1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,800 Finally, finally, we made it and we're back. 2 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,840 Oh, we're so back. Welcome everyone to another 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,360 episode. This time we're in San 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,600 Francisco. And what a good time to look at 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,080 your screen because we're we are recording at the San Francisco 6 00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:24,880 Parker Studio. Let me know whether you like 7 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,120 this new studio video format that we pulled off and send me a 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,560 quick note so we know what to continue next. 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,760 All right, I'm having Harry Max with me and we are covering the 10 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:38,840 main reason why your company doesn't get traction. 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:46,360 Let's dig into it. Harry, welcome to the Stella 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,520 Work podcast. Thank you so much for the 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:50,960 invitation. It's great to be here. 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,640 Happy to have you. I wanted to make an episode 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:59,360 about priorities because in my work and I feel like we all 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,680 struggle with this a little bit, Priorities are the 1 main thing 17 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,360 that keep us away from really being focused. 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,600 And focus for me is the key element of getting stuff done. 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,640 And all the episodes so far were about like, how do we get stuff 20 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,880 done? How do we make organizations? 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,360 How do we use tech in a way that enables us to get stuff done 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,480 fast? And focus always was One thing 23 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,680 that I learned about a couple of years ago looking at the Toyota 24 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,960 production system was like, oh, you limit the work that you 25 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,200 accept. But in the real world, like 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,520 there are a bunch of people approaching you and everyone 27 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,400 asks you through e-mail and you always, you're always about to 28 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,880 decline everything if you want to be focused. 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,080 So it's really hard. It's a it's an everyday 30 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,120 struggle. So I'm really happy to have you 31 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,280 as an expert on this. You wrote an awesome book that I 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:56,520 almost went got through reading. I'm almost there. 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:01,560 And yes, let's make a cool episode about privatization. 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:03,400 I'm looking. Forward to it. 35 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,560 It's a it's a topic that's become near and dear to my 36 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,160 heart. I wanted to start this episode 37 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,760 with asking you how do you got into the topic because it's a 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,320 bit of a meta topic and I assume there must be a story behind it. 39 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:26,720 Interestingly, I was giving talks on creative problem 40 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,520 solving and diagnostic thinking. I had done a TE DX talk. 41 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:33,880 I had given talks at South by Southwest. 42 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,440 I was talk. I gave talks at a number of 43 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,320 fairly large companies, one of which was at the Innovation Game 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,920 Summit with Luke Holman, who wrote the the intro to my. 45 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:47,760 Book, who was also on the podcast LinkedIn the. 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:49,520 Show notes. Awesome. 47 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,520 Yeah, he is a true master. And the the talk that I was 48 00:02:54,520 --> 00:03:01,520 giving was fascinating to me. It was so crucial to understand 49 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,680 how to develop intervention strategies for problems that 50 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,360 weren't necessarily solvable. Some people call them wicked 51 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,440 problems. And I gave this talk, I don't 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,040 know, a half a dozen times and all of the hands went up at the 53 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,160 end of the talk. The questions that came in 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,480 revolved around prioritization, which was something that I 55 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:30,680 touched on in the talk, but not a topic that was central to what 56 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:37,760 I was speaking on. And as a a guy who spends a lot 57 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,400 of time in product design and development leadership, it 58 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:47,120 occurred to me that that was a a demand signal, an under served 59 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,640 or unmet need in the topic of prioritization. 60 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,840 And at the time I was on the strategic Advisory Board of 61 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,240 Rosenfeld Media, a publishing company. 62 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,520 And I called Lou Rosenfeld, the publisher, and I said, Lou, Lou, 63 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,160 I've had this very strange experience. 64 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,600 It looks to me like there aren't any books that are solely 65 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,000 dedicated to the topic of prioritization. 66 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,360 And he said, that's impossible. It's such a fundamental topic. 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,839 And I said, well, I found 212 books that talk about how 68 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,519 important it is, but I found absolutely none that tell you 69 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:26,360 how to do it. And he went off and did his own 70 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,480 investigation and he came back and he said, by gosh, you're 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,440 right. There are no books that actually 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,640 demystify the topic of prioritization holistically for 73 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,960 individuals, teams and organizations, And he said you 74 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,080 should write that book. What do you what do you think it 75 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:44,920 is that that? Why? 76 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,800 Is it because it's such a context specific meta topic? 77 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,760 Or why aren't there more books about this? 78 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,400 Well, now that I've written the book, I can tell you there are a 79 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,520 bunch of reasons #1 we think we're good at it as human 80 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,400 beings, but it turns out we're good at it in simple static 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,720 environments. And the more dynamic the 82 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,320 environment gets, and the more and the larger it gets, the more 83 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:14,840 complicated it becomes and the less we realize that we know 84 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:16,720 about it. And you're probably familiar 85 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:21,240 with the Dunning Kruger effect. And what happens is, is we 86 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,040 actually don't have the skill or the competency to realize that 87 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,880 we don't actually know how to prioritize effectively. 88 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,760 So we all think we're better at it. 89 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,200 That's 1/2. The learning loop is broken. 90 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,080 That is to say, prioritization failures don't show up as 91 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,080 prioritization problems. Prioritization failures tend to 92 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,720 look like execution failures or strategy failures. 93 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,640 And so when there's a problem, we don't often go all the way 94 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,960 back upstream to the place that we've done the prioritization 95 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:58,040 and look at what our process was for prioritizing and real, and 96 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:02,160 then connect that to the outcomes that we either have 97 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,280 missed or, you know, failed to achieve. 98 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:13,240 And then finally, the topic, it's a little bit like decision 99 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,240 making in that it's a very broad meta topic. 100 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:22,920 And to write about it is a very tricky task because you have to 101 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:29,000 take a perspective and there isn't an intrinsically obvious 102 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:33,840 perspective to take. And so it took me realizing that 103 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:38,280 I was going to have to explain the topic through my own journey 104 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:42,600 of learning prioritization to communicate it to people. 105 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:48,280 And I think that's why it's it's, it's really been very 106 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:51,200 elusive as a topic from a book point of view. 107 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,600 Your second, but really hit home hard because I, when I started 108 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:00,000 my company last year and I'm still operating in this and 109 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,720 that's also when I wanted to finish the book. 110 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,600 And I also wanted to talk to you because when I started a 111 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:10,000 company, I had this mentality of always like trying everything, 112 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,800 like giving my best. So everything that came up to 113 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,720 me, like any opportunity, anything that I could jump on, I 114 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:20,160 would go, yes, let's do it. And the end result was that the 115 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,480 number of hours I, I could get some sleep in the number of 116 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,200 hours like everything on like besides work was very determined 117 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,880 by the number of yes, that I said the number of times I 118 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,680 agreed to do something throughout the day. 119 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:39,800 So I was really like just doing everything and ending up doing 120 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,720 everything in a very mediocre way because the calendar was 121 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,280 just overflown with stuff. Everything was just cramped in 122 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,240 and I felt like, oh, I, I get everything done somehow. 123 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,120 So I really felt that I'm good at prioritizing stuff, right? 124 00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,240 I'm good at setting goals and achieving them. 125 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,760 But actually the what I did is deliver like a very mediocre 126 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,760 quality. And I was always like thinking 127 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,320 that it's an execution error just like you said, like I'm 128 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:15,280 just not good at this when in when in fact I had very odd 129 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,360 oddly set my priorities to do everything and the result of it 130 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,400 was that my capacities didn't really match my plans. 131 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,640 Yeah. And it's fascinating because a 132 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,320 little bit like strategy, right? If we had infinite resources, we 133 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,799 would do everything, right. But we don't. 134 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:36,840 We have limited time, we have limited attention, we have 135 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,480 limited energy. We have limited resources. 136 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:44,960 And therefore, in order to do our best work, in order to be 137 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,240 our most effective, we have to know what matters most. 138 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,440 We have to align who we are with what we're passionate about, 139 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,640 with what we're capable of doing, with what we're trying to 140 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,680 accomplish. That's a prioritization 141 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,960 challenge. Maybe we can go through the 142 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:02,640 episode at three different steps. 143 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,400 Step one that I wanted to cover is like, how do I personally set 144 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,720 my priorities and also like keep my priorities straight? 145 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,080 And 2nd, if I'm working within a team, like let's say 10 people 146 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,920 and we need to set priorities, that could be the second layer. 147 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,120 And the third layer when I wanted where I wanted to finish 148 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:28,880 this episode was to like, if I'm running a company saying about 149 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,080 200 people, big engineering department maybe, how do I set 150 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,440 priorities and how do I keep priorities within such large 151 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,840 organizations where it's so dependent on teams and 152 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,080 individuals and everything has to work together somehow. 153 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,080 Yeah, I think that's a fair approach. 154 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,120 And incidentally, you've probably discovered that's how I 155 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,240 wrote the book, right? I set the book up so that the 156 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,560 fundamentals of prioritization are really in Part 1 and Part 2. 157 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,000 And then Part 3 is about prioritizing as an individual. 158 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,120 The next part is about prioritizing as a team. 159 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:06,600 And then the last part is about prioritizing as an organization. 160 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,160 And then I break each of those up into what it means to 161 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:16,280 prioritize in one off or infrequent situations versus 162 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:22,440 prioritizing in periodic or continuous in a continuous way. 163 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:28,400 So you know, from I, I think 1, if you take a step back, one of 164 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,800 the most, I think important concepts in the book, and I draw 165 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,480 on this concept largely from the work that Jocko Willink and Leif 166 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,200 Babin brought forward in their book Extreme ownership is you 167 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,440 really have to start with self right. 168 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,280 It is decidedly unhelpful to tell other people they need to 169 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,240 get their priorities straight, right? 170 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,560 The most important thing you can do is understand what's 171 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:55,960 important to you and what's less important to you and work on 172 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,760 your own priorities, your own prioritization process, and your 173 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,680 own getting your own priorities straight. 174 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,600 And so from a personal point of view, I think simplifying the 175 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:09,680 process down to three things and turning it into a routine that 176 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:16,240 you can execute daily if possible, certainly regularly 177 00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:20,840 and absolutely weekly into some kind of periodic process 178 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,280 involves staying keenly attuned to what it is that you're 179 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,560 avoiding. That's really critical. 180 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:34,400 Two, what it is that has a very high cost of delay, and I'll 181 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,720 explain that more in a moment. And then third, making sure that 182 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,760 you are clear about, from a strategic point of view, what 183 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,320 matters most. And then what is it going to 184 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:49,360 take day in and day out to continue making progress toward 185 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,120 that? The reason I set it up like 186 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,240 that, I call this a morning boot routine. 187 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,360 Lots of people will promote different ways of starting their 188 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,240 day. And to me, it doesn't matter so 189 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,840 much whether you start your day with like this or you end your 190 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,320 day like this. The most important thing is that 191 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:09,600 you engage reality in a way that says, look, if you're avoiding 192 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,360 something, you're probably spending energy to avoid it. 193 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,120 And there may be very good reasons you're avoiding it, but 194 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,800 avoiding it is typically unhelpful. 195 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,680 It locks up energy. It prevents you from moving 196 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:28,920 forward in areas that are likely to be quite helpful. 197 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,360 And so by prioritizing what you're avoiding, whether it's a 198 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,520 difficult conversation with somebody else, maybe it's a 199 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,600 difficult conversation with yourself, maybe it's a risk, 200 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:42,960 maybe it's a symptom you're having in your body. 201 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,520 Maybe it's a project that you really need to get started by 202 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,040 prioritizing what you're avoiding and then beginning to 203 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,760 make progress on that. You release energy and it 204 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,920 becomes a virtuous cycle to to make progress toward what 205 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,080 matters most. And it also takes way more 206 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,480 energy to then finally do the thing that you you're avoiding. 207 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,280 Like for, at least for me, it's in a way that I, if I'm avoiding 208 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,320 something that I actually have to like doing all the paperwork 209 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,920 for whatever. The longer I'm waiting, the 210 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,240 longer I'm pushing this back, the harder it like the more 211 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,480 energy it takes to really get into it and, and get it done. 212 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,560 Like some sort of activation energy threshold that I have to 213 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:29,240 overcome in order to really cross it off my list. 214 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,280 Yeah. And and that's blocking energy 215 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,640 and it really, it blocks our body and our minds and our 216 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,960 spirits from moving forward in the world in a productive and 217 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,960 creative way. And so by putting that 1st and 218 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,920 identifying what it is you're avoiding and then making that a 219 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:54,320 priority, you release all sorts of energy and you typically will 220 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,840 make progress on whatever it is that's holding you back. 221 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,560 The second thing, as I mentioned a minute ago, is pinpointing 222 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:03,960 what has the highest cost of delay, right? 223 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,080 I'm a terrible procrastinator, right? 224 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,040 I will put off buying plane tickets and making commitments 225 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,800 to get a hotel. I, I, I am, it's, it's horrible, 226 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,920 right? Except what happens is that the 227 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,640 longer I wait, the more expensive the tickets get. 228 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,440 And sometimes I can't get the hotel room I want. 229 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,760 Sometimes the whole trip becomes something I have to put off 230 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,640 until later. And so by understanding what has 231 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,680 a high cost of delay, that is the longer you delay or the 232 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,160 higher the cost, then focusing on that thing that's preventing 233 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,200 you from getting what you want. By picking off that thing with 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,480 the highest cost of delay, once again, it releases energy and 235 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,600 helps you move forward in a way that becomes a virtuous cycle. 236 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:53,520 And then the, the, the real magic is in paying attention to 237 00:14:53,520 --> 00:15:01,520 what longer term strategic or important project or whatever 238 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:06,560 your goal, whatever your goal is, and breaking that down into 239 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:12,160 the next very specific thing that you can do to nudge that 240 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,760 forward. And it doesn't have to be be 241 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,560 very big and make a commitment to yourself usually by putting 242 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,160 it on your calendar, maybe just for a 15 minutes, maybe for 1/2 243 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,520 an hour, OK, maybe it's a four hour block, whatever it's going 244 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,800 to be. But really the next most crucial 245 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,360 step to move that forward and then activate on those three 246 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,640 things that I've just said, I can typically for myself at this 247 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,080 point roll through that in about 1/2 an hour every day, which 248 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,840 means that I can accomplish writing a book. 249 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,600 It means that I can record my own podcast. 250 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,480 It means that I can start my own business. 251 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,200 It means that I can attend to my family and friends. 252 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,600 It means that I can work on my personal projects. 253 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,920 And I will tell you, a lot of stuff doesn't get done, but 254 00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:01,520 those things are less important to me. 255 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,800 I, I can totally see how this is working out in, in, in your or 256 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,920 in my environment where we are self-employed or we run our own 257 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,720 business, have our own projects set up and everything. 258 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,200 But if you're like in a nine to five job and you have like 2, 259 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,640 two small kids at home or maybe a baby at home, I can see how 260 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,160 this gets really, really hard because you make up your mind at 261 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:28,920 the start of your day, but then kindergarten calls, your child 262 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,880 is sick, your boss yells about targets that you didn't hit 263 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,000 right. And you still have to keep those 264 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,680 priorities somehow. So I, I find it really hard to, 265 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:45,080 to think about that average family person on a nine to five 266 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,160 job to really embody that in, in a daily workflow and then also 267 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,080 keep it throughout the day. Do you have any tips on on on 268 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,760 how to do that? Well, First off, I really, I 269 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,000 really empathize with what you're saying because that's 270 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,880 real life, right? But I'll tell you, it's a lot 271 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,000 harder if you don't know what's most important, because what 272 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,160 that means is that you're going to be expending energy on things 273 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,079 that are going to have less of an impact. 274 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,160 And so when my life gets crazy, typically what I'll do is I'll 275 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,520 focus on the thing I'm avoiding only, right? 276 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,920 And once I get through that, then I'm like, Oh my, Oh my God, 277 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,119 is there something that has a high cost of delay? 278 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:24,599 It doesn't have to be in my work life. 279 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,280 It might be in my family, my personal life. 280 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,360 And then I'll do that. And maybe I won't get to the 281 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:32,640 thing that has a strategic impact, right? 282 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,720 But if I'm doing, if I'm, if I'm focusing on the thing that's 283 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:45,040 going to that I'm avoiding and I am intentionally ensuring that I 284 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:51,240 have a pinpoint attention on the thing that has the highest cost 285 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:56,680 of delay, I'm much more likely to be able to stay in control of 286 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,840 the timeline in my life. And if I do get knocked off 287 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,400 course, and I will, right, Someone will yell at me. 288 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,640 I'll get pulled over by a cop for a ticket. 289 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,400 I won't, you know, something will happen that I'll get 290 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,720 disrupted. What it does is it allows me to 291 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,000 get back to the things that matter most very quickly, right? 292 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,920 And rather than getting swept up in the maelstrom, the storm of 293 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:25,240 real life, I will be able to make at least keep going on the 294 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:34,840 things that are most important. Another topic that I, I wanted 295 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:41,640 to stress is if you're within a team of people and you sort of 296 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,120 all have to align on certain priorities, or if you're leading 297 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,520 A-Team and you have to set those priorities. 298 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,320 How do you do this in a way that keeps people engaged and 299 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,480 focused, but also sort of gets their buy in on those 300 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,280 priorities? Because I would assume that this 301 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,640 is also super important that to not just blindly follow other 302 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,360 priorities where you're not agreeing with. 303 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,040 So what tips do you have for like team members, but also for 304 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,760 leaders of teams who are responsible for setting 305 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,400 priorities on their teams? Yeah. 306 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,720 And it gets tricky here, right? And this comes back to some of 307 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,520 what we talked about early on, which is why no one up to this 308 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,280 point wrote a book on prioritization. 309 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,920 And that's because at the team level, prioritization is much 310 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,200 better understood because you're in the context of a discipline, 311 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,560 whether it's construction or emergency response, aerospace 312 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,320 engineering, oil and gas, whatever it happens to be. 313 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,640 And so there are typically techniques and methods that 314 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:51,280 exist for teams that are, that apply directly to, to the 315 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,800 discipline that you're in and the type of team that you're on. 316 00:19:54,120 --> 00:20:00,600 And so that's a place where it is the, the tip is, it's so 317 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,160 important to make sure that people buy into the process. 318 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,840 It's far more important in my opinion. 319 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,400 That people buy into the process, then that you get the 320 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,520 priorities right, Because if people buy into the process and 321 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,840 they contribute and they feel heard, they're much more likely 322 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,240 to go along with an outcome that is not necessarily something 323 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,760 they agree with, but they feel like they've participated in the 324 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,800 process of getting to. And so I think that's far more 325 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,240 important to me than getting the right process, using the right 326 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,280 technique and picking the right framework or trying to tell 327 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:40,720 people what their priorities are. 328 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,000 Make sure that you've got people engaged in what that process is, 329 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,200 that they understand why it's important that they participate, 330 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,800 that they understand what the items or the potential 331 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,640 priorities are and how they're being prioritized. 332 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,520 And that way, when you end up with a list of priorities, 333 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,800 people can look at them and go, you know, I really disagree with 334 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,120 that one at the top. But you know, I understood the 335 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,560 conversation that got us there. So, you know, I'll, I'll 336 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,320 disagree, but I'll commit. And, you know, whether you're 337 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,640 prioritizing risks or investments or product features 338 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,320 or, you know, project plans, it doesn't really matter. 339 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:26,240 Get people involved and make sure that they feel like they 340 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,160 are committed to the conversation and that they 341 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:35,720 really understand how and why items or potential priorities 342 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,680 are being elevated or demoted because that allows people to 343 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,560 really get behind the process. You touched the topic of 344 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:47,520 frameworks and and maybe tools for prioritisation. 345 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,160 Just a couple of episodes I was recording about OK Rs as a case 346 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,840 study from one of the largest German e-commerce businesses. 347 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,280 Do you have an opinion on how how far frameworks can go and 348 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,000 how frameworks could could help you to set a key priorities? 349 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,000 Sure. I mean, I spend a lot of time on 350 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,160 this in the book, but the idea is that a framework is a visual 351 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,400 tool that gives you, at least by my definition, a framework is a 352 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:21,160 visual tool that gives you a way to develop a sense of common 353 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,920 understanding about the dimensions. 354 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,880 That something becomes more versus less important versus 355 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,320 something like a sorting technique in a spreadsheet or 356 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,720 versus a marketplace simulation that you might use that allows 357 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,440 you to, you know, make trade-offs using game mechanics, 358 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,680 for example. So The thing is, is there are, I 359 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,000 don't know, maybe I'll say they're probably a couple of 360 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,000 dozen frameworks, maybe a couple of dozen sorting techniques and 361 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,560 maybe a couple of dozen simulation marketplace 362 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,360 simulation models that are very, very common. 363 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,960 The thing is, is they're, they're more being invented 364 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,480 every day. And so what's far more important 365 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,840 than which tool you pick, which sorting technique or which 366 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,440 framework you choose, is that people feel like they understand 367 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,080 why you're using the method that you're using and that they feel 368 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,240 like they can contribute to the conversation. 369 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:25,640 And at the end of the day, what you're really trying to do is 370 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:31,520 take items which are potential priorities and evaluate them 371 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,120 against other potential priorities in a way that makes 372 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,600 sense. And facilitating that 373 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,560 conversation is often easier if you do it in a visual framework. 374 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,800 But when when the number of priorities or the number of 375 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,600 potential priorities starts to get large, frameworks sometimes 376 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,120 become a little unwieldy. But it's a great place to start. 377 00:23:56,120 --> 00:24:00,080 And sometimes it's easier to move a large number of potential 378 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,360 priorities into some kind of sorting technique, whether it's 379 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:06,160 done in a purpose built tool or whether it's done in a 380 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,480 spreadsheet. But I like to start with 381 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,920 frameworks because I think it's a great place to get the 382 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,440 conversation going and get people to debate what matters 383 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,320 more versus what matters less. Yeah. 384 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,360 And you also mentioned that it's important to also have that 385 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,880 bottom up energy when it comes to like the participation of the 386 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,600 team, when it comes to setting priorities. 387 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,600 And I wonder how managers do that when their organization is 388 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,520 a couple of 100 people. I feel that's kind of a big 389 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,480 thing to really engage with everyone individually. 390 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,960 Almost important probably, almost impossible, probably. 391 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,280 But what tips and techniques do you see on setting priorities 392 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,960 and also like keeping priorities when it comes to very large 393 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,480 organizations that operate across different countries or 394 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,760 maybe different time zones to bring really bring everyone on 395 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,800 board on the process? Yeah, I think. 396 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,840 There are a couple of ways to think about this. 397 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,440 First and foremost is to make sure that leadership is on the 398 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,160 same page, right? And often in an organization, 399 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,080 leadership is not on the same page. 400 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,560 So when you say on the same page, you mean like they are 401 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,040 like they aligned themselves on on a set of priorities? 402 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,880 Well, at least on a set of values and possibly on a set of 403 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,400 high level goals and and certainly on a strategy. 404 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:30,200 And if you can do that, the next thing that you got to do is get 405 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:36,600 the get the executive leadership to agree on the criteria that 406 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,440 they're using for evaluating priorities. 407 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,040 It's more important to get them to agree on the, the, the 408 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,760 criteria and on the relative value of each criterion than it 409 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,800 is for them to debate one project over another. 410 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,760 And the last chapter of my book addresses a a method called AHP, 411 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,920 the analytic hierarchy process, which does just that and is a 412 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,640 very powerful method for helping leaders get on the same page 413 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,760 about what it is, their convictions, how their 414 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,360 convictions line up with their particular functional areas, and 415 00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:19,480 the kind of investments that they might want to make. 416 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,680 If you can get your executives on roughly the same page, the 417 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,680 rest of the process flows a lot easier. 418 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,840 But leaving that aside for a minute, another technique that 419 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,520 is discussed in the book is the notion of catch ball, which is 420 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,720 at any level in the organization. 421 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,240 If you have a lot of conviction about what's most important, 422 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,800 making sure you have enough time to communicate it down to the 423 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,680 next level and get feedback so that you can roll it back up 424 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,000 becomes that engagement process so that people feel like they're 425 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,960 being heard and they're being considered. 426 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,640 Because the lower you get in the organization, so to speak, the 427 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,880 closer you're going to get to customers, partners, suppliers, 428 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:12,520 you're going to be communicating with what you might characterize 429 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,080 as the edges of the network where the actual interaction 430 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,920 with the real world is happening. 431 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,360 And those people have a very nuanced sense of what's 432 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:23,120 important and what's not important. 433 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,960 And so it's important, I think from a prioritization point of 434 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:32,280 view, if you have team leads or managers or managers of managers 435 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,640 or directors, that what you're doing is connecting the top and 436 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:40,560 the bottom and not necessarily on all the specific priorities, 437 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,040 but at least on the criteria that you're using for evaluating 438 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,960 priorities. So that if you have a small, 439 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,720 very granular priority at the bottom that it actually connects 440 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,000 to the thing at the top. And OK Rs are a great example of 441 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,280 that, right? The most effective OK Rs cascade 442 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,760 from a strategy, you know, from leadership convictions to a 443 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,600 strategy, to a set of overarching goals, to a set of 444 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,800 functional goals, to a set of objectives, to a set of OK Rs, 445 00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,440 right? And the more the greater 446 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720 alignment you have with that, the more your company's going to 447 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:28,000 look like Apple or Amazon or name your favorite company, and 448 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,520 the less it's going to look like companies that are no longer 449 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,720 here that couldn't figure out how to do that. 450 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,320 One thing that I always see when I'm looking when I'm working 451 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,680 with like CC level executives is that they have this kind of 452 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,080 bizarre, not bizarre, but bizarre situation where where 453 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,840 they sort of do trade-offs. Like you get this, I get that, 454 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,680 you get your project here, but I need to get my project over 455 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,480 there. And it's not really following an 456 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,600 overall strategy or vision for the company. 457 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,920 It's more like you get your little sandbox here and I get to 458 00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:04,240 keep my little playground here. So what is your tip on really 459 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,800 escaping that kind of trap? So that's that. 460 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,480 We call that horse trading, you know, and that's when people are 461 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,040 trading their pet projects for other pet projects or what it is 462 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,120 they think are most important. And that's precisely what 463 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,360 chapters 12 and 13 in my book address, right? 464 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,400 Which is how do you get executives on the same page? 465 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:31,440 By having them show up and communicate what criteria 466 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,880 they're using for evaluating projects. 467 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,960 Because if you can get them to agree on the evaluation 468 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,280 criteria, and by evaluation criteria, I mean a dimension of 469 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,960 what's most important, and you can get them to agree on 470 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,760 important differences between evaluation criteria. 471 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,560 It becomes a lot easier to say this project is more valuable 472 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:01,280 than this project because this project aligns more directly 473 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,640 with the strategy that we have. And this project, while it may 474 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,960 be important to you or maybe important to some of your 475 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,280 constituents or people on your team, actually doesn't for the 476 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,680 following reasons. And once you've had that 477 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,120 conversation, then you can make intelligent trade-offs because 478 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,960 you don't have to not make trade-offs. 479 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,960 What you want to do is make intelligent trade-offs, as you 480 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,960 want the bulk of your trade-offs to be in service of a strategy 481 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,440 that you already have the rest of the organization agreeing to 482 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,160 is going to help you win. I think that takes a really 483 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,440 interesting cultural aspect that is like a very open and very 484 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,720 honest culture about like the the KPIs on the certain project 485 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,400 and the estimated outcome of the project or the estimated cost of 486 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,680 delay of the project. But also a culture of it's cool 487 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,680 for me to challenge your numbers when we talk about setting 488 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,840 priorities. And I don't really see that in 489 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,160 many organizations that have that culture, especially on AC 490 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:13,080 level where you always try to, to keep your ground and, and, 491 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,240 and keep your status as well. Because you're not only like 492 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,320 being the executive for a certain part of a company, but 493 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,320 you're also involved in company politics, right? 494 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:29,040 And what do you think about like overcoming those politics and 495 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,760 sort of could be a very first step towards getting more of 496 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,760 that that cultural, that culture that is needed to really set 497 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,600 those priorities and have those conversations? 498 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,080 Yeah. I mean, to me, this really boils 499 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,680 down to, are you going to fight internally or are you going to 500 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,520 fight with the market, right. Where do you want your energy? 501 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,920 Because the companies that figure this out, the companies 502 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,440 that figure out how to align what they think is critical with 503 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,960 the market opportunities they have, with the goals that they 504 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,720 set, the strategy that they have, the priorities that they 505 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,160 determine, those are the companies that are going to 506 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,920 become more competitive. And if if you're fighting 507 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,600 amongst yourself or if you're politicking or if you're horse 508 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,920 trading for resources, you're not optimizing against the 509 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,720 market, you're optimizing internally against yourself. 510 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,840 And that is not a place to be expending your energy. 511 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,640 So it to some extent it, it really is a leadership, 512 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,040 fundamentally a leadership problem. 513 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,120 And I mean top level leadership. The the most effective, most 514 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,960 profitable companies and most effective and, and, and most 515 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,680 durable long lived organizations in the world. 516 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,800 Figure out how to connect the vision at the top with what's 517 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,040 happening at the bottom. The companies that don't survive 518 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,840 tend to not to do that. So it becomes a question of who 519 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,320 do you want to be and do you want to stay around? 520 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,280 True. Before closing our episode, do 521 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,640 you have one tip that could give our listeners back their 522 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,960 timeline? Like one thing, they could start 523 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,200 right after closing this episode. 524 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,400 I'm a big fan of Start with Yourself, and if you're going to 525 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,440 start with yourself, the most impactful way to do that is to 526 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,480 be incredibly honest with yourself about what you're 527 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,600 avoiding day in and day out and prioritize that and deal with 528 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:37,720 it, because that will move you ahead further than anything if 529 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,560 you do nothing else. Focus on yourself. 530 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,360 Focus on what you're avoiding and then begin the process of 531 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:52,240 prioritizing prioritization as a practice day in and day out. 532 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,720 All right, thank you so much for making it to the episodes and 533 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,760 thank you so much for sharing your insights and your 534 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,160 learnings. For everyone interested in the 535 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,760 book is called Managing Priorities. 536 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,600 I have the link in the show notes below. 537 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,640 And what is a good way to reach out if people have questions, if 538 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,440 people want to engage in the conversation? 539 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,000 Yeah, I'm easily findable everywhere. 540 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,239 LinkedIn is probably the best. SO Harry Max at, you know, 541 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:20,360 LinkedIn. I also, I'm Harry at 542 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:25,639 harrymax.com, so you can find me on the Internet at my own domain 543 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,520 name. And then I have a business 544 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,000 called Peak Priorities, so you can always reach me there. 545 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,920 And yeah, I love to, I love to talk about this stuff and, you 546 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,080 know, bring your hardest challenge forward and let's see 547 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,679 if we can make some progress on it. 548 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,360 All right. Thank you so much for coming on 549 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,400 to the show. I really appreciate it and talk 550 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,520 to you very soon. Yeah, it was a real pleasure. 551 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,480 Thank you so much. Bye. 552 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,360 Thanks everyone for making it to the end of this very special 553 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,120 episode. We got a lot more studio 554 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,560 recordings line up. It would be super cool to hear 555 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,240 your thoughts about them. Till then, see you very very 556 00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,000 soon, like I mean really soon. Bye.