Are You Lonesome Tonight? Do you miss me tonight?
Are you sorry? We drifted does your mate guys.
Welcome to another episode of significant lovers where Kellen
Mel, we are cousins and we've been doing this since 2018, you
might know us from I'm a Twilight podcast called another
vital Twilight. Hmm.
Now we do this, show about romance, love, heartbreak
couples. And this is a podcast for
anybody who. Someone recently said this, who
feels like Love Comes easier to everybody else but themselves.
Yeah, it's not true, honey. It's not true.
Nope. Even for the Rich and Famous.
Yep. For the hi Lisa.
This is the cated for the stylus for the you are and oh my gosh,
it's so hard for everybody. Nobody knows what they're doing
and this podcast has really made me feel a lot less alone in this
confusing life that we all have. I feel like I've just felt such
compassion for people. Yeah yeah I mean everyone about
people. Yeah.
Like if you ever feel like you're messy like people have
been Messier and if you've ever I feel like you just went
through the worst breakup. Ever, someone's been through
worse worst and survived. Yep, I'm excited.
I'm so excited for today. It feels like it's been a while.
I know. Yeah, yeah, one thing is a lot
of people have been getting a little bold telling us lately
about our voices. We just like for people or
three, I don't know. But it's weird because we did do
a podcast for years, another bite of Twilight and no one ever
said this to us. Maybe Twilight fans are just Mr.
Beebop I guess this podcast reaches more people.
So, and I'm really grateful for all the new listeners we have.
We have really awesome new peeps listening in on our patreon.
So thank you so much. But yeah, we have had a couple
of people criticizing us, so, you know, we don't need more of
it, we hear you, but this is who we are, this is just how we
sound. So I'm not going to Speech
language pathologist. I'm not going to change my
voice. It's just how we talk.
And yep. Yeah someone said I sometimes
talk with a baby voice. You know I just have a youthful
voice. Exacts, just me.
And that person also said, which this person said they, they said
they were very sweet. And I don't want research.
Which oh, that's the part. I'm going to focus on.
Ya did say that it sounds like I'm chewing on my Invisalign.
I don't tell them. Yeah but we've got a ton of
super sweet messages and nice reviews and if you guys like the
show, I'm going to be really appreciate review.
Yeah, but yeah it happens. But yeah did we don't need
anymore but of that we already know we hear you hopefully they
listen to this episode. Anyway anyways, so today's
episode it's a tough one it's a one that's been requested a few
times but it's quite Tragic who it is.
The love story of America's Prince JFK, jr.
The little boys, we think his father's casket, who could
forget him and his beautiful bride?
The mysterious Carolyn Bessette sorry, buddy, laughing, because
of the bravado, is very serious. No, but I'm really excited.
I have always wanted to learn more about the Kennedys and, but
I never really have feel like, I'd like to someday sit on the
beach with a big book about them.
Oh, yeah. But you're gonna teach me a lot,
do I know anything? So, obviously there's a lot of
conspiracy theories about the Kennedy family and doing this
episode. It made me really understand why
there's so many conspiracies because because I used to think
well it's a big family obviously a lot of tragedy is going to
happen. If you have that many people in
your family like bad stuff happens to everyone, but what
are the odds? Is that like all these people in
this one family, meet all these untimely tragic.
Yes, it's awful. Can't be a coincidence.
No, I mean, I bet there's like, like the JFK assassination.
Oh yeah, of course there's Atkins.
Like there's something Shady going on there.
Definitely. But for some reason that doesn't
intrigue me as much. I don't know.
It's like I didn't treats me, but I have never looked too far
into it. My family went to Dallas.
Is couple years ago. And the only thing we did there
like the one thing we had to do my brother was like we have to
go to where JFK was assassinated.
It was actually so boring, like kind of weird that they made a
hole like a tourist attraction. They have a plaque about it or
anything. Yeah, they have a whole museum.
Oh wow. Whoa.
Interested, a very sad thing. Anyway, so this episode I used
the following Source material America's reluctant Prince, the
life of John F. Kennedy jr.
By Steven M Gillen. This is the book.
I probably use the most, okay? And then another book called,
what remains A Memoir of Fate friendship and Love by Carolina
Roswell, who is John's cousin's wife?
So John's cousin named Anthony, he'll come up.
This episode. Okay, that's it.
John's like best friend. Cousin, kind of like me and
Kelly. Oh, and she is now a housewife
on like one of those Housewives shows, you guys Moe really, mmm,
what? And then, there's another book
called The Kennedy curse by Edward Klein, which I think is a
little controversial, but I just included.
There's a lot of salacious material and not as well.
Know how could you use them? Get out of here.
What three words would you use to describe this relationship?
I would say fire. Yuri.
Oh good. Looking nice and tragic ours.
Isn't it nice when they're good looking you know oh my God - all
the different think I mean this episode really made me realize
to like just how much people love good-looking people.
Yeah. Because like even true you guys
might know that like there's a lot of conspiracies about JFK
jr. Specifically with q and on and
how they believe that he's secretly Live and he's been a
trump supporter, all the giant a couple years ago.
They believed that he was like going to come out of a rally and
like backup Trump and I was like that's kind of cute that they
like really want to believe that and I think it's because he's so
good-looking. You're like yeah they're like we
really want this guy to be on our side because yeah this
All-American hunky guy. I think that's part of the
appeal to Kennedy's. Yeah.
Like and I think people want to have a good-looking politician.
Oh 100. That's why.
Oh my gosh. That's why the Kennedys were So
popular. And then when JFK and Jackie,
hit the scene, like they were the most stylish presidential
car. Yeah.
Anyone had ever seen, and like, this is the first time that,
like, they had TVs, right? Showing the presidential family.
Yeah. I mean, you have to be confident
and it is unfair, but people definitely prefer a competent
person. Who is also nice to look at
exactly easy. On the eyes.
Makes all the difference. But yeah, I mean, you guys know
who JFK jr. Was, I don't know that much I
need. I need background.
Alright, so he, so he's obviously the son of the late
JFK and his wife, Jackie. He was in his mom's belly during
the presidential campaign. Wow.
Her his dad, he was born premature on November 25th 1965
in Washington DC with an older sister Carolyn who's like three
years older than him. Him and he was the youngest
child to live in the White House since ss-sir.
Kennedy in 1893. Oh, and Americans.
Just loved having kids in the white house.
It was so exciting to have a little baby in the White House.
TV was such a new medium at the time.
And so it's suddenly felt like it was this intertwining of
politics but also cultural stories like people liked to
feel close to The presidential family in a way that they had
never before. Yeah.
Makes sense like public interest stories.
Yeah, politics, were crossing over.
His parents had a pretty troubled marriage JFK Was a
Serial cheater, and so he definitely took advantage of TV
to paint this wholesome image of their family.
Darn it and he really relied on the two little kids John, who
went by John John and Carolyn for public support.
John Donne this. Author.
Stephen Gillen, says that there was a steady stream of
sanitized, images of a mythical portrait of the Kennedys that
represented the ideal American Family healthy happy and devoid
of conflict. But that obviously was not true
JFK. We can dream, he would go to
parties with Jackie and then go hook up with like an intern in.
The Next Room is really kind of sleazy.
You also had a lot of health problems to that.
People didn't know about. I know, I've people want us to
do them too. We probably will someday but I'm
feel like it's gonna be a downer but I do things like they still
loved each other, like Jackie's told ya to him in would just
turn a blind eye. Like there was a sense of
acceptance with it. Yeah, so much cheating.
I know. But John John, and his dad did
have a pretty silly relationship for the couple of years that
they knew each other. He would hide underneath his
dad's desk and he would sneak secretly, take gum from him
because Jackie wouldn't let him chew gum.
Hmm and Jackie was also very protective If Mom of John and
Carolyn but she did really want her kids to live a normal life
and she frequently would fight with the photographers, and with
the press and also with the Secret Service, and she was just
really easy Clash with them about how involved the Secret
Service were to be in their life.
Like even one time, John had almost drowned in a pool, and
Jackie got mad at the Secret Service because she didn't want
them to help save the kids from drowning, because she saw that
as her responsibilities as a mom.
You're sitting and she said that the Secret Service could only
step in if someone was trying to kidnap or take the kids away,
what they couldn't intervene like normal accidents.
That it could happen to every other child see.
I mean, I guess I see what she's saying, but you'd think that, if
they were gonna die, you know, he'll know exactly.
But thankfully he didn't drown. Mmm.
What? Well, I think people know, I
mean, his life was really marked by tragedy very early on because
as, you know, his father, JFK was assassinated when John was
only just shy of three years old, very famous picture of
straw, and saluting his dad's casket.
And this author Stephen Gillen wrote that Salute by that little
boy in the blue at his father's casket.
Cemented the belief that John would be the natural heir to his
father's Legacy. One of John's Great greatest
achievements was the ability to Except those expectations with
enormous Grace, while never allowing them to distort, his
core sense of self. So people always saw him as
like, a prince in a way that I don't know.
I almost feel like he loved reading this book.
He was like Hamlet or Simba. Yeah, you feel just expected
that some day. He was going to take over for
his father and be president. And of course, like he even had
the same name, right? And so there was just a huge
burden, placed on him at a very young age.
I do think people do kind of see.
The Kennedys is an American royalty.
You yeah. Definitely.
I mean, they like this just wasn't closeness and familiarity
with them. Yeah, after his father died, it
was pretty traumatic for him. The family had to move three
times and that next year and his mom was very unavailable because
she was so depressed with the grief of her husband dying.
And he was described as very restless and rambunctious and
mischievous and some speculate that was maybe an outgrowth of
the trauma that he experienced. I know that he had been on
Ritalin from a very young age, seems like he had ADHD or
something. And he was just very kind of a
Class Clown, I guess you could say, he had a lot of cousins.
That was really close with, especially as cousin, Anthony
radziwill. And his mom side him, my cousin,
you and your cousin's. His mom.
Also, like in the For JFK dying, she really projected that idea
of Camelot. So the American people which
came from a quote that she had said, like, for a brief second.
There was Camelot, which meant that all was perfect.
If JFK had just not died, just like ideal way of life for the
American, people would still be going on.
And again, this author said that JFK jr.
Symbolized, a lost world. A world switch, many Americans,
wish to return. Turn.
Underlying this desire was a belief that John Would One Day
lead the nation back to the promised land a time, that
existed more people's imaginations than in reality.
And so with that idea of Camelot placed upon the legacy of JFK it
inadvertently burdened, the expectations on to JFK jr.
That like some day he would carry out this.
Yes, reality people could go back to especially with the
Nostalgia for the 1950s. Right?
And he experienced a lot of other trauma than his uncle.
Bobby. Kennedy was later.
Assassinated when John was only seven years old, which was
probably even more traumatic, because he actually knew Bobby
and he had kind of stepped up like a second father to him.
That's insane. Wow.
And then like there's obviously a lot of fear that like the kids
weren't safe, and something was going to happen to them, and it
just created this huge sense of anxiety.
It throughout the rest of his childhood, I bet.
But some speckled ODOT caused him to live on the edge even
more because he almost had this fearlessness about him.
Hmm. I could die anytime.
Okay, yeah, he had the sense of like, anything, really matters,
man. And he also has mom remarried
when he was tween. I don't know, the specifics, but
to a man named Aristotle Aristotle Onassis who was This
really rich Greek man. I'm on the only really did
businessman. Yeah.
And John had a somewhat complicated relationship with
him, but he also died when John was only 15 years old?
She and actually, John's stepbrother through that
marriage re actually died in a plane crash when John was 13.
She's a lot of fucked. Yeah, a lot of tragic things.
Excuse my language. But yeah.
So then as a teenager, John attended Phillips Academy where
he studied acting and he wanted to study acting professionally
in college. But Jackie wouldn't let him.
She actually submitted his college application to Brown
University where he studied pre-law, he also played rugby
and was in a frat and acted in a few plays know.
He was an actor. Yo, it was really a renaissance
man, lot of different things. He was just grabbed in school as
having attention deficit, being popular, warm, and funny humble
adventurous. A lover of life.
You know, Roenick sense of humor and love telling stories.
He didn't take himself too seriously handsome, a gym buff,
what working on his body. Never met a mirror who didn't
leg 61 with rock salt. Okay?
Throw good sexual, he loved getting facials.
Mm-hmm. He was just extremely patient
with people like people would come up and grab him and talked
about him. Some people would even Heckle
him like, say bad things about his dad.
He never really reacted to it. He kind of had a chill dude.
It seems I'm really popular guy. I definitely.
But in a good way. Yeah.
And a good way like he was the kind of popular guy, that's like
still nice to people that's nice.
And before dating Carolyn, he was a little bit of a womanizer,
he'd often overlap with his girlfriend's Woman as a woman as
a woman, but I guess his reasoning for that was to throw
off the press. I wouldn't know who he was
dating, but he always had to seem like he was in a
relationship, and some people wouldn't Hound him.
I feel like that's just an excuse, but he did Madonna for
six months in the 80s. What I guess you later, so that
he had a frightening temper. Mmm.
And he in the mid nineties, had a really serious relationship.
With an actress, Christina. Hag her Hague.
She also dated Sarah Jessica, Parker, 46 months in the 90s, I
didn't know that. Hmm, and what?
Yeah, and then he dated Daryl, Hannah the actress from that
movie Steel Magnolias. Oh, I've never seen it was
having an easier time talking. Okay, so then who is Carolyn,
Carolyn Carolyn really confusing because There's Carole
radziwill, who wrote that book. Yeah.
And there's also his sister Caroline and then there's Carol
in, that is confused. So these Carol Carolyn, Carolyn
these women are really gonna cause some Susan.
This episode Caroline was born on January 7th, 1966, in White,
Plains, New York. I guess that makes her a
Capricorn. She was very into astrology.
Actually, when always guess people sign, we met them.
So, Important to her, we all know, someone like that and
don't we, she liked to read people, her dad.
William was a kitchen designer and her mom was a school admin
and she had two older sisters, who were twins Lisa.
And Lauren, there were two years older than her and when she was
just six years old, her parents divorce, and her dad had left
her mom. And I don't think she had a
close relationship with him after that.
And then her mom remarried in 1973 to a chief of Orthopedics.
Surgery and the family moved to Old Greenwich.
Connecticut fancy and Karen went to st.
Mary's High School in Connecticut and she was voted
the ultimate beautiful person. She was remembered as being
incredibly sweet and dated the star of the football player.
She was very, very popular. Whoa.
Okay. We got two popular kids.
Yes. So then she went to Boston
University and her reputation wasn't good there.
Why? I don't know.
No, I don't know. There's no way.
Okay. Like there's been a lot of
negative stuff about Carolyn in this episode, and it makes me
feel bad because she died so young and like, uh, it's like,
she never got a chance to tell her son.
And then I was, yeah, I took an edible and when I'm done after
putting all this research together, and I was getting
really paranoid, like, not to go back to the conspiracies, but
what I want to hear it. I don't know what the Kennedy
family has just so much power and influence.
Like is it possible that they for whatever reason would have
wanted to paint Carolyn in a negative light?
Oh do you think this information came out after she was with him
or after? Well, I died.
A lot of it did. Come out while she was with him
too. Okay.
But I don't know if that's just because their relationship was
breaking down so much. And like do you think it's
possible? They like wanted her to seem
like a bad guy in the relationship.
It's Isabel reminding me of you. Like you know that family and
the show you who's season. Yeah.
Where it's like they have so much influence and they can.
Yeah. They can just get a guy and like
change the story. Yeah.
Making these possible. I felt the same way in the
Maryland episode because it was so sad that she died, but then I
was like, oh yeah, she was cheating, It's just sad because
it's like she died. I'm not to jump have like she
died when she was so young that, like, at that age, you are
really messy. And there is, yeah.
Stuff that you're figuring out and like mmm to die at a time,
like that. Like, you just never really get
the chance to look back at your life and be like, wow, I was
really. Yeah, in a rough place that or,
you know, I made some mistakes like just don't have that
perspective that you would later on.
So, totally. I think that people don't know
what they're doing in their early twenties.
Yeah, as someone who is not that far from it, I don't even like
people that kind of overlap relationships and stuff.
It's like, they're just figuring it.
Exactly. It's not like the worst sin in
the world. Yeah, but anyway, what was the
reputation? Like, was she bullying?
People was, she was also, she wasn't in any clubs or didn't
Esports, and that's not a big deal.
She never made Dean's List, who cares?
That's fine. Yeah, but she, she was very much
known for her active social life, dating a lot of
influential men on campus and people, Describe her as a
boyfriend stealer. Oh, I guess a friend she worked
with remembered that. She had one time said.
Well a friend said, that didn't matter if the men that she
desired, we're already in relationships, Carolyn had
apparently once plotted to steal her boyfriend.
So her friends friend her friend's boyfriend, who was a
hockey player and she would pretend to be humble and then
turn around and be a complete snob.
When she was hanging out with the fashion people.
Oh, and while I'd be you, she worked at the Calvin.
Klein store in Chestnut. Hill, run that she worked with.
Remembers that. She asked who her dream guy was
in? Carolyn responded.
John F. Kennedy jr.
I'm going to get him. I'm going to move to New York
and I'm gonna get him. How do people always do this?
It's crazy or manifestation. Wow, you know.
Okay, that's really shitty of her and I'm Not excusing it
people but she probably was really insecure mmm because I'm
the reason people act that way. Yeah exactly.
It gives them a Power Trip. Yeah.
But deep down she was probably so insecure about herself that
she had to put up this fake self.
Yeah, that makes me really sad though because she was so
beautiful especially to be voted by her.
High school is the ultimate beautiful person that's true.
Why are sometimes? I don't know, but maybe he's a
lot of people who are always regard.
For their looks like they don't know what else to fall back on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah true. I mean, she might need constant
validation that people still think she's attractive.
Yeah. It's still working.
Blah blah blah. That's so true.
You know, I guess when asked what she wanted to do with her
life, she said I want to be famous.
Maybe if I hook up at the right guy I'm going to be famous.
I mean, yeah, I famous you can sell this for a million dollars
because I'm gonna be fine. That's from Degrassi.
So she received her degree in early childhood education.
Didn't really use that though. Because after graduation, she
did marketing for clubs and continue to work at the Calvin
Klein store where she's been spotted by the president of
Calvin. Klein Calvin.
Klein's women's collection and he invited her to move to New
York. What?
Have a job? A company accommodating
celebrity clients is because she's gonna be oh my God.
She just had this Essence about her.
That was so. Attractive to people.
And she wasn't intimidated by any celebrities.
She just acted very nonchalant and chill around them.
How did she get this confident mean?
It sounds like her parents were wealthy but like, kitchen
designer. I don't get it.
I'm not sure if she had, she had a little bit of a fiery
personality. So before dating John, she had
been in a relationship with the Calvin.
Klein model named, Michael bergeon, And wow.
In this one article with the writer of that book, The Kennedy
curse. He had apparently said there was
one time. When Carolyn saw me at a bar
lighting, a cigarette for an ex-girlfriend Carolyn came over
pushed the girl out of the way and my face and screamed and
yelled at me and even drew a little blood from my face.
I went home and two minutes later, Carolyn was at my door.
I had to let her in or she would have knocked the whole building
down. I had these tall heavy religious
candle. Candles and she threw one
through the window smashing the window pane and another at the
mirror above the fireplace mantle, which shattered then she
knocked the television set and BCR onto the floor and jumped on
my VCR in squash dib oh my God I just pried the money rest in
peace I know I just but that's so imagine I know it's really
loud. Breaking Windows.
Wow. Well, you know, it's
entertaining. Yep, for us.
It is, I guess. Thanks for them.
She's in. D.c. are that's how he's a lot
of. Yeah.
If you knew someone like that I'm sorry you would not stand.
I'm probably. So, but I think that kind of
personality like really attracted John to her because he
liked a little wild side and yeah, because yeah, it's who he
loves to live on. The I right, he probably liked
that so they met at a Paul Newman, charity event and I'm
not really sure since Carolyn had said that she always wanted
to meet him. Like I wonder if she's somehow
like met someone threw her job and like arranged for them to me
at the TV. Just seems to serendipitous wow
incidents but they're both somewhat in relationships.
So Carolyn was dating that Calvin Klein model, Michael,
burgeon kind of a new relationship and John had been
In a relationship with Daryl. Hannah, the Steel Magnolias
actress. I bet that didn't stop either of
them didn't John was instantly attracted to Carolyn's
mesmerizing charm and how independently minded she was and
not afraid to voice opinions without seeming nervous around
him. Hmm.
This Vanity Fair article by Edward.
Klein says, John once told a friend I'm attracted to
strong-willed women like my mother very before you doing,
okay. Alan was not just a
strong-willed woman, she could be demanding domineering, and
according to even her best friends, downright bitchy, some
people felt that John overlooked her faults because he was
blinded by her glamorous Jackie O style, and her own edgy.
Modern Way, Carolyn was as chicest Jackie, she dressed with
the simple Elegance. That John adored like The Ether
will Jackie Carolyn, affected an air of mystery and
unavailability which drove the media crazy and sustained the
public frenzy. That John found, exciting and
fun. And like, Jackie Carolyn was
very controlling which made me feel protected and cared for
downright bitchy. But after meeting at that
charity event, John then went to the Calvin, Klein store, and got
styled by her and he purchased three suits.
Wow. And then, he even asked her on a
date, he got tickets to a play, but Carolyn actually got stuck
at work and never called never showed up.
She stood. I'm up.
Oh my God. Hot really attracted even more
because he's used to women throwing themselves at him.
And then suddenly this woman is acting.
Like she doesn't really care at all that, but she actually did
care. I feel like that should be a red
flag button, whatever. Yeah.
Like, apparently Carolyn would tell her friends.
Like, oh, I don't care about him.
And then she would stay home and like, sit by the phone, and wait
for it, right? Of course, and then so, Carole,
radziwill, Anthony's wife, Was that one time they were all at
their summer house? I don't forget where it was,
maybe in the Caper somewhere and she saw Carolyn like sneak out
of John's room one night. But apparently that was very
short lived, because then they both went back to their
perspective relationship. Strong captivating, Daryl Hannah
for the next two years and two years.
Mmm, and Carolyn kept dating her boyfriend.
Michael Michael bergeon, I'm virgin, I like that name.
So they stayed in touch though, like they were kind of in
similar orbits, I think jono's kept tabs on Carolyn to see what
she was up to keep her on the back burner.
Yep. Keep kept keep her as an option.
So that it's 1994. And sadly Jackie was diagnosed
with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma and she had a very short battle with
that. And she had died in May, which
Really affected John and that put a huge strain on his
relationship with his girlfriend, Daryl Hannah because
and I feel bad for Daryl because her dog had just died and then
her other dog was dying. And she was so distracted.
By that, there's John was really mad that he couldn't, she wasn't
really there for him. When his mom was dying, which I
totally get like, that's even, yeah, yeah, I just feel bad
cause like, might like my dog had just tied, that is very
emotional and I feel like she just like, couldn't control her
emotions. Yeah.
Why are we both are dogs dying at the same time?
I know. So I guess like one of the
Jackie's last weekend's she made John, like, come to a funeral
for the dog and like, I really pissed him off, I guess, but he
didn't even really know that Jackie was going to die.
But that just put a huge strain relationship and it made him
realize like how he wants to settle down and be with someone
serious. Yeah, I don't know.
Like Carolyn reminds him of his mom there, but it seems like
that was a turning point in his romantic life.
Well, I think, when really serious huge things like that
happen, you do kind of evaluate your whole life and it puts
things into perspective. Yeah, exactly since.
So then he broke it off with Darryl and started chasing after
Carolyn. Wow, he heard that she liked to
party a lot. And he asked a mutual friend to
investigate and the friend, went back to him and says, she does,
a lot of coke. She stays out, Late at night,
she gets with a lot of different guys and he told John to be
careful, but John ignored the advice I'm not told Karen what
the friend said. Well, how did this friend do
that? I don't know.
I think John's got eyes and ears everywhere.
Did somebody actually physically go to these parties and observe
how much influence? Sometimes I want to be a spy I
know. Let's try to be a private
investigator. Yeah I know we can be dangerous
but yeah it's maybe spy think is dangerous but being a private
investigator. I don't know.
I think I'll be a step ahead. It's a lot of waiting and ya
know our grand prix are change. My parents hired a private
investigator one time. Both of our grandparents.
Yeah, our mutual grandparents, why?
Because our aunt was getting cheated on.
Oh, I didn't know they did that. You didn't know not say that on
the show. It's fine.
I thought my mom does acted as a private investigator.
No, they hired. Wow maybe I shouldn't say.
So why do they need an additional?
Additional coverage by my mom. I know it's bad to be like, nosy
and stalking someone, but I, I think it's foreign today.
Someone's having an affair? Yeah, I have the urge to do
something like that, right now, is there such a no?
There isn't a security, but I just want something like that to
happen and then I can investigate.
Yeah. But I would want to do it for
some Like a party that I'm not as emotionally invested in the,
don't hate to be investigating for a friend in and have to
break the news to her. That you're getting cheated on.
Yeah. It would be fun to be involved
in a stranger situation. Yeah, I think I just haven't had
anything that suspicious happened.
In within my Social Circle model.
Yeah, that's a good thing. That's very funny.
I think I'm Carolyn was like shouldn't hang out with a friend
anymore. She was very offended and
anyway, Sean considered her, the first girlfriend who he could
see beyond the veneer who could see beyond the veneer of his
Fame and celebrity and then and that's November John introduced
Carolyn to his sister Caroline and her husband, Ed and Carol
rats as well. Says that this interaction was
awkward and that Carolyn gave John a warm hug and then just
said to Carolyn nice to meet you and that Carolyn supposed
Caroline supposedly didn't like that.
Carolyn was a big partier in very opinionated like she kind
of already got off on the wrong foot with the family.
I see that things were getting pretty serious very soon that
spring Carolyn moved into John's Tribeca Apartment, his tribe,
lepke and toes. And then that summer for the
Fourth of July, they went to Martha's Vineyard and John
invited Carolyn to go fishing. And she was not a nature girl.
She didn't like fishing, she really didn't want to go.
Hmm, But she did. And then on the boat John got
down on one knee and said fishing, is so much better with
a partner and pulled out a replica of his mother's
engagement ring. Wow.
And Carolyn didn't say yes right away.
But 04 the ring anyway, I told friends that they'd eventually
get Married and apparently she just wasn't in a hurry.
She was only 29 years old and Carole radziwill.
Theorized that Carolyn would have preferred to be secretly
engaged forever without having to actually get married.
And she thought that the fantasy would be better than the reality
of interesting surprise. And she was so crazy about him.
I know, I guess you really worried about the expectations
that would be placed on her when she got with him.
Hmm and she really worried that he Are her as a replica of his
own mom and she would say to him, I'll never be your mother,
which is a lot. I mean, she didn't want to have
to be Jackie O to the public. Yeah, I can picture this so
well. Just on the ocean is like, an
American flag Rippling off the boat.
Probably was really American. Yeah.
And I guess he saw marriage as a gateway to living, a more normal
life and thinking that the Press would lose interest in him.
I could see why. You think that?
Yeah, didn't really happen that way at all.
And then three weeks later, Carolyn officially accepted the
proposal and they only told a few close friends, but did the
word get out? Yes.
Event on Labor Day. The New York Post, ran a story
with a close-up shot of her ring.
Just days before. John was going to announce the
launch of his new magazine. George.
Oh, which this magazine was a long time coming for him.
It was this idea. Cool.
Bridging not a gossip news stories but public interest some
new stories with politics and style and fashion just putting
that all together. It's reminds me of Nate on
Gossip Girl. When he randomly launched today
space for me, literally The Spectator.
Yeah. Like it's gossip but more
serious. Yeah, I know that will literally
yeah, because Nate was supposed to be from a family like that.
Of the magazine which I don't feel like I could help the Maxi.
I know, right? I don't know.
So they wanted to sink the story.
So John had his assistant Rosemarie, deny the engagement
and say that it was just a promise ring classic, what is
it? These promise wrath.
But that's why I think that maybe celebrities really are
engaged, but they say there, it's a promise rings to throw
the public on, maybe because who actually does mmm this day and
age. I thought all press is good.
Press I don't me too. I thought that would just draw
more attention. So yeah, the assistant said once
again, John Kennedy seems to be bearing the brunt of a slow news
day. The story circulating regarding
an engagement are untrue. He's not engaged while it is,
not our habit to comment on John's personal life.
The story seems to have taken a life of its own, and we feel it
necessary to respond, which I think draws more Intrigue to it,
like, you know, That's really mysterious that you have to come
out and deny this story. Yeah, and I guess Carolyn was
not happy about it but she understood.
Yeah, I wouldn't be either. But then it makes you wonder
like, oh, I things Rocky like what's going on.
Yeah. So what did you expect?
If you're wearing the ring? I know.
Hmm, I just get stuck on the last episodes we did.
But did I mean, Jon, and Katie were engaging.
I know that that does make me wonder.
Who else had a problem is occurring only think.
Oh, what was it? Robin FKA twigs?
Yeah, they were really engaged. They were really engaged.
But yeah, I think before the news came out, they did say it
was a promise ring. Oh my God.
They must have been just engaged.
But so there's evidence that their relationship was pretty
Rocky, also early on. So in February of 1996, in
Washington Square Park, there was an Infamous event where they
spotted publicly fighting, so they had been walking their dog
Friday and holding hands and then Carolyn stopped in her
tracks and started yelling at John.
And then he started yelling at her with his finger, in his, in
her face, and she grabbed the back of his neck.
And then he grabbed her wrist and they were wrestling in front
of people. So New York and then she tried
to, he tried to rip her engagement ring from her finger.
Oh my God. And then she tried to leave with
the dog and John shouted, you've got my ring, you're not getting
my dog. And then, after Carolyn was
seen, consoling him on the curb and then they left holding.
Hands. But there's even footage of this
happening. And well, I got us a lot of some
point. Hmm.
And apparently John had been casually invited to be the best
man in a wedding of a guy that he barely knew.
And they had been seated next to a New York Times editor at that
wedding. And so Carolyn, you know,
presumed that the only reason he was even invited to the wedding
in the first place was so that the bride could get a story
written about her in the New York Times.
Carolyn always thought that people were just using John for
his Fame and his notoriety. And she felt like people were
always taking advantage of him and she got mad that he didn't
storm out of the wedding to make a big stink about it.
Hmm. She always thought that he
wasn't sticking up for himself. I don't know why they're get.
So riled up about that though. I know that is interesting.
The he went through with it. I know my best man for someone.
He hardly knew. I know.
I don't think that he suspected that it was a, the person had
ulterior motives till he. I was actually at the wedding.
Wow. But then he was nice about it
and stayed, and she got mad that he didn't storm out, but I mean,
that would be way worse. Yeah, he is aware that he has to
keep up his reputation. You can't look ungrateful or
whatever for his privilege and celebrity, so, yeah, but that
really bothered her. But during this time, they're
also planning their wedding. And secret, which is planned for
September and Carolyn flies to Paris and she's boat.
Graphed out at a restaurant with her wedding dress designer and
the Press thinks that she's having an affair with the
designer, which makes her thrilled because people are not
even suspecting anything makes her Thrills.
So then their wedding is in September, on the Cumberland
Island which is a small island off the coast of Georgia and
they have their wedding of the First African Baptist Church,
which is a very small wedding or small Church.
There's only 11 wooden pews. There's no air-conditioning or
electricity. Wow.
And Steve, are you? Yeah, it's very secret and
intimate. There's only 40 guests wedding
party gets dressed up in a small house near the chapel and John,
even invites elderly made to be at the wedding, which is crazy
because there's like barely anybody out this because nice
and apparently John is late to the wedding because he can't
find a shirt. So it ends up getting really
dark and the guests had to use flashlights and candles to light
the room. That's cool.
It was lightly, showering outside, and apparently Carolyn
no Caroline Jones here made snide comments about the fact
that Carolyn was late to her own wedding, which I thought John
was, the reason they were late, but she didn't like that.
And she also didn't like that Carolyn wore heels on the beach.
And apparently, this led to them not getting along later on.
Why does that matter? I don't know.
Heels on the beach. I think I think Caroline just
Probably got a bad vibe from Carolyn.
Yeah. Especially since she's seemingly
was temperamental. Yeah.
Mmm. Maybe she felt like she was
ruining the heels or something and I thought that was grati.
I don't know. Maybe it was like their family
money. Wait, I was probably her
family's, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure if that's so
then. John's cousin Anthony.
The best man. He gave a speech.
Instead we all know why John would marry Carolyn.
She is smart, beautiful, and Charming.
So what does she see in John? A person who over the years has
taken pleasure in teasing me like nasty tricks in general.
Torturing me for some of the things that I guess might have
attracted. Carolyn to John are his caring,
his charm and his very big heart of gold.
It might sound corny but it is true.
Love and has brought all of us who love John a great deal of
Happiness, knowing that he will have someone a specialist
Carolyn by his side for the rest of his life.
I don't think we've ever had any wedding speeches on this
podcast. Yeah that might be the first
think we've had access. Wow I don't know how people even
know what he said because there was no Paparazzi or reporters at
this wedding but then afterwards they released a statement, the
Associated Press about it. So word got out and they went to
Turkey for their honeymoon and they had hoped that when they
got back. John celebrity would die down.
Because now he's a married man. And no one's going to care about
him. And yeah.
But the complete opposite happened.
The paparazzi was now obsessed with them.
And every single day there was 80 to 20 photographers camped
outside, their apartment, just waiting to snap a picture of
them and apparently a photo of them could sell for like twenty
thousand dollars just for laughs.
Oh my God, I got so bad that John and Carolyn had a press
conference where he asked Paparazzi to leave them alone
and he said this is a big change for anyone for a private citizen
even more. So I just ask for any privacy or
room you could give her as she makes that adjustment, it would
be greatly appreciated. Well that only fed into the
friends even more because Carolyn suddenly was very
mysterious to the people and everybody wanted to know more
about her and even Ralph Lauren said, everytime you design
something, or create something think of Carolyn Bessette.
Actually just bought this New York Magazine, that was like,
100 years of it girls. And I think she was one of them.
Yeah, now the people were obsessed with them.
Their first formal outing was at the Whitney Museum Gala and you
were crowned by the New York Post as New York's king queen,
wow. And once again, she was compared
to Jackie Kennedy, but Carolyn instantly was having a really
tough time with this new fame. It's kind of weird because it
seemed like she wanted to be famous.
She said, I want to be famous I don't know.
I don't think she really realizes like the reality of it,
and I think like, she didn't have a personality that was
actually good for fame. Hmm.
Because she was really paranoid about people, digging up things
from her past and looking to see to her, you know, painting her
in a bad light, like, yeah, even it had come out that she had
illegally subletted. Her old apartment years before,
and that just was a really paranoid about what other stuff
they're gonna dig up about her. So Random Mmm.
Yeah. I guess it's that classic saying
be careful what you wish for. Really she grew more reclusive
and she wasn't really willing to leave the apartment but that
made people even more obsessed with her because they really
wanted to know. Like, yeah, she was, she was
just so mysterious. Wow, it girl.
Mmm, really, and John and her fought a lot and they had a lot
of different things that they thought about the first was
Carolyn resented. A lot of John's.
And because like I said, she thought that they were taking
advantage of him. They all had hidden agendas and
they probably did and she tried to limit his contact with a lot
of different people. One of the biggest ones was
John's business partner, Michael hmm.
He found Carolyn to be very controlling and paranoid
especially because of her cocaine usage and he didn't like
how much time she spent at the office for the George magazine.
And apparently, she and Asserted herself into a lot of different
things. Hmm.
And one of her friends told Edward Cline, the author of The
Kennedy curse. She thought Michael wasn't on
the up-and-up and that he had a vested interest in her husband.
She poisoned John's relationship with, Michael.
I heard her tell John, I don't believe Michael is your real
friend. The only reason he's close to
you is because you're John F, Kennedy jr.
Hmm. And this tension between Michael
and Carolyn got so bad that it ended Leading to a huge Fallout
between Michael and JFK jr. Which signaled, a lot of
troubles at the Magazine's because then I think Michael
really was doing the majority of the work.
Oh my own without decide. The magazine, just really
started to crumble. Do you think she was right?
Or was she just paranoid and starting fights?
I can't, I don't, I mean maybe. But I think I I mean, a lot of
people did tell the Press - stories about Carolyn.
So obviously, I'm sure there were a lot of people who John
couldn't trust. Yeah.
And I don't think that anybody would could really.
If you're that famous, like, you always probably have to be wary
of a lot of different people. Hmm.
But was there anybody? He could trust.
Also, he also had his assistant Rosemarie who was very, very
loyal to him and Carolyn tried to Her fired, what really
jealous of Rose Marie and she hated how much he trusted her.
And because he, she felt like rose was more loyal to John and
to Carolyn like, Carolyn would tell Rosemarie stuff and say,
don't tell, John don't tell him and then she would.
She was she was his this. Yeah.
Not yours. I get probably everybody was
trying to take advantage of him but it is kind of shitty to act
like Or I'm the only person you can trust exactly.
Yeah, but then I will say Rosemarie did later, end up,
writing a book about them called fairytale interrupted, so does
make you wonder. Could you really be trusted?
Can you trust anybody in this godforsaken world?
Everyone who wrote a book about them was like I'm doing it to
keep their legacy alive, their story, because they're not here
to do so. But they do tell us some very
silly things. Make me wonder like, how much
did you get paid for those? Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I don't know.
But I know they were probably more Regular People.
Hmm. Especially an assistant.
Yeah, they needed a book. So Rosemary said, in her book,
John's John's insensitivity with the biggest Catalyst of their
arguments can only would decline invitations from friends because
John said he was coming home for dinner.
So she would wait and wait and wait while he worked late and
went to the gym and then wall, listen to the apartment way.
Past dinner time, another classic scenario was when he
would spring important information on her at the last
minute, such as, oh, by the way, the Whitney benefit is in two
days or I'm bringing a friend home for dinner, right?
Yeah. It wasn't mean-spirited.
Or on his part he was simply as disorganized and clueless as a
kid, the bugs mean to Yep. And I'm apparently he was very
absent because of his magazine especially since it was
struggling a lot and Carolyn would do anything, she could to
get his attention because of this and he would call her
during the day and she'd refused to answer and she would go out
and go somewhere and not tell him where she was going mmm-hmm.
I'm cat and mouse. Yeah.
They also have very different interests.
He was very active and adventurous.
And, you know, he loved to go mountain climbing and he loved
planes. He was getting his pilot's
license in just loved like all those manly stuff.
Yeah. You know, missing sailing but
she was becoming more and more recluse, especially with the
fame, and he had told her friend.
I can't just come home and talk about the dog and the cat all
evening and then sometimes he would come home and she would
have all of her model fashion friends.
Has over, and they would just be doing cocaine and stuff and
living room really pissed him off.
So, they really clashed about their plans.
Oh, man, that's a classic thing to fight about though.
It's pretty normal, they also really class about having kids,
he was really ready to be a father, and he apparently
already nicknamed or named their hypothetical future son, Flynn,
that's cute. You know, this is giving me
blind friends, but she didn't want to have Kids guys, she was
very afraid of the media attention that kids would bring
onto them further. And she didn't want to have to
worry about taking care of kids, that would also be in the public
eye. Hmm.
And they also fought about her spending habits.
Apparently she was very warm and generous with her money.
She would buy very expensive gifts for the George staff like
very expensive gifts. She would leave very large tips
that every restaurant they went to and she was very nice to at
this time. John's cousin Anthony, he was
battling cancer and she was a really solid source of support
for both Anthony and his wife, Carol who had written a book
about them and she would, wow, attend all his doctor visits
with them and she was very close with them, but she's very
generous though and John didn't like how much she was spending.
Hmm, sounds nice. But I think it was like she was
overdoing it. Yeah, I think it was a little
Carol has at times been in 1997, Princess Diana's death really
exasperated, Carolyn's fears of the paparazzi even more.
And apparently she would say that she was really worried.
The same thing would happen to her.
The happened to Diana, which is just kind of ironic because
literally it's like, she's the American princess.
Yeah. And being ostracized, Austin
ostracized by the press all the time.
Hmm. And John.
On worried about Carolyn a lot, but he also was very frustrated
frustrated with her inability to adjust and cope with the
situation and because he grew up with this lifestyle.
Yeah. You didn't really understand how
difficult it could be for someone who didn't.
Yeah. Wasn't used to it.
Sounds similar to Charles and Diana in that way.
Yeah, he was like, just get over it.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
The sooner you accept it the better?
Yeah, she couldn't accept it. And she became very fixated to
on. Physical appearance and would,
you know, like was very obsessed with dying her hair and dieting.
And she would self-medicate with cocaine all the time which Adam
paranoia. And then in 2004 Carolyn's
ex-boyfriend Michael, burgeon remember the Calvin Klein model,
he revealed that he and Carolyn had actually maintained a close
friendship after their breakup and would talk on the phone
often and that she felt she Could always rely on him to be
there while John was absent. And that in 1997, they started
seeing each other again. And she actually went to LA and
they met up and slept wake up Virgin, I didn't expect that
Gap. And then around Thanksgiving,
they met up at a Connecticut Motel.
They have sex again and then when John was away on a trip to
Iceland Carolyn's 11 days in LA with him and then once John even
showed up at their apartment in Tribeca and Michael was in bed
with her. What sent Michael down?
Like to get away like he John, didn't catch them or anything,
but they were Rendezvous, going it up.
Oh my God. And Michael apparently said that
the reason he's telling people, the snow is because a lot of bad
things have been said about Carolyn and so he wants people
to know what a lovely person. And she was and I guess he had
to, you know, tell people how close they were because of that.
But I don't think this makes her look any better.
No, I don't know if that helps. She was having an affair with
me, but she was a great person. I knew her better than anybody.
She was a lovely woman and a great lover.
You could have kept that to himself.
Yeah. I mean, But he could have just
said, like, we maintain a friendship.
Yeah, she's a great person. Yeah.
And apparently, John's friends verified reports after the book
came out, because John had confessed to them, his fears,
that they were having an affair. Oh, wow.
So was John ever having an affair.
So, Carolyn told Michael that she thought that apparently in
1998, Carolyn broke down and told Michael that she was in
love with Michael and that she confessed to him that she
thought that John was having an affair in Michael asked her, why
she thought that? And she said, I don't know, I
just do hmm there's no evidence that he had an affair but
apparently there were rumors that maybe he was seeing his ex
Daryl. Hannah again, what?
But no one really know. They're both possibly seen their
exes this foursome, but Jon Jon's friends?
He's apparently said that he confessed to them that he wished
he could cheat on her, but he couldn't humiliate her.
Like his father, did to his mother.
That's nice. That's nice.
But I don't know if I buy that can also wait.
So he wanted to G gonna say, but we do think on this podcast, if
one person is cheating, if one person she'd send the other
person continues, I just feel like he's probably better at
hiding. His cheating.
Yeah, because he knows how to play the media.
Yeah. Here's more people willing to be
on his side because he has more influence.
I'd be pretty amazed if he never did.
Mmm. Apparently he also said that
Carolyn viewed marriage like men do and that she was cynical
because of the way that her father had left her mother.
But John felt very desperate with how reclusive and paranoid.
She was staff members at George said that he was very grouchy
and it was clear that there were issues at home And he had a very
close friend named Sasha from I think all the way back in high
school and it was kind of almost like a Mindy and BJ situation.
He actually even insisted on being The Godfather to both of
Sasha's children. Interesting, but from what I can
tell it was, mostly platonic. But he would confide in Sasha
about their relationship issues. Interesting.
Which I don't know, like that, Sasha, what's what's this Sasha?
And He begged Sasha to get Carolyn out of the apartment for
a glass of wine and apparently she did in the first question
that Carolyn asked Sasha over wine was, how do you keep
passion in the relationship? When you've been with someone,
for a long time? And Sasha said, well, that's not
something that you need to worry about since you haven't been
together that long? Damn, no.
And apparently, Carolyn would tell friends that John wasn't
her type and that she wasn't sexually attracted to him.
I thought he was super good looking.
I know it seems like again, careful what you wish for like,
yeah, she was chasing him for all these years but then she
couldn't handle the reality. Oh my God.
Being with him and it made her resent him and lose attraction
for him. Wow, he was actually voted the
sexiest man alive in 1988. So the fact that she said that
she didn't even find him sexy. Wow, that's insane.
Know? What see you guys, it can happen
to anybody. No, yes.
Oh my God, things are really not great.
So then in 1999, he persuaded Carolyn to see a psychiatrist
psychiatrist and he made sure that she started taking
antidepressant medications and to amuse her.
He flew her to a romantic Hideaway for a romantic vacation
to hopefully try to mend things but that March Each they hit a
Breaking Point, they started attending couples counseling
together and in one session in that July that July Carolyn
stormed out of the session after her drug, use came up and she
started sleeping in the spare room.
And then he started staying at the Stanhope hotel in Manhattan.
Oh no. So things, it just seems like
our kind of out of breaking point now.
And on July think 13th, Carolyn's sister Lauren,
arranges for them to all have drinks at the hotel to try to
mend things between them. Neither of them are really in
the mood to talk and they just kind of sit there in silence in
the lobby of the hotel and Lauren asked them to hold hands,
but they refused. But then she insisted and they
hold hands reluctantly. I don't know how people know
this. That's sweet of Lauren, you
know, how do they know? Yeah, I think Lauren was really
stressed. About everything going on with
her sister and she wanted to help them work on their
marriage. Sweet.
And so, that weekend, John's cousin, Rory was getting married
in Hyannis, and Carolyn really didn't want to go to the
wedding. She didn't want to be there with
John and she also didn't really like the Kennedy family and she
really felt like an outsider among them.
Hmm. But Lauren insisted that, she
should go to support John, especially since his cousin
Anthony was unfortunately dying of cancer.
And because Is everything going on with his magazine?
And he was under a lot of stress and more.
Instead, I'll go with you, I'll ride in the plane with you and
that was the only thing that convinced Carolyn to go to the
wedding. And so the plan was that they
were going to fly to Martha's Vineyard and drop Lauren off in
Martha's Vineyard to be with her friends for the weekend and then
they would go to Hyannis for the wedding, okay?
So that evening, actually, John even call up up a friend while
in the Stanhope hotel and confessed, all the problems
going on in his marriage. Wow.
He was lying on his bed and said, it's falling apart.
Everything is falling apart. He said, I want to have kids but
whenever I raise this subject with Carolyn she turns away and
refuses to have sex with me, he also said it's not just about
sex, it's impossible to talk to Carolyn about anything.
We've become like total strangers, my God and then the
next day on July, 16, they were supposed to fly out of New
Jersey during the day but Lauren got delayed with work.
And then there was a lot of traffic so they didn't fly out
of New Jersey until 8:30, 3 p.m. and at this time weather
conditions were pretty hazy and John had just purchased this
flight only three months before and light or plants.
Are This Plane okay, little prop plane be okay.
He had been interested in Plants his whole life by the way.
Like even from as young as a toddler flying on Air Force, One
with his dad. Well, even the last time he ever
even saw his dad was when he was taking off on the plane.
And he was waving to his dad from the term acts.
So plans were a lifelong Obsession for John and but he
wasn't that experienced of a fire.
He had only three hundred and ten hours of flight experience,
but because he had the sense of fearlessness about him, he With
a lot more Reckless because he's certified he was certified.
Yeah, well, so then at 8:40, the plane disappeared from radar
screens but John never issued, any emergency warnings during
the flight or anything. And then at 2:15 a.m. the
Kennedy family reported to the Coast Guard that the plane had
not arrived and the Coast Guard started a search and rescue
effort at 4 a.m. oh my God. And then over the next A couple
of days, the tent that was erected for the wedding of Rory,
Kennedy became a site for friends and family to gather and
pray for the safe return of John Lord, John Carolyn and her
sister Lauren, my God. That's really, I mean, it's a
tragedy for everyone. That's really sad for Rory.
I know that would happen to the wedding.
No, very sad. I know, I think the nightmare
writing a few months later. I know it's awful.
I don't think of all the planning that goes into.
Yeah, it's supposed to be the happiest day of your life and
caught I know. And then unfortunately, on July
19th debris, from the plane was found, including luggage and
personal items, floating in the Atlantic Ocean, seven and a half
mile to ought to Martha's Vineyard.
And then on July 21st, the wreckage of the plane including
the engine is located on the ocean floor at a depth of 120
feet. And then the bodies of John
Carolyn and born were all recovered from the crash site.
That's so tragic. Oh, leave that the crash.
So there was a whole investigation that lasted until
March 2000 but it sounds like I'm trying.
It's believed that the crash happened around 9:40 after John
became disoriented while flying over the ocean and was unable to
maintain control of the plane. Oh, my God, that's so scary.
And it's speculated that it took him about only three minutes
from realizing, there was a problem until the plane had
crashed and its really sad in her book.
Carole radziwill says that she always thinks about that.
Whenever anything takes three minutes, she's like, wow segment
on the news or something. It's yeah, whatever.
You can think of it takes three minutes.
Like that's how much life can change in that short amount of
time. She like crashes often occur in
private jets or planes, right? Dumplings.
I know. Well, it's you want to go on
one? I mean it makes me think about
like Kobe Bryant like yeah a lot of celebrities fly.
All these like small planes all the time.
Yeah. They're so used to that ease of
travel that sometimes they might be putting themselves into
dangerous, dangerous situations. Yeah, flying and hazy conditions
just for the convenience of it. I don't think John he wasn't an
experienced enough pilot in order to To like, know what to
do in a situation like that. So sad.
Uh-huh. And some people speculate that
the stress and state of their marriage, may have also been a
contributing factor. Yeah.
Maybe Like he wasn't totally on it little distracted.
Yeah. You'd also just a few months
before had broken his foot and he had to go on but I don't know
if he actually his foot might have been a little bit recovered
by the time the flight like he was cleared to fly that could
have also been a factor as well. Also he had taken a shortcut or
try to take a shortcut so rather than flying around the coast of
Rhode Island he went over much larger open bar D of water.
So it was a lot darker outside and also they have scared.
It was supposed to fly out during the day.
This is so sad. Like, if all these things and
have happened they might yeah today.
It's crazy because I don't know. It seems like they probably
would have gotten divorced and I had to guess within it never
happened. Do you know like other time I'm
guessing the public perception was that?
They had like a great relationship, I think so.
Yeah. I mean even that book that Rose
Marie Rose called the fairy tale interrupted.
Like I feel like people really saw this as like a prince and
princess of me. Yes story.
But I do think that fight in Washington Square Park.
Like was the first sign that there was trouble in their
relationship tragic, but there was, I think a lawsuit after the
fact. I think her family did Sue, the
Kennedy family. So that was one thing that made
me wonder like is that why there's such negative stories
about Carolyn out there? Like did they want to paint
Carolyn evil in for some reason? Why did they sue like on the
basis of what? I don't know?
Do not like, what could the family have to do with?
I mean, what can they do? You know?
Yeah, I think they sued the estate for.
It's not like anyone else was involved.
I don't know, like, even like the Ryan family sued, the estate
of the pilot. This, the plane that killed
Cody. It's tough situation because
like, you want to find somebody responsible in a situation like
that. But yeah, times like it is just
An accident. And yeah, I mean, it's not The
Grieving families will I know when both families lost
somebody. Yeah.
Oh, I'm glad I learned the whole story.
I never really heard the whole thing.
Wow, some of these episodes and quite sadly.
But you know what? We're keeping them alive and
it's good. Remember tragic to think that
their lives ended so abruptly, like in the middle of all this
drama. Like, I mean, so scared animals,
like what their lives could have been.
Like they both could have gotten divorced gone separated, like
they could have lived very independent lives.
Yeah. And that's somebody else.
And it also is just sad that like she was.
So paranoid that people were gonna like sell all these
stories about her to the place and then they kind of did I
know. Like you can see why she was
paranoid. Yeah.
And then her Of being like Diana.
That's crazy. Yeah, she did die young too.
Oh, wait. Let me see.
How old she was? She was just 33 years old and I
feel really bad for their parents to the facade parents.
Yeah, they lost two daughters. That's so tragic.
Oh my God. That's a nightmare.
I know why is life. So, cruel Carolyn, Caroline
Kennedy, she lost her mom, her dad and then her brother Mother.
Wow. Poor Carol.
I know and apparently, Caroline, and John like weren't even on
speaking terms at this point, I think, because of all the
tension with Carolyn, wow, oh my God.
Why? Why is life so hard?
It's so cruel. But I can see why people want to
believe that he's still alive. It's just such a tragic death.
Yeah, it's so tragic. Just a beautiful man 2.
Yeah. Well Mount, you did an amazing
job. Because listening to his real
story, you know, just flowed perfectly.
Oh I'm happy to hear that because guys, I've had a storm
bad cop. So I feel like my breathing
hasn't been great this episode. So, no has asthma.
Hmm, I feel bad for me. I've been, it does have to do
with allergies. I feel like everyone's been
talking about how bad it's been like lately.
Well, because it barely it didn't even snow here in New
York, so I feel like we've had a longer spring.
Yeah, which is elongated that Allergy season.
So, all that mucus is just been building on my own songs.
They cannot take it. I hope it clears up some no, you
did great. Wow.
So next week, hopefully also, I'll be breathing a little bit
better next week. There's also some Scandal and
salaciousness, okay? Week's episode, we're going a
little internationally here. We're going to Bollywood honest.
Oh, okay. And it's a relationship.
That is very much. Did they did they not over at
all tree? All right.
If anyone has a guess, let us know.
And we love you all. Thank you so much for supporting
the podcast and will get back together next week.