Are you lonesome tonight? Do you miss me tonight?
Are you sorry? Hi guys.
Welcome to Significant Lovers. We're your hosts.
My name is Mel and I'm Kel. And I'm Caitlin, and in case
you're wondering, this is not a true crime podcast you're
listening to, but a true love podcast.
See what I did there? And each week we cover a new
historical or pop cultural couple and figure out why they
worked out or why they didn't and what happened and what that
means for us regular folk and our relationship problems.
Because at the end of the day, it's just like all the tabloids
say celebrities. They are just like US.
Oh, I love that. Wow, Kate, did you write that?
That was really good. Oh my.
Gosh, I love that Kate. Yeah, I've been inspired because
a lot of the other podcasts have like that I've been listening to
have like a really scripted intro.
So I had to think. Of something that was very well
worded. Yeah.
They're just like us. It's true, though.
Yeah. Oh, and part of our intro is me
saying that we're cousins. Yes, in case anybody's brand
new, you just need to know that. Well, technically they are
sisters and I'm their cousin. We're all related.
So you might hear us like talk about, oh, your mom, we're oh
grandpa or something. That's why people that have been
with us since the beginning. I know you're tired of hearing
this, but we love you. Not the significant lovers.
Nope, no, that would be wrong, although we've covered cousin
relationship. Well, the person that we're
talking about today had been married previously to two
brothers at one point. Yes, we're not saying we like
that, it's just happened, but. Thankfully, that's not the case
today. Cool.
And why is that, Kate? Who are we talking about today?
So last week I talked to, well, not last week, OK, Last time I
talked about Cleopatra with Julius Caesar, and this time I'm
covering her Cleopatra with Mark Antony.
Heard of him? Yes.
But actually, I don't know what he did to be honest.
I know I. Know less about him than Caesar.
I knew less about him than Caesar too, and less about them
as a couple. Also, 'cause I never read
Anthony and Cleopatra by William Shakespeare.
So I kind of also went into this with no idea about Evette.
I need to see the Elizabeth Taylor movie.
I said I was going to, but then I didn't.
But I still want to. You gotta, I mean, I haven't
seen that so. I think it's like 3 hours long
or something. I still want to but just need to
find a good night to do it. Yeah, at least if you're
watching at home, you can take breaks if you need to.
Well, before we begin, I want to thank some new patrons we have
over on Patreon. So thank you to Jenny, Natalia,
Amber and Alva. Thank you.
Thank. You.
I also want to do an extra special shout out to some of our
long time patrons because their continued support has been
insurmountable and greatly appreciated.
So I want to give a big thanks to Tessa, Sierra, Cara, Yonica,
Carrie, Indra, Musna, Inez, Priyanka and Rebecca.
Oh yeah? Where'd?
You get this list. From from Patreon.
Oh, the people that have been subscribed the longest, yes.
Yeah, thank you guys so much. I feel like you guys, you're
like our friends to us. We love all your comments and
thank you so much for how supportive you are of the
podcast. It means so much.
And yeah, we love feeling like we have this community with you
guys and talking about love all the time together.
Really means a lot. So, Kate, do we have our other
favorite segment? At the beginning, we do.
We have trivia. So this is between Kelly and
Mel, who usually are really good at trivia, so hopefully you guys
can do good at this bout. Questions that I have.
I was kind of inspired by Mel from the last couple of trivia
questions you asked 'cause it was kind of not the normal type
that we asked. So I kind of did something
different this time around. Oh.
This is just like whoever's closest, or you know, whoever
gets it. Exactly so #1 including this
episode. How many people, not couples has
this podcast covered? Not including the rapid fire
episode that were born before the 20th century.
Wait, couples or individuals? People.
Individuals. OK.
And do we have a time limit on how fast we can guess this?
Just whatever your first initial guess is, I guess, and we'll
just lock that in. I don't have like a time limit I
suppose. I'm going to say.
Including this episode, you. Said including this episode.
Including this episode. OK, rough guess.
I probably could think about it more, but I am going to say it
feels like it will be 14. OK, Mel, you're locking in that
answer. Yes.
OK, Kelly. I'm going to say 16.
OK, so neither of you got it exactly, but Kelly was the
closest. The answer was 20.
Wow. Yeah, 20 people.
Wonder who I missed? Well, I'll tell you all of them
after I do question #2 because it'll be kind of a spoiler for
that. So which couple consists of an
individual or 1/2 of it was born in the 19th century and the
other was born in the 20th century?
Oh, I am thinking potentially Wallace Simpson and King.
Wait, what's his name? Senior couple I know.
I think it was Edward, right? Edward yes, but he he went by, I
think like a nickname too, by Edward.
It wasn't them. If Scott Fitzgerald and Zelda
Fitzgerald. Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.
Damn, yay. Oh God.
So Zelda was born in 1900, so technically the 20th century,
right on the cusp. So she wasn't included in the
list from question number one. And F Scott was born in 1896.
So the people that were born before the 20th century, the 20
people were Einstein, his wife Maleva, F Scott Fitzgerald, King
James, George Villier, Mary Shelley, Percy Shelley, Wallace
Simpson, Edward the 8th, Edward the 8th who is married to
Wallace Simpson, Annie Oakley, Frank Butler, Marie Antoinette,
Louis the 16th, Jane Austen, Tom Lafoit, John Adams, Abigail
Adams, Cleopatra, Caesar and Marc Anthony.
Wow, wow. Yes.
Cool, we should make a collage or something of all the
historic. People, It was kind of funny
because prior to recording this episode, my dad was asking me
about who we're covering and what trivia questions we were
going to do and he wanted me to ask him one of them.
And I asked him the which couple has one in the 19th and one is
the 20th and he instantly got F Scott and Zelda somehow.
I know, I don't know how he did it anyway.
I actually just read Zelda's book Save Me the.
Wall, which I talked about back in the episode.
And I, you know, it couldn't fit it all in.
We can't do everything when we record it.
But I wish I had read it back then, 'cause it was so obvious.
It was like exactly their life and what happened.
She just kind of changed the names.
It was really interesting. Yeah, so Kelly now has gotten 2
questions right, and there's one question left.
OK. OK, let's just see if I can get
on the board. So this is really about who gets
it the fastest. Who are the only two people this
podcast is covered. Again, not in the rapid fire
episode that were born in the 21st century.
Oh, Olivia Rodrigo and Joshua Bassett.
No, Kelly got it. What?
No, there was a delay. There was a delay.
On the phone there was.
No delay, I heard. Myself being like, done while
you were, yeah. I heard Kelly being done way
before you. OK, she got it, but I.
Do it back. But it sounded like Kelly got
it. I think I started saying it at
the same. Time.
You hadn't even said Joshua Bassett yet by the time I was,
like, done. I thought saying Olivia Rodrigo
was enough. I thought it was enough.
No, I. Said two people.
OK, OK, OK. So Kelly got 3 for three.
Damn. Good job, Kelly.
Thank you, Kate. Good game.
Thanks, Mel. Good job.
I'm doing that little like baseball thing from like the
1920s where they were like shake over their shoulders.
Imagined you were doing. Thanks guys.
That's fun. All right.
Kate, what 3 words would you use to describe this couple?
OK, so technically I use 4, but it's, you know, seeming like
they're so well suited. Passionate and doomed.
Doomed. I know, I know, I know.
Spoiler alert. But also a -1 as the last one.
Typical. Didn't we use doomed for another
relationship? Probably I think we might have
did. I want to go.
I don't even know if it was you, but I we definitely did.
I want to listen to them all back and like write them down
and see how many overlapping adjectives there are for these.
Couples. Yeah, like which ones are the
most similar? There's so much data like I wish
I had. I know.
Seriously, I wish. And then I could categorize it
like, OK, if you guys want to listen to all the doomed couple
episodes, listen to these ones. If you want to listen to all the
fiery couples, listen to these. Yeah.
Devoted couples listen to these.
Maybe I can go back and listen to all of them and categorize
them, but that would be a project.
Yeah, 'cause we're on, what, 1/11/13?
I don't know. Something like.
That it's pretty high. I think this is I want to say
like 113. Yeah, OK.
Well. I guess the amount of couples
doesn't overlap with the number of episodes, but.
True. I know.
OK. Why are they doomed?
Doomed though. Well, I will get into that in a
second, but first I just wanted. To tell me now.
Just kidding, I got. To the end, I can spoil it.
I'm just kidding. OK, well last time I was host
again, I covered the relationship between Cleopatra
and Caesar. And I highly recommend you
listen to this episode or that episode before you listen to
this one if you haven't already. But if you haven't yet, why
haven't you? What are you doing?
Go listen to it. Not only is it great or what?
Or you could just be like kind of confused the whole episode
and then listen to it and have things cleared up for yourself.
But again, not only is it a great episode, but it will
provide you with a lot more context, like Kelly said, for
some of the events and people I'm going to talk about in this
episode that you might need to fully understand this story.
Like, for instance, I'm not going to explain who Cleopatra
is or what her past was in this episode because I did in the
last one. So if you want to know all about
that and her, go back and listen to her episode with Caesar.
Yeah, so she's not just being like, sexist and skipping
Cleopatra's no Fido. No, I already.
Covered it. It's already been done.
Yeah, it's already been done. And I used some of the same
sources that I did last time, including Cleopatra Life by
Stacey Schiff. But also this time around I used
Parallel Lives, The Life of Anthony by Plutarch, and he was
my main source. So I just want to put that
there. Wow.
He provided a lot of the information I needed to do my
background on Mark Anthony. That's an old source, Kate, I
know. He was alive around the same
time Mark and Cleopatra were alive, so very, very old.
What was his purpose for writing about them?
Just curiosity? Just interest.
History taking cause Plutarch especially, he did a biography
of Caesar, a biography of Mark, a biography of Augustus,
biography of all these other people.
So just basically a historian of the time, just taking down all
the information that there need to be telling it to people.
Blue talk. Heavens be, I was thinking that.
Oh. My God, so many Hunger Games
quotes and stuff. Yep.
But anyway, OK, who was Mark? We haven't talked about him
really. So Marcus Antonius Credicus or
Mark as he's most commonly known as.
He's also known as Anthony, but just for the sake of it, I call
him Mark throughout this episode, just so you're aware.
How come he is known as Mark Antony and not Marcus Antonius?
I. Don't know.
I think just because maybe of cause of Shakespeare, they
Englishified his name. So it's not Marcus Antonius,
it's Mark Antony. I don't know.
I see. Yeah.
So I could call him Marcus this entire episode but I just want.
Like Mark sexy beast Marcus, it's a Twilight character.
If you know, you know. OK, now.
Anyway, so Mark was born January 14th, 83 BC, which makes him 17,
younger than Caesar and 13 years older than Cleopatra.
OK, Caesar's definitely the oldest person we've ever talked
about. Definitely.
I wonder if there'll be anyone that's even older maybe?
Not. I don't think so.
I. Mean there's a lot of those
wicked ancient Egyptians and wicked ancient Rome humans
maybe, I don't know. But again, even if I were to
cover someone like that, there's hardly any history on them, so
it would be like a rapid fire probably.
Yeah, so. I know, I know, Mellie, You've
always kind of wanted to do Mary and Joseph.
But that's still even. That would be after.
Yeah, that would be later. Yeah.
So they would. Be.
Younger like. Neanderthals we could talk
about. I mean, you could do Adam and
Eve I suppose. There could be a lot to talk
about. But for the time being, and
probably for quite a while, Caesar will be the eldest person
we've ever talked about. But As for Mark?
So Mark was the eldest of four children.
He had two younger brothers and a sister who is also younger
than him and his father was a politician and a pirate hunter
named Marcus Antonius so same name.
And his mother was the third cousin of Julius Caesar named
Julia. So Caesar and Mark are semi
distantly related. Interesting.
And apparently Mark and his family are said to be descended
from Hercules. But it's kind of the same thing
as Caesar. You said last night Caesar was
said to be descended from. Oh, who did I say it was?
Oh, now I'm mad at myself for not remembering.
Let me go back. Venus.
No. Yeah, it was Venus.
I think it was Venus. So Caesar was said to be
descended from Venus. And now Marcus says to be
descended from Hercules. But as far as I'm aware,
Hercules and Venus didn't exist, but it's treated like it's a
fact, so I just had to put that in there.
Anyway. So in 74 BC, when Mark was 11,
Mark's dad was elected as an army commander or prater and
sent to the Mediterranean to clear the sea of piracy.
And Mark's dad failed miserably in the job.
He was completely defeated by pirates and the Cretians, people
of the island of Crete who helped them.
And it was so bad that as a result of his failure, everyone
in Mark's family, including him, Mark and we're given 1/3 name or
cognomen of Cretius, which ironically meant conqueror of
Crete. So it was a dig at Mark's dad
and he and the rest of the family were never able to live
it down. So technically Mark, like last
name Cretius, is just like a nickname that was given to
Mark's dad to make fun of him and they had to live with that.
And they couldn't get rid of it. No.
So Game of Thrones. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it will get even more. Pirate stuff.
And they were even especially not able to live the name down
when Marks dad died two years later in 72 BC while fighting in
Crete, still against like the pirates.
So he was defeated. Dang, yeah.
And shortly after his father's death, Mark's mother married a
politician named Cornelius Allentilus.
However, in 63 BC, Cornelius was accused of being part of a coup
to overthrow the current Roman consoles.
And as a result, he was executed by one of those said consoles, a
man named Cicero, who actually came up in the last episode, if
you remember, as one of Cleopatra's biggest haters.
And he will come up more in this episode.
Cicero. And apparently as a young kid,
amongst all this, Mark was said to be brilliant and bright.
But as he got older, he fell into the wrong crowd, a violent
youth gang. And Mark began drinking
excessively. He regularly frequented brothels
and engaged in love affairs. He gambled so much that he
actually amassed a debt of $5,000,000 in today's money and
partook in dangerous, violent campaigns.
I don't know exactly what that last bit necessarily means.
Like campaigns against what? Like or who?
Other gangs? I don't know, but that's what
Plutarch said. But just understand that Anthony
Mark was very much a teenage delinquent.
Wow. And because I know, and because
of all the debt and danger he got himself into, Mark actually
had to flee Rome to Greece. Why people were after him?
Yeah, he had like creditors and no, yeah, he had creditors after
him and he also had other gangs after him.
So what a mess. He just.
Ran away and. He's like a teenager at this
point. Yeah, he's a teenager.
And he stays in Greece actually for a good amount of time
because in 57 BC, at the age of 26, he's still in Greece.
And Mark was invited to join the Roman army on an expedition to
Syria. And at first, Mark declined the
invitation, but eventually agreed when he was offered the
position of cavalry commander. And even though he had no prior
military experience, Mark was a skilled commander and in his
first expedition of Syria he almost single handedly defeated
his enemies. What?
I think maybe just all of his experience in the gangs helped
him out with that. I don't know.
But then after Syria, Mark then commanded a Calvary to Egypt.
Yeah. And I mentioned this in the last
episode, again, lots of mentioned the last episode that
there's a point in time when Cleopatras father, King Ptolemy,
these 12th was banished by the people of Alexandria and that
the Roman army helped restore him to the throne.
Well, Mark was actually part of that Roman force that helped
him, a huge part. Even The work Mark did during
this expedition was pretty much the entire reason Ptolemy
regained his throne in the end. Mark was also the reason there
is less bloodshed than there was.
According to historians near the expedition's end, King Ptolemy
had been so overcome with anger at the Egyptian people that he
wanted to massacre a ton of them.
But Anthony was the one who stepped in and stopped him, and
for many reasons than just that. Mark was looked on and
remembered very kindly by the Egyptian people.
He's also been described as very noble, honorable, compassionate,
a good soldier, approachable, generous, humble, good at giving
relationship advice, a real man of the people.
It was said he would eat with his men, which was said to have
made them all worship him. He's also been said to have a
good sense of humor. All muscle and mirth is how he's
described. He'd laugh at jokes Heather made
at his own expense, and he would hatch practical jokes of his
own. Oh, he sounds like a great guy.
I know he sounds. Like a real cat.
He actually does even like throughout this whole story I
was like, Oh my God, I love Mark.
I don't know. But OK, you said that he helped
like her father, regain power, so does that make him?
How old is Cleopatra when this happened?
Like a little girl? Yeah, so I'll even go into this.
But so when Mark was helping out with this, he was like 26 to,
well, 27 to 28 years old. And that was actually the first
time he ever saw Cleopatra, who at the time would have been
about 1415 years old while he was in Egypt fighting for her
dad. But they did not officially
meet. He only saw her once, apparently
from far away, and she didn't see him.
And again, they didn't officially meet.
And so it wouldn't be for many years later that they would go
on to meet. But he did see her.
But she was 15 and he was 28. OK.
That's good. Yeah.
For our modern yeah, sensibility, yeah.
He didn't like, see her and start pursuing her then or
anything. Mark was also said to be
Herculean. Lee handsome.
Oh which he is a descendant of Hercules so apple doesn't fall
far from the tree or something he had was what was described as
an acculine. Or is it acculine?
I would say acculine. Acculine.
An acculine or boxer nose, A
strong masculine physique, a powerful neck, bouncing curls
and supposedly swaggering air to him.
So really hot, essentially. Really hot.
And he was well liked, so I guess he was the total package,
I suppose. Then after his time in Egypt, in
53 BC, Mark returned to Rome and then in 52 BC he was elected as
the official Roman treasurer, or creaster as they called it.
However, he did not stay in Rome for long as he shortly after
joined Caesar in his conquest of Gaul or today's France, and
apparently he was a great assistance to Caesar during this
conquest. And then after Gaul in 50 BC,
Mark returned again to Rome and was appointed the role of Augur,
which essentially was a religious figure who interpreted
the will of the gods to sanction political and military actions,
which is basically like if you hired a psychic as like counsel
to the president, essentially. How do you how do you spell
that? Augur, AUGUR.
OK. How is he qualified for that?
I don't know. I guess he just sounds like the
ranks and I don't know but. He sounds like he's good with
his hands. Yeah, in the military planning
strategy, I'm sure. But like how does that make him
good at interpreting the gods messages?
I don't know. I think somehow you run for that
role and then you get appointed it.
It was a really high position for some reason to be, you know,
this auger. And it was just like the next
step in his career. I don't know.
I don't know what their perspective was, but maybe
they're like, well, he's had so much success so.
It would be like. Really, he's tapped into
something. Yeah, there would be like a
storm. And they would be like, Auger,
what does this mean for us? And he'd be like, we're going to
win in the next battle, so fight.
OK. So that was his job, but not for
too long, because once again, Mark didn't hold the job for
long, as the following year, with the help of Caesar, Mark
was elected as a Roman Tribune, which was a powerful position
whose role was to represent the people in the Senate and
interview, intervene on their behalf and veto any legislation
that did not benefit them. Wow, it really makes me think
like if you ever get accused of job popping, just be like, you
know, Mark Antony had a new job like every year, so.
And so did. Why can't?
Yay. And James.
Yeah, they're constantly job hopping and they were rich and
powerful and people still love them to this day.
So you know what? Just do it.
If you want a new job, go get it.
Well, around this time, Anthony married one of his cousins named
Antonia Ibrida Minor, and they had a daughter named Antonia.
And that's pretty much all historians know about his love
life at the time. Most of what was recorded about
Mark was his military and political career.
So I really don't have anything else to say about him and his
wife or his marriage at that time.
But he used to go to brothels, yes.
I wonder if he still does. I think he did, at least at this
point of time. Now that he's married.
OK, yeah, later they say he's like one of the most loyal man,
but they don't say that until way later.
So I think at this point he was still skeeving around and
Speaking of his political and military career and not his love
life. As a tribune in the Senate, Mark
allied himself fiercely with Caesar, which was quite
unpopular actually at the time, because at this point the Roman
Civil War was beginning or on the precipice of beginning, and
many believe that Caesar should disband his army.
And when Mark openly questioned their logic, asking why Caesar
should disband his army and not Pompey, or both Caesar and
Pompey, Mark was actually expelled from the Senate.
And then Mark fled to Caesar and Gaul and told him what happened.
And after that, though not wholly because of it, Caesar
took his troops and marched on the city of Rome and thus
officially launched the Roman Civil War.
And during this war, Mark was entrusted by Caesar with the
command of his troops and the administration of Italy, because
Caesar was a way fighting Pompey abroad.
And again, Mark was regarded as a great military leader, but
apparently he was regarded as a lazy politician.
He had no patience for it. And he grew unpopular partially
also because at the same time he took to sleeping with a lot of
Ben's wives, so not faithful to his cousin, which I guess isn't
a bad thing 'cause it's his cousin.
But. Oh my God, is it?
His first cousin. I think it was his first,
really. Oh God, take a drink by the way.
Yeah, Oh yeah. Take a drink.
I am drinking a cider right now. I'm drinking a white cloth
surge. Did you take that?
Oh, you're at home right now? Yeah, I'm at home.
That's all I have to drink. I'm having a Diet Coke.
Nice, nice. Well, Mark was a key figure in
helping Caesar win the civil war and become deep and become
dictator. And as a result Caesar named
then 35 year old Mark Master of the horse, which was a very high
position in Roman society. The Master of horse was
essentially the second in command to the dictator, similar
to a vice president. So when the dictator was absent,
for whatever reason, the master of horse was considered the
highest supreme authority, and that was Mark at the time.
And so Game of Thrones. Yeah, so like the Hand of the
King or whatever. Yeah.
And. Coin Master of Ships.
So he was master of horse. And so when Caesar left in 48 BC
to go to Egypt to quell the Egyptian civil war and then
Romance Queen Cleopatra, Mark was left as the supreme
authority in Rome. And like I said before, Mark was
not a good politician. He did a very pissed poor job
during the two years Caesar was away.
You say piss poor. Yeah, piss poor.
You said it's a like matter of fact.
I know. Did a piss poor job.
Well, that's me rephrasing how it's described by Plutarch,
essentially. Apparently he reverted back in
his old ways. He drank excessively, spent
money lavishly, and engaged in numerous affairs.
He was known to be either drunk or hungover most of the time and
everyone was dissatisfied or disgusted by him.
Apparently he would show up to like Senate meetings and just
like, throw up and fall asleep. Oh my.
God. Like, wow, I know, not a great
look for Mark. And Caesar, when he came back
from Egypt, was also dissatisfied and disgusted by
him. He actually stripped Mark of his
title and his job was given to somebody else.
What do you think his problem was?
Yeah. Like what inner demon was
causing this destructive behavior?
I don't. Even know what I think it's just
like left to his own devices. It was crazy or something.
He just can't be left to his own whims or something.
I don't know. But thankfully, more structure.
Yeah. But thankfully, because he was
stripped of his title in 46 BC, this kind of shocked Mark out of
his scandalous ways. And this is kind of the last
time he goes down this dark path.
And he cleaned up his act almost immediately.
He still was, kind of. Rock.
Bottom. Yeah, he hit rock bottom and he
was thankfully swimming back up to the surface, who's still kind
of close to Caesar, but their friendship was a little rocky
because of this, so he tried to get better relationship with
Caesar. So yeah, he cleaned up his act.
And part of cleaning up his act was actually divorcing his wife
and then marrying another woman in 47 or 46 by BC when Mark was
either 36 or 37 and it. Doesn't seem right.
I know but I know she's his cousin.
I know. I don't know if also like his
ex-wife was enabling his behavior or what.
Which sucks. I know we've had couples like
this in the past but. Oh what?
Like he finally gets better when he like, leaves for somebody.
Else and his new wife was actually a woman named Folvia,
and she had been the wife of one of Mark's late best friends who
died during the Civil War. And many people, including
Cicero, speculate that Mark and her may have had an affair while
his friends. Still alive?
That's crazy. That could be like its own store
right now. Literally.
And this So Mark getting with Cleopatra isn't the first time
actually that Mark gets with the widow of one of his friends.
I'll talk more about that later. And apparently Folvia was not
the type of woman to be a housewife or submissive to her
husband. According to Plutarch, her
desire was to govern those who governed or to command a
commander in chief, and that she broke in and schooled Mark to
accept the sway of women. So she kind of helped him clean
up his act also and basically become a loyal husband.
Nice. Yeah, and apparently later,
skipping ahead, I don't spoil too much, but Cleopatra thanked
Folvia for making Mark such a good husband, essentially.
Interesting. Yeah.
Sister Wives I. Don't know how I feel about
that. Well, going back to the current
timeline that we're on, Folvia and Mark would go on to have two
children together. But the same year that Mark and
Folvia married Cleopatra, then about 24 traveled to Rome for
the first time at the Hippohusk of Caesar, which we talked about
at length in the last episode. So again, go listen to that.
And she was there alongside her and Caesar's one year old child
Caesarian. And this would have been the
first time she and Mark officially met, like I said
before, because they met before kind of in a way, but this would
be the first time they really met met.
But they're both in relationships.
Yeah, she's with Caesar and he's with Volvia.
Oh, it just seems like last time, like he was at the house
or something, but they didn't talk.
He just saw her, essentially. Yeah, Yeah.
So it wasn't love at first sight.
No, no because she was also like 15, which maybe at that point in
time would have been more chill, but even Mark himself didn't
think it was love at first sight.
And nothing happened back then and nothing happened also during
this time when she was in Rome with Caesar as far as we know.
But it seems like nothing happened and nothing would
happen until after Caesar's death.
Now, I didn't mention this in the last episode, but Mark was
actually kind of inadvertently part part of the reason why
Caesar was assassinated. Kind of what it wasn't him doing
it, but I'll explain. So in 44 BC, Mark was elected as
one of the two consuls of Rome. This was the highest legal
administrative office in the Roman government beneath Caesar,
who was once again dictator. And Mark was very faithful to
Caesar. He seemingly worshipped him even
despite any past bad blood they had between them.
And so one day in February of 44 BC, during a festival, Mark
fashioned a crown out of lower and placed it on Caesar's head.
And Caesar declined the crown twice, But the damage was
already done. By making crown and putting it
on Caesar's head, it was kind of signifying that Caesar either
should be or was already king of Rome.
And the people of Rome did not like that idea at all.
Kings to them meant the destruction of liberty, as
opposed to dictator, which was their name for a ruler and
elected for. Democracy.
Yeah, democracy, even though dictator has a weird
connotation. Now, yeah, because Rome, he was
a Republic and dictator was an elected republican, elected
authority in a Republic anyway, so.
It's kind of cute that Mark, like, I guess loved him so much.
He was like, I put this little crown on you, like stop it and
he put it back on him. Yeah, I mean, it's really
unknown why Mark did it. It could be because he's trying
to like suck up to Caesar by saying he should be king, or he
truly thought so and did it out of blind devotion by being like
here you're king. I don't know.
Some people also think Caesar had Mark do it to show that
people to show the people that he wasn't king, or maybe gosh,
the public's reaction to him being king.
But either way, like I said, the deed did not go over well.
And a month later, on March 15th, Caesar was assassinated.
Possibly related to that because he thought he was getting too
powerful. Yeah, and could.
Some people want him to be king, yeah.
Exactly. And initially, he didn't stab
him. No, he wasn't.
No, he was just kind of a smoking gun.
But he didn't do the stabbing. He wasn't a part of the coup
against him. No, but he should have been a
little smarter, yeah. Again, he's not a good
politician or. Political.
Person When it comes to war, yes.
Politics, no. So initially Mark fled Rome
because he feared he would be next, but then he realized that
that was not the case. So he returned back and was made
the state's treasurer once again and in charge of Caesar's
papers. And on March 19th, it was
revealed that Caesar named his grandnephew Octavian Augustus,
his heir. And immediately Mark hated this
quote UN quote boy, as he called him, because was.
He not a little boy. No.
Well, Augustus was 18, which was young to that I suppose.
So some historians think that Mark hated Augustus because
Mark, for whatever reason, thought that he was going to be
adopted and named Air by Caesar. I don't know why.
What, like Mark who was like in his 30s like.
Married with kids. Yeah.
And so when Augustus reached room, Mark initially started
challenging his inheritance. And so, because Mark didn't
really have a claim, he threw his weight heavily behind
Cleopatra and her son's claim to the throne, but to no avail.
Cleopatra left for Egypt with her son shortly after, and two
years would pass before they would see each other again.
OK, you're going back to Egypt. Yeah, but she is.
Yeah, and like I said, Mark did not like Augustus, and the
feeling was mutual. There was rumors at the time
that Augustus was pronged to kill Mark, unsure if true, but
most likely it was. Augustus was also convinced that
Cicero, Mark's other nemesis, the one that killed Mark's
stepfather, to give a series of public speeches that proclaimed
Mark as an enemy of the state and a tyrant.
And for that reason, many others Mark was driven out of Italy to
Gaul, where he was eventually defeated in battle against
Augustus's force. And that's the end of the story.
What do you mean that's the story?
No, I'm just kidding. Anyway, so that's not it.
Mark didn't die. Augustus did defeat him in
battle, but he did spare him for some reason, I don't know why,
and the two formed a truce. So in 43 BCA year after Caesar's
death, Augustus, Mark and another man named Lepidus formed
was called the Second Triumvirate and divided the
empire amongst the three of them.
And as part of this truce, Augustus had Cicero killed as a
sacrifice to appease. Mark what?
But wasn't Cicero part of the Yeah, Cicero?
No, he wasn't he. Was like an ally with Augustus
but Mark really wanted him dead so Augustus had him killed.
Damn. OK.
Yeah, and contrary to Caesar, who?
Diplomatic, I guess. Yeah, and contrary to Caesar,
who I talked about last episode, who when he was brought the head
of his enemy, he was really upset by it and didn't like it.
Mark on the other hand, when he got Cicero's head, he had it
displayed. That's a.
Turn. Off so not a good look for Mark,
but he kind of is a brute. But that was ancient Rome, so.
Different time back then Take a drink.
Take a drink. I actually need to take a drink.
My throat. 'S he's kind of reminding me of
like, oh, I know, sorry, Mel, I know you didn't watch Game of
Thrones, but like Oberyn Tyrell or something.
I think he's very similar. That's Pedro Pascal's character,
yeah. Surrounding me of him, I feel
like he would like the head of an enemy too.
Definitely he wanted to kill that mountain guy and probably
would have liked to have his head anyway.
Sorry Mel. So.
This one to just connect it to something that you feel like you
really understand, you know? Yeah.
I see the reference exactly why Dora Dora Martin wrote it like
that, yeah. He's definitely very inspired by
this time period and these families.
So. So anyway, back to the story.
Through Augustus's and Mark's truce, they joined their forces
to wage war on Brutus and Cassius, two men who had been
involved in the assassination of Caesar and both were killed by
the end of the war. They did what they want to do
and after the war, Mark went to Greece and then Turkey.
And while in Turkey, Mark sent for Cleopatra to join him as he
had heard rumors that she had funded Cassius forces against
Augustus during the war. I'm not sure if she did or not,
there's no record of it, but if she did it might have been
because she thought that with Augustus dead her sights her son
might be made Caesar's heir. So even though she wasn't happy
about Caesar being dead and probably doesn't like Brutus or
Cassius, the men who killed him, she probably thought that they
had a like minded enemy. So the enemy of my enemy is my
friend. So.
That's probably why. So initially, Cleopatra didn't
want to go to see Mark, in part because she disliked being
bossed around and told what to do, being that she was a queen
and who was Mark to tell her what to do?
And she might have also feared what would happen to her if she
were to go. The stakes were very high.
But then Cleopatra was apparently told, according to
Plutarch, that Mark was the gentlest and most chivalrous of
generals, and that she shouldn't fear him.
She had known him from her previous time in Rome.
But they most we did not know one another in a personal
capacity. So this was kind of the first
time she really was told and really understood who he was.
And so in 41 BC, at the age of 28, Cleopatra went to Turkey to
convene with Mark, who was then 42 years old.
OK, not too bad. Definitely a smaller age gap
than her and Caesar. Yeah, it's only 13 years.
Meanwhile her age gap with Caesar was 30 years.
Pretty big. So Cleopatra went to see Mark.
However, she did it on her own terms, so not theirs.
Supposedly she was to meet Mark at his throne in Turkey as soon
as she arrived, but against his orders, she sailed from the
Sidneyus River in a golden barge with purple sails and orchestra
aboard. Her attendees dressed as cupids
and sea nymphs, and herself dressed as Venus as she lounged
in the canopy. Oh, is she?
So over the top. She's she's there on it, like
she wants to get together with him.
No. So it was in a romantic cast.
He like going to seduce him. I mean, it could have been, but
what she was really trying to signify to him is like, I'm
queen, Yeah, I'm queen, and you're not even the dictator of
Rome, so bow to me. Does seem like she's coming in
hot though. She's.
Yeah. All dolled up.
I love the theatrics of it just 'cause I watched the Grammys
last night. It's just so modern in a way,
like our outfits and our decoration.
Very much so. And when she sailed down the
river, she did not go to where he was waiting to meet her, but
to her temporary address in the city.
And her entrance, like I said, was her mind mark, that she was
queen and not a simple servant he could boss around.
And not only that, but to get his attention and thrall him, so
to say. So not seduce him, but just like
he goes to Greece, he goes to Turkey, he goes all these places
and people pull up all the stops to impress him.
So she knows she has a lot of competition in doing so.
She she really has to really do something big to get his
attention. So Mark at the time did control
the East, including Egypt. And Cleve Hatcher knew it would
be best not to stay on his bad side.
And after ignoring his letters to meet for months, she knew she
needed to basically woo him. She's been there for months.
And she's just been, yeah, he's been there for months.
And she's just been ignoring his letters saying like, come meet,
you know? Wow.
And she did get his attention, especially also the people of
Turkey's attention. Word spread very quickly that
Cleopatra had arrived, and once it did, everyone was captivated.
Apparently, the marketplace near where Mark was waiting for her
had completely emptied out just so they could go to the
riverbank and watch her. And soon after she arrived,
Cleopatra sent word to Mark that Venus had arrived to revel with
Bacchus for the good of Asia. And if you don't know which I
didn't, is the Roman God of agriculture, wine and fertility,
which is the equivalent to the Greek God Dionysies, which may
seem rhymed them to call him Dionysies, but it wasn't for no
reason her calling him that Mark actually was declared the new
Dionysies or Dionysies the back benefactor and joybringer during
his time in Greece. So she's basically saying like
I'm Venus and Guru Dionysies and we're going to getting together
to. Damn.
Yeah, so she's kind of wooing him in that way just to get on
his good side. I actually knew that about
Bacchus because my fave place in New Orleans, I've only been
twice, but fave place is this place called Bacchanal Wine Bar.
It's so cool. It's like a house with a
backyard and the whole place. It's cool.
Christmas lights. I'm like, I don't, I love it.
But anyway, it's called Bacanel Wine Bar.
And we were wondering like, what does that mean?
And we looked it up. So I actually knew that.
Wow. Yeah, I did not know that so.
After that's kind of flirty. It is a little bit.
So after Mark received her message, he sent one back,
inviting her to dinner where he was staying.
But Cleopatra in response said no, Come have dinner at my
place. And Mark was hard to get
frustrated. Yeah, definitely playing hard
get. We don't really know.
But it was recorded by Plutarch that he accepted her invitation
nonetheless, whether he was frustrated or not.
So and so to show his supposed courtesy and goodwill.
And apparently her banquet was magnificent beyond words and
decked out in an extraordinary number of candles, A true
spectacle. And they dined every night
afterward, all at Cleopatra's insurmountable expense.
Apparently, at the end of every night, all the furniture and
tableware and decorations would go home with the guests, and
then the very next night there would be all new stuff.
Wow. So she was really flaunting her
wealth. And one time she even had a foot
of roses blanket the entire floor.
A. Foot.
Yeah. So like the roses were all up to
like your knees. That would be so fun.
It would be. Like snow?
Oh, that's crazy. Yeah, I'd be like snow.
You're just waiting for roses. They're so lucky back then, they
probably don't have to worry about like, being wasteful.
I know global warming and everything.
But still, that would be hard to get.
It would be hard to get. I know it must have been
expensive. I don't know.
Maybe Turkey has a lot of roses, I don't know.
Must. Have been so expensive.
Are they in like Constantinople? No, they're not.
They're in another city, but I don't remember which.
But it wasn't constant example. So anyway, eventually Mark felt
that it was time to reciprocate all her generosity.
So a week or so after their first dinner, he invited
Cleopatra to a banquet of his own.
He apparently tried to surpass her in hospitality and
extravagance, but again, according to Plutarch, he was
hopelessly outdone on both fronts and was the 1st to make
fun of himself and the less than quality banquet he planned.
Cleopatra didn't seem to mind however, and was actually taken
with his humor and his crudeness and that mark seemed more akin
to a soldier than a courtsier, and as a result it seemed that
she was able to loosen up and act more herself around him.
When he cracked jokes, she joked right back and there was an ease
to their interactions. I know this sounds really
stupid. I don't know if you guys will
get it, but this story and Caesar for some reason reminds
me the courtship getting together kind of reminds me of
like The Sims when you want people to get together and so
you just like start funny conversations, say flirty
conversation. Like you just keep like hitting
the prompts and like the more time they spend together, even
if you're like forcing it, it just happens.
It's like the love meter just keeps growing and growing.
I feel that I get that. Maybe because we don't know what
exactly they were cracking jokes.
Yeah, exactly. So far away, yeah, but it is
like we're God just watching like this.
Yeah, yeah, we know true jokes, but we don't know what.
And we can't watch like interviews or something.
Yeah, well, his story, yeah. Back to the story anyway.
Historian Stacey shifts surmise that Mark brought out a side of
Cleopatra that no one in their entourage had ever seen before.
And supposedly, and Mark's own words later in life, Turkey was
where Cleopatra and Mark first began their relationship.
Like, physically, yeah. Sexually.
Definitely. On the barge.
Probably happened last time. I don't.
Know it did happen last time. I mean, just like last time with
her relationship with Caesar. Many historians and secondary
sources believe that their relationship was born out of
convenience and political aspirations, and most normally,
once again they believe Cleopatra was the perpetrator
who purposely ensnared Mark with her sexuality.
However, actually, unlike last time Plutarch, who was only a
few years old at the time when all this went down in Turkey,
but even still he is a very close primary source.
He's waged that what Mark Cleopatra had was indeed a love
affair, but that it just so happened to harmonize well with
other matters at hand. So to say.
It was kind of like hitting two birds with one stone type of
situation. Yeah, like kind of modern
couples today, like they might have alter your motives for
being together or they might have career aspirations that
benefit from them being together, but that doesn't mean
they're not in love. Exactly.
And I don't really know how Plutarch came to this
conclusion. He might have had insider
knowledge or something, I don't know, but considering how
seemingly biased and pessimistic everyone else seemed to be once
again 1st century Roman writers, I choose to believe his
interpretation about the rest. But that's just me.
Listen to the rest of the episode and let me know what you
think. But anyway, if you do believe
like me that Cleopatra and Mark were indeed romantic and sexual,
then we had to acknowledge the elephants in the room or rather
ghost Julius Caesar because Mark and Caesar have been friends and
Caesar and Cleopatra used to be couple and now Mark and
Cleopatra are together and it's like what does this mean?
And is it even ethical? I don't know I mean not ethical,
you know what I mean. But basically like is it weird
that Mark got with his friends widow?
Yes, which this is not the first time this has happened on
significant lovers. It happened.
We covered Hunter Biden getting with his brother's widow, his
sister-in-law, Hallie Biden. And we also talked about, though
we didn't cover this couple, Elizabeth Taylor getting with
what's the guy's name? Oh, yeah, Eddie Fisher.
Oh, getting with Eddie Fisher best.
Yeah, best friends with her husband that died.
Yeah. Yes.
True, true, true. Yeah, we also didn't cover it
also, but Stevie Nicks got with her friend's widow also.
But again, didn't really happen. It does happen.
And I also asked on Patreon, would you ever engage in a
relationship with the widow of one of your late friends?
And 46% said no, never. And 50% said it very much
defends. Only 4% said yeah, why not?
OK, yeah, I guess it's kind of. I love those guys.
It's weird to say yes if you're not.
Like if that hasn't happened to you yet, 'cause then it's like,
which friend are you looking at? Really?
Like if you died, I'm deaf and like going after your husband.
It's like, weird to know. That I expect the honesty I
love. It I think the only instance
where you might be like yeah is if you earlier kind of have an
attraction before your friend passes away.
Yeah. Holy crap, it's weird to think
of that being like premeditated sad.
Interesting question, Caitlin. Can you wait?
Can you repeat? Besides the people said yes,
what was the response? Most people said no.
So the most response was it very much depends with 50%, but 46%
said no, never. Oh, so most people were on like
it depends slash yes, true. Yeah, kind of like you never
know. I guess the question.
We can group them together, yeah.
The question is more, if you happened to fall in love with
your friend's widow or widower, would it stop you that?
Yeah. They used to be with your
friend. Like would that prevent you from
getting together? And I guess a lot of these folks
are saying no, love is love. If you happen to fall in love,
like that's not a deal breaker for me that you used to be with
my friend. Wow.
It would be hard too, though. The ghost of your friend would
always be there. Yeah.
And it might not turn out as romantic as you think.
He or she, like they could be missing your friend.
And you might feel like you never really can match your
friend, you know? And that would be kind of hard
to deal with mentally. Yeah.
I also would have a hard time thinking of that person as
anyone other than their spouse's spouse.
I guess like my friend's spouse, I would just even after their
even after my friend died, I would have a hard time thinking
of them as anyone else you know. And I mean, it's happened on the
show, and it does seem like the grief can really profoundly bond
people in a way that brings them close and then turns romantic.
But I also think I would feel guilty thinking the only reason
I'm with them is because my friend died.
And I mean, it's sometimes it's nice like that, you know, from
every rainstorm there's a rainbow that like something nice
and happy can come from something so sad.
But I still think I would feel, I mean, nothing you can do to
change it. But if my friend wouldn't hadn't
died, I wouldn't be with this person.
Made a couple patrons who had opinions on the matter.
Also, Heather said depends, death might end up bringing two
people together in a way not previously thought of or
explored, which definitely could.
Like, you never know, the world works in a mysterious way or
whatever. But.
So I guess Heather's kind of open to the idea, but probably
wouldn't. I don't know, like she's not
going to hop on her friend's spouse now, but maybe if their
friend died. I don't.
Know. Sorry other, don't put that on
other. Anyway.
Yeah, So anyway, Zoe commented. No, never.
I don't think I could bring myself to be with my late
friend's partner personally. Even if the friend gave consent
prior to the passing, the ACT feels inherently selfish and
borderline disrespectful. Am I being too harsh?
No, I don't think you're being too harsh.
I I do think I would feel it would feel kind of wrong most of
the time. It'd be hard not to think of
your friend. Yeah, even if, if, even if your
friend said it was OK or something.
Yeah, I know. Everybody's different.
That's what. That would be crazy though if on
your friend's deathbed was like, you can get with my husband or
something. I know, I know people say like I
want my, like they want you to be happy.
I bet that's what they want you to be, you know?
Like I just want my spouse to be happy after I die or whatnot.
But they can always be happy with a stranger anyway.
So Thelma commented absolutely not.
It'd be so disrespectful for the grieving process.
So very mixed opinions on here and Melanie commented Never Girl
code extends past death. I do think it would be weird for
the living like friend group or family.
They would kind of be like, what the hell?
Yeah, it would, yeah. Especially if there's kids
involved. I think it could make it more
painful. This happened on the show This
Is Us and everyone. A lot of the fans hated the
friend that Rebecca Pearson, the main character, gets with after
her husband passes away. But I actually am a strong
defender of Miguel. If you guys watch This Is Us, I
think it happened very organically over a long period
of time. Their grief and their love for
Jack the character brought them together and eventually on the
show two people come to respect him as Rebecca's wife and the
stepfather and all that. Yeah, because I'm, I'm kind of
mixed on it. Like I do kind of agree with
Heather, like death might bring two people together.
I do see the other side of it being kind of weird.
But I think also for kids, they might like more that the person
that their parent end up with is someone they know and like
already. Then maybe you can see stranger,
you know? So I think it, it just depends
this thing. But at the same time, it could
be like you're going behind so and so's back or something.
It's very complicated. It's very complicated.
Kate, did you? This is a different scenario.
What I used to think, it's not friends, but when I was little,
I used to think that our Nana from our dad's side and our
grandpa and our mom's side. Should.
Get together. I think I used to think that too
because I was just like, they're both. 02 old people.
They're both single, like they're both widows.
Yeah. I thought it was going to happen
and. Especially since for some
reason, I bet because prior to my birth, my grandma on my mom's
side and my grandpa on my dad's side passed away.
But growing up in our kitchen, we just had a picture of my
grandfather on my mom's side and my grandma on my dad's side
together. And I think when I was a kid, I
actually thought they were a couple because they were the
only grandparents I knew and they, like, we had a picture of
them together. They were both your.
Godparents understood, yeah, they were my godparents, so I
just thought they were a couple. And then I think once I found
that they weren't, I was like, why aren't?
Why aren't? They I know and they would like
be at family parties together. And yeah, I just thought that
they would be together. So I can imagine little kids.
I don't know about a teenager. I'm sure a teenager would be
like what the fuck? But.
Yeah, but if you're a kid A. Little kid might actually like
it. Yeah, But kind of another
question which I didn't pose to the patrons, but I guess I'll
post to you guys because Melanie commented like Girl Code.
Do you think it changes things if it's a man getting with his
male friend's widow as opposed to a woman getting with her
female friend's widow? Or is it the same or is it
different? Like does it matter?
In my experience, and this is not true for everybody, but I do
feel like from the friends, the guy friends I've had over the
years, that bro code is not as strong as girl code a lot of the
times. And it might be because boys
don't really talk about their feelings as much with each
other. And so I've seen it plenty of
times where a guy and his girlfriend will break up and
then later the guy, the guy's friend will get with that girl
and they never even discuss it. They never even get mad.
They just like don't talk about it.
But like they might bottle up their feelings and being like,
that's weird that my friend did that.
But they don't know that it's wrong because they don't like
talk about it with each other and like establish boundaries
and like expectations in their friendship the way girls do so.
And maybe not the case for everyone, but I feel like guys
just like assume each other don't care.
I'm not sure about wait, what would you even call this time
period? Ancient.
I'm not sure about ancient Rome
and Egypt, what the bro code was like then, but I feel like As
for North America 21st century, I agree with Mel.
I know Charlie, my boyfriend has told this story to me before
about how like he has his friend who he's still friends with, but
he always says like, oh, did you know we got in a fight once
because one of them dated the other's ex.
I can't even remember who it was and it was like in middle school
or something. I think they like punched each
other. Oh my God.
But then they But then they were all good.
Yeah, yeah, they don't. Like just.
Yeah. Surface level I don't know.
Yeah, they like guys will break up, go through a breakup and
their friends won't even ask them like, well, what happened?
Like, do you want to talk about it?
Like I. Know they don't know.
Anything at all, it's nothing that's.
Crazy. They're just like, oh shit, man,
that sucks. Yeah, anyway.
Girls know every intricate detail like we go.
Over it all, the. Details OK, let's start from the
beginning. Blah blah blah.
Yeah. And then we start again, harder.
For a girl to get with her friend's widow because you
probably know all the details of their relationship.
Already. To it, but with like a man with
his male friend's widow, you probably know nothing about that
relationship, so you kind of go in with a fresh slate.
That's true. She's like basically a stranger
to you. Weren't Marc Anthony and
Cleopatra married? Yeah, wasn't he?
I Who? Marc.
Anthony when they got together. Doesn't he have a wife?
Well, he has a wife, yeah. Cleopatra Single though.
Oh, oh, OK. What happened to Ptolemy?
Her second brother, he's dead at this point in time.
OK, She had him killed. Nice.
Oh nice. Nice, nice.
All right. Well, kind of.
Speaking of actually killing siblings, Cleopatra had to cut
their burgeoning romance short, leaving after only a few weeks
in Turkey with Mark to turn back to her throne in Egypt.
She was facing many threats against her reign while she's
away, most notably from her sister and nephew, who both
claimed to be the rightful rulers.
But with Mark's help, Cleopatra didn't face those threats for
long, because soon after their My time in Turkey, Mark had
Cleopatra's sister and nephew executed.
And many people suspect Mark did this at Cleopatra's behest.
But she is she. OK with that.
Definitely. She was definitely OK with that.
I mean, she killed her other brother.
Yeah. So she had her sister and her
nephew killed. Harsh.
Different time. I think at this point in time,
like literally all of her siblings were dead.
Oh. My gosh.
And most because she wanted them dead.
But anyway, she needs Jesus in the fall.
Jesus isn't alive yet. But anyway in the fall, 41 BC,
41 years before Jesus would be born.
Not to get too religious on Maine, but anyway, a couple
months after Turkey, Cleopatra invited Mark to Egypt and he
went. And many historians suspect that
he went there not wholly for Cleopatra, but also for politics
and business purposes. But Mark actually did not travel
with a military escort, nor the Insignia of auspice.
He apparently adopted the dress and way of life of an ordinary
person. So essentially, he was just
there to be with Cleopatra and be a Taurus with no seemingly
official motive behind it, no strings attached.
And during his time in Alexandria, Mark and Cleopatra
started a drinking club called the Intimidable Livers and threw
numerous banquets and parties together.
Wow, yeah, sounds. They were also said.
No, they knew back then that the liver processed alcohol.
I know. I think the Egyptians figured it
out first, but correct me if I'm wrong.
How did they even know? Like what?
The organs I guess they get when you die.
Maybe they do an autopsy. Yeah, because they were doing
like mummification and stuff. And they would.
Take him. Body parts and stuff.
Anyway, not Speaking of body parts, Mark and Cleopatra were
said to be inseparable, spending all their time together.
Wherever he went, she followed, and vice versa, Pletark wrote.
She played dice with him, she drank with him, haunted with
him, and watched him as he exercised in arms.
And at night, when he would station himself with the common
folk, she would go with him on his rounds of mad Follies,
wearing the garb of a servant maiden.
Interesting. And while he was with Cleopatra,
yeah, it kind of reminds me of Aladdin in a way.
Oh yeah. I don't know, it's a little
cute. Anyway, while he was with
Cleopatra in Egypt, Mark turned his back on Rome and didn't
meddle much with politics. He didn't really care about any
of it so long as he remained on Augustus's good side.
And little did he know, his wife Folvia and his brother, Mark's
brother had incited a war against Augustus.
And we're trying to lure Mark away from Alexandria to come
help him. But when Mark found out, instead
of dropping everything to help them, he was furious.
Not only had they dragged him away from Cleopatra because he
did have to leave Cleopatra behind to go talk with them in
Greece, but they were challenging his already rocky
alliance he had with Augustus. So he left without saying
goodbye and without joining their cause.
And shortly after that, in early 40 BC, Fulvia passed away due to
illness or maybe suicide, historians don't really know.
But she and Mark never got to talk to each other ever again.
Like that was the last time Fulvia and Mark saw one another.
Wow. And Mark felt very guilty and
blamed himself for it. He also felt guilty for using
her and her death as a scapegoat to Augustus because to quell
Caesar's adopted son, Mark told him that Fovea only started the
war out of jealousy and wanting Mark away from Clay Patra.
Yeah so to get on my guess this is good side.
He was like it wasn't that serious, it was just jealousy.
Don't take what she did as anything against me.
I had nothing to do with it lol. Well, you know.
And Augusta seemed to have bought the lie, but instead on
seemed to have bought the lie but insisted on solidifying his
and Mark's alliance even further so nothing of that sort would
happen again. And then Mark apparently wanted
to marry Cleopatra. He even referred to her already
as his wife. But Augustus didn't want that to
happen. He didn't want Cleopatra, who
was one of his nemesis and who had a lot of money, to partner
with Mark and give Mark more power and give Cleopatra more
power. Because yeah, Cleopatra and her
sons with Caesar were already a threat to a spot in Roman
society and would be even more of a threat with Mark on her
side. And so instead of Mark, Mary and
Cleopatra, Augustus offered his half sister Octavia up to Mark
as part of the truce. No.
This complicates it even more. And apparently the news did not
go over well in Alexandria for the people and for Cleopatra.
Not just because Cleopatra hated Augustus, but also because the
same month Mark and Octavia wed, which was December of 40 BC,
Cleopatra gave birth to twins. What?
His twins. Yeah, his twins, yes.
Oh my gosh. She survived.
That. I know she had a boy and a girl,
Alexander Hilos and Cleopatra Celine and both of which like I
said, were the children of Mark. And I should mention that Caesar
on Caesar's Kid was about 7 years old at the time.
OK, so she's a single mom. Yep, her baby daddy and.
You can't even like potentially say like, oh, it was her
husband's because she wasn't married so.
Yeah, gosh. And does he know?
Does he know that she was pregnant?
I mean, how do you hide that she's part of a twin?
Yeah, he knew and he wanted to marry her, but he was kind of
had his hands tied and had to marry Augustus's sister instead.
But. Couldn't he just say fuck off to
Augustus? Because Augustus wouldn't have
liked that. And he'd have been like kicked
out of Rome or something. I don't know.
You'd have been like a pariah. I don't know.
I. Can't believe that you could
survive at that time period completely unmedicated with no
medical intervention whatsoever carrying twins and giving birth.
That's crazy, I know. And like the the babies usually
like twins are born premature, that the babies don't even need
any medical intervention, that they serve well.
Did they survive? Yeah, they did.
Wow, that's incredible. I know it's actually very
fortunate. But on the flip side,
unfortunately for Mark, he was unable to meet his newborns as
he was made to stay in Rome with his new wife.
Apparently, they were both paraded around the country like
celebrities. They were marketed as a sign of
hope and peace for the Roman people, kind of like a royal
wedding today, like something to distract the common people,
placate them, give them something to be happy and
excited about and not cool. Yeah.
Anyway, in 39 or 38 BC, Octavia gave birth to her and Mark's
first child, a daughter. So he was with Octavia at this
time, even though he did have kids with Cleopatra off in
Egypt. So he's a lot of kids kind of
giving Jude Law right now. He has.
I know for real because he has two from his previous marriage
and then he has 2 with Cleopatra and then he has one with Cle and
then he has one with Octavia and then he has another with
Octavia. In 36 BC his second daughter
both were named Athena or Antonia.
So that brings him up to six kids.
OK, so he didn't have any kids with his second wife.
Wait. No.
So his first wife, he had one. So he had seven.
He had one with his first wife, 2 with his second wife, 2 with
Cleopatra and then two with Octavia.
Oh my God, Seven kids, four different women right now.
This is getting to be a lot. He also there was no basis to it
so didn't include it. Some people thought he had
another wife before his first wife and had kids with her but
there was no evidence to suggest it so I didn't include it.
And people also said that maybe he also had bastards also, so he
might have had a bunch of other kids.
Oh my gosh. So there's like potentially a
lot of people who are descendant from Mark Anthony probably out
here. Yeah, probably, yeah.
Apparently, even though he was married to Octavia, Mark and
Augustus did not get along at all.
I think in part because Mark was forced to marry a Octavia and
they would regularly need Octavia as a peacemaker between
them. However, try as you might, by 37
BC Mark had reached his final straw with Augustus, the straw
that broke the camel's back. And so Mark wrote to Cleopatra
telling her to meet him in Greece, and she did so at once.
And this was the first time that they had seen one another in 3
1/2 years since Mark left to put down Fulvia's war all those
years ago. And this was also the first time
Mark had met his children, now almost three years old, and both
of which, thankfully, Mark claimed as his own, which was
something Caesar had never done with his own child.
That's nice. And soon after reuniting in
Greece, Mark and Cleopatra wed, as many historians suspect, and
coins began circulating with joint portraits of the two
signifying their union. So do people not have to get
divorced back then? They did, but I think they just
like had a ceremony saying that they were married.
And so. As for Octavia, Mark's other
wife, when he left to be with Cleopatra in 37 Basie, that was
the last time he ever saw her. He would never see her again.
Wow. And not their kids either.
He did, I think, see their kids, but less so than he did his
other kids. Yeah, wow.
Yeah, so poor Octavia, I guess. But now Mark and Cleopatra we're
back together and most likely married.
And Mark gifted Cleopatra the island of Cyprus, as well as
parts of Libya, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Turkey and Crete.
And by the end of 37 BC, she ruled most of the entire eastern
Mediterranean coast. But that's not all Mark gave
her. In August or September of 36 BC,
Cleopatra gave birth to their third child, a son named Ptolemy
Philadelphius. Wow, it's interesting she used
that name. I know like another Ptolemy.
Technically her eldest son is also called Ptolemy, although
everyone calls him caesarean. SO2 Ptolemies.
Wow. And once again, Mark was not
there for the birth again, as he was off on a military campaign
against the Parthian Empire. Cleopatra had actually gone with
him initially, but when she was close to giving birth, Mark sent
her back to Egypt to deliver their child there because he was
like, no, war zone is the place for you to give birth.
So, yeah, OK. So now he.
Is even though they wanted. Yeah.
Yeah, because even though they want to spend all their time
together, he was like, I have to be a military leader and you go
back and give birth, OK. And a couple months after giving
birth, however, Mark did send for her again, and apparently
would obsessively watch the shore awaiting her return.
He was far more concerned with that than anything else Putok
wrote, for so eager was he to spend the winter with her that
he began the war before the proper time and managed
everything confusedly. He was ever looking eagerly
toward towards her and thinking more of her speedy return than
of conquering the enemy. And at this time, while he was
off on his campaign, Octavia tried to come and see Mark.
She even sailed all the way to just do that, but Mark sent her
away without laying a single eye on her.
And so Octavia went back to Rome, a woman's board which then
her brother really did not appreciate.
That's sad. She sailed all this way.
Yeah. And he was like, I don't want to
see you. Yep, and Augustus, who is now 28
or 29 years old, began to vocally trash Mark's reputation
in Rome for what he did to Octavia.
He also. Runs to be that way, like he I.
Know he. Set his sister up for this in
the first place. I know he knew Mark wanted to
marry Cleopatra and be with Cleopatra.
You shouldn't have. Yeah, made them marry.
I guess he thought making them marry would keep Mark in line,
but Oh well. And so Augustus also had Lepidus
arrested the man who, if you remember, was the third part of
his and Mark's political alliance.
So now it basically was just Augustus and Mark.
There was no other person. They were the ones that were in
charge of Rome at this time. OK.
And because of Augustus, the people of Rome began to sour
against Mark, not just for the Octavia stuff, but also because
Mark went to war and won against the Armenian king after the king
declined a marriage alliance between one of the Armenian
princesses and Cleopatra and Mark's first son Alexander.
So after the king said, no, I'm not marrying my son, my daughter
to your son, Yeah, he started a war.
Yeah, he went to war with Armenia and the Armenian
comedian king and he gone. Yeah.
And he captured the king and his family and just like held them
as prisoner. And like and then.
Because. Because.
He said no. Marriage proposal that he said
no to? Yeah.
Yeah, it does seem a little dramatic.
I can see the common people, like we're not risking our lives
so that your son can marry an Armenian Princess.
Yeah. What?
They also just thought it was like a waste also because they
didn't really care about Cleopatra's and Mark's sons
because they love Mark and Octavia back in Rome.
They're like, who cares about Cleopatra and Mark and their
kids? That's not who we care about.
Like that's we don't like that, which also soured the opinion of
Mark. Mark and Cleopatra in 34 BC held
a ceremony in Alexandria where they sat side by side on Thrones
and declared themselves and their children including
Caesarean, new gods and goddesses and divided the empire
amongst one another. Cleopatra was also the given the
title Queen of Kings or Mother of Kings, and their children the
titles King of Kings. They're the new gods.
Yeah. What?
And so if people didn't like the crowning of Caesar, they really
didn't like them calling themselves gods and gosses and
kings and Queens, you know? Yeah.
So they did not like that. Stuff like this doesn't end well
for. Folks.
Nope, and historians also believe that if they weren't
married already, Mark and Cleopatra may have wed at this
ceremony or had like another wedding ceremony during this
party. Essentially Stacy Schiff, one of
the historians I talked about wrote As of the winter 35 BC it
was impossible to to deny a full blooded romance, if by romance
we mean a congenial, intimate past, a shared family, shared
bed, and a shared vision of the future.
December 28th, 34 BC, An inscription was made on a statue
of Mark and Alexandra that said intimidable lover, lover this
time not liver. And the definition of is so good
it's impossible to replicate or copy.
That's what it means. So he's like the very first
significant lover. Oh wow, you're right.
Do you think that she loved him more than Julius Caesar?
100%. I think she.
I think she liked Caesar and maybe was in love with him, but
she and Mark got to spend way more time together.
Yeah. Yeah.
And it seems like Mark is like it, more willing to be with her.
Yeah. Agreed.
Yeah, and intimidable lover it seemed he was.
Mark gifted Cleopatra all the books and scrolls in the library
of Purgemum so that she could replace those lost in the
burning of Alexandria 15 ish years prior.
He also sent her love notes and vice versa.
Hers were known to have been inscribed on Onyx and crystal
tablets. Wow, fancy.
Yeah, so he would be like in a meeting and then a messenger
would come with a crystal tablet with a love note on it, and
apparently he would read it to everybody else.
Oh wow, do we know what those said or no?
No, unfortunately not done. I know and.
That's so cool if it still existed.
I know, unfortunately, like nothing that Cleopatra wrote
still exists. Wow, that's a shame.
But anyway, Mark spent most of 34 to 32 BC in Alexandria with
Cleopatra and the kids he seemed to have most.
He seemed to have lost most of his political ambition during
this time, preferring to be a husband and a father above all
else, and even wrote to Augustus that he would forfeit his
position and powers so long as Augustus established a Republic
in Rome. But Augustus declined, and
instead delivered a speech against Mark and Cleopatra
before the Senate, and Mark then had no other choice but to
officially renounce Augustus. And then he then now officially
divorced Octavia and claimed Cesarean as the rightful heir to
Caesar, and the latter of which being a sentiment he repeated in
his will, which was then subsequently stolen by Augustus.
I don't know how Augustus stole his will, but he did.
And also in Mark's will was the stipulation that he should be
buried alongside Cleopatra in Egypt instead of Rome, and that
Alexandra would be made the new capital of the Roman Republic.
OK. And Mark's will was the smoking
gun Augustus needed to declare war on Cleopatra.
And he did. In 31 BC, it was announced that
Rome and Egypt were officially at war.
Oh this is a stupid question, but how are Augustus and
Cleopatra connected to? They were connected through
Caesar. What's their?
Relationship Augustus is Caesar's grandnephew who adopted
and made us his heir. And Cleopatra was with Caesar
obviously and had a child by Caesar and she wanted her son to
be Caesar's heir. But August, Arian, yes it's
Arian. And Augustus was like no, I'm
the heir. So Cleopatra and Augustus have
been fighting basically since ever since.
OK. Because of that.
But he's not really like her former stepson.
Like it was not. No, they didn't know any other.
OK, Yeah, No, they didn't know each other until the Caesar's
will was read. And then I was like.
Oh, so that's so annoying. Like, who are you?
Yeah. Exactly.
That's why Mark's like, who's this boy who's just going to
take over Rome? Sorry Caesar, but why did you do
this? Yeah, he complicated stuff.
All right, let's let's take a break and we'll be back in a
minute. Insert add I'll be right back.
We're. Back So Mark and Cleopatra went
to Greece to set up their headquarters and Mark tried to
send Cleopatra away saying that she should wait out the war
safely in Egypt, but Cleopatra refused and remains by his side.
And I'm not going to go into too many details, but Cleopatra and
Mark began to lose many battles against Augustus, as well as
allies and supporters. And eventually Augustus occupied
Greece and the couple were forced to flee back to Egypt.
And Cleopatra seemed to think at this time that the war was not
going to go in their way. So she sent a letter to Augustus
requesting that at the war's end, her children would inherit
Egypt, and that Mark would be allowed to live in exile with
her and the children. Augustus essentially denied
Cleopatra's request, sending a messenger to tell her that the
only way he'd accept the deal was if she killed Mark and
Cleopatra, and Mark then sent the messenger's head back to
Augustus saying no deal. OK, good.
Oh my gosh. Would you, whoever your
significant other friend? Just kidding.
Yeah, that could be in the poll question, would you?
Kill your significant other. To save yourself and your
children. For professional gain.
Yeah, it depends. Yeah, 4% said yeah, why not?
10% maybe? It depends.
Oh my God. Well, even though they said no
deal, Mark did reach out to Augusta saying that he would
kill himself. Mark, Mark would kill himself so
long as Augustus promised Cleopatra would be spared.
But Augustus never responded. Trust someone's word after
you're dead. I know.
I know just like Survivor. What?
The heck it is. If you can.
Yeah, this is just like
Survivor. I can.
Anyway, desperate and with Augustus's fleet advancing
towards Egypt, Cleopatra sent her son Cesarean to India,
thinking that it would be better if he were far away.
She knew that she would most likely not be allowed to be the
Egyptian queen anymore once Augustus game, you know, And she
wanted him alive to succeed her. And also she believed that
Augustus were to capture Cesarean.
He would no doubt kill him. Yeah.
And on August 1st, 30 BC, Augustus invaded Egypt, and
Mark's Navy and Calvary quickly surrendered.
They were just completely outmatched by Augustus's forces.
And upon his victory, Cleopatra fled to her tomb for safety.
And for some reason, Mark thought she killed herself.
Some historians believe she sent him a letter saying that she
did, although I don't know how that works.
Him receiving a letter from her saying that she killed herself,
I don't know. But either way, thinking she was
dead and with no other means of escaping, Augustus, Mark stabbed
himself in the stomach. Wait, this is like Romeo and
Juliet? I know, just spoiler.
Anyway, thankfully he was found by his friends before his wound
would prove fatal and he was brought to where Cleopatra was
hiding in her tomb. However, he's succumbed shortly
after to his injuries and died in her arm.
No, this is. Tragic.
Oh my. God, I know.
Well, I think he really loved her though.
That's like. I think so.
Very romantic. 100%. So he wasn't going to brothels
and everything like he seems like he was like no dedicated.
To her, at this point in time, he was very loyal to her.
And. Her only he.
Basically killed himself for her.
Oh, very. You know who It also reminds me
of? Edward.
Reminds me of Edward. Jerry, Edward.
I wonder if Stephanie Meyer thought of that at all.
Maybe. I think maybe she was inspired
by Romeo and Juliet, which is inspired by this.
Oh true. Yeah, because there is like the
Italy part aspect of it as well. Yeah, Oh.
Yeah, yeah, they talk about Romeo and Juliet in the moon.
Duh. Well anyway Cleopatra apparently
grabbed Marks knife and tried to follow him and take her own life
but was captured by Augustus before she could and Cleopatra's
children non cluing caesarean were also captured alongside
her. No.
Yeah, and Augustus plan to keep Cleopatra alive, wishing to show
her off as a prisoner of war to the Roman public.
However, Cleopatra was against the idea, obviously.
Supposedly she begged Augustus and said grudge me not burial
with him in order that as it is because of him I die so I may
dwell with him ever in Hades. It's basically like, let me die.
I want to be with Mark, let me die.
And Augusta said no, and then was forced to thwart every
attempt Cleopatra made to kill herself afterward.
Apparently she tried multiple multiple times.
Gosh. He's so he had to thwart every
attempt, but unfortunately not the last.
On August 10th, 30 BC, Cleopatra escaped back to her tomb where
Mark was buried and poisoned herself.
Wow. Wow.
So very like Romeo and Juliet, except in Romeo and Jr.
Poisoned himself and she Juliet stabs herself.
Wow, it's tragic. What the heck?
I know it's very. Dumb.
They have their kids together. Awful for the kid.
Now you see why I said doomed. Yeah.
And that's basically the end of Mark and Cleopatra.
Thankfully, in accordance with Mark's will, Augustus did allow
for Mark and Cleopatra to be buried side by side in her tomb
in Alexandria. We know it's in Alexandra, but
we don't know where exactly. Even still to the state, we
don't know where their tomb is. Wow, no way.
Yeah, no one knows. People are still looking for it,
but we don't know where it is. How?
Could you? If you found it?
How could they figure it out that it's theirs?
Is that stupid question? Probably because of, yeah.
I mean, so when I was in Egypt, all the tombs had on the walls
basically the life story of the person that was buried there.
And since this tomb was made for Cleopatra, like, so when she
would inevitably go, she would go to that tomb.
So she probably would have had her life inscribed in on the
walls in the tomb. So they would probably know that
that was hers. But we don't know where it is.
That's so crazy that it exists somewhere and they can't find
it. Yeah, gosh, it could be like
underneath a building or something crazy.
Don't they have some statues like I in the British Museum or
places where they think that it is Cleopatra, but they're not
sure? I mean, not that it's like her
tomb, but. I was going to get into this in
a little bit, but because Augustus took over Egypt, he
annexed it. He had every statue of Cleopatra
and Mark both in Rome and in Egypt destroyed.
No. No, Yeah.
So that's why we really don't have too many, too much evidence
of what she looked like, because so much of it was destroyed.
Yeah, I. Hate that?
And all the treasure that was in Cleopatra's tomb with Mark was
also stolen by Augustus. Actually, all that goals and all
those gems actually went on to fund Rome for long afterwards.
Wow. Well, I guess that's nice.
It's not like doing much and it ended up.
Yeah, I. Ended up underneath Trinity
Church in New York City as part of the national graduate.
Maybe that's where Anthony and Cleopatra are.
I did watch a show once. I don't know how real it was.
It was kind of like a national treasure copycat essentially.
I think it only had like one or two.
Was it on like The History Channel?
Yeah, I think it was. But it had a case where they
think like the Nazis may be found Anthony and Cleopatra's
tomb, and they stole their sarcophaguses and bodies and
stuff, and now no one knows where it is now because of that,
I don't know. But what kind of the part of
Indiana Jones? A little bit, I think so.
Crazy. Yeah, because then they think
like, oh, the Nazis then hit it and then nobody knows where the
Nazis hit it, so. How would the Nazis have known
where it was? I don't know.
I guess because they were also in Egypt, so they were doing
shit there. I don't know.
Man, it would be cool to see something from, you know,
Cleopatra's time and. Mark Antony.
Wow. Well, there's probably a lot at
the Met and the British Museum. Probably.
Excuse me? A new appreciation for it, Kate.
Thank you. Well, there's more A little bit.
After his mother's death, Cesarean was lured back to
Alexandria under the pretense that he would be allowed to rule
Egypt freely under Augustus's command.
But when he was returned, he was captured and shortly after
executed, only 19 days after his mother.
Oh. Gosh, he should have just stayed
there. I know.
He really had the option. But yeah, I would not trust
Augustus at all. It is kind of like Survivor.
Yeah. Yeah, just like Survivor.
How can you trust him? He broke into lions already.
He's clearly not loyal well. As for Cesarean's siblings, they
were rounded up and sent to Italy, where they were then
paraded around the streets of Rome again as prisoners of war.
And afterward, Mark's son with Fulvia was executed.
I don't know why just him, but the rest were given to Octavia
to raise alongside their half siblings.
Oh wow, so that's kind of nice that Octavia raised Mark's kids
with Cleopatra. So Mark's lineage and
Cleopatra's lineage might still go on, but it would be through
like Roman society, so they might not even be aware of their
ties to Cleopatra. True.
Interesting. And then because Mark was dead,
Augustus became the sole power in Rome and in 27 BC he crowned
himself the first emperor of Rome.
Previously hit it had been a Republic like he said, and he
officially annexed Egypt into the Roman Empire, which ended
the Ptolemaic dynasty. So that dynasty also ended with
Cleopatra. Augustus.
Oh my gosh, I know. So that's how we're hungry.
Yeah. Roman Republic.
It's an empire now. It's the Roman Empire and
there's an emperor. And yeah, that's all because of
Mark and Cleopatra, essentially. And I guess Caesar, wow, he did
it. And yeah, so even though they
died and they were expunged from Egypt and Rome, like their
statues and their history, Cleopatra and Mark's legacy
continues to live on. Still to the stay.
They're remembered both accurately and not William
Shakespeare wrote a play about them titled Anthony and
Cleopatra, and we're doing a podcast about them in 2025 S
you. Have you read the play I I feel
like we've discussed? This.
No, I did not. I've never read it.
I probably should. It's actually funny because he
did the play after he wrote Romeo and Juliet, but I do think
he was very inspired by it even still when he wrote Romeo and
Juliet. Yeah, is and the movie that
Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton are in, that is the play.
I don't think so. I don't think they do the whole
Shakespeare thing. Oh, OK.
But yeah, that's. I wanna watch it.
Looking it up right now, it's adapted from a book.
But yeah, no, it's, I don't think it's based on Shakespeare.
Oh, OK. Very riveting.
Kate, thank you so much for all the.
Research you put into. This.
I wonder so much went into. It I wonder if anyone's learning
about this in school that's listening and if this was
helpful at all for your next test.
I hope so, yeah. It's a use this as a source I
suppose. Yeah.
Thanks, Kate. Yeah, I'm so impressed.
I know, I'm so glad I did it finally and it's done.
It's impressive, I. Know.
Well, you're hosting again next week.
Yes. What will that be about?
Do you want to tease it? Yes.
So the couple I'm covering next week is a very scandalous affair
that occurred in the 90s, nineteen 90s.
Damn. It's pretty different.
Yeah, very different. Cool, you can't wait for that.
That'll be that'll be on Patreon.
Yep, we'll see you guys there. And if you don't already, be
sure to follow us on Instagram at Significant Lovers.
We encourage our listeners to make guesses each week about who
the episode is about. So if you think you know who I'm
covering next week, make sure to let us know on Instagram.
I would not be able to get that guess that no my neither no.
Good, well anyway I hope you guys enjoyed the episode and we
will get back together next week.
Is your heart peeled with pain? Shall I come back again?
Tell me dear.