1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,840 Bobby Justinet was a 23 year old woman that was murdered in 2004 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,280 for one reason and one reason only. 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:12,320 She was 8 months pregnant and someone wanted to steal her baby 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,400 directly from her womb and Bobby had to die in the process. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,800 Outlaw Hello and welcome to Outlaw Podcast. 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,160 I'm Eleanor Neil and today we're serving you up a true crime case 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,080 from the vault. This episode was originally 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,920 posted to my YouTube channel years ago before we existed as 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Outlaw Podcast, but I think it's time we add it to the Outlaw 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,200 catalog. So now I will hand back to me 11 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,840 from the past to take it away with today's vault case. 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:50,160 So today's video is going to be another solved true crime case, 13 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,600 and this is quite a harrowing 1. Today we're going to be talking 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:57,000 about the case of Bobby Joe Stin it Before we get into it, I do 15 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:59,240 just want to give my usual disclaimer that I mean 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,320 absolutely no disrespect to anyone that I talk about in this 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,400 video. This video is for educational 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,000 purposes and everything that I'm about to say is just information 19 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,600 that I have found on the Internet and I'm compiling into 20 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,640 one video. There are a lot of content 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 warnings for this case. This is a very, very heavy case, 22 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,760 so listen to the following list carefully. 23 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,120 And if there is anything that you really don't want to hear 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,560 about in this list, feel free to click out this video and 25 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,560 hopefully I'll get to see you some of the time with a 26 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,840 different video. But like I said, listen closely 27 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,400 to this because there's a lot. So this video is going to have 28 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,040 themes of sexual abuse, rape, the sexual abuse of a child, 29 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,560 more specifically alcohol abuse, forced prostitution, kidnapping, 30 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,560 fetal alcohol syndrome, animal abuse, mental illness including 31 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:47,240 depression, PTSD, BPD, and pseudocyesis. 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,520 If I've pronounced that right. A huge list and like I said, 33 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,560 click out now if you don't want to hear about any of that. 34 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,080 That being said, let's get straight into the case. 35 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,600 Bobby just in it was born on December 4th, 1981 in Missouri, 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,840 USA. She lived with her mum and her 37 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,880 dad in a very small town called Skidmore. 38 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,520 And when I say small, I mean tiny. 39 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:09,759 Like there was only a few 100 people there and there was 40 00:02:09,759 --> 00:02:11,720 really not much else. There was like nothing. 41 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,560 They didn't even have like big shops there. 42 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,640 They had to travel out of town if they wanted groceries and 43 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:18,320 stuff. But it was a lovely, lovely 44 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,360 place. From what I've read online, 45 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,880 because it was so small, the community feel was so strong. 46 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,200 It felt like just a massive group of friends living 47 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:29,000 together. Everyone knew everyone and 48 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,480 helped each other. So it was a lovely place for 49 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,080 Bobby to grow up and she was a very, very happy child. 50 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,680 She had a very happy childhood. Apparently she was like the 51 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,880 smiliest little kid you've ever seen. 52 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,680 She was a proper ray of sunshine, always positive. 53 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,760 She was a little bit shy, especially with people that 54 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,480 didn't know. But once Bobby got to know 55 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,880 someone, she was, she was a hoot. 56 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,120 She was, she seemed like a really energetic, like bouncing 57 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:56,360 off the walls kind of little kid. 58 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,000 And she was known to be very, very nurturing and caring and 59 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,720 kind. She had just this really like 60 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,720 sweet soft quality to her. She was, she was a proper softy. 61 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,880 And this came out in so many different ways. 62 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,200 She was super, super affectionate with her family. 63 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,480 She loved animals. She always wanted to be caring 64 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,840 for animals. She just had a lot of love to 65 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,560 did this little girl. When Bobby moved up to high 66 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:23,240 school she met a boy called Zeb and immediately she had a huge 67 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,800 crush on him. And good news, Zeb had a crush 68 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,120 on her too. The two of them flirted. 69 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,360 They ended up getting into a relationship that they stayed in 70 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,080 for the rest of their time in school and shortly after 71 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,120 graduating the two of them got married. 72 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:37,840 They got their own place together. 73 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,800 They were just super excited to be spending the rest of their 74 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,720 lives together. They both went out and got their 75 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,560 first jobs. They were, they were starting to 76 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,480 make it in the world to by each other's side. 77 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,000 The two of them really, really loved dogs. 78 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,640 This was something that they bonded over. 79 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,120 This was something that they knew they wanted for their 80 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:55,760 family. They knew they wanted loads of 81 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,960 dogs, specifically rat terriers. That was their breed, that they, 82 00:03:59,960 --> 00:04:02,000 they were just obsessed with rat terriers. 83 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,040 So when they moved out, they did they adopted their own rat 84 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,760 terriers. I don't know how many. 85 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,080 They at least had two because they planned on breeding them. 86 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,840 They planned on, you know, encouraging them to make 87 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,520 puppies. In fact, they made this breeding 88 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,360 like like a little small business for them to run from 89 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,880 their home. They would advertise the puppy 90 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,760 litters online and get people to come and buy them. 91 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,760 Both of them ran the business together. 92 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:29,160 But as far as I'm aware, Bobby Jo kind of had a lead role in 93 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,360 it. She went and made an account on 94 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,440 a forum like a dog breeder forum and she made an account 95 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,880 specifically on the rat terrier part of the forum called Rat a 96 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:39,960 Chatter. I love that. 97 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,360 I think that's really funny. So she was talking on this whole 98 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,960 dog breeder forum, but specifically in the rat terrier 99 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,440 one because that's, that's the kind of dog that she had. 100 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,480 The conversation was mainly revolving around rat terriers 101 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,320 and the and the new puppies. But every now and again, users 102 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,920 on this website would kind of swerve off topic and talk about 103 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,480 their lives and they all kind of got to know each other. 104 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,080 They all made friends ish, like Internet friends anyway, through 105 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,000 these forums and they'd ask for updates on each other's lives 106 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:06,520 when they saw each other posting. 107 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,360 The conversation was mainly about dogs, but you know, it was 108 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,960 just, it was just people being nice to each other as well. 109 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,480 And Bobby was having a great time. 110 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,840 The breeding business was doing pretty well and she was finding 111 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:19,480 out loads of information about rat terriers online because she 112 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,800 was so, so into this breed. They wanted to like breed them 113 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,080 full time, I believe. So, yeah, everything was going 114 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,280 well. They both had jobs and then they 115 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:30,160 had this breeding business and everything was going great. 116 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,640 And then things got even better in 2004 when Bobby Jo found out 117 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,760 that she was pregnant and the two of them were absolutely 118 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:39,680 elated. They found out that they were 119 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,640 having a baby girl and they were just so excited to start their 120 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:44,720 family. All of their family was super 121 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,920 excited as well to have a new baby. 122 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,600 When Bobby was about halfway through her pregnancy, she 123 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,000 decided to leave work. I think it was maternity leave, 124 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,920 I think she was going back, but she decided to kind of like 125 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,640 finish her work early so that she could come home and do the 126 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,640 breeding business at home during the day while she was on 127 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,760 maternity leave. It worked out great because 128 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,240 they'd actually just had another litter of rat terrier puppies, 129 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,560 so it was perfect. Bobby could have more time off 130 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,960 work, more time to be able to message potential customers 131 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,800 about the puppies. So in December of 2004, Bobby Jo 132 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,280 is 8 months pregnant and she's also just turned 23. 133 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,320 Around this time as well she was placing in rata chatter saying 134 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:26,200 that her puppies had just had a new litter. 135 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,440 Well her dogs, not the puppies, her dogs had had puppies and 136 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,400 they were available for sale. She was saying she was happy to 137 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,040 have people round at her house to come and visit the puppies 138 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,760 during the day because she was pregnant. 139 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,440 She was on maternity leave so she was free anytime. 140 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,240 December 16th 2004 was the same as any other day. 141 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,640 Zeb went off to work as he did every single single day, and 142 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,960 Bobby Jo stayed home, you know, doing the rat the rat terrier 143 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,840 business. I nearly said the rat business, 144 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:54,520 the rat terrier business. There were dogs. 145 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:55,920 You know, she was just chilling at home. 146 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,960 At this point, all her family knew that she was on maternity 147 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,520 leave, so they would come and visit her at different times 148 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,400 just so that she wasn't lonely during the day while Zeb was at 149 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,640 work. So that afternoon, Bobby Jo's 150 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,480 mother, Becky, decides that she's going to drop by the house 151 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,920 and just just sit and have a drink with her daughter, you 152 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,000 know, catch up kind of a surprise visit. 153 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,800 So she goes down to the house, knocks on the door, and no one's 154 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:19,960 answering. I believe the door was unlocked. 155 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,240 So her mother just kind of tried the door and it opened. 156 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,680 So she walked in, and she called Bobby's name, as she did, to 157 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,360 alert her that it was only her mother walking in. 158 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,280 It wasn't like an intruder. But as Becky entered the home, 159 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,200 she found the most horrifying scene. 160 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,080 Her own daughter was laying on the floor in front of her, 161 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,680 obviously already dead, and her body was just covered in blood. 162 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,800 And it was clear where all of this blood was coming from as 163 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,840 well. Her mother said it looked as if 164 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,120 her stomach had exploded. Her mother called for police and 165 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,120 an ambulance as quick as she possibly could. 166 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,120 They rushed down to the scene. But as soon as paramedics got to 167 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,320 work on Bobby Joe, they realized that there was number chance 168 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,080 they'd be able to revive her. And so she was transported to 169 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,560 hospital and pronounced dead. But what was even more 170 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:11,240 horrifying, her baby was gone. Her unborn baby that was still 171 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,320 inside her womb was stolen. It was missing. 172 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,400 And her autopsy found that she'd actually been alive when this 173 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,440 huge wound was made on her stomach to literally cut her 174 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,360 baby out of her belly. They think she was alive. 175 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,680 She might have possibly been unconscious, but she regained 176 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,039 consciousness at some point. So she was alive and conscious 177 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,720 with this huge wound in her stomach. 178 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:40,559 So now police had the most brutal and unique cases they 179 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,640 have ever come across. This is a young woman that was 180 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,400 found murdered and mutilated in her own home and her baby is 181 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,760 stolen. There is a missing baby, an 182 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,720 abducted baby. Someone had physically taken 183 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,080 this baby. And so the murder investigation 184 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,560 was semi separate to the missing persons investigation because 185 00:08:59,560 --> 00:09:03,320 Bobby Jo was 8 months pregnant and at 8 months your baby has 186 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,600 quite a good chance of surviving being born even though it is a 187 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,920 bit. That being said, they don't know 188 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:14,280 how well this this DIY at home C-section was done on Bobby Jo 189 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,840 so they didn't know if the baby had health complications. 190 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,200 This baby could have survived this, but there was a chance 191 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,000 that it might not. There was a chance that this 192 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,440 baby might need urgent medical attention in order to survive 193 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,760 the birth that they'd had. So police knew they needed to 194 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,920 find this baby fast. There was a debate within the 195 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,400 police force on whether they should send out an Amber Alert 196 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,000 for this baby. Because if you're unaware, an 197 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,280 umbrella is the system in America for when a child goes 198 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,520 missing. Everyone in that area will get 199 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,400 like a text on their phone, a notification of some sort 200 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,280 basically saying this child is missing. 201 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,880 This is what they look like. This is the circumstance we 202 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,440 believe is going on. You know, maybe this is a car 203 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,840 that was seen. Just any information that police 204 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,080 have is immediately sent out to everyone so that everyone is 205 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,400 aware and they can be on the lookout for this child. 206 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,480 Problem being with this case, it was an unborn baby. 207 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,440 No one knows what this baby looks like because it has 208 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,160 literally been cut from its mother's womb, so there's no way 209 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,960 for police to be able to describe this newborn baby. 210 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,600 And besides, all newborn babies kind of look the same, so all 211 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,600 they could really say is newborn baby. 212 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,640 This case was just so different to anything they'd ever 213 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,720 experienced before, and so some people on the police force were 214 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,160 not entirely on board with sending out an umbrella for an 215 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:33,720 unborn but now born baby. Luckily, the other police 216 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,440 managed to persuade them to send out the umbrella anyway. 217 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,840 Literally just said newborn baby. 218 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,760 And luckily one of the neighbors that lived near Bobby Jo had 219 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,760 noticed a red Toyota Corolla parked outside her house earlier 220 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,040 that day. Presumably it must have belonged 221 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,200 to her attacker. It must have, because the 222 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,040 neighbor had never seen a red Toyota Corolla outside their 223 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,360 house before, ever. So they knew it wasn't friends 224 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,480 or family. So that was put on the umbrella 225 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:00,160 as well. And that was literally it. 226 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,680 Literally all they had was newborn baby red Toyota Corolla, 227 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:05,800 and that's all that people could be on the lookout for. 228 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,400 So police wait for any potential leads to come in from that Amber 229 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,880 Alert as the crime scene was searched. 230 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:16,240 And this is where all the gory details start to piece together. 231 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,080 So if you remember, I said when they did the autopsy, they 232 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,680 believed that Bobby was alive when her stomach was cut open. 233 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:25,480 They think she could have been unconscious, but then that she 234 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,240 regained consciousness once she had the wound. 235 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,720 Now, the reason they think this is because of blood evidence at 236 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,080 the scene. Bobby Jo had blood all over the 237 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,960 bottoms of her feet, although she was found laying down South. 238 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,240 This suggests that she had been at one point stood up in her own 239 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,640 blood, standing in her blood. And her blood was even found on 240 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,840 her, under her toenails. So she was stood like in a 241 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,360 puddle of it or splashed in it. And they believed that there was 242 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,600 a struggle in this hallway because there were smears of 243 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,120 blood. There were like swells in the 244 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,440 blood where people's feet had like slipped. 245 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,400 So they knew that they'd been a struggle with the attacker. 246 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,640 She'd fought for her life as best as she could. 247 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:08,360 And there were some other pieces of evidence that indicated A 248 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,240 struggle. Bobby's fingers were found with 249 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,720 long strands of blonde hair intertwined between them, as if 250 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,200 she'd been like, pulling someone's hair. 251 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,320 And this gave them quite good information that her attacker 252 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,280 potentially had long blonde hair. 253 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,720 Bobby Jo was brunette, so of course these hairs weren't her 254 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,520 own, and there was enough of them wrapped between her fingers 255 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,800 that it was significant. Like she this definitely must 256 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,520 have been her attacker's hair. But one thing that paramedics 257 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,680 just could not work out was how much of the attack Bobby Jo was 258 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,160 conscious or unconscious for. They don't know if she'd passed 259 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,880 out for like a split second or a few seconds, or if she'd been 260 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,600 out called for like 10 minutes and then regained consciousness. 261 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,640 They really don't know. But the reason they know that 262 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,280 she'd passed out, by the way, I forgot to explain this, the 263 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,120 reason they know she passed out was because she had very clear 264 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,560 strangulation marks around her neck, mostly around the front of 265 00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:00,960 her neck. So they think that she'd 266 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,720 actually been strangled with a rope from behind. 267 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,040 Her attacker had wrapped around her neck and just pulled it. 268 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,760 They think the attacker strangled Bobby Jo until she 269 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:10,680 passed out. Maybe the attacker thought 270 00:13:10,680 --> 00:13:13,640 they'd strangled her to death, or maybe they they knew they'd 271 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,440 just made her unconscious. Either way, now Bobby Jo had 272 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,000 fallen to the ground and that was when this DIY C-section took 273 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,520 place, which, by the way, was done with one of her own kitchen 274 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,200 knives. The attacker had gone into the 275 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,080 kitchen and picked which one of Bobby Jo's own knives they were 276 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,960 going to use to cut her baby out of her stomach. 277 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,600 I know that stomach is incorrect. 278 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,200 Biological terminal, but you know what I meant by that. 279 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,240 So one thing that police found quite interesting about this 280 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,640 case was that the front door was unlocked. 281 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,280 There were no signs of forced entry, so it appeared that Bobby 282 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,040 Jo's attacker had gotten in the house quite easily. 283 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,040 Maybe they'd let themselves in, like maybe the door was unlocked 284 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,200 and they let themselves in, or maybe Bobby Jo unlocked the door 285 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,640 for them and welcomed them into her home. 286 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,840 Perhaps that same day that Bobby Jo's body was discovered, news 287 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,400 of her murder and the kidnap of her unborn child started 288 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,400 spreading like wildfire. It was on every news channel. 289 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,920 It was all over the Internet, and it made its way back to her 290 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,280 rat, a chatter forum that she had some good friends on by now. 291 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,840 And everyone was so, so devastated to hear this news. 292 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,200 Not only because this was a friend that they'd lost, like 293 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,240 they were feeling this, this loss and this grief, but they 294 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,920 were also just so upset because Bobby Jo seemed so excited about 295 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,240 her pregnancy. She was so excited to meet her 296 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:35,240 baby girl. She was so excited to have a 297 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,240 family with Zeb. And now how it was all gone and 298 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,080 all of her friends saw how much that meant to her. 299 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,240 She was so close to having that and someone had just ripped away 300 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,720 every chance that she had to have that. 301 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,840 So people in this Ratta Chatter forum are posting their 302 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,800 condolences and grieving messages. 303 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,440 They're going back through their old messages with Bobby Jo and 304 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,240 reading them. And that was when 1 user on the 305 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,640 website noticed something quite interesting in the public 306 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,320 comments of one of the posts on Ratta Chatter. 307 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,120 Bobby was advertising her new litter of puppies and in the 308 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,520 comments underneath that she had planned to meet up with a 309 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,040 potential buyer on the day of her murder. 310 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,720 The user that was interested in coming to see the rat terrier 311 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,840 puppies was named Darlene Fisher. 312 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:23,840 Her username was Fisher for Kids. 313 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,560 And yeah, this this interaction didn't seem weird. 314 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,880 It didn't seem suspicious. It was just two women discussing 315 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,400 the potential purchase of a puppy. 316 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,160 But what was odd was the timing. It just so happened to have been 317 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,160 planned on the day that Bobby Jo was murdered. 318 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,640 And so this other user that saw this conversation decided to 319 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,720 turn it into police because, well, obviously that could be a 320 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,280 really important lead. So one of the first things that 321 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,320 police did was seize every single one of Bobby Jo's 322 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,160 electronics, her phone, her laptop, and look through every 323 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,920 single conversation that she had had with this Darlene woman. 324 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,320 Police found all the messages and they seemed pretty normal. 325 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,400 They were just talking about buying a puppy and they'd agreed 326 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,360 on a time and a date, which was the day that she was murdered. 327 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,440 Bobby had given her the full exact address of her home. 328 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,120 And if this was the case, then that means that Bobby Jo would 329 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,640 have voluntarily let this woman into her house, would have 330 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,000 unlocked the door for her and welcomed her in. 331 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,640 So that explains why there would be no signs of forced entry if 332 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,040 this woman is responsible. So now it's all lining up for 333 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:28,600 police. They know that they need to 334 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,080 track down this Darlene Fisher woman. 335 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,040 And so the next thing they do is try and track her IP address, 336 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,720 which was 3 hours away in Kansas. 337 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,240 And immediately this was kind of odd to police because in the 338 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,960 messages between Bobby Jo and Darlene Fisher when they've been 339 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,320 planning to meet up to, to talk about the dogs, Darlene was 340 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,800 saying, oh, that's great. I only live 30 minutes away from 341 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,560 your address, but this IP address is about 3 hours away. 342 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,200 Police actually found out quite a bit of information about 343 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,320 Darlene Fisher just from the messages that she and Bobby had 344 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,080 been sending between each other. They found out that Darlene was 345 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,880 also pregnant and she was around the same length of time a lot as 346 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,160 long as Bobby was. They were both about 8 months 347 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,960 actually. I think Darlene had her due date 348 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,480 just before Bobby's. But Darlene had quite a 349 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,240 traumatizing pregnancy. She'd been telling Bobby that 350 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,720 she was pregnant with twins, but one of them had actually passed 351 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,040 away a couple of months prior as well. 352 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,280 So she'd been carrying one of her deceased children in her 353 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,360 belly. She had to carry it to full term 354 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:32,200 with the other child. She couldn't give birth to the 355 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,560 deceased 1 and and keep the living one in there. 356 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,440 So she just had to keep them both in there and until her due 357 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,720 date when she would finally give birth to one living child and 358 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,960 one dead child. I can't imagine how traumatizing 359 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,880 that is to, to have prepared yourself to have two babies and 360 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,280 to be over the moon and then for one of them to die inside you 361 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,000 and for you to have to continue to carry that around for months. 362 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,040 I mean, you, you wouldn't really be able to be happy about about 363 00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:59,440 the other child at that point, would you? 364 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,600 Apparently it had been a huge, huge ordeal for Darlene to go 365 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,440 through. However, some of the Ratta 366 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,720 chatter uses had their suspicions about, well, all of 367 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,200 it, but mainly about whether Darlene was even pregnant at 368 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,720 all. Because when she would post 369 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,760 pictures on Ratta Chatter with her, like holding the dogs or at 370 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,240 these different dog shows, she never seemed to look any 371 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,560 different. Her belly wasn't growing. 372 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,720 She just, I don't know where are the babies and you're pregnant 373 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,240 with twins as well. Like surely her bump would be 374 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,440 pretty big. None of them ever really 375 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,760 mentioned anything though. None of them, like, called her 376 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,280 out on it, mainly because she'd been posting about losing one of 377 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,120 her children. No one wanted to be that guy. 378 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,280 That's like, hi grieving, devastated mother. 379 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:43,200 I think you're lying. I don't think you're even 380 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,000 pregnant. No one wanted to, no one. 381 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,720 Like it's not worth it. No one wanted to further upset 382 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,640 this woman that says she's lost her baby. 383 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,560 So everyone just kind of took her word for it. 384 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,640 And yeah, no one, no one said anything. 385 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,640 No one asked her. But now that police were finding 386 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,160 this out, it just made everything seem even more weird. 387 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,600 And they felt like they were honestly on the right tracks. 388 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,800 This seemed like quite the story. 389 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,720 And so they managed to locate the exact place in Kansas where 390 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,480 her IP address was being used from. 391 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,120 And they went down to that address to go and speak to Miss 392 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,800 Darlene Fisher. When police arrived at this 393 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,680 address, they immediately saw parked in the driveway a red 394 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,080 Toyota Corolla, the exact same type of car that was seen parked 395 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,960 outside Bobby Justin, it's house on the day that she was murdered 396 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,160 was now parked outside this other address where they believe 397 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,320 the suspect lives. So police stormed inside that 398 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,880 house to find a woman, presumably Darlene Fisher, 399 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,520 sitting on the sofa in the living room with a newborn baby 400 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,080 cradled in her arms. So police obviously asked her 401 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,800 whose baby is that? And she said it's it's mine. 402 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,320 I gave birth to her a couple of days ago. 403 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,840 She said it was a baby girl called Abigail. 404 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,160 But police had good reason to believe that this was Bobby Jost 405 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,200 in its baby. And so they took the baby offer, 406 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,800 arrested this woman that they believed to be Darlene Fisher, 407 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,920 and they sent this baby to the nearest hospital to be checked 408 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,480 over. The baby seemed to be completely 409 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,880 happy and healthy. It had a little cut on its face, 410 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,840 I think, like on its eyelid. But other than that, totally 411 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,040 healthy, totally fine. They were going to keep the baby 412 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,200 in the hospital for a little while just so that they could 413 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,680 continue to check it and monitor how everything was going. 414 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,440 But. Seemed fine. 415 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,560 Meanwhile, police had got Darlene Fisher back to the 416 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,800 police station. And that was when they realized 417 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,960 that of course, Darlene Fisher doesn't exist. 418 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,160 That was a fake name used by this woman, Lisa Marie 419 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,720 Montgomery. But Lisa insisted that even 420 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,680 though she used a fake name online, everything else about 421 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,760 her story and about her child that they'd just taken off her 422 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:45,560 was true. She said that she had been 423 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,360 pregnant with twins. She'd lost one of them and that 424 00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,120 was the remaining one, her baby girl that she'd given birth to a 425 00:20:51,120 --> 00:20:53,360 few days prior. She said that all of that was 426 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,160 still true. She just used a fake name 427 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,560 online. But police were skeptical about 428 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,680 Lisa Montgomery. I mean, of course, all the 429 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,280 previous evidence that they collected still stands. 430 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,720 The red Toyota Corolla was still parked outside Bobby Jo's house 431 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,720 on the day she was murdered. And even worse, actually, now 432 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,320 they know that Lisa Montgomery used a fake name to go and 433 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,360 purchase those puppies. That seemed odd. 434 00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:18,720 Why do you need a fake name on a on a dog breeding discussion for 435 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:20,080 him? Like, that's like one of the 436 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,720 last things you'd need a sued an info. 437 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,160 So police were listening to Lisa tell this story about how she'd 438 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,320 actually given birth to this baby girl a couple of days ago. 439 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,480 And they just felt like it was a cover story. 440 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,360 Everything just seemed a little bit odd. 441 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,800 And so police started digging into it, starting with Lisa's 442 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,280 husband, Kevin. They wanted to know what he 443 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,200 thought about about the delivery of the child. 444 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,400 He said that he was at work that day when he got a text from his 445 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,600 wife Lisa, letting him know that she had gone into labour. 446 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,440 She'd gone into like, surprise labour. 447 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:50,880 She'd just been out shopping one day. 448 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,440 Her water's broken in the store and so she just like took 449 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,440 herself off to the nearest women's centre and gave birth to 450 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,440 this baby girl. The next time he heard from 451 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560 Lisa, it was a considerable amount of time later and she 452 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,640 told him that she was at a fish restaurant, a Long John 453 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,440 Silver's. Is that what it's called, like a 454 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,840 fish and chip place? I think she was at a Long John 455 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,760 Silver's restaurant with their newborn baby and she wanted him 456 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,800 to come pick her up. Why are you not at the hospital 457 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:17,560 still? Why? 458 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,160 She's taking a newborn baby straight from the hospital 459 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:21,720 straight to a fish and chip shop. 460 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,560 So anyway, Kevin Montgomery goes and picks up their two teenage 461 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,400 sons. I think they're Lisa's sons from 462 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,760 a previous relationship. Goes and picks up these two 463 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,840 teenage boys anyway and takes them to Long John Silver's to go 464 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,480 and meet their new little sister. 465 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,000 So yeah, everyone's, everyone's gasped about this baby anyway. 466 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,880 Everyone's really excited. They all believe that this is 467 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,200 Lisa's baby. They believe that this is a new 468 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,640 addition to the family. Kevin said that they spent the 469 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,520 rest of the night on the 16th of December just driving to every 470 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,440 family's house, every friend's house, showing them the new 471 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,280 baby, letting them meet their new baby girl because they were 472 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,880 over the moon and everyone else was over the moon as well. 473 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,840 So police pointed out to Kevin that he didn't actually witness 474 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,240 the birth of this baby. And he said no, you're right, I 475 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,640 didn't. I wasn't there when this baby 476 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,000 was born. So I can't say for sure that it 477 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:16,440 came out of my wife. But he wholeheartedly believed 478 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,280 his wife when she said that it was theirs. 479 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,720 He had no reason to not believe her. 480 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,440 I mean, other than the fact that she wasn't really growing, but I 481 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,400 don't know, maybe she could have just been a not much of a 482 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:27,440 shower. Maybe she. 483 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,800 And apparently she wore baggy clothes quite a lot throughout 484 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,640 the pregnancy. So I don't know. 485 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,600 For some reason, he did believe her though, and so did the sons. 486 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,280 Everyone did. Literally everyone did. 487 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,840 So anyway, at this point in time, police have Lisa 488 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,560 Montgomery in an interrogation room and they start just 489 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,360 confronting her with every piece of evidence that they had. 490 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,440 Like, your car was literally outside the crime scene at the 491 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,560 time of the murder and she's looking at all this evidence and 492 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,680 she can't fight it any longer. And she just cracks and 493 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,080 confesses to everything. She confessed to tricking Bobby 494 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,080 Jo, to attacking her, to murdering her, to stealing her 495 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,280 baby directly from her womb, performing this DIY at home 496 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,880 caesarean section on this unconscious woman, stealing the 497 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,880 baby, and then pretending like it was hers to everyone, even to 498 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,800 her own husband. He believed that this was his 499 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,400 child. So before we go into Lisa 500 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,040 Montgomery's version of events and what she told police and the 501 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,600 prior planning and everything that went into this sinister 502 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,040 plan, let's talk a little bit more about who Lisa Montgomery 503 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,160 was because I think you need to know quite a bit about her past 504 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:42,280 to understand her in this case. Notice I said understand, not 505 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,360 defend. I don't want this to sound like 506 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,760 I'm defending her at all, but sometimes murderers do have very 507 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,680 sad lives and I think it's important to to discuss them and 508 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,600 to speak about potential issues that might arise from their 509 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,240 childhood. So let's go. 510 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:03,880 Born on February 27th, 1968, Lisa had a hard life right from 511 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:05,960 the off. Her mother was addicted to 512 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,440 alcohol and she never stopped drinking all the way through the 513 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,720 pregnancy she was drinking heavily and so when Lisa was 514 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,840 born, she had a lot of complications due to her 515 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,320 mother's drinking. She had fetal alcohol syndrome, 516 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,040 which is usually characterized by a specific facial features. 517 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,760 I'll put a diagram on screen right now. 518 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,720 A lot of kids that are born with fetal alcohol syndrome tend to 519 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,040 look alike because they have a lot of these features. 520 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,080 And in some severe cases, like in the case of Lisa 521 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,200 Montgomery's, hers was very, very severe. 522 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,760 It can leave the children with a level of brain damage. 523 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,280 In Lisa's case, she suffered with communication and speech 524 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,520 issues, as well as like learning issues and memory loss in 525 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,040 school. So school was really, really 526 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,800 hard for her. Yeah, like I said, it was. 527 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,520 It was an incredibly severe case of fetal alcohol syndrome and it 528 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,160 affected her for the rest of her life. 529 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,920 She always had these communication, speech, memory, 530 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,360 learning problems. So immediately, as soon as she 531 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,640 was born, there's things that Lisa Montgomery is going to have 532 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,160 to deal with in her life. And on top of these medical 533 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,960 issues that Lisa had, she also faced an incredibly abusive 534 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,560 childhood at the hands of both her mum and her dad. 535 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,160 They would do some awful, awful things to Lisa as punishment. 536 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,720 They would whip her. They would put tape over a man 537 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,840 so she couldn't talk or breathe. They would strip her naked and 538 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,160 lock her out of the house like outside in all these like harsh 539 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,160 weathers. They would make her take ice 540 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,160 cold showers. They did all sorts of awful, 541 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,440 awful things. And actually, I think Lisa had a 542 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,080 couple of siblings, or step siblings actually, and at one 543 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,800 point her mother did. This is one of the most awful 544 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,480 things her mother ever did. She sat all the kids down in the 545 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,040 living room. And I think she was already 546 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,400 angry at something else at this point in time. 547 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,760 Her mother, she was angry quite a lot. 548 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,120 She sat all the kids down in the living room, went and got a 549 00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:59,760 shovel and the family dog, brought the dog into the living 550 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,800 room and forced all of the children to watch as she beat 551 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,680 the dog to death. She murdered the family dog in 552 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,680 front of all these very, very young children and forced them 553 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,640 to watch it. At this point, Lisa is not even 554 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,560 10 years old. I don't know how old she was. 555 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,040 I want to say maybe about 6 at this point in time. 556 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,680 And then when Lisa was around 9 or 10 years old, her mother and 557 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,480 father divorced and her mother very quickly found a new man. 558 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,680 But when her new stepfather moved in with them, he very 559 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,160 quickly began sexually abusing Lisa Montgomery. 560 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,360 He would regularly take her out to the caravan that was parked 561 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:39,280 in the back garden and he would rape her repeatedly. 562 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,360 Lisa was so obviously distressed by all of this abuse that she 563 00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:48,560 was facing that at the age of 11/11, she turned to alcohol to 564 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,000 try to soothe the pain that she was feeling. 565 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,440 She became an alcoholic before she was even a teenager. 566 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,520 So this abuse continued for a couple of years and then her 567 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,120 stepfather decided to get his friends involved. 568 00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:07,080 He would invite his grown adult friends round to the caravan to 569 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,160 take turns raping his stepdaughter. 570 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,400 And what was even worse, he actually started charging the 571 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,760 money for it. They were making money. 572 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,200 Well, actually I don't even think it was him that was asking 573 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,880 for the money. I think it was Lisa's mother. 574 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,400 Her own mother knew that this was going on, knew that her 575 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,400 husband had been raping her daughter for years, and now he 576 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,320 was getting all his friends involved and she didn't actually 577 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,320 care. She didn't care to save her 578 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,840 daughter or to stop this. All she cared about was, well, 579 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,520 they can't do it for free, let's charge them for it. 580 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,360 How sick and twisted is that? I honestly haven't heard 581 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,000 anything like this in quite a while. 582 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,120 We haven't covered anything so heinous. 583 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,200 And these men wouldn't just rape Lisa. 584 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,600 It wasn't just forced prostitution. 585 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,480 These men would also beat her. They would tie her up, they 586 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,560 would torture her, they would urinate on her, they would force 587 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,280 her to eat different things, like this was torture. 588 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,240 Finally, after three long years of this abuse, when Lisa was 589 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,200 aged 14, she finally got up the courage to go and tell her 590 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,040 mother what was going on. And poor Lisa didn't know that 591 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,960 her mum had been in on it the whole time. 592 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,560 She had no idea that her mother knew. 593 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,360 She was probably thinking, well, if my mum knew, she would save 594 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,360 me, right? She had no idea that her mother 595 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,840 had been collecting money from her rapists in order for them to 596 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,640 do this to her. So yeah, Lisa went to her mother 597 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,160 on this particular day, thinking that this was going to be the 598 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,640 end, thinking that her mum was going to save her. 599 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,440 She went and broke down to her mum, told her everything. 600 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,640 She was sobbing. And then her mother pulled out a 601 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,880 gun, pointed it at Lisa and told her not to tell anyone what she 602 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,880 had just said or she would kill her. 603 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,200 She was not allowed to tell anyone what was going on at 604 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,240 home. And so she didn't, well, she 605 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,360 kept it to herself for a little while, but towards the end she 606 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,960 was thinking, well, really, how bad could it be if they did kill 607 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,000 me? Like they I either tell someone 608 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,200 and I managed to escape or I tell someone and they kill me. 609 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,720 Either way, it's better than what she was going through at 610 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,280 that point in time. And so Lisa decides to try and 611 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,160 tell a couple more people. So she mentioned it, but I don't 612 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,160 think she really got into detail and I don't think some people 613 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,280 believed her. She, he even mentioned it to one 614 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,320 of her cousins who worked in law enforcement and nothing was ever 615 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,760 done about it. All these people that she told, 616 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,280 I say all these people, I think it was like 2 or maybe three 617 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,000 more other than her mum. But no one ever did anything. 618 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:33,480 And the abuse just continued. Finally, about a year later, 619 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,920 when Lisa was 15 years old, her mother divorced her stepfather 620 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,160 and Lisa thought that the constant sexual abuse would 621 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,880 finally be over if he wasn't around. 622 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,360 There was no one to to prostitute her out like that. 623 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,080 But even though the actual acts of sexual abuse were temporarily 624 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,480 over the toll that they had taken on Lisa Montgomery's 625 00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,280 mental state, it was awful. This girl was left with severe, 626 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,400 severe PTSD. Like I said, she was an 627 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,920 alcoholic to deal with it since the age of 11. 628 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,360 She had been an alcoholic for years now and just when Lisa 629 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,320 thought that she was safe, her mum got a new husband and the 630 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,000 exact same thing happened again. And this time I, I think it was 631 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,840 Lisa's mother that suggested this to her partner. 632 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,680 She must have brought it up saying, oh, we did this before 633 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,720 me and my ex did this with my daughter. 634 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,200 Do you want to set it up again with me? 635 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,560 Let's start up a prostitution service. 636 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,040 So they did. It was all set up again and her 637 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,520 new stepdad started bringing new men around. 638 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,240 It was the exact same torture that she'd always been subjected 639 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,600 to. And this constant abuse of Lisa 640 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,200 Montgomery had really taken a toll on her. 641 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,840 Just as a person, as as a student, she would turn up to 642 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,880 school. Her grades were horrific. 643 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,360 She looked horrific. I mean, I don't mean that in a 644 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,440 mean way, but she'd stopped showering. 645 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,160 She'd stopped brushing her hair. She smelt really bad. 646 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,520 Her clothes were dirty and ripped and and didn't fit her. 647 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,400 She barely had any friends. She could barely socialize with 648 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,720 anyone. She was so anxious and shy. 649 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,120 She was almost mute. And so at first, teachers 650 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,080 thought the best solution to this would be to transfer her to 651 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,960 like a special educational needs school, but nothing unchanged. 652 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,840 And so that told teachers that the problem must be at home with 653 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,200 Lisa Montgomery. It wasn't her schooling that was 654 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,920 the issue. And actually, a few of the 655 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,600 teachers in this new school did suspect that Lisa was being 656 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,560 abused at home. They saw a lot of telltale 657 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,800 signs, such as letting personal hygiene go. 658 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,080 Victims of abuse, particularly sexual sexual abuse, will 659 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,160 intentionally, whether it's conscious or subconscious, they 660 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,160 will let go of their personal hygiene. 661 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,880 Stop showering, stop making them themselves look appealing and 662 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,960 attractive in hopes that their abuser wouldn't want to abuse 663 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,800 them if they looked so bad, you know? 664 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,800 And they thought that that was what Lisa was doing, yet no one 665 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,880 ever said anything. It's so frustrating how many 666 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,840 times this girl tried to call out for help, tried to tell 667 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,240 people what was going on, made it very clear in her appearance 668 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,080 what was going on. So many people knew, so many 669 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,680 people noticed, yet no one ever did anything to save this little 670 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,120 girl. At the age of 18, Lisa was 671 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,920 forced to marry a man named Carl. 672 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,120 Forced by her mother to marry this man. 673 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,160 And this wasn't just any man, this was her stepbrother. 674 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,920 She was forced to marry her stepbrother, who was equally as 675 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,680 abusive to her as her mother had been, as all of her previous 676 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,560 stepfathers had been. She could just not escape this 677 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,760 absolute horror that surrounded her at all times from every 678 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,000 person she ever met. She was abused and tortured. 679 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,840 He would beat her every single day. 680 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,000 He would demand sex from her whenever he wanted and if she 681 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,880 dared disagree or turn him down, he would just rape her. 682 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,640 He would beat her. He was awful with this woman 683 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,520 over the years as a result of repeatedly raping her. 684 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,880 Carl and Lisa had four children together and after that, after 685 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,720 the 4th child, Carl was done. He didn't want any more babies 686 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,040 with her, but he didn't want to use protection either. 687 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:13,560 No, absolutely not. He forced her to get sterilized. 688 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,600 He forced her to go have an operation, get her tubes tied so 689 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,679 that she couldn't get pregnant and he wouldn't have to use 690 00:34:19,679 --> 00:34:21,960 protection. She was in her early 20s at this 691 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,760 point. She had had these four children 692 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,400 in such quick succession she must have been like mid 20s and 693 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,560 she's her husband is forcing her to be sterilized. 694 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,760 As I'm sure you can imagine, at this point in Lisa's life, her 695 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,000 mental health is an absolute rock bottom. 696 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:41,159 She has faced the most horrifying torture and abuse 697 00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,120 from every single person in her life. 698 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,600 She's never been able to trust anyone, she's never felt safe 699 00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,719 with anyone. And this started to manifest 700 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,880 itself now that she was in her 20s in in quite erratic 701 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,800 behavior. She was having symptoms of 702 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,760 mental illness. I don't know exactly what they 703 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,840 mean by erratic behavior, I couldn't find any specific 704 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,120 examples. But what I do know is that it 705 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:09,480 got way too much for her husband and stepbrother Carl, and so he 706 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:14,040 eventually divorced her. So this was a win and a loss for 707 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,440 Lisa Montgomery. Of course it was a win in that 708 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,000 she was finally free from her abuser. 709 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,320 This was the first time in a whole entire life that she would 710 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,960 be able to live her life without constant abuse. 711 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,200 However, him leaving her meant that Lisa was now homeless and 712 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,480 severely in poverty. She had no money, she had no 713 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,080 job, she had nothing. She had no idea how she was 714 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:37,600 going to live. And honestly, honestly, I don't 715 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,840 know how she did. She must have just been bouncing 716 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,960 between shelters until eventually she met Kevin 717 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,680 Montgomery, the man that she was married to at the time of this 718 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,360 case. I don't know too much about 719 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,320 their specific marriage, but what I do know is that it was a 720 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,720 whole lot healthier than anything she had ever had. 721 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,640 And living with Kevin Montgomery really helped her life to to 722 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,040 settle down as much as it can. She was still very, very 723 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,600 mentally ill, but at least she had a little bit of stability, a 724 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,600 little bit of love in her life now. 725 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,400 Now this is where the murder plan comes in. 726 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,440 Lisa Montgomery, like I said, had her tubes tied. 727 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,840 She was sterilized when she was in her early 20s. 728 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,960 And now she's married to Kevin Montgomery and she really wants 729 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,480 a baby with him. She wants them to to be able to 730 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,480 create their own family, but she can't get pregnant, of course. 731 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,160 And with her very deteriorated mental state that she was 732 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,680 dealing with at this point, this LED Lisa to almost brainwash 733 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,640 herself into believing that she was actually pregnant. 734 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,440 So this gets a little bit confusing. 735 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,800 Stick with me. This is skipping ahead a little 736 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,360 bit. But in the aftermath of this 737 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,880 whole case, Lisa was diagnosed with pseudociasis. 738 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,960 I hope I'm saying that, right? But basically this is a 739 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,560 condition where the individual believes wholeheartedly that 740 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,240 they are pregnant. Some of them know that they're 741 00:36:57,240 --> 00:36:59,040 not pregnant. They know that they're not 742 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,560 pregnant. But they, they get like a lot of 743 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,600 the time they will get physical symptoms. 744 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,840 So they'll get like enlarged breasts, they'll put on a bit of 745 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,800 weight, even their stomach can swell sometimes. 746 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,720 Some of these women that get this actually look a couple of 747 00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,920 months pregnant even though scans are done, pregnancy tests 748 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,400 are done, they're not pregnant, but somehow they can have a 749 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,240 phantom pregnancy just by kind of like convincing themselves 750 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:25,600 that they are pregnant. Some of these women will also 751 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,840 get nauseous and vomit and mistake it for morning sickness. 752 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,040 Like they're getting like the whole 9 yards. 753 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,080 Some of them will have their menstrual cycle interrupted and 754 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,800 with a few of these symptoms together, of course you're going 755 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,840 to think you're pregnant. Like if you're throwing up on 756 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,120 mornings, your periods kind of stopped and your your stomach's 757 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,080 swollen. Of course, I think I'm pregnant 758 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,320 too. But the difference between this 759 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,000 is that the thoughts come first and the symptoms come second, 760 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,720 rather than the symptoms and then the thoughts. 761 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,480 So that's, that's the difference here. 762 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,520 There's actually been some cases of this that have been so severe 763 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,360 that these women have been having symptoms of phantom 764 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,120 pregnancy for months and months and months. 765 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,520 And it gets to a point where they actually think they're 766 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,640 having contractions, they get all the way to the hospital 767 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,560 thinking they're in labour, they go to the ward and then the 768 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,080 doctors are like, what's going on? 769 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,320 There's no baby in you, you're not in labour. 770 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,720 And that's how they find out that they're not pregnant 771 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:19,840 because they have been so convinced and they've been 772 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,480 getting a couple of symptoms here and there. 773 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,640 Like it's actually a bit crazy. This that like extent of it is 774 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,360 really, really rare. It's more so kind of the milder 775 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,880 symptoms that are more common, but it happens. 776 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,400 It seemed that this was what was happening to Lisa. 777 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,160 And I mean, later it was diagnosed. 778 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,280 So it was what was happening to Lisa by a Logically, she could 779 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,080 not conceive. She could not have a baby in her 780 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,720 belly yet. She was actually having a few 781 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:47,240 different physical symptoms. She'd gained a little bit of 782 00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:51,640 weight over the months and her belly had swollen slightly. 783 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,680 I don't know if it was the the weight gain or if it was like a 784 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,440 separate symptom, but she did actually maybe look a couple of 785 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,360 months pregnant. If she told you that she was 786 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,440 pregnant and then you looked at her belly, you would kind of 787 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,800 think, oh, OK, yeah. But I mean, just to look at her 788 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:07,400 just as a woman with the pregnancy out of your head, I 789 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,280 don't think you would look at her and think she's pregnant. 790 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,160 She's 8 months pregnant as well, no less, because that's what she 791 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,720 was telling people. But because she was having these 792 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:17,320 physical symptoms, the weight gain and, you know, slightly 793 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,240 swollen belly, people were believing her. 794 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,360 Her own husband was believing her. 795 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,480 Their pastor, the the pastor at their local church believed her. 796 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,080 In fact, the pastor at the church did actually question her 797 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,840 about it once. This is like one of the only 798 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,840 people that ever did question her about it. 799 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,520 He said that the baby seemed kind of small to be having a 800 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,000 baby that soon, like her bump seemed kind of small. 801 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,080 But Lisa just responded that she'd always had small babies 802 00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:42,440 because she'd had like 4 kids in the past, hadn't she? 803 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,040 And she said that all of her kids were tiny when they came 804 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:46,760 out and she never really showed that much. 805 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,080 And so the pasta, like, what's he going to do, argue with her 806 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,640 and say, I think you're lying. Like he just accepted it. 807 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,960 He was like, oh, OK, well, I enjoy your small baby, I guess. 808 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,080 So everyone in her life believed that she was pregnant. 809 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,760 And things only started to fall apart for Lisa Montgomery when 810 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,320 news of her pregnancy got back to her ex-husband, her 811 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,040 stepbrother as well, might I remind you that guy Carl, 812 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,680 obviously Carl knew damn well that Lisa Montgomery could not 813 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,080 get pregnant because he was the one that forced her to get 814 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,480 sterilized because he didn't want any more kids. 815 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,440 So. He knew that biologically this 816 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,080 can't be true, this is impossible, that she's pregnant. 817 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,080 And he decided that he was actually going to use this 818 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:30,680 against her because he wanted custody of their younger two 819 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,200 children. He had their older 2 and Lisa 820 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,440 had their younger 2 with Kevin Montgomery. 821 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,480 He wanted custody of these other two kids off of Lisa. 822 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,800 And so he started this court case and his plan was to kind of 823 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,600 use this lie against her and say, look, she's an unstable, 824 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:48,680 unfit mother. Look at her lying about this 825 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,920 pregnancy. It was going to work against 826 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,200 Lisa. And somehow Lisa Montgomery got 827 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,080 wind of the fact that Karl was going to try and use this 828 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,240 argument against her. And suddenly this struck fear 829 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:02,320 into her. And she's thinking, well, I need 830 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,600 it to be real now. I need a baby. 831 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,400 Bear in mind, by the way, even though she was suffering with 832 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,360 this psychological issue and the phantom pregnancy and stuff, she 833 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,120 knew that she wasn't pregnant. Like she she consciously knew 834 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,880 there was actually no baby in there. 835 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,280 So now she's trying to think of a way to actually get a baby. 836 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,520 She needs to prove that this pregnancy is real, even though 837 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,240 it's not. She needs to get hold of a baby 838 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,200 somehow. And that was when Lisa 839 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,600 Montgomery remembered a post that she had seen on Rata 840 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,200 Chatter not long ago of this young woman, Bobby Jo Stinnett, 841 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,280 talking about this fresh litter of puppies that they just had. 842 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,240 And she briefly mentioned in this post that she was pregnant 843 00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,560 and on maternity leave, so she was available anytime for people 844 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:45,880 to come around and see the puppies. 845 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,320 Lisa now knew that Bobby Jo was pregnant and she was far enough 846 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,960 along to be on maternity leave. This was the perfect victim and 847 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,800 it was also kind of perfect circumstances. 848 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:01,000 She would be able to literally enter into Bobby Jo's house just 849 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,680 by saying she wanted to have a look at the dogs. 850 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,560 She was interested in purchasing one of them. 851 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,680 So Lisa begins doing a little bit of research because she 852 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,120 knows that she is going to have to try and deliver this baby out 853 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,640 of Bobby Jo. So she starts Googling things 854 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:20,240 like home births and how to induce a baby, but it seems that 855 00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:22,920 the things she was finding on those searches weren't really 856 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,600 going to work for her. And so Lisa then starts 857 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,480 searching things about Caesarean sections, how to perform AC 858 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,920 section at home, things like that. 859 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,160 And when she was ready, when she was fully researched, Lisa 860 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,160 Montgomery starts posing as Darlene Fisher Fisher for kids 861 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,320 on the Ratat Chatter forum. She starts talking to Bobby Jo 862 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,120 saying that she's interested in these rat terrier puppies and 863 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,000 she would love to swing by the house and come and visit the 864 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,560 puppies. So the two of them agreed a date 865 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,920 and a time. December 16th, 2004, around 2:00 866 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,800 PM Bobby Jo sent her her full exact address so Lisa knew 867 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,520 exactly where to go. And that she did. 868 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,760 Well, actually the day before this, Lisa had actually done 869 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,440 that whole drive, the nearly three hour drive from Kansas all 870 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,120 the way to Skidmore, just to kind of test it like a test run. 871 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,880 She wanted to make sure she knew where she was going because she 872 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:15,960 had big plans the next day, didn't she? 873 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,760 The next morning Lisa woke up and made that same long ass 874 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,240 drive again all the way to Skidmore and when she arrived 875 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,480 she knocked on the door and Bobby Jo welcomed her inside her 876 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,480 home with a smile. There was nothing seemingly 877 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,880 amiss about Darlene Fisher. She just looked and seemed like 878 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,560 a normal lady that was interested in adopting a puppy. 879 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,160 Now we don't know exactly what happened inside that house and 880 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,560 when and how. All we know is kind of what we 881 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,000 can tell from the crime scene. So this, this is as best as I 882 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,200 can tell it. We do know that at one point, 883 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,480 Bobby must have turned her back from Lisa Montgomery, and that 884 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,440 was when she decided to attack. She grabbed a piece of rope, 885 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,120 wrapped it around Bobby's neck from behind. 886 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,400 So the rope was here and she'd squeezed it as tight as she 887 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,840 possibly could. She strangled Bobby Jo until she 888 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,880 fell unconscious. Bobby fell to the ground and 889 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,960 that was when Lisa Montgomery went into the kitchen, picked a 890 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:15,720 knife and returned to carry out this at home C-section. 891 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:21,040 Lisa cut the baby out of Bobby Jo's stomach and left with this 892 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,720 this newborn child as quickly as she possibly could. 893 00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:28,120 The next time she was heard from was about 5:30 that evening when 894 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,240 she texted Kevin saying, I've had the baby, I've had our 895 00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:34,040 daughter, please come and collect me from this fish 896 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,400 restaurant. And Kevin was so excited to hear 897 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:37,960 this. He didn't doubt her for a 898 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,080 second. He was elated that their baby 899 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,880 was here early. So he went and picked up their 900 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,200 two teenage sons or her two teenage sons. 901 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,440 And they went to go and meet their mam and their new baby 902 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,400 sister at the fish and chip shop. 903 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,800 Anyway, it really didn't take that long for all of this to 904 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,480 catch up to Lisa Montgomery. And about two days after she 905 00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,800 committed this attack and this kidnapping, the baby was 906 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,880 recovered, DNA tested, and finally returned to Zeb. 907 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,560 It was their baby. Of course it was. 908 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,280 Luckily, the baby girl survived. And like I said, she didn't have 909 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,640 any health issues or complications. 910 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:15,320 It was super, super lucky because with a situation like 911 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,360 that, it could have so easily gone wrong. 912 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,160 Zeb renamed their daughter. Of course, they weren't going to 913 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,080 keep the name that Lisa gave her. 914 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,200 Lisa called her Abigail. Zeb renamed her to Victoria Jo, 915 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,200 with the Jo part being a nod to her mother, Bobby Jo. 916 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,080 And in the aftermath of this case, it was found that this 917 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,160 actually wasn't the first time that Lisa Montgomery had lied 918 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,480 about being pregnant. She'd done this multiple times. 919 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,920 This was as far as she'd ever taken it. 920 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,200 Like she'd never had to try and find a baby before. 921 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,920 She would always try and like squash the lie before it got 922 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,840 this far. She had a really good lie that 923 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,840 she could use because she had told Kevin Montgomery that she 924 00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,280 had a tube side. So she she was unlikely to have 925 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,080 babies. But she'd conveniently told him 926 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,480 that in some cases, some women can fall pregnant. 927 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,920 So when she kept falling pregnant every now and again, 928 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,960 Kevin didn't question it. But because she'd had her tubes 929 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,280 tied once it got to about four or five months in, she was able 930 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,280 to lie to him then and say, oh, because my uterus is not 931 00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:14,400 actually meant to be holding a baby. 932 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,960 We've had complications. And she would lie about 933 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,400 miscarrying. She would lie about having to 934 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,440 have abortions, like medical intervention abortions to save 935 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,400 her life when she's not even pregnant. 936 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,960 There's no baby in there. She'd lied about being pregnant 937 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,360 with Kevin. She'd lied about being pregnant 938 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,600 with her ex Carl, this whole time. 939 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,640 She's sterilized. She could and not get pregnant 940 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,840 at all. So yeah, she'd done this line 941 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,920 multiple, multiple times and always been able to get away 942 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,000 with it somehow until this particular time when her ex Carl 943 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:45,640 was threatening to take her to court. 944 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,280 She knew she had to produce a baby from somewhere and it drove 945 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,600 her to such lengths. So Lisa Montgomery was 946 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,840 officially charged with kidnapping resulting in death, 947 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,240 which is a charge I've. I don't think I've ever heard of 948 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:02,280 before, which goes to show just how unique this case is. 949 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,000 Like, you hear of kidnapping and murder a lot, but kidnapping 950 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,560 resulting in death, I've never heard that that phrase exactly 951 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,160 before. So in her initial court hearing, 952 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,560 Lisa Montgomery actually tried to plead not guilty despite 953 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,760 giving an audio confession and admitting to everything. 954 00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:21,280 She tried to say she was not guilty. 955 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,640 And at first, it wasn't even because they thought they could 956 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,560 get away with an insanity plea. She was literally just saying, 957 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,520 Nah, I didn't do it. But then after a while, it was 958 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,680 kind of like, well, obviously she did do it. 959 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,000 So they tried to get the not guilty on grounds of diminished 960 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:37,960 responsibility. They tried to say that she was 961 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,760 clinically insane at the time that she committed this murder, 962 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,960 so she can't be held fully responsible for it. 963 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,000 And you know what? I find this really, really mad. 964 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:48,320 The jury rejected the insanity plea. 965 00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,960 I don't know how on earth they could do that because she was 966 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,520 diagnosed with multiple different mental illnesses. 967 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,520 We'll get there in a second. She was diagnosed with so many 968 00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,320 different things that clearly influence her actions. 969 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:03,800 They don't make them OK. But that's why we have this 970 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,600 plea. That's why we can find people 971 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,800 not guilty based on their mental health is when they are 972 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,880 diagnosed with so many things that so directly affected the 973 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,080 crime that they committed. Like, anyway, anyway, we'll get 974 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,840 to all the things that she was diagnosed with in a second. 975 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,480 But first of all, let's go back to her sentencing and her 976 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,440 charging because I got, I got really swept off track. 977 00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,680 Then I get quite passionate about this one for some reason. 978 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:31,520 So anyway, Lisa Montgomery was found guilty in October of 2007. 979 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,000 And for her crimes, she was going to be sentenced to death. 980 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,680 She was going to be executed for what she did, which again, I 981 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,840 don't want this to come off as defensive on Lisa's behalf. 982 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:47,360 I'm not defending her, but just as a cons, this really doesn't 983 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,160 sit right with me. Finding someone guilty and 984 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:53,520 sentencing them to death when they are clearly very very 985 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,080 mentally ill. I don't think that should exist. 986 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,440 I don't think that should have happened. 987 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:02,240 Looking at Lisa's childhood and her extensive history of abuse, 988 00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:06,160 sexual abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse from every single 989 00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,800 person in her life pretty much. How can you in good faith decide 990 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,880 to execute someone who is severely mentally ill? 991 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,600 I'm pretty sure there is rules against that but they didn't 992 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,320 find her like clinically insane in the trials even though she 993 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,800 was diagnosed with things. That's where the frustration is 994 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,880 coming in because the doctor's opinions and the courts opinions 995 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:33,080 are just not the same one. I think she certainly deserves 996 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,960 to be locked up for the rest of her life for what she did. 997 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:39,680 She is a danger to society and she needs to pay for what she's 998 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:43,840 done to Bobby Jo and for her whole family and to Zeb and to 999 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,040 the baby that is going to grow up without a mother. 1000 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,840 But does Lisa Montgomery need to be executed for this? 1001 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:50,960 I don't know. I'm honest. 1002 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,480 I'm honestly shocked that that was the conclusion that they 1003 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:54,840 came to. I really am. 1004 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,320 Her defense team did desperately try to appeal this and try to 1005 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,200 get her, you know, just life in prison. 1006 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,000 But her defence team was shocking. 1007 00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,440 They were blooming awful. They just couldn't work together 1008 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,360 at all, and supposedly individually, so there were 1009 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,800 about four or five of them. And individually they were 1010 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,360 supposed to be quite good lawyers, but put them together 1011 00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,880 and it was just way too many big egos in one room. 1012 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,720 They all wanted to be the leader, they all hated each 1013 00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:21,880 other, they all hated how they would all go about it. 1014 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,280 So they spent more of their time and effort and energy bickering 1015 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,120 with each other, trying to get each other like kicked off the 1016 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,600 case rather than actually trying to make a good defence for Lisa 1017 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,000 Montgomery. In fact there was 1 male lawyer, 1018 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,160 and I do want to mention this, there was 1 male lawyer that was 1019 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,760 incredibly sexist to one of the female lawyers on the team, 1020 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,800 saying he was not going to take any orders from any damn woman. 1021 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,720 That's how uncooperative the whole group was with each other. 1022 00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,960 Don't worry, the women were just as uncooperative back. 1023 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:49,800 None of them were working well together at all. 1024 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,480 So the case that they presented to the court was terrible and 1025 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,840 did not convince anyone of anything. 1026 00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,280 Even though Lisa had mental illnesses, her defence team were 1027 00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:04,120 just so crap like displaying that and arguing that that it 1028 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,600 didn't even work and Lisa was still to be sentenced to death. 1029 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,040 That being said, it wasn't all the lawyers fault. 1030 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,000 They had mentioned the basics, they had mentioned her diagnosis 1031 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,240 and they had mentioned all the extensive abuse that Lisa had 1032 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:19,080 faced. They just hadn't argued it very 1033 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,440 well. So the court and the jury knew 1034 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,440 about it all and still decided to go ahead with the death 1035 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,280 sentence. There was just so many people 1036 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,960 being just daft throughout this. I think her diagnosis, I've been 1037 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,480 telling you, I'm going to tell her a diagnosis. 1038 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,560 So this included depression, borderline personality disorder, 1039 00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,200 post traumatic stress disorder, which was very, very severe, and 1040 00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,840 pseudosciasis, which is the pregnancy thing. 1041 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,560 And of course they detailed all of the abuse that Lisa had gone 1042 00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,480 through that caused the PTSD. They started from the very 1043 00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,880 beginning, from when she was literally first born and abused 1044 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,160 by her biological mum and father all the way until over the age 1045 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,520 of 18 when she was then married off to her own stepbrother and 1046 00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,320 abused by him too. This woman had faced a life of 1047 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:05,080 hell. Yet the jury still rejected the 1048 00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,040 insanity plea. It's it's an absolute madness to 1049 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:09,480 me. I cannot believe it. 1050 00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:14,640 Lisa Marie Montgomery was executed on January 13th, 2021 1051 00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:17,280 by lethal injection. When asked if she had any last 1052 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,880 words, Lisa simply said no. She was the first woman to have 1053 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:26,200 been executed in 70 years and no other woman has been executed 1054 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:27,960 since then. I mean, it was only last year, 1055 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,080 but still the first in like the last 7, 70 years. 1056 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,720 That's crazy. Not that much is known about the 1057 00:52:33,720 --> 00:52:37,560 baby, about Victoria Jo. And even if it was known, I 1058 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,360 don't think I would be putting it in this video. 1059 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,200 I think it's quite important for this girl to be able to live a 1060 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,400 normal life. She'll be about 17 now and as 1061 00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:48,800 far as I'm aware, she has been able to live a relatively normal 1062 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,320 life continuing on from this. And that is all for this 1063 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,400 episode. Thank you so much for tuning in 1064 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,440 to Outlaw Podcast. Make sure to follow us, rate the 1065 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,440 pod and I will see you in the next episode. 1066 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:01,000 Bye.