much more I want to do 

820
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:29,120
and, but I, I don't have the 
chance and the time to perfect 

821
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,640
it the way I want to. 
I'm so disappointed in Billie 

822
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,320
Jean. 
I'm so disappointed. 

823
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,760
Oh, I just can't explain. 
It's I, I want it to be so much 

824
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,840
more. 
And the lighting isn't the way I

825
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,360
want it to be. 
My steps isn't the way I want it

826
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,840
to be. 
And, and it kills me to have to 

827
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,360
accept to do this the way it is.
It really does. 

828
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,600
Well, how does it say, how do 
you think people like me say 

829
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,720
that that Billie Jean is the 
best thing I've ever seen? 

830
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:58,400
And you say it's not, you know, 
but he's definitely a strange 

831
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,440
thing to hear because you know 
how much more you want it to be.

832
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,640
No, it is. 
So, you know, it just, it sort 

833
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,040
of emphasizes Michael's insane 
perfectionism. 

834
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:10,600
And I'm not saying he's wrong to
have it. 

835
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,600
The reason we have the amazing 
things we do from him is in 

836
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:17,200
large part the perfectionism. 
But I also think unfortunately, 

837
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,640
the perfectionism is part of why
we don't have certain things we 

838
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,960
all would love to have and see 
because he held on to things 

839
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:26,280
because he wanted them to be 
exactly right. 

840
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,320
And unfortunately we miss out in
some cases because of that. 

841
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,200
But anyway, it's amazing to look
at Michael, especially, in my 

842
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,600
opinion, Billie Jean on the 
Victory tour, His circle glide 

843
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:43,840
is unfathomable to me, and it's 
the only tour where that circle 

844
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,360
glide is like liquid. 
And that does not mean it is not

845
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:52,280
incredible in the later tours, 
but the liquid movement of that 

846
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,280
circle glide during victory, Oh 
my God, I could scream. 

847
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,680
I won't, I'll spare you. 
But my God, amazing. 

848
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,880
Throughout his description of 
the Victory tour, Michael does 

849
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,400
talk a little bit about his 
connection to fans and the way 

850
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,160
it felt to be received by them. 
And it's beautiful to me to hear

851
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,720
about. 
Like you always wonder when it 

852
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:18,320
comes to an A major, an amazing 
artist, what is it like to be 

853
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,520
them in that? 
And so Michael's whole 

854
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,760
description about singing back 
and forth with the audience and 

855
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,280
it sounded like an earthquake 
when you'd hear them respond, to

856
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,800
ask them to hold hands and clap 
and to see them respond and to 

857
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,160
see the unity in the audience. 
And he always emphasizes of all 

858
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,720
the different races and ages. 
He talks about toddlers and 

859
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:45,640
grandparents and people in their
20s and people in their 60s and 

860
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,560
everybody you know, seeing them 
all come together. 

861
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,560
And he says they love it and 
it's so beautiful. 

862
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,760
All races of people doing this 
together. 

863
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:59,440
At times like that, I say, look 
around you, look at yourselves, 

864
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,280
look, look around you, look at 
what you've done. 

865
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,960
And that I, I don't know, I just
got chills reading that because 

866
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,480
he doesn't say, look at what 
I've done to unite you. 

867
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,040
He's saying, look at what you've
done in this audience to create 

868
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,600
this love and energy to feed 
into one another, to show up 

869
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,720
together, to hold hands, to take
a risk and be vulnerable in 

870
00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:26,520
front of someone next to you. 
That level it, it, it shows 

871
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:31,280
Michael's appreciation, like a 
genuine respect and appreciation

872
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,240
for the people in the audience 
participating in this moment 

873
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:38,120
with him. 
It's not just, oh, he's powerful

874
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,680
and has this aura and he has 
this influence over his fans. 

875
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:46,440
It's, hey, you are a willing 
participant in this. 

876
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,960
And that itself is beautiful 
because it's euphoric. 

877
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:54,920
I mean, what he's describing is 
a kind of euphoria of connection

878
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,640
and human connection. 
And I often feel this when I go 

879
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,200
to a theater. 
Like I go to a play or a musical

880
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,960
or something, or I go to a 
concert and I see people 

881
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,880
together in the moment 
experiencing something and it 

882
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,000
makes me cry because I think, Oh
my God, the togetherness. 

883
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:15,360
I'll often say this to my 
husband. 

884
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,080
Everyone is together and they're
so happy and it's beautiful. 

885
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,880
He doesn't get it. 
He doesn't feel it, but I feel 

886
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:22,800
it. 
I feel it so much. 

887
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,680
And I can only imagine what it's
like at a Michael Jackson 

888
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,000
concert to feel that and to see 
it. 

889
00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:34,320
But then on the flip side of 
that, he talks about how larger 

890
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,560
than life you become to your 
fans. 

891
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:41,280
And he specifically says he's 
baffled by this idea of someone 

892
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:43,120
saying like, oh, that couldn't 
be him. 

893
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,640
Why would he be here if they see
him somewhere? 

894
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,440
And he says, why wouldn't I? 
I'm on Earth somewhere. 

895
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,520
I've got to be somewhere at any 
given time. 

896
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:55,760
Why not here? 
And this part kills me because 

897
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,120
this is something that I think 
it's hard to explain without 

898
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,480
sounding like a psycho. 
But I'm just being real with 

899
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,520
you, Michael not being on this 
Earth now. 

900
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,280
Michael being gone doesn't feel 
right. 

901
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:14,480
Even though I was never a fan 
during Michael's lifetime, I 

902
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:19,960
look back and I feel a comfort 
in knowing that I was alive and 

903
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:21,800
shared the earth at the same 
time as him. 

904
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,720
I'm comforted by that. 
I'm warmed by that. 

905
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:30,120
I am grateful for that because 
that like, energy in the world 

906
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,640
was something I was able to 
receive still like the the 

907
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,200
energy of Michael's presence in 
the world. 

908
00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:43,280
And it breaks my heart that we 
can't experience that anymore. 

909
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,640
I mean, I used to say this kind 
of as a joke, but also, I'm 

910
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,720
being honest, if I were alive, 
like during the bad era or the 

911
00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:52,640
thriller era or off the wall, 
like literally any era of 

912
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:56,200
Michael's career, I don't think 
I would function properly if I 

913
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,520
knew he was like somewhere on 
earth at the same time as me. 

914
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,320
You know what I mean? 
Like, it would blow my mind. 

915
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,440
And that's the thing that 
unfortunately, we're now 

916
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,640
missing. 
It's not because I have any 

917
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,280
delusion that I ever would have 
been able to meet Michael 

918
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,080
Jackson or interact with him or 
whatever, but the comfort of his

919
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,560
presence on Earth through the 
thick and thin of life. 

920
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,360
I mean, in the global sense, 
like the things, the good and 

921
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,880
the bad happening in the world. 
The idea of him being here and 

922
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,080
being able to speak to things or
provide his insights through 

923
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:33,520
music or any, anything, not even
if he was performing, just he 

924
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,200
could be retired and living in 
total isolation. 

925
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,120
But if I just knew he was here, 
it would make a difference for 

926
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,720
me, you know? 
And I'm sure a lot of fans feel 

927
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:44,920
that way. 
And it's, it's hard and I feel, 

928
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,360
I feel for the young fans, the 
very young fans, I mean, who are

929
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,960
children who don't yet know that
Michael is dead. 

930
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,240
You know, the fans that are 
discovering him at like 5 years 

931
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:57,640
old who fall in love with him 
and then have to find out, oh, 

932
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,720
he's gone. 
That's really tough. 

933
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:01,800
And it, and it breaks my heart 
and it breaks my heart for 

934
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,640
anyone who loves him, all of you
listening. 

935
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,800
I mean, anyone who feels this, 
his loss is still so 

936
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,280
devastating. 
And I think that's not just the 

937
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,080
nature of his loss or how young 
he was. 

938
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,600
It's just the power of his 
presence means the gravity of 

939
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,400
his absence is so much greater, 
You know? 

940
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,600
So with having said all that, I 
don't want to be one of those 

941
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,000
fans. 
That's so weird that I'd have to

942
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,840
ask Michael, would you have gone
to the bathroom? 

943
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,600
You know, like, have you ever 
used a toilet? 

944
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,280
Poor Michael. 
I mean, my God, what a crazy 

945
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,880
life to lead in which people 
can't imagine you peeing. 

946
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:41,720
You know what I mean? 
Like, wow. 

947
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:47,440
But also, it kind of shows just 
like he did have this larger 

948
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:50,800
than life presence, and it is 
sometimes hard to imagine him 

949
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,520
doing regular things. 
Like, I've recently bought a 

950
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:55,080
house. 
And so I've been painting this 

951
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,240
house, like all the time, 
painting every room, all the 

952
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:00,960
trim, everything. 
And I'm really bad at it. 

953
00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:04,160
And as I've been painting 
occasionally, I have the thought

954
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,000
of like, I wonder if Michael 
Jackson ever painted a room. 

955
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,160
Like, no, of course he didn't. 
Probably not, but my point is, 

956
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,800
it is parasocial, right? 
I mean, to even think about him 

957
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:16,440
in moments like that is kind of 
wild. 

958
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,120
But do you do that? 
Have you done that? 

959
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,000
To some degree? 
It's normal, but also it just 

960
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,320
represents how larger than life 
he was and how hard it was to 

961
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:32,080
imagine him, this huge figure 
with this presence, doing things

962
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,840
like regular people would do. 
Unfortunately, I think I've said

963
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,120
this before, but the flip side 
of that level of admiration for 

964
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,800
someone is a dehumanization of 
them at the same time, because 

965
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:46,440
even though we mean it well, we 
admire him so much, we think so 

966
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,840
highly of him, it's hard to 
imagine him being a regular 

967
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,840
person. 
You're still dehumanizing 

968
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,200
someone with that view. 
And we have to, as fans, I think

969
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,840
be careful of that as well. 
Respect his privacy to respect 

970
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,120
his imagery. 
You know, like, I have 

971
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:03,120
personally have a big problem 
with AI images and videos of 

972
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:07,160
Michael because to me, it's a 
dehumanization of Michael. 

973
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:10,160
Not everybody looks at it that 
way, of course, but to me it is.

974
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,600
So it's like it's a fine balance
to strike. 

975
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,600
And it must have been very 
strange for him. 

976
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:17,560
A couple of really final 
thoughts here. 

977
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,960
He talks a bit about his 
relationship with Bill Bray and 

978
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,960
some of the fun he had on tour 
with his brothers and pranks and

979
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,240
things. 
He tells this story also at some

980
00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:27,960
point in the chapter about 
chasing Frank Dileo around a 

981
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,680
hotel room with Muscles, his boa
constrictor. 

982
00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:34,440
And it reminded me of when I 
read Jermaine's book, You're Not

983
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,320
Alone. 
And Jermaine shares that he had 

984
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:43,760
a tiger he brought on tour with 
him, a tiger in his hotel room. 

985
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:47,280
What? 
What are you talking about? 

986
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:48,960
That's crazy. 
So Michael has a boa 

987
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,600
constrictor. 
Jermaine has a tiger. 

988
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,880
What is going on with these 
people? 

989
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:58,080
It's it's wild, no pun intended.
But I also read somewhere else 

990
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:01,440
that Jermaine stayed in a 
different hotel than all the 

991
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,640
other brothers, which I'm not 
sure why that would have been, 

992
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,720
but I I wonder if there was 
still some tension there. 

993
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,280
I'm not quite sure, but I have 
heard that before too. 

994
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,280
Either way, Michael tells a 
story about throwing the $100 

995
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,840
bills out the window or off the 
balcony. 

996
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,560
And all I thought was like, oh 
Michael. 

997
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:23,080
I'm not sure about this story 
because it definitely puts in 

998
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,840
perspective how meaningless 
money was to him, right? 

999
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:31,000
I mean, the average person is 
not going to be throwing $100 

1000
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,040
bills off a balcony because $100
means something to that person. 

1001
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:39,040
I'm not trying to suggest that 
Michael didn't value money at 

1002
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,040
all or you didn't care about it.
But it's just kind of evident 

1003
00:56:42,240 --> 00:56:44,600
that he definitely had a 
different relationship to money 

1004
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,600
than the average person and his 
average fan. 

1005
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,480
So to me, it's not, it's not 
that big of a deal. 

1006
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:53,880
He was like 25 years old and 
being silly, you know? 

1007
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,360
But I do wonder how that is 
received by fans throughout the 

1008
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:03,320
world who certainly most of us 
do not have the money to quite 

1009
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:05,200
literally throw around, you know
what I mean? 

1010
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,240
So anyway, not meant to be like 
a critique of him, just sort of 

1011
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:11,520
like a, hmm, that's an 
interesting thing to include in 

1012
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,040
this book, you know? 
So two final things I want to 

1013
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,160
mention. 
One of them is kind of back to 

1014
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:22,040
that parasocial comment about 
fans relating to Michael with 

1015
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,400
this distance kind of view of 
them. 

1016
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,880
Michael talks about how he would
hear people chanting his name 

1017
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,040
and coming out and looking at 
him and being so excited or 

1018
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,000
going to a theatre and everyone 
applauding just because he's 

1019
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,040
there. 
And he describes this as this 

1020
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,640
was so great, I've got it so 
good. 

1021
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,240
And he felt so loved. 
And I have no doubt he did feel 

1022
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:44,640
so loved. 
I mean, because that is coming 

1023
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,720
from a place of love and 
admiration and that must feel 

1024
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,080
good to feel like, oh, everyone 
loves me. 

1025
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,600
Wow, that must feel great. 
Even though the attention is, 

1026
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,800
I'm sure for a lot of it's hard 
to imagine Michael had always 

1027
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,160
received so much attention in 
his life that I'm sure the 

1028
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,320
singular attention that he was 
receiving and knowing this was 

1029
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,000
as a result of Thriller would 
have made him feel, you know, 

1030
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,040
really good and really seen at 
the same time. 

1031
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:12,680
This is, you know, earlier in 
his adult career. 

1032
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,360
He's reflecting on the fame post
thriller. 

1033
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,920
This book came out in the very 
early part of the bad era. 

1034
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,000
Did he have the energy and 
feeling about those kinds of 

1035
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:28,240
appearances then that maybe 
would fade or change as he 

1036
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,840
evolved? 
It's difficult because as I've 

1037
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,760
said 1000 times at this point, 
we don't know how Michael's 

1038
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,680
personal view of his fame 
progressed since this time. 

1039
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,800
I mean, the only real record we 
have of him talking about this 

1040
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,200
is this book. 
We have interviews where he 

1041
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,680
occasionally would reference his
fame or his fans or the 

1042
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,720
challenges of being, you know, 
unable to go anywhere. 

1043
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,000
But we don't really know how he 
felt because in all of these 

1044
00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:00,600
cases, both in this book and in 
those interviews, you know, he's

1045
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,480
writing it knowing his fans will
read it. 

1046
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,520
So I do think he genuinely means
it in this book of like, this 

1047
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:09,000
was wonderful. 
I have it so good. 

1048
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:12,560
I feel so happy about it. 
And I'm sure that kind of love 

1049
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:15,640
filled some kind of a hole in 
him from pain that he 

1050
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:20,680
experienced in his life. 
But also it certainly isolated 

1051
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:22,920
him too. 
The bigger and bigger he got, 

1052
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,280
the more isolated he got. 
I mean, the more and more people

1053
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,080
in this world who faint when 
they meet you or question if you

1054
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:32,520
use a bathroom, I mean, that 
kind of represents the harder 

1055
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,400
and harder it would become to 
have actual relationships with 

1056
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:39,240
people and to trust people and 
to not be viewed as a commodity 

1057
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:43,120
by everyone. 
So I do wonder if we had had a 

1058
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,680
book written in 1997 and 
published or even just like a 

1059
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:50,880
personal statement written by 
Michael, a private one, what 

1060
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,240
would his thoughts be about 
this? 

1061
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,960
Would they have adjusted or 
adapted or changed? 

1062
00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:58,920
Would he still want that level 
of attention? 

1063
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:02,600
I don't know. 
At the same time, I think his 

1064
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,040
mental health to some degree 
required that level of attention

1065
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,520
because he had been so harmed by
the hate he received. 

1066
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:14,160
And the unkindness in the world 
that I think the love certainly 

1067
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,480
would have helped him battle, 
that it would remind him that 

1068
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,640
he's still worthy, that he is 
still cared for. 

1069
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,360
He hasn't been forsaken, so to 
speak. 

1070
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,680
So my goodness, is it 
complicated psychologically and 

1071
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,120
emotionally. 
And I feel so much about that 

1072
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:31,120
because Michael, I do, as much 
as I admire him, he was only a 

1073
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:35,680
human being. 
I cannot imagine myself, my 

1074
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,320
sensitivities, which I think in 
some ways are similar to 

1075
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:42,360
Michael's, I can't imagine 
surviving the pressures he 

1076
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,960
faced. 
So the fact that he did, and he 

1077
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:49,080
could even look at that response
to him as a positive thing and 

1078
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,560
to be happy about it, even if it
didn't last his whole life, I'm 

1079
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,400
glad he was able to experience 
that. 

1080
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,000
There's a few other things I 
could say, but we're already 

1081
01:00:58,000 --> 01:00:59,880
pretty. 
We're already going a bit longer

1082
01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:02,680
than I hoped for in this one, so
I'm going to bring this to a 

1083
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:05,520
close. 
I want to thank you all for 

1084
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,320
being here and for listening and
joining me for for these final 

1085
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,280
couple of episodes talking about
Michael and Moonwalk. 

1086
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,080
I am excited to continue reading
Charter 6 next week. 

1087
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,360
So until then, I hope you have a
wonderful week and weekend and 

1088
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,080
continue to keep up to date with
all the little tidbits and 

1089
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,160
things being released about the 
biopic and clips of Jafar. 

1090
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,000
And there's so much to be 
excited about right now as a 

1091
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,800
Michael Jackson fan, So I hope 
that you are enjoying that. 

1092
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,520
And again, please feel free to 
e-mail me at 

1093
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,400
readingmichaeljackson@yahoo.com 
if you have any suggestions or 

1094
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:43,400
ideas about season 3 or just 
want to talk about any aspect of

1095
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,200
the show, the book, or of 
Michael Jackson. 

1096
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,880
I always love to hear from 
people, so I wish you all well 

1097
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,240
and we'll talk again very, very 
soon. 

1098
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:53,680
Take care.