Are you lonesome tonight? Do you miss me tonight?
Are you sorry we drifted apart? Hello.
Hi. Hi, guys.
Welcome to significant lovers. True love podcast.
Yep, we are three cousins Zoo. I'm Kel.
I'm Mel. And I'm Caitlin and.
Thanks for joining us. Yes, thank you, thank you, thank
you. It's a new year.
Yes, 2025. It's a new era of significant
lovers. Yes, and it's funny 'cause I
don't know, I still think of our seasons of the podcast as the
school year, like September. Yeah, me too, I do too 'cause we
started it like, well, did we start in August?
I think we started like late August or maybe early August.
Yeah. So it's not really a new era.
Well, you know how like TV shows used to have mid season finales
and then they'd go on a break? It's kind of like that.
It's. Yeah, Reprieve.
Yeah, it's second semester. Exactly.
So Caitlin is hosting today, in charge today, is telling the
love story today. Kate, who are we talking about?
Yes. So we are talking about Caesar
and Cleopatra, I know, taking it all the way back in time to
ancient Rome and ancient Egypt. Oh my gosh, Yep, I just saw
Gladiator so I'm. Is he in that?
Is Caesar in that? No, you know, it's Rome.
I haven't seen any of the Gladiators Don't Hate Me
listeners so. Well, I don't think it's the
same. It's not the same time.
Oh, it's not. No, I don't.
I think Caesar was maybe long. Gone by then, maybe.
Yeah, well, I know from doing research that he used to oversee
some gladiator games and he'd have gladiators and stuff, so I
wasn't sure. Crazy.
Yeah, Yeah, Mel and I, when we first started this podcast and
then of course, Caitlin joined recently full time.
We made a spreadsheet of ideas of couples.
And I remember this was on the list.
Like, I think it was actually pretty high up.
We were like, Oh yeah, we could do seasoning Cleopatra, but
neither of us ever did. And so thanks, Kate, for.
Yeah, it's actually #22 on our list.
Wow. I mean, it wasn't in like any
kind of order, but we have like 200 ideas on.
Here SO. I'm glad that you are finally
doing it. Yeah, so it was #22 and now this
is what episode 106-7107 yeah, finally got us.
Done. So yeah, our first eleven ideas
on the spreadsheet we have done, but then #12 we have not done
yet which was which is Ellen and Porsche.
Ooh, you'll. Have to do that soon.
We have a couple new patrons that we want to thank first
before we get into the episode for supporting us.
Thank you. If you guys want to get double
the amount of episodes a month you can join our Patreon.
It is $5.00 a month or $5 for an individual episode and we have a
couple new patrons. Thank you so much to Yo Tyron.
I think that's how you say it, Eoton.
Thank you, Aaron and SD. Thank you.
Yay. Clap, clap, clap, clap.
Mercy Boku. Yes.
Well, before we actually get into the episode, we will be
doing the trivia segment, which is a new segment on the pod, and
I'll be asking questions to Mel and Kel.
Some of these seem easy to be in, some of them seem hard.
So I'm going to start with the hardest question first, I think.
Ready. OK, which couple met at a hockey
game? Atlanta and Dave Coulier.
Oh yeah, you got it. I was.
Just about to say it. I was just about to.
I was too slow. Sorry.
Mel. OK, so the next question
episode. Yeah, so the next question, when
asked about their breakup years later, 1/2 of this couple that
we covered said I was so sad. Not angry, sad.
I was so miserable. I was barely eating and I
couldn't get out of bed. Feels a little familiar.
It does. I feel like it's kind of recent.
Is that Helena Bonham Carter? Oh, I said that fast.
Well, it's it's not recent. I wasn't sure if Mel was asking
that just rhetorically or not, but it's not a recent couple and
it's not Helena Bonham Carter and Tim Burton.
Lena Dunham. Nope.
Is it Winona Ryder? Nope.
No. Someone who was asked years
later. Is it Carly Simon?
Nope, Kelly, you're all out of guesses, OK?
Is it Ruby Rose? Nope.
And Melia, one more guess. Oh my gosh.
OK, I'm gonna say was it Miley Cyrus?
Nope. No one got it.
Who was it it? It was Mindy Kaling about her
breakup with BJ Novak. Oh my God.
I brought it all the way back to the first episode.
You're right, that was not recent.
As far back as he possibly could get.
OK. Damn, I need to get this one.
Yeah. So one last question for either
Mel to tie it up or for Kelly to win.
So which couple was 58 and 23 years old, respectively when
they began dating? I don't remember doing such an
age gap, do you Mel? Is this wait, was this King
James and George? Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.
You guys tied This couple that we're about to cover has a
similar age gap I would say. Oh really?
I did not. Actually, is it?
Let me do the math. I'm excited because I feel like
Caesar and Cleopatra are still some of the most famous humans
ever and yet I really don't know much at all about.
Them well, you'll be learning a lot this episode.
So I actually was intrigued to do this couple actually, because
in March of 2024, which would be close to almost a year from when
this episode's being released, I traveled to Egypt.
I went there by myself. True.
Well, not really by myself. I was with a tour group, but I
went there and I'd really fun was I had a lot of fun when I
was there. I love the food and the places I
visited and especially loved learning about the history.
It's just so like rich and expensive and fasting.
Like it's such such a long history.
It's a crazy. And so anyway, flash forward to
when you guys asked me to join the pod as the third host, like
a couple of months after the trip occurred.
I knew I wanted to cover an Egyptian couple.
And although there's like so many that I could possibly
choose from, like so, so many, I knew that really I couldn't
start with anyone other than Cleopatra.
But the real question was, like Cleopatra and who?
I didn't know who to cover, so I told Kelly a little bit about
this. But initially I thought I would
cover Cleopatra and Mark Antony because they're kind of
considered like the iconic ancient couple.
After all, they're the couple that Shakespeare wrote a play
about. Shakespeare wrote Julius Caesar,
but then he also wrote Mark Antony and Cleopatra.
Like they're the couple, pretty much.
They're a couple. Yeah, but when I began
researching them, I realized that I could, like, not cover
them. At least not without covering.
Cleopatra's relationship was Caesar first.
It was just too difficult not to.
Like Caesar was just far too ingratiated into both Cleopatra
and Mark's lives that I'd pretty much have to tell the whole long
story of Caesar's life as well as Cleopatra's relationship with
Caesar if I were to cover her and Mark first.
So in the end, I decide I may as well start with Caesar and do
them first before I ever get to her and Mark.
So I do plan to get to her and Mark.
Don't worry. Just not yet.
So not next week. Not next week.
Because, OK, it's also a big one and I didn't want to do 2 giant
ones pretty much back-to-back. Cool.
Yeah, but I will get to them probably the next time I'm host.
Nice. But before I begin, I do want to
say that just like with the James and George episode, which
go check out if you haven't already, which I really love
that episode. It's Shamus bug because I hosted
it. I loved it too.
It was such a wild time. Yeah.
I feel like we were like freaking out the whole.
Time, there was a lot of drama that, yeah, there's just so much
history about Rome and Egypt and even Caesar and Cleopatra's
life's that I just actually could not fit it all into this
episode. So just be aware that this will
not be completely comprehensive. I'll try to include everything
that's important, especially where they pertain to Cleopatra
and Caesar. But once again, like, it was
hard to include everything. So if you're a huge history buff
and you're mad that includes some battle or some historical
figure, just keep that in mind. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, it's really tough. Yeah.
But if you're on the opposite side of the spectrum and you
listen to this episode with a desire to learn more, I highly
recommend that you do. And I specially recommend that
you check out the sources that I use when researching for this
episode, which I used a lot 'cause I had to.
So I read Cleopatra, a source book by Prince Jay Jones, The
Death of Caesar by Barry Strauss, The 12 Caesars by Gaius
Atonius, Tranquil, and that was translated by Robert Graves,
Cleopatra Life by Stacey Schiff, as well as the Julius Caesar and
Cleopatra articles by Joshua J Mark on World History
encyclopedia.com. Because sometimes I needed
things to be explained to me like I was a child, and because
there's a lot that I didn't understand.
Oh, I read a book. I read another book by Stacey
Schiff. Oh, really?
Salem, yeah, about the Salem witch child.
She's great, I highly recommend. This she's.
Yeah, that was a very dense book.
Like in a good way. But she really does her
research. I know.
And I felt bad because I was reading the book and it was due
that night to return to the library.
So I was really just like flying through it and like trying to
read as much as I could and trying to get the information
and I was running. Get new books.
I couldn't because so I got the books at my school's library,
the school that I work at, and they like need all the books
before like the semester's over. I don't know why, like they
couldn't renew any of them. And then I started like taking
pictures of pages. So it's like my camera roll was
like 100 pictures of pages. So I could like look at the
information later on. But anyway, you kind of already
mentioned that you didn't really know much about Caesar and
Cleopatra. Mel, do you think you know
anything really about Season Cleopatra before this episode,
either separately or together? No, really not much at all.
Though my only experience with Cleopatra is the Shakespeare
play with her and Marc Anthony, so I don't know anything about
them as a couple. I mean, it's kind of crazy.
She had two high profile relationships.
I know. All I really know about her is
wasn't she Greek? Yes.
So I'll kind of get into that more.
They were like Greek Macedonian. So she really wasn't at all
ethnically Egyptian. Wow.
Even though she was like the queen of Egypt.
Twist. A twist.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think we're ready to hear the story.
Yeah, Kate, what 3 words would you use to describe this couple?
Yes. So I would use these 3 words.
Describe them powerful, mysterious, and promising.
Oh, OK. So I'm going to start with
Caesar because he was born first.
So Gaius Julius Caesar was born on July 12th or the 13th 100 BC.
People also maybe think he was born 102 BC.
No one really knows for sure but most people use seem to think
it's 100 BC so I'm just going to use that date.
And he was born to one of the high class families or Jens of
ancient Rome called the Julie or Juliai.
They were believed to be descended from the goddess
Venus. Which in some of the sources I
read is just like weirdly accepted as facts.
Which was. Descended from Venus.
Yeah, I'm like, I didn't know Venus was a real person or like
just existed. I don't know.
That's interesting. Maybe she was.
Maybe, I don't know. And then people like turned her
into a mythical maybe being. Julius's father, also named
Gaius Julius Caesar, was a Prater or a prater.
A prater who governed the province of Asia and his mother,
Euralia. Yeah, I don't know.
Sorry, all of Asia. Yeah, I didn't really look too
much into his father. No, that's OK.
Yeah, that was what his. That's what he's said to have
been. And I think because, you know,
this was still when Rome was like the big empire, they pretty
much ruled like the entire world.
So I think they owned parts of Asia, Asia, or like, so they
owned parts of Asia and he was like in charge of overseeing it.
I see. And his mother, Euralia Kata,
was of noble birth. However, despite all of this,
his parents were apparently not rich, influential, or notably
distinguished, I guess. Anyway, this might have also
been because they're part of the popular political party where
they believed in more rights for the lower class and the
democratization of government, which wasn't really a popular
belief in Rome. Even though it's the popular
political party, it wasn't the popular political party, if you
get what I mean. I don't know.
It's confusing because it's called popular, but it wasn't
popular. Anyway, when Julius or Caesar
was just 16, his father passed away and Caesar became the new
head of household. And believing that becoming a
priest would bring the most benefit to his family, Caesar
managed to have himself nominated as a new high priest
of Jupiter, which was a religion in Rome at the time.
Oh, interesting. But as a priest, Caesar was
expected to marry a noble woman. And I didn't mention this
earlier, but since he was a boy, Caesar had been promised to bury
a woman named Kasusha, but he had to break off the engagement
when he became a priest because while she was rich, she was not
noble. So Caesar instead married a
woman named Cornelia, who was the daughter of a high profile
man of the popular political party that was the same as his
parents. So he's married, but soon after
a Roman ruler named Sula declared himself dictator and
began a systemic purge of his enemies and particularly those
who held to the popular ideology, which Caesar being one
of them. So Caesar was forced to flee
Rome, but then his sentence was lifted, so he came back.
But then Sula tried to have Caesar divorce his wife.
I'm not really entirely sure why, and Caesar refused.
So then he was stripped of his position as a priest and all of
his money was taken away. So without any other options,
Caesar was forced to join the army.
How could he just determine himself dictator He just like
showed. Up Rome.
In Rome. Like.
I guess and from there's like people who are part of like the
Senate and they just get really high and for some reason are
able to like declare themselves as dictator and then they just
aren't dictator until essentially they die, which I
which usually people kill them. So they're not usually dictators
for long. Wait, so was dictator, was
dictator like an official position?
It wasn't like a negative term. It was like an actual.
I think it was like. An almost an actual thing.
Like they called themselves the dictator of Rome.
You know of this empire? OK, got it.
So, but emperors came later. So first there's dictators and
then it became emperors. OK.
Anyway, so Caesar was a great soldier.
I don't think anyone's surprised in me saying that he'd even
risen to the ranks of being voted a Colonel, but you might
be surprised to hear that he actually wasn't a soldier for
long, at least at that point in his life.
Shortly after becoming one, Emperor Sola died.
I think he was murdered. So Caesar said peace out to the
army for now and became a lawyer instead.
Wow. So during this time in his life,
either 74 or 76 BC when Caesar was 26 years old, he and his
wife Cornelia had a child, a daughter named Julia.
However, five years later, after Julia was born in 9 BC, Cornelia
passed away. Some people believe in
childbirth, but no one really knows for certain.
And two years after Cornelia died, Caesar married a wealthy
woman named Pompia, who was actually the granddaughter of
Emperor Asola, who had driven him out.
That's kind of funny. Yeah.
The guy that like ruined his life.
Yeah, and then he married the granddaughter.
Wow. Yeah, but then he divorced her a
couple of years later when she cheated on him with another man.
Damn. Yeah, but don't.
Believe that was a thing in ancient, Yeah.
What divorce? The same, the same, the same
stuff happened. I know.
Seriously. Yeah, but don't feel too sad for
see through though because he was also a serial adulterer
himself so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on.
He was constantly sleeping around with plenty of people's
wives, and so I also don't think he twelled too much on the fact
that he was getting a divorce, or that he had been cheated on
for that matter, because he'd have been recently promoted.
Around that same time, in 62 BC, he'd been elected as a new
governor of Spain, and he sailed there the very next year.
Oh wow. I think we're having our first
governor of Spain on the pot. I think, yeah, definitely.
We did have an ambassador to Spain, but this is totally
different. Wait, who was that ambassador to
Spain? That was George Vilier.
Oh, yes, yes. Well, I'm not going to go too
much into his time in Spain, but while he was there, he married a
woman named Calpurnia, who was the daughter of a wealthy and
powerful popular senator, like the same political party his
parents had been in. And he also married his daughter
Julia, who was now either 15 or 17 years old, to a man named
Pompey the Great, back in Rome to solidify an alliance with
that man Pompey. OK, so he's on his third wife
now. Yes, so he's on his third wife
and I'll go to a description of Caesar at this point in time.
He's said to be tall, a real ladies man.
Yeah, he's constantly getting woman, especially women who are
already married like I mentioned.
And he was also bald and really insecure about it apparently.
Apparently he combed over what hair he had to hide, but he was
also fashionable and well manicured.
He collected gems, statues and antique paintings, and he was
also said to be lenient and did not hold grudges.
OK, that's good. Wow it's so crazy that like even
back then people liked antiques. I know like there was antiques
that. Blows my mind.
What the hell. Oh my God.
But someday people will say that about this time period, it was
so long ago. I know.
I don't see how it came, is it? I sometimes do wonder, like wow,
will life really be like Dune or something?
Because like, what the heck would 2000 years from now be
like? Maybe it is like Dune.
Imagine maybe anyway. Yeah.
So anyway, moving on, though, Caesar was in Spain.
He, Pompey and a man named Marcus Krassus effectively ruled
Rome at the time. They're like the three most
powerful men in the empire. And Caesar is more so as like a
console and proposing legislation because he was in
Spain. He wasn't like directly in Rome
where the hub of the empire was. And I didn't really explain how
that came to be, but because it's just so much.
So if you want to know more, just read up about it.
But Caesar was a very powerful man at this time, essentially,
especially after his conquest of Gaul and the later death of yes,
cool and the later death of Crassus in 54 BC.
And the same year Crassus died, one of the three men that were
like ruling Rome, Caesar's daughter Julie Ilya died in
childbirth, which effectively cut all ties between Pompey and
Caesar. And because Caesar was in Rome
at the time, Pompey had become the de facto military and
political ruler, essentially like the dictator, and as such,
Pompey had the Senate strip. Caesar evolves power and titles,
making him just a regular private citizen, so that if
Caesar were to return to Rome, he'd be tried for all the things
he did as a Councilman, which would be like war crimes
essentially. Yeah, I don't know.
And rather than flee, Caesar and his troops instead crossed from
Gaul into Italy like Rome, and marched, well, crossed from Gaul
into Italy and marched on the city of Rome and to Pompey.
This was seen as a declaration of war.
And so this then began the Roman Civil War.
Oh yeah, How old? Is he at this point?
He. Is so this is.
He's probably like 2452. He was about to be a
grandfather. He's never mind.
He's 5222. Wow.
Yeah, just close to 24. Wow.
Okay, he's lived a lot of life so far.
Yeah, and I'm not going to go too much into the details of the
romance of what works. Again, it's a lot.
So please read up on some of the sources that I listed.
If you're really interested, I encourage you to read anything
by Barry Strauss. I totally recommend him.
But all I'm going to say is that during this war, a man's named
Mark Anthony operated as Caesar's second in command.
And I'm telling you this just so you remember that Marc Anthony
is like they worked together. And they were roommates.
Yeah. So just telling you that like,
Mark Ante is in the background. He's around for all of this,
pretty much. And that also at one point in 48
BC, Pompey's forces were defeated in Greece.
And so Pompey escaped the battlefield and fled to Egypt
and Caesar. Pompey.
Followed after Pompey, and so Caesar arrived in Egypt in 48 BC
at again 52 years of age. But by the time Caesar arrived,
days after Pompey arrived, Pompey was already dead.
Yeah, so he'd been. Killed.
Sorry, I shouldn't laugh. What happened?
This is ancient times like this is.
I know and not too. Soon or anything, Pompey had
been killed almost as soon as he stepped foot onto the shore of
Egypt by two military commanders.
And why? Because they'd been hired by
King Ptolemy of Egypt, who was then 13 years with old, and his
advisors. And they did this because they
heard of Caesar's victory over Pompey and believed that he
would be a valuable ally in their civil war that they were
fighting against Queen Cleopatra.
And they thought that Caesar would be grateful and give them
a reward for killing Pompey. And when Caesar arrived, he was
not grateful and did not give their reward when Ptolemy sent
Caesar Pompey's head and ring. Apparently Caesar wept and
denounced his murder. And to the recently exiled Queen
Cleopatra, this looked like an open door to allyship because
Caesar obviously didn't think favorably of Ptolemy, who she
was fighting a civil war against, and so she wanted meet
this mysterious Roman man, Caesar.
But who is this mysterious Egyptian queen, Queen Cleopatra?
Who is she? I don't know, no.
So when Alexander the Great time without naming a successor in
323 BC, so about 220 years before the birth of Caesar, his
Kingdom which extended as far as Egypt was broken into parts and
divided amongst his generals. And Egypt was given to a man
named Ptolemy, the first to rule.
And the Ptolemaic family would then go on to rule Egypt for the
next 300 ish years. And Cleopatra.
Cleopatra Patra, the 7th was part of the Stine scene.
Cleopatra the 7th is the one that we're covering today.
That's one of the subjects, yeah.
I didn't even know she was the 7th.
Yeah, so she's the 7th. So she was born in either 70 or
69 BC. No one really knows for sure.
She was one of Ptolemy the 12th. 6 children actually. 1 of
Cleopatra's sisters is actually also called Cleopatra.
Oh, that's so weird. For some reason, Cleopatra's a
very common name of that family, and same with Ptolemy.
You're going to hear the name Ptolemy so much in this episode,
it's kind of crazy. So you'll have to really keep
them in check because there's like a million Ptolemies.
You don't hear Cleopatra much anymore.
I know, let's bring back the name Cleopatra.
So it's not. Your Cleo?
What is Cleo? Cleo's.
Like kind of show short for Cleopatra I think.
Or is that Clementine? Is that a nickname for
Clementine? I don't think so.
I don't know, it could just like some people are just named Cleo,
so maybe it's not even short for anything.
Yeah. Anyway, anyway.
Anyway, so it's not certain who Cleopatra's mother was, as her
father's wife, Cleopatra the 5th, was supposedly dead by the
time she was born. She may have been alive, but
there was literally no record of her past 68 BC.
And Cleopatra, the one we're covering, was born in 69 or 70.
So some see the historians theorize that Cleopatra may have
been the child of Concamine, just as her father had been.
But at the same time, no one ever really questioned
Cleopatra's legitimacy, not even the roamers, the Romans, who
definitely would have. So we really don't know who her
mom is or was. That's so odd to not know who
her mother is. Yeah.
And part of that is because, which I'll mention later is
because of the burning down of the library of Alexandra.
So their history and their writings and everything about
the royal family and pretty much everybody was like burned and
destroyed. So we have no record.
Oh, OK, so she knew so. Much of this stuff she probably
did, but we don't know. Yeah.
Is it possible that her mother,
or like her father's wife at least, was actually still alive?
She. Could have been, she might have
still been alive. We just have no record of her
still being alive past a certain year.
So she might have. And though they adopted the
titles, iconography and traditions of the Egyptians and
of the Pharaoh's past, their official language was Greek,
like you mentioned, Kelly. So just keep that in mind.
So wait, wait, so her family, they were just kind of given the
Kingdom? Yeah, so because Alexander died
without any heirs, the empire is broken and divided amongst his
like generals, and one of his generals was Ptolemy, and
Cleopatra is a descendant of Ptolemy who was given.
OK. And Ptolemy wasn't Egyptian?
No. OK, got it.
Yeah, so Cleopatra's dad was supposedly very greedy.
He was LED astray by luxury and ruled rather poorly and spent
most of his times holding flute competitions in the palace where
he would be against others. And at one point in 58 BC, when
Cleopatra was 12, he was exiled by the people of Alexandria, and
his eldest daughter Bernice the 4th, was made queen in his
stead. Did you go to Alexandria?
Yeah. Wow.
How was it? It was nice.
I really like it. But obviously, like, what I saw
as Alexandra is not what they saw as Alexander.
Yeah. You know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Did you go to any like ancient places though?
Yeah, we went to a bunch of like temples and altars and tombs and
all the ones that are still around or that people have
found. And we also went to the pyramids
and the Sphinx. Wow.
Crazy. If you guys want to see pictures
of my trip, go to Katie Ander on Instagram.
You look so cute, Kate. Kate was in like a big hat.
Yeah. Oh, you looked so worldly in
glamorous. It was so cool.
Well, it was believed that Cleopatra may have accompanied
her father into exile during this time.
However, Ptolemy soon came back three years later and he had his
daughter Bernice executed in himself, restored as king.
Oh my God. I know his family's greatly.
I know. And that really is Game of
Thrones. Very, there's also a lot of like
internal fighting within the family, which we'll get into
later, but I also didn't include a lot of it also like there's a
lot of siblings killing each other for various.
Reasons. Oh my gosh.
Well, fun fact actually. Ptolemy was actually aided by
Caesar and Pompey's forces and money at this time.
They were friends. They were still like on good
terms at this time to restore the throne, and Cesar actually
wanted to be general governor of Egypt, but the Roman Senate
wouldn't let him. So Cesar already had a
relationship with Cleopatra's family long before they ever
actually met. Interesting.
But anyway, so As for Ptolemy, his reign did not last for long
as he died shortly after regaining the throne from
disease in 51 BC. And so after he died, 18 year
old Cleopatra and her 10 year old brother Ptolemy the 13th
were then made joint rulers of Egypt as well as spouses.
What? Oh no.
It's also very Game of Thrones. Egyptian pharaoh thing.
I don't know, blame them. They were just following the Way
of the Lands when in Egypt I guess.
Yeah, so she's 18. Yeah, so she's. 18 and she's
like betrothed to her 13 year old brother.
That's so embarrassed. Old brother.
Yeah, crazy. Take a drink.
Yeah, take a drink. I don't think we've done
siblings. No, no, that's a no this.
Is this is yo Dick? Well, do you think anything?
I guess we could wait to hear the story, but like, did
anything actually happen? I don't think so, no, I don't
think anything happens between her and her brother husband.
They probably were super embarrassed about it.
Well, it's because this was so kind of common for them, because
they were just, even though they were Greek, they really want to
adapt themselves to like the Egyptian way of ruling.
And for centuries, Egyptian Pharaohs have been marrying like
within the family. So they just thought that this
is what Egyptian Pharaohs did. So I don't know.
Seems like they don't have the same like family dynamics and
like attitudes that we have today.
Like even just like about her dad executing his own child like
it that just wouldn't happen. That's.
No. We have boundaries up that
prevent stuff like that. That would.
Like they didn't. I mean, they don't have Jesus
yet. So.
Serious about Jesus? True.
It's true. It's true.
Yeah, that is true. Well anyway, Cleopatra at this
time is described as beautiful, captivating, persuasive, smart,
she knew 9 languages and she was a real woman of the people.
She was apparently the only one of her family, not just like her
immediate family, but the whole Ptolemaic ancestry, to have ever
learned the Egyptian language. Wow.
And yeah, and reading about her, she really reminds me of
Princess Diana. She's very popular amongst the
people. So popular, so much in fact,
that her brother Ptolemy was jealous of that fact, and very
jealous. And in 48 BC, only about
3:00-ish years since getting the throne, him and Cleopatra,
Ptolemy formed a faction against her and tried to depose her as
Queen. And Cleopatly, yeah, he's like,
12 or 13 at this point in time. He also had advisors that were
like, you know, what to do, so they might be at fault.
So Cleopatra was forced to flee to Syria.
But then she soon organized her own army, and a civil war
erupted soon after. And this is the civil war that
Caesar walks into while he's on his hunt for a copy.
So she's against her brother? Yeah, wow, siblings fighting
against each other. I I love that people rallied
behind their queen. And she would have just been
like just the queen. But apparently according to the
laws at the time, a queen had to have like a Co Regent.
She couldn't just rule by herself so that's why she's
paired with her brother. But like rightfully, it should
have gone to just her. Yeah, I mean, he's too young
anyway. I know, crazy.
So instead of simply just sending letters back and forth,
they're talking through intermediaries.
Because she didn't trust either to not be caught by her brother,
Cleopatra set up a date and time for her and Caesar to secretly
talk face to face because she, you know, wanted to talk to him
to potentially go against her brother and have him as an ally
in the civil war. And Caesar, intent on ending the
civil war in Egypt, accepted. He had seen what a civil war had
done to grow when he fought Pompey and how that ended and he
didn't want the same to happen in Egypt.
So Cleopatra apparently dressed in all her best clothes and
jewelry and was taken by small boat into the city of Alexandria
as she was kept out of it by the time by her brother's forces.
So then she was smuggled into the palace where Caesar was
staying. She was either tied inside of a
bedding sack or rolled up inside a carpet.
I don't really know sources theory, but either way, she was
able to safely reach Caesar and immediately he was taken with
her. He thought she was charming,
eloquent, and above all, alluring.
He was also impressed by her cutting strategy and her
encourage to sneak into the castle.
Historians don't know the exact date of when they first met,
however, they do know that it was before dawn when their
conversation went down. The early hour was notable
because the Caesar had the king Ptolemy, her brother, awoken and
brought to his chambers. Ptolemy did as was requesting,
came to Caesar for him to find Cleopatra there.
And he was like, what? Like he was really enraged.
He's like, what's going on? Is Caesar going to betray me?
Did he already like, why is Cleopatra here?
But instead of deposing Ptolemy in favor of Cleopatra, Caesar
told Ptolemy that according to the Egyptian custom, the Roman
people had guardianship over them.
And since Caesar was the dictator of Rome, now that
Pompey was dead, he granted Egypt to both Ptolemy and
Cleopatra dress as his father willed it.
So basically just telling them like, hey, you're gonna be Co
rulers. Just accept it, you know, like,
this is what your father wanted, be Co rulers.
And I'm. And they're like Peter wrote, so
I'm telling you what to do. Yeah.
So Cleopatra was. And is that true?
Like? Is it true Egypt was Was Egypt
just like part of the Roman Empire?
It was like part of it in a way. Like it was, it wasn't like
fully a part of it. Like it wasn't annexed by them.
It's kind of like, OK, it's not like Hawaii in the United
States. It's more like Puerto Rico in
the United States, you know, like something like that or like
Guam, you know. Interesting.
Analogy, yeah. Yeah, like it's kind of a part
of the Empire, but it's not like fully part of the Empire yet.
They're kind of like you don't do anything without our
permission. Yeah.
But you are. Specially especially after
Caesar helps to restore Ptolemy to the throne.
Before Rome had way more of a foothold in Egypt than it did
before, but it still had a foothold there prior.
OK. OK yeah, so now everybody was
happy with Caesar's idea, damely, Ptolemy and also his
advisors. They wanted to kill Caesar in
Cleopatra and Caesar found out about this and killed one of the
King's advisors. And after that, an all out
attack was launched against Caesar's men and Alexandria in
this fight. This was actually when the
Library of Alexandria, quote UN quote, burned down the Ptolemy.
Ptolemy had blockaded Caesar's fleet in the Wharf and some of
his soldiers, Caesar soldiers, set fire to some of the Egyptian
strips to free some of the room up in the Wharf.
But the fire spread to the docks and then to the library.
However, most historians believe that the library actually
suffered minimal damage or was not completely destroyed by
Caesar's fires, despite what many people believe.
Like if you look it up, most like everybody believes said it
was Caesar and this war that burnt down the library of
Alexandra. Like they're the ones to blame.
But actually the burning of Alexandria.
I did like some side research. Sorry, fun fact, the actual
burning of Alexandria that would destroy it forever would not be
until 642 AD when Alexander was captured by the Arab army of
Khalif Umar and they burned down the library of Alexander.
Why did they do that? Well, they said that a lot of
what was in the library wasn't like it didn't align with their
religious beliefs, so they burned it down.
I don't know if you know the answer to this but like is it
actually like very significant and tragic that it was burnt?
Like worst serious? I'm guessing yes.
It's really bad that everything was lost because like, again,
like we did lose so much about Cleopatra and her family and
almost everything about like Egypt essentially.
Like we don't really know a lot of history about Egypt because
of this, because everything that was about their history was
pretty much like in the museum. So, so many records were burned.
But also the Library of Alexandria was part of like a
museum as well as a university. And so that burned down as well.
So all of the records that they had regarding like any math
advancements or scientific advancements and stuff like that
was also burned. So potentially if it hadn't
burned, who knows where we might have been scientifically or
mathematically or like where we would be in terms of
advancements because of that, you know?
Wow. Damn, yeah.
Maybe it's good to slow it down though, you know?
I don't, maybe it would be too far advanced.
You know AI, Yeah. Yeah, slow it down, I.
Know I feel like we almost need like another reset, you know
like let's. Burn down the meta server, yeah.
Seriously. Anyway, anyway, going back to 48
BC, presumably at this point in time Caesar and Cleopatra began
a romantic relationship. And how How old are they both at
this point? Like 23.
So she is. So he's about 52 and she's 21.
Wow. Yeah.
So big age. She's like really young or
anything. It's an age difference, but you
know, not the worst. But really, I mean it, it's so
much better than being with your 10 year old brother.
Yeah, yeah. Now, like historians don't
really know exactly who came on to who or who initiated
relationship. Popular belief is that it was
Cleopatra's idea, but I personally have a hard time
accepting that fact as like the gospel truth.
And I'll tell you why for stars, because we don't have
Cleopatra's Diaries. She might have had one, but
again, it might have burned with the Library of Alexandria.
So we don't know. And we don't really know a lick
about her thoughts and feelings or motivations.
And we don't really know anything about Caesar as well.
Like, he did write various memories throughout his memoirs
throughout his life, but they were quite dry and documented
very little about his personal relationships.
It was very much like facts. I did this.
This happens, blah blah blah blah, you know?
I feel like so many of the men we've covered on this podcast,
that's how their Diaries have been.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's like, oh, that's cute. They kept a diary, but then all
they did was write like I ate today.
Yeah, That is pretty much, I think in like all of Caesar's
writings through his whole life, he only wrote one sentence about
Cleopatra and it was to say that she was a loyal ally to Rome and
that's it. What?
Yeah, it's not romantic at. All I know it's considering like
the romance that they had that's so like minuscule to say about
her. And so because we don't really
have anything from Cleopatra and Caesar themselves.
Most everything we know about them are from secondary sources
like Plutarch or the guy with a long name that I mentioned
earlier in this episode when I was listening my sources.
So we don't really know anything about them personally because
the second secondary sources didn't know them personally.
They were born like centuries later and they got their
information from people who were alive at the time.
But the people who were alive at the time who wrote were heavily
biased against Caesar and Cleopatra, but mostly Cleopatra.
Most of the primary sources were written by Romans who hated her.
They hated her like they seriously hated her,
particularly a man named Cicero, who I won't really go into, but
he was her biggest hater and he wrote a lot.
So he's like almost one of the number one sources there is.
So he thought she was like an evil, cunning seductress who was
a floozy whore and like manipulator, like a succubus.
And he he blamed her for his eventual death.
Like spoiler alert. And so because Cicero and all
these Romans writings who hated Cleopatra, like are the only
ones that survived, people take those as the gospel truth and
then perpetuate them into the secondary sources like Plutarch,
like 100 years later in ancient times.
And historians today still take those as gospel truth and
perpetuate that as well. And some historians like to flip
the story on its head by saying like, oh, but Cleopatra was just
being like a girl boss by manipulating him.
But like, as positively as you like to spin it, there's still
perpetuating lie that she's like this evil whore pretty much, you
know, And well, I can see that politics may have been a
motivation for Cleopatra engaging in a relationship with
Caesar and vice versa. Like, after all, Cleopatra was
really rich. She was like the richest person
alive at this time. And Caesar did have a lot of
debt, partially because of all the antiques he was buying.
And Caesar was the ruler of the most powerful empire on earth at
the time and thus could offer a lot of safety and protection as
an ally. And so that could have been a
motivation. But I think it's kind of
limiting to say that that was like the only reason, because I
think that feeds into this myth that's been perpetuated
basically since Cleopatra was even alive.
And so the myth is in modern terms, kind of like it was APR
relationship. Not that there was APR
relationship. Not for the, not for.
Not that it was, but not for the right, not.
For the right reasons, like she was just manipulating him with
her sexuality to get him to do what he wanted and enslaved him
to her desires and like she was just using him essentially.
And that's the lie that's been told by the people who were
alive at the time, who were Romans who hated her.
And then the secondary sources of the people who were born,
like, hundreds of years later, they took those writings of
gospel truth, and they perpetuate that lie.
And then historians said, hey, they don't have any other, you
know, sources to use. So they think, oh, that, you
know, like this is what we have of Cleopatra.
It must be true. So this is who Cleopatra was.
But I think it kind of removed something from Cleopatra's
character to say she was just in it for the power and security
and nothing else. It kind of removes her agency to
say that she's like kind of forced into the relationship in
a sense. Like she was forced into the
relationship with her brother and then in another relationship
later on. And for the total make
generations, like women were constantly forced into these
political marriages. And so I think just to force
Cleopatra into another one is kind of diminishing her will as
a queen in a way. Yeah.
Anyway, what else? What else do you know about
their story? I guess, yeah.
Well, I'll get into that. Well, all I have to say is that
I have my own biases and I'm a homos romantic.
So kind of as I said in the James and George episode, I like
to believe that maybe there was more to just convenience and
political alliances there. Maybe not love, but maybe love.
I don't know. But don't take my word for it.
Like I could also be wrong. So let me know what you think at
the end of this episode. But just know that many
historians believe that Cleopatra went to Cesar
initially, this seduced him, and she seemed to have been as
successful. So, yeah, So what we do know,
like I said again, like we don't really know much, but what we do
know is that even though there was a war going on still between
Ptolemy and Cleopatra, she and Cesar would host parties
together and cruise together on the Nile on her state March.
Wow. So are they married or are they
just kind of courting each other?
Who's kind of courting? Because again, he is still
married. Oh oh.
Yeah, so he's still with 3rd. He's still with his third wife,
Cornelia, and she's also technically still married to her
brother. Yeah, but whatever, OK.
But Speaking of her brother. They're cruising around them.
Yeah, cruising on the Nile. And Speaking of the Nile and
also Speaking of her brother, in January 47th BC, Cesar engaged
in a naval battle against Ptolemy on the river.
And during this battle, the Egyptians were forced to flee
and tell me Cleopatra's brother husband drowned and died.
Oh. My God, that's sad.
That's yeah, that's convenient. I know, I know.
Kind of finishes off that story nicely.
So is the Civil War over? Yeah, so the civil war is now
over. Nice.
So after this Caesar placed Cleopatra on the throne
alongside one of her other brothers because again she had
to have a Co region and this was another Ptolemy but this time
the 14th and Cleopatra was also married to marry this brother
also. And how old is this brother?
Is he? Even younger.
I think he he was even younger. I think he was like 10 also like
Oh my. God, she can't catch a break.
She had two younger brothers and she married both of them.
Oh my gosh. Anyway, Caesar could have left
after that. He didn't really need to hang
around Egypt, considering the civil war was over and he
accomplished what he wanted to accomplish.
He could have really returned to Rome as its rightful dictator,
especially since there were enemies rising up in his
absence, but instead he hung around for a while.
Supposedly they were inseparable at this point in time and spent
weeks together on her barge on the Nile.
They would spend like 3 to 9 weeks at a time just sailing.
Wow, yeah. And sounds fun.
Yeah, and I know it sounds, it sounded nice.
I was like, yo, like I did a river cruise on the Nile, but
like on a like a barge that was like a royal, like apparently
it's pretty much a palace that was just floating on the river
like a palace. I was like, oh, I wish.
Oh. Well, this makes me think they,
they had a real passionate relationship because you're
right. Like, why wouldn't he just go
back to Rome? He he would have been like, OK,
cool, I have an ally here. Yeah, the war's over.
I'm going back. Like why would he just stay?
Well, one of the reasons he might not have wanted to leave
is because at this point in time, Cleopatra's actually
pregnant with their child. Oh my God.
So they were having sex. Yeah.
I didn't know that was happening for some reason.
I know I. Know schedulers?
Oh my. God, and they probably like it
probably took them a while to figure out someone was pregnant
too. Like I'm sure they did like
followed the moon and everything, but like it probably
took longer. So she's probably like pretty
far along, right? Exactly.
So they've been fucking sorry since they've been fucking since
like while the war was going on, you know?
Oh. My God.
Well, you needed, you know, an escape.
Yeah. That's crazy.
Yeah, well, Ptolemy the 15th was born on June 23rd, 47 BC and in
some sources it says that Caesar was there for the birth and left
for Rome shortly after, and in others it says that he'd been
gone for months at this point. So I don't really know what
exactly to be exactly to believe.
But either way, those Caesar did not officially acknowledge
Ptolemy as his own. He legally couldn't because he
was married and that would be like a crime in Rome.
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, he did.
I can't believe. Oh, sorry.
What? No.
What you're gonna say? I was gonna say I can't believe
they used this name again. I know.
I know there's so many taller I swear.
I'm sorry, I keep like bringing it up and I'm sorry, Mel, I know
you didn't watch it, but it's so Game of Thrones.
How's the dragon with like? Everyone.
A gone. A gone.
Yeah. Yeah, literally.
I think this has to be an inspiration for it.
It has to be. And the fact that Daenerys, I
feel like they also came from somewhere that seemed
geographically like Egypt in a way.
Yeah, Yeah. Anyway.
Well anyway, so then, so although he couldn't officially
acknowledge Ptolemy as his own because he legally couldn't, he
did allow the child to take his name, which is not something you
would do for a kid that isn't your own.
So it's a little suspicious of some people.
So the child's full name is Ptolemy Caesar, or Caesar, Carry
on as everybody called him. Wow.
And I'll probably just call him Cesarean for the rest of it
because calling him Ptolemy is just like, there's too many.
It's it'll confuse. Me wait are like C sections like
named after Caesar? Many people believe so, because
apparently it's believed that Caesar was the first person to
be born via C-section. Maybe.
What? That's so crazy.
Yeah, that's crazy. You knew.
That off the top of your. Head like that.
Well, I had heard that too. I didn't know he was born
there's. I know it was like him, but I
knew there's. Some connection to it, so yeah,
so. Maybe, maybe it's just like
during his time that, like, practice started happening,
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, anyway, so his kids caesarean and that's, you know,
C-section, so caesarean. So Cleopatra was also very vocal
about the fact that Cesar was the father of Caesarean, and
later in life a lot of people remark that Caesarean very much
looked like Caesar. So I don't think it's really up
for debate whether or not Caesar was the father.
It's like a fact, pretty much. I I mean, what did people think?
That the kids father was her brother?
Yeah. Yeah, like that's the only other
option I guess. You would if you were her in
that position. You would be vocal about that
too. You're like, it's not my 10 year
old kid brother. However, the historian Nicholas
de Damascus, who was alive during the 1st century, which is
after, you know, Caesar and Clet Patrick, say that Julius Caesar
actually disowned Cesarean in his will.
But there are no sources or texts that support this claim,
and many historians doubt that Caesar would go to such lengths
by this thought to include that in 46 BC.
So Caesar had been gone to Rome for some time.
He had also been elsewhere, just, like, fighting little
battles that had popped up because people have, like,
started to pop up to climb, you know, power in Rome.
And he had to quell that. So he'd been in Rome for a
little bit of time. Caesar invited Cleopatra and
their son to travel to Rome, and Cleopatra accepted.
Nice. Yeah.
So many sources say that Cleopatra took her brother
husband with her to Rome. So I don't know who was ruling
Egypt at this time in their stead.
It was when someone Cleopatra trusted to not revolt and take
over while they were gone. Or maybe she figured that since
she had Caesar wrapped around her finger, or like since she
was with him and he was one of the most powerful men in the
world at the time, that no one would dare cross her.
But either way, she went to Rome with her brother and her son.
Wow. And again, like in case you
forgot, Caesar is still married at this time to a woman in
Calpurnia. So when Kelly Patrick came to
Rome, she didn't actually stay with Caesar directly, but
instead she stayed in one of his luxurious villas.
Wow. Now despite though.
How did she even get the message?
How are they doing mail from Rome?
I don't know. I don't know if people crazy.
I don't think people have invented, I guess, through the
Mediterranean. It's not that far, I suppose,
from Italy to Egypt. Yeah.
Through boat maybe, because you don't have to go like all the
way around Africa, you could just go through the
Mediterranean. So maybe it's not as difficult
as we think, but still probably would take a while.
Now despite the fact that Rome at this time had very strict
bigamy laws and the fact that they were kept apart in
different houses, Caesar and Cleopatra were very late,
apparently very open about the fact that they were lovers.
Caesar granted her the highest honors and awards.
He even had a gold plated statue of her be placed in the temple
of Venus. Jedidricks, his supposed
ancestor. And Caesar at this time even
tried to have a law passed that would allow a man to take many
wives. And many believe he tried to get
that law passed so he could marry Cleopatra.
But for some reasons, I don't think he was able to succeed.
I think in part because he wasn't yet fully the political
dictator. He was a dictator in some ways,
but he still had to, like, get some things past the Senate
because the Senate still existed.
And he was also very unfavorable among amongst pretty much
everybody else. And also because Caesar wasn't
really around at this point in time to campaign all that
heavily for his idea, because he wasn't really in Rome all that
much. Not just because he was with
Cleopatra, but because he was actually fighting another war.
At this point in time. Pompey's sons had risen up and
joined a resistance against Caesar and retaliation for their
father's death, even though Caesar wasn't really the one at
fault. But whatever.
And so Caesar had to go to Spain and then Portugal to lead armies
against them during pretty much all of 45 BC.
And during this time, Caesar adopted his great nephew
Augustus, and Caesar named him as his heir.
Wow. And so it's like July and
August, Yeah. And during this time, when
Caesar was off fighting, it was really that Cleopatra and her
son went back to Egypt, but then returned to Rome when he did,
like when the fighting was over, he came back.
So by 44 BC, Caesar had defeated his enemies abroad, the sons of
Pompey, and declared himself as a complete dictator of Rome.
However, because of this, he created many enemies for himself
domestically. People didn't like that.
No, according to Plutarch, a Greek philosopher who was alive
during the 1st century, a seer had.
Attacked Heaven's Bee. Yeah, another Hunger Games.
We just talked about them last week as well.
I think that was last week or was that the week before, 2
weeks ago? That was two weeks.
It was a trivia question, but yeah.
Anyway, so a seer had apparently warned Caesar that he would be
harmed on the Eyes of March, which basically means the middle
of the month, which was the 15th.
And Yep, well, March 15th, 44 BC came and it did not start great.
First, Caesar and his wife Caperna had a bad dream.
I don't really know about Cleopatra.
If she had a bad dream, she might have.
And then on his way to the theater of Pompey for a Senate
meeting, Caesar passed the same seer who had given him that
ominous fortune and joked essentially like, well, the Eyes
of March have come and like nothing's happened.
And the C replied, I, they have come, but they are not gone.
And after that, Caesar entered the Senate meeting where he was
then stabbed 23 times. What is this common?
Last words, yes I would say so, but.
It's in the it's in the Shakespeare play, yeah.
And most people know this but it.
Just so happened. But yeah.
Just happens if you read it or not in school.
I did. If you haven't read it, you
probably wouldn't know. I was made to read Julius
Caesar, but I didn't have to read the Cleopatra and Mark
Antony 1. Same.
Well, we're both a Mr. Cordamont, right?
Yeah, what now? I well, I read Cleopatra and
Mark Antony in college, so we just like skipped over all of
this, I think in my school district, but I'm not sure.
Maybe we did. Interesting.
Did you read no Shakespeare in high school or just like Roman
and Juliet? Oh, no, We read Shakespeare in
high school, but we read, yeah, Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet and
Macbeth. Interesting, for some reason in
my high school we only did Robbie and Juliet and Julius
Caesar oddly. We also did 12th night in my
grade. We never had.
To do 12th, we also did A Midsummer Night's Dream.
Anyway, yeah, so he just got stabbed. 23 times and this is
the famous line where he's like E2 brute, right?
Yeah, so his last words were like E2 brute or translated to
even you, my boy, or even you, Brutus, to a politician named
Marcus Brutus, who had been who had once been Caesar's close
friend. Damn, yeah.
That sucks. He's dead.
It was over like. They just didn't like that he
was the dictator. Like what?
Yeah, so they didn't like that he was dictator, and some people
also believe that. They didn't like that he was a
bigamist with Cleopatra also. But for some reason they were
like, yeah, let's just stab him. And they did.
What? OK this might be ignorant of me,
but why did they care? Like I it just doesn't seem to
me like they had that strict morals back then.
Like I'm surprised that they actually were very against that.
Or is that just ignorant of me? I think they had some codes of
conduct. Well, I guess this is Rome, I
guess. Yeah, I guess this is Rome, not
Egypt, where they were doing the sibling.
Yeah. But they didn't like that he was
like dictator. And he there's also other stuff
where he really kind of had a power trip and they didn't like
that as well. So they're like, we have to get
rid of him. OK, Yeah.
Do you think he was in the wrong or do you think they should have
done that? Like people say like, oh, he was
like a real dictator, but like everybody else was like a real
dictator. So I think no matter who was in
that position, they would probably act the same.
So I really don't think they were in the right.
And even. And even the people of Rome were
upset that Caesar had been killed.
And they were calling for the assassins to be, you know,
killed. And so the assassins had to
leave. And it was just this whole
thing. So a lot of people looked down
on Caesar's assassination. That's good.
Yeah. I guess.
Yeah. And anyway, so I think most
people know the story of Julius Caesar for the most part.
I mean, again, it's not like fully common knowledge, but what
people might not have known was that Cleopatra was in Rome at
the time of Caesar's assassination.
She was there with him. And yeah.
And so afterward, after he'd been killed, she actually stuck
around between a month to a couple months.
Historians don't really know for certain to try and get their son
Caesarean named as Caesar's heir.
But it's pretty much a futile fight 'cause even though
Cleopatra had some support and one of them was Mark Antony
actually, which I'll get into when I cover her and Mark
Antony, most people supported 18 year old Augustus, Caesar's
grand nephew as his heir, as was stipulated in his will.
So, you know, so it wasn't going to go to Caesarean.
Yeah, and he adopted Augustus, right?
Yeah, he had adopted Augustus and had even named him as his
heir, so you can't really fight what he had written in his will.
And he didn't have, he had a daughter, but she died, so he
didn't have any. Yeah.
So he had a daughter, but she's been dead for like years at this
point. Like almost a decade, if not
more. So did he not have any kids with
Calpurnia? No, he had no other children
with like California or his other wife.
Also, he might have had a couple other illegitimate kids with all
the other women he was sleeping with like before, but nobody
knows. Wow.
Yeah. And side note, also stipulated
in his will was that every Roman citizen received a substantial
stipend and that his gardens were given back to the city of
Rome. And I thought that was nice, so
I included that. That is really nice, yeah.
Every citizen got some money from Yeah.
Wow, I know. And I think that also endeared
the Roman citizens to Caesar, and so that's why they also
looked down upon his assassination.
My gosh, that's amazing. I know.
And so because Cleopatra wasn't able to name their son as Air,
she was forced to flee back to Egypt with her two year old son
in tow. And there's also a rumor at this
time. I'm not really sure how credible
because it's named in some sources but not in others.
It was believed that Cleopatra had apparently been pregnant
again with Caesar's child at this time.
And some Romans, namely that Cicero man that I named before
who really hated her, was nervous about it because while
Cesarean had no claim to being Caesar's heir, like absolutely
no claim, the second child had a better chance because he was
conceived on Roman soil. And that kind of changed some
things. But that would be like an
infant. I know so, but still.
But unfortunately it was all for not because the stress of his
assassination apparently caused her to miscarry, man.
Yeah. And I'm not going to go into too
much detail of what happens afterward in this story because
I want to save it for Mark Antony and Cleopatra episode,
which again, I hope to do next time.
I'm hope. Sorry for stretching it out.
Don't keep me, you guys. But I will add that shortly
after returning back to Egypt, Ptolemy the 14th, Cleopatra's
brother husband at this time died of poisoning and many
suspect it was done by Cleopatra or by on her behalf like by her.
Orders. And after his death, she then
made her son Caesarean her Co Regent of Egypt, even though he
was like two or three at the time.
But she doesn't have to marry him, right?
Yeah, she's not to marry her son.
No. OK.
Good, but that's. I mean, now she's basically the
only ruler. Yeah.
And the other ruler is her son, who she can, like, raise to
basically treat her as the queen, you know?
And Cleopatra also started the construction of the Caesarean
Temple in Alexandria, which was dedicated to Caesar.
Wow. That's pretty much it for
Cleopatra and Caesar. Sad, really dramatic ending.
I know with an assassination. Probably the most dramatic we've
heard. I mean we have had some end in
death but not being stabbed 23. 9 So that's.
That was really interesting. Oh my gosh, Kate, thanks for
doing all that research. I had a lot of fun doing it.
I hope you guys enjoyed it as well.
Yeah. I mean, I feel like I should
have known this stuff before, but I appreciate how you told it
in such a concise way. And to be honest, if like you
just like laid out all the stuff that I would have been
interested in in history class. I know like why, why in school
back in the day? Why wasn't it this fun?
I just think they focus, get it, they.
Focus way too much on like dates and just things that you have
to. Memorize like I didn't include
any of like the battles or when those happened, anything like
that. So that's kind of what makes
I'm, I'm a history major and I loved history in high school and
even college. But yeah, both of history was
just memorizing dates, and that's not the fun part of it,
you know? Yeah, I mean, history is all
just people, you know? Yeah, me and you guys.
And I feel like that's what's interesting is when you can
like, think of it, I think Kelly said it on the podcast one time.
Like we want history to be like a tabloid story or gossip.
Yeah, and this during its time was definitely a tabloid story.
Gossip 100%. Talking about them on the barge
and they're both married. Yeah, they had like a kid out of
wedlock. So crazy.
Well Kate, you are going to be in the driver's seat again next
week on the Patreon. Can you give us a hint about who
you are covering? Yes, so again, like I said, I
won't be doing Mark Antonine's Cleopatra next.
Sorry about that. But I have a extra special
episode that I think will be really fun and I think you guys
will enjoy. I am covering a pop star and a
relationship she had with a costar on ATV show they were on
together. Wow.
Like, that could be a couple people, yeah.
I know so. So different from the.
Very different. Way breaking it to modern times.
I like that about this show though.
I hope people do too. I think it's interesting.
Like I, I feel like there are some podcasts with like similar
concepts, but usually they stick in one lane.
But yeah, but like you said, Mel, like we're all just people.
And it's funny, like even 2000 years ago people were doing some
of the same things. Yeah, I mean some, some things
very different. But.
But some things never. Change.
So it's like, reassuring. Yeah, in a weird way.
I know there's like, weirdly some similar things.
Like I feel like that's not the first time that one of you has
said. But then she was pregnant and I
gasped. I don't know who else someone
else might have been. I don't even just like a couple
weeks ago when you mentioned like Lindsey Buckingham's
girlfriend got pregnant like. Oh, maybe as old as time.
Mary Shelley, She got pregnant, right?
Oh yeah, from an. Affair.
Yeah. Gosh, I forgot about that.
Well, thank you guys for listening.
Thank you for listening. And thank you, Kate.
We're excited for next weeks episode.
Me too. Do you want?
Do you want to sign off? Kate, yes, see you next week.
No. Wait, what do we usually say?
I usually use coffee whenever Kelly says.
Oh, and Oh yeah, and we'll get back together next week.
Bye. Is your heart filled with pain?
Shall I come back again? Tell me, dear heart you Lord.