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IN2018A sleepover with 10 soccer
moms would end in one of the 

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most unsettling mysteries in 
recent years. 

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The night started like any 
other, with wine, pizza, late 

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night gossip. 
At one point, they all even snap

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a photo together, huddled up in 
their pajamas that all smiles. 

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It looks like the perfect girls 
night, but photos don't always 

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tell the whole story. 
By sunrise, one of these women 

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would be found dead in the 
backyard, and as the morning 

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unfolded, the other guests, some
of whom were never even supposed

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to be there that night, 
scrambled to get their story 

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straight. 
But those stories would quickly 

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start to unravel because from 
the beginning, none of them 

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quite lined up. 
Hello, and welcome to Outlaw 

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Podcast. 
I'm Eleanor Neil, And in today's

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episode, we're in Georgia in 
2018, where Tamela Horsford's 

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friends and family were 
desperately trying to get 

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answers from local police. 
It had been weeks since Tamela 

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was found dead in another 
woman's backyard. 

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To the people who loved her, 
this whole situation was clearly

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suspicious, but police didn't 
seem to see it that way. 

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Instead, they quickly dismissed 
the whole thing as a tragic 

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accident. 
But the closer you look. 

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This case, the harder that 
explanation becomes to accept 

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the injuries just don't seem 
accidental. 

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The timeline doesn't really make
sense. 

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Some things seem conveniently 
forgotten, while other things 

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almost feel staged. 
And taking into account the dark

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past of the very town she died 
in, a lot of people simply 

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weren't buying the fact that 
this was an accidental death. 

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And honestly, me too. 
The whole team here at Outlaw 

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have been discussing this case 
for years, actually, literally 

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since it first happened. 
It's one of those cases where 

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every time you revisit it, every
time you dig back into the 

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reports, it just raises more and
more questions. 

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And trust me, we've been 
digging. 

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There is so much for us to 
unpack with this case today, and

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I know that this one has been 
very widely covered in online 

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true crime circles, but it's a 
case that I'm simply not willing

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to let go of. 
Tamela deserves justice. 

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Her family deserve real answers,
and right now what they have is 

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just not good enough and we're 
going to keep making noise until

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we get somewhere with this case.
So before we get into this case,

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I just want to give my usual 
disclaimer that I mean 

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absolutely no harm or disrespect
to anyone that we talk about in 

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today's case. 
Our episodes are are always made

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with the utmost care to honour 
those who lost their lives and 

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to respect the profound grief 
that their loved ones endure. 

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And given the nature of today's 
episode, we're going to be 

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covering some very sensitive 
topics including racism, 

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lynching, taking one's own life,
self harm, police harassment, 

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violence and murder. 
This episode is created with the

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hope to raise awareness, to 
inspire change and to further 

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Victim Support. 
Viewer discretion is advised. 

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And one last thing, Outlaw 
Podcast is now on Instagram and 

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on TikTok. 
You can find us at Outlaw 

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Podcast on both platforms where 
we'll be posting updates and 

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short form true crime content. 
Of course, you can still find me

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on my personal social accounts 
at Eleanor Neil. 

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I love interacting with you guys
over there. 

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But now the pod has a whole unit
verse of its own, and we'd love 

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to see you guys on the Outlaw 
podcast pages. 

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Now, with all of that out of the
way, it's time to embark on what

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will likely be a very 
frustrating and very emotional 

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episode. 
I'd like to start this case from

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the very, very beginning because
it's crucial that the woman at 

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the center of this story, Tamela
Horsford, is remembered first 

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and foremost as a person and not
just a victim in an unrelenting 

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mystery. 
Tamela Horsford, who also went 

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by Tam or Tammy, was born in the
Caribbean in in 1978. 

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And truly guys from everything 
the people that knew and loved 

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her have said she sounds like 
such an Angel of a person. 

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Tamela was always known for her 
big heart and how much she put 

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others before herself, 
especially her family and later 

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on her own children. 
She had this magnetic charisma 

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about her. 
Her mother said that Tamela just

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drew people in. 
Her house was where people would

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gather they would want to be 
around Tamela's energy and her 

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warmth. 
She was funny, witty, outgoing. 

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She's been described as larger 
than life and the life of the 

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party. 
And God, I love it when women 

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are described like that. 
Women that don't shrink 

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themselves for others. 
And it was. 

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Exactly this, along with her 
beautiful looks that drew in the

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man that would soon become her 
husband. 

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Tamela was 22 years old and now 
living in Florida where she met 

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a man named Leander, Lee for 
short, and the two of them fell 

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head over heels for one another.
Lee already had a young daughter

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from a previous relationship and
Tamela was the mum that stepped 

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up for real. 
She took on that little girl and

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loved her as if she was her own.
They had a true mother daughter 

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relationship. 
Pamela and Lee got married a few

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years later and they decided to 
move with their daughter to 

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Georgia. 
A place called. 

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Coming in Forsyth County now for
context, this is the Deep South 

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and a very, very white area. 
Pamela and her family were one 

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of the very few black families 
around, and sadly that becomes a

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very integral part of this case 
later on. 

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But they were happy living 
there. 

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Pamela and Lee were loved up. 
Their daughter was happy and 

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soon their family began to 
expand. 

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Expand more like explode. 
The two of them had five more 

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children together, all boys as 
well mind you. 

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So Pamela and her stepdaughter 
were pretty much outnumbered. 

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But it was such a happy, loving 
and energetic household. 

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Pamela adored being a mother and
she was damn good at it as well.

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She's been called Super Mom by 
those around her because she was

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just always there, no matter 
what. 

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Whether it was school meets or 
football games, helping with the

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homework, being a shoulder to 
cry on, Super Mum was on it 

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always. 
She was an especially proud 

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soccer mum. 
I think most, if not all of her 

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boys played football, so she'd 
be there at every single game 

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with her bullhorn, chanting, 
cheering them on. 

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She was so, so proud of every 
single one of her six kids. 

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As the years passed, Tamela 
watched her children grow into 

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amazing human beings just like 
herself. 

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In fact, by 2018, her 
stepdaughter was all grown up 

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and expecting a baby of her own.
Tamela was about to become a 

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grandma and she was over the 
moon, another baby for her to 

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dot on and adore the way that 
she had her own. 

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But then everything changed. 
In October 2018, Tamela received

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an invite to a birthday party. 
It was for a woman that she'd 

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only recently become friendly 
with, another soccer mom. 

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Their sons were friends, and so 
all the moms started to hang out

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as well. 
The birthday mom was named John 

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Mayers, and like I say, Tamela 
didn't know her hugely well 

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because they only really hung 
out on Saturday mornings at 

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football games. 
In fact, they'd only seen each 

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other outside of football games 
once. 

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Before and it was about a week. 
Week before this birthday party 

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when Tamela took her sons to a 
Halloween party at John's house.

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But Tamela was such a social 
person, like I said, and she was

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always up for making new 
friends. 

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It was a no brainer that she was
going to attend this birthday 

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party. 
Making new connections came so 

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easy to Tamela, but this was a 
connection that would prove 

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fatal for her. 
The party would take place on 

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November 3rd 2018 and it was 
actually going to be a big adult

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girly sleepover, which I do love
the concept of to be honest. 

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It was mainly so that all of the
mums could come over and get a 

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little wine drunk and not have 
to worry about how they were 

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going to get home or at what 
time they were going to get 

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home. 
If everyone just crashed there 

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at Jean's then they could get a 
bit wild with it. 

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For her 45th birthday. 
And honestly, that's exactly 

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what they all needed, a night 
off to chill and let loose with 

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the girls. 
Girls, it would be a. 

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Classic girly gossip night. 
No boys allowed. 

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Specifically that meant no sons,
no husbands, no boyfriends or 

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partners. 
Just the girls, boxes of pizza 

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and a few bottles of wine. 
Not to mention there was a big 

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football game on and these women
being all boy moms, most of them

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are very into the football. 
Tamela herself was a huge Dallas

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Cowboys fan. 
So when all the women arrived 

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that night, it seemed that a few
of them were actually in the 

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same boat as Tamela, some of 
them being introduced to each 

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other for the very first time. 
But it was clear that there were

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two main ringleaders of this 
soccer mum group, Jean, whose 

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birthday it was, and a woman 
named Stacey Smith who had 

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actually organized the party and
sent out the invites. 

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As far as we can deduce from 
reports, these two women were 

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besties. 
Stacey and Jean were a duo, 

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almost giving like queen bees of
the group. 

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I'm sure if you've ever been a 
part of a big girl group, 

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especially back in school years,
you know exactly what kind of 

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vibe that is. 
But I think one of the most 

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important things about this 
group that I need to mention 

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right now is that Tamela 
Horsford was the only black 

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woman in attendance. 
It was her and 9 white women, 

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but she of course believed that 
she was fully safe and welcome 

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there because, well, why else 
would they invite her? 

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I say that but Tamela had voiced
some concerns to her husband 

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before she went that night. 
Nothing too bad but she just 

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like Lucky didn't want to go. 
She wasn't feeling it she but 

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she also didn't want to drop out
and disappoint anyone. 

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So she ultimately decided that 
she was just going to push 

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through and go anywhere. 
And by the time. 

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She arrived. 
It seems that that, like CBA 

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feeling had subsided. 
She was in good spirits, pajamas

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on, wine in hand. 
She'd even brought a bottle of 

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tequila as a birthday gift for 
Jean. 

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Although very quickly, the 
slumber party wasn't exactly 

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going to plan. 
It originally started, like I 

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said, as a no boys allowed kind 
of thing. 

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But John Myers and Stacy Smith, 
the Queen Bees, had brought 

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their partners. 
Jean's boyfriend, Jose Barrera, 

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and Stacy's husband, Tom Smith, 
would be joining this girly 

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slumber party. 
Not only that, but Jean reacted 

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really weirdly when Tamela 
presented her with the birthday 

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gift. 
A bottle of tequila, because 

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apparently Jean doesn't like 
tequila. 

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I mean, we've all been in that 
awkward situation before where 

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someone buys you a gift and you 
don't really like it. 

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You know, you're probably not 
going to use it, but I thought 

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it was just like an unspoken 
rule that you just politely 

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accept the gift with thanks. 
And I don't know. 

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Pass it off to someone else 
later on. 

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But no, Jean carried on and on 
and on about. 

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How disgusting tequila is and 
how she didn't want it. 

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It was going to make her throw 
up in her mouth. 

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This was probably making Tamela 
feel so uncomfortable. 

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Mind you she barely knew this 
woman and she was just trying to

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do something nice. 
Quite early on at the party, 

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Tamela goes outside to smoke a 
cigarette and while she's out 

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there all the other women inside
start banding together and 

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taking the piss out of this 
tequila gift, talking about how 

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disgusting it is. 
They're all passing it around 

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and smelling it and and fake 
gagging and even though it 

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doesn't seem like that of a 
deal, it was how the women 

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likely made Tamela feel. 
That's the real issue here. 

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Did this like jokey dogpile 
moment make her feel left out 

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and like an outsider? 
When Tam came back in from her 

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cigarette, the night seemed to 
go back to a good vibe. 

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They all drank, they ate snacks,
they watched the game. 

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And from all the pictures of 
that night, Tamela looked really

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happy. 
She seemed loved and appreciated

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by the other women, and it 
certainly looks like she felt 

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that way about them as well. 
There she is in her white onesie

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paw print pattern all over it. 
She's cuddling the other women, 

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she's smiling. 
She looks like her usual life of

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the party self. 
Throughout the night, when Tom 

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would go outside for a 
cigarette, the other women would

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come and join her and keep her 
company, even though I don't 

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think anyone else in the whole 
group actually smoked. 

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They'd just come out for fresh 
air and to keep the 

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00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,440
conversation. 
Going In fact, John's Aunt 

227
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,720
Madeline was living in her 
basement at the time, which was 

228
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,960
like in line with where Pamela 
would go outside for a smoke. 

229
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:29,320
So Aunt Madeline spent quite a 
bit of time with her that night,

230
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,120
just like chilling outside on 
the patio. 

231
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,000
But then one time when Tam goes 
out for a cig, she pulls out a 

232
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:39,040
bit of weed and rolls a joint. 
And as she lights that up, it 

233
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:40,840
seems that no one really has a 
problem with it. 

234
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:44,440
In fact, a couple of the other 
women had a puff or two until 

235
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:48,760
Jean comes outside. 
She freaks out on Tamela, saying

236
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:52,640
that her boyfriend Jose is a 
pretrial probation officer, a 

237
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,280
cop, and he could get in so much
trouble if anyone found out that

238
00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:00,120
he was at an event where 
controlled substances were being

239
00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,640
used. 
Tamela completely understood 

240
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:04,520
this. 
She was very apologetic. 

241
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,360
She put the joint out 
immediately. 

242
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:07,960
She wasn't trying to cause 
problems. 

243
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:09,880
She was just trying to let loose
a little bit. 

244
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,120
Her girls get together while she
didn't have the kids. 

245
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,640
You know, Jean actually tried to
joke it off with Tamela calling 

246
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,200
her the female Bob Marley, which
is insane. 

247
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,320
It's I actually have no words. 
It's just bad form. 

248
00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,320
Isn't it really the one black 
woman at the party? 

249
00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:32,600
Is the female Bob Marley to you 
Because she smoked one joint? 

250
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,840
OK? 
At roughly 10:30 AM, Tamela 

251
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,400
first timed her husband and her 
kids to say goodnight. 

252
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,880
She actually went around the 
whole party getting everyone to 

253
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,800
say hi to her kids. 
They truly were her whole entire

254
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,760
world. 
Around this time, 2 of the women

255
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,480
leave the party and go back 
home. 

256
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,440
These two never planned to stay 
for the whole thing anyway, so 

257
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,480
this brought the group down to 8
women. 

258
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,840
Well, 10 people in total with 
the two men that decided to 

259
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,800
crash the party. 
And now, at around midnight, 

260
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,320
this group of 10 are gathered 
around the table in the living 

261
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,120
room playing Cards Against 
Humanity. 

262
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,200
If you're unfamiliar with this 
game, it's dark humor central. 

263
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,080
It's edgy jokes about the 
darkest, most taboo topics. 

264
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,680
Not all of it is controversial, 
but my God some of it is 

265
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,280
problematic. 
Low key love it though, it is 

266
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,920
quite a modern classic. 
The group played this game for 

267
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,360
about an hour and at one point 
Tamela takes a call with her 

268
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,760
stepdaughter, the one who's 
pregnant with Tammy's first ever

269
00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,440
grandchild. 
So obviously she wants to answer

270
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:32,560
and make sure that everything 
is. 

271
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,320
Okay. 
But it seems that this second 

272
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,280
phone call started to agitate 
the other partygoers a bit. 

273
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,720
At one point, another guest took
out their phone and began 

274
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,720
recording. 
And in the background you can 

275
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,240
hear them saying. 
When's she going to take a turn?

276
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,600
Is she going to read the card 
she going to? 

277
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,480
Read it. 
Whatever, the game seemed to go 

278
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,920
down fine, and then at around 
1:00 AM, the group call it a 

279
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,040
night. 
They begin tidying up all the 

280
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,600
bottles of alcohol and the 
pizza. 

281
00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,720
They're deciding which bedroom 
each guest was going to sleep 

282
00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,680
in. 
Jean Jean, Jean. 

283
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,200
Sorry, it's spelt like Jean. 
So like my Yorkshire self has 

284
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,520
been calling her Jean in my head
the whole entire time. 

285
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,360
If I do that again. 
Please forgive me, it is 

286
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,560
accidental. 
Jean has a massive house, by the

287
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,560
way, plenty of bedrooms for 
these guests to stay in. 

288
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,320
But apparently around this time,
Tamela expresses that she 

289
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,160
actually wants to go home to her
family. 

290
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,280
She changed her mind about 
staying the night, but Jean, 

291
00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:38,960
Stacy and Tom weren't having it.
I mean, Tamela had driven 

292
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,680
herself there, but since then 
she'd had a craploader tequila 

293
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,760
because obviously all the other 
women hated it. 

294
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,360
They were gagging when they were
smelling it. 

295
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,000
And it got to a point where Jean
just told her, like you have 

296
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,760
that you finish it. 
So I don't think she. 

297
00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:53,360
Finished the book. 
Not all, but she had. 

298
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,600
She had a decent amount. 
So it really was out of the 

299
00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,560
question for Tamela to get 
behind the wheel and drive home.

300
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,200
And everyone knew that even she 
knew that. 

301
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,040
It's unclear why Tamela suddenly
wanted to go home. 

302
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,480
Maybe the vibes were off. 
Maybe something had happened or 

303
00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,360
something had been said that 
we're not Privy to because. 

304
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,160
It is quite drastic for her to 
want to drunk drive home at 1:00

305
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,480
AM, no? 
And you know given the way that 

306
00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:20,680
this case. 
Ends. 

307
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,360
It really wouldn't shock me if 
the vibes had already begun to 

308
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,680
shift and Tamela got a bad 
feeling about staying over. 

309
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,320
In the end, Tamela does agree to
stay over at Jean's, but she 

310
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,520
doesn't want to go to. 
Sleep. 

311
00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,680
Yet she was still on the party 
vibe. 

312
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,560
She didn't want to go to bed. 
She wasn't tired. 

313
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,640
Apparently she'd been mixing her
tequila with Mountain Dew that 

314
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:42,880
night, so she was a caffeinated 
queen. 

315
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,480
And trust me, I'm an espresso 
martini girl myself. 

316
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,320
I know that feeling when you've 
had a couple of drinks and 

317
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,200
everyone else is getting like 
sleepy drunk, but you feel like 

318
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,200
you could hang out for hours and
hours longer. 

319
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,200
Plus, they were all mums and 
they didn't get to do this kind 

320
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,120
of thing often. 
She wanted them all to just 

321
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,360
enjoy this very fleeting moment 
of freedom for as long as they 

322
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,079
could. 
Stacey said that Tamela was 

323
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,520
upset apparently because she 
didn't have a sleeping body. 

324
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,640
I think most of the other women 
were sharing bedrooms and she 

325
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,680
was the only one that would have
a room to herself. 

326
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,560
And while I know a lot of people
would be happy with that 

327
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,400
outcome, that they don't have to
share a bed with someone else, 

328
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,560
but a girly sleepover, that's 
kind of one of the best parts of

329
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,599
it all. 
To go to bed and to whisper and 

330
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,480
gossip and debrief with the 
lights off before you close your

331
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,400
eyes. 
It's also just a bit unsettling 

332
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,520
how many instances there are of 
Tam being left out and 

333
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,840
ostracized that night, from the 
tequila moment to them 

334
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,200
complaining that she wasn't 
taking her turn in the game 

335
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,040
quick enough and now being the 
only one who's sleeping alone. 

336
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,560
I appreciate that some people 
will think it's silly to be 

337
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,400
upset over little things like 
these. 

338
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,840
But for a black woman in a fully
white friend group, these little

339
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,880
things will have surely felt. 
Loaded right? 

340
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:02,120
For someone who has experienced 
so much discrimination in her 

341
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,480
life, this behaviour from her 
friends might have picked at 

342
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,440
some old wounds. 
Even if nothing was explicitly 

343
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,400
racist. 
Being left out in a way and not 

344
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,080
included with all the white 
women, I'm sure it will have had

345
00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,880
Tamela feeling a kind of way. 
But. 

346
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,520
Like I said. 
No one was interested in staying

347
00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,720
up with Tamela and people 
started dropping off 1 by 1 and 

348
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,000
heading to their bedrooms and 
eventually it was just Tam and a

349
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,640
lady named. 
Bridget in the kitchen, eating 

350
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,440
the food, chatting. 
Bridget was on the phone to her 

351
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,720
partner at the time, trying to 
get him to come and pick her up 

352
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,480
because she'd actually had a bit
of a tiff with one of the other 

353
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,120
women there. 
A lady named Jennifer had gotten

354
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:44,280
so insanely drunk that she had 
to be put to bed quite early, 

355
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,160
and I think she just kind of 
pissed a people pissed a few 

356
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,560
people off that night with her 
behavior. 

357
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,760
It was about 1:45 AM when 
Bridget's husband pulled up 

358
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,080
outside. 
Bridget says that Tamela walked 

359
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,880
her to the door, gave her a hug,
said goodbye, and she then 

360
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,000
mentioned to her that she was 
just going to stop outside the 

361
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,640
back and have one last cigarette
before bed. 

362
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:08,320
And from what everyone at the 
party says, that is the last 

363
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,280
time anyone saw Tamela Horsford 
that night. 

364
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,480
So up until this point, most of 
what we know about the night is 

365
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,840
based on what attendees told the
police. 

366
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,280
But here's where we get some 
actual time stamps. 

367
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,600
John's house had a security 
system that tracked every time 

368
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,640
the. 
Front door or the back door were

369
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,320
opened or closed and yes it. 
Caught Bridget leaving the house

370
00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:33,440
at 1:47 AM, it caught Tamela 
going out of the back door for a

371
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,600
smoke at 1:50 AM, and then the 
next time the door to the 

372
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:42,600
outside opens it's at 4:10 AM. 
Quite random. 

373
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,960
One of the women named Marcie 
explained that this was her 

374
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,480
leaving super, super early for 
work. 

375
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,080
She had just started a new job 
and she wanted to make a good 

376
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,920
impression. 
She didn't want to turn up 

377
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:56,720
hungover and gross so she was 
going to head home really early 

378
00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,600
to shower, to eat, to get the 
kids sorted and then get to her 

379
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200
shift. 
Now, I noticed when we were like

380
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,920
researching and digging into 
this case that some people found

381
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,280
it suspicious that Marty left at
4:00 AM, especially considering 

382
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,240
that her shift didn't actually 
start until 10:30 AM. 

383
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,240
But I mean, given the context of
everything, I don't think it's 

384
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,360
all that wild. 
It was like her second ever 

385
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,520
shift on the job. 
She wanted to make a good 

386
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,920
impression and also she had 
kids. 

387
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,680
That needed taking care of. 
We also don't know how far 

388
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,000
Marcie actually lived from Jean 
and how long that commute was 

389
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,000
going to be from there to her 
own house and then from her own 

390
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,280
house to her job. 
I don't know. 

391
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,200
I've just seen a lot of people 
online, and I'm probably going 

392
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,800
to say this a few times 
throughout this case, but I've 

393
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,320
seen a lot of people online 
being suspicious about this one 

394
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,120
particular thing. 
But I'm not sure that we have to

395
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,440
be that suspicious about it. 
I could be wrong. 

396
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,200
Let me know what you think in 
the comments. 

397
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:53,720
Around 8:00 AM is when the rest 
of the party gradually start 

398
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,360
leaving out of the front door. 
Everything's normal until John's

399
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,280
Aunt Madeline wakes up. 
Remember she was living in the 

400
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,720
basement at the time, which was 
in line with the backyard. 

401
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,760
And when she looks out of the 
window she sees a body laying 

402
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,280
face down on the ground, not 
moving, still in her paw print 

403
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,240
onesie pyjamas. 
And she knows straight away that

404
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,240
that is Tamela Horsford. 
The first thing Aunt Madeline 

405
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,200
says she did when she saw this 
was drop to her knees and pray. 

406
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,920
And then she rushed upstairs to 
Jean and Jose's room to tell 

407
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,440
them that Tamela was out there. 
But there was a. 

408
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,840
Problem. 
Madeline couldn't remember 

409
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,440
Tamela's name, I guess she had 
just met her the night before. 

410
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,040
But I did mention that they 
spent a decent amount of time 

411
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,360
together, work like at working, 
smoking together outside. 

412
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,520
But forgetting her name isn't 
the crazy part. 

413
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,080
Some people are just bad with 
names. 

414
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,800
The crazy part is when she goes 
upstairs to tell people, she 

415
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,600
says to John that she saw her 
friend from the islands laying 

416
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,360
on the ground in the back garden
and she's not moving. 

417
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,080
So Tamela doesn't have a name or
much of an identity to Miss 

418
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,480
Madeline. 
It seems that she was just the 

419
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,760
Caribbean woman at the party. 
Not even like the woman in the 

420
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,160
paw print onesie or the tequila 
girl or something. 

421
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,600
That's like actually relevant to
the night that they spent 

422
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,920
together. 
Even your smoker friend. 

423
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,840
I just think it says something, 
at least to me. 

424
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,120
It says something, in fact. 
Aunt Madeline was weird, full 

425
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:27,120
stop. 
That morning. 

426
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:30,080
I already said her first 
reaction upon seeing Tamela face

427
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,560
down and not moving in the yard 
was to pray rather than to 

428
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,840
scream or get help or or panic 
in any kind of way. 

429
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,640
I think a lot of us would have 
an involuntary reaction to 

430
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,560
seeing that. 
You'd be horrified and scared 

431
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,920
and adrenaline would surge 
through your body. 

432
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,240
You'd be primed for action, and 
maybe praying was Madeline's 

433
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,080
involuntary reaction that her 
body just did. 

434
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,880
But it does get weirder. 
She actually went to try and get

435
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,320
help twice, but the first time 
she knocked on John and Jose's 

436
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,440
bedroom door, they didn't 
answer. 

437
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,760
Madeline said that she heard 
running water coming from 

438
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,880
inside, so she assumed that they
were just in the shower, so she 

439
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,240
just left it for a minute. 
She went back downstairs to look

440
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,360
at Tom out of the window again 
and just kind of did nothing for

441
00:23:19,360 --> 00:23:21,320
a moment. 
So she eventually goes back up 

442
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,480
and knocks again. 
And that's when they answered. 

443
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,920
And actually the first thing 
that Aunt Madeline says to Jean 

444
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:32,560
was I need to talk to Jose. 
What I again interesting. 

445
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:34,720
What does Jose have to do with 
anything? 

446
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,320
Why is he the first one that 
needs to know that Tamela is out

447
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,320
in the backyard unresponsive 
when she was John's friend? 

448
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,520
Well, I'm not sure you can 
actually call them friends, but 

449
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,200
you know what I mean. 
Surely it'd be Jean that you 

450
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,440
would want to talk to about her 
party guest being face down in 

451
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,520
the backyard. 
The Jose of it all is weird to 

452
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,520
me and it gets weirder. 
People have pointed out that 

453
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,680
this series of events from Aunt 
Madeleine was just odd for the 

454
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,840
person who found the body to 
react like this. 

455
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,880
It was a strange reaction. 
You know to to fall to your 

456
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,800
knees and prayer before even 
checking if she was OK or or 

457
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,720
trying to get help. 
I don't know. 

458
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,560
So all three of them go 
downstairs and they go out into 

459
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,720
the yard, Jean, Jose and Aunt 
Madeleine, and that is where 

460
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,480
they properly see Tamila now for
the first time. 

461
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,120
Jean describes the scene as if 
Tam was apparently laid very 

462
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,520
neatly face down, like actually 
face down into the ground. 

463
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,400
Her arms were by her sides, 
straight by her sides, her palms

464
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,680
up. 
Her legs were together. 

465
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,280
Her toes were pointed towards 
the house like. 

466
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:47,240
A perfect planking position. 
Finally, a good 15 to 30 minutes

467
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,760
after Madeline apparently first 
saw Tamela's body, the police 

468
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,280
were called just before 9:00 AM.
4-5 standing number one. 

469
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,840
Yes. 
I need an ambulance and a place 

470
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,200
in my home. 
What is your name? 

471
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,920
My name is John Myers. 
Jeanne. 

472
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,400
OK, What's going on? 
We had people over last night 

473
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,080
who were drinking. 
Most of us went to bed. 

474
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,360
One of them stayed on the 
balcony. 

475
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,160
She was drinking and we just 
went out, sit outside and she's 

476
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,520
going face down in the backyard.
It looks like me. 

477
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,080
I'm guessing maybe she fell off 
the balcony. 

478
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,400
But she's stiff. 
OK. 

479
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,720
Is she breathing? 
Not if she's face down. 

480
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,360
How old is she? 
41 here. 

481
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,280
Hold on. 
Hey, this is Jose Pereira. 

482
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,560
Hey have y'all checked to see if
she's breathing? 

483
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,240
She's not moving one bit. 
She's not breathing. 

484
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,200
I just tried to assess her 
testimony. 

485
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,520
She's completely face down in 
the yard. 

486
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,040
She is stiff. 
Do you see? 

487
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,320
Blood or anything? 
Where's are you? 

488
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:41,920
There? 
I am. 

489
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,160
Do you see any blood or 
anything? 

490
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,120
To where? 
At? 

491
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:46,280
From where she fell. 
I don't know if I should move 

492
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,120
her over. 
I mean, she's completely fell 

493
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,040
down. 
OK. 

494
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,840
I mean, can you just check and 
see if she's breathing? 

495
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,800
If she's not breathing and you 
know she's gone, then just leave

496
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,840
her where she's at one minute. 
I'm completely not sure. 

497
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,880
OK. 
And that's the only blood that 

498
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:00,840
you would see? 
That's what I can see without 

499
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,080
moving her over do. 
You know, if she was suicidal at

500
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,680
all. 
I have no clue. 

501
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,080
I've met her one other time. 
You know, like my girlfriend 

502
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,800
said, people were over last 
night. 

503
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,520
My girlfriend's birthday party, 
instead of having everybody go 

504
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,480
out, she had everyone. 
So she was the last one I saw 

505
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,360
before everybody. 
I mean, everybody was typically 

506
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,520
put off the bed and she was the 
last one in the kitchen and she 

507
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,280
was just either waiting around 
to the ride or waiting till the 

508
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,720
morning. 
OK. 

509
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,120
How far is the where she would 
have fell from? 

510
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,600
How far is the deck from the 
ground? 

511
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:35,040
I would probably say 20 feet, 
OK, You know, 20 feet from where

512
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,360
your feet would be on the 
railing. 

513
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:41,040
The railing itself is maybe 3 
1/2 four feet, OK. 

514
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,360
And what is her name? 
Called Pam. 

515
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,800
I'm assuming that's short for 
Tammy or Tamara. 

516
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,040
Was she there with anyone else? 
Her name is Pam Horsford Hors. 

517
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,840
I don't believe anybody was my 
girlfriend has cameras here on 

518
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,320
the back deck that we can check 
OK, that I think would have 

519
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,520
caught the incident if she fell 
from here. 

520
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,440
It's it's hard to say she fell 
from the deck or if she was 

521
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,000
already downstairs. 
She was the only smoker here. 

522
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:11,240
And so you think she's popping 
out from smoking? 

523
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:13,240
Yes, she was she was the only 
smoker. 

524
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,440
I mean, I'm, I'm on the back 
deck right now and you know, 

525
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,920
cigarettes lighter that's had to
finger out here. 

526
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,280
Are all the people that were 
there last Saturday, are they 

527
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,440
still at your house? 
OK. 

528
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,120
There are four people that were 
here last time that are no 

529
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:28,720
longer there, OK. 
And they just left this morning 

530
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,680
or they leave last night. 
We can chat and she's got an 

531
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,920
alarm system that gives the 
lights when the doors are open 

532
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,120
on her phone. 
OK. 

533
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,560
I think the last time that I 
personally saw Pam was probably 

534
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,680
about 1:00 in the morning before
I gone upstairs to bed. 

535
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,080
OK. 
And at that point, she was the 

536
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,600
only one in the kitchen. 
Much to unpack from that call. 

537
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,840
The first thing that struck me 
was just how calm I all sound. 

538
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,720
I mean, I feel like I have more 
panic in my voice when I'm just 

539
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,560
trying to call the doctors for 
an appointment. 

540
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,200
They have literally found 
someone dead in their yard. 

541
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,080
They're also theorizing already 
that she must. 

542
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,960
Have fallen from the balcony. 
Which was only about 14 feet off

543
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,200
the ground. 
It's a second story balcony. 

544
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,640
It's really not that high. 
Well, Jose on the phone, I say 

545
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,920
it was 14 feet off the ground. 
And that's true. 

546
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,480
But Jose on the phone calls it 
20 feet off the ground, 

547
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,880
explaining that if she was to 
get up and stand on the railing,

548
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,360
she would have fallen further. 
But why the hell would she climb

549
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,960
all the way up so that she's 
balancing stood on a railing? 

550
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,520
I mean, we'll get to the 
theories and the weirdness of 

551
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,480
everyone's reports very quickly,
but right off the bat, why the 

552
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,040
hell would she be tightrope 
walking the balcony railings at 

553
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,680
2:00 AM? 
And why is that one of the first

554
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,360
things we're saying on the 911 
call? 

555
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,560
In fact, there's quite a few odd
moments from Jose in this call. 

556
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,840
About two minutes in the 
official release, 911 call seems

557
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,480
to have a redacted section. 
Now, I can't say that for sure, 

558
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,520
so I guess I need to say 
allegedly. 

559
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,320
Allegedly. 
Maybe the line cut off or 

560
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,440
something but I don't know. 
It doesn't seem like that to me 

561
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,760
because when the call comes back
in about 30 seconds later they 

562
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,320
are mid conversation. 
So clearly they were talking 

563
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,840
during that time, but it's just 
not been released. 

564
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,680
I'm completely not sure. 
Jose is seemingly checking for 

565
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,840
blood near Tamela when the call 
comes back in and he says that 

566
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,800
he found a little bit on her 
sleeve, but he can't see much 

567
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,840
more since she's laying face 
down and again, he doesn't want 

568
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,000
to touch her or move her. 
Now. 

569
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,200
When I watched Bailey Sarian's 
coverage of this case, she made 

570
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,360
a really good point that the 
dispatcher asks when the call 

571
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,280
comes back in and they're 
talking about the blood on her 

572
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,400
sleeve. 
She asks Jose if he knows 

573
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,480
whether Tamela was suicidal at 
all. 

574
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,360
Does this mean that Jose had 
implied already in the 911 call 

575
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,000
that the blood on Tamler's wrist
may have come from a 

576
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,720
self-inflicted injury? 
Is that what was left out of the

577
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,440
911 call? 
Very much a theory, mind you. 

578
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,240
Very much alleged, but a really.
Interesting thing for her to 

579
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,800
catch. 
So shout out Detective Bailey, 

580
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,760
but Jose seems really reluctant 
to go anywhere near Tamler or 

581
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,080
touch her at all. 
Bear in mind his job literally 

582
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960
requires him to be 
professionally trained in CPR 

583
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,040
and other life saving 
techniques, but he doesn't seem 

584
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,040
willing to try shit. 
He doesn't attempt CPR or check 

585
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,680
for a pulse. 
Not once did he ever try to see 

586
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,240
if there was anything that he 
could do to help Tamela. 

587
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,760
Why? 
Why didn't Madeline call 911 

588
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,000
right away? 
Why did she need to speak to 

589
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,600
Jose that morning before 
alerting anyone else? 

590
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,760
Did everyone really just go to 
bed while Tamela was left alone 

591
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,360
in the living room? 
And how did so many people, 

592
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440
about half the party leave the 
house that morning and not 

593
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:49,560
notice her body lying outside? 
Make it make sense, because none

594
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,000
of it does. 
The first officers arrived on 

595
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,760
the scene at 9:07 AM. 
There were detectives from the 

596
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,840
Sheriff's Department, people 
from the Major Crimes unit, 

597
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,800
crime scene investigators and 
even someone from the county 

598
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,440
coroner's office. 
A hell of a lot of police on 

599
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,600
scene already trained 
investigators, people who should

600
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,000
have known exactly what they 
were doing. 

601
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,280
Now, this next part is 
incredibly important because the

602
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,000
way that Tamela's body was found
by these many, many police 

603
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,840
officers on the scene was quite 
different to how Jean had 

604
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,680
described it. 
She was face down but like her 

605
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:30,080
arms were down like she just 
face planted is the best way I 

606
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,080
can describe it. 
So her arms are like by her. 

607
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,680
Side. 
Yeah, they were by her side, 

608
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,320
palms up, and he said. 
It palms up, like to her back. 

609
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,240
Like, yeah, this is already very
inconsistent with falling from 

610
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,040
the balcony. 
If she had accidentally fallen, 

611
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,040
her body wouldn't be laid so 
neat. 

612
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,840
She'd be sprawled out, limbs 
bent, maybe one of them tucked 

613
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,320
up beneath her. 
Because wouldn't your natural 

614
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,640
reaction be if you were falling 
to put your hands out in front 

615
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,440
of you to break the fall? 
But no, when officers arrived, 

616
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,400
Tamela was laid nothing like how
Jean had described. 

617
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,600
She wasn't straight and flat, 
arms by her side. 

618
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,880
In fact, one of her arms was 
bent in AV shape, extending away

619
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,840
from her, not by her side. 
Her palm was facing down, not up

620
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,840
as well. 
Her head was tilted and facing 

621
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,440
to the side, not literally face 
down into the ground like Jean 

622
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,040
said. 
Police even brought this up to 

623
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,480
her about this inconsistency and
she doubled down telling them 

624
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,680
that she saw what she saw. 
Tamela was laid perfectly 

625
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:33,640
straight down. 
Do you? 

626
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:35,560
Remember her hands being 
fireside. 

627
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,280
Yes, and I know everybody. 
There's different things that 

628
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,800
says 1's out or whatever. 
I am telling you, Jen saw it, I 

629
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,120
saw it, Jose saw it, my aunt saw
it. 

630
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,040
I will never get that image out 
of my head that that woman's 

631
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,840
hands, it was so just unnatural 
that they were down by her side 

632
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,440
and like, and if she fell, why 
didn't she try to stop? 

633
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,680
Like that's my first thought is 
I guess I would put my hand 

634
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,840
like, how do you land like that?
And I'll never get that image 

635
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,360
out. 
I don't know who failed in 

636
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,840
documenting what, whether the 
corner, the officers on the 

637
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,320
scene, I don't know if it's 
somebody moved her, I don't 

638
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,120
know. 
But that is what I saw. 

639
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,400
So now that the body positioning
is officially described 

640
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,560
differently by the 1st 
responders, it does seem a bit 

641
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,120
more consistent with falling. 
Yes, but something's still not 

642
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,400
right here. 
Clearly. 

643
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,800
Either Jean was describing the 
positioning of Tamela's body so 

644
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,560
blatantly incorrectly at first 
for some reason, or her body had

645
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,960
been touched and moved by 
someone before the cops arrived,

646
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,720
which they all insisted that 
they didn't do. 

647
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,840
I mean, famously, Jose didn't 
want to touch her to get her 

648
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,040
pulse or to perform CPR. 
He later said actually that he 

649
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,040
had touched Tamela. 
He said that he had picked up 

650
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,640
her leg and tried to bend it, 
but this is how he realized that

651
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,840
she was stiff and that rigor 
mortis had set in, that she was 

652
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,120
definitely dead. 
He could tell that because he 

653
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,360
picked up her leg and tried to 
flop it about a bit. 

654
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,960
But when did this happen? 
Because on that 911 call he 

655
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,600
seems quite insistent that he 
hasn't and can't touch or move 

656
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,440
her. 
But as soon as they come off 

657
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,800
that call, the police have 
already arrived at the scene and

658
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,600
seen Tamela for themselves and 
she's in a different position so

659
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,000
she can't have been moved after 
the call either, right? 

660
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,239
Also, can we talk about that leg
situation? 

661
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,679
What an odd way to check on 
someone who is laid face down 

662
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:32,840
and unresponsive. 
Surely you would check check her

663
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,960
pulse on her neck or on her 
wrist rather than pick up a 

664
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,000
whole leg to check if she's 
stiff yet. 

665
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,960
Like it's almost lacking in 
humanity isn't it? 

666
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,800
And Jean, in her interview with 
the police is still suggesting 2

667
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,080
main theories that Tamela either
fell from the balcony or she 

668
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:56,440
took her own life with that 
wrist injury, which by the way, 

669
00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,080
it turned out to be a broken 
wrist, not a self-inflicted cut.

670
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,760
But the thing that strikes me, 
and frankly, the whole team here

671
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,800
at Outlaw is that they're 
immediately jumping to such 

672
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,760
horrific conclusions. 
Like in the 1st 10 minutes of 

673
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,640
seeing Tamela face down in the 
yard, they're thinking that she 

674
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,560
either scaled the fucking 
building, climbed the balcony 

675
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,640
railings and fell or jumped. 
That was one of the theories at 

676
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,120
one point that she just like 
threw herself on the floor or 

677
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,440
that she randomly cut her wrist 
and took her own life in the 

678
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,960
garden after this party. 
Are there not any other 

679
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,000
reasonable explanations for such
a sudden death? 

680
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,680
I don't know, like a heart 
attack or something? 

681
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,680
It took me back a bit that they 
immediately start offering up 

682
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,000
theories in the 911 call all 
together, but the fact that 

683
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,680
they're all quite graphic 
explanations as well. 

684
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,600
Especially given that they all 
said that they couldn't see 

685
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,400
blood at 1st until they looked 
closer at her wrist. 

686
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,800
I just think if that was me, if 
I found my friend like this in 

687
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,760
the garden after a birthday 
party, I would assume that 

688
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,520
something awful and sudden and 
random had happened to them like

689
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,680
a medical issue, not that they 
had gone outside and taken their

690
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,160
life in my garden after my 
birthday party while we were all

691
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,480
asleep inside. 
What kind of a conclusion is 

692
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,960
that to come to immediately? 
An important thing to note about

693
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,280
Tamela's arm that was now 
extended away from her body is 

694
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,640
that there was evidence that her
palm had once been face up, but 

695
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,400
now it wasn't. 
There was apparently grass, or 

696
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,600
like grass, in imprints on the 
back of her hand, like it had 

697
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,560
been laying into the grass for 
some time until it was shifted. 

698
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,560
But no one, not Jean, not Jose, 
not any single police officer or

699
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,520
first responder or party 
attendee will own up to having 

700
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,880
moved Pamela's arm. 
So who did it? 

701
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,000
Now, lots of people have 
questioned whether it's possible

702
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,280
that someone had moved her arm, 
be it police or someone at the 

703
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,520
party, in order for it to fit 
the narrative that she fell from

704
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,440
the balcony or tripped over and 
fell. 

705
00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:05,000
Because when a black woman is 
found dead at a white woman's 

706
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,280
house, wouldn't it be easier for
everyone, including the police, 

707
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,840
if it could just be labeled an 
accident and brushed away? 

708
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,920
And considering the racist 
history of Forsyth County, it 

709
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,040
wouldn't exactly be surprising 
if this was the case. 

710
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,960
The area in which all these 
women lived has a really long 

711
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,520
history of racism. 
Between 1912 right up into the 

712
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,720
1980s, black people were not 
allowed to live in Forsyth 

713
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:33,320
County. 
Well, anyone who wasn't white 

714
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,120
would be purposefully excluded 
and the county used everything 

715
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,040
from racist laws to straight up 
threats and violence to keep it 

716
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,240
that way. 
To put it simply, it was a sun 

717
00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:48,040
downtown and if people of color 
tried to live there, which they 

718
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,400
did at points, they would be met
with hostility and violence and 

719
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:57,440
the looming threat of murder. 
Many, many public lynchings 

720
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,360
would take place in Forsyth 
County where townspeople would 

721
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:05,000
show up in their thousands to 
watch people of color die. 

722
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,400
It mainly started in 1912, when 
a 24 year old black man named 

723
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,080
Rob Edwards was lynched after he
was accused of raping and 

724
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,880
murdering a young white woman. 
But here's the thing. 

725
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,920
There was never any actual 
evidence that that crime had 

726
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,640
even happened. 
Regardless, hundreds of people 

727
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,720
in the community gathered 
outside the jail. 

728
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,280
They beat him with crowbars. 
They dragged him through the 

729
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,960
town and watched him be killed. 
And even then, after he was 

730
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,680
already dead, they hoisted his 
body up onto a Telegraph pole 

731
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,680
for the townspeople to shoot at.
The word overkill is an 

732
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,600
understatement here. 
The townspeople took immense joy

733
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,440
in doing this. 
After that case of Rob Edwards, 

734
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:53,000
all hell broke loose. 
White mobs began setting fire to

735
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,600
black-owned businesses and black
churches in an effort to 

736
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,720
racially cleanse the area and 
run people of colour out of 

737
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:02,920
town. 
And it worked. 

738
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,480
All 1098 Black residents, which 
was about 10% of the population 

739
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,880
at the time, were forced out of 
their homes, terrified to try 

740
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,120
and live there when their 
literal life was at stake. 

741
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,160
And for decades following that, 
the county remained entirely 

742
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,480
white. 
Even as recently as 1990, there 

743
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,160
were only 14 Black residents in 
the whole of Forsyth County. 

744
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,680
By the time that this case took 
place in 2018, the Black 

745
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,960
population in Forsyth County was
just 4%. 

746
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,760
I did mention right at the start
of this case that Tamela's 

747
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,120
family was one of the only black
families around and that really 

748
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:44,720
was not an exaggeration. 
And more specifically, the city 

749
00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:46,800
that they all lived in in 
Forsyth County. 

750
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,920
Coming was one of those very 
small, close knit southern 

751
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,320
communities where everyone knows
everyone and people seem to look

752
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,440
after their own, if you get what
I mean. 

753
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:00,760
Especially those who work in the
police force. 

754
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,880
Tamela's body was taken to the 
coroner's office where it stayed

755
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,240
for two days. 
This is routine. 

756
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,680
But the disturbing thing is that
one of the men working at the 

757
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,960
coroner's office had previously 
been fired from that job for 

758
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:18,840
posting racist images online. 
In 2014, Chris Shelton was 

759
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:22,200
forced to resign after sharing 
photos of himself and, I 

760
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,080
believe, another police officer 
posing with racist mammy dolls. 

761
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,080
You'd hope that that would be 
the end of his work in the 

762
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,960
authorities, right? 
But sadly, no. 

763
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,600
Two years later, he popped up in
Facebook photos standing right 

764
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,520
next to the guy who was running 
for sheriff in 2016. 

765
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,800
And once that guy won, Chris 
Shelton was appointed deputy 

766
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,080
coroner for Forsyth County. 
It seems that his mate had got 

767
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,600
him his job back and his racist 
actions were just forgotten 

768
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,080
about. 
Unsurprisingly, Jose Barrera, 

769
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,640
Shawn's boyfriend, knows at 
least 75% of the people working 

770
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,640
at the courthouse or in the 
Sheriff's Department. 

771
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,680
These are his boys, his mates, 
or the other cops. 

772
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,320
In fact, a good few of the 
officers that came out to the 

773
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,000
scene that day were personal 
friends of his. 

774
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,080
One of them was actually caught 
on body Cam footage saying and 

775
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,440
that he knows Jose very well. 
They've worked together for a 

776
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:16,800
while. 
Another interview caught one of 

777
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,160
the officers speaking with one 
of the women who was in 

778
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,720
attendance at the party and she 
actually worked with this 

779
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:25,600
officer's wife. 
Now, she told the officer that 

780
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,320
she was worried about being late
to work that day. 

781
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,440
And he said something along the 
lines of, oh, don't worry about 

782
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,680
it, I can have a word with my 
wife and it'll be fine. 

783
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,840
He would make it OK for her. 
As a police officer, I tell you 

784
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,720
all of this to really paint the 
picture of how close and 

785
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:44,440
interconnected all of these 
people are. 

786
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,400
The police, Jose, the women 
attending the party. 

787
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,560
There are so many social media 
photos that show them all moving

788
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,000
in the same circles. 
They have each other's backs and

789
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,440
it gets even worse. 
John Myers actually bought 2 of 

790
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,440
the detectives that were working
on the case. 

791
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,160
Duncan gift cards, which is 
wildly inappropriate to the 

792
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,880
point that it's almost 
unbelievable and she knew it 

793
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,600
too. 
She was caught on one of the 

794
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:15,280
officers body Cam footage. 
Like saying that this. 

795
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,440
I know this is really 
inappropriate but I just wanted 

796
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,800
to get you guys something. 
Look and I just went and got 

797
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,920
y'all gift cards. 
Oh, what are you going to be? 

798
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:24,720
I told. 
Them I just made them cookies. 

799
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,600
But then I was told I shouldn't 
because then it could look bad 

800
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,080
if I give you something before 
the case is closed. 

801
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:33,000
John Myers is clearly not 
stupid. 

802
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,360
She knew exactly how this would 
look, and she did it anywhere. 

803
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,080
That's not her just doing a kind
gesture just to do something 

804
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,520
kind. 
That's someone trying to cozy up

805
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,760
to the people in charge of the 
case, don't you think? 

806
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,000
And it wasn't just Jean either. 
You might have heard in that 

807
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,600
clip that Aunt Madeleine had 
baked the officers cookies. 

808
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,520
Girls, what are you fucking 
playing at? 

809
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,360
How suspicious do you want to 
come off? 

810
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,200
Because right now it's at Max 
potential. 

811
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,640
So yeah, there were connections 
everywhere. 

812
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,240
And it makes you wonder, did 
this have anything to do with 

813
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,200
the way that Tamela Horsford's 
case was handled? 

814
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,560
On the day that Tamela was found
dead, police went over to her 

815
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,440
home to break the news to her 
family. 

816
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,080
And this is possibly one of the 
most sensitive jobs that an 

817
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,120
officer will ever have to do. 
There is so much patience and 

818
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,880
empathy required to do this. 
You have to genuinely care about

819
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,280
the emotional well-being of the 
deceased family. 

820
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,560
Her widower too. 
But the officers breaking the 

821
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,040
news to Leander and to Tam's 
sons couldn't have been worse. 

822
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,760
Truly. 
They knocked on the door and 

823
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,040
Tam's husband Lee was actually 
in the bathroom at the time. 

824
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,240
So one of their sons answered 
the door and he quickly ran up 

825
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:44,160
to his dad to tell him that it 
was the police. 

826
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,600
Keep in mind the context that 
this is a Black family in a 

827
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:51,280
historically extremely racist 
area of America. 

828
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,160
Having the police drop by 
unannounced isn't just 

829
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,280
surprising, it can quickly turn 
into a very scary situation. 

830
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,960
Black communities have every 
reason to distrust the police, 

831
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,240
and that kind of history doesn't
just disappear. 

832
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,800
I actually think it's important 
to note that just two years 

833
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,760
after this case, Breonna Taylor 
would be shot and killed by the 

834
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,680
police inside of her own home. 
So when officers knocked on 

835
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,640
Lee's door that morning, he 
wasn't expecting it and he was 

836
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,560
cautious to speak with them 
before he knew what they were 

837
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,080
even here about. 
So they arrived at his door and 

838
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,720
they asked are you Lee? 
Before he confirmed his identity

839
00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:29,160
with them, he asked what is this
pertaining to? 

840
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,360
The officers had no patience for
Lee's caution and just repeated 

841
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,400
the question, Are you Lee? 
It immediately made the energy 

842
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:40,080
of this interaction hostile. 
Why wouldn't they tell him what 

843
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,640
they were there for in a 
sensitive way, you know, without

844
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,400
breaking the news immediately. 
It almost started to confirm 

845
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,920
Lee's fears around such an 
interaction. 

846
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,160
Since they won't explain 
themselves. 

847
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,640
Lee, he didn't want to explain 
himself either. 

848
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:57,640
Answer the door and the cop 
says, is your name Lee? 

849
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,840
And I said, and what's this 
pertaining to? 

850
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,280
And he said, is your name Lee? 
And I said, I'm going to ask you

851
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,440
once again, what is this 
pertaining to? 

852
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,160
He said, is your name Lee? 
And I said, actually, no, it's 

853
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,320
not, it's Leander. 
But once again, what is this 

854
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,120
pertaining to? 
And he said, well, your wife is 

855
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,880
deceased. 
So he said it's about your wife,

856
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,040
she's deceased. 
That was his exact words. 

857
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,440
It's about your wife, she's 
deceased. 

858
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,800
And I said what? 
I said no, no, no, no, no, no, 

859
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,200
no, no. 
I said, where's she at? 

860
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,280
And I went to go get my clothes 
and, and all this stuff because 

861
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,800
I was thinking this is 
horseshit. 

862
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,440
First, I think she got into a 
car accident or something like 

863
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,120
that. 
Somebody hit her or something 

864
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,720
like that. 
And they're like, Oh no, it was 

865
00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:42,080
an accident and this and that. 
And I was you can't go, you 

866
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,480
can't go, you can't go over 
there. 

867
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,000
Everybody, everything's been 
taken care of already. 

868
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,520
No, we don't want you going over
there. 

869
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,440
This and that. 
So I was sitting on the front 

870
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,240
porch with them and they're 
like, well, it seems that if 

871
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:54,680
there was an accident, seems she
tripped over something and fell 

872
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,720
in the grass and, and this and 
that. 

873
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:59,320
And I'm like my wife tripping 
over something and falling in 

874
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,400
the grass. 
I've seen this girl drink a half

875
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,000
a bottle of tequila and dance 
salsa in six inch heels. 

876
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,080
That's don't make no sense. 
She didn't trip over anything. 

877
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,120
And well, Sir, that's where 
we're at right now, this and 

878
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,040
that. 
Would you like us to, to, to get

879
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,440
her car? 
And I was like, what really? 

880
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:17,800
That's what we're talking about 
right now. 

881
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,520
So he talked to his officer and 
told his officer. 

882
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,720
He said go get her car. 
And so they went, got her car 

883
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:28,160
and gave me her cell phone. 
And that was basically, well, if

884
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:29,760
there's anything you need, 
here's my card. 

885
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,160
And then he scratched his actual
cell phone number off of the 

886
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:38,720
card but gave me the card. 
The lack of patience and empathy

887
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,760
is just abhorrent. 
To break the news to a man that 

888
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,520
his wife, the love of his life, 
the mother of his five children,

889
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,920
is dead in such a hostile and 
aggressive way is just 

890
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,160
despicable. 
I can't help but feel like if 

891
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,960
this had been a white family, 
not only would this interaction 

892
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,560
have gone down much differently,
but there would have also been a

893
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,840
lot more patience and 
understanding. 

894
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,720
The way that the news was 
delivered almost feels 

895
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,840
revengeful, like tit for tat. 
You've pissed us off by not 

896
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,400
confirming your identity, so now
we're just going to break the 

897
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,120
news in the worst way possible 
and leave you emotionally 

898
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,560
scarred. 
Lee didn't fully believe what he

899
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,640
was hearing at first. 
He couldn't. 

900
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,520
He went to go and get dressed, 
saying that he wanted to see 

901
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,040
Tamela himself. 
He was thinking that maybe she 

902
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,120
was in the hospital, Maybe it 
had been a car accident or 

903
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,400
something. 
Something that could make sense,

904
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,840
Something fixable. 
But the police wouldn't let him 

905
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,280
go. 
They told him that it was an 

906
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,840
accident, and they told him what
had happened. 

907
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,080
Which, by the way, they'd 
already come to a conclusion on 

908
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,960
very, very quickly. 
There'd not been an autopsy yet.

909
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,000
No formal interviews with the 
people at the party, barely an 

910
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,400
investigation at all. 
But they're sitting there 

911
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,360
telling him exactly how they 
feel. 

912
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,320
His wife died. 
The story was already decided. 

913
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,000
Tamela had tripped and fallen to
her death. 

914
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,040
They really shouldn't have been 
saying this to Lee with that 

915
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,240
much certainty without knowing 
the results of the autopsy. 

916
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:07,000
It's just wrong. 
Especially because that very 

917
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,920
first theory didn't actually 
involve the balcony at all. 

918
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,440
Because at first they were 
saying she was walking on a flat

919
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,000
ground and tripped over a little
thing, maybe this high that 

920
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,600
holds the the rocks or mulch, 
whatever inside. 

921
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,120
They said she tripped over that.
She was so drunk that she 

922
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:26,720
tripped over that so face first 
into the grass and just laid in 

923
00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:29,280
the grass and died. 
That was their original story. 

924
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,800
So this is a high balcony or 
one? 

925
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,080
Where you could live, you can 
make it for. 

926
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:35,520
No, I'm not even talking about 
the balcony. 

927
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,880
I'm talking about their story. 
Was walking. 

928
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,600
They said she was downstairs on 
the downstairs floor, the 

929
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,720
basement floor, walking and 
tripped over something. 

930
00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:47,040
Just tripped over it. 
Went straight in the grass from 

931
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,440
standing on her feet. 
That was their original story. 

932
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,520
Fell face first in the grass and
just suffocated and died. 

933
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,720
Said the police's initial theory
was that Tamela had just been so

934
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:04,120
drunk that she had tripped, I 
guess like over her own feet and

935
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:07,320
fell on ground level. 
She tripped over something in 

936
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:12,640
the garden and just died, as if 
that ever really happens. 

937
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,720
This theory makes no sense at 
all, but honestly neither does 

938
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:19,440
the balcony theory. 
That thing, like I said, was no 

939
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,320
more than 14 feet off the 
ground. 

940
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,160
It would have been a survivable 
fall. 

941
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,880
When I was young I'd see lads 
jumping from higher heights at 

942
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:28,520
the park and landed it 
perfectly. 

943
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,720
If Tamela had fallen from that 
balcony it'd be a broken bone or

944
00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:36,160
two at most surely. 
And actually you'd expect the 

945
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,440
worst injuries to be to her face
since she supposedly fell face 

946
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,240
down. 
If we're going by what Jean said

947
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:45,040
when she found the body, it 
would be a broken nose or a 

948
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,160
tooth knocked out, but there 
were no such injuries. 

949
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,200
And you know when you like fall 
and you hit your chin, sometimes

950
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,000
you might end up biting your 
tongue or split in your lip. 

951
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:58,320
Again, nothing like that. 
For someone who supposedly fell 

952
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,360
face down from a height, her 
injuries simply were not 

953
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:06,120
consistent with that, which is 
strange to say the least. 

954
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,360
Finally, when the autopsy 
results came back, it revealed 

955
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,600
that the medical examiner did in
fact find multiple blunt force 

956
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:17,760
injuries to Tamela's body, head,
and neck, but not the kind of 

957
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,680
injuries that you'd imagine. 
So let's break it down. 

958
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:26,120
First off, Tamela had a 
subarachnoid hemorrhage, which 

959
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,480
is basically bleeding in the 
space around your brain. 

960
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,200
You don't get that from just 
slipping and falling gently. 

961
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,560
That is a major knock to the 
head. 

962
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,000
And there was also a subdural 
hemorrhage too, which means 

963
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,360
bleeding between the brain and 
the skull. 

964
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:42,920
Again, not just some little 
bruise. 

965
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:46,200
It's major trauma. 
She had a fracture to her second

966
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:50,240
cervical vertebrae, which is 
high up in the neck basically, 

967
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:54,440
and it takes serious force to 
break that bone, either from a 

968
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:59,520
brutal fall from high heights or
or something much more sinister.

969
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,640
And then there was a laceration 
to her heart. 

970
00:51:04,720 --> 00:51:10,280
A laceration to her heart, 
obviously still inside her body.

971
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,240
How the fuck does that happen? 
Do you know how hard you would 

972
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:18,160
have to be hit in the chest for 
there to be a laceration to the 

973
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,400
heart? 
I'm talking about car crash 

974
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,600
levels of force or a seriously 
violent beating. 

975
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,200
These injuries aren't just like 
oops she must have tripped over 

976
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:32,840
her own feet and fell over. 
These are serious massive high 

977
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,080
impact injuries. 
It would have taken a serious 

978
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:42,640
fall from a high height or a 
violent assault 'cause them then

979
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,520
adding bruises and abrasions all
over her face, her arms, her 

980
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,480
wrists, her legs, and even a 
dislocated wrist. 

981
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,880
And I'm sorry, but that just 
doesn't sound like someone who 

982
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,000
has just tripped over a second 
floor balcony railing, does it? 

983
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,800
And what's even more insane is 
that they didn't even check for 

984
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,760
signs of sexual assault. 
No sexual assault kit, no 

985
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,600
fingernail clippings, not even a
basic DNA swab. 

986
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,880
How can you even begin to rule 
something out when you haven't 

987
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,800
even done the basic checks? 
The toxicology report report 

988
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:16,400
showed that Tamela's blood 
alcohol level was at 0.238, 

989
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,520
which is nearly three times the 
legal driving limit. 

990
00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,840
And of course, she also had 
traces of THC in her system. 

991
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,720
And these things do all line up 
with what people had said about 

992
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:27,800
the night. 
But there's more in that 

993
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,080
toxicology report that doesn't 
line up. 

994
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:35,920
They found Xanax in her system. 
Pamela was never known to do 

995
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,040
Xanax. 
She wasn't prescribed it. 

996
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,000
No one around her was prescribed
it. 

997
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,080
Her family had never known her 
to take Xanax. 

998
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,120
And what was really interesting 
is that it hadn't yet been 

999
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,560
metabolized in her liver, 
meaning that she'd taken it very

1000
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:56,080
recently, before she had died. 
So who had given her that Xanax?

1001
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,240
She didn't know anyone with a 
prescription, but one of the 

1002
00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:01,920
moms at the party did have one, 
Bridget. 

1003
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,600
At first, Bridget was very vocal
about never giving her Xanax to 

1004
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,200
anyone, even if they asked for 
it. 

1005
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,240
She insisted that she needed it 
herself and she would never 

1006
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,720
never share it, but later the 
police found out that she had 

1007
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:16,960
lied about that. 
It turns out that Bridget had 

1008
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,200
given Xanax to both Jean and 
Stacey. 

1009
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,560
They found texts on Stacey's 
phone talking about getting 

1010
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,320
Xanax from Bridget, and Bridget 
herself even eventually admitted

1011
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,320
to giving Jean some as well, but
Jean completely denied it. 

1012
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,560
She said that this never 
happened, she had never had 

1013
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:37,920
Xanax from Bridget so. 
Someones not telling the truth 

1014
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:39,960
here. 
Well, let me ask you, because 

1015
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,280
yesterday you told me that you 
don't ever share your Xanax with

1016
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,760
anybody because you need it. 
I've gone through Stacy's phone 

1017
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,600
and I know you've given Stacy 
some Xanax. 

1018
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,160
After this happened, yeah. 
So with that said, yeah, because

1019
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,800
she was, I mean, I thought she 
was going to have a freaking 

1020
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,560
nervous breakdown. 
But I need to know then, because

1021
00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,640
Tam got Xanax from somebody. 
It didn't. 

1022
00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:02,080
It didn't just pop out of 
nowhere. 

1023
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:03,800
I want to make sure it's real 
clear. 

1024
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,000
You know, I'm not here to charge
you with giving her anything. 

1025
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:08,720
We just need to know where it 
came from. 

1026
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,680
I knew Stacy well enough that 
the woman was going to crack, 

1027
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,320
OK? 
I mean, she was going to fall. 

1028
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,360
How many did you did you give 
her one that morning and then 

1029
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,280
want and meet her that night to 
give her another one? 

1030
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,720
Just say I don't remember. 
That interview clip is batshit 

1031
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:28,320
insane actually. 
What the fuck are police doing? 

1032
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:31,920
It sounds like they're helping 
her with her story, telling her 

1033
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,000
to just say you don't remember 
It sounds less like an 

1034
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,080
investigation and more like 
coaching, giving someone an out.

1035
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,080
Before Bridget left the party at
1:47 AM that morning, it was 

1036
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,720
just her and Tamela, alone in 
the kitchen, chatting, waiting 

1037
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,720
for her husband to arrive. 
No one else was around. 

1038
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,920
And timeline wise, if anyone 
gave Tamela the Xanax, Bridget 

1039
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,120
would have been one of the last 
people who had a private moment 

1040
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,640
with her. 
And since the toxicology report 

1041
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,360
showed that it hadn't yet 
metabolized in Tamela's liver, 

1042
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,880
she'd probably taken it about an
hour or two before she died. 

1043
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,760
That's right around the same 
time that she and Bridget would 

1044
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,320
have been alone in the kitchen 
together. 

1045
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,120
I wonder if Tamela had mentioned
to her that she wasn't tired and

1046
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,240
she didn't want to go to bed 
yet, and Xanax could have been 

1047
00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:20,120
brought up as a solution to 
that. 

1048
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,080
So Bridget had the pills. 
She'd shared the pills with her 

1049
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,200
friends before, and then that 
night it was just her and Tam in

1050
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,920
the kitchen. 
And not long after that, Pamela 

1051
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,720
ends up dead with Xanax in her 
system. 

1052
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:36,920
I don't know about you, but that
sounds pretty fucking suspicious

1053
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,160
to me. 
The medical examiner concluded 

1054
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,880
that Pamela's injuries were 
consistent with those received 

1055
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:45,440
in a fall, and they ruled that 
her cause of death was multiple 

1056
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:49,280
blunt force injuries and the 
manner of death is accident. 

1057
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,880
But something really important 
to mention is that there were no

1058
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:57,120
photos taken of Tamelas body 
during her autopsy. 

1059
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,560
Which is more than weird because
it's quite literally required 

1060
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,720
and for some reason it just 
didn't happen. 

1061
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,440
In that same vein, the crime 
scene, well, they never actually

1062
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,600
called it a crime scene because 
it never ended up being a crime.

1063
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,480
It was just an accident. 
But it was also just really 

1064
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,600
badly documented. 
I mean, the police should have 

1065
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,320
treated it like a crime scene 
because they couldn't have 

1066
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,680
possibly known if this was a 
crime or an accident at the time

1067
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,160
of arrival. 
There was no proper perimeter. 

1068
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,560
There was no real evidence 
collection. 

1069
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,240
There were people walking around
and touching things and moving 

1070
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:34,920
things and contaminating the 
scene from the very beginning. 

1071
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,400
It's like they had already 
made-up their minds that this 

1072
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,000
was an accident. 
And it really makes you think, 

1073
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,360
did the police just want this 
case closed quickly and quietly?

1074
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,600
And tragically, that is what 
happened. 

1075
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:51,840
The case was officially closed 
on the 20th of February 2019. 

1076
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:57,440
It was officially an accidental 
death, but with no real answers 

1077
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,080
and no sense of justice. 
But Tamela's friends and family 

1078
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,600
have never stopped fighting for 
answers, and there is actually 

1079
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,280
something that you can do to 
help. 

1080
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,080
Yes, you listening right now 
there is a petition on 

1081
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:14,520
Change.org calling for the FBI 
to take over this investigation 

1082
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,880
because as we've seen, there 
were serious issues with how the

1083
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,040
Sheriff's Department handled 
this case. 

1084
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:24,960
Everything from posting racist 
photos online to their personal 

1085
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,040
connections with people at the 
party that night prove that this

1086
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,040
investigation was messed up from
the beginning. 

1087
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,120
When not naive and Tamilas 
friends and family aren't 

1088
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,960
either. 
They know just how much that can

1089
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:41,000
cloud the detectives judgment. 
So if you want to help, please 

1090
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:43,680
sign the petition, which is 
LinkedIn the description of this

1091
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:47,680
episode. 
Over 700,000 people already have

1092
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,640
and with your help, I know that 
we can get so many more names 

1093
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:54,360
added to that list. 
After signing your name, make 

1094
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,800
sure that you confirm your 
signature by clicking the link 

1095
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:58,560
in your e-mail or it won't 
count. 

1096
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:00,720
That bit is super, super 
important. 

1097
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,400
And when you've signed, please 
share it around, post it on your

1098
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,920
story, send a link into the 
family group chat. 

1099
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,720
Don't let this case get brushed 
on off and forgotten, because it

1100
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,440
really does seem like there's 
way more to this. 

1101
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:18,200
And what an injustice to Tamila 
if we let this ruling remain 

1102
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:21,680
unchallenged. 
Now the time had come for Tamela

1103
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:25,640
Horsford's funeral, which was 
paid for by Jean's mother. 

1104
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,960
Actually, she also paid for 
plane tickets for Tamela's 

1105
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,480
stepdaughter and her family to 
be able to attend. 

1106
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,920
Jean says that she asked her mum
to pay for the funeral because I

1107
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:37,760
was upset that this woman was a 
stay at home mum with five 

1108
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:39,760
children. 
They were renters. 

1109
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,680
They didn't have life insurance 
and it wasn't fair. 

1110
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,160
And while we're on the topic of 
the funeral, let me quickly take

1111
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:48,400
you back to the moment that Jean
gifted the detectives Duncan 

1112
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,840
gift cards because she's heard 
doing all of that on body Cam 

1113
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,960
audio. 
And I assume it was on the same 

1114
00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:56,920
day as the funeral because she 
follows it up with do you need 

1115
00:58:56,920 --> 00:58:58,440
me? 
Or can I go upstairs and get 

1116
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,560
ready for this funeral? 
This funeral, not Tamela's 

1117
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:07,240
funeral, not even her funeral, 
this funeral, like it's a chore,

1118
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,760
like it's totally emotionally 
disconnected from her. 

1119
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,520
Mind you, this. 
Is a woman. 

1120
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,440
That she called a friend who 
died in her garden. 

1121
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:21,600
Her choice of that one word 
actually speaks 1000. 

1122
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,720
But now let's talk about Tam's 
family. 

1123
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,160
When it came time for her 
funeral, Lee went to the Funeral

1124
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,160
Home to do a viewing, something 
that usually happens before the 

1125
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,080
actual ceremony. 
It's a moment where close family

1126
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:37,480
members can see their loved 1 
privately and say goodbye, maybe

1127
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,480
spend a bit of time with them 
before the service. 

1128
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:42,360
It's deeply personal, deeply 
emotional. 

1129
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:46,640
But when Lee got there, his 
heart just broke. 

1130
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:50,920
What they had done to Tamela's 
face was horrible. 

1131
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,720
Of course they tried to cover up
the bruising and the marks with 

1132
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:57,880
makeup, but the makeup that they
had used was straight up 

1133
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:01,200
disrespectful. 
The white people working there 

1134
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:06,040
had essentially put Tamela 
Hosford in blackface and no one 

1135
01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,080
else seemed to have a problem 
with it other than Lee. 

1136
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:13,440
This is The thing is that a lot 
of people don't know the extent 

1137
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,520
of the injuries, but I know them
because, and this is going to 

1138
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,440
shock some people, but when I 
went into the Funeral Home, I 

1139
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,040
probably scared the shit out of 
everybody because I yelled what 

1140
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:28,480
the fuck as loud as I could. 
I walked in and I saw my wife 

1141
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,680
look like she had shoe Polish on
her face, black shoe Polish all 

1142
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,920
over her face. 
And I flipped out and I was like

1143
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,840
Nope, Nope, Nope. 
And I walked out and I told 

1144
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,720
them, take that off of my wife. 
Well, Sir, well, we I'm sorry, 

1145
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,680
but we had to cover up the 
bruising and this and not cover 

1146
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,120
up the bruise. 
You don't cover up the bruising 

1147
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:49,040
with black sheep. 
All shit. 

1148
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,640
My wife is my color you know, 
but yet her her skin was this 

1149
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:58,200
color like blackface. 5 little 
boys came out and asked their 

1150
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:01,680
dad what was wrong and Lee just 
said you can't go in there, you 

1151
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,760
can't, you can't see that that 
is not your mum. 

1152
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:07,680
Their eldest son however was 
pissed at this. 

1153
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,440
Of course he wanted to see his 
mum one last time but Lee didn't

1154
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,400
want any of his kids remembering
their mum like that, especially 

1155
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:19,360
with that fucking face paint on.
But his eldest was insistent, 

1156
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,240
and so Lee said to him, You're 
making a grown man decision that

1157
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:24,360
you're going to have to deal 
with. 

1158
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,720
Still, their son wanted to see 
her, and so he took him inside, 

1159
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,240
just the two of them. 
And they stood there looking at 

1160
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,960
her. 
But neither of them shed a tear.

1161
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:37,520
Not because they weren't 
devastated, they truly were, but

1162
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:39,920
because it didn't look anything 
like her. 

1163
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:44,280
The way that the Funeral Home 
had dressed up and painted this 

1164
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,320
poor woman had ruined the very 
last moment that her family 

1165
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,960
could have had with her. 
That wasn't Lee's wife, that 

1166
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,400
wasn't the boy's mum, that 
wasn't Tamela Horsford, not the 

1167
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:59,040
way that they knew her. 
And that made the pain even 

1168
01:01:59,040 --> 01:02:01,440
worse. 
Now I know we've already gone 

1169
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:04,320
through a lot. 
The inconsistencies, the dodgy 

1170
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,720
behaviour, the lies. 
It's a lot to take in, and 

1171
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,360
somehow we're not done yet. 
Let me take you back to the 

1172
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,960
security system at Jean's house,
the one that sends a 

1173
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,120
notification to her phone with 
the exact timestamps of when a 

1174
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,360
door to the outside is opened or
closed. 

1175
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,720
We saw Tamela leave out of the 
back for her smoke at 1:49 AM. 

1176
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,240
She closed the door behind her a
minute later at 1:50 AM. 

1177
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:32,360
But then the door opens again at
1:57 AM, which you would assume 

1178
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,320
was Tamela coming back inside 
after her smoke, but there never

1179
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:38,840
comes a notification that it had
closed again. 

1180
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,320
Now I don't know about you, but 
this raises a lot of questions 

1181
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,680
for me because who opened that 
door? 

1182
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,120
Like was it actually Tamela 
coming back in? 

1183
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:52,080
Because I mean she was found 
outside so she clearly never 

1184
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:55,280
actually made it in, or if she 
did, she ended up coming back 

1185
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:59,280
out into the yard? 
Or was someone else all together

1186
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:03,600
coming outside to her? 
And these alerts weren't the 

1187
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,720
only kind of security system 
that Jean had. 

1188
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:10,360
She also had cameras in the back
garden, in the exact spot 

1189
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,640
actually where Tamela's body was
found. 

1190
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:15,880
But it just so happened that 
they were all out of battery 

1191
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,200
that night. 
What a horrendous fucking shame,

1192
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,240
because that footage could have 
easily answered a lot of the 

1193
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,720
questions surrounding this very 
suspicious case. 

1194
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:28,960
It could have given us the clear
truth of the situation. 

1195
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,600
Now, as I said earlier, a lot of
this case did rely on witness 

1196
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,320
statements from everyone that 
was in the house that night, but

1197
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:39,000
not one of them can keep a 
straight story. 

1198
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,240
We've already heard how Bridget 
had originally told the police 

1199
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,840
that she would never give her 
friends any of her Xanax, but 

1200
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:48,320
later she admits that she's 
given it to two of her friends. 

1201
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,320
As a side note, by the way, 
Bridget's interviews with the 

1202
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:55,160
police are genuinely some of the
most peculiar parts of this 

1203
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,120
whole entire case. 
She rambles, she goes off topic 

1204
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:02,240
as often as she can, she's 
constantly telling them things 

1205
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:06,280
about how much children love 
her, she loves kids, she's the 

1206
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,920
mother hen of the group. 
I don't know she is she trying 

1207
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:10,960
to make herself seem sweet and 
trustworthy? 

1208
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,800
It's not at all relevant to the 
case, the ways in which she's 

1209
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,040
saying all this shit she's being
asked about that night, but 

1210
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:20,960
she's talking about how she's 
always watching the group's kids

1211
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,280
and warning them not to hurt 
themselves while they're 

1212
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,760
playing. 
There were no kids there at all 

1213
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:27,400
that night. 
It's literally not fucking 

1214
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,600
relevant. 
And I don't have a big circle of

1215
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:31,520
friends. 
I'm very close. 

1216
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:36,640
I'm very protective. 
I have Jean, you know, I have a 

1217
01:04:36,640 --> 01:04:41,440
little closer relationship with 
my boss to the point where he 

1218
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:44,320
understands my anxiety and his 
shows and stuff. 

1219
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:48,080
I've had time with his kids. 
They come here, they play where 

1220
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,760
Daddy's working. 
I mean, overall, I don't see my 

1221
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,000
down, my downfall. 
I don't trust people, though. 

1222
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,680
Yeah, you know, and it's more 
grown up people that I don't 

1223
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:00,440
trust. 
It's not so much children. 

1224
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:04,600
Bridget, in my opinion, seems to
be like an anxious talker, like 

1225
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:07,040
a rambler. 
And I mean, sometimes I do that 

1226
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:08,520
as well. 
Like if I'm like telling a 

1227
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:10,520
little white lie to someone and 
I can tell that they're catching

1228
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:12,480
me and I'm just talking. 
I'm talking and talking and 

1229
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,240
talking. 
And it seems like she's doing 

1230
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,320
the exact same thing. 
She even seems quite confident 

1231
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,560
in offering up another theory, 
saying that Tamela must have 

1232
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:26,000
hoisted herself up onto the 
balcony railing using a propane 

1233
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:29,120
tank as a step stool. 
Like, how could you possibly 

1234
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,320
even know that? 
Even if it was true, which trust

1235
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:36,400
me, no one fucking thinks that 
that happened but her, that was 

1236
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,720
weird, but nowhere near as 
suspicious as some of the 

1237
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,600
changing stories that I'm about 
to tell you. 

1238
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,880
Let's start with Aunt Madeline, 
because I mean, she already had 

1239
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,920
a dodgy story to begin with. 
She said that she saw Tamela's 

1240
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,440
body out of the window, she fell
to her knees and prayed, then 

1241
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:53,560
went upstairs, knocked. 
They didn't answer. 

1242
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,640
She went back downstairs, went 
back upstairs, knocked, and then

1243
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:00,720
she finally told people. 
Well, now she remixes the story 

1244
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,000
even more. 
She says that she had actually 

1245
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:07,360
gone outside to the garden that 
morning, I guess for fresh air, 

1246
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:11,160
and that was when she saw Tamela
laying face down on the ground. 

1247
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,960
Whenever people change their 
story like this, it's always so 

1248
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,120
confusing and quite indirectly 
suspicious. 

1249
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:20,840
She's not implicating herself in
anything here, really, but 

1250
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:25,000
that's a huge thing to just 
forget or remember differently 

1251
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:27,680
after some time. 
It is the literal moment that 

1252
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,400
you saw a dead body. 
Surely it's one of those 

1253
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,720
moments, one of those memories 
that were just ingrained into 

1254
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,120
your brain. 
You either recall seeing it 

1255
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,880
through a window or you recall 
seeing it outside and up close 

1256
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:41,600
in person. 
Which is it? 

1257
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,720
Aunt Madeleine says that she 
went outside, she saw Tamela's 

1258
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:48,760
body, and then she ran back 
inside and washed her face. 

1259
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:50,440
This is another addition to the 
story. 

1260
01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:53,240
She washed her face like splash 
it with water to like wake her 

1261
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:55,760
up and and make sure that she 
wasn't hallucinating. 

1262
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,920
And then she prayed and then she
ran upstairs. 

1263
01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:00,240
And the story is the same from 
that. 

1264
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,560
Whatever. 
And then we have Jose Barrera, 

1265
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,400
the cop, John's boyfriend, and 
he wants to switch up his story 

1266
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:10,200
a little bit as well. 
Up until now, he had said that 

1267
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,040
Aunt Madeleine came up to the 
bedroom, told them, and they all

1268
01:07:13,040 --> 01:07:15,280
went outside to see Tamela 
together. 

1269
01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,160
But now he says that he didn't 
actually go outside straight 

1270
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,160
away. 
He said that he actually 

1271
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:24,440
ventured out onto the balcony 
for a moment, the one that 

1272
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:28,400
Tamela had supposedly fallen 
from, but he wasn't out there to

1273
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:30,160
look and to see what was going 
on. 

1274
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,280
In fact, he insists that he 
didn't look up at all. 

1275
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:35,680
He didn't see Tam out in the 
garden at all. 

1276
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,480
He wasn't looking, which is 
weird considering you've just 

1277
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,720
been told that that is exactly 
where she is. 

1278
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:45,480
Why would you go out there onto 
the balcony and intentionally 

1279
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,960
not look look out for her? 
What was he even doing up there 

1280
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:52,880
if not looking at the body that 
they have just discovered in the

1281
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:54,760
garden? 
The only thing he really told 

1282
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,680
the police about going out onto 
the balcony was that he had 

1283
01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:00,880
spotted a cigarette and a 
lighter on the floor. 

1284
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:04,520
He explained to them that he has
OCD so he felt the immediate 

1285
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:06,720
urge to to pick them up and to 
tidy. 

1286
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:12,040
So he did, and then he went down
to see Pamela's dead body in the

1287
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:14,680
backyard. 
It sounds awfully fucking 

1288
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:17,200
convenient, doesn't it? 
Actually, that now all of a 

1289
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,439
sudden there is this new piece 
to the story that wasn't there 

1290
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:24,160
before, mind you, but now it 
hints to Tamela being up on the 

1291
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:28,040
balcony smoking before, I guess,
falling to her death. 

1292
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:33,000
It sounds a whole lot like 
planted evidence, doesn't it? 

1293
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:35,840
And I'm not saying it is because
I'm not allowed to say that. 

1294
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:39,240
But if this was some sort of 
fictional detective show, you 

1295
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:43,640
know, like a Poirot, I would be 
yelling at the screen that it 

1296
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,479
was planted to support their 
story that she was smoking on 

1297
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:49,000
the balcony. 
What kind of person hears the 

1298
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,600
news that there is an 
unresponsive woman laying in the

1299
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,600
backyard and their first 
reaction is not to panic, not to

1300
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,560
go down and check it out? 
So instead to just like, go hang

1301
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,680
out on the balcony for a minute 
and maybe do a bit of tidying up

1302
01:09:01,720 --> 01:09:03,840
What? 
Later on, Jose says that he 

1303
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:05,880
would have acted differently, 
and probably a lot more 

1304
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:09,800
urgently, if he would have known
what he was about to see out on 

1305
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,640
the backyard, that he didn't 
realize that Tamela's body was 

1306
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:18,160
down there, which is quite 
frankly, bullshit. 

1307
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:22,479
Aunt Madeline had told them that
Tam was laying out their face 

1308
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:26,960
down, not moving, unresponsive. 
He knew what he would have seen 

1309
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:30,000
if he'd have just looked up, but
he insists that he didn't. 

1310
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,240
He didn't try to look. 
I'm saying all of this like he's

1311
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:36,160
even telling the truth, which I 
personally don't believe that he

1312
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,200
is. 
Like I said, if this was a 

1313
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,520
fictional detective show, I 
would be so sure that that 

1314
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,720
cigarette and that lighter had 
been planted up there to support

1315
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:47,520
the theory that she fell as she 
went out for a smoke. 

1316
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,200
It also really doesn't add up to
me that a cig and a lighter 

1317
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:54,840
would be up there because Pamela
had been smoking downstairs this

1318
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:56,720
whole entire time on the bottom 
deck. 

1319
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:00,320
Like out of the back door. 
That back door, the one that 

1320
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:03,200
John keeps getting notifications
every time it opens and closes, 

1321
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,720
is the bottom back door. 
It ain't nowhere near the 

1322
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,280
balcony. 
Pamela hadn't smoked on the 

1323
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:15,320
balcony once that night, so why 
would she start at 1:50 in the 

1324
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,280
morning when it came to her last
cigarette of the night? 

1325
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:19,640
Why would she choose a different
spot? 

1326
01:10:20,280 --> 01:10:22,240
And then why would she climb 
onto the fucking rail in and 

1327
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:23,720
jump off? 
The handling of this 

1328
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:26,600
investigation has also been 
thrown into question because 

1329
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:30,320
apparently the group of party 
attendees were often left in 

1330
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:35,200
rooms together unsupervised and 
able to talk between interviews.

1331
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:38,440
Some immediate interviews were 
done on the day that Tamela was 

1332
01:10:38,440 --> 01:10:41,280
discovered to be dead, but the 
majority of the interviews 

1333
01:10:41,280 --> 01:10:45,200
didn't happen until five whole 
days later. 

1334
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:48,360
And you'd think surely they 
would have done these interviews

1335
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:52,320
at the police station, right? 
But no, they chose to do all of 

1336
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,120
the interviewing at Jean's 
house. 

1337
01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:56,640
And why they decided that, I 
couldn't tell you. 

1338
01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,680
The first round of interviews 
didn't start until the 9th of 

1339
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:03,120
November, and then they dragged 
on until the 20th. 

1340
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:07,920
That is 11 days of interviews, 
11 days for everyone at that 

1341
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,520
party to get their stories 
straight. 

1342
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,680
And neighbors of Jean's have 
even mentioned that in the days 

1343
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,040
following Tamela's death, it 
seems that all of the group of 

1344
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,200
party attendees kept meeting up 
at Jean's house almost every 

1345
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:25,960
single day, talking in private. 
And I can't imagine that the 

1346
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,840
conversations were unrelated to 
the case. 

1347
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:32,400
And especially when it comes to 
this cigarette and lighter bit, 

1348
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:36,440
we get what seems to be proof 
that they had all been getting 

1349
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:40,200
their story straight together. 
In one of her interviews, 

1350
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:43,840
Bridget tells the police that of
course she left with her husband

1351
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:47,160
at about 1:50 AM. 
But then she goes on to explain 

1352
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:51,080
to them what Tam did after that,
as if she could have fucking 

1353
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:53,200
known. 
She says that Tom went out into 

1354
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:55,440
the back and she left the door 
open. 

1355
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:57,680
She went out for a cigarette. 
She, you know, she never closed 

1356
01:11:57,680 --> 01:11:59,200
the door. 
She was out there smoking for 

1357
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,800
about 5 minutes and then she 
left her lighter and her 

1358
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,640
cigarette outside. 
And at this point the police had

1359
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:07,160
to stop her and say, how do you 
know all this? 

1360
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:09,560
You weren't there? 
And then she fumbles a bit 

1361
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:12,200
saying, oh, well, you know, 
that's, that's what Jose said. 

1362
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:16,120
At one point she almost blurts 
out that she had been the one to

1363
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:21,240
pick up the lighter, not Jose. 
Which what the fuck could it be 

1364
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:23,880
that when everyone was meeting 
up at Jean's house in between 

1365
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:28,080
interviews, Jose was coaching 
them all on how to keep their 

1366
01:12:28,080 --> 01:12:30,840
stories straight and in line 
with one another? 

1367
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:35,320
He was the cop after all. 
He knows how these things go and

1368
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,320
what investigators might look 
for. 

1369
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,200
And also just remember, he was 
the one that immediately took 

1370
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,800
over the 911 call within the 1st
2 minutes of the case even 

1371
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,160
beginning. 
He has been labeled something of

1372
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,560
a ringleader when it comes to 
the group in this case. 

1373
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:55,000
And I mean, I can understand why
all these different like story 

1374
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:58,760
changes and stuff aren't just 
little inconsistencies. 

1375
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:03,480
They paint a whole web of 
shifting and corroborating 

1376
01:13:03,480 --> 01:13:07,400
stories, but for some reason 
it's never really called out by 

1377
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,400
the police. 
The way that this whole case was

1378
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,880
handled is just messed up. 
I have no other way to put it. 

1379
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,240
These interviews that when you 
listen to them and you listen to

1380
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:19,840
how they're talking on the body 
Cam footage, it's so 

1381
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,680
uncomfortable because they're so
casual. 

1382
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,440
They're like laughing and joking
with each other, giving each 

1383
01:13:25,440 --> 01:13:29,600
other fucking Duncan gift cards.
A woman is dead and you guys are

1384
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,920
all chilling, just like catching
up, like a group of pals. 

1385
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,520
Which, let's be honest, they 
kind of were. 

1386
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:41,240
Jose knew a lot of these guys. 
A lot of them had wives who 

1387
01:13:41,360 --> 01:13:44,040
worked with, you know, one of 
the party attendees. 

1388
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:48,880
Like they were all somehow 
loosely linked to each other. 

1389
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,920
At least loosely, if not closely
linked to each other. 

1390
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,480
I completely understand why so 
many people feel that if it had 

1391
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:58,560
been one of the white women who 
had died at the party in this 

1392
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:01,880
way instead of Tamela, then this
whole case would have looked 

1393
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:04,800
very different. 
And if all of this wasn't bad 

1394
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:09,080
enough, just to top things off, 
Jose Barrera, a fucking parole 

1395
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:14,000
officer, was caught stealing 
Tamela's case files a year 

1396
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:16,200
later. 
Seriously, just when you think 

1397
01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:20,160
this case can't get any more 
messed up, in February 2019, 

1398
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:24,480
Jose used his position to 
illegally access Tamela's case 

1399
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:26,160
files without getting 
permission. 

1400
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,400
Why he needed to be in there, I 
have no idea. 

1401
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,040
People think that he was trying 
to stay on top of the 

1402
01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,520
investigation and he wanted to 
know what police knew about the 

1403
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:38,880
case. 
Jose was caught doing this and 

1404
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,600
he was fired. 
But still, if that doesn't 

1405
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:44,960
scream the level of corruption 
in this case, then I don't know 

1406
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,920
what does. 
Specifically, Jose was caught 

1407
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:51,640
looking into a woman named 
Michelle, who was actually 1 of 

1408
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,560
Tamela's closest friends. 
And from the very start, 

1409
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:58,040
Michelle hadn't bought this 
investigation and the way that 

1410
01:14:58,040 --> 01:14:59,920
it all went down. 
She just didn't trust the 

1411
01:14:59,920 --> 01:15:02,840
stories that these women told 
and she definitely didn't trust 

1412
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:05,200
the way that this case was being
handled by police and 

1413
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,560
investigators. 
She had made dozens of Facebook 

1414
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,840
posts laying out the events of 
that night and calling out the 

1415
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:15,120
inconsistencies and naming 
witnesses from the party. 

1416
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:20,160
Her posts were viewed over 
100,000 times, and 

1417
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:23,440
unsurprisingly, that didn't sit 
well with the people that she 

1418
01:15:23,440 --> 01:15:26,240
was calling out. 
In fact, seven of them, 

1419
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:31,000
including Jean and Jose, tried 
to sue Michelle for defamation, 

1420
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:34,160
claiming that her post accused 
them of being responsible for 

1421
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:37,640
Tamela's death. 
But Michelle claims that beyond 

1422
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:41,760
this lawsuit, the group has 
threatened and harassed her and 

1423
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:45,280
even apparently had her unjustly
arrested. 

1424
01:15:45,800 --> 01:15:48,960
Now, we don't know anything more
about this arrest, whether she 

1425
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,440
actually was arrested or what 
they claimed that they were 

1426
01:15:52,440 --> 01:15:55,720
arresting her for. 
But if it's true, doesn't that 

1427
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,680
just prove that the Dunkin' 
Donuts gift card worked? 

1428
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:02,960
You know, no legal action was 
ever taken against Jose for him 

1429
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:08,080
illegally dipping into these 
confidential files, but he's not

1430
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:11,160
the only corrupt cop involved in
this case. 

1431
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:14,400
Can you fucking believe it? 
The lead investigator, a guy 

1432
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,480
named Mike Christian, was also 
pulled off of the case. 

1433
01:16:17,640 --> 01:16:20,560
And he got in trouble for a few 
things actually, all at once. 

1434
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:25,200
First of all, having sex with 
women in his cop car while he 

1435
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:28,800
was on the clock. 
Now that might seem unrelated to

1436
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:30,800
this case, but trust me, it 
actually is. 

1437
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:34,200
In an attempt to be interesting 
to these women that he was 

1438
01:16:34,200 --> 01:16:38,800
sleeping with, he shared a lot 
of sensitive and confidential 

1439
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:42,520
information about Tamela 
Horsford's case with these 

1440
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:46,440
women. 
He even shared photos of her 

1441
01:16:46,440 --> 01:16:51,200
dead body and referred to her 
not by her name, but as the 

1442
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:55,840
Porch lady. 
No professionalism, no empathy, 

1443
01:16:56,280 --> 01:17:01,000
no game, just a weird, twisted 
freak of a cop. 

1444
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:04,800
There are so many layers to that
and it's all fucked. 

1445
01:17:05,120 --> 01:17:07,560
And it was actually the women 
that he told and, you know, 

1446
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:10,840
showed these photos that came 
forward and reported him for it,

1447
01:17:10,840 --> 01:17:15,080
knowing that what he'd done by 
showing them evidence and photos

1448
01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:17,520
and telling them sensitive 
information, they knew that that

1449
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:19,160
was wrong. 
Before he could be fired for 

1450
01:17:19,160 --> 01:17:22,200
this, Mike Christian just 
resigned from the force, 

1451
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:25,120
probably because he knew that he
was screwed at that point. 

1452
01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,280
Then actually, going back to 
Tamela's friend Michelle for a 

1453
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:32,160
second, she actually wasn't the 
only person getting harassed for

1454
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:34,960
speaking up about the 
inconsistencies in this case. 

1455
01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:38,120
The woman who started the 
original Change.org petition to 

1456
01:17:38,120 --> 01:17:41,600
reopen Tamela's case also 
claimed that she had been 

1457
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:44,360
targeted for speaking out 
against the Sheriff's Department

1458
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,120
in November 2019. 
So a whole year after the case, 

1459
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,680
she was detained by a police 
officer who said that he was 

1460
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:55,000
looking for three men involved 
in a car accident. 

1461
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:57,040
So why the fuck have you got 
her? 

1462
01:17:57,040 --> 01:18:00,480
Why would you detain her? 
She was of course cleared and 

1463
01:18:00,480 --> 01:18:05,040
released, but she thought it was
a very intentional punishment 

1464
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:09,280
from the authorities in the area
for being so outspoken against 

1465
01:18:09,280 --> 01:18:12,760
their shit work. 
And things didn't stop there. 

1466
01:18:12,840 --> 01:18:16,120
Just weeks after that, Forsyth 
County detectives showed up at 

1467
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:20,280
her house with a warrant for her
devices, claiming that she had 

1468
01:18:20,280 --> 01:18:23,240
sent an anonymous e-mail 
accusing one of the women at the

1469
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:25,680
party of being involved in 
Tamilas death. 

1470
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,200
She said that that wasn't true, 
and she sued the detectives for 

1471
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,120
civil rights violations. 
For both her and Michelle to 

1472
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:36,000
feel targeted like this and to 
have a good reason to feel that 

1473
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,040
way, it's borderline police 
harassment. 

1474
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:42,880
And despite all that pressure, 
they refused to back down. 

1475
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:45,960
They kept fighting for Tamela. 
And they weren't alone. 

1476
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:50,160
Because once people started 
hearing Tamela story, everyone 

1477
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:54,840
was demanding justice. 
In 2020, we all remember the 

1478
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,680
powerful global fight for 
justice sparked by the Black 

1479
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:02,000
Lives Matter movement. 
Tamela's case became part of 

1480
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:05,000
that conversation, and millions 
of people, including 

1481
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:08,760
celebrities, called for her case
to be reopened and for a proper 

1482
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:12,120
investigation to take place. 
And their voices were heard. 

1483
01:19:12,360 --> 01:19:16,360
In June of 2020, the Georgia 
Bureau of Investigation reopened

1484
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:20,200
Tamela's case, but almost in the
exact same breath, they stated 

1485
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:22,720
that they hadn't found any new 
evidence to suggest that foul 

1486
01:19:22,720 --> 01:19:25,840
play was involved. 
But Tamelas family attorney 

1487
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:29,560
didn't agree at all. 
Actually, in a letter he stated 

1488
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:32,880
that based on his review of the 
case, homicide is a strong 

1489
01:19:32,880 --> 01:19:35,840
possibility. 
He also pointed to conflicting 

1490
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:39,920
witness statements, the tampered
with crime scene, mishandled 

1491
01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:42,400
evidence, and the missing 
autopsy photos. 

1492
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:46,120
And that original autopsy was 
something that Tamela's family 

1493
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:48,960
didn't trust at all. 
So they arranged for an 

1494
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:50,440
independent one to be carried 
out. 

1495
01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:53,800
And it actually took place on 
November 17th, 2018, but it 

1496
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:56,360
wasn't made public. 
The results weren't made public 

1497
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,360
until 20/22. 
And there are some pretty 

1498
01:19:59,440 --> 01:20:01,680
obvious differences in the 
findings. 

1499
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:05,760
What the original autopsy 
described as a dislocated right 

1500
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:08,280
wrist was actually a compound 
fracture. 

1501
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:11,880
Now that's a small discrepancy, 
but it's fucking important, 

1502
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:14,520
don't you think? 
And it gets worse. 

1503
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:18,400
The independent examiner also 
reported no evidence of skull 

1504
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:22,960
fractures or hemorrhaging, which
is a huge red flag because it 

1505
01:20:22,960 --> 01:20:25,960
raises serious doubts that 
Tamela actually fell from the 

1506
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:28,800
balcony at all. 
To this day, the police haven't 

1507
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,960
been able to explain these 
discrepancies, at least not in a

1508
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:36,560
way that actually makes sense. 
There are obviously loads of 

1509
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:40,320
different theories about what 
actually happened to Tamela and 

1510
01:20:40,320 --> 01:20:43,400
what happened in John's house 
that night, and I'm sure you 

1511
01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:45,360
guys listening are already 
coming up with your own 

1512
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:48,120
theories. 
There are people who do believe 

1513
01:20:48,120 --> 01:20:51,120
that this really was just a 
tragic accident. 

1514
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:55,480
Maybe she did drunk fall and 
land in a way that caused a very

1515
01:20:55,480 --> 01:20:59,240
unlikely death. 
But I mean, I personally don't 

1516
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:02,400
believe that. 
Everything else surrounding it 

1517
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:05,960
is just way too shady for it to 
be an innocent explanation at 

1518
01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:08,880
this point. 
And why was her body moved? 

1519
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:10,640
That's the bit that keeps 
getting me. 

1520
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:15,280
Who moved the body? 
Why will not one single person 

1521
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:18,680
own up to having moved her? 
If she had fallen from the 

1522
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:21,800
balcony, surely she would have 
flipped over the railing 

1523
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:24,040
forward. 
She wouldn't land in a perfect 

1524
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,080
face down planking position. 
Her body would have literally 

1525
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:29,840
gone head up, the feet on its 
way down. 

1526
01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:32,840
She would be laid the complete 
opposite way, wouldn't she? 

1527
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:35,800
With her head towards the house,
not facing away. 

1528
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:38,280
Like I said, there are so many 
different theories and I want to

1529
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:41,040
know what you guys think about 
this case so bad. 

1530
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:43,400
The conversations that we've 
been having within the team 

1531
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:45,280
about this case are no longer 
enough for me. 

1532
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:49,400
I need more input and I just 
hope more than anything that one

1533
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,800
day we finally get some real 
answers. 

1534
01:21:51,800 --> 01:21:55,240
And if we keep demanding 
justice, maybe we will. 

1535
01:21:55,240 --> 01:21:57,760
If there's one thing that this 
job has taught me, it's that 

1536
01:21:57,760 --> 01:21:59,840
just. 
This doesn't always show up when

1537
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:02,400
you want it to, but that doesn't
mean that it won't. 

1538
01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,960
Justice doesn't have an expiry 
date. 

1539
01:22:05,000 --> 01:22:07,040
I mean, remember the San Antonio
4? 

1540
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:10,200
The case of four lesbian women 
who were imprisoned after a 

1541
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:13,320
corrupt homophobic trial based 
on lies. 

1542
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:16,760
They had to wait nearly two 
decades to clear their names, 

1543
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:22,200
but they did. 18 year old Andy 
Dodgers family waited 23 years 

1544
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:24,520
for justice until her real 
killer was found. 

1545
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:28,040
But he was. 
We refuse to let Pamela 

1546
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:31,440
Horsford's case fade away. 
Her name must remain in 

1547
01:22:31,440 --> 01:22:35,120
conversation, the racism 
drowning her case must be 

1548
01:22:35,120 --> 01:22:38,680
exposed, and none of us should 
be resting until we know every 

1549
01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:42,200
last truth. 
There have been numerous studies

1550
01:22:42,200 --> 01:22:45,200
carried out in the US about the 
difference in cases being 

1551
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,720
handled when it comes to a white
victim versus a Black victim, 

1552
01:22:48,960 --> 01:22:52,600
and time and time again, the 
data shows that Black families 

1553
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:56,560
experience a lower level of 
justice than white ones. 

1554
01:22:56,680 --> 01:22:59,840
For decades, activists have been
calling for structural and 

1555
01:22:59,840 --> 01:23:03,480
systemic changes to be made to 
eradicate this divide. 

1556
01:23:03,720 --> 01:23:07,840
Yet here we are, sitting at a 
pivotal moment in history where 

1557
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:12,040
fascism and racism is rearing 
its ugly head higher than ever 

1558
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:16,160
before and making this harder 
and harder for us to achieve. 

1559
01:23:16,480 --> 01:23:20,200
We need to see equality in 
police investigations, in 

1560
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:24,320
forensics and injustice systems 
coming into action now more than

1561
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:26,440
ever. 
We need to be on the right side 

1562
01:23:26,440 --> 01:23:28,360
of. 
History fighting in Tamela's 

1563
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:32,720
corner until it is truly over. 
In the description of today's 

1564
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:35,920
episode alongside Tamela's 
petition, which again, I want to

1565
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:39,120
call for you to go and sign now,
literally while you're listening

1566
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:41,520
to the end of this episode, 
click the link, open it in 

1567
01:23:41,520 --> 01:23:44,440
another tab, go do it and also 
check your e-mail and and 

1568
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:47,200
confirm it through there. 
But as I was saying, alongside 

1569
01:23:47,200 --> 01:23:49,920
that petition, you will also 
find a link to a charity called 

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01:23:49,920 --> 01:23:53,200
Color of change. 
They're AUS based online charity

1571
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:56,200
dedicated to challenging the 
racial injustice that Black 

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01:23:56,200 --> 01:24:00,880
people face when it comes to the
US legal systems, to healthcare,

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01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:04,680
political and corporate worlds. 
Their work to expose and 

1574
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:08,280
document correctly the reality 
of Black people's lives, 

1575
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:11,760
mistreatment and wrongful deaths
has been critical. 

1576
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:16,120
Their determination to secure a 
safer, less hostile world for 

1577
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:20,200
Black lives has had the support 
of several million members and I

1578
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,120
really urge everyone to check 
them out and if possible, to 

1579
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:26,000
donate to their cause. 
On their website, you can access

1580
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:30,320
so much information, knowledge, 
official reports they hold 

1581
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:33,680
online, events that you can 
join, and workshops educating 

1582
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:37,280
about Black history, black 
stories, and importantly, 

1583
01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:41,440
equipping everyone with how to 
fight for justice and secure a 

1584
01:24:41,440 --> 01:24:44,640
safer society. 
That work is truly incredible. 

1585
01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:48,000
So as I said, the link to both 
Tamela's petition and Color of 

1586
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:49,680
Change will be in the 
description below. 

1587
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:53,800
Please do visit both websites. 
Signing that petition, I'll say 

1588
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,360
it again, is your homework for 
this episode. 

1589
01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:59,840
We give homework on the Outlaw 
podcast now, but as we come to 

1590
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:02,560
the end of this case, I do want 
to take one last moment to 

1591
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:07,280
remember Tamela Horsford for the
beautiful person she was inside 

1592
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:11,720
and out, as a mother, as a. 
Wife, but most importantly, as 

1593
01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:16,400
herself, as the life of the 
party, as the warm magnetic 

1594
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:18,680
energy that everyone knew her to
be. 

1595
01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:22,600
She accepted and loved everyone,
no matter what walk of life they

1596
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,840
were from. 
She treated everyone that she 

1597
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:28,360
met with kindness and love. 
Always seeing the best in 

1598
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,480
people. 
Tamela was an incredible person 

1599
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:35,840
and her story deserves justice. 
It deserves an answer. 

1600
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:39,800
From all of us here at Outlaw 
Podcast, we send our sincere 

1601
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:44,120
condolences to the loved ones of
Tamela Horsford and that is all 

1602
01:25:44,120 --> 01:25:47,480
we have for today's episode. 
Thank you so much once again for

1603
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:50,480
tuning in to Outlaw Podcast. 
If you're watching on YouTube, 

1604
01:25:50,480 --> 01:25:53,400
don't forget to subscribe, leave
a like and leave us a comment so

1605
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:55,160
that we can continue the 
conversation. 

1606
01:25:55,200 --> 01:25:57,240
If you're listening on a 
podcast. 

1607
01:25:57,520 --> 01:26:00,960
If you're listening on a podcast
platform, please rate US five 

1608
01:26:00,960 --> 01:26:04,480
stars and also follow the 
podcast so that you get notified

1609
01:26:04,480 --> 01:26:06,640
or it gets put in your feed 
whenever we upload another 

1610
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:08,360
episode. 
I've noticed that a lot of 

1611
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,160
people are listening, but not a 
lot of people are following. 

1612
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:15,080
So please, if you could follow, 
subscribe, rate US, leave a like

1613
01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:17,400
leave a comment. 
Like I say, I keep checking the 

1614
01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:19,360
comment sections on the podcast 
platforms. 

1615
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:21,720
I see you there on Spotify. 
I love it. 

1616
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:25,560
But anyway, all of that being 
said, I will see you in the next

1617
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:26,840
episode. 
Bye.