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Hi guys, it's Kel. 
What you're about to hear is a 

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super special bonus episode. 
It's a little different from our

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others. 
Mel and Kate are not here today,

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sadly, but I had the chance to 
sit down with Nathan from Silent

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Generation, which is one of my 
favorite podcasts. 

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Seriously, I'm not just saying 
that. 

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Silent Generation is a 
chicago-based cultural analysis 

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podcast hosted by Nathan and 
Joseph. 

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They talk about topics in art, 
fashion, music, urbanism, 

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history. 
Their conversations are really 

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in depth and curious, but it's 
relaxing and fun to listen to. 

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Anyway, I had the chance to meet
Nathan and Joseph in Chicago 

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this past week and record this 
episode with Nathan. 

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And I'm also in a Silent 
Generation episode on Manoush 

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Jazz, which is a part of their 
three-part series on 

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bohemianism. 
Definitely check that out if 

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you're interested in looking for
a new podcast. 

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00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,520
So without further ado, here's 
the episode. 

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Are you long time tonight? 
Do you miss me tonight? 

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Are you sorry we drifted apart? 
Hey guys, welcome to Significant

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lovers. 
Today it is just Kelly. 

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I am not with Mel and Caitlin, 
which is a bit strange, but we 

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have with us Nathan from 
podcast. 

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I love that I listen to 
genuinely, and I just followed 

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you guys on Instagram and then 
we connected. 

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So we have Nathan here today to 
tell a really interesting love 

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story a little different from 
some of our others. 

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So, Nathan, thanks for joining 
us. 

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Yeah, thank you for having me on
what we do at Silent Generation,

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it's a lot of cultural analysis.
And as you might be able to 

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infer from the name, we do like 
more historical episodes pretty 

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often, and this one is going to 
cover a couple that dated in the

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early 20th century, so it's Emma
Goldman and Ben Reitman. 

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Emma Goldman 1869 to 1940 was a 
Russian born anarchist political

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activist and writer who played 
an instrumental role in shaping 

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the American radical left. 
And Ben Reitman, 1879 to 1943 

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was a quote UN quote hobo Doctor
Who served the poor and founded 

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a college for hobos in Chicago. 
And then Ben dated for nine 

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years after initially meeting in
1908 and their relationship was 

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as unique as the rest of their 
lives. 

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They toured the country 
espousing anarchism, free 

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speech, workers rights, free 
love and birth control before 

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their relationship ended in 
1917. 

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Yeah, and you guys on Silent 
Generation, I was going to say 

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significant lovers, you had an 
episode about hobos which I 

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loved and that might some kind 
of random to our listeners, but 

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it's really interesting. 
And I think I mistakenly was one

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of those people that thought 
hobos was synonymous with 

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homeless person, but you guys 
taught me that's not true. 

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It was more mostly men that 
travelled for work and I don't 

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know how would you describe. 
Yeah, so today the term hobo, it

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gets used to just say homeless. 
It's used you openly to refer to

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homeless people. 
Mm, hmm. 

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But hobos were itinerant workers
that would travel during the 

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time when manual labor was more 
needed across the economy, 

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across the country. 
So they would go to one region 

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of the country, you know, during
harvest season to harvest wheat.

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And then they might go to go 
mine at a different time of the 

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year. 
It was really hard to find work,

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but they would have to travel 
really long distances to get it.

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And yeah, they would take trains
to get from place to place 

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illegally. 
Yeah. 

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But yeah, that was one of. 
That was a fun episode. 

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It's over an hour long, but 
yeah, some of that information 

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on hobos will definitely get 
incorporated throughout this 

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episode with Ben Reitman. 
Cool. 

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Yeah. 
I just want to say, guys, I love

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Silent Generation. 
I loved the Is it utopian? 

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Scholastic. 
That was more recent. 

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You guys just cover these. 
Interesting subcultures or sub 

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music genres or fashion trends, 
things that you've probably seen

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before, heard about but maybe 
didn't think too hard on, and 

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you guys just dive into it. 
Listen to the Yuppies episode. 

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Yeah, those are all classics, 
and I've listened to a few of 

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yours. 
I really like the Gypsy Rose 

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Blanchard one. 
Quite a bit. 

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Cool. 
I'll tell him. 

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I'll. 
That was her episode. 

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But yeah, I I read a little bit 
about Emma Goldman and Ben 

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Reitman. 
You showed me an excerpt from a 

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book and I loved it. 
I thought it was so interesting.

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And I was actually freaking out 
writing notes because I printed 

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out in the margins and I hadn't 
heard of them before he 

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introduced me to them. 
But I think you guys listening 

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are really going to enjoy this. 
So if you had to describe this 

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couple in three words, what 
would you say? 

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The three words I would use are 
radical, passionate and 

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unfaithful. 
That last 1 is really one sided.

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On behalf of Ben Well. 
Unfortunately all too common on 

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significant lovers. 
But cool. 

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So who are Emma and Ben? 
Yeah, we'll start out with Emma 

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and talk about her life up until
meeting Ben. 

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So Emma was born into an 
Orthodox Jewish family in the 

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Russian Empire, when the Russian
Empire wasn't communist yet 

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because the Bolshevik Revolution
happened in 1917. 

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And her mother had two prior 
daughters with a man who died of

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tuberculosis. 
And so before Emma was born, she

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was kind of like depressed. 
She never really recovered fully

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from the death of her first 
husband and then her second 

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husband, who is the father of 
Emma Abraham Goldman. 

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He was very strict. 
And Emma's later distaste for 

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authority and love of anarchism 
probably was rooted in her kind 

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of hatred of her dad because her
father was pretty violent with 

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her and his other children. 
Like he would actually used a 

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literal whip on Emma. 
Oh my gosh. 

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And he also had like pretty sex 
issues as well. 

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Like he was once quoted as 
saying, girls do not have much 

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to learn. 
All the Jewish daughter needs to

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know is how to prepare Gillette 
fish, cut noodles fine, and give

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the men plenty of children. 
Wow. 

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So yeah, this definitely shaped 
some of her views later on. 

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Yeah, it sounds like the 
complete opposite of the life 

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she goes on to live. 
So. 

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Yeah. 
And then she had, like other 

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formative experiences that 
shaped her later political 

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beliefs, the Russian Empire. 
It was a pretty oppressive place

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that eventually led to the 
Russian solution. 

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She witnessed A peasant getting 
whipped with an out in public as

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a child and that traumatized her
and her father actually wanted 

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her to marry. 
He tried to set her up into an 

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arranged marriage at the age of 
15, which is customary in the 

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Orthodox Jewish community as she
was in at the time, but she 

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refused and this caused a lot of
contention between her and her 

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father. 
Like he burned one of her French

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grammar books saying that she 
didn't need to learn and she 

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should just try to be a wife. 
So sad and traumatic some of 

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these older episodes we do. 
The back stories are so brutal. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
I mean, both Emma and Bens 

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biographies are incredibly 
complex. 

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They're some of the most complex
ones I've ever encountered. 

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Yeah, so so that what happened 
to young Emma. 

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So she was trying to get away 
from her family. 

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She didn't want to get into an 
arranged marriage. 

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Her older sister Helena, who was
actually sort of a maternal 

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figure for her because her mom 
would, didn't play a very active

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role in her life. 
But her sister had moved to 

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Rochester, NY along with her 
husband, so she then got the 

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opportunity to move with her or 
to move there with her other 

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sister to join their third 
sister. 

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Mm hmm. 
Initially her father disallowed 

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it, but then permitted Emma to 
go after she said she would kill

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herself if you didn't let her by
throwing herself into the Neba 

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River. 
Oh my gosh. 

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OK. 
So that's how she got to move to

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the United States, but she 
didn't initially like it. 

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When she got there, she found 
the working conditions even 

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worse than Russia. 
When she got there, there were 

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there even more sweatshop like 
she was working in a glove 

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factory. 
I hate, I feel like there's so 

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many words where people 
immigrated here thinking it was 

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going to be wonderful, you know,
streets paved with gold. 

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And then life is actually so 
hard, maybe even harder than 

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what they left. 
So it's sad to hear. 

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Yeah, she did end up loving the 
United States, and she viewed it

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as the perfect place to be a 
political radical. 

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The initially she didn't like it
very much, but she met someone 

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who was very important to her 
during the her first few years 

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in the United States. 
That was Jacob Kirchner. 

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So while she was working at the 
club factory, this fellow 

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worker, they bonded over their 
shared love of books and their 

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shared hatred of their boss. 
And then after a couple of 

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months, Jared convinced her to 
marry her, even though she 

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wasn't really feeling it. 
It was really just because he 

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was the only kind of friend she 
had in this new country she just

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immigrated to. 
Interesting. 

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So then they got married. 
Yeah, but it lasted less than a 

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year here because upon their 
wedding night, Emma discovered 

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that he was impotent. 
How do we know this? 

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She wrote about it. 
She left a really long biography

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behind where she didn't leave 
that many details, but she was 

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not happy about that. 
And then afterwards she realized

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that he was kind of depressed 
and that he was kind of trying 

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to trick her into this marriage 
in order to make his life more 

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exciting. 
And she was really not happy 

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with that. 
So she ran away and divorced 

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him, which her family didn't 
like. 

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So they convinced her to remarry
him, but then she just divorced 

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him anyways. 
So she divorced him two times, 

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and this actually set the stage 
for her eventually espousing 

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free love after getting married 
twice and divorcing twice. 

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She was like, I don't believe in
the institution of marriage. 

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And this was sort of one of the 
things that led her to 

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anarchism. 
I mean, it's funny, like when is

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this all happening? 
They got married in 1887. 1887 

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yeah and people think of free 
love as being like such a modern

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00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,920
concept, you know, maybe just 
coming about in the 1960s, but 

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here we are in the 1800s and I 
know we didn't. 

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00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,720
Episode about Mary Shelley, who 
wrote Frankenstein, and her 

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parents who lived during the 
1700s were also into free love, 

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so the concept's been around for
a while. 

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00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,680
Yeah, I think it was common 
within artistic and literary 

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circles amongst bohemians at the
time. 

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For her, it was coming from more
of a personal place. 

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It wasn't actually getting. 
She wasn't as influenced by the 

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00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,120
people around her. 
It was her getting married at 18

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and really regretting it that 
shaped her view on it and. 

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Thinking like, I'm done with 
this. 

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00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,240
Yeah, OK, so she swore off 
marriage as an institution, but.

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00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:50,440
She later did actually get 
married to a Scottish anarchist 

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00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,080
named James Colton. 
I didn't think she ever probably

201
00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,840
did get remarried based off of 
what I was reading about her, 

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00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,920
but she did it for citizenship 
reasons. 

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00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,280
She later on in the story, she 
gets supported to Russia and 

204
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,960
then in order to have like Peace
of Mind and the ability to 

205
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,280
continue to do her political 
work, she wanted to get British 

206
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,240
citizens citizenship because 
Scotland was part of the British

207
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,080
Commonwealth. 
She could go to Canada to give 

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00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,720
her speeches if she got it. 
So that's why she married James 

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00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,800
Colton. 
Did they have a relationship or 

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00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,000
it was just kind of? 
I didn't read too much into it, 

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00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,400
but yeah, it was really, I mean,
she was kind of a modern woman, 

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00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,000
like, more like people today 
than the people that she was 

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00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:30,800
around back then. 
Because I find that people of 

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00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,240
her generation who doubt the 
institution of marriage, the one

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00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,000
reason they are willing to send 
him to it is just to gain 

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00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:38,480
citizenship. 
Yeah. 

217
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,240
Definitely. 
I've heard a lot of people say 

218
00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,440
things like that, like, oh, just
marrying this. 

219
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,360
Or usually it's hypothetical, 
like maybe I'll just marry this 

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00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,640
person for citizenship. 
And yeah, so she was willing to 

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00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,360
get married for that reason. 
She's definitely more of a free 

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00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,000
spirit. 
Yeah, and her. 

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00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,760
Parents would like. 
Around this time she's living 

224
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,920
with her sisters in upstate New 
York. 

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00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,000
Her parents actually come to 
live with them as well because 

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00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,720
there is anti-Semitism pretty 
prevalent in the Russian Empire.

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00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,240
So they are sharing a home with 
her. 

228
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,920
And during that time, Emma sort 
of has her first big radical 

229
00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,920
moment, and it's in response to 
the Haymarket affair. 

230
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:20,560
Have you ever heard of it 
before? 

231
00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,440
I think I have, but yeah. 
Not it happened in Chicago, 

232
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:25,640
where we are right now, 
actually. 

233
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,600
Wow. 
Can you give us a refresher on 

234
00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,160
what happened? 
Yeah, so the Haymarket affair 

235
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,520
was a protest for an 8 hour work
day at a particular plant, but 

236
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,160
it was part of nationwide 
protests. 

237
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,080
I believe over 500,000 workers 
went on strike in a sort of 

238
00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,800
general strike because they said
that if Congress didn't act and 

239
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,560
institute an 8 hour work day, 
that there's going to be 1. 

240
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,360
So this happened on May 4th, the
Haymarket affair, a few days 

241
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:56,600
after those protests started on 
May 1st. 

242
00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,680
It was part of May Day. 
And so prior to the Haymarket 

243
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,360
affair, which was a bombing, 
there were protesters killed the

244
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,040
night before. 
Police were trying to break up a

245
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,520
protest the following day. 
And then someone they never 

246
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,640
really figured out who threw a 
bomb at a group of police 

247
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,240
officers. 
Seven of them were killed. 

248
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,080
I believe four were also like 4 
civilians were also killed in 

249
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,280
the bomb blast. 
But this was a really big deal. 

250
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,920
I mean, if you think about this 
event and if it happened today, 

251
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,320
if seven police officers got 
killed in a bombing, it would be

252
00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,560
in the news for years. 
And that was the case with this 

253
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,840
as well. 
Wow, so she heard about this. 

254
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,480
Yeah. 
So her initial reaction to it 

255
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,640
wasn't as important as the trial
that happened because there were

256
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,360
a group of men who were pinned 
as having committed the bombing.

257
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,200
And it's widely assumed by 
historians that they weren't 

258
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,880
responsible for this because I 
believe only 6, like 6 of the 8 

259
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,000
weren't even at Haymarket Square
when the bombing happened. 

260
00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,400
So only two were there. 
They really didn't have evidence

261
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,200
to prove that they were the ones
that threw the bomb. 

262
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,680
And then several of them were 
executed for this crime that 

263
00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,840
they didn't even commit. 
And this was a really big deal 

264
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:09,680
to Emma. 
She was so upset. 

265
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,040
On the day of the execution, she
was talking to her family. 

266
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,160
They, one of her, like, distant 
relatives, said something like, 

267
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:17,760
why do you care about them if 
they're guilty? 

268
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,360
She threatened to kill him and 
then threw a glass of water at 

269
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,680
another family member's face. 
And this was like a breaking 

270
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,920
point for her where she 
described it as being like, the 

271
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,840
events that had inspired my 
spiritual birth and growth. 

272
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,280
They're really important to her 
and founded. 

273
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,200
They're the foundation for her 
anarchism. 

274
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,440
But it was kind of like, do you 
know what the Dreyfus affair is?

275
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,000
That rings a bell, I'm sure. 
Yeah, it does, but I'm I'm not 

276
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:41,640
sure. 
But if you just think of, like, 

277
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,720
political trials within your 
lifetime, where the news 

278
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,720
coverage around them is in the 
news longer than the event 

279
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,880
itself, yeah, like, endured. 
That's sort of what it was for 

280
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,520
them. 
And it caused people to feel 

281
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,840
real deep indignation towards 
the state because even people 

282
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,680
like the general American 
public, they didn't believe that

283
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,120
these men were guilty during the
time of the trial. 

284
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,360
That was what really like 
radicalized her. 

285
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,200
Wow, so I'm curious, what do you
think of anarchism as a concept?

286
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,760
I've come to find that it's more
of a legitimate political 

287
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,560
ideology than I initially 
thought because I associated 

288
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,800
with youth. 
And I don't think it's ever 

289
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,600
really been tried and tried and 
tested. 

290
00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,440
But there's this really great 
book, The Dawn of Everything by 

291
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:28,960
David Graeber, and it talks 
about how people throughout 

292
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,000
prehistory, they had the 
ability, they had the right to 

293
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,160
sort of actively reinterpret 
their political systems and they

294
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,320
had a active part in that. 
And so anarchism, it has 

295
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,520
existed, it's been successful 
for different groups of people 

296
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:44,520
and even with them as own 
lifetime. 

297
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,000
The Spanish Civil War, which she
later got involved in, it was 

298
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,880
between, I believe, fascist, 
communist and anarchist. 

299
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,080
So it was more of like a real 
thing during her lifetime than 

300
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,960
it is today. 
Definitely. 

301
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,880
It's hard to, I guess I don't 
know a ton about it. 

302
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:02,880
I've done a little bit of 
research. 

303
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,640
I don't it's hard to figure out 
how it would work in our modern 

304
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,480
society. 
I have a friend who was calling 

305
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:14,520
herself a pacifist anarchist a 
couple years ago, but I feel 

306
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,800
like it would only work if 
everybody was a pacifist 

307
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:17,720
anarchist. 
So. 

308
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,000
Yeah, no, she definitely was not
a pacifist because, as we're 

309
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,200
gonna get to, she was a believer
in political violence. 

310
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,840
But before that, so she ended up
leaving her family in upstate 

311
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,760
New York shortly after the men 
in the Haymarket affair were 

312
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,560
executed. 
She moved straight to New York 

313
00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,480
City and she brought with her $5
in a sewing machine and she went

314
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,040
to the offices of Freyhead, 
which was an anarchist magazine.

315
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:50,160
So by the time she moves to NYC,
her anarchist beliefs are fully 

316
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,880
formed because while she was in 
upstate New York, there were 

317
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,840
like political activists. 
She was meeting both socialists 

318
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:00,640
and anarchists, but she's 
described it as being like the 

319
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,440
anarchists made her feel more 
alive. 

320
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,800
That's why she gravitated 
towards that over socialism and 

321
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,000
communism or Marxism. 
I feel like that's such a 

322
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,599
classic thing. 
People move to New York with 

323
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,280
only $5 ready to make a name for
themselves. 

324
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,960
Yeah, we're going to gloss over 
a ton of events in our political

325
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,079
life since we're focusing on our
personal life. 

326
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,400
But one place where those few 
things were really merged was 

327
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:30,400
with Alexander Berkman. 
So this was the most significant

328
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,400
relationship she had prior to 
when she met Ben Reitman. 

329
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,040
They met in 1889 on the day that
she actually moved to New York 

330
00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,800
City at a cafe. 
That day. 

331
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,600
Yeah, I don't think either of 
them were like, like in love 

332
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,200
upon, you know, seeing each 
other. 

333
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,200
And they actually weren't each 
other's biggest loves because 

334
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,280
they're, they had a long 
relationship, but it was more or

335
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,200
less platonic for like 90% of 
it. 

336
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,800
They were like romantically and 
sexually involved at one point, 

337
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,800
but that ended pretty quickly. 
OK, there's more. 

338
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,240
More of a friendship that just 
lasted longer than. 

339
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,560
Yeah, Ben was a much more like 
passionate love in her life, but

340
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,400
Alexander Berkwyn was more of a 
stable, consistent 1. 

341
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,280
So Alexander Berkman, he shared 
her anarchist beliefs. 

342
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,120
They were like pretty much eye 
to eye on most political views. 

343
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:24,720
Around this time. 
They were both really 

344
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,920
invigorated by what happened 
with the Haymarket affair. 

345
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:32,120
Another sort of contemporaneous 
political event was when Henry 

346
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:36,360
Clay Frick shut down a steel 
mill plant that he was managing 

347
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:39,320
on behalf of Andrew Carnegie in 
Homestead, PA. 

348
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,720
There was an existing seeing 
labor union that he refused to 

349
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,240
negotiate a contract with. 
He stopped recognizing them, and

350
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,440
then he closed the plant, laid 
off all the workers, evicted 

351
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,240
their families from company 
housing and told them that they 

352
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,880
would have to play individually 
for their jobs if they ever 

353
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,360
wanted to come back. 
And so even people who are more 

354
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:02,680
conservative in America at the 
time, they were like, this guy 

355
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:03,600
is bad. 
Yeah. 

356
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,480
He was not a beloved person in 
America at the time. 

357
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,120
And so both Emma and Alexander 
Berkman, they identified him as 

358
00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:13,600
someone who would be palatable 
to assassinate. 

359
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:14,200
Oh. 
My God. 

360
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:17,880
OK. 
They thought that his death 

361
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,600
would like inspire the general 
public and bring about the 

362
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,480
revolution that they envisioned 
because everyone just hated him 

363
00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,440
so much. 
Oh my gosh. 

364
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,600
OK, so Emma's OK with murder? 
Yeah, No, she believed in 

365
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,080
political violence, at least 
when she was younger. 

366
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,920
Yeah. 
So they started to envision this

367
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,080
assassination. 
They thought that they would 

368
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:40,880
execute it through a bombing. 
Yeah, that proved to be 

369
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,600
expensive and that they didn't 
have the, like, knowledge of how

370
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,440
to build bombs. 
And they weren't even sure how 

371
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:46,960
they were going to get the money
to do it. 

372
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,720
So this is something 
interesting. 

373
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,760
I encountered. 
Emma, actually, at one point, 

374
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,040
tried to do sex work in order to
raise the funds to assassinate 

375
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:59,080
Henry Clay Flick. 
But the first night she tried 

376
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,480
to, she met a potential client. 
Like, they talked for a bit, and

377
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,560
he was like, this isn't for you.
Don't do this. 

378
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,720
And he gave her $10 and she 
never went through with it. 

379
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:14,040
That was nice of that guy. 
Yeah, so eventually they did get

380
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,600
the funds. 
It was decided that Alexander 

381
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,840
Berkman was going to commit the 
assassination on his own. 

382
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,880
Emma would stay behind in order 
to provide cover and explain 

383
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,520
what happened if need be. 
So he went on his own with a gun

384
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,720
and knife. 
He shot Henry Clay Frick 3 times

385
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,880
and stabbed him in the leg, but 
it wasn't enough to kill him. 

386
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,680
Oh my gosh, I know it. 
Probably. 

387
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,520
They were probably so 
disappointed he didn't die, but 

388
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,640
it was a good thing because 
Alexander Berkman was 

389
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,000
immediately apprehended, and if 
he was successful in the 

390
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,320
assassination, he would have 
definitely been executed. 

391
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,320
So he was saved. 
He'd ended up going to prison 

392
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,880
for I think 18 years, over a 
decade, but he didn't get 

393
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,480
executed while he was there at 
least. 

394
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,960
That's good. 
Oh my gosh, we just did Bonnie 

395
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,880
and Clyde, actually, and it's 
kind of reminding me of that. 

396
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,640
Yeah, no, they were. 
They weren't like aiming to be 

397
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,560
criminals. 
It was for a political, a 

398
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,840
political vision that they had. 
But I mean, it's notable anytime

399
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,520
a woman wants to commit murder 
or does commit murder. 

400
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,400
So this garnered a lot of 
national attention for Emma. 

401
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,400
This was when she became a 
public figure that was a 

402
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,680
household name. 
Wow, wasn't she called like the 

403
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,160
most notorious women? 
I mean, I think that was later. 

404
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,360
The most dangerous woman in 
America. 

405
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,040
And I think that she really 
garnered that nicknamed later in

406
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,240
her life around when she was 
romantically involved with Ben. 

407
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,800
But yeah, I mean, people knew 
that she was bad news or not bad

408
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,040
news. 
But like, if she wanted to go to

409
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,840
a city to speak, authorities 
always tried to prevent it 

410
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,840
because they were like, you're 
going to incite a riot sometimes

411
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,560
she kind of did. 
So they were always nervous 

412
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,160
about that. 
So there's a 16 year gap in 

413
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,800
between the assassination 
attempt and her meeting Ben 

414
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,040
Reitman. 
She spent most of that time 

415
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,920
touring the country and giving 
lectures. 

416
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,600
But these are the formative 
experiences that shaped Emma and

417
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,760
turned her into the public 
figure that, you know, was known

418
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,760
to everyone, including Ben, 
before they met. 

419
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:11,160
And that's eventually how they 
did. 

420
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,720
But now we can sort of start to 
talk about Ben Reitman and 

421
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,800
discuss his biography more. 
Yeah, who is Ben? 

422
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,240
So I was familiar with him 
before doing research for this 

423
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,400
topic because I knew about him 
for the Hobos episode. 

424
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,440
But I also knew him because he's
famous to local Chicagoans. 

425
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,840
I mean, mostly the people who 
know more about history, but 

426
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,240
he's one of the most eccentric 
people do have ever lived and 

427
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,760
especially here. 
Yeah, definitely. 

428
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,720
But I did more research on him 
this week, mostly through a book

429
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,120
that I want to highlight really 
quickly. 

430
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:45,520
It's called No Regrets, Doctor 
Ben Reitman and the Woman Who 

431
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,440
Loved Him by Mecker Reitman 
Carpenter. 

432
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,840
As you can probably guess from 
the name, it's written by 

433
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,400
someone related to him. 
It's the third of his six 

434
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,280
children, one of his daughters. 
And it was just like such an 

435
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,640
amazing book because I didn't 
even realize it existed. 

436
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,320
I went to the Chicago Public 
Library to pull his main 

437
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,560
biography off the off the shelf.
It was the damnedest radical. 

438
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,160
Right next to it, there was this
book, No Regrets. 

439
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,600
And I opened it up. 
And then on the inside there's 

440
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,600
literally a like chart of every 
major relationship he's had. 

441
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,480
So you sent me what, like 40 
pages of it? 

442
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,960
The. 1st 44. 
And I read them on the plane and

443
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,440
it's so cool that they did that.
They like a timeline of his 

444
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,320
relationship. 
I wish that existed for 

445
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,840
everybody that we cover. 
And it goes through all his 

446
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,240
relationships. 
It's so cool. 

447
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,520
Yeah, how often is it that 
there's literally a book on a 

448
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:39,200
couple's relationship it. 
Happens for some of the more 

449
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,800
famous older ones. 
Like I read 1 about Elizabeth 

450
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,760
Taylor and Richard Burton. 
There's one about King Charles 

451
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,920
and Camilla and like, you know, 
really famous people like that, 

452
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,000
but it's not too common, So. 
And I hadn't heard of Ben 

453
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,880
Reitman, I must admit, growing 
up in Massachusetts, it just, I 

454
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,600
don't know, it didn't come up in
our history. 

455
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,600
So I'm surprised as well that 
that book existed. 

456
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,640
Just, I mean, it's by his 
daughter, but about his love 

457
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:04,480
life. 
Yeah. 

458
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,920
It was pretty cool. 
Because he kind of is more 

459
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,920
famous to most people for being 
Emma Goldman's boyfriend. 

460
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,600
Wow. 
Which is something later on. 

461
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,000
Like he didn't actually like 
that. 

462
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,000
He didn't like living in the 
shadow and that was part of the 

463
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,240
reason they broke up. 
But yeah, he did plenty of 

464
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,640
things in his own lifetime, and 
there's plenty of reasons why he

465
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,280
was famous of his own accord. 
But I love that book a lot 

466
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,000
because it was written by his 
daughter. 

467
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,000
And it's one of the few cases 
where, like, something that's 

468
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,800
nonfiction, the person writing 
it, like, actually has the 

469
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,560
authority to make moral 
judgments about her dad's 

470
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,600
actions. 
True. 

471
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,400
And she's actually very 
endearing towards him and very 

472
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,440
kind and gentle to how flat he 
was. 

473
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,480
She doesn't usually, like, 
berate him for what he did, 

474
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,000
which is funny that she could, 
but yeah, it's just like really 

475
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,080
great insight into who he was as
a person. 

476
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,200
But it doesn't feel like she's, 
you know, cutting out the less. 

477
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,360
What am I trying to say she? 
Doesn't cut out anything. 

478
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:02,160
Yeah, she she doesn't try to 
make her dad look better than he

479
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,200
was, basically like she, she 
tells the truth. 

480
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,680
But she does have affection for 
him so. 

481
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,360
I mean, she includes excerpts 
from his, like, sexual letters 

482
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,400
to Emma, which are very graphic.
Yeah. 

483
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,200
She learned things about her dad
that few people would want to. 

484
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,920
Seriously. 
Yeah. 

485
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,840
So who's Ben Reitman? 
Where did he come from? 

486
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,320
So he was born in St. 
Paul, MN and spent most of his 

487
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,680
childhood and adult life in 
Chicago. 

488
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,080
He grew up in a Jewish family, 
but later converted to 

489
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,600
Protestantism. 
Most people find it surprising 

490
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,520
that he was so religious, given 
that he was pretty free with his

491
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,160
sexuality. 
But for him, he described his 

492
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,080
religiosity as being because he 
loved to serve others. 

493
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,040
Yeah, in the book, I remember he
said he kind of said something 

494
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,040
like people don't understand my 
religious ways, but yeah, I get 

495
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,880
it. 
Yeah, he wrote a biography that 

496
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,480
was never completed, but in it 
he devotes a lot of it to 

497
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,240
describing his religious beliefs
because he thinks that's the 

498
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,000
side of him that people were the
most confused by. 

499
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,760
So Ben's family, his dad shocked
me, Right, man? 

500
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,040
He later abandoned his family 
when Benjamin was only one and 

501
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,960
his brother Lewis was three. 
He provided no further support 

502
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,480
to his family and later divorced
Ida, and Ben described this as 

503
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,040
later attributing to his own 
family responsibilities. 

504
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
And Mecca said in her book that 
Ben often referred to his 

505
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,200
father's attitude towards family
responsibilities as a precedent 

506
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,040
for his own. 
And I think it is kind of a, you

507
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480
know, her people hurt other 
people kind of thing, right, 

508
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,720
Right. 
And then Ben's mother, Ida 

509
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,160
played a really significant role
in his life. 

510
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,960
Their relationship was a bit 
strange and unhealthy. 

511
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,760
Like Ben once wrote in a letter 
that every man ought to be 

512
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,280
faithful to one woman. 
I've chosen my mother. 

513
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,400
Yeah, No. 
It sounds endearing, but it was 

514
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,200
kind of odd. 
Like she enabled Ben's behavior 

515
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,040
by never really disciplining him
or holding him accountable for 

516
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:57,720
bad behavior. 
It then wronged a woman. 

517
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,440
I'd often would soothe Ben and 
tell him that it was the woman's

518
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:00,800
fault. 
Oh my. 

519
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,640
Gosh, that's just what a man 
needs. 

520
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,600
Yeah, Mecca described it as like
Ida having an enduring belief 

521
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,240
that nothing Ben could do is 
wrong. 

522
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,320
And so it's kind of interesting 
that Ben eventually stumbled 

523
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:19,160
upon anarchism and had this 
very, like, vibrant, carefree 

524
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:20,760
life in a similar manner to 
Emma. 

525
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,600
But Emma was coming from a 
authoritarian household, a very 

526
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,760
strict 1, and then Ben was 
coming from one with a very 

527
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,040
permissive mother who had the 
exact opposite parenting style. 

528
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,080
That is interesting. 
I feel like we could really 

529
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,320
analyze that for a while. 
Like maybe it's just male female

530
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,160
dynamics to father mother, I 
don't know. 

531
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,000
No, it's wild that you can, 
like, again, have, like, 

532
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,200
complete opposite childhoods, 
end up in the same place. 

533
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,240
And so after Ida got abandoned 
by Ben's father, she was in a 

534
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,880
really tough spot. 
She at one point almost gave up 

535
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,080
her two sons to a Jewish 
orphanage, but a charity 

536
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,200
intervened and gave her a train 
ticket to Chicago, and she moved

537
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,400
there and upon getting there, 
lived in the red light district.

538
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,520
So Ben was around, you know, 
unsavory characters as a kid. 

539
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,040
He would go fetch beers for 
local criminals is like a way to

540
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,640
earn money for his mom. 
Wow. 

541
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,920
Because her mom kind of relied 
on both Ben and his brother 

542
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,560
financially and then also 
emotionally in this way. 

543
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,400
That was kind of the inverse of 
what, like, a parent child 

544
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,240
relationship should be. 
Yeah. 

545
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,160
I don't think it was very good 
for his development. 

546
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,920
He's like 6 years old doing 
this. 

547
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,720
Younger. 
Wow. 

548
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,720
Yeah, that it's not healthy. 
Yeah, I mean, it's tough. 

549
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,280
She's a single mom, but you 
should be the parent. 

550
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,720
Yeah, the only way that she was 
sort of serving that parental 

551
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,720
role was through cooking. 
He oftentimes described how he 

552
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,480
loved her, like good Jewish 
cooking. 

553
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,240
But yeah, other than that, I 
don't think she did much as a 

554
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,240
parent. 
So while he was living in that, 

555
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,240
growing up in the red light 
district, he actually, in 

556
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,760
addition to doing like small 
tasks to get money for 

557
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,880
criminals, he did it for 
prostitutes as well. 

558
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,160
They started a lifelong 
relationship with them. 

559
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,240
He later frequented prostitutes 
as a young man and as an adult 

560
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,120
man. 
And then when he became a 

561
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,120
doctor, he would treat them for 
venereal disease. 

562
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,280
And he was actually pretty good 
at it because at this time, the 

563
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,200
treatment for syphilis, you'd 
inject like toxic metal 

564
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,080
compounds into your body, which 
could kill you. 

565
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,880
Oh my gosh. 
But he like, apparently for like

566
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,320
long stretches would go without 
killing any of his patients 

567
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,480
because he was so experienced 
with treating people for 

568
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,640
venereal disease. 
Wow. 

569
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,720
So Ben spent a lot of his 
childhood growing up in the red 

570
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,800
light district. 
He the railroad tracks were kind

571
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,480
of his playground. 
He would go there to have fun 

572
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,720
with other kids. 
He would also collect coal that 

573
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,240
would fall off of railroad cars 
and bring it home. 

574
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,400
Chicago, it's super cold in the 
winter. 

575
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,520
I mean, it's normal here for it 
to be 0° a couple of days of the

576
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,520
year. 
So he needed to bring home coal,

577
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,520
otherwise their home wouldn't 
have heat at night. 

578
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,640
Yeah, there's one account where 
like the first time he ever got 

579
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,800
in trouble with the railroad 
police, the police that would 

580
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,080
get hobos off of cars was 
actually as a young kid, 'cause 

581
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,920
he went on top of 1 to throw 
coal off the top because there 

582
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,680
wasn't enough on the side of the
tracks to bring home that night.

583
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,080
And he actually got arrested and
his mom had to come get him. 

584
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,560
Wow, and how old was he when 
this happened? 

585
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,960
Get to guess. 
This was before he started 

586
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,120
hoboing so it must have been 
like before. 

587
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,160
He was probably 7. 
Oh my gosh. 

588
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,040
Yeah. 
Different time, different time. 

589
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,400
Yeah no, we had a ton of freedom
growing up. 

590
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,320
So what exactly is a hobo? 
Cuz he started to ride freight 

591
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,520
cars pretty young. 
Before he could even get up by 

592
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,960
himself, he'd have other boys 
drag him up because he wasn't 

593
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,360
even tall enough to get on the 
trains himself. 

594
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,200
So hobos as you, we talked about
their attendant workers. 

595
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,600
There's this really great quote 
from Ben where he said that a 

596
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,920
hobo works and wanders. 
A tramp dreams and wanders. 

597
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,120
Nabum drinks and wanders. 
A more succinct way to say this 

598
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,640
is a hobo travels and work 
works. 

599
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,440
A tramp travels but does not 
work. 

600
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,240
And Nabum never neither travels 
or works. 

601
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,080
And Ben was the quote UN quote 
hobo king of Chicago. 

602
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,040
But he was actually a bit more 
of a tramp than I think 

603
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,040
biographies sort of explicitly 
say because he was really good 

604
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,120
at panhandling. 
He would beg for money as a 

605
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,160
young kid when he would go on 
trains and end up in the middle 

606
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,360
of his another town. 
And he'd say like, oh, I'm from 

607
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,880
Chicago, I don't know how to get
back. 

608
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,520
And then people would give him 
money. 

609
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,560
So he didn't work quite as much 
as some of the other hobos did, 

610
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,560
I would say. 
OK, kind of more of a triumph. 

611
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,320
Although he did become a doctor 
at a young age, so I should take

612
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,400
that back. 
But he dropped out of school of 

613
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,000
10 and then his first true like 
hobo journey happened at the age

614
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,320
of 12. 
He went to Cleveland and upon 

615
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,080
returning home, his enabling 
permissive mother didn't like 

616
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,200
get mad at him at all. 
According to him, Ben's mother 

617
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,760
offered him a delicious dinner 
without a scolding. 

618
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,360
The pattern of unconditional 
love and a good Jewish cooking 

619
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,640
from Ida would persist 
throughout his life. 12 years 

620
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,000
old it I'm just picturing like 
black and white movies or little

621
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,200
rascals or something like kids 
just going off being crazy. 

622
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,440
It's it's so different from 
today, you would never see. 

623
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,960
Yeah, no hope. 
Someone letting a 12 year old. 

624
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,400
Just Hobush on average did hover
on the age of like 18 into their

625
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,720
20s. 
There were like older more 

626
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,880
experienced ones. 
But hoboing was a really good 

627
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,920
option for young boys to escape 
broken homes at the time as a 

628
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,920
way to get out. 
And there were more male than 

629
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,200
female hobos because if you're a
woman, it was easier to get 

630
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,800
factory work because you fetched
lower wages and you could get a 

631
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:49,840
job. 
It was harder for men, young 

632
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,520
men, to find work at the time. 
That blew my mind in your 

633
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,840
episode. 
I think when we think of women 

634
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,040
starting to work in the 
factories, I thought of it as 

635
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,520
just like, oh, empowering women 
are getting in the workforce and

636
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,240
to realize like actually just 
because they could pay you less,

637
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,440
Pretty depressing. 
And children, too. 

638
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,560
Yeah, factory owners preferred 
hiring children because they 

639
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,640
could pay them the least. 
And then that's why there were 

640
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,600
all these men that had nowhere 
to go and no jobs. 

641
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,560
It's it's crazy. 
I know it is wild. 

642
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,680
So after the age of 12, after 
completing his first hoboing 

643
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,440
journey, Piquima Hobo shortly 
after that, but he would 

644
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,640
frequently come back to Chicago 
to spend some time at home, see 

645
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,200
his mom, because Chicago is, was
and is the freight capital of 

646
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,840
the nation. 
Most rail lines connect here. 

647
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,400
It's a really good midpoint. 
So we could go anywhere and also

648
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,360
come back. 
And also during this time, 

649
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,360
before the age of 18, he spent 
time working as a sailor on a 

650
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,240
ship. 
And so he actually went to other

651
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,080
countries in Europe and Asia and
he was very well travelled by 

652
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,240
the time he was 18. 
Oh, in our show, we always play 

653
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,280
a little drinking game. 
We've come up with like a list 

654
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,400
of reoccurring things that 
happen when the people that we 

655
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,600
cover and one of them is moves 
around a lot. 

656
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,000
So take a drink of water. 
Yeah, I know. 

657
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,239
I mean, I don't know if they're 
like there's very few places. 

658
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,120
I feel like you never went. 
It's a pretty expensive place. 

659
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,840
Wow, usually the people we cover
it's because their parents were 

660
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,320
moving. 
I think this is the first time 

661
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:22,639
I've had a hobo kid just moving 
around on their own accord, but 

662
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:25,159
it's a common theme on the show 
for some reason. 

663
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,320
Notable people seem to move 
around a lot in their childhood 

664
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,960
anyway. 
So Ben, he later starts medical 

665
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,760
school in 1899. 
He started working as a janitor 

666
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,600
and then as a laboratory 
assistant. 

667
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,400
One of the physicians there 
recognized he had talent and 

668
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,000
offered to pay for his first 
year. 

669
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,920
So that's how we got into 
medical school. 

670
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,480
This was during a time where, 
like, you didn't need to be as 

671
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,239
credentialed. 
Like, again, he dropped out of 

672
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,199
school at 10. 
He also wasn't even really all 

673
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:54,800
that literate. 
Everything he published, he 

674
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,000
needed help from you would 
request help from the women that

675
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,400
he dated. 
He had help writing the books 

676
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,200
that he wrote. 
But yeah, he started medical 

677
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,600
school and he spent most of his 
career again, serving social 

678
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,160
outcasts. 
So prostitutes, hobos, tramps, 

679
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,240
bums and anyone in need. 
And unlike a lot of other 

680
00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:16,000
doctors, he wasn't that wealthy 
because he more or less 

681
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,280
exclusively saw clients that 
didn't have a lot of money and 

682
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,680
he oftentimes would help him out
of the goodness of his heart. 

683
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,520
That is so caring. 
Yeah, that's amazing. 

684
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,800
Now he had a lot of love for his
fellow man. 

685
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,360
That's one of the good things 
you can say about him. 

686
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,280
What about his love life? 
OK, that's where you can say 

687
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,120
things that are not good. 
So during his first year of 

688
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,880
medical school, he had his first
attempted marriage. 

689
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,040
And this is one of the craziest 
stories about him. 

690
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,040
So he met a woman in Sunday 
school, which, according to 

691
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,760
Mackerite man Carpenter, was one
of his most productive hunting 

692
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,520
grounds. 
He would go meet religious women

693
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,640
who didn't assume that he was 
trying to, like, sleep around 

694
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,280
and then successfully slipped 
around with them. 

695
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,760
But yeah, he met this woman 
there. 

696
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,800
And then he liked her enough. 
They decided to get married. 

697
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,760
And then at the ceremony, he 
sees the woman's sister. 

698
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,080
He thinks she's really hot. 
And then he's like, he has this 

699
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,400
change of mind and heart, and 
it's like, I shouldn't get 

700
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,800
married right now. 
And then in order to get out of 

701
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,080
it, he bites the pasture on the 
neck. 

702
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:19,200
And that's how he gets out of 
getting married. 

703
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,880
I the part in the book when I 
read that I wrote like Oh my God

704
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:29,800
lol yeah that is insane 
behavior. 

705
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,040
I mean, think about, do you know
any men in your life who would 

706
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,840
be that crazy that they would 
bite someone on the neck in 

707
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,320
order to get out of a wedding? 
Like this is like a exceptional 

708
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,560
person. 
Yes, I can kind of picture the 

709
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,800
type of man who might do that, 
but I feel like they're in 

710
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,880
prison and I don't know then. 
Yeah, no, I can't. 

711
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,320
Not that far. 
I can think of someone just 

712
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,600
running out of the room or 
something, but that's another 

713
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,520
level. 
So clearly he probably shouldn't

714
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,280
get married. 
But unfortunately, he did get 

715
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,000
married shortly after that to 
May Schwartz Reitman. 

716
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,920
This was his first wife, and 
this he shouldn't have got 

717
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,520
married to her either. 
He apparently didn't really have

718
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,680
strong feelings towards her, but
he decided to do it for some 

719
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,920
reason. 
And then afterwards, on a 

720
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,960
honeymoon in Europe, he went 
with May, decided he wanted to 

721
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,600
get out of it. 
He left her in Prague with only 

722
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,520
$200 and then hoboed his way 
back to America. 

723
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,240
Unbeknownst to him, she was 
pregnant with his first child. 

724
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,320
This was Helen Reitman. 
She later changed her name to 

725
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,880
Jan Gay. 
But yeah, Maya Schwartz Reitman 

726
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,600
was so distressed by being 
abandoned by her recent husband 

727
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,160
and then, like, giving birth to 
a daughter without him that she 

728
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,240
went kind of insane and had to 
be committed to a mental 

729
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:44,920
institution. 
She was that distraught. 

730
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,960
Oh my gosh. 
He literally sent a woman into 

731
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,000
the mental institution. 
OK, not directly, but then. 

732
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,760
Yeah, no, this was one of the 
moments where Mecca Rightman's 

733
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,120
Carpenter like, moral authority 
really shined through because 

734
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,440
she said that of all the women's
stories in my father's life, the

735
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,000
one of me and her baby always 
struck me as the saddest. 

736
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,920
It's just like on it. 
It was incredibly cruel and 

737
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,760
though well, like Ben's life was
characterized by the title of 

738
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,360
the book no regrets, he did 
actually often call his 

739
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,600
desertion of Mae and her baby 
brutal later on as an adult once

740
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,680
he had other children realized 
what he did more. 

741
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,040
But something outside of that 
book that encountered in his 

742
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,560
main biography is that he 
actually, of the many topics he 

743
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,440
would give speeches on, he would
speak to audiences where he'd 

744
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,480
say, like, if you are a man, you
need to financially support your

745
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,200
child, regardless of the 
relationship with a mother. 

746
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,040
And I actually appreciated that 
because I think it's better to 

747
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:49,080
sort of enforce, you know, those
decent, like, having decent 

748
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,640
morals rather than just saying, 
oh, let's like, normalize this 

749
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,960
run, stigmatize that. 
Like, he wanted to preserve 

750
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,800
these like, moral codes that he 
wasn't following. 

751
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,680
And I actually appreciated that 
about him. 

752
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,080
Yeah, that is honorable. 
Yeah. 

753
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,400
Did he actually support her 
financially, his first wife? 

754
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,120
No. 
No, he only learned that she was

755
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,520
targeting and had a daughter 
later. 

756
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,400
He didn't play a role in their 
lives ever. 

757
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,960
He later did connect with Helen 
Reitman or Jan Gay, his 

758
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:21,360
daughter, as an adult. 
So when he opened up the Hobo 

759
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:25,080
College, she once hitchhiked her
way to Chicago, attended one of 

760
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,600
his lectures, and then, like, 
went up to him afterwards. 

761
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,760
And then they got to meet and 
they formed a connection in 

762
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,160
adulthood. 
She later lived with him for a 

763
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:34,320
period of time. 
Oh, wow. 

764
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,560
But yeah, she's really 
fascinating too 'cause I know 

765
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,960
the rough biographies of three 
of Ben's six children. 

766
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,680
OK, She's probably the coolest 
'cause she was like, a lesbian. 

767
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,160
I wrote a book on nudism. 
Whoa. 

768
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,400
She was also like a pioneering 
researcher on same sex 

769
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,720
relations. 
Wow. 

770
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:55,520
Like her Wikipedia page is 
roughly as wrong as long as her 

771
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,600
dad's like she didn't just as 
much and then also like on her 

772
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,040
lake. 
Trek to reach Chicago. 

773
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,960
She did it all in like a 
soldiers uniform and so she 

774
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,320
showed up meeting Ben like 
dressed like a soldier, like she

775
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,520
just seemed really cool. 
Yeah, wow, there were such cool 

776
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,480
people back then. 
I hate how everyone thinks of 

777
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:15,200
the past. 
Everyone was so stuffy and 

778
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,800
proper and you know, the same. 
Yeah, it's not true. 

779
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,320
And it's nice being able to, 
like, learn about people from so

780
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,080
long ago because you can look at
the entire biographies of his 

781
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,080
kids because most of them have 
been dead for a long time. 

782
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,880
And you can see that they were 
just as like vivacious as he 

783
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,120
was. 
What a family. 

784
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,440
So that hobo college, how did 
that happen? 

785
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,080
This was one of Ben's biggest 
achievements. 

786
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,720
He opened a hobo College in 
1907. 

787
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,600
It existed for I think one or 
two decades, but it had to move 

788
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,800
every couple of years. 
Something I had my out for this 

789
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,760
week with research was like, 
where was the hobo college? 

790
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,920
Because I didn't know I live in 
Chicago. 

791
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,800
Like where was it? 
It actually had to move every 

792
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,280
like year or two because like, 
it was constantly getting shut 

793
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,160
down by police. 
The neighbors didn't like it. 

794
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,960
But yeah, he was inspired by 
someone else in their project 

795
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,440
with a similar hobo College in 
another city, I believe. 

796
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,120
But it was a place for Hobo's to
convene and they could attend 

797
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,160
lectures on high minded topics 
like philosophy, literature and 

798
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,400
religion. 
But there are also lectures 

799
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,080
tailored to the practical needs 
of the hobo lifestyle, like 

800
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,880
lectures and vagrancy laws, the 
legal status of hobos in other 

801
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:22,920
States, and venereal disease. 
So nice. 

802
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,200
Was it free? 
No, they would be asked to. 

803
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,440
They'd be asked to give 
contributions at the end. 

804
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,680
Hobos were very poor. 
They didn't have a lot of money,

805
00:41:31,240 --> 00:41:33,680
but Ben was very good at 
stifling them into being like, 

806
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,320
no, no, no, you came like you 
need to give like a penny. 

807
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,600
Well, yeah, I mean, it's he has 
to run it somehow, so yeah, 

808
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,040
that's nice though. 
Yeah, this hobo college, it 

809
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,920
provided the first opportunity 
for Ben and Emma to meet. 

810
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,960
Yeah. 
Ben met Emma. 

811
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:58,920
Oh my gosh, how did it happen? 
So it happened in 1908, and Ben 

812
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,480
reached out to Emma because she 
was in Chicago. 

813
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,440
She was hoping to give a 
political speech of one sort or 

814
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,360
another. 
But the day or two before there 

815
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,840
was like, political turmoil in 
the city, all the like, public 

816
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,040
halls were shut down. 
There was no place for her to do

817
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,080
it. 
So Ben tried to get Emma to do 

818
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,960
it at his hobo college. 
That didn't end up happening, 

819
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,040
but he delivered the bad news in
person and that was the first 

820
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,200
time meeting. 
And I think we should read off 

821
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,280
their first impressions. 
I can do Ben's and then do you 

822
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:27,000
want to do Emma's? 
Yeah. 

823
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,480
Sure. 
So Ben's first impression of 

824
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,920
Emma was she had a powerful 
face, beautiful strong clear 

825
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,720
blue eyes, a nose that was not 
Jewish, and a strong, firm jaw. 

826
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,560
She was somewhat nearsighted and
wore heavy glasses. 

827
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Her hair was blonde and silken, 
and she wore it in a simple knot

828
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,200
on the back of her head. 
And then Emma's first 

829
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,400
impression. 
My visitor was a tall man with 

830
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,680
finely shaped head, covered by a
massive black curly hair, which 

831
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,600
had evidently not been washed 
for some time. 

832
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,000
His eyes were brown, large and 
dreamy. 

833
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,520
His lips, disclosing beautiful 
teeth when he smiled, were full 

834
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,000
and passionate. 
He looked a handsome brute. 

835
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,080
I could not take my eyes off his
hands. 

836
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,000
A strange charm seemed to 
emanate from them, caressing and

837
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,240
stirring. 
I love how you put both their 

838
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,240
impressions back-to-back. 
Yeah, I might steal that. 

839
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,600
Yeah. 
I mean, I can see the attraction

840
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,520
in both of theirs, but I think 
it was a bit stronger on Emma's 

841
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,280
side, the way she described him.
Yes, yeah, She seems captivated 

842
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,240
by him, like right away. 
Yeah, he he seems to be like, 

843
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,680
oh, she was pretty, looked 
smart, but I don't think he was 

844
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,960
like, Oh my God, who is this? 
Yeah, I do think they're 

845
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,880
ultimately the love of each 
other's lives. 

846
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,000
Ben had more loves. 
And yeah, Ben was a more central

847
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:46,840
figure in Emma's life than the 
reverse. 

848
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,280
Yeah, but OK, so they met Ben, 
delivered the bad news about the

849
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,280
hall. 
They then had intercourse pretty

850
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,840
quickly after that, I think. 
But their relationship had a 

851
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,520
bump in the road pretty early on
because Emma saw him talking to 

852
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,760
cops in a friendly way. 
Oh yeah. 

853
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,800
Yeah, and so she didn't like 
that at all, because to her, as 

854
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,400
an anarchist, the police were 
like enemy #1 like, what was he 

855
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,200
doing? 
So she then didn't want to talk 

856
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,360
to Ben after she left Chicago, 
but he kept sending her letters.

857
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,240
She didn't want to hear it. 
It was explanations for why I 

858
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,960
talked to police. 
But then she had a dream about 

859
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,200
him, where fire was emanating 
from his hands. 

860
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:32,520
What does that mean? 
Well, it comes back to the 

861
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,880
description where I guess she 
found his hands very lively and 

862
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,960
captivating. 
Yes, yeah. 

863
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,320
So then she thought, OK, I need 
to see this guy again. 

864
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,680
Yeah. 
So that's how they ended up 

865
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,800
getting back together. 
And then the relationship of 10 

866
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,760
years started after that. 
She took him back and then they 

867
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,480
started their political 
excapades together. 

868
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,400
So Emma had already been touring
the country and giving public 

869
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,600
speeches. 
That was a bit new for Ben. 

870
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,800
He did do that at his hobo 
college. 

871
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,840
He did do it place to place, but
she would have cracked crowds of

872
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,440
thousands. 
She was like a household name 

873
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,360
everywhere you went. 
So Ben really enjoyed the 

874
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,400
excitement and controversy that 
he and Emma generated. 

875
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,120
Ben once said that before Emma 
Goldman, most of my crimes were 

876
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,560
vagrancy, riding on freight 
trains without permission and 

877
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,280
panhandling. 
With Emma Goldman, I was often 

878
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,040
arrested, charged with anarchy, 
denouncing the government as a 

879
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,320
necessary, speaking without a 
permit, and conspiracy to 

880
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,560
destroy the government. 
It was really exciting for him. 

881
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,280
Yeah, I bet. 
Well, is he very political 

882
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,760
before or more just trying to 
help people and like, I guess 

883
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,040
help people get through life in 
the system or outside of it? 

884
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,200
But was he? 
Did he have like political 

885
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,960
ambitions before meeting Emma? 
They were less clearly defined. 

886
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,880
They were not coming from like 
reading manifestos like they 

887
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,640
were for Emma. 
Emma's anarchist friends 

888
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,000
actually disliked him because 
they could tell he wasn't really

889
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,640
committed to the 'cause they 
oftentimes question like why 

890
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,000
they were together. 
But they eventually did find a 

891
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,440
shared issue with birth control,
which we'll get to towards the 

892
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,720
end of the relationship. 
And initially they weren't 

893
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:18,320
talking about that publicly 
because the Comstocked Act was 

894
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,560
really strictly enforced and 
they actually did get there's 

895
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,560
most severe consequences we're 
talking about sex in public. 

896
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:27,520
But this brings us to a good 
moment where we can kind of tie 

897
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:31,600
this episode into the episode we
just recorded before this on 

898
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,080
Manoush Jazz and what we'll be 
doing on Silent Generation over 

899
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,960
the coming weeks. 
Because we're doing a three-part

900
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,400
series on bohemianism and we're 
exploring what the term means 

901
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,040
today and what it meant 
historically. 

902
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,840
And back in the day, it used to 
have this really strong 

903
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:48,880
political connotation. 
It was associated with 

904
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,560
radicalism. 
And so both Emma and Ben are 

905
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,680
really great examples of 
bohemians. 

906
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,560
I'm sure newspapers back in the 
day called them that because 

907
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,720
they kind of were. 
Yeah, it is. 

908
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:02,080
So I know you're going to get 
more into it in your episode, 

909
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,880
but it is so fascinating how 
much the connotation has 

910
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,320
changed. 
You really don't associate 

911
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,800
bohemians. 
I mean, I was going to say with 

912
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,280
political advocacy and getting 
arrested, and I mean, maybe 

913
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,080
there's a little overlap, but 
it's more seen now as like a 

914
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,360
style or, yeah, being artistic. 
Yeah, yeah. 

915
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,360
It's just that someone is like, 
mildly eccentric. 

916
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,760
It doesn't have to do with them,
you know, standing on a soapbox 

917
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,080
and telling thousands of people 
to destroy the government. 

918
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,280
Like, that's very different than
what it was back then. 

919
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,800
But I think the kind of like the
term bohemian kind of fits. 

920
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,520
I meant Ben in different ways. 
I think Emma came from a very 

921
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,840
intellectual circle of writers. 
And that's one way that she was 

922
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,040
more bohemian than for Ben. 
I think it was his, like, 

923
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,560
transitory lifestyle. 
Although Emma wasn't really 

924
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,000
homebound either. 
But, I mean, he would just, 

925
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,160
like, leave his medical office 
in the middle of the week, 

926
00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:59,400
decide, like, I'm not seeing 
patients for now. 

927
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,440
I need to get, you know, this 
out of my system. 

928
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,520
He would just hop on a train 
anywhere like that was far more 

929
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,440
bohemian than what she was 
doing, which was like 

930
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,880
intentionally touring the 
country, right? 

931
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,000
Trying to espouse her anarchist 
beliefs. 

932
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,240
Yeah, it's just living, living 
on his own time, living his own 

933
00:48:15,240 --> 00:48:17,840
lifestyle. 
Yeah, and then I want to talk 

934
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:19,800
about the mommy nickname. 
OK. 

935
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,880
So Ben was 10 years younger than
Emma. 

936
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:27,200
As discussed, he had a kind of 
strange relationship with his 

937
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,960
mom. 
I didn't encounter anything to 

938
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,320
just to suggest that he was like
sexually attracted to his mom, 

939
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,280
but their relationship was weird
and he liked to call Emma mommy 

940
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,480
for some reason but pretty much 
everyone is kind of grossed out 

941
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,760
by. 
I feel like it's not that 

942
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,160
uncommon though, really. 
Yeah. 

943
00:48:47,240 --> 00:48:49,720
Oh, I guess like Mamacita. 
Is. 

944
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,880
Kind of equivalent. 
It is still weird. 

945
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,320
Yeah. 
I mean, there's we've talked 

946
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,560
about this wasn't the Bonnie and
Clyde one actually do that? 

947
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,200
Bonnie called Clyde Daddy. 
OK. 

948
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,360
Yeah. 
I mean, I feel like it's maybe 

949
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,080
more palatable and socially 
acceptable to say the reverse, 

950
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,160
which is daddy, because it's 
more permittable for like age 

951
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,440
gap relationships to be with an 
older man, right? 

952
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,400
Yeah. 
But it's basically the same. 

953
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,000
I guess so. 
I've never encountered it 

954
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,800
though, but yeah. 
So she would call him dearest 

955
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,800
Hobo or my hobo. 
He would call her Mommy. 

956
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,720
Hobo, I thought that was cute. 
It is cute. 

957
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,800
Yeah, I like that one. 
And then they also had, like, a 

958
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,680
lot of nicknames for, like, each
other's private parts and sexual

959
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,800
innuendos because a lot of the 
time they weren't in the same 

960
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,160
place. 
She was touring someplace. 

961
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:43,320
Ben was either in Chicago, 
working as a doctor or hoboing 

962
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,280
around. 
They weren't together all the 

963
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,840
time. 
And so correspondence over 

964
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,960
letters was really important to 
the relationship and they would 

965
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,960
express their like sexual 
attraction through their letters

966
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,080
during the time of the Comstock 
to act. 

967
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,960
So they had these nicknames. 
I don't actually want to say 

968
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,840
them. 
They're not that bad, but like 

969
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:02,440
it feels kind of, I don't want 
to. 

970
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,560
And then in regards to their 
sexuality. 

971
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,040
So both of them on paper 
believed in free love. 

972
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,880
As explained with Emma, she had 
had that failed marriage where 

973
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,280
like she got married to a guy 
who was impotent, didn't know 

974
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,280
it. 
She believed that like people 

975
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,560
should be freely free to leave 
relationships when they're when 

976
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,200
they're ready. 
They shouldn't be stuck in a 

977
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:28,960
marriage their entire life if 
they didn't want to be. 

978
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,440
She thought that that was the 
anarchist's way to do things. 

979
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,920
But upon meeting Ben, her 
beliefs were really put to the 

980
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:41,040
test because he was not 
monogamous in the slightest. 

981
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,880
I encountered nothing. 
And it the course of his life 

982
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:49,080
that indicated he even tried. 
Yeah, but she didn't know this 

983
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,600
initially. 
So during the first tour, he was

984
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,320
sleeping with like women he 
would meet that came to see Ms. 

985
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,040
Peak and then have like casual 
sexual encounters with them. 

986
00:50:59,240 --> 00:51:02,200
And then Emma didn't know until 
Ben wrote a letter where he laid

987
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,760
it all out. 
And then this really distressed 

988
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,800
her. 
She described it as like making 

989
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,080
her feel numb. 
And this is something she never 

990
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,640
really was able to reconcile 
because she was just really hurt

991
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,360
by Ben's infidelity and that she
was never enough for him. 

992
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,880
It's tough like she wanted it 
seems like she wanted to believe

993
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:26,320
in nominog me free love, but 
then when she and it seems like 

994
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,960
her previous marriage is in 
relationship, she maybe wasn't 

995
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,920
super in love with the guys. 
So maybe it was easy to say 

996
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,080
that. 
But now that she actually is so 

997
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,960
in love with Ben, like you said,
it's being put to the test. 

998
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:43,120
Realizing this actually hurts so
much, and it's easier said than 

999
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,760
done to say that Oh yeah, 
everyone can just do whatever 

1000
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,360
they want, you know? 
Yeah, there was a distinction in

1001
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,440
her head that she was making 
between sacred and profane love.

1002
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,880
I described, I saw in the book, 
like another anarchist said, 

1003
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,000
that Ben didn't do that, and 
anarchist did. 

1004
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,800
Like they did believe in free 
love, but it wasn't like 

1005
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,760
sleeping with any woman. 
They could, which is pretty much

1006
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,160
what Ben was doing. 
Right, Yeah. 

1007
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,120
I mean, I guess for anarchy to 
work, there does have to be some

1008
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:15,920
like self regulation of your 
behaviour so that you're not 

1009
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,320
causing harm to people that 
would cause strife and violence 

1010
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:21,840
and stuff. 
So that kind of makes sense that

1011
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,400
they would say that that like, 
OK, yes, you can have free love,

1012
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,680
but it should be meaningful. 
Like there should be some order 

1013
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,920
even though they don't want 
obviously a government, there 

1014
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,280
needs to be order among the 
people, so. 

1015
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:37,000
Yeah. 
The only thing I can say to 

1016
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,880
Ben's credit is that I like, 
upon reading like several books 

1017
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,840
on him, I never encountered even
the slightest hint of jealousy. 

1018
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,880
I never read about any of the 
women he was with that he was 

1019
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,760
especially in love with, in 
particular like sleeping with 

1020
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,560
other men. 
But I from what I can tell, and 

1021
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,160
there's like, knowing him more 
or less after all this research,

1022
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,520
he would not have been bothered 
by it. 

1023
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,920
He never had to encounter it. 
But like, I think he did view 

1024
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:06,440
sex in this very freeway where 
it didn't mean very much to him.

1025
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,280
That's good, I guess, because 
we've seen, especially in 

1026
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:14,520
historic relationships where the
man will have affairs, he thinks

1027
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,720
it's fine, he justifies it. 
But then if the woman does, he's

1028
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:21,520
like, what? 
No, it's only a thing when I do 

1029
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,360
it, you know, so. 
Yeah, I'm in my own views on 

1030
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,840
like not a monogamy or that I 
don't like it. 

1031
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,200
I think that it like you can't 
abandoned this like social 

1032
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,520
institution that your ancestors 
have done for generations 

1033
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,360
because it was a successful 
cultural innovation and then 

1034
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,920
expect to reinvent the wheel in 
your own lifetime. 

1035
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,480
I think that the sexual 
revolution has been kind of 

1036
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,080
harmful for women. 
Like, have you ever heard of 

1037
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,240
Luis Perry or her book The Case 
Against the Sexual Revolution? 

1038
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,600
I've heard that title. 
Yeah, I have. 

1039
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,400
It's a very good book. 
I recommend it for any of your 

1040
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,280
listeners. 
But yeah, it's like very clear 

1041
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,960
just from this one relationship 
and all the other like non 

1042
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:09,600
monogamy ones I've heard about. 
But I'll reference this meme. 

1043
00:54:09,720 --> 00:54:11,320
It's this one that says like 
I've. 

1044
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,080
Definitely seen this. 
When you see two people in an 

1045
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,880
open relationship, it's like 
which one of you came up with 

1046
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:19,520
the idea and which one of you 
cries to sleep every night? 

1047
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,520
Like I think they both came up 
with the idea but then there is 

1048
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,000
one definitely crying themselves
to sleep at night and that was 

1049
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,800
Emma. 
Yes, so sad. 

1050
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,120
Yeah. 
But I, I'm sure it works for 

1051
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:36,440
some people. 
But I do feel like often times 

1052
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:41,280
there is one person who is 
compromising and just going 

1053
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:43,640
along with it just because they 
love the other person so much 

1054
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:44,720
and they don't want to lose 
them. 

1055
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,000
And I think it's worth it, but 
it's not what they want. 

1056
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,400
And yeah, they are. 
They are crying themselves to 

1057
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,960
sleep at night and. 
I do encounter this in the gay 

1058
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:59,160
community too. 
I'm gay and like, like non 

1059
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,400
monogamy is pretty common 
amongst non amongst gay men, 

1060
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,560
more so than it is for 
heterosexual people. 

1061
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,560
And I often times do encounter 
gay guys who feel like they have

1062
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:11,360
to be flexible and they can't 
really negotiate monogamy, 

1063
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,160
especially because the way like 
a lot of gay relationships, the 

1064
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,960
way they start is through like 
casual sexual encounters. 

1065
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:19,560
And then they just keep doing 
it. 

1066
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,000
And then eventually they're 
like, oh, we spent so much time 

1067
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:23,920
together, like, why not be 
boyfriends? 

1068
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:27,560
And so they never had that 
conversation of like, I want you

1069
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:29,080
to be committed, I'll be 
committed. 

1070
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:30,560
And they can never really have 
it. 

1071
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:31,880
So anyway. 
Do you think there's like 

1072
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,400
pressure to be in open 
relationship? 

1073
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,360
Do you feel like? 
I think it is harder to get into

1074
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,920
a relationship if that's, yeah, 
the flexibility is going to help

1075
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:45,520
you get a boyfriend more so. 
But yeah, it's not something I 

1076
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:50,120
like, yeah. 
I'm always afraid of upsetting 

1077
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,280
people. 
But I I, I agree with what 

1078
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,880
you're saying, though. 
I think I heard this quoted from

1079
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:58,600
someone else talking about 
monogamy that was saying like, 

1080
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,480
it's not perfect, but it's the 
best system we have. 

1081
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,600
Like, yeah, there's, I mean, 
nothing's going to be perfect on

1082
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,560
Earth, I don't think. 
But it has been going on for 

1083
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,080
centuries, so. 
Yeah, like I heard an interview 

1084
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,400
with Luis Perry on low society 
where the interviewer is 

1085
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,640
Nigerian and they were talking 
about how in Nigeria you have a 

1086
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,120
culture of society where there 
is monogamy, non monogamy being 

1087
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,400
practiced side by side because 
Christians are monogamous and 

1088
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,520
Muslims are free to practice 
polygamy. 

1089
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,840
And there it's like very 
unstable. 

1090
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,760
Like you can see the benefits 
when you compare the two side by

1091
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,680
side. 
Yeah, I mean it is dangerous for

1092
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,920
women to be having casual sex, 
you know, literally could get. 

1093
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:47,160
Pregnant or yeah, the 
consequences of STD's are much 

1094
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,920
more harmful. 
Yeah, so it isn't really. 

1095
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,840
I don't think people should 
treat it so laissez faire, like,

1096
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,560
OK, there actually are 
consequences to sleeping around 

1097
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,720
with a ton of people or you 
don't know what your partner's 

1098
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:01,920
doing, you know, so. 
Yeah, and you know, on a 

1099
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:07,400
personal note too, I oftentimes 
through dating, I like suspect 

1100
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,960
that like I want her boyfriend. 
I want to be in relationships 

1101
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,320
more than average because my mom
passed away when I was a kid. 

1102
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,800
And I've always just assumed 
that like people have parents 

1103
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,080
and don't want to date others as
much because they have this like

1104
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,520
core figure in their lives. 
And with Ben, with Ben to the 

1105
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,640
extreme degree. 
And I think that was part of why

1106
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:28,080
he acted the way he did because 
he always had this mother to 

1107
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,840
come back to. 
The lobby felt probably wasn't 

1108
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,840
sexual, but it like entered this
territory that was like closer 

1109
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,360
to a relationship with a woman 
than it should be. 

1110
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:39,800
Yeah, that's so interesting. 
Yeah. 

1111
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,600
He didn't feel like he needed 
that in a wife. 

1112
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:43,840
Really. 
Yeah. 

1113
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,280
He just didn't need 
relationships as much because he

1114
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:47,880
always had this mother to return
to. 

1115
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,480
But yeah, that's something that 
I have. 

1116
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,160
I mean, that's definitely not 
going on with like the people I 

1117
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,600
talked to who goes to me, but I 
oftentimes am like, OK, I 

1118
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,880
clearly want this more than 
other people and this is 

1119
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,480
probably why. 
That's so insightful in 

1120
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:01,840
yourself. 
Yeah. 

1121
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:04,480
And so, OK, back to the 
relationship. 

1122
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,080
They're touring the country. 
They're generating a lot of 

1123
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:09,880
controversy. 
A major event happens, and it 

1124
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,800
was the San Diego Free speech 
fight. 

1125
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,640
This happened in 1912. 
So in San Diego, there was labor

1126
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,920
activity happening with the IWW,
which was a labor organization 

1127
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:26,240
that was trying to create one 
big union for all, all workers 

1128
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,680
in the entire country to join. 
So basically the means of 

1129
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,760
production, the centralized 
power that the capitalist class 

1130
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,800
had, it would be stripped away 
and given purely to workers 

1131
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,040
once, once like there was this 
massive union that everyone 

1132
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,040
could participate in. 
Is this still going on? 

1133
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:43,400
No. 
OK, it wasn't. 

1134
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,920
Successful. 
I swear today I saw something in

1135
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:50,600
a store window or something that
said IWW and it had like protest

1136
00:58:50,600 --> 00:58:53,320
type signage. 
Yeah. 

1137
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:57,400
Do you think that's possible? 
It might be like historical, but

1138
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,520
I don't think that UW still 
exists. 

1139
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,840
Because I mean, you covered 
this, but I did read that book 

1140
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,440
and I think I came that excerpt 
of the book and I came across 

1141
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,400
that. 
And so I saw that and I couldn't

1142
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,240
believe it because we're 
recording this today and I was 

1143
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,000
like, what the heck? 
I mean, I'm going to go back 

1144
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,320
over there later, so I'll check 
it out to see what that window 

1145
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:14,920
was. 
But. 

1146
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:16,200
Yeah. 
I wonder what it was. 

1147
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:24,240
Yeah, So in San Diego, there was
a wobbly IWW member who was 

1148
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,720
killed through mob violence in 
1912. 

1149
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,200
And then the following day, Ben 
and Emma, they travel from Los 

1150
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:35,360
Angeles to San Diego into the 
city, and things are like fever 

1151
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,160
pitch in terms of political 
turmoil. 

1152
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,320
They get separated. 
Ben gets kidnapped by a group of

1153
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,000
men. 
They can do desert. 

1154
00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:45,960
They assault him and torture him
for several hours. 

1155
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:50,680
They do things like burn IWW 
into his butt with a lit cigar. 

1156
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,080
And so it's like a really 
traumatizing incident because 

1157
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,120
for something to be traumatic, 
you're faced with the literal 

1158
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,560
threat of annihilation. 
And someone was killed through 

1159
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,360
mob violence the day before. 
I mean, this could have ended 

1160
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:04,960
with him getting shot. 
Yeah. 

1161
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:09,120
And he ended up surviving, But 
he was really shaken up by this.

1162
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,440
Emma, this is like one of the 
few cases where I'm like, OK, 

1163
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,760
she was kind of bogus. 
Like, she was the less good 

1164
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,200
partner for this, but she kind 
of got the ick after seeing him 

1165
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:19,520
traumatized. 
Like he was shaking. 

1166
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,000
Terrible. 
Yeah, right, Emma, come on. 

1167
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,480
I know it's like it's very 
understandable for someone do 

1168
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:29,160
not be the same after they 
almost die. 

1169
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:31,320
Yeah, what the heck? 
OK, that, Yeah. 

1170
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,240
So this was the first sort of 
bump. 

1171
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,560
I mean, prior to this, Emma is 
like aware that Ben is having 

1172
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,360
sex with other women and hurt by
it, but this is the first thing 

1173
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,840
that sort of set things into 
motion for their relationship to

1174
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,040
eventually end. 
So after this, Ben and Emma, 

1175
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,280
they start to speak more openly 
in birth control. 

1176
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,480
Ben was really in his element 
with this because he was a 

1177
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:54,560
Doctor Who worked in public 
health clinics. 

1178
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:57,320
He was an expert on venereal 
disease and was very passionate 

1179
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,840
about it. 
So he loved it. 

1180
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,120
This was one of the most 
exciting times for him. 

1181
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,480
But as I mentioned, it was like 
amongst the most controversial 

1182
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,280
things for them to publicly 
speak about. 

1183
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:11,480
They would use, they would talk 
about like sex and safe sex 

1184
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,360
without any euphemisms, any 
innuendos. 

1185
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,920
They would just say like wear a 
condom. 

1186
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,600
And this was like very anathema 
at the time. 

1187
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,720
So he got hit with a fine in 
Cleveland of $1000 and served a 

1188
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,240
six month prison sentence, which
was the longest sentence given 

1189
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,360
to someone for social agitation 
around sexuality at the time. 

1190
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,400
Just for speaking about this. 
Yeah, isn't that wild? 

1191
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,680
Yeah. 
And then I encountered something

1192
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,160
really interesting in the book 
that I want to bring out. 

1193
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,320
OK, as a gay guy I'm always 
fascinated when I encounter 

1194
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,280
situational homosexuality. 
Oh yeah, yeah. 

1195
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,560
Because, you know, historically,
like in ancient Rome, like, same

1196
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,200
sex attraction is a lot was a 
lot more common than it is 

1197
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,720
today. 
And then when you read about 

1198
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,560
people like Ben Reitman doing 
gay stuff in prison, it really 

1199
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:01,480
kind of breaks your brain. 
Yeah. 

1200
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:04,240
It like makes you reevaluate if 
what straight men say about 

1201
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:05,760
their sexualities is really 
true. 

1202
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:08,840
Right. 
But yeah, I read in his book 

1203
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:13,040
that Macarette Mccarpenter wrote
that he said, if nobody's 

1204
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,360
looking, I can tell you I 
enjoyed a few of the male 

1205
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,120
homosexuals. 
Yes, I took my my fun and I 

1206
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:21,480
found it. 
And I've denied myself nothing. 

1207
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,240
Well, all right. 
It's just as crazy to read about

1208
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:28,080
like this historical figure I'd 
looked up to you for quite a 

1209
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,000
while. 
Yeah, I had no idea that he was 

1210
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,280
just like, sure, I'm down. 
Yeah. 

1211
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,760
Wow. 
I mean, he really did everything

1212
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:39,320
OK so. 
He did everything. 

1213
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,880
Shortly after prison, they did 
some political activism together

1214
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,360
where they encouraged people to 
dodge the draft. 

1215
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,600
After the onset of World War 
One, this was a big deal. 

1216
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,320
This is what eventually got Emma
deported. 

1217
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,440
But around this time, Ben 
started to fantasize about a 

1218
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:57,680
life with the next significant 
love in his life, which was Anna

1219
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,040
Martindale. 
She was eventually the mother of

1220
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:06,440
his one and only son Brutus, and
he like more or less the reason 

1221
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,920
why the relationship ended on 
his end was because he wanted to

1222
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:16,040
like have a child with Anna and 
then he had a happier life for 

1223
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:19,200
that period without Emma raising
Brutus along with Anna. 

1224
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:21,240
Was there some overlap with 
Emma? 

1225
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,480
They were talking beforehand. 
OK, there's overlap with all of 

1226
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,240
the women, though. 
I mean, later on after the 

1227
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,800
relationship ended, he continues
to talk to to Emma when he's 

1228
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:34,800
with other women that he loves 
and often times he is sexually 

1229
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,520
active with, you know them 
before or after. 

1230
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,480
And anyway, very complex. 
The chart at the beginning of 

1231
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,000
the book is not so cut through. 
OK, I see. 

1232
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:47,600
Yeah, OK, so that's why it sort 
of ended on Ben's end. 

1233
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,320
But why did it end on Emma's 
end? 

1234
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,200
It was really because of the non
monogamy that was like breaking 

1235
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,200
her heart. 
It was really deeply affecting 

1236
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,680
her and her well-being. 
There's also a period of time 

1237
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,160
where Ida and Ben lived with 
Emma. 

1238
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,400
His mom. 
And if you can imagine what it 

1239
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:07,280
was like to live with Ida, she 
was like the worst in law you 

1240
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:09,440
can imagine. 
I think Emma had to like throw a

1241
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,040
chair at them to get them to 
leave her house. 

1242
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,640
Oh my gosh, I mean, that must 
have been so frustrating to deal

1243
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,200
with that she's living with his 
mother and then he can't even 

1244
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,200
keep his hands off other women. 
I can imagine eventually feeling

1245
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:23,920
like, why am I putting up with 
this? 

1246
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:27,000
Like this sucks and you're not 
even committed to me, you know? 

1247
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:31,640
Yeah, so that was like, hard. 
But yeah, they drifted apart. 

1248
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,880
It was really more so Ben's 
decision to go and settle down 

1249
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,200
with Anna and Martindale because
they lived in the same house. 

1250
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,160
He's was pretty stable for that 
period of time. 

1251
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,040
Like the most stable he was over
the course of his life because 

1252
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:47,760
he he was actually like helping 
raise his son. 

1253
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:50,640
He was living with Anna, wasn't 
monogamous, but was, like, 

1254
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,000
pretty committed to her and to 
the extent that he could be. 

1255
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,520
And then he was actually, like, 
making money for as a doctor. 

1256
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:59,520
Like, that was the only time 
during his life that he was 

1257
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:01,880
actually pretty solvent. 
Yeah. 

1258
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:06,400
Kind of got his shit together. 
For. 

1259
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,760
A period for a period. 
But after they broke up, Emma 

1260
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,560
and Ben continued to write each 
other. 

1261
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:16,720
They Ben did preposition her at 
one point to become lovers later

1262
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,000
on, but she was like, it would 
break me. 

1263
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:23,520
I can't ever do that again. 
But most of their correspondence

1264
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:27,120
it had to do with like Emma and 
him writing their own 

1265
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,320
biographies or books. 
Then would write to Emma and be 

1266
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:32,000
like can you help me with my 
biography? 

1267
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,960
Wow. 
That's, that's kind of 

1268
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:39,160
interesting because I'm assuming
he mentioned her and other women

1269
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:42,440
maybe And then for her to work 
on that. 

1270
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,760
Wow. 
Yeah, I mean, he read her whole 

1271
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:47,880
biography because his never got 
published. 

1272
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,960
Ms. did. 
And within it he was, she was 

1273
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:53,640
not very kind to him. 
She kind of described him as 

1274
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:57,760
being not a villain in her life,
but pretty close at times. 

1275
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,280
And he was so upset by her 
portrayal of him that he lost 20

1276
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:01,880
lbs. 
Oh. 

1277
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:09,000
My gosh, I've been there. 
Not 20 lbs, but yeah. 

1278
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,120
Yeah, So what were their lives 
like during their later years? 

1279
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,760
So Emma did publish that 
biography. 

1280
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:19,240
She later got deported to Russia
because Alexander Berkman's 

1281
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,840
citizenship was revoked upon his
release from prison. 

1282
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,520
He was no longer an American 
citizen, so she was legally like

1283
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:28,360
a Russian citizen. 
She got sent back to the Russian

1284
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,880
Empire, but by that point, the 
Bolshevik Revolution had 

1285
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,480
happened, and she was actually 
not very happy upon getting to 

1286
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:37,360
Russia. 
She thought she liked it from a 

1287
01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,440
distance, but she described it 
as being kind of like, 

1288
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:44,080
uninspiring to have seen the 
revolution finally come. 

1289
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:46,040
Wow, she was. 
She wanted. 

1290
01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:49,000
She liked the fervor of like, 
wanting it, not actually seeing 

1291
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,400
the aftermath. 
It was kind of boring. 

1292
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:55,920
I can't believe that. 
Yeah, I guess that happens. 

1293
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,920
It's it's all about the chase, 
the energy to make it happen. 

1294
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,600
And then, then what do you do? 
But also, I mean, Communist 

1295
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:05,800
Russia wasn't the same as an 
anarchist society. 

1296
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,440
The state was very central and 
had a lot of control. 

1297
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,520
So she actually, I think she 
wrote a book or a paper about 

1298
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:16,000
how much she disliked Russia, 
which was lifted up in the West 

1299
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,840
in America as an example of like
a Red Scare propaganda, right? 

1300
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,720
Yeah, look at this. 
This Russian who is denouncing 

1301
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:26,640
her own country. 
Yeah. 

1302
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,360
And then her biography is long 
and it continues. 

1303
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,440
She gets involved with this, the
Spanish Civil War. 

1304
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:35,600
It's very complex. 
But she never really gets to 

1305
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,960
spend that much time in the US 
that you wouldn't let her back 

1306
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,760
in the country because they 
thought her ideas were too 

1307
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,320
radical. 
But I think I remember reading 

1308
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,040
in the book that she did, she 
and Ben did meet face to face at

1309
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,640
least one more time. 
Wow, yeah, that must have been 

1310
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,600
intense. 
Yeah, I imagine being like when 

1311
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,240
Marina Abramovic and like, what 
was his name? 

1312
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:58,200
Ulay. 
I think that was his name. 

1313
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,400
Matt, do you know that couple? 
No. 

1314
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,800
She was, she's the most famous 
living performance artist and 

1315
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:10,120
she did a lot of her early work 
with her I think. 

1316
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,720
I don't think they were married,
but her long time partner Ulay, 

1317
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,040
I believe his name was. 
But then they they actually had 

1318
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:19,080
to part ways because Ulay was 
not faithful. 

1319
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,160
Wow. 
And they then eventually did 

1320
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:24,880
meet face to face during one of 
the Marina Abramovic's 

1321
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,880
performances where she was 
sitting down across from people 

1322
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:29,720
and making eye contact for 5 
minutes. 

1323
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,760
I did see this, yeah. 
I didn't know their names, but 

1324
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:34,760
yes. 
And then he sits down. 

1325
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,760
Yeah. 
Imagine it having that intensity

1326
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,800
where it's like they had the 
capacity to love each other 

1327
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:45,319
forever, but again, the men and 
their relationships, infidelity 

1328
01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:47,520
was what really prohibited that 
from happening. 

1329
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,200
Yeah, intense. 
So what happened to Ben in the 

1330
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:54,160
later years? 
So he continued being a doctor, 

1331
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,399
serving the poor. 
He never finished his biography,

1332
01:08:57,399 --> 01:08:59,359
but he did read. 
He did write. 

1333
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,840
He never finished his 
autobiography, but he did write 

1334
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:05,319
several books, largely with the 
help of some of the other women 

1335
01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:08,399
he loved because he he don't go 
to school at 10. 

1336
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:11,319
He needed them to help write 
like proper sentences. 

1337
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:15,120
So Anna Martindale, the woman he
left MO for, they had their son 

1338
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,080
Brutus. 
Anna Martindale died when like 

1339
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,600
Brutus was 10 or 12. 
And then Brutus himself died 

1340
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,640
pretty young at the age of 25, a
year after his father passed 

1341
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:28,319
away. 
But he his wife was pregnant at 

1342
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:31,080
the time of his death. 
So there is like a paternal, 

1343
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,080
right, man like his son had a 
son. 

1344
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,840
So there's a great grandson out 
there, I believe. 

1345
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,439
And then Medina Oliver, that's 
the mother of Mecca Reitman 

1346
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,000
Carpenter. 
A lot of the book Mecca is 

1347
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,200
referring back to her mother's 
perspective on Ben. 

1348
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:48,200
And she was just very 
straightforward about who like 

1349
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:51,319
Ben Reitman was as a person. 
It was a very conscious thing of

1350
01:09:51,319 --> 01:09:53,479
like, this will be the father of
my my children. 

1351
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,080
And she ended up having four 
with him. 

1352
01:09:56,440 --> 01:10:00,920
And yeah, the last one was 
actually conceived before Ben 

1353
01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:02,640
died and then was born after he 
did. 

1354
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,960
So that was like a final gift or
present, she described it as 

1355
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,240
being. 
I think I remember in the 

1356
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:12,200
passage I read that she was very
different from Emma, like she 

1357
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,000
wasn't very political right. 
Yeah, she wasn't. 

1358
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,560
I think that she did attend one 
of Emma's lectures, and I'd 

1359
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:21,840
actually read her biography, 
Living My Life, I think it's 

1360
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:25,240
called. 
But yeah, she didn't really 

1361
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:27,920
share the same political fervor 
that either had. 

1362
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:30,840
That's always interesting when 
someone's in a relationship with

1363
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:33,840
one person that you know very 
much one way and then their next

1364
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,720
partner is really not like that 
at all. 

1365
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:39,160
Have you ever heard the phrase 
kismogenesis? 

1366
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,320
I don't know. 
I describes some group of people

1367
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:46,640
react against each other, like 
say one group of people wears 

1368
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:50,200
blue, the other words red. 
It's the process by which people

1369
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,040
are intentionally different. 
And it's often described on like

1370
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,160
the cultural level of groups. 
But I oftentimes think it 

1371
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:59,320
happens on a personal level too,
where when you're side by side 

1372
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:02,240
with someone, the ways that 
you're different become more 

1373
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,160
extreme. 
And then if you were someone 

1374
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:06,160
else, you might actually find 
like. 

1375
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:10,000
Anyway, those things can get 
amplified depending on who 

1376
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:12,360
you're with. 
Yeah, for sure, I get what you 

1377
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:13,480
mean. 
Yeah. 

1378
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:17,800
And definitely, I think the more
emotional the relationship 

1379
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:22,720
between two people might be or 
the fallout that could shift the

1380
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:27,760
the change between who they're 
with next or yeah, yeah. 

1381
01:11:27,960 --> 01:11:30,960
And then did you want to share 
any thoughts on Emma Goldman or 

1382
01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:33,000
Ben Reitman before you kind of 
round things out? 

1383
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:35,200
How did they stack up compared 
to all the other couples you 

1384
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:39,200
talk about? 
I found them so interesting and 

1385
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:43,360
messy and I I'm really 
interested in Emma because she 

1386
01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:48,200
seems like such a strong willed,
tough woman that, you know, 

1387
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,080
people would put on feminist 
mugs or something today. 

1388
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,920
But she's it seems like she was 
sensitive deep down and romantic

1389
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:58,360
and wanted to just have a pure 
love. 

1390
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,880
And that's really endearing to 
me. 

1391
01:11:59,880 --> 01:12:05,000
I I think that she had seemingly
a harder exterior, like when she

1392
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:08,120
was down for political violence 
and things like that. 

1393
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:10,400
But I find that kind of heart 
warming. 

1394
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,320
And it's, it's sad too, because 
Ben couldn't really give her 

1395
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:14,800
that. 
But yeah, I just want to 

1396
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:16,320
touching learning about their 
story. 

1397
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:21,760
And a lot of, we do a lot of 
modern couples, you know, But I 

1398
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,840
find with all the historical 
ones we've done, the people just

1399
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,280
had such complex, crazy lives I 
think that are even more 

1400
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:31,600
interesting than most modern 
people for whatever reason. 

1401
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,400
So yeah. 
I mean, I find it interesting to

1402
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:38,720
learn that like a lot of Ben's 
relationships would start with 

1403
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:42,840
women purely overriding first 
because I often times find like 

1404
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,480
online messaging has been an 
important part of my 

1405
01:12:45,480 --> 01:12:48,440
relationships as a gay guy. 
Like it's harder to meet people 

1406
01:12:48,440 --> 01:12:50,480
in real life, and that's usually
a minus started. 

1407
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,280
But yeah, it's it sort of 
affirms my own like romantic 

1408
01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:58,400
history in a way, because it's 
like if this guy's this famous 

1409
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:02,320
and like she's this famous and 
virtual or not virtual but 

1410
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:04,360
analog correspondence is this 
important? 

1411
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:06,640
I think it says a lot. 
Yeah, true. 

1412
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:10,640
I always talk about that with my
sister because yeah, people do 

1413
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:14,400
put down text messaging, emails,
whatever. 

1414
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,920
Like you shouldn't shouldn't 
start a relationship over texts 

1415
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:23,280
or you shouldn't break up over 
an e-mail or whatever or or that

1416
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,080
you shouldn't be afraid to talk 
on the phone or whatever. 

1417
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:28,000
I've always been a shy phone 
talker. 

1418
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:29,920
I've gotten better, but when I 
was younger I was very shy. 

1419
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,600
But I mean if you think about 
it, the phone hasn't even 

1420
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:36,360
existed for that long and people
back in the day they would 

1421
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:38,600
literally propose marriage like 
in letters. 

1422
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:43,320
So it's actually nothing new to 
be sharing emotional messages 

1423
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:45,160
and important things over 
writing. 

1424
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:48,280
Yeah, and it's nice that they 
did because we were able to talk

1425
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:51,400
about the relationship in depth 
because he left behind so many 

1426
01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:53,880
letters. 
He once said like I will be 

1427
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:55,880
remembered by my carbons, and he
is. 

1428
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:59,640
Yeah, wow. 
But I have a particular thing I 

1429
01:13:59,640 --> 01:14:03,480
kind of want to round out with, 
and it's really analyzing the 

1430
01:14:03,480 --> 01:14:06,640
title of Mecca Rightman 
Carpenter's book, No Regrets. 

1431
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,640
I find this really interesting 
because I think the phrase No 

1432
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:15,000
regrets, it has a lot of meaning
for people who had flawed 

1433
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:18,280
parents. 
But before I get to that, do you

1434
01:14:18,280 --> 01:14:22,000
think Ben was a good person? 
That's that's a tough one. 

1435
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:28,000
I think overall, yes, I think it
seemed like he had good 

1436
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:30,000
intentions and wanted to help 
people. 

1437
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:34,360
I know that's the tough thing is
people seem to segment their 

1438
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:37,280
love life sometimes or 
compartmentalize it from the 

1439
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:41,360
rest of their their lives. 
So was he a good lover or good 

1440
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:43,360
partner? 
I don't think so, but I think 

1441
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,040
seems like he was a good person.
What do you think? 

1442
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:50,080
Yeah, I think more than most 
people, it would be really 

1443
01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,000
interesting to try to 
theoretically tally up like the 

1444
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:56,600
good and the bad because the 
amount of people he helped 

1445
01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:59,640
through medicine, the number of 
hobos he helped through welfare 

1446
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,040
programs, Yeah, like he helped 
thousands. 

1447
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:06,040
But then I think there are these
cases where like, one person was

1448
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:09,880
like severely harmed by his 
actions and that I don't know if

1449
01:15:10,480 --> 01:15:12,520
how you'd weigh those out or if 
you could. 

1450
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:16,800
But he once said about himself, 
and I'm going to truncate this 

1451
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:18,120
quote because it's too long. 
OK. 

1452
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:23,240
But you said that I've been a 
liar, a thief, a cheat, a pimp, 

1453
01:15:23,480 --> 01:15:27,480
an adulterer, a robber of 
innocent women, a drunkard, a 

1454
01:15:27,480 --> 01:15:31,560
dope fiend, A pervert, A 
hypocrite, and the list goes on.

1455
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:35,480
And then he says at the end, I 
have never denied any of the 

1456
01:15:35,480 --> 01:15:37,200
charges. 
Wow. 

1457
01:15:38,920 --> 01:15:42,080
OK, so in his own mind, I don't 
think he was really concerned 

1458
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:44,320
with that question. 
But I find it interesting 

1459
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,560
because through this episode, in
the research, I was just as 

1460
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:51,400
interested in Ben's relationship
with Emma as I was with his 

1461
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:55,600
daughter, Mecca Rettman 
Carpenter, because her decision 

1462
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,160
to write this book is 
fascinating. 

1463
01:15:57,440 --> 01:16:01,200
I took a ton of research and it 
was really an effort of love. 

1464
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:05,360
But I don't think she had this 
image of her dad of being a bad 

1465
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:08,800
person, in part because her dad 
died when she was pretty young, 

1466
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:10,800
at six years old. 
And then her mother took great 

1467
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:14,560
efforts to preserve this image 
of her dad as being this larger 

1468
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:18,840
than life Magnum Minius figure. 
And so I don't think she viewed 

1469
01:16:18,840 --> 01:16:21,720
him as being bad. 
But I've known several people 

1470
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,600
where like they ever had a 
parent who is like abusive or 

1471
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,000
neglectful and they said that 
like the worst thing they've 

1472
01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:31,360
ever said to them is like, Oh, I
have no regrets. 

1473
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:34,200
I you know, I wouldn't do 
anything differently if I could.

1474
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:37,880
And the adult child would be 
like, you wouldn't have raised 

1475
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,120
me differently or like done XY 
or Z. 

1476
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:42,360
And then they're like, no, 
that's like the worst thing they

1477
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:45,440
could say. 
And so upon starting this book, 

1478
01:16:45,440 --> 01:16:49,520
I was like, is she grappling 
with that question of like, she 

1479
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,480
sees him, sees him as being this
really flawed person and like 

1480
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,120
she's really trying to grapple 
with if he was or not? 

1481
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:57,800
And was she grappling with that 
question? 

1482
01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:02,560
What's interesting is the answer
is that Mecca considers herself 

1483
01:17:02,680 --> 01:17:04,480
amongst the women who have loved
Ben. 

1484
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:08,040
There's this quote in the book 
where he says like the kind of 

1485
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,480
thing God has ever done for me 
is give me all these women who 

1486
01:17:10,480 --> 01:17:12,840
have loved me throughout my life
and supported me. 

1487
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:14,760
Like, that's the sign that 
there's a God in my life. 

1488
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:19,040
And she, like, intentionally 
inserts herself in that list. 

1489
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:21,000
In a platonic way, obviously. 
Yeah. 

1490
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:24,960
Not in a weird sexual way, like,
all of the sexual relationships 

1491
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:27,520
he had. 
But she described it as being, 

1492
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:29,800
like, all of the other women in 
her father's life. 

1493
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,720
My favorite of his love stories 
was how he came to fall in love 

1494
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:36,320
with me. 
And I just think like men who 

1495
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:41,160
are especially passionate, who 
are like given to their own 

1496
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:44,760
will, who achieve greatness, 
there oftentimes is this like 

1497
01:17:44,760 --> 01:17:46,640
dark side or this chaotic side 
to them. 

1498
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:48,920
Are you familiar with Camille 
Paglia? 

1499
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:49,960
A. 
Little bit. 

1500
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:53,200
I've never read any of her 
stuff, but I've heard of it, 

1501
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:55,320
yeah. 
She's a controversial figure. 

1502
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:57,920
She's not popular in feminist 
circles. 

1503
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,040
She has this quote that I've 
often thought about in 

1504
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:05,160
relationship to Ben Reitman. 
And she once said that there's 

1505
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,040
no female Mozart because there's
no female Jack Thripper. 

1506
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,600
That quote, it was intended to 
be a commentary on women. 

1507
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,080
But if you strip down the 
gendered language and apply it 

1508
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:18,160
to just humanity in general, I 
think that duality is necessary 

1509
01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:20,520
oftentimes in order to do great 
things. 

1510
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:24,480
You need to be willing to give 
in to your passions, your 

1511
01:18:24,480 --> 01:18:27,800
emotions in order to drive 
forward and, you know, set up a 

1512
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:32,040
hobo college or become a doctor 
or do all these things that Ben 

1513
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:35,040
did. 
And so I have, I can kind of see

1514
01:18:35,040 --> 01:18:38,240
from a distance, like how Ben 
was easy to love. 

1515
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,080
I'm not in love with him, 
obviously, but I, I imagine 

1516
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:44,240
myself, if I ever met him in 
person, being equally as 

1517
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:47,400
entranced by like, how lively he
was, how vivacious. 

1518
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:53,120
And yeah, even his daughter is 
like sort of grappling with that

1519
01:18:53,120 --> 01:18:57,080
image, too. 
Yeah, there there is something 

1520
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:00,480
about a passionate man, like you
said, like someone that just 

1521
01:19:00,480 --> 01:19:05,440
throws themselves completely 
into whether it's music or 

1522
01:19:05,440 --> 01:19:08,680
murdering people or whatever. 
I I kind of get what she's 

1523
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,400
saying that. 
Yeah, I think it's easier to 

1524
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:16,160
feel emotions for people who are
emotional because like emotions 

1525
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,880
are like a tool of 
correspondence of sort. 

1526
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,480
The reason to feel them is to 
communicate with others. 

1527
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:25,200
I know I but hopefully that 
wasn't like a crazy way to round

1528
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:26,160
things. 
No, no. 

1529
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,000
I just think it is really 
profound of like, why did so 

1530
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:33,920
many people love him? 
Why am I so fascinated with him?

1531
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:35,840
Why was his daughter so 
fascinated with him? 

1532
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:38,360
Because I think there was 
something about his spirit that 

1533
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:40,960
attracted Emma and all these 
other people to him. 

1534
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:44,920
Yeah, I mean, he seems like he 
had this confidence in himself. 

1535
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:48,600
He just felt content to live the
way he wanted to. 

1536
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:50,720
And I think people just want a 
part of that and they just think

1537
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:54,320
being close to that, oh, maybe 
give them some of that freedom, 

1538
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:58,440
that special quality, you know? 
So even if he might kind of 

1539
01:19:58,440 --> 01:20:02,840
treat you like crap, you feel. 
Like you are him in a way just 

1540
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:07,240
to know him, you know? 
Yeah, and Medina Oliver being so

1541
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:11,560
level headed and pretty rational
and just being like my children 

1542
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:14,280
should be half him. 
It's just fascinating. 

1543
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:17,240
It is what a guy. 
Yeah, well, thank you for 

1544
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:19,000
inviting me on. 
I had a lot of fun. 

1545
01:20:19,080 --> 01:20:22,920
Thank you for coming, this was 
so interesting and cool and 

1546
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:25,520
weird. 
Also because I listen to your 

1547
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,920
podcast, so it's crazy to meet 
you and be here, but it's really

1548
01:20:28,920 --> 01:20:29,960
cool. 
Thank you. 

1549
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:32,000
Thank you Have. 
A good day, bye everyone. 

1550
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:39,440
Yeah, thanks for listening. 
Is your heart filled with pain? 

1551
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:54,040
Shall I come back again? 
Tell me, dear heart you Lord.