1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,640 Hey everyone, Ben here. Welcome back to the Stellar Work 2 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,240 podcast. Today I'm joined by Daria 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,960 Smitzel, a professor of software engineering at the Black King. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,240 I hope I pronounce that correct. Institute of Technology in 5 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,840 Sweden. Daria is a leading expert on 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,080 distributed development and has been researching virtual teams 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,120 since well before the pandemic. In this episode, we dive into 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,760 the massive shifts we've seen in the workspace over the last five 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,840 years. We discuss her data back, 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,200 insights on why fully remote onboarding can lead to higher 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:45,120 turnover, the cultural nuances of hybrid work, and the magic of 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,680 in person connection that we often miss when working from 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,440 home. Daria also explains why there is 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,680 no silver bullet for office policies and how companies can 15 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,040 discover their own DNA to build a successful hybrid culture. 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,600 It's an interesting episode that you don't want to miss if you 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,280 ever work or currently are working in an hybrid or remote 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,440 setting. All right, enough of the intro. 19 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,720 It's way too long anyway, let's start. 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,880 Hello, Daria, welcome to the Star Work Podcast. 21 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,040 Hello Ben, Thank you for inviting me. 22 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,320 It's been a couple of weeks, months since we met. 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,560 In about a month. Yeah, and I'm really happy to 24 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,080 see you again. Thank you Likewise. 25 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:36,440 You gave an you gave an awesome talk, like capturing the past 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,000 five years of remote work and how that affected teams and how 27 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,160 things changed. So I'm really excited to do this 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,360 episode with you. Great. 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,480 The pleasure is all mine. The more we can spread our 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,520 research results, the better. Where does this podcast find 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,240 you? You're in Sweden at the moment. 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,960 Yes, I'm, I'm in Sweden and I'm not working from home today. 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,200 I'm working at the Blacking Institute of Technology's 34 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,199 podcast room, right? Now, all right, right, right at 35 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,320 university. Pretty cool. 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:16,240 Tell us a little bit about your work. 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:23,120 You've been researching and Metro researching teams on how 38 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:26,440 in the past five years all of that remote work and hybrid work 39 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,800 has affected them and what has changed along those years, and 40 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,600 maybe you could share some of your insights. 41 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,520 Right. So today we will talk about the 42 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:42,440 data we have collected I guess. And actually the story is a 43 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,520 little bit longer. It's not just five last years 44 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,520 I've been an expert on distributed development and 45 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,640 outsourcing. So I've studied virtual teams 46 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:56,000 very a long time before the pandemic hit us. 47 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:01,760 And during the pandemic, my subject study subjects, you can 48 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,280 say scaled to the whole population of knowledge workers. 49 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,640 That must be, yeah. That must have been crazy, 50 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:09,720 right? You just. 51 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,480 Saw it was crazy. I have mixed feelings about it 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,760 as you can imagine. I do. 53 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,760 I do. And overnight, I became an 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,800 expert on remote work and when the offices opened, then I 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:24,760 became an expert on hybrid working. 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,160 So ever since we are during the pandemic and ever since the 57 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:34,120 reopening, we are supporting quite many companies trying to 58 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,760 understand what policies suit better their work culture and 59 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,320 how to preserve performance and how to preserve retention of the 60 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,400 employees also in the companies. And the companies I work with 61 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,440 are quite exciting, for example, Spotify, Ericsson, Telenor, 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:59,000 Sturibrand, Sony. So those are mainly Scandinavian 63 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,560 if not Swedish companies, right? Well, Sony is Japanese company, 64 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,000 but they all have sites in Sweden. 65 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,840 So we work with the primarily Swedish companies, Swedish 66 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,600 sites, but also with their sites around the world. 67 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,120 So during the pandemic, for example, I interviewed Spotify 68 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,240 employees in London and in New York. 69 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,680 I spoke to Ericsson employees in India and in Germany. 70 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,960 So it's a mixture. Were you able to find like 71 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,480 cultural differences or is it like across the board pretty 72 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:39,640 much a very, do you see very common patterns across the board 73 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,960 or do you see like specific in specific regions or specific 74 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:49,000 cultures differences in the way they approach hybrid work or 75 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,480 remote work? There are always cultural 76 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,520 differences, of course. They are can be subtile. 77 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,640 They can be huge. We don't systematically study 78 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,680 them. But as some anecdotes from my 79 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:07,360 interviews, I can mention a few. For example, in the US during 80 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:13,080 the pandemic, people saw in their video cameras a lot of 81 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:17,760 these backgrounds from home and from kids, from pets. 82 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:23,280 And in some cultures, of course, for example in India, people 83 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:26,920 know everything about you, everything, because they connect 84 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,400 through knowing your background and private information. 85 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,200 In other cultures, like in Sweden and in US, people don't 86 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,360 share private information very much with their colleagues. 87 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:43,160 So these were windows into world they have never seen and they 88 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:48,160 could maybe have more empathy towards each other and connect 89 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,840 on a different level. I mean, just look at our 90 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:53,000 backgrounds. I'm from Germany, you're from 91 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,720 Sweden. We both both have very anonymous 92 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,360 backgrounds. Like you can't tell anything 93 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,960 about where we are. Exactly. 94 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:05,680 And another interesting difference is the traffic 95 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,720 situations. So when we talk about coming to 96 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,600 the office for a couple of hours, meeting in Coscrona, 97 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:20,720 where I'm from right now, I live in a city or a town of 60,000 98 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,040 people. Most people live within 15 99 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,720 minutes of walking to the office or 20 minutes of driving to the 100 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,760 office. And when you have the same work 101 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:38,000 policies in India, where commute can take 1 1/2 hour one way, 102 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,280 it's a completely different story. 103 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,160 Yeah, you suddenly when when you work from home. 104 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,360 In that scenario you you just right away get 3 hours of your 105 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,400 life back. Yes. 106 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,240 That's pretty, pretty amazing. Not only time wise but sometimes 107 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:57,560 it's it's dangerous to take transportation, public 108 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:03,080 transportation or taxis maybe. Maybe before we get too deep 109 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,800 into this, can you walk us through what happened in the 110 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,280 last five years? Have there been some 111 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:13,960 evolutionary steps that you were able to recognise some some 112 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,680 shifts and fluctuations? How companies approach that 113 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,280 situation? Can you just give us a brief 114 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,560 walkthrough of what happened in that field? 115 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,480 Sure. I'm I'm not quite certain where 116 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,240 to start. I think where I would lean 117 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,840 towards is the media headlines because that's what everybody's 118 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:41,360 seeing and reading. And I think the first thing that 119 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,840 we saw was that a lot of companies send their employees 120 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,320 to work from home. Some of them were prepared for 121 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,880 it. For example, companies that have 122 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,200 a lot of sites around the world, they have been distributed in 123 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,080 and supported with the infrastructure to connect 124 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,200 digital all the way before the pandemic. 125 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,480 And a lot of other companies had to invest into infrastructure, 126 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,720 into licenses and tools and equipment and also allowing 127 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,600 police to take that equipment, equipment with them home. 128 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,640 And once we have done that big step, a lot of people who have 129 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,400 not worked from home before realize that it's actually 130 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,480 working. And some companies realize they 131 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,240 can save a lot of money on the offices. 132 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,600 And since we didn't know, we were waiting for the reopening 133 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,240 and the pandemic ending soon, soon. 134 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,240 And after some maybe 3-4 months into the pandemic, everyone 135 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,800 realized, well, we're not returning anytime soon. 136 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,960 So plans started to shift and change. 137 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:56,760 I, I saw that as well here in Germany. 138 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,280 But then at a certain level or at a certain time, companies 139 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:05,080 recognise that they couldn't get out of their rent contract for 140 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,600 their office building like within a year or so because the 141 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,040 rent is for let's say 10 or 15 years set. 142 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:18,600 So then they had this, oh, we're under utilising our office and 143 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,280 we want everyone to come back to have a good utilization rate and 144 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,560 to really make that investment worth, right, Correct. 145 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:29,240 Something similar. Absolutely. 146 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,520 So one of the industries that has undergone the major 147 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,120 transformation is the rental office buildings. 148 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,920 The contract duration now is not the same as before the pandemic. 149 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:46,720 So now the new contracts are maybe 3-5 years long and not ten 150 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:52,480 and 15 years long. And definitely we, we, I have 151 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:58,120 talked to people asking what was the reason for making the 152 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,000 mandates of for employees to return to the office work after 153 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,760 the pandemic. And in a few companies, the only 154 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,280 reason is because we have the office we need to justify this 155 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,720 investment. And that's not a very good value 156 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:18,880 proposition when it comes to changing the from a fully remote 157 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,880 to maybe fully on site or 3-4 days on site working. 158 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,320 Yeah. And another reason that at least 159 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:36,000 I saw within the tech industry was to sort of force layoffs or 160 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,360 to let go of people like you give them the opportunity to 161 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,120 work from home for two years. Everyone's setting up their 162 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,560 office, putting investment in there and maybe moving out of 163 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:53,080 the city to have a little bit less spending on rent because 164 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,280 they realise they can work from home and now the company's 165 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,800 asking them to come to the office. 166 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,200 We saw that in the US, where which company was it, I think it 167 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,120 was Salesforce, who hired remote people and then asked them to 168 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,200 come to the office or leave. Leave the job instead. 169 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,600 Yes, and we want the. Strategies that that you sell. 170 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:23,040 I'm not, I, I haven't spoken to any companies with that specific 171 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,640 strategy or maybe they wouldn't acknowledge that. 172 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,920 But what we see is that a lot of young people who have taken up 173 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,960 the jobs during the pandemic or shortly after with the more 174 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,720 flexible policies, they have signed up for a different job. 175 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,400 So when a company decides to make three days office in the 176 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,560 office policies, they say no thank you, we will. 177 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:54,520 We have not signed up for that and we have not been employed by 178 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,560 the company with office presence. 179 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,760 So what do you think? Is all of this heading? 180 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,280 Like are we is, is there a hybrid thing to settle? 181 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,120 Are there specific industries that will be fully remote into 182 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,800 the future? Like, do you see a trajectory 183 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,920 where this goes? There is no one trajectory that 184 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,720 is something that I have seen. I have seen and I fully believe 185 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:25,560 that there is a space on the market, job market for companies 186 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:29,840 that are fully remote, fully on side and everything in between. 187 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,520 I don't really like stigmatizing companies that want their 188 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,960 employees inside the offices because for example, I've worked 189 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,480 with a small and medium companies that say we're like a 190 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:48,600 family, we are performing well because we are all close friends 191 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:55,800 and we have this ad hoc natural organic coordination when we are 192 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:01,000 sharing the same office and that's our key to success. 193 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,640 So why would we blame these companies for being maybe 194 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,360 tailoristic control oriented? This is not what the office 195 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,880 presence is about for them. Yeah, makes sense. 196 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,640 Do you see pattern in like company sizes or different 197 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,600 industries? A little bit. 198 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:27,040 So the bigger the company, the more days in the office or the 199 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:35,120 they would like to have office presence and smaller companies 200 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,280 there are a little bit more flexible and maybe fewer days in 201 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:44,560 the office because it's easier to agree on which days you are 202 00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,920 in the office when you're a small company. 203 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,280 When it's a big company, you can effectively avoid each other 204 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,320 coming simply coming on Mondays and Fridays. 205 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,440 Yeah, yeah. I, I was just about to tell you 206 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,320 the story that I heard last week from one of my clients where one 207 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,240 of their employees said like, OK, like my office days are 208 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,040 Mondays, Fridays, because then I can work like really focused and 209 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,600 get stuff done. And everyone else is coming in 210 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,720 on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in order to extend the weekend. 211 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,840 Yes, exactly. So this is a very typical 212 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,040 pattern in Scandinavian companies. 213 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,480 But actually one of the surprising findings for us was a 214 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,960 Portuguese company or a Norwegian company with a site in 215 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:38,680 Portugal where everybody came on Fridays, everyone worked four 216 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,480 days at home, and then on Fridays everyone was in because 217 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,920 they wanted to coordinate, to see what has happened during the 218 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,920 week, who has done what, and maybe go for a drink after after 219 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:53,360 work. I. 220 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,200 Mean if I was wondering like if you have fixed policies within 221 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,400 your company to maybe come in on Thursday, Friday and have Home 222 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,240 Office Monday to Wednesday. You could rent the same place 223 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,280 for out for two different companies, right? 224 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,520 One company with their policies at the start of the week and 225 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,920 another company with the policies at the end of the week 226 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,320 and have like a shared service centre taking care of the office 227 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,080 and all the all the stuff that is going around on the office. 228 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,040 I think that would be a little bit maybe from security 229 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,320 perspective and not very good move. 230 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,160 But you know, Ben, I've seen companies that have two shifts 231 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,440 with a smaller downsized office. They cannot have desks for 232 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,000 everyone. So they distribute the days when 233 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,240 these people are in the office and when other people are in the 234 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,400 office. During your research, what was 235 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,520 the most surprising thing that you found? 236 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:03,000 Most surprising, there are so many surprises, you know, Yeah, 237 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:08,160 I think one of the cool thing that we have done is looking at 238 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:14,160 fully remote onboarding in Ericsson in Sweden where we have 239 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,960 had the luxury of having access to 16,000 data points for the 240 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,400 last 10 years. And we have seen that those 241 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:28,160 people who have been hired during the pandemic where 242 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,920 onboarding was fully remote in five years, 40% of them quit. 243 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,800 But those who have been the good news that those who have been 244 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:45,280 onboarded after the pandemic, pandemic in a hybrid setting, 245 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:50,760 they exactly repeat the curve from pre pandemic onboarding. 246 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,720 So that was one interesting study with the yeah, quite, 247 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,000 quite surprise, not very surprising find findings, but 248 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,920 they actually the first time that we had the date of that 249 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,280 scale to show that this is not working fully remote onboarding. 250 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,359 Were you able to collect some reasons why people quit in the 251 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:21,640 the fully remote scenario? Yes, so, so these we had access 252 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,599 not only to the personnel data but also exit surveys. 253 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:30,720 And one of the reasons that have never peaked before the pandemic 254 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,680 or after the pandemic was context of the job. 255 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:41,920 So I think this proves that when you're on boarded remotely and 256 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,400 you have a certain expectation of what the job will be, the job 257 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,320 context, you might be you, you might have more surprises. 258 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:59,120 And with the very limited mentorship, you might struggle 259 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:03,920 more with your job tasks. And this is maybe and for longer 260 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,320 than expected. And without support, I think 261 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,680 people because of this, quit at higher rates. 262 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,720 Interesting. What else did you did you find 263 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,400 that surprised you? Let me think. 264 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,320 I think one of the very funny thing things that we have built 265 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,160 daily routines for days when people work from home. 266 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:37,120 And one of the things is that a lot of people don't shower and 267 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:41,000 don't have breakfast, just having some snacks or coffee at 268 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,560 the table. And, and this was, you know, 269 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,920 I've, I've spoken in different conferences and occasionally I 270 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,760 ask a question, how many people shower or don't shower during 271 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:59,760 the days when they stay at home? And people still re response to 272 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,640 this, confirming the finding that we have gotten during the 273 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:10,440 pandemic. Well, it's human in the end, I 274 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,560 guess. Yes. 275 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:18,640 And what I usually say is that when a lot of people say that 276 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,440 for me, it feels great. You know, when I can work from 277 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,240 home, it increases my well-being. 278 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,440 And I fully recognize that I also like working from home, but 279 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:37,480 not five days a week all the time because yeah, folks, 280 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,800 showering is good for us. Yeah, and only showering, like, 281 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:47,400 I mean, at least for me, from my perspective, I get super lonely 282 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,760 when I work like the full week just sitting in the basement in 283 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:58,200 front of my screen and just like talking to people virtually. 284 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,080 But not not having a real connection and not going 285 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,240 somewhere, not having to go somewhere. 286 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,720 Everything is here in my bunker. It gets, it gets really lonely 287 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:13,280 and the people that I spoke to have felt very similar 288 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,720 situations that if you have like a full time remote job, you're 289 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,560 just missing out on that social connection and it it messes with 290 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,520 you mentally, or at least in my case, it messed with us. 291 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,600 Yes, and I think there is some magic that happens in the room. 292 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,920 When we share the same place, we exchange energy in a different 293 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,400 way. You get much more out of 294 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:44,120 conversations and social interactions than digitally and 295 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:49,200 I've been trying to put a finger on this data that proves that 296 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:55,480 there is some magic, but I was so far not successful so far. 297 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:04,240 But then I I will continue. All right, let's move on to a 298 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:12,720 similar field, which is the actual performance or the way 299 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,240 teams collaborate in different settings, like if there's a 300 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,440 hybrid setting, the on site setting or a fully remote 301 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,480 setting. During your research, have you 302 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,080 seen differences in in performance depending on the 303 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,560 specific setting on how you put teams? 304 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:38,800 Performance is such great field and we're in the wrong business 305 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,320 to measure perhaps performance and productivity. 306 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:49,400 So although we have looked at individuals for example writing 307 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:56,640 code, I wouldn't say that we can actually have good in data 308 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,160 insights into that type of performance for teams. 309 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:11,240 But we did speak with people who yes, report their self perceived 310 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:17,800 productivity and people who work more remotely, they say that 311 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,680 they are, they feel more in control of their tasks and, and 312 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,360 more people report that they can finish their tasks on time. 313 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,120 So then you have already said during this conversation that 314 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:35,000 people work from home to or on Mondays and Fridays to get 315 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,360 things done. And this, this is in every study 316 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,240 we have done, this is confirmed that people stay at home to stay 317 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,600 focused. But we also see that the two 318 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,760 things, first of all, not everyone can get into this hyper 319 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,120 productivity simply because, for example, younger people who 320 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:03,200 don't know what they're doing or who, who are new to their tasks, 321 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,520 they cannot enter the flow of what the Mihaly Tik said Mihaly 322 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:15,000 described in in his book. And with the AIDS preconditions, 323 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,040 you need to have also skills to do that, yeah. 324 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,520 Can you can you give us a quick heads up on on his work? 325 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,360 Like what his definition of flow is? 326 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,840 You just casually mention it, but I assume that everyone 327 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,800 knows. Yes. 328 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,920 So this is Hungarian American, the psychologist, organizational 329 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:40,880 psychologist that has defined the flow as the momentum of deep 330 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,440 focus. When you can, you, you are 331 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,560 absorbed by your tasks. You don't see how time flies, 332 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:54,000 you don't hear noises around you, and all you can focus is on 333 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,720 your tasks at hand. And this requires a lot of 334 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,040 preconditions, and one of them is that you're not disturbed all 335 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,040 the time, and another one is that you actually know what 336 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,800 you're doing. So is there a difference in like 337 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,560 explorative work where you kind of dive into a new field and 338 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,080 just operative work where you just have to execute tasks, like 339 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,360 1 would be exploring a new industry and another would be 340 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:30,720 chopping wood? Yeah, chopping wood doesn't 341 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,120 require that much much cognitive abilities. 342 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,760 I. Don't think just executing the 343 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,600 tasks that you know pretty well, you know? 344 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,760 Yeah. No, I think that exploration 345 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:49,680 also can be with this focused attention cognitive state. 346 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,000 I don't think we should roll out any new tasks. 347 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,040 But of course the hyper productivity comes from being 348 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:03,560 focused and knowing what you do. And writing code for example is 349 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,320 one of those tasks. That is a very good example of 350 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:13,080 tasks requiring requiring cognitive ability and attention, 351 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:16,160 but also the. Knowledge of the code base, 352 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,720 right? Because you would get stuck if 353 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,280 you like, if you're a junior developer, you just, you just 354 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,760 run into something, some legacy code like from 10 years ago when 355 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,040 you just get stuck at a certain point and actually need that, 356 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:33,800 that social network catching you and like mentoring you through 357 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,200 this new lines and helping you out, which you don't have when 358 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,160 you're at home, I guess. Yes, exactly. 359 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,280 And I think this is quite an interesting area because our 360 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,600 research shows that from one side, it's a really challenging 361 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:55,080 to dig through these challenges yourself. 362 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,760 On the other hand, we also saw the evidence or or at least 363 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,160 testimonies that that people climb up their learning curves 364 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,960 faster because they're not over relying on colleagues helping 365 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:14,280 them out. But if if your tasks are super 366 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,240 complex, for example, Ericsson systems are accounts, millions 367 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,680 of lines of code, they are very complex code and complex 368 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,880 architectures. And the learning curve to be 369 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,960 really senior developer takes five years. 370 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,400 That's a very long learning curve. 371 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:38,680 And if it's not steep, steep enough, you might be junior on 372 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,520 the level of very low contribution for six months. 373 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,680 Maybe young people who sign up for these jobs are not prepared 374 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,280 for that. Maybe move from the individual 375 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,040 to more the team? How does this shift within the 376 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,440 past five years affected like teamwork or in your talk you've 377 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,200 been also talking about like agile teams. 378 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,400 So can you describe us a little bit what you found on the terms 379 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,000 of agility and teamwork when it comes to remote hybrid or on 380 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,000 site work? Right. 381 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,600 And this is where I was heading with this productivity things. 382 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:25,480 If you imagine a a team with a not, you know all alpha senior 383 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,200 developers with great knowledge of the code based and what they 384 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,040 are doing, self going, self managing teams, fully 385 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,160 autonomous, then you are in real life right? 386 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:43,360 You have teams of different maturity, you have team members 387 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,760 with different seniority. You also have a lot of 388 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:52,000 dependencies on within the team and outside of the team, which 389 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,600 means that you need to coordinate a lot. 390 00:27:55,320 --> 00:28:01,360 And we have been in our research trying to draw social networks. 391 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,920 That's every agile team maintains on a daily or weekly 392 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:12,360 basis and it can account from 25 to 50 contacts. 393 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:18,120 That's how complex coordination networks are in companies. 394 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,480 And we, you know, since I'm in this business for a very long 395 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,120 time of distributed and virtual work, I've been told all the 396 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:30,360 time that tools will help us, tools will solve all the 397 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,400 problems. And we still have technical 398 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:38,600 problems when we connect through a social, this video 399 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:44,640 conferencing, it's the same, you know, with the pull requests, 400 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,120 for example, coming from outside of the team, they are never 401 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,360 prioritized until the author of that pull request comes, knocks 402 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,840 at the door and says, OK, let me explain what I did and what I 403 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,920 need you to check. We still rely a lot on 404 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,520 interpersonal communication. We still manage to solve a lot 405 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:09,800 of problems and challenges through 5 minutes talks in the 406 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,720 corridor. When we move into digital work 407 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:21,440 world, every social interaction becomes scheduled line in our 408 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,080 calendar and we don't book 5 minute talks online. 409 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,680 The minimum is 15, but most companies have this default slot 410 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,360 of one hour or 30 minutes and that's where our time goes into. 411 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:45,200 So when teams move to working remotely, they either drop a lot 412 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,320 of rituals. For example, dailies become 413 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:54,720 weeklies and stand ups become sit downs and we don't stand 414 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,640 when we connect online. And if we encounter regularly 415 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,480 problems with Ben, you're muted, please unmute yourself. 416 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,680 Oh, you froze, you know, Oh, your Wi-Fi has a problem 417 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,480 lagging. A lot of teams have moved into 418 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,360 just the slacking their daily problems. 419 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,120 Yeah. I mean, I saw it to myself where 420 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:28,080 when I started work now 12 years ago, I had to schedule meetings 421 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,480 and the actual work would fill my calendar by itself. 422 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,920 Now I have to schedule work like focus time and the meetings will 423 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,960 fill the calendar by themselves. Exactly. 424 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:43,480 It's. Just been the other way around. 425 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,480 So we have we have actually looked at calendar data as well 426 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,480 in one of the companies and we see a lot of people booking do 427 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,800 not book this time slot or booked for work focused work. 428 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,800 It's it's happening more often now. 429 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:03,760 Yeah. And I think it's a good thing. 430 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,040 Like it really helped me when I look at the calendars, when I 431 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,240 try to book a meeting with like senior leaders from my clients 432 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:16,400 and I'm, I can access their calendar and it's just, it's 433 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,560 super cluttered. It starts at 7:00 and it ends at 434 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:25,080 like 6-7 AM and it ends at like 6:00 PM And they they just have 435 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,600 back-to-back to back-to-back meetings. 436 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,480 I'm like, OK, so if you, if you take one action item out of a 437 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,880 single meeting on that day, you're completely overbooked. 438 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:44,000 There's like. I have the worst story of having 439 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,920 three parallel meetings. Someone, and this is not like a 440 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,000 single story to be honest. People triple book themselves 441 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,520 and that they might have one meeting running on one screen, 442 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:02,320 another meeting running on another screen, muted perhaps or 443 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:08,320 muted and with audio of the speakers and one in their phone 444 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:14,880 with a speaker in their ear. We have become so disengaged in 445 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,400 meetings. So our presence is mayor, you 446 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:25,760 know, not even turning on the video, just seeming to be there 447 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,960 for everyone. And when we do that from home, 448 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,240 sometimes we also have our kids around. 449 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,000 We are preparing food for them in the morning or meeting them 450 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,520 from school and still listening into some meetings in parallel. 451 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,240 So are we. Where are we? 452 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,280 Where are we engaged? We're neither engaged in the 453 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,560 meetings nor with our children. I saw that pattern as well. 454 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,840 Were you able to collect some reasons why people do that? 455 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,240 Because in the end, they're just like they're just listening to a 456 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,080 podcast or maybe 2 podcasts at the same time, right? 457 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,960 They're not really, as you said, they're not really engaged in 458 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,760 that meeting. Why do people do this? 459 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,320 I think it's a bad habit of multitasking. 460 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:20,360 Multitasking is so addictive. We if we are only in one meeting 461 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,240 and we are not physically present because physical 462 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,120 presence puts a lot of pressure on us. 463 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,120 We would not multitask openly in front of someone because it's 464 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,640 disrespectful. But when we are sitting at home 465 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:39,280 and our video cameras are off, it feels now like a waste of 466 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,400 time, isn't it? So we are picking up our phones 467 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,400 and browsing, doing something or physically doing laundry. 468 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,120 Yeah. I mean, even if if you're just 469 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,800 we're just talking, we both try to be present. 470 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,040 You have like the whole screen with all the notifications 471 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,120 coming up, different browser windows or anything that that 472 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,080 goes on the screen which is not happening like if we would have 473 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,320 met at the coffee machine. Exactly. 474 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,840 So what interactions do you enjoy more and why? 475 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,120 Depends on what I'm trying to do, like if I want to brainstorm 476 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,560 or discuss a topic or just vent maybe. 477 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,400 Or to to pick someone's brain, I'd much rather be at a coffee 478 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:30,280 machine. But if I want to be like working 479 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:35,480 onto a very deep subject, I want to be on screen. 480 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:41,480 Actually my preferred way of doing this would be both sitting 481 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,360 in front of 1 computer, maybe having a big screen just 482 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:51,080 mirroring the the notebook or in a remote setting where we could 483 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,920 just share and work on a spreadsheet maybe. 484 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:57,360 It really depends on what. I'm trying to get out of that 485 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,360 conversation. Yeah. 486 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:04,400 And I think a lot of these other things that consume our calendar 487 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,160 time could be replaced effectively with a e-mail. 488 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,400 We are spending way too much time in meetings that do not 489 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:20,320 require our engagement. Yeah, I, I also thought about 490 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,560 like putting people in the optional box. 491 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,000 When you create a meeting, you can like invite people 492 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,120 optionally and then within the meeting invites, say if you're 493 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,320 invited optionally, you're just invited to receive the summary 494 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,080 of this e-mail as of this conversation as an e-mail, do 495 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,480 not attend. Yes, correct. 496 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,000 But you know what? This is a highly cultural thing. 497 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:50,200 So in some cultures, if you don't invite people, you're 498 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,640 being disrespectful. In other culture cultures, if 499 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,520 you're invited and you do not attend, this is also 500 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,280 disrespectful. So you need to be very careful 501 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,720 about this. Yeah, true, true. 502 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,880 So it's, it's interesting, it's it's disrespectful when you're 503 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,760 not attending, but at the same time you're attending and then 504 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,840 multitasking. Exactly. 505 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:17,320 It's a tough world we're. Living in, yeah, it's, it's 506 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:18,800 really tough. You can't win there. 507 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,600 Yes. And on top of that, you know 508 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,680 there are a lot of, we try to be efficient with meetings and we 509 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:33,080 have we learn how to do good agendas that fill the time that 510 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,880 are planned so that we can accomplish the task on time. 511 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,560 And we are shooting ourselves in the foot with this. 512 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,360 And many times when we need exploration, when we need to be 513 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,840 more creative, agendas are really bad. 514 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,200 So there is a trend for a genderless meetings at least 515 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:59,800 sometimes to book some time to just explore, just to have time 516 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,360 to talk about what's going on and drift away from perhaps 517 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,440 predefined agenda point. I always found this with 518 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,480 brainstorming or innovation workshops where you want to like 519 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:22,720 facilitate to sort of keep time, but then actually end up putting 520 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:26,760 people into a process. And there is like no perfect 521 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,360 innovation process or creativity process, right? 522 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,240 So there were people in say certain agenda and then 523 00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,200 hopefully something comes out at the end. 524 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,960 But then I more often see the magic happen where just somebody 525 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,120 super experienced goes like, this is a problem. 526 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,560 What would you do? And that could be like at the 527 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,280 coffee machine. That could be like walking to 528 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,000 the parking lot and then having that conversation or over a beer 529 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:02,160 or whatever, right. But I, I think you would need 530 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,800 that free space. But with the remote work, you 531 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,920 schedule a meeting, you fill out a form and it asks you for what 532 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,880 is the agenda and the purpose of that meeting. 533 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,680 And if I just, if I just put in, excuse my French, fuck around 534 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,880 and find out, probably nobody would attend. 535 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,560 No, it's it's tricky. There is you need to strike a 536 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:33,200 balance between the two but the in my view we come with 537 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,640 predefined ideas to brainstorming meetings nowadays 538 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:43,040 to know for sure that we will walk out with the result because 539 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:47,800 booking follow up meetings have become a big problem. 540 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:55,240 Then the horizon of booking to two hours slot with 10P people 541 00:38:55,400 --> 00:39:04,280 or with five people has moved so beyond the the practical in 542 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,120 practical terms that we tried to squeeze everything in the time 543 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,880 slot that we have booked. And then when we come with a 544 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:19,040 predefined ideas to brainstorm about solution then we look 545 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,240 ourselves already from full creativity. 546 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,000 What would you recommend companies that are still going 547 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,920 through that transformation? Like not really settled on a 548 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,160 certain remote setting, hybrid setting, when to come to the 549 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:41,240 office, fixed dates, core hours. What would you recommend those 550 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:44,080 type of companies to find their spot? 551 00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:51,080 Together with my friend and colleague from Exportify, March 552 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,680 and Florian, we are actually writing a book about this for 553 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:58,120 companies and what we wrote in that book is that. 554 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,040 Like actually you write a book about this because this was not, 555 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:07,160 we didn't script this question. No, but I I came to think about 556 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:13,120 this because we have a very good metaphor with the DNA of a 557 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,440 company. The answer to this question is 558 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,600 very different, first of all. Second of all, there is no 559 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:24,120 silver bullet. So I cannot say, you know, do 560 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,400 this do to these companies should do 2 days and that's 561 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,280 three days maybe during the different time of the corporate 562 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,840 development. You need five days a week in the 563 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,480 office. I mean certain other. 564 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,440 So it's not like an transformation with the end 565 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,080 destination. It's a journey and you need to 566 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,480 experiment a lot and you need to understand what is the DNA of 567 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,800 your company and what you not profit from, but what you can 568 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,880 leverage in terms of social capital. 569 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,040 Is it purely intellectual capital and organizational 570 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,240 capital, like skills and intelligence of the people? 571 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,120 And then sometimes I reflect on this like a journey time 572 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,720 machine. That brings us back to the 70s 573 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:24,080 and 80s when we really looked, when hiring people, we looked 574 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:31,680 for excellence in terms of skills, code, coding skills and 575 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,400 we employed individuals that produced a lot individually. 576 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:42,200 We, I think we have all agreed that teams are more superior. 577 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,680 And I found very interesting African proverb saying that if 578 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,480 you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go 579 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,000 together. Yeah, I have the very similar 580 00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:57,680 saying. One of my former colleagues from 581 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:04,040 another company that I worked in always ask do you need help or 582 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,560 do you want to be fast? Right. 583 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:14,120 And I think that the teams are a superior work unit for software 584 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:19,200 development. And as such, I think that trying 585 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:26,040 to understand what teams need and maybe giving a lot of a lot 586 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,320 more authority and autonomy to teams to decide what they need 587 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,880 because ACEO of a big company cannot know what this team or 588 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,120 that team needs right now. But I I think that's especially 589 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,400 difficult in large organisations where you have multiple teams 590 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:48,240 depending on each other, right? If you deliver a ERP system, 591 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:52,400 let's say you have like 20 different teams that are highly 592 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,440 interconnected and dependent on each other. 593 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,960 So giving like, let's say one team wants to work remote, 594 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,360 another team wants to work hybrid, another team wants to be 595 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,280 on site and have them synced in some way. 596 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,480 I think it's really, really hard. 597 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,120 Yes, absolutely. It's harder when it's not 598 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,760 orchestrated at all. So what I have been doing in the 599 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:23,400 past few months is or actually a year and a half, he's talking to 600 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,960 teams and trying to moderate their discussions, what they 601 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:32,760 need and realizing how. Because you know, I don't think 602 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,000 that people who want to work remotely this especially senior 603 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,520 that knows what to do. They are mean people who ignore 604 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,840 everybody else. They just don't know what others 605 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,960 need. And we are not really good in 606 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,400 saying, Ben, I need you to come twice a week in the office to 607 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,200 the office to have conversations and opportunities to learn from 608 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,160 you, especially when it's younger people talking to more 609 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,720 senior people. This is not going to happen 610 00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:05,680 without moderation. So this was me coming and trying 611 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,240 to lift all those needs of individual team members for the 612 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:14,440 teamwork and teams learn pretty quickly to reflect. 613 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,560 OK, but if we come on these days, we need to to choose the 614 00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:25,240 same days as the other teams so they are good to orchestrate 615 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:29,440 themselves some of these occasions when office presence 616 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,600 is needed. Yeah, that is really interesting 617 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:38,320 because yes, like a junior developer wouldn't be a. 618 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:42,440 So I'm coming on Thursday, boss, can you also come on Thursday? 619 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,440 So I could ask you for help? They would just go When should I 620 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:52,880 show up? Yes, and as an external person I 621 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:59,680 can ask uncomfortable questions in a different way and hold the 622 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,760 conversations that maybe would not surface inside. 623 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,920 And then half of the job after that goes even without my 624 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,000 involvement. Would you say that it's better 625 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:17,880 to like ask and do this bottom up or would you say as an 626 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,880 external person it's way easier to give them a certain, like 627 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,520 tailor them a certain framework and have them explore from there 628 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,200 to give them a little bit of a head start? 629 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,360 I think it it, it meets in the middle. 630 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:39,280 So we have seen companies where the boss has expected people to, 631 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,720 you know, have accountability and responsibility for managing 632 00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:49,480 these things themselves. But you also need to have a 633 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:55,880 clear so it cannot be ad hoc, so that some teams are fully 634 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,320 remote, some teams teams fully on site and everything in 635 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,560 between. As you also mentioned 5 minutes 636 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,520 ago, a company needs to show what their DNA is, what their 637 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:14,120 culture is and that if the culture is more office centered, 638 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,800 it doesn't require a mandated office presence. 639 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,880 Some companies that are very successful in bringing people 640 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:28,360 back to the office have very flexible policies, but they have 641 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:34,840 a strategy they have they don't announce, oh we want everybody 642 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,360 to come back, but by the way we have cancelled free parking lot 643 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,520 and we have downsized half of the office space. 644 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,280 You need to have a culture and the strategy for office 645 00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,480 facilities and all the infrastructure that goes 646 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:58,800 together and is in communicated to the employees in a very 647 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,640 reasonable way. And of course, we also in our 648 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,400 research support these companies to try to understand what is the 649 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:11,120 minimum or or optimal office presence if it's needed and on 650 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:18,600 what level and then trying to also understand whether the more 651 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,480 office presence gives any benefits. 652 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,600 So this is also part of the research that we have been 653 00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,480 doing. Interesting. 654 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:33,040 Yeah, I'd love to continue this conversation, but we're slowly 655 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,680 running out of time. So if people want to join in, 656 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,240 what be a good, what would be a good way to connect to you and 657 00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:41,600 maybe learn something about your research? 658 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,400 I'm posting some of my research findings and also links to the 659 00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,160 presentations I give on LinkedIn. 660 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:56,280 This is 1 area and of course the new book once it's coming out 661 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:05,200 first second quarter next year. It will be great to have readers 662 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,640 and their feedback. All right, so let's put all the 663 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:11,760 links in the show notes. And now is a good time for you, 664 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,520 dear listeners, to open up the show notes and get some more 665 00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,320 info on that. It was so great talking to you, 666 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:20,160 Daria. Thank you for sharing and thank 667 00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:21,720 you for doing all of that research. 668 00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:23,960 It's really interesting and helping the industry. 669 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,840 And yeah, see everyone on LinkedIn in the comments 670 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:29,560 section. Thank you. 671 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:31,080 Thank you. Have a good one. 672 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:32,360 Bye. Bye. 673 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,960 And that's a wrap for today's episode with Darius Mita. 674 00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:39,840 Her perspective on finding your company's unique DNA really 675 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,320 resonates with what we believe here at Stella Work. 676 00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,920 But there's no one-size-fits-all solution to a great team. 677 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,640 At Stella Work, we love helping tech leaders find the sweet spot 678 00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,080 for their own organization. It's not about adding more rigid 679 00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,720 rules and frameworks and even more meetings. 680 00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,080 It's about looking at your flow to uncover hidden potential and 681 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,720 using agile patterns to help your teams learn faster and 682 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:07,080 collaborate better. My goal is simply to help you 683 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,240 clear the obstacles so you can focus on doing great work. 684 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,880 If you're curious about how we can help to set you up for 685 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:17,040 success, check out the link in the show notes. 686 00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:20,520 I'd love to chat and if you enjoyed this episode, please hit 687 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,280 subscribe and share it with a friend. 688 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:23,840 It really helps the podcast grow. 689 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,360 Thank you for listening and catch you in two weeks. 690 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:26,800 Bye.