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Are You Lonesome Tonight? 
Do you miss me tonight? 

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Are you sorry? 
We drifted does your mate guys. 

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Welcome to another episode of 
significant lovers where Kellen 

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Mel, we are cousins and we've 
been doing this since 2018, you 

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might know us from I'm a 
Twilight podcast called another 

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vital Twilight. 
Hmm. 

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Now we do this, show about 
romance, love, heartbreak 

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couples. 
And this is a podcast for 

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anybody who. 
Someone recently said this, who 

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feels like Love Comes easier to 
everybody else but themselves. 

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Yeah, it's not true, honey. 
It's not true. 

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Nope. 
Even for the Rich and Famous. 

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Yep. 
For the hi Lisa. 

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This is the cated for the stylus
for the you are and oh my gosh, 

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it's so hard for everybody. 
Nobody knows what they're doing 

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and this podcast has really made
me feel a lot less alone in this

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confusing life that we all have.
I feel like I've just felt such 

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compassion for people. 
Yeah yeah I mean everyone about 

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people. 
Yeah. 

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Like if you ever feel like 
you're messy like people have 

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been Messier and if you've ever 
I feel like you just went 

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through the worst breakup. 
Ever, someone's been through 

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worse worst and survived. 
Yep, I'm excited. 

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I'm so excited for today. 
It feels like it's been a while.

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I know. 
Yeah, yeah, one thing is a lot 

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of people have been getting a 
little bold telling us lately 

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about our voices. 
We just like for people or 

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three, I don't know. 
But it's weird because we did do

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a podcast for years, another 
bite of Twilight and no one ever

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said this to us. 
Maybe Twilight fans are just Mr.

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Beebop I guess this podcast 
reaches more people. 

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So, and I'm really grateful for 
all the new listeners we have. 

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We have really awesome new peeps
listening in on our patreon. 

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So thank you so much. 
But yeah, we have had a couple 

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of people criticizing us, so, 
you know, we don't need more of 

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it, we hear you, but this is who
we are, this is just how we 

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sound. 
So I'm not going to Speech 

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language pathologist. 
I'm not going to change my 

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voice. 
It's just how we talk. 

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And yep. 
Yeah someone said I sometimes 

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talk with a baby voice. 
You know I just have a youthful 

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voice. 
Exacts, just me. 

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And that person also said, which
this person said they, they said

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they were very sweet. 
And I don't want research. 

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Which oh, that's the part. 
I'm going to focus on. 

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Ya did say that it sounds like 
I'm chewing on my Invisalign. 

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I don't tell them. 
Yeah but we've got a ton of 

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super sweet messages and nice 
reviews and if you guys like the

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show, I'm going to be really 
appreciate review. 

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Yeah, but yeah it happens. 
But yeah did we don't need 

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anymore but of that we already 
know we hear you hopefully they 

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listen to this episode. 
Anyway anyways, so today's 

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episode it's a tough one it's a 
one that's been requested a few 

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times but it's quite Tragic who 
it is. 

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The love story of America's 
Prince JFK, jr. 

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The little boys, we think his 
father's casket, who could 

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forget him and his beautiful 
bride? 

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The mysterious Carolyn Bessette 
sorry, buddy, laughing, because 

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of the bravado, is very serious.
No, but I'm really excited. 

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I have always wanted to learn 
more about the Kennedys and, but

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I never really have feel like, 
I'd like to someday sit on the 

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beach with a big book about 
them. 

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Oh, yeah. 
But you're gonna teach me a lot,

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do I know anything? 
So, obviously there's a lot of 

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conspiracy theories about the 
Kennedy family and doing this 

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episode. 
It made me really understand why

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there's so many conspiracies 
because because I used to think 

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well it's a big family obviously
a lot of tragedy is going to 

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happen. 
If you have that many people in 

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your family like bad stuff 
happens to everyone, but what 

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are the odds? 
Is that like all these people in

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this one family, meet all these 
untimely tragic. 

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Yes, it's awful. 
Can't be a coincidence. 

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No, I mean, I bet there's like, 
like the JFK assassination. 

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Oh yeah, of course there's 
Atkins. 

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Like there's something Shady 
going on there. 

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Definitely. 
But for some reason that doesn't

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intrigue me as much. 
I don't know. 

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It's like I didn't treats me, 
but I have never looked too far 

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into it. 
My family went to Dallas. 

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Is couple years ago. 
And the only thing we did there 

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like the one thing we had to do 
my brother was like we have to 

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go to where JFK was 
assassinated. 

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It was actually so boring, like 
kind of weird that they made a 

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hole like a tourist attraction. 
They have a plaque about it or 

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anything. 
Yeah, they have a whole museum. 

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Oh wow. 
Whoa. 

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Interested, a very sad thing. 
Anyway, so this episode I used 

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the following Source material 
America's reluctant Prince, the 

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life of John F. 
Kennedy jr. 

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By Steven M Gillen. 
This is the book. 

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I probably use the most, okay? 
And then another book called, 

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what remains A Memoir of Fate 
friendship and Love by Carolina 

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Roswell, who is John's cousin's 
wife? 

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So John's cousin named Anthony, 
he'll come up. 

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This episode. 
Okay, that's it. 

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John's like best friend. 
Cousin, kind of like me and 

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Kelly. 
Oh, and she is now a housewife 

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on like one of those Housewives 
shows, you guys Moe really, mmm,

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what? 
And then, there's another book 

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called The Kennedy curse by 
Edward Klein, which I think is a

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little controversial, but I just
included. 

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There's a lot of salacious 
material and not as well. 

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Know how could you use them? 
Get out of here. 

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What three words would you use 
to describe this relationship? 

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I would say fire. 
Yuri. 

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Oh good. 
Looking nice and tragic ours. 

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Isn't it nice when they're good 
looking you know oh my God - all

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the different think I mean this 
episode really made me realize 

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to like just how much people 
love good-looking people. 

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Yeah. 
Because like even true you guys 

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might know that like there's a 
lot of conspiracies about JFK 

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jr. 
Specifically with q and on and 

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how they believe that he's 
secretly Live and he's been a 

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trump supporter, all the giant a
couple years ago. 

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They believed that he was like 
going to come out of a rally and

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like backup Trump and I was like
that's kind of cute that they 

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like really want to believe that
and I think it's because he's so

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good-looking. 
You're like yeah they're like we

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really want this guy to be on 
our side because yeah this 

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All-American hunky guy. 
I think that's part of the 

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appeal to Kennedy's. 
Yeah. 

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Like and I think people want to 
have a good-looking politician. 

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Oh 100. 
That's why. 

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Oh my gosh. 
That's why the Kennedys were So 

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popular. 
And then when JFK and Jackie, 

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hit the scene, like they were 
the most stylish presidential 

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car. 
Yeah. 

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Anyone had ever seen, and like, 
this is the first time that, 

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like, they had TVs, right? 
Showing the presidential family.

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Yeah. 
I mean, you have to be confident

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and it is unfair, but people 
definitely prefer a competent 

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person. 
Who is also nice to look at 

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exactly easy. 
On the eyes. 

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Makes all the difference. 
But yeah, I mean, you guys know 

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who JFK jr. 
Was, I don't know that much I 

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need. 
I need background. 

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Alright, so he, so he's 
obviously the son of the late 

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JFK and his wife, Jackie. 
He was in his mom's belly during

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the presidential campaign. 
Wow. 

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Her his dad, he was born 
premature on November 25th 1965 

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in Washington DC with an older 
sister Carolyn who's like three 

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years older than him. 
Him and he was the youngest 

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child to live in the White House
since ss-sir. 

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Kennedy in 1893. 
Oh, and Americans. 

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Just loved having kids in the 
white house. 

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It was so exciting to have a 
little baby in the White House. 

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TV was such a new medium at the 
time. 

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And so it's suddenly felt like 
it was this intertwining of 

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politics but also cultural 
stories like people liked to 

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feel close to The presidential 
family in a way that they had 

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never before. 
Yeah. 

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Makes sense like public interest
stories. 

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Yeah, politics, were crossing 
over. 

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His parents had a pretty 
troubled marriage JFK Was a 

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Serial cheater, and so he 
definitely took advantage of TV 

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to paint this wholesome image of
their family. 

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Darn it and he really relied on 
the two little kids John, who 

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went by John John and Carolyn 
for public support. 

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John Donne this. 
Author. 

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Stephen Gillen, says that there 
was a steady stream of 

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sanitized, images of a mythical 
portrait of the Kennedys that 

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represented the ideal American 
Family healthy happy and devoid 

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of conflict. 
But that obviously was not true 

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JFK. 
We can dream, he would go to 

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parties with Jackie and then go 
hook up with like an intern in. 

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The Next Room is really kind of 
sleazy. 

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You also had a lot of health 
problems to that. 

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People didn't know about. 
I know, I've people want us to 

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do them too. 
We probably will someday but I'm

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feel like it's gonna be a downer
but I do things like they still 

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loved each other, like Jackie's 
told ya to him in would just 

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turn a blind eye. 
Like there was a sense of 

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acceptance with it. 
Yeah, so much cheating. 

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I know. 
But John John, and his dad did 

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have a pretty silly relationship
for the couple of years that 

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they knew each other. 
He would hide underneath his 

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dad's desk and he would sneak 
secretly, take gum from him 

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because Jackie wouldn't let him 
chew gum. 

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Hmm and Jackie was also very 
protective If Mom of John and 

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Carolyn but she did really want 
her kids to live a normal life 

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and she frequently would fight 
with the photographers, and with

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the press and also with the 
Secret Service, and she was just

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really easy Clash with them 
about how involved the Secret 

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Service were to be in their 
life. 

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Like even one time, John had 
almost drowned in a pool, and 

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Jackie got mad at the Secret 
Service because she didn't want 

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them to help save the kids from 
drowning, because she saw that 

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as her responsibilities as a 
mom. 

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You're sitting and she said that
the Secret Service could only 

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step in if someone was trying to
kidnap or take the kids away, 

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what they couldn't intervene 
like normal accidents. 

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That it could happen to every 
other child see. 

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I mean, I guess I see what she's
saying, but you'd think that, if

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they were gonna die, you know, 
he'll know exactly. 

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But thankfully he didn't drown. 
Mmm. 

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What? 
Well, I think people know, I 

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mean, his life was really marked
by tragedy very early on because

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as, you know, his father, JFK 
was assassinated when John was 

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only just shy of three years 
old, very famous picture of 

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straw, and saluting his dad's 
casket. 

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And this author Stephen Gillen 
wrote that Salute by that little

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boy in the blue at his father's 
casket. 

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Cemented the belief that John 
would be the natural heir to his

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father's Legacy. 
One of John's Great greatest 

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achievements was the ability to 
Except those expectations with 

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enormous Grace, while never 
allowing them to distort, his 

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core sense of self. 
So people always saw him as 

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like, a prince in a way that I 
don't know. 

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I almost feel like he loved 
reading this book. 

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He was like Hamlet or Simba. 
Yeah, you feel just expected 

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that some day. 
He was going to take over for 

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his father and be president. 
And of course, like he even had 

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the same name, right? 
And so there was just a huge 

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burden, placed on him at a very 
young age. 

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I do think people do kind of 
see. 

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The Kennedys is an American 
royalty. 

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You yeah. 
Definitely. 

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I mean, they like this just 
wasn't closeness and familiarity

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with them. 
Yeah, after his father died, it 

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was pretty traumatic for him. 
The family had to move three 

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times and that next year and his
mom was very unavailable because

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she was so depressed with the 
grief of her husband dying. 

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And he was described as very 
restless and rambunctious and 

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mischievous and some speculate 
that was maybe an outgrowth of 

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the trauma that he experienced. 
I know that he had been on 

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00:12:58,900 --> 00:13:01,900
Ritalin from a very young age, 
seems like he had ADHD or 

228
00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:05,000
something. 
And he was just very kind of a 

229
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,700
Class Clown, I guess you could 
say, he had a lot of cousins. 

230
00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:11,100
That was really close with, 
especially as cousin, Anthony 

231
00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:14,700
radziwill. 
And his mom side him, my cousin,

232
00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:16,800
you and your cousin's. 
His mom. 

233
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,900
Also, like in the For JFK dying,
she really projected that idea 

234
00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:25,400
of Camelot. 
So the American people which 

235
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,000
came from a quote that she had 
said, like, for a brief second. 

236
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,200
There was Camelot, which meant 
that all was perfect. 

237
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:39,500
If JFK had just not died, just 
like ideal way of life for the 

238
00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:41,300
American, people would still be 
going on. 

239
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,800
And again, this author said that
JFK jr. 

240
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,700
Symbolized, a lost world. 
A world switch, many Americans, 

241
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:48,800
wish to return. 
Turn. 

242
00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:51,500
Underlying this desire was a 
belief that John Would One Day 

243
00:13:51,500 --> 00:13:53,900
lead the nation back to the 
promised land a time, that 

244
00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:56,900
existed more people's 
imaginations than in reality. 

245
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:04,000
And so with that idea of Camelot
placed upon the legacy of JFK it

246
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,300
inadvertently burdened, the 
expectations on to JFK jr. 

247
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,200
That like some day he would 
carry out this. 

248
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,600
Yes, reality people could go 
back to especially with the 

249
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,700
Nostalgia for the 1950s. 
Right? 

250
00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:23,000
And he experienced a lot of 
other trauma than his uncle. 

251
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,200
Bobby. 
Kennedy was later. 

252
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,800
Assassinated when John was only 
seven years old, which was 

253
00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:30,900
probably even more traumatic, 
because he actually knew Bobby 

254
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:35,000
and he had kind of stepped up 
like a second father to him. 

255
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,300
That's insane. 
Wow. 

256
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:41,400
And then like there's obviously 
a lot of fear that like the kids

257
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,600
weren't safe, and something was 
going to happen to them, and it 

258
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,600
just created this huge sense of 
anxiety. 

259
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:52,500
It throughout the rest of his 
childhood, I bet. 

260
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:57,700
But some speckled ODOT caused 
him to live on the edge even 

261
00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:00,600
more because he almost had this 
fearlessness about him. 

262
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,300
Hmm. 
I could die anytime. 

263
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,600
Okay, yeah, he had the sense of 
like, anything, really matters, 

264
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:10,000
man. 
And he also has mom remarried 

265
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,600
when he was tween. 
I don't know, the specifics, but

266
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,900
to a man named Aristotle 
Aristotle Onassis who was This 

267
00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:23,100
really rich Greek man. 
I'm on the only really did 

268
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:24,300
businessman. 
Yeah. 

269
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,700
And John had a somewhat 
complicated relationship with 

270
00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:31,600
him, but he also died when John 
was only 15 years old? 

271
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,500
She and actually, John's 
stepbrother through that 

272
00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:39,800
marriage re actually died in a 
plane crash when John was 13. 

273
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:43,300
She's a lot of fucked. 
Yeah, a lot of tragic things. 

274
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,100
Excuse my language. 
But yeah. 

275
00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:54,200
So then as a teenager, John 
attended Phillips Academy where 

276
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,900
he studied acting and he wanted 
to study acting professionally 

277
00:15:57,900 --> 00:15:59,900
in college. 
But Jackie wouldn't let him. 

278
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:03,000
She actually submitted his 
college application to Brown 

279
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,800
University where he studied 
pre-law, he also played rugby 

280
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,400
and was in a frat and acted in a
few plays know. 

281
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,100
He was an actor. 
Yo, it was really a renaissance 

282
00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:18,100
man, lot of different things. 
He was just grabbed in school as

283
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:22,700
having attention deficit, being 
popular, warm, and funny humble 

284
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,700
adventurous. 
A lover of life. 

285
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,600
You know, Roenick sense of humor
and love telling stories. 

286
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,300
He didn't take himself too 
seriously handsome, a gym buff, 

287
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,500
what working on his body. 
Never met a mirror who didn't 

288
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:40,300
leg 61 with rock salt. 
Okay? 

289
00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:46,000
Throw good sexual, he loved 
getting facials. 

290
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,800
Mm-hmm. 
He was just extremely patient 

291
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,800
with people like people would 
come up and grab him and talked 

292
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,500
about him. 
Some people would even Heckle 

293
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,400
him like, say bad things about 
his dad. 

294
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,100
He never really reacted to it. 
He kind of had a chill dude. 

295
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,600
It seems I'm really popular guy.
I definitely. 

296
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,000
But in a good way. 
Yeah. 

297
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,300
And a good way like he was the 
kind of popular guy, that's like

298
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:09,300
still nice to people that's 
nice. 

299
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,599
And before dating Carolyn, he 
was a little bit of a womanizer,

300
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:21,500
he'd often overlap with his 
girlfriend's Woman as a woman as

301
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,300
a woman, but I guess his 
reasoning for that was to throw 

302
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,599
off the press. 
I wouldn't know who he was 

303
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,300
dating, but he always had to 
seem like he was in a 

304
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:32,100
relationship, and some people 
wouldn't Hound him. 

305
00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:36,100
I feel like that's just an 
excuse, but he did Madonna for 

306
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:39,700
six months in the 80s. 
What I guess you later, so that 

307
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:42,300
he had a frightening temper. 
Mmm. 

308
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,000
And he in the mid nineties, had 
a really serious relationship. 

309
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:48,900
With an actress, Christina. 
Hag her Hague. 

310
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,500
She also dated Sarah Jessica, 
Parker, 46 months in the 90s, I 

311
00:17:53,508 --> 00:17:56,500
didn't know that. 
Hmm, and what? 

312
00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:01,100
Yeah, and then he dated Daryl, 
Hannah the actress from that 

313
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:06,200
movie Steel Magnolias. 
Oh, I've never seen it was 

314
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,300
having an easier time talking. 
Okay, so then who is Carolyn, 

315
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:17,800
Carolyn Carolyn really confusing
because There's Carole 

316
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,100
radziwill, who wrote that book. 
Yeah. 

317
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:24,100
And there's also his sister 
Caroline and then there's Carol 

318
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:27,900
in, that is confused. 
So these Carol Carolyn, Carolyn 

319
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:32,200
these women are really gonna 
cause some Susan. 

320
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:37,300
This episode Caroline was born 
on January 7th, 1966, in White, 

321
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:39,300
Plains, New York. 
I guess that makes her a 

322
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:41,900
Capricorn. 
She was very into astrology. 

323
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:44,900
Actually, when always guess 
people sign, we met them. 

324
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,700
So, Important to her, we all 
know, someone like that and 

325
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,500
don't we, she liked to read 
people, her dad. 

326
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:57,900
William was a kitchen designer 
and her mom was a school admin 

327
00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:00,500
and she had two older sisters, 
who were twins Lisa. 

328
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:04,500
And Lauren, there were two years
older than her and when she was 

329
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:07,600
just six years old, her parents 
divorce, and her dad had left 

330
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:09,200
her mom. 
And I don't think she had a 

331
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,000
close relationship with him 
after that. 

332
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,900
And then her mom remarried in 
1973 to a chief of Orthopedics. 

333
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,500
Surgery and the family moved to 
Old Greenwich. 

334
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:22,800
Connecticut fancy and Karen went
to st. 

335
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,400
Mary's High School in 
Connecticut and she was voted 

336
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,900
the ultimate beautiful person. 
She was remembered as being 

337
00:19:28,900 --> 00:19:32,000
incredibly sweet and dated the 
star of the football player. 

338
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,300
She was very, very popular. 
Whoa. 

339
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,300
Okay. 
We got two popular kids. 

340
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,500
Yes. 
So then she went to Boston 

341
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:44,200
University and her reputation 
wasn't good there. 

342
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,900
Why? 
I don't know. 

343
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,100
No, I don't know. 
There's no way. 

344
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,800
Okay. 
Like there's been a lot of 

345
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,000
negative stuff about Carolyn in 
this episode, and it makes me 

346
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,900
feel bad because she died so 
young and like, uh, it's like, 

347
00:19:57,900 --> 00:19:59,900
she never got a chance to tell 
her son. 

348
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,900
And then I was, yeah, I took an 
edible and when I'm done after 

349
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,300
putting all this research 
together, and I was getting 

350
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:11,000
really paranoid, like, not to go
back to the conspiracies, but 

351
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,900
what I want to hear it. 
I don't know what the Kennedy 

352
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:17,300
family has just so much power 
and influence. 

353
00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:21,300
Like is it possible that they 
for whatever reason would have 

354
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:24,300
wanted to paint Carolyn in a 
negative light? 

355
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,100
Oh do you think this information
came out after she was with him 

356
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:31,300
or after? 
Well, I died. 

357
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,100
A lot of it did. 
Come out while she was with him 

358
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:34,800
too. 
Okay. 

359
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,800
But I don't know if that's just 
because their relationship was 

360
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,100
breaking down so much. 
And like do you think it's 

361
00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:41,200
possible? 
They like wanted her to seem 

362
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,000
like a bad guy in the 
relationship. 

363
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,300
It's Isabel reminding me of you.
Like you know that family and 

364
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:50,100
the show you who's season. 
Yeah. 

365
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:52,100
Where it's like they have so 
much influence and they can. 

366
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,600
Yeah. 
They can just get a guy and like

367
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,400
change the story. 
Yeah. 

368
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,100
Making these possible. 
I felt the same way in the 

369
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:03,100
Maryland episode because it was 
so sad that she died, but then I

370
00:21:03,108 --> 00:21:11,800
was like, oh yeah, she was 
cheating, It's just sad because 

371
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,600
it's like she died. 
I'm not to jump have like she 

372
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,700
died when she was so young that,
like, at that age, you are 

373
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:20,500
really messy. 
And there is, yeah. 

374
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,500
Stuff that you're figuring out 
and like mmm to die at a time, 

375
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:24,700
like that. 
Like, you just never really get 

376
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,500
the chance to look back at your 
life and be like, wow, I was 

377
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:29,900
really. 
Yeah, in a rough place that or, 

378
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:32,300
you know, I made some mistakes 
like just don't have that 

379
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:34,500
perspective that you would later
on. 

380
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:37,800
So, totally. 
I think that people don't know 

381
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,200
what they're doing in their 
early twenties. 

382
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,200
Yeah, as someone who is not that
far from it, I don't even like 

383
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,500
people that kind of overlap 
relationships and stuff. 

384
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,300
It's like, they're just figuring
it. 

385
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:52,000
Exactly. 
It's not like the worst sin in 

386
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,000
the world. 
Yeah, but anyway, what was the 

387
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,100
reputation? 
Like, was she bullying? 

388
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,600
People was, she was also, she 
wasn't in any clubs or didn't 

389
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,000
Esports, and that's not a big 
deal. 

390
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,500
She never made Dean's List, who 
cares? 

391
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:07,500
That's fine. 
Yeah, but she, she was very much

392
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:09,900
known for her active social 
life, dating a lot of 

393
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:15,300
influential men on campus and 
people, Describe her as a 

394
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:23,900
boyfriend stealer. 
Oh, I guess a friend she worked 

395
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:26,700
with remembered that. 
She had one time said. 

396
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,600
Well a friend said, that didn't 
matter if the men that she 

397
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,500
desired, we're already in 
relationships, Carolyn had 

398
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,000
apparently once plotted to steal
her boyfriend. 

399
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,000
So her friends friend her 
friend's boyfriend, who was a 

400
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,800
hockey player and she would 
pretend to be humble and then 

401
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,300
turn around and be a complete 
snob. 

402
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,800
When she was hanging out with 
the fashion people. 

403
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,000
Oh, and while I'd be you, she 
worked at the Calvin. 

404
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,700
Klein store in Chestnut. 
Hill, run that she worked with. 

405
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,300
Remembers that. 
She asked who her dream guy was 

406
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:57,700
in? 
Carolyn responded. 

407
00:22:57,700 --> 00:22:58,900
John F. 
Kennedy jr. 

408
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:01,300
I'm going to get him. 
I'm going to move to New York 

409
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:05,300
and I'm gonna get him. 
How do people always do this? 

410
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:11,300
It's crazy or manifestation. 
Wow, you know. 

411
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:14,400
Okay, that's really shitty of 
her and I'm Not excusing it 

412
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,500
people but she probably was 
really insecure mmm because I'm 

413
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,000
the reason people act that way. 
Yeah exactly. 

414
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,800
It gives them a Power Trip. 
Yeah. 

415
00:23:23,700 --> 00:23:28,700
But deep down she was probably 
so insecure about herself that 

416
00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:30,800
she had to put up this fake 
self. 

417
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,000
Yeah, that makes me really sad 
though because she was so 

418
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,100
beautiful especially to be voted
by her. 

419
00:23:36,100 --> 00:23:38,600
High school is the ultimate 
beautiful person that's true. 

420
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,900
Why are sometimes? 
I don't know, but maybe he's a 

421
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:43,300
lot of people who are always 
regard. 

422
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,900
For their looks like they don't 
know what else to fall back on. 

423
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,300
Yeah, yeah, yeah true. 
I mean, she might need constant 

424
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:53,000
validation that people still 
think she's attractive. 

425
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,600
Yeah. 
It's still working. 

426
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:56,500
Blah blah blah. 
That's so true. 

427
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,200
You know, I guess when asked 
what she wanted to do with her 

428
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:00,900
life, she said I want to be 
famous. 

429
00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:03,600
Maybe if I hook up at the right 
guy I'm going to be famous. 

430
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,700
I mean, yeah, I famous you can 
sell this for a million dollars 

431
00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:15,500
because I'm gonna be fine. 
That's from Degrassi. 

432
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,500
So she received her degree in 
early childhood education. 

433
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:21,600
Didn't really use that though. 
Because after graduation, she 

434
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,500
did marketing for clubs and 
continue to work at the Calvin 

435
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:28,000
Klein store where she's been 
spotted by the president of 

436
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,500
Calvin. 
Klein Calvin. 

437
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:33,000
Klein's women's collection and 
he invited her to move to New 

438
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,200
York. 
What? 

439
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,600
Have a job? 
A company accommodating 

440
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,900
celebrity clients is because 
she's gonna be oh my God. 

441
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:42,400
She just had this Essence about 
her. 

442
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,600
That was so. 
Attractive to people. 

443
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,400
And she wasn't intimidated by 
any celebrities. 

444
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,600
She just acted very nonchalant 
and chill around them. 

445
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:54,900
How did she get this confident 
mean? 

446
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:58,400
It sounds like her parents were 
wealthy but like, kitchen 

447
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,100
designer. 
I don't get it. 

448
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:06,200
I'm not sure if she had, she had
a little bit of a fiery 

449
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,200
personality. 
So before dating John, she had 

450
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,000
been in a relationship with the 
Calvin. 

451
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,300
Klein model named, Michael 
bergeon, And wow. 

452
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:20,300
In this one article with the 
writer of that book, The Kennedy

453
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,800
curse. 
He had apparently said there was

454
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,600
one time. 
When Carolyn saw me at a bar 

455
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,700
lighting, a cigarette for an 
ex-girlfriend Carolyn came over 

456
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:30,600
pushed the girl out of the way 
and my face and screamed and 

457
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,700
yelled at me and even drew a 
little blood from my face. 

458
00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:36,700
I went home and two minutes 
later, Carolyn was at my door. 

459
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,200
I had to let her in or she would
have knocked the whole building 

460
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,500
down. 
I had these tall heavy religious

461
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:44,800
candle. 
Candles and she threw one 

462
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,500
through the window smashing the 
window pane and another at the 

463
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:51,600
mirror above the fireplace 
mantle, which shattered then she

464
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,800
knocked the television set and 
BCR onto the floor and jumped on

465
00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:05,800
my VCR in squash dib oh my God I
just pried the money rest in 

466
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:11,300
peace I know I just but that's 
so imagine I know it's really 

467
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:14,900
loud. 
Breaking Windows. 

468
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,500
Wow. 
Well, you know, it's 

469
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:18,200
entertaining. 
Yep, for us. 

470
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,600
It is, I guess. 
Thanks for them. 

471
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:25,400
She's in. 
D.c. are that's how he's a lot 

472
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:26,400
of. 
Yeah. 

473
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:30,600
If you knew someone like that 
I'm sorry you would not stand. 

474
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,200
I'm probably. 
So, but I think that kind of 

475
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,000
personality like really 
attracted John to her because he

476
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,600
liked a little wild side and 
yeah, because yeah, it's who he 

477
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,500
loves to live on. 
The I right, he probably liked 

478
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:50,300
that so they met at a Paul 
Newman, charity event and I'm 

479
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,700
not really sure since Carolyn 
had said that she always wanted 

480
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:56,600
to meet him. 
Like I wonder if she's somehow 

481
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,000
like met someone threw her job 
and like arranged for them to me

482
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,500
at the TV. 
Just seems to serendipitous wow 

483
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:05,900
incidents but they're both 
somewhat in relationships. 

484
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:09,200
So Carolyn was dating that 
Calvin Klein model, Michael, 

485
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,400
burgeon kind of a new 
relationship and John had been 

486
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,700
In a relationship with Daryl. 
Hannah, the Steel Magnolias 

487
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:19,300
actress. 
I bet that didn't stop either of

488
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:25,100
them didn't John was instantly 
attracted to Carolyn's 

489
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:28,900
mesmerizing charm and how 
independently minded she was and

490
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:31,900
not afraid to voice opinions 
without seeming nervous around 

491
00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:33,000
him. 
Hmm. 

492
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,200
This Vanity Fair article by 
Edward. 

493
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,200
Klein says, John once told a 
friend I'm attracted to 

494
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,700
strong-willed women like my 
mother very before you doing, 

495
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:44,200
okay. 
Alan was not just a 

496
00:27:44,208 --> 00:27:47,600
strong-willed woman, she could 
be demanding domineering, and 

497
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,500
according to even her best 
friends, downright bitchy, some 

498
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:54,300
people felt that John overlooked
her faults because he was 

499
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:58,100
blinded by her glamorous Jackie 
O style, and her own edgy. 

500
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:01,200
Modern Way, Carolyn was as 
chicest Jackie, she dressed with

501
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,200
the simple Elegance. 
That John adored like The Ether 

502
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,300
will Jackie Carolyn, affected an
air of mystery and 

503
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:11,000
unavailability which drove the 
media crazy and sustained the 

504
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,100
public frenzy. 
That John found, exciting and 

505
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:15,200
fun. 
And like, Jackie Carolyn was 

506
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,900
very controlling which made me 
feel protected and cared for 

507
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,700
downright bitchy. 
But after meeting at that 

508
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:29,100
charity event, John then went to
the Calvin, Klein store, and got

509
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:32,200
styled by her and he purchased 
three suits. 

510
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,100
Wow. 
And then, he even asked her on a

511
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,800
date, he got tickets to a play, 
but Carolyn actually got stuck 

512
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,500
at work and never called never 
showed up. 

513
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:43,800
She stood. 
I'm up. 

514
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,700
Oh my God. 
Hot really attracted even more 

515
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,000
because he's used to women 
throwing themselves at him. 

516
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,900
And then suddenly this woman is 
acting. 

517
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:56,700
Like she doesn't really care at 
all that, but she actually did 

518
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,000
care. 
I feel like that should be a red

519
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,700
flag button, whatever. 
Yeah. 

520
00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:03,000
Like, apparently Carolyn would 
tell her friends. 

521
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,100
Like, oh, I don't care about 
him. 

522
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:06,400
And then she would stay home and
like, sit by the phone, and wait

523
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,400
for it, right? 
Of course, and then so, Carole, 

524
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,000
radziwill, Anthony's wife, Was 
that one time they were all at 

525
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,600
their summer house? 
I don't forget where it was, 

526
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,800
maybe in the Caper somewhere and
she saw Carolyn like sneak out 

527
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,700
of John's room one night. 
But apparently that was very 

528
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:29,300
short lived, because then they 
both went back to their 

529
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,000
perspective relationship. 
Strong captivating, Daryl Hannah

530
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,400
for the next two years and two 
years. 

531
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,500
Mmm, and Carolyn kept dating her
boyfriend. 

532
00:29:40,500 --> 00:29:45,300
Michael Michael bergeon, I'm 
virgin, I like that name. 

533
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,600
So they stayed in touch though, 
like they were kind of in 

534
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,500
similar orbits, I think jono's 
kept tabs on Carolyn to see what

535
00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:56,100
she was up to keep her on the 
back burner. 

536
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,000
Yep. 
Keep kept keep her as an option.

537
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,800
So that it's 1994. 
And sadly Jackie was diagnosed 

538
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:10,000
with Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma and 
she had a very short battle with

539
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,300
that. 
And she had died in May, which 

540
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:16,700
Really affected John and that 
put a huge strain on his 

541
00:30:16,700 --> 00:30:20,600
relationship with his 
girlfriend, Daryl Hannah because

542
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:26,500
and I feel bad for Daryl because
her dog had just died and then 

543
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,400
her other dog was dying. 
And she was so distracted. 

544
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,500
By that, there's John was really
mad that he couldn't, she wasn't

545
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,600
really there for him. 
When his mom was dying, which I 

546
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,600
totally get like, that's even, 
yeah, yeah, I just feel bad 

547
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,400
cause like, might like my dog 
had just tied, that is very 

548
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,200
emotional and I feel like she 
just like, couldn't control her 

549
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,500
emotions. 
Yeah. 

550
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,200
Why are we both are dogs dying 
at the same time? 

551
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,100
I know. 
So I guess like one of the 

552
00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:57,100
Jackie's last weekend's she made
John, like, come to a funeral 

553
00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:01,800
for the dog and like, I really 
pissed him off, I guess, but he 

554
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,900
didn't even really know that 
Jackie was going to die. 

555
00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:07,900
But that just put a huge strain 
relationship and it made him 

556
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:11,400
realize like how he wants to 
settle down and be with someone 

557
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,200
serious. 
Yeah, I don't know. 

558
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,900
Like Carolyn reminds him of his 
mom there, but it seems like 

559
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:19,600
that was a turning point in his 
romantic life. 

560
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:22,300
Well, I think, when really 
serious huge things like that 

561
00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:25,100
happen, you do kind of evaluate 
your whole life and it puts 

562
00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:28,100
things into perspective. 
Yeah, exactly since. 

563
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:33,000
So then he broke it off with 
Darryl and started chasing after

564
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,700
Carolyn. 
Wow, he heard that she liked to 

565
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:37,700
party a lot. 
And he asked a mutual friend to 

566
00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:41,400
investigate and the friend, went
back to him and says, she does, 

567
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,000
a lot of coke. 
She stays out, Late at night, 

568
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,300
she gets with a lot of different
guys and he told John to be 

569
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:50,800
careful, but John ignored the 
advice I'm not told Karen what 

570
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:56,800
the friend said. 
Well, how did this friend do 

571
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,300
that? 
I don't know. 

572
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,700
I think John's got eyes and ears
everywhere. 

573
00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:05,000
Did somebody actually physically
go to these parties and observe 

574
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:17,100
how much influence? 
Sometimes I want to be a spy I 

575
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:19,400
know. 
Let's try to be a private 

576
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,700
investigator. 
Yeah I know we can be dangerous 

577
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:28,900
but yeah it's maybe spy think is
dangerous but being a private 

578
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:30,400
investigator. 
I don't know. 

579
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,900
I think I'll be a step ahead. 
It's a lot of waiting and ya 

580
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:41,000
know our grand prix are change. 
My parents hired a private 

581
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,000
investigator one time. 
Both of our grandparents. 

582
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,900
Yeah, our mutual grandparents, 
why? 

583
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:52,200
Because our aunt was getting 
cheated on. 

584
00:32:52,300 --> 00:32:56,300
Oh, I didn't know they did that.
You didn't know not say that on 

585
00:32:56,300 --> 00:32:58,700
the show. 
It's fine. 

586
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:03,900
I thought my mom does acted as a
private investigator. 

587
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:07,000
No, they hired. 
Wow maybe I shouldn't say. 

588
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,100
So why do they need an 
additional? 

589
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:19,700
Additional coverage by my mom. 
I know it's bad to be like, nosy

590
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:24,400
and stalking someone, but I, I 
think it's foreign today. 

591
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,400
Someone's having an affair? 
Yeah, I have the urge to do 

592
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,600
something like that, right now, 
is there such a no? 

593
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,300
There isn't a security, but I 
just want something like that to

594
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:35,900
happen and then I can 
investigate. 

595
00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:38,400
Yeah. 
But I would want to do it for 

596
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:43,200
some Like a party that I'm not 
as emotionally invested in the, 

597
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,100
don't hate to be investigating 
for a friend in and have to 

598
00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:48,700
break the news to her. 
That you're getting cheated on. 

599
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:51,500
Yeah. 
It would be fun to be involved 

600
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,800
in a stranger situation. 
Yeah, I think I just haven't had

601
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,500
anything that suspicious 
happened. 

602
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,800
In within my Social Circle 
model. 

603
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,200
Yeah, that's a good thing. 
That's very funny. 

604
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,000
I think I'm Carolyn was like 
shouldn't hang out with a friend

605
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,000
anymore. 
She was very offended and 

606
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:13,800
anyway, Sean considered her, the
first girlfriend who he could 

607
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,900
see beyond the veneer who could 
see beyond the veneer of his 

608
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:21,100
Fame and celebrity and then and 
that's November John introduced 

609
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:26,500
Carolyn to his sister Caroline 
and her husband, Ed and Carol 

610
00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:30,199
rats as well. 
Says that this interaction was 

611
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,199
awkward and that Carolyn gave 
John a warm hug and then just 

612
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:38,100
said to Carolyn nice to meet you
and that Carolyn supposed 

613
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:40,699
Caroline supposedly didn't like 
that. 

614
00:34:40,699 --> 00:34:45,500
Carolyn was a big partier in 
very opinionated like she kind 

615
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:47,600
of already got off on the wrong 
foot with the family. 

616
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,500
I see that things were getting 
pretty serious very soon that 

617
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:55,699
spring Carolyn moved into John's
Tribeca Apartment, his tribe, 

618
00:34:55,699 --> 00:35:01,900
lepke and toes. 
And then that summer for the 

619
00:35:01,900 --> 00:35:04,300
Fourth of July, they went to 
Martha's Vineyard and John 

620
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:07,400
invited Carolyn to go fishing. 
And she was not a nature girl. 

621
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,600
She didn't like fishing, she 
really didn't want to go. 

622
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,300
Hmm, But she did. 
And then on the boat John got 

623
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:15,900
down on one knee and said 
fishing, is so much better with 

624
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,000
a partner and pulled out a 
replica of his mother's 

625
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,400
engagement ring. 
Wow. 

626
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,400
And Carolyn didn't say yes right
away. 

627
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:28,100
But 04 the ring anyway, I told 
friends that they'd eventually 

628
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:31,600
get Married and apparently she 
just wasn't in a hurry. 

629
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,200
She was only 29 years old and 
Carole radziwill. 

630
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,200
Theorized that Carolyn would 
have preferred to be secretly 

631
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,300
engaged forever without having 
to actually get married. 

632
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,400
And she thought that the fantasy
would be better than the reality

633
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,900
of interesting surprise. 
And she was so crazy about him. 

634
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:51,700
I know, I guess you really 
worried about the expectations 

635
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:55,100
that would be placed on her when
she got with him. 

636
00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,700
Hmm and she really worried that 
he Are her as a replica of his 

637
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:03,800
own mom and she would say to 
him, I'll never be your mother, 

638
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,000
which is a lot. 
I mean, she didn't want to have 

639
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,600
to be Jackie O to the public. 
Yeah, I can picture this so 

640
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,600
well. 
Just on the ocean is like, an 

641
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,300
American flag Rippling off the 
boat. 

642
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:20,100
Probably was really American. 
Yeah. 

643
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:24,100
And I guess he saw marriage as a
gateway to living, a more normal

644
00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:27,100
life and thinking that the Press
would lose interest in him. 

645
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,100
I could see why. 
You think that? 

646
00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:32,400
Yeah, didn't really happen that 
way at all. 

647
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:37,600
And then three weeks later, 
Carolyn officially accepted the 

648
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,000
proposal and they only told a 
few close friends, but did the 

649
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,300
word get out? 
Yes. 

650
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:45,900
Event on Labor Day. 
The New York Post, ran a story 

651
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:47,800
with a close-up shot of her 
ring. 

652
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,000
Just days before. 
John was going to announce the 

653
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,200
launch of his new magazine. 
George. 

654
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,200
Oh, which this magazine was a 
long time coming for him. 

655
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,700
It was this idea. 
Cool. 

656
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:02,700
Bridging not a gossip news 
stories but public interest some

657
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:06,400
new stories with politics and 
style and fashion just putting 

658
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,900
that all together. 
It's reminds me of Nate on 

659
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:11,400
Gossip Girl. 
When he randomly launched today 

660
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,700
space for me, literally The 
Spectator. 

661
00:37:15,500 --> 00:37:17,300
Yeah. 
Like it's gossip but more 

662
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:18,900
serious. 
Yeah, I know that will literally

663
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,700
yeah, because Nate was supposed 
to be from a family like that. 

664
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,200
Of the magazine which I don't 
feel like I could help the Maxi.

665
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,000
I know, right? 
I don't know. 

666
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,100
So they wanted to sink the 
story. 

667
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:02,400
So John had his assistant 
Rosemarie, deny the engagement 

668
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:09,600
and say that it was just a 
promise ring classic, what is 

669
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,100
it? 
These promise wrath. 

670
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,600
But that's why I think that 
maybe celebrities really are 

671
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,400
engaged, but they say there, 
it's a promise rings to throw 

672
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:24,100
the public on, maybe because who
actually does mmm this day and 

673
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:26,900
age. 
I thought all press is good. 

674
00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:29,500
Press I don't me too. 
I thought that would just draw 

675
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:35,600
more attention. 
So yeah, the assistant said once

676
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,000
again, John Kennedy seems to be 
bearing the brunt of a slow news

677
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,900
day. 
The story circulating regarding 

678
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:44,400
an engagement are untrue. 
He's not engaged while it is, 

679
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,900
not our habit to comment on 
John's personal life. 

680
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,200
The story seems to have taken a 
life of its own, and we feel it 

681
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,400
necessary to respond, which I 
think draws more Intrigue to it,

682
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,500
like, you know, That's really 
mysterious that you have to come

683
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:01,300
out and deny this story. 
Yeah, and I guess Carolyn was 

684
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:03,300
not happy about it but she 
understood. 

685
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:05,900
Yeah, I wouldn't be either. 
But then it makes you wonder 

686
00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:08,600
like, oh, I things Rocky like 
what's going on. 

687
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,900
Yeah. 
So what did you expect? 

688
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:12,700
If you're wearing the ring? 
I know. 

689
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,600
Hmm, I just get stuck on the 
last episodes we did. 

690
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,000
But did I mean, Jon, and Katie 
were engaging. 

691
00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:21,600
I know that that does make me 
wonder. 

692
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,000
Who else had a problem is 
occurring only think. 

693
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,900
Oh, what was it? 
Robin FKA twigs? 

694
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:29,500
Yeah, they were really engaged. 
They were really engaged. 

695
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:32,900
But yeah, I think before the 
news came out, they did say it 

696
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:34,700
was a promise ring. 
Oh my God. 

697
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:36,600
They must have been just 
engaged. 

698
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,500
But so there's evidence that 
their relationship was pretty 

699
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:47,500
Rocky, also early on. 
So in February of 1996, in 

700
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:51,500
Washington Square Park, there 
was an Infamous event where they

701
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:56,300
spotted publicly fighting, so 
they had been walking their dog 

702
00:39:56,300 --> 00:40:00,300
Friday and holding hands and 
then Carolyn stopped in her 

703
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:02,200
tracks and started yelling at 
John. 

704
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:06,100
And then he started yelling at 
her with his finger, in his, in 

705
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:09,100
her face, and she grabbed the 
back of his neck. 

706
00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:13,100
And then he grabbed her wrist 
and they were wrestling in front

707
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:17,500
of people. 
So New York and then she tried 

708
00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,700
to, he tried to rip her 
engagement ring from her finger.

709
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,100
Oh my God. 
And then she tried to leave with

710
00:40:23,100 --> 00:40:26,700
the dog and John shouted, you've
got my ring, you're not getting 

711
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:29,900
my dog. 
And then, after Carolyn was 

712
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:32,800
seen, consoling him on the curb 
and then they left holding. 

713
00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:35,300
Hands. 
But there's even footage of this

714
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,100
happening. 
And well, I got us a lot of some

715
00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:39,100
point. 
Hmm. 

716
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,900
And apparently John had been 
casually invited to be the best 

717
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:46,700
man in a wedding of a guy that 
he barely knew. 

718
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,400
And they had been seated next to
a New York Times editor at that 

719
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,500
wedding. 
And so Carolyn, you know, 

720
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:57,400
presumed that the only reason he
was even invited to the wedding 

721
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,500
in the first place was so that 
the bride could get a story 

722
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:02,300
written about her in the New 
York Times. 

723
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:05,400
Carolyn always thought that 
people were just using John for 

724
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,800
his Fame and his notoriety. 
And she felt like people were 

725
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,000
always taking advantage of him 
and she got mad that he didn't 

726
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,200
storm out of the wedding to make
a big stink about it. 

727
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:16,500
Hmm. 
She always thought that he 

728
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:18,900
wasn't sticking up for himself. 
I don't know why they're get. 

729
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:22,600
So riled up about that though. 
I know that is interesting. 

730
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,100
The he went through with it. 
I know my best man for someone. 

731
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:28,200
He hardly knew. 
I know. 

732
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,600
I don't think that he suspected 
that it was a, the person had 

733
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,400
ulterior motives till he. 
I was actually at the wedding. 

734
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,200
Wow. 
But then he was nice about it 

735
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,700
and stayed, and she got mad that
he didn't storm out, but I mean,

736
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:45,000
that would be way worse. 
Yeah, he is aware that he has to

737
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,700
keep up his reputation. 
You can't look ungrateful or 

738
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:54,600
whatever for his privilege and 
celebrity, so, yeah, but that 

739
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,800
really bothered her. 
But during this time, they're 

740
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,400
also planning their wedding. 
And secret, which is planned for

741
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,700
September and Carolyn flies to 
Paris and she's boat. 

742
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:06,000
Graphed out at a restaurant with
her wedding dress designer and 

743
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,300
the Press thinks that she's 
having an affair with the 

744
00:42:08,300 --> 00:42:12,900
designer, which makes her 
thrilled because people are not 

745
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:16,000
even suspecting anything makes 
her Thrills. 

746
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:19,600
So then their wedding is in 
September, on the Cumberland 

747
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,400
Island which is a small island 
off the coast of Georgia and 

748
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,600
they have their wedding of the 
First African Baptist Church, 

749
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,600
which is a very small wedding or
small Church. 

750
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:33,900
There's only 11 wooden pews. 
There's no air-conditioning or 

751
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:36,100
electricity. 
Wow. 

752
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,400
And Steve, are you? 
Yeah, it's very secret and 

753
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,100
intimate. 
There's only 40 guests wedding 

754
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,900
party gets dressed up in a small
house near the chapel and John, 

755
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:48,800
even invites elderly made to be 
at the wedding, which is crazy 

756
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:52,300
because there's like barely 
anybody out this because nice 

757
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,000
and apparently John is late to 
the wedding because he can't 

758
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,300
find a shirt. 
So it ends up getting really 

759
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:01,700
dark and the guests had to use 
flashlights and candles to light

760
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:03,500
the room. 
That's cool. 

761
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,900
It was lightly, showering 
outside, and apparently Carolyn 

762
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:12,300
no Caroline Jones here made 
snide comments about the fact 

763
00:43:12,300 --> 00:43:15,700
that Carolyn was late to her own
wedding, which I thought John 

764
00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:19,300
was, the reason they were late, 
but she didn't like that. 

765
00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:23,000
And she also didn't like that 
Carolyn wore heels on the beach.

766
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,200
And apparently, this led to them
not getting along later on. 

767
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,300
Why does that matter? 
I don't know. 

768
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,700
Heels on the beach. 
I think I think Caroline just 

769
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,600
Probably got a bad vibe from 
Carolyn. 

770
00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:37,800
Yeah. 
Especially since she's seemingly

771
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,500
was temperamental. 
Yeah. 

772
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:42,900
Mmm. 
Maybe she felt like she was 

773
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:48,200
ruining the heels or something 
and I thought that was grati. 

774
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,900
I don't know. 
Maybe it was like their family 

775
00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:54,500
money. 
Wait, I was probably her 

776
00:43:54,500 --> 00:44:00,000
family's, I don't know. 
Yeah, I'm not sure if that's so 

777
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,700
then. 
John's cousin Anthony. 

778
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:04,400
The best man. 
He gave a speech. 

779
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,200
Instead we all know why John 
would marry Carolyn. 

780
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,900
She is smart, beautiful, and 
Charming. 

781
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,300
So what does she see in John? 
A person who over the years has 

782
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:16,100
taken pleasure in teasing me 
like nasty tricks in general. 

783
00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:18,600
Torturing me for some of the 
things that I guess might have 

784
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,900
attracted. 
Carolyn to John are his caring, 

785
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,600
his charm and his very big heart
of gold. 

786
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:25,600
It might sound corny but it is 
true. 

787
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,100
Love and has brought all of us 
who love John a great deal of 

788
00:44:29,100 --> 00:44:31,900
Happiness, knowing that he will 
have someone a specialist 

789
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,400
Carolyn by his side for the rest
of his life. 

790
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,200
I don't think we've ever had any
wedding speeches on this 

791
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:40,900
podcast. 
Yeah that might be the first 

792
00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:44,700
think we've had access. 
Wow I don't know how people even

793
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,700
know what he said because there 
was no Paparazzi or reporters at

794
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:52,600
this wedding but then afterwards
they released a statement, the 

795
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,100
Associated Press about it. 
So word got out and they went to

796
00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:00,400
Turkey for their honeymoon and 
they had hoped that when they 

797
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,900
got back. 
John celebrity would die down. 

798
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:06,400
Because now he's a married man. 
And no one's going to care about

799
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,400
him. 
And yeah. 

800
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,800
But the complete opposite 
happened. 

801
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,800
The paparazzi was now obsessed 
with them. 

802
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,800
And every single day there was 
80 to 20 photographers camped 

803
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,700
outside, their apartment, just 
waiting to snap a picture of 

804
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:24,200
them and apparently a photo of 
them could sell for like twenty 

805
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,000
thousand dollars just for 
laughs. 

806
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,300
Oh my God, I got so bad that 
John and Carolyn had a press 

807
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:35,000
conference where he asked 
Paparazzi to leave them alone 

808
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,400
and he said this is a big change
for anyone for a private citizen

809
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:41,500
even more. 
So I just ask for any privacy or

810
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:44,700
room you could give her as she 
makes that adjustment, it would 

811
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:48,800
be greatly appreciated. 
Well that only fed into the 

812
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,800
friends even more because 
Carolyn suddenly was very 

813
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,400
mysterious to the people and 
everybody wanted to know more 

814
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,800
about her and even Ralph Lauren 
said, everytime you design 

815
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,900
something, or create something 
think of Carolyn Bessette. 

816
00:46:05,100 --> 00:46:08,500
Actually just bought this New 
York Magazine, that was like, 

817
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:11,600
100 years of it girls. 
And I think she was one of them.

818
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,500
Yeah, now the people were 
obsessed with them. 

819
00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:18,700
Their first formal outing was at
the Whitney Museum Gala and you 

820
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:22,000
were crowned by the New York 
Post as New York's king queen, 

821
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,100
wow. 
And once again, she was compared

822
00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:29,300
to Jackie Kennedy, but Carolyn 
instantly was having a really 

823
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:31,600
tough time with this new fame. 
It's kind of weird because it 

824
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:32,900
seemed like she wanted to be 
famous. 

825
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:35,700
She said, I want to be famous I 
don't know. 

826
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:39,600
I don't think she really 
realizes like the reality of it,

827
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:42,500
and I think like, she didn't 
have a personality that was 

828
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:45,600
actually good for fame. 
Hmm. 

829
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,000
Because she was really paranoid 
about people, digging up things 

830
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:53,500
from her past and looking to see
to her, you know, painting her 

831
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:56,800
in a bad light, like, yeah, even
it had come out that she had 

832
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,000
illegally subletted. 
Her old apartment years before, 

833
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,300
and that just was a really 
paranoid about what other stuff 

834
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:05,300
they're gonna dig up about her. 
So Random Mmm. 

835
00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:08,200
Yeah. 
I guess it's that classic saying

836
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,800
be careful what you wish for. 
Really she grew more reclusive 

837
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,200
and she wasn't really willing to
leave the apartment but that 

838
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,000
made people even more obsessed 
with her because they really 

839
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,400
wanted to know. 
Like, yeah, she was, she was 

840
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,200
just so mysterious. 
Wow, it girl. 

841
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,800
Mmm, really, and John and her 
fought a lot and they had a lot 

842
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,900
of different things that they 
thought about the first was 

843
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:34,800
Carolyn resented. 
A lot of John's. 

844
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,200
And because like I said, she 
thought that they were taking 

845
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,400
advantage of him. 
They all had hidden agendas and 

846
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:44,700
they probably did and she tried 
to limit his contact with a lot 

847
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:48,300
of different people. 
One of the biggest ones was 

848
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:51,400
John's business partner, Michael
hmm. 

849
00:47:51,900 --> 00:47:55,800
He found Carolyn to be very 
controlling and paranoid 

850
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,600
especially because of her 
cocaine usage and he didn't like

851
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,800
how much time she spent at the 
office for the George magazine. 

852
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,600
And apparently, she and Asserted
herself into a lot of different 

853
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,000
things. 
Hmm. 

854
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:12,500
And one of her friends told 
Edward Cline, the author of The 

855
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:15,200
Kennedy curse. 
She thought Michael wasn't on 

856
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,900
the up-and-up and that he had a 
vested interest in her husband. 

857
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:21,400
She poisoned John's relationship
with, Michael. 

858
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,900
I heard her tell John, I don't 
believe Michael is your real 

859
00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:26,800
friend. 
The only reason he's close to 

860
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,100
you is because you're John F, 
Kennedy jr. 

861
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,700
Hmm. 
And this tension between Michael

862
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:36,700
and Carolyn got so bad that it 
ended Leading to a huge Fallout 

863
00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:40,400
between Michael and JFK jr. 
Which signaled, a lot of 

864
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,400
troubles at the Magazine's 
because then I think Michael 

865
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,400
really was doing the majority of
the work. 

866
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,700
Oh my own without decide. 
The magazine, just really 

867
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:56,300
started to crumble. 
Do you think she was right? 

868
00:48:56,300 --> 00:49:00,100
Or was she just paranoid and 
starting fights? 

869
00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:05,800
I can't, I don't, I mean maybe. 
But I think I I mean, a lot of 

870
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,200
people did tell the Press - 
stories about Carolyn. 

871
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:13,200
So obviously, I'm sure there 
were a lot of people who John 

872
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,600
couldn't trust. 
Yeah. 

873
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,200
And I don't think that anybody 
would could really. 

874
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,600
If you're that famous, like, you
always probably have to be wary 

875
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,600
of a lot of different people. 
Hmm. 

876
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,700
But was there anybody? 
He could trust. 

877
00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:32,100
Also, he also had his assistant 
Rosemarie who was very, very 

878
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:36,800
loyal to him and Carolyn tried 
to Her fired, what really 

879
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,800
jealous of Rose Marie and she 
hated how much he trusted her. 

880
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:45,900
And because he, she felt like 
rose was more loyal to John and 

881
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:49,100
to Carolyn like, Carolyn would 
tell Rosemarie stuff and say, 

882
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:52,000
don't tell, John don't tell him 
and then she would. 

883
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,100
She was she was his this. 
Yeah. 

884
00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:59,000
Not yours. 
I get probably everybody was 

885
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:03,900
trying to take advantage of him 
but it is kind of shitty to act 

886
00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:07,900
like Or I'm the only person you 
can trust exactly. 

887
00:50:07,900 --> 00:50:11,200
Yeah, but then I will say 
Rosemarie did later, end up, 

888
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,800
writing a book about them called
fairytale interrupted, so does 

889
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,600
make you wonder. 
Could you really be trusted? 

890
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:23,400
Can you trust anybody in this 
godforsaken world? 

891
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,600
Everyone who wrote a book about 
them was like I'm doing it to 

892
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,200
keep their legacy alive, their 
story, because they're not here 

893
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,100
to do so. 
But they do tell us some very 

894
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:36,200
silly things. 
Make me wonder like, how much 

895
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,800
did you get paid for those? 
Yeah, yeah. 

896
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,200
Yeah. 
I don't know. 

897
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:43,200
But I know they were probably 
more Regular People. 

898
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,700
Hmm. 
Especially an assistant. 

899
00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:50,700
Yeah, they needed a book. 
So Rosemary said, in her book, 

900
00:50:50,900 --> 00:50:54,700
John's John's insensitivity with
the biggest Catalyst of their 

901
00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:58,200
arguments can only would decline
invitations from friends because

902
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,100
John said he was coming home for
dinner. 

903
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,300
So she would wait and wait and 
wait while he worked late and 

904
00:51:03,308 --> 00:51:06,000
went to the gym and then wall, 
listen to the apartment way. 

905
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,300
Past dinner time, another 
classic scenario was when he 

906
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:12,000
would spring important 
information on her at the last 

907
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,200
minute, such as, oh, by the way,
the Whitney benefit is in two 

908
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:18,200
days or I'm bringing a friend 
home for dinner, right? 

909
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,600
Yeah. 
It wasn't mean-spirited. 

910
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,900
Or on his part he was simply as 
disorganized and clueless as a 

911
00:51:24,908 --> 00:51:33,200
kid, the bugs mean to Yep. 
And I'm apparently he was very 

912
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,000
absent because of his magazine 
especially since it was 

913
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,500
struggling a lot and Carolyn 
would do anything, she could to 

914
00:51:40,500 --> 00:51:44,200
get his attention because of 
this and he would call her 

915
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,900
during the day and she'd refused
to answer and she would go out 

916
00:51:47,900 --> 00:51:51,500
and go somewhere and not tell 
him where she was going mmm-hmm.

917
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,200
I'm cat and mouse. 
Yeah. 

918
00:51:56,300 --> 00:51:58,000
They also have very different 
interests. 

919
00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:59,900
He was very active and 
adventurous. 

920
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:06,400
And, you know, he loved to go 
mountain climbing and he loved 

921
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,300
planes. 
He was getting his pilot's 

922
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:12,600
license in just loved like all 
those manly stuff. 

923
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,300
Yeah. 
You know, missing sailing but 

924
00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:18,500
she was becoming more and more 
recluse, especially with the 

925
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:20,600
fame, and he had told her 
friend. 

926
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,600
I can't just come home and talk 
about the dog and the cat all 

927
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,100
evening and then sometimes he 
would come home and she would 

928
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:30,100
have all of her model fashion 
friends. 

929
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:33,000
Has over, and they would just be
doing cocaine and stuff and 

930
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:34,700
living room really pissed him 
off. 

931
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:37,900
So, they really clashed about 
their plans. 

932
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,300
Oh, man, that's a classic thing 
to fight about though. 

933
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:44,900
It's pretty normal, they also 
really class about having kids, 

934
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,500
he was really ready to be a 
father, and he apparently 

935
00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:53,200
already nicknamed or named their
hypothetical future son, Flynn, 

936
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,000
that's cute. 
You know, this is giving me 

937
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:01,100
blind friends, but she didn't 
want to have Kids guys, she was 

938
00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:04,600
very afraid of the media 
attention that kids would bring 

939
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,700
onto them further. 
And she didn't want to have to 

940
00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:12,500
worry about taking care of kids,
that would also be in the public

941
00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:13,700
eye. 
Hmm. 

942
00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:16,500
And they also fought about her 
spending habits. 

943
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:20,500
Apparently she was very warm and
generous with her money. 

944
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,100
She would buy very expensive 
gifts for the George staff like 

945
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:28,600
very expensive gifts. 
She would leave very large tips 

946
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,600
that every restaurant they went 
to and she was very nice to at 

947
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,500
this time. 
John's cousin Anthony, he was 

948
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:39,600
battling cancer and she was a 
really solid source of support 

949
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,600
for both Anthony and his wife, 
Carol who had written a book 

950
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,900
about them and she would, wow, 
attend all his doctor visits 

951
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:49,400
with them and she was very close
with them, but she's very 

952
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,200
generous though and John didn't 
like how much she was spending. 

953
00:53:52,300 --> 00:53:57,500
Hmm, sounds nice. 
But I think it was like she was 

954
00:53:57,500 --> 00:53:59,700
overdoing it. 
Yeah, I think it was a little 

955
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:06,600
Carol has at times been in 1997,
Princess Diana's death really 

956
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,800
exasperated, Carolyn's fears of 
the paparazzi even more. 

957
00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:14,700
And apparently she would say 
that she was really worried. 

958
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:16,900
The same thing would happen to 
her. 

959
00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:20,200
The happened to Diana, which is 
just kind of ironic because 

960
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,400
literally it's like, she's the 
American princess. 

961
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:26,600
Yeah. 
And being ostracized, Austin 

962
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,200
ostracized by the press all the 
time. 

963
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:30,000
Hmm. 
And John. 

964
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:34,100
On worried about Carolyn a lot, 
but he also was very frustrated 

965
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,000
frustrated with her inability to
adjust and cope with the 

966
00:54:37,008 --> 00:54:41,000
situation and because he grew up
with this lifestyle. 

967
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,300
Yeah. 
You didn't really understand how

968
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:44,700
difficult it could be for 
someone who didn't. 

969
00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:46,400
Yeah. 
Wasn't used to it. 

970
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,900
Sounds similar to Charles and 
Diana in that way. 

971
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:52,500
Yeah, he was like, just get over
it. 

972
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:53,700
Yeah, yeah. 
Yeah. 

973
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:55,400
The sooner you accept it the 
better? 

974
00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:59,900
Yeah, she couldn't accept it. 
And she became very fixated to 

975
00:54:59,900 --> 00:55:02,900
on. 
Physical appearance and would, 

976
00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:06,700
you know, like was very obsessed
with dying her hair and dieting.

977
00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:10,900
And she would self-medicate with
cocaine all the time which Adam 

978
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:16,000
paranoia. 
And then in 2004 Carolyn's 

979
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,000
ex-boyfriend Michael, burgeon 
remember the Calvin Klein model,

980
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:24,600
he revealed that he and Carolyn 
had actually maintained a close 

981
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,800
friendship after their breakup 
and would talk on the phone 

982
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:31,600
often and that she felt she 
Could always rely on him to be 

983
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:37,100
there while John was absent. 
And that in 1997, they started 

984
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:42,000
seeing each other again. 
And she actually went to LA and 

985
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:48,900
they met up and slept wake up 
Virgin, I didn't expect that 

986
00:55:48,900 --> 00:55:50,500
Gap. 
And then around Thanksgiving, 

987
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:53,000
they met up at a Connecticut 
Motel. 

988
00:55:53,300 --> 00:55:58,100
They have sex again and then 
when John was away on a trip to 

989
00:55:58,100 --> 00:56:04,700
Iceland Carolyn's 11 days in LA 
with him and then once John even

990
00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:09,700
showed up at their apartment in 
Tribeca and Michael was in bed 

991
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:13,300
with her. 
What sent Michael down? 

992
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,800
Like to get away like he John, 
didn't catch them or anything, 

993
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,800
but they were Rendezvous, going 
it up. 

994
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,200
Oh my God. 
And Michael apparently said that

995
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,500
the reason he's telling people, 
the snow is because a lot of bad

996
00:56:26,500 --> 00:56:28,900
things have been said about 
Carolyn and so he wants people 

997
00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:32,500
to know what a lovely person. 
And she was and I guess he had 

998
00:56:32,500 --> 00:56:35,400
to, you know, tell people how 
close they were because of that.

999
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:37,600
But I don't think this makes her
look any better. 

1000
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,900
No, I don't know if that helps. 
She was having an affair with 

1001
00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:46,600
me, but she was a great person. 
I knew her better than anybody. 

1002
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:51,600
She was a lovely woman and a 
great lover. 

1003
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:54,600
You could have kept that to 
himself. 

1004
00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:01,100
Yeah. 
I mean, But he could have just 

1005
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:03,200
said, like, we maintain a 
friendship. 

1006
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:05,400
Yeah, she's a great person. 
Yeah. 

1007
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,800
And apparently, John's friends 
verified reports after the book 

1008
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,300
came out, because John had 
confessed to them, his fears, 

1009
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:16,200
that they were having an affair.
Oh, wow. 

1010
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:18,400
So was John ever having an 
affair. 

1011
00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:26,000
So, Carolyn told Michael that 
she thought that apparently in 

1012
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,700
1998, Carolyn broke down and 
told Michael that she was in 

1013
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:33,400
love with Michael and that she 
confessed to him that she 

1014
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:37,200
thought that John was having an 
affair in Michael asked her, why

1015
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:39,000
she thought that? 
And she said, I don't know, I 

1016
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,300
just do hmm there's no evidence 
that he had an affair but 

1017
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:46,400
apparently there were rumors 
that maybe he was seeing his ex 

1018
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:47,900
Daryl. 
Hannah again, what? 

1019
00:57:48,500 --> 00:57:52,700
But no one really know. 
They're both possibly seen their

1020
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:57,500
exes this foursome, but Jon 
Jon's friends? 

1021
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,300
He's apparently said that he 
confessed to them that he wished

1022
00:58:00,300 --> 00:58:02,900
he could cheat on her, but he 
couldn't humiliate her. 

1023
00:58:02,900 --> 00:58:05,100
Like his father, did to his 
mother. 

1024
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,600
That's nice. 
That's nice. 

1025
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:13,000
But I don't know if I buy that 
can also wait. 

1026
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:18,600
So he wanted to G gonna say, but
we do think on this podcast, if 

1027
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,100
one person is cheating, if one 
person she'd send the other 

1028
00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:24,100
person continues, I just feel 
like he's probably better at 

1029
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:25,300
hiding. 
His cheating. 

1030
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:27,200
Yeah, because he knows how to 
play the media. 

1031
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,000
Yeah. 
Here's more people willing to be

1032
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,800
on his side because he has more 
influence. 

1033
00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:33,500
I'd be pretty amazed if he never
did. 

1034
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,900
Mmm. 
Apparently he also said that 

1035
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:39,000
Carolyn viewed marriage like men
do and that she was cynical 

1036
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,400
because of the way that her 
father had left her mother. 

1037
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,400
But John felt very desperate 
with how reclusive and paranoid.

1038
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,600
She was staff members at George 
said that he was very grouchy 

1039
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:55,100
and it was clear that there were
issues at home And he had a very

1040
00:58:55,100 --> 00:58:58,100
close friend named Sasha from I 
think all the way back in high 

1041
00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:03,100
school and it was kind of almost
like a Mindy and BJ situation. 

1042
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,700
He actually even insisted on 
being The Godfather to both of 

1043
00:59:06,700 --> 00:59:10,100
Sasha's children. 
Interesting, but from what I can

1044
00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:13,500
tell it was, mostly platonic. 
But he would confide in Sasha 

1045
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:15,900
about their relationship issues.
Interesting. 

1046
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:21,800
Which I don't know, like that, 
Sasha, what's what's this Sasha?

1047
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:25,700
And He begged Sasha to get 
Carolyn out of the apartment for

1048
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:29,700
a glass of wine and apparently 
she did in the first question 

1049
00:59:29,700 --> 00:59:33,400
that Carolyn asked Sasha over 
wine was, how do you keep 

1050
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,900
passion in the relationship? 
When you've been with someone, 

1051
00:59:35,900 --> 00:59:39,000
for a long time? 
And Sasha said, well, that's not

1052
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,100
something that you need to worry
about since you haven't been 

1053
00:59:41,100 --> 00:59:46,300
together that long? 
Damn, no. 

1054
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:49,200
And apparently, Carolyn would 
tell friends that John wasn't 

1055
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:52,000
her type and that she wasn't 
sexually attracted to him. 

1056
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:54,600
I thought he was super good 
looking. 

1057
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,000
I know it seems like again, 
careful what you wish for like, 

1058
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,700
yeah, she was chasing him for 
all these years but then she 

1059
01:00:01,700 --> 01:00:04,300
couldn't handle the reality. 
Oh my God. 

1060
01:00:04,300 --> 01:00:09,500
Being with him and it made her 
resent him and lose attraction 

1061
01:00:09,500 --> 01:00:12,000
for him. 
Wow, he was actually voted the 

1062
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,800
sexiest man alive in 1988. 
So the fact that she said that 

1063
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:20,400
she didn't even find him sexy. 
Wow, that's insane. 

1064
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:23,800
Know? 
What see you guys, it can happen

1065
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,000
to anybody. 
No, yes. 

1066
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,100
Oh my God, things are really not
great. 

1067
01:00:31,500 --> 01:00:35,900
So then in 1999, he persuaded 
Carolyn to see a psychiatrist 

1068
01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:39,600
psychiatrist and he made sure 
that she started taking 

1069
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,800
antidepressant medications and 
to amuse her. 

1070
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,700
He flew her to a romantic 
Hideaway for a romantic vacation

1071
01:00:47,100 --> 01:00:52,100
to hopefully try to mend things 
but that March Each they hit a 

1072
01:00:52,107 --> 01:00:55,200
Breaking Point, they started 
attending couples counseling 

1073
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:59,800
together and in one session in 
that July that July Carolyn 

1074
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:04,000
stormed out of the session after
her drug, use came up and she 

1075
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:05,700
started sleeping in the spare 
room. 

1076
01:01:05,700 --> 01:01:10,300
And then he started staying at 
the Stanhope hotel in Manhattan.

1077
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,900
Oh no. 
So things, it just seems like 

1078
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:16,800
our kind of out of breaking 
point now. 

1079
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:23,800
And on July think 13th, 
Carolyn's sister Lauren, 

1080
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,100
arranges for them to all have 
drinks at the hotel to try to 

1081
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:30,000
mend things between them. 
Neither of them are really in 

1082
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,000
the mood to talk and they just 
kind of sit there in silence in 

1083
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,200
the lobby of the hotel and 
Lauren asked them to hold hands,

1084
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,600
but they refused. 
But then she insisted and they 

1085
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,900
hold hands reluctantly. 
I don't know how people know 

1086
01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:43,900
this. 
That's sweet of Lauren, you 

1087
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:46,900
know, how do they know? 
Yeah, I think Lauren was really 

1088
01:01:46,900 --> 01:01:49,500
stressed. 
About everything going on with 

1089
01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:51,900
her sister and she wanted to 
help them work on their 

1090
01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:53,100
marriage. 
Sweet. 

1091
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,900
And so, that weekend, John's 
cousin, Rory was getting married

1092
01:01:56,900 --> 01:02:00,100
in Hyannis, and Carolyn really 
didn't want to go to the 

1093
01:02:00,100 --> 01:02:02,800
wedding. 
She didn't want to be there with

1094
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,300
John and she also didn't really 
like the Kennedy family and she 

1095
01:02:06,300 --> 01:02:08,400
really felt like an outsider 
among them. 

1096
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:10,500
Hmm. 
But Lauren insisted that, she 

1097
01:02:10,500 --> 01:02:13,200
should go to support John, 
especially since his cousin 

1098
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,200
Anthony was unfortunately dying 
of cancer. 

1099
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,100
And because Is everything going 
on with his magazine? 

1100
01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:22,600
And he was under a lot of stress
and more. 

1101
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:27,800
Instead, I'll go with you, I'll 
ride in the plane with you and 

1102
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,400
that was the only thing that 
convinced Carolyn to go to the 

1103
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:35,300
wedding. 
And so the plan was that they 

1104
01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:37,800
were going to fly to Martha's 
Vineyard and drop Lauren off in 

1105
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,300
Martha's Vineyard to be with her
friends for the weekend and then

1106
01:02:41,300 --> 01:02:44,000
they would go to Hyannis for the
wedding, okay? 

1107
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:48,300
So that evening, actually, John 
even call up up a friend while 

1108
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:51,300
in the Stanhope hotel and 
confessed, all the problems 

1109
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:53,400
going on in his marriage. 
Wow. 

1110
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,100
He was lying on his bed and 
said, it's falling apart. 

1111
01:02:56,100 --> 01:02:59,400
Everything is falling apart. 
He said, I want to have kids but

1112
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,400
whenever I raise this subject 
with Carolyn she turns away and 

1113
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:06,500
refuses to have sex with me, he 
also said it's not just about 

1114
01:03:06,500 --> 01:03:09,800
sex, it's impossible to talk to 
Carolyn about anything. 

1115
01:03:10,100 --> 01:03:16,500
We've become like total 
strangers, my God and then the 

1116
01:03:16,500 --> 01:03:19,900
next day on July, 16, they were 
supposed to fly out of New 

1117
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:22,900
Jersey during the day but Lauren
got delayed with work. 

1118
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,600
And then there was a lot of 
traffic so they didn't fly out 

1119
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:30,700
of New Jersey until 8:30, 3 p.m.
and at this time weather 

1120
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:34,700
conditions were pretty hazy and 
John had just purchased this 

1121
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:39,400
flight only three months before 
and light or plants. 

1122
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,700
Are This Plane okay, little prop
plane be okay. 

1123
01:03:43,300 --> 01:03:46,900
He had been interested in Plants
his whole life by the way. 

1124
01:03:46,900 --> 01:03:51,400
Like even from as young as a 
toddler flying on Air Force, One

1125
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:54,000
with his dad. 
Well, even the last time he ever

1126
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:57,900
even saw his dad was when he was
taking off on the plane. 

1127
01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:01,300
And he was waving to his dad 
from the term acts. 

1128
01:04:01,300 --> 01:04:05,100
So plans were a lifelong 
Obsession for John and but he 

1129
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:06,900
wasn't that experienced of a 
fire. 

1130
01:04:06,900 --> 01:04:11,900
He had only three hundred and 
ten hours of flight experience, 

1131
01:04:12,300 --> 01:04:18,200
but because he had the sense of 
fearlessness about him, he With 

1132
01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:22,100
a lot more Reckless because he's
certified he was certified. 

1133
01:04:22,100 --> 01:04:26,600
Yeah, well, so then at 8:40, the
plane disappeared from radar 

1134
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:30,700
screens but John never issued, 
any emergency warnings during 

1135
01:04:30,700 --> 01:04:35,000
the flight or anything. 
And then at 2:15 a.m. the 

1136
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,500
Kennedy family reported to the 
Coast Guard that the plane had 

1137
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:42,500
not arrived and the Coast Guard 
started a search and rescue 

1138
01:04:42,500 --> 01:04:47,700
effort at 4 a.m. oh my God. 
And then over the next A couple 

1139
01:04:47,700 --> 01:04:51,400
of days, the tent that was 
erected for the wedding of Rory,

1140
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,500
Kennedy became a site for 
friends and family to gather and

1141
01:04:54,500 --> 01:05:00,800
pray for the safe return of John
Lord, John Carolyn and her 

1142
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:04,300
sister Lauren, my God. 
That's really, I mean, it's a 

1143
01:05:04,300 --> 01:05:07,000
tragedy for everyone. 
That's really sad for Rory. 

1144
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:09,700
I know that would happen to the 
wedding. 

1145
01:05:09,700 --> 01:05:13,400
No, very sad. 
I know, I think the nightmare 

1146
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:17,000
writing a few months later. 
I know it's awful. 

1147
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:19,500
I don't think of all the 
planning that goes into. 

1148
01:05:19,500 --> 01:05:23,000
Yeah, it's supposed to be the 
happiest day of your life and 

1149
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:27,600
caught I know. 
And then unfortunately, on July 

1150
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:31,400
19th debris, from the plane was 
found, including luggage and 

1151
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,400
personal items, floating in the 
Atlantic Ocean, seven and a half

1152
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,600
mile to ought to Martha's 
Vineyard. 

1153
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,500
And then on July 21st, the 
wreckage of the plane including 

1154
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:46,700
the engine is located on the 
ocean floor at a depth of 120 

1155
01:05:46,700 --> 01:05:50,000
feet. 
And then the bodies of John 

1156
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:53,500
Carolyn and born were all 
recovered from the crash site. 

1157
01:05:53,500 --> 01:05:58,600
That's so tragic. 
Oh, leave that the crash. 

1158
01:05:59,100 --> 01:06:01,300
So there was a whole 
investigation that lasted until 

1159
01:06:01,300 --> 01:06:04,800
March 2000 but it sounds like 
I'm trying. 

1160
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,300
It's believed that the crash 
happened around 9:40 after John 

1161
01:06:09,300 --> 01:06:13,600
became disoriented while flying 
over the ocean and was unable to

1162
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,300
maintain control of the plane. 
Oh, my God, that's so scary. 

1163
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,600
And it's speculated that it took
him about only three minutes 

1164
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,900
from realizing, there was a 
problem until the plane had 

1165
01:06:25,900 --> 01:06:27,800
crashed and its really sad in 
her book. 

1166
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,000
Carole radziwill says that she 
always thinks about that. 

1167
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:34,000
Whenever anything takes three 
minutes, she's like, wow segment

1168
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,500
on the news or something. 
It's yeah, whatever. 

1169
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:38,000
You can think of it takes three 
minutes. 

1170
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,800
Like that's how much life can 
change in that short amount of 

1171
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:44,700
time. 
She like crashes often occur in 

1172
01:06:44,900 --> 01:06:48,300
private jets or planes, right? 
Dumplings. 

1173
01:06:48,700 --> 01:06:50,300
I know. 
Well, it's you want to go on 

1174
01:06:50,300 --> 01:06:51,800
one? 
I mean it makes me think about 

1175
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:55,000
like Kobe Bryant like yeah a lot
of celebrities fly. 

1176
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:57,200
All these like small planes all 
the time. 

1177
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:00,100
Yeah. 
They're so used to that ease of 

1178
01:07:00,100 --> 01:07:03,900
travel that sometimes they might
be putting themselves into 

1179
01:07:03,900 --> 01:07:08,200
dangerous, dangerous situations.
Yeah, flying and hazy conditions

1180
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:13,700
just for the convenience of it. 
I don't think John he wasn't an 

1181
01:07:13,700 --> 01:07:18,700
experienced enough pilot in 
order to To like, know what to 

1182
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:23,100
do in a situation like that. 
So sad. 

1183
01:07:23,500 --> 01:07:26,000
Uh-huh. 
And some people speculate that 

1184
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:28,400
the stress and state of their 
marriage, may have also been a 

1185
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:30,300
contributing factor. 
Yeah. 

1186
01:07:30,300 --> 01:07:36,600
Maybe Like he wasn't totally on 
it little distracted. 

1187
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,500
Yeah. 
You'd also just a few months 

1188
01:07:40,500 --> 01:07:44,200
before had broken his foot and 
he had to go on but I don't know

1189
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:46,700
if he actually his foot might 
have been a little bit recovered

1190
01:07:46,700 --> 01:07:49,500
by the time the flight like he 
was cleared to fly that could 

1191
01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:54,500
have also been a factor as well.
Also he had taken a shortcut or 

1192
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:58,400
try to take a shortcut so rather
than flying around the coast of 

1193
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,800
Rhode Island he went over much 
larger open bar D of water. 

1194
01:08:03,200 --> 01:08:07,900
So it was a lot darker outside 
and also they have scared. 

1195
01:08:07,900 --> 01:08:09,800
It was supposed to fly out 
during the day. 

1196
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:12,200
This is so sad. 
Like, if all these things and 

1197
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,500
have happened they might yeah 
today. 

1198
01:08:18,899 --> 01:08:22,899
It's crazy because I don't know.
It seems like they probably 

1199
01:08:22,899 --> 01:08:26,700
would have gotten divorced and I
had to guess within it never 

1200
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:30,500
happened. 
Do you know like other time I'm 

1201
01:08:30,500 --> 01:08:32,399
guessing the public perception 
was that? 

1202
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:35,899
They had like a great 
relationship, I think so. 

1203
01:08:35,899 --> 01:08:38,700
Yeah. 
I mean even that book that Rose 

1204
01:08:38,700 --> 01:08:41,399
Marie Rose called the fairy tale
interrupted. 

1205
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,700
Like I feel like people really 
saw this as like a prince and 

1206
01:08:44,700 --> 01:08:46,399
princess of me. 
Yes story. 

1207
01:08:48,300 --> 01:08:51,500
But I do think that fight in 
Washington Square Park. 

1208
01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:53,800
Like was the first sign that 
there was trouble in their 

1209
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:59,600
relationship tragic, but there 
was, I think a lawsuit after the

1210
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:01,600
fact. 
I think her family did Sue, the 

1211
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,500
Kennedy family. 
So that was one thing that made 

1212
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:06,700
me wonder like is that why 
there's such negative stories 

1213
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:09,100
about Carolyn out there? 
Like did they want to paint 

1214
01:09:09,100 --> 01:09:13,700
Carolyn evil in for some reason?
Why did they sue like on the 

1215
01:09:13,700 --> 01:09:16,399
basis of what? 
I don't know? 

1216
01:09:16,500 --> 01:09:21,200
Do not like, what could the 
family have to do with? 

1217
01:09:21,300 --> 01:09:23,000
I mean, what can they do? 
You know? 

1218
01:09:23,100 --> 01:09:25,800
Yeah, I think they sued the 
estate for. 

1219
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,200
It's not like anyone else was 
involved. 

1220
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:32,800
I don't know, like, even like 
the Ryan family sued, the estate

1221
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:38,100
of the pilot. 
This, the plane that killed 

1222
01:09:38,100 --> 01:09:40,800
Cody. 
It's tough situation because 

1223
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:44,500
like, you want to find somebody 
responsible in a situation like 

1224
01:09:44,500 --> 01:09:46,399
that. 
But yeah, times like it is just 

1225
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,300
An accident. 
And yeah, I mean, it's not The 

1226
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:53,500
Grieving families will I know 
when both families lost 

1227
01:09:53,500 --> 01:09:55,200
somebody. 
Yeah. 

1228
01:09:56,200 --> 01:10:00,800
Oh, I'm glad I learned the whole
story. 

1229
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,500
I never really heard the whole 
thing. 

1230
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:11,100
Wow, some of these episodes and 
quite sadly. 

1231
01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:16,000
But you know what? 
We're keeping them alive and 

1232
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,400
it's good. 
Remember tragic to think that 

1233
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,600
their lives ended so abruptly, 
like in the middle of all this 

1234
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,500
drama. 
Like, I mean, so scared animals,

1235
01:10:24,500 --> 01:10:25,800
like what their lives could have
been. 

1236
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:29,000
Like they both could have gotten
divorced gone separated, like 

1237
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:31,700
they could have lived very 
independent lives. 

1238
01:10:31,700 --> 01:10:33,300
Yeah. 
And that's somebody else. 

1239
01:10:33,300 --> 01:10:35,600
And it also is just sad that 
like she was. 

1240
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,800
So paranoid that people were 
gonna like sell all these 

1241
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,500
stories about her to the place 
and then they kind of did I 

1242
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:44,000
know. 
Like you can see why she was 

1243
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:45,300
paranoid. 
Yeah. 

1244
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:47,800
And then her Of being like 
Diana. 

1245
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:51,400
That's crazy. 
Yeah, she did die young too. 

1246
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:54,700
Oh, wait. 
Let me see. 

1247
01:10:54,700 --> 01:10:59,400
How old she was? 
She was just 33 years old and I 

1248
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,300
feel really bad for their 
parents to the facade parents. 

1249
01:11:02,300 --> 01:11:05,900
Yeah, they lost two daughters. 
That's so tragic. 

1250
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,700
Oh my God. 
That's a nightmare. 

1251
01:11:09,700 --> 01:11:13,200
I know why is life. 
So, cruel Carolyn, Caroline 

1252
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:17,000
Kennedy, she lost her mom, her 
dad and then her brother Mother.

1253
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:19,400
Wow. 
Poor Carol. 

1254
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,200
I know and apparently, Caroline,
and John like weren't even on 

1255
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,600
speaking terms at this point, I 
think, because of all the 

1256
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:30,200
tension with Carolyn, wow, oh my
God. 

1257
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,200
Why? 
Why is life so hard? 

1258
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,200
It's so cruel. 
But I can see why people want to

1259
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,400
believe that he's still alive. 
It's just such a tragic death. 

1260
01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:43,100
Yeah, it's so tragic. 
Just a beautiful man 2. 

1261
01:11:43,100 --> 01:11:45,600
Yeah. 
Well Mount, you did an amazing 

1262
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,200
job. 
Because listening to his real 

1263
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,700
story, you know, just flowed 
perfectly. 

1264
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:54,400
Oh I'm happy to hear that 
because guys, I've had a storm 

1265
01:11:54,400 --> 01:11:56,800
bad cop. 
So I feel like my breathing 

1266
01:11:56,800 --> 01:12:00,100
hasn't been great this episode. 
So, no has asthma. 

1267
01:12:00,500 --> 01:12:05,200
Hmm, I feel bad for me. 
I've been, it does have to do 

1268
01:12:05,208 --> 01:12:07,100
with allergies. 
I feel like everyone's been 

1269
01:12:07,100 --> 01:12:09,300
talking about how bad it's been 
like lately. 

1270
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,300
Well, because it barely it 
didn't even snow here in New 

1271
01:12:12,300 --> 01:12:14,600
York, so I feel like we've had a
longer spring. 

1272
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:17,400
Yeah, which is elongated that 
Allergy season. 

1273
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:21,900
So, all that mucus is just been 
building on my own songs. 

1274
01:12:21,900 --> 01:12:26,700
They cannot take it. 
I hope it clears up some no, you

1275
01:12:26,700 --> 01:12:30,400
did great. 
Wow. 

1276
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,700
So next week, hopefully also, 
I'll be breathing a little bit 

1277
01:12:34,700 --> 01:12:38,900
better next week. 
There's also some Scandal and 

1278
01:12:38,900 --> 01:12:43,100
salaciousness, okay? 
Week's episode, we're going a 

1279
01:12:43,100 --> 01:12:49,200
little internationally here. 
We're going to Bollywood honest.

1280
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:53,100
Oh, okay. 
And it's a relationship. 

1281
01:12:53,100 --> 01:12:59,500
That is very much. 
Did they did they not over at 

1282
01:12:59,500 --> 01:13:02,700
all tree? 
All right. 

1283
01:13:02,700 --> 01:13:04,900
If anyone has a guess, let us 
know. 

1284
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:09,500
And we love you all. 
Thank you so much for supporting

1285
01:13:09,500 --> 01:13:13,200
the podcast and will get back 
together next week.