1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,880 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 3 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,280 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,880 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,880 and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,800 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,600 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,640 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,520 back to human resources. Hello everyone, welcome back to 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,560 the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 11 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,360 Thank you so much for being here for another week and welcome. 12 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,400 I feel like we need to edit in some like jazzy fireworks, but 13 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,480 welcome to our very first Policy Pulse segment. 14 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,280 If you listen to the episode back on February 18th with my 15 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,280 esteemed guest Brian Driscoll, who is officially the Co host of 16 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,040 this segment, effectively we shared that we were going to be 17 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,080 breaking down policies that are kind of like really making 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,240 headlines or things that have really come up recently, at 19 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,480 least specifically to the US and kind of allowing the the moment 20 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,520 to take a look ahead and see what's on the horizon. 21 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,800 So this Policy Pulse segment is intended to give you a ton of 22 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,880 information in a condensed period of time so that you can 23 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,120 get as much insight as possible into how your organization or 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,320 your business may need to operate, either continuously or 25 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:29,280 maybe in a changed way depending on the circumstance. 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,840 So again, tons and tons of information will be packed into 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,480 these segments and you can expect them once a month. 28 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,800 So at least that's what we're tracking for now. 29 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,120 If these are super popular, maybe we'll do more. 30 00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:43,160 If you're like, well, it's a lot of info we need to do these 31 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,200 quarterly, that's OK too. Let us know, show your feedback 32 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,040 once you've kind of listened to the episode. 33 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,760 But that said, welcome back, Brian. 34 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:58,120 Thank you so much for being our resident Policy Pulse Co host on 35 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,600 the podcast. I appreciate it. 36 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,520 Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the opportunity to 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,800 be here and give these updates. I think there's a lot happening 38 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,880 and there's also a lot of wait and see, so it's good to stay on 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,280 top of things. Totally. 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,280 I agree. I love a segment. 41 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,240 You're not gonna catch me in a moment where I'm not gonna say, 42 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,920 yeah, let's do it to a segment. I'm always going to be into a 43 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:23,720 segment. So I love it. 44 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,520 We're going to have a very specific agenda, which is 45 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,560 actually pretty different than the way that I typically operate 46 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,280 my podcast, as you know, because you've been a guest a few times 47 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,240 already. So for everyone listening, we're 48 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,440 going to talk about some different things that are 49 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,880 present day, like things that you should know, things that 50 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,240 might might impact you depending on your business or your 51 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,120 industry. And then we're going to move 52 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,640 into really helping to allow you to digest what some of these 53 00:02:52,640 --> 00:02:55,840 things actually mean and actually mean for you. 54 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:01,000 And then also the impact, of course, as well as what ideas or 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,440 suggestions we might have for implementation, if that's even 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,120 applicable. And then we'll kind of move into 57 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,320 what's on the horizon as we look ahead. 58 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:14,840 So with that, one of the first things that I think everyone's 59 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,560 probably thinking about is this feeling around economic 60 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,840 uncertainty and fears around a recession in the US 61 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,560 specifically. And in some of our research and 62 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,000 preparing for this episode, we found at least, you know, we 63 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:36,000 pulled together that there is this increasing concern about a 64 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,840 potential recession in the US, such as, you know, with 65 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,120 policies, I should say, such as tariffs, federal spending cuts 66 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,000 and mass layoffs, which we've seen even this week as we're 67 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,320 recording it at the federal level, which can and probably 68 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,000 are contributing to economic uncertainty. 69 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:59,160 So Brian, what are your thoughts on that from a really like a 70 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,400 policy standpoint and and what people should kind of walk away 71 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:06,400 with and take away? Yeah, it's, it's definitely a 72 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,520 tough time. There's a ton of uncertainty. 73 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,240 Uncertainty never does does any favors to not only individuals, 74 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,440 but also to the economy as, as a whole. 75 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,240 And to your point about, you know, mass layoffs, I think it 76 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:28,360 was, I think it was like 10% of last month's job losses were 77 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,480 from the federal government. That's that's an enormous amount 78 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,280 that is just not normally seen. And now those are people that, 79 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,360 you know, we're already having, having maybe some difficulty 80 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,600 affording eggs and now, now they're going without paychecks. 81 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:49,560 So whether you're in the, the public workforce or the private 82 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:51,920 workforce, there's definitely a lot of uncertainty. 83 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,720 And like, you know, I'm not an economic expert. 84 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:02,680 I have some, some friends who are, and I have been increasing 85 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,000 some of the text conversations with some of them recently. 86 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,240 And you know, the, the biggest, the biggest thing that that 87 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,000 they're telling me is just just be careful. 88 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:17,560 Just watch your spending, you know, save where you can cut 89 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,000 back on every streaming service, right? 90 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,080 Like, you know, just, I know that the last thing that people 91 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,520 need is is budget advice when they're already not making 92 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:32,560 enough money. And, and, and I'd, I'd feel 93 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:38,840 somewhat, somewhat helpless to, to provide a better, better 94 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:43,360 insight into that. But it's, it's it, it, it really 95 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:44,920 is true. When, when there's so much 96 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,800 uncertainty about just cutting where you can because there's, 97 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,680 there's no telling what's what's coming down the line. 98 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,160 As you said, with tariffs, that's going to cause more 99 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:00,240 layoffs as businesses have trouble making, making profits 100 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:04,040 and being able to pay employees. There's just, there's just a 101 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,200 whole snowball effect of, of things that are happening right 102 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,600 now that unfortunately there's a lot of a lot of turmoil in the 103 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,320 moment. And it's going to take a few 104 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,480 months before we really see how things, how things settle. 105 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,680 As with a lot of things that that we're going to discuss in 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:25,040 these segments, it it does just take time for for some of these 107 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,400 things to settle and and have a long term understanding of of 108 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,200 what to do. Yeah, no, it's totally fair. 109 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:37,960 I mean, I, The thing is, I feel like every year of the podcast 110 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,680 in the last four years toward, I was going to say toward the end 111 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,640 of the year, but really at some point in the year, let's say the 112 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:50,240 calendar year, I talk about these, you know, impending the, 113 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,520 the feeling of impending doom, whether it's like through 114 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,800 layoffs, economic uncertainty. So we know that these feelings 115 00:06:56,840 --> 00:07:02,040 are resonant pretty often. Like, I think even last year I 116 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,520 talked about how the end of the year tends to be a hotspot for 117 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,400 layoffs. It tends to be when businesses 118 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,720 are either, you know, evaluating where they are fiscally and 119 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,760 seeing, well, how much can we make by the end of the year or 120 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,400 how much do we need to cut by the end of the year. 121 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:25,360 And when I think about the, that, that sentiment, the, what 122 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,000 I would say, I would offer from like a, an advice standpoint is 123 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,480 this idiom that I think translates well, which is the, I 124 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,840 think it's like the seeds you plant today are the flowers of 125 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,440 tomorrow. So I say that in the sense that 126 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,400 for for HR partners and leaders and maybe just leaders in 127 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,560 general, the, the better you can do today to think about what 128 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,800 your organization might look like in a year, 2 years, three 129 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,280 years, four years, five years to be as future proofed as 130 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,760 possible, like reduce wasteful spending. 131 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,040 Think about your hiring strategically, think about your 132 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,000 promotion strategically, think about everything strategically. 133 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,560 I, I think that sometimes leaning into the control that we 134 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,080 do have over our business decisions allows us to feel a 135 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,320 little bit more certainty in the long run. 136 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,280 Like I've, I have learned at least in the last few years what 137 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,480 it means to stretch the runway because I've seen leaders who 138 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,520 I've worked for take a really hard and fast look at, OK, we 139 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,280 might need something today, but does that put us in a difficult 140 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,120 situation tomorrow? And I think that's that's kind 141 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,960 of what I'm trying to get at is that there is of course this 142 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,840 element that tons of federal workers and others outside of 143 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,920 the government have lost their jobs and that is an issue today 144 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,360 and they need to figure out their next stream of income 145 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,360 today. And also for listeners who are 146 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:59,200 listening get go figure they in terms of what they can do to 147 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,520 best prepare themselves to feel more certain to feel more 148 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,840 stable. I do think it's like how do we 149 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,800 think as long term as we possibly can so that we are. 150 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,640 It's honestly it's the same thing in like personal finance. 151 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,560 If you're spending everything you earn, you're going to have a 152 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,120 really difficult time if something changes to your 153 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,040 income. I don't know it is. 154 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,760 I agree it is hard to give advice when there is this 155 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,800 sentiment, but I I also think, you know, I always say multiple 156 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,760 things can be true at once. I also think that there is a 157 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,920 piece within the planning side of businesses that people can 158 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:42,400 lean into in order to do the best possible thing to ensure 159 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,080 stability through economic uncertainty. 160 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:47,960 And that's, that's the ultimate point. 161 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,800 Like you, you, I think, I think you hit it on the head there 162 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,280 like that. It's being proactive and you can 163 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,960 only be proactive if you know what's happening. 164 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,280 You may not have answers and I know that can be unsatisfying, 165 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,720 but by understanding what's happening and what the most 166 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:13,120 likely or even most possible outcomes could be, you can, you 167 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,160 can take some steps to prepare. Does this, you know, make it 168 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,440 difficult for for small businesses? 169 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,520 Does it make it difficult for people already working free jobs 170 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,200 or 607080 hours a week? Sure. 171 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,440 What free time are you going to use to, to, you know, watch the 172 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,480 news, read the news and and stay updated on stuff like that. 173 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,480 But maybe that's where we come in to help with that. 174 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,320 But I think that I think that that you're absolutely right. 175 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,560 Knowing what knowing what's happening is part of the is part 176 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:47,800 of an individual's and a business's ability to be 177 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,280 proactive. Yeah, exactly. 178 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:57,360 I, I am now also recalling that I did a, an episode on recession 179 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,720 proofing a number of years ago and it's just dawning on me that 180 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,920 this is kind of just the way the economy and life works is 181 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:07,960 there's this up and down. And of course, we know that 182 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,240 there's a, you know, an administration, there was an 183 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,800 administration change a few years ago and then obviously a 184 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,800 change now, but kind of going back to a prior administration. 185 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:22,040 And it's, it'll be interesting to see, I think how things shake 186 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,320 out and especially concerning things that I am not well versed 187 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:32,760 in, like tariffs and spending cuts from a, from the government 188 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:34,800 specifically. And in terms of like where the 189 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,480 money is spent, I'm not an expert on that either. 190 00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:40,760 But I think it will be interesting to see just how it 191 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,560 all plays out. And I think it's just kind of 192 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:45,040 like a look ahead, as you said, it's like a wait and see. 193 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,320 It's true, it's true because there's, you know, there's a lot 194 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,840 of specifically with tariffs to, to use that example, like 195 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:58,800 there's a lot of talk of, of, of pulling the tariffs back, you 196 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,000 know, using it as a threat more than anything, even if it's 197 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,120 implemented and then, you know, revoked 2448 hours later, like 198 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:13,320 happened last week. I, I do think that just speaking 199 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,040 about tariffs is just not good policy. 200 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,440 It, it, it, it raises prices and once prices go up, they never 201 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,240 come down. And that's hard for anyone to 202 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,600 anyone or any business to, to absorb. 203 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,080 And it just causes a ripple effect to your point, like it 204 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,840 just it, it create not only creates more uncertainty, but 205 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,480 also creates a ripple effect of of economic problems that put 206 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,720 more fear in people and that. Yeah, it's there's nothing 207 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,520 scarier than the idea of financial ruin, right? 208 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,720 Like that's not arguably not to like, you know, have point in 209 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,880 jest to something very serious, but that's like arguably the 210 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,400 scariest thing. To add a little personal light 211 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,120 anecdote here, I actually started baking homemade English 212 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,280 muffins because of how expensive they were. 213 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,680 So. And actually I did a Dang good 214 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:10,080 job. Like they are some delicious 215 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,600 English muffins. So now I'm like, I'm not 216 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,400 spending all that money on English muffins from a very 217 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,480 notable brand anymore. And nor am I going to buy the 218 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,480 generic ones. I'm just going to make them from 219 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,920 scratch. I'm just a regular old homemaker 220 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,200 over here running a podcast, working full time and stuff like 221 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:27,560 that. But yeah, find me for some 222 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,440 English muffins. So I mean, it's all of all of 223 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,360 what we've talked about is so it's it's heavy. 224 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,120 It's heavy. Like people want stability, They 225 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,560 want stability in their jobs, they want stability in their 226 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:41,160 home lives. They want stability in their 227 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:46,880 relationships and they want stability in their their 228 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,800 country. And you know, just 229 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,440 macroeconomically all of that matters. 230 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,800 So I appreciate you going through some of that with us. 231 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,360 And there is an article from Business Insider that I will 232 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,720 link in the show notes if anyone wants to read a little bit 233 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,400 further on some of the odds around a recession economy from 234 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,280 polymarket. So with that, one of the other 235 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:14,760 topics that we should discuss is this shift in corporate culture 236 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,920 and Labor Relations. There's been even since we did 237 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,320 some of this research, there's been more to come out of 238 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,160 especially the Labor Relations side of things in terms of who's 239 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,560 been appointed to different things and where the National 240 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,800 Labor Review Board has stood on something. 241 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,960 So just generally speaking, there was an article from Axios 242 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:40,400 about like being in this big boss era and that managers are 243 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,480 in their big boss era. And I had to take a step back 244 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,240 and say, like, are we really using that phrase? 245 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,440 Like I just have such an issue with the phrase. 246 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,480 I'm like, why? OK. 247 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:55,120 Anyway, basically it means that worker empowerment has gained 248 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,560 post pandemic. So of course with like the great 249 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,280 resignation and the the visibility into increased union 250 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,840 activity, which we've seen over the last couple of years, those 251 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,560 things have diminished. So what once was kind of like on 252 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,080 this upward trajectory, especially in the last couple of 253 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,320 years, I guess have has now either plateaued or has started 254 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,600 to fall. And then the article also talks 255 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,440 about how work life balance, flexibility and diversity, as we 256 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,600 talked about back in February, are being sidelined. 257 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,520 And there are some key figures who add who are advocating for 258 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,160 rigorous work weeks. And, you know, there is 259 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:37,000 certainly a display from many at the government level kind of 260 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,840 placing this distrust on remote work. 261 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,240 And so of course, this is all highlighting a broader trend of 262 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,120 industry leaders reclaiming, let's say, quote, UN quote, 263 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,000 control over workplace culture. Because especially when we put 264 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,080 this into context, I think the way that I put it during COVID, 265 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,600 when I hadn't, when I first started my podcast, is that 266 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,720 workers were now in the driver's seat. 267 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,400 And the workers, if we think about this like from a visual 268 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,560 perspective, there's been a bit of a shift where now the the 269 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,640 employee or the worker is in a bit of the passenger seat, maybe 270 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,200 even in the middle seat between, if we're talking about like a 271 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,640 pickup truck between the driver and the passenger side. 272 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,880 And so it it's, it feels like there's a bit of an entanglement 273 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,880 between what the employees are demanding and what bosses, let's 274 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,040 use that term, bosses are expecting, especially when we 275 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,400 see some of these key figures in US society and politics who are, 276 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:39,120 you know, have really deeply held beliefs on remote work and 277 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,160 work weeks in general. So what are your thoughts? 278 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:45,880 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I, I would start 279 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,520 by saying, never mind the fact that that the president and his 280 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,040 and his largest campaign donor both work remotely. 281 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,880 So like, you know, arguing against remote work is, is kind 282 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:04,280 of hypocritical. I am not a person who advocates 283 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:11,720 for, for broad statements across the board that remote work is 284 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,920 bad period or in office work is bad period. 285 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,880 Obviously there are some jobs that require in person 286 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,599 activities. So that's that's not that's not 287 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,760 really up for up for debate or discussion. 288 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:31,960 But for the jobs that allow for remote or hybrid work, why not 289 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,520 like what is what is the ultimate issue for employers? 290 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,120 In my view, it's control. It's that to your point about 291 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:44,640 the pendulum swinging, I think the pendulum is swinging as a 292 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,640 society, but I think that we're actually seeing some 293 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,920 simultaneous pendulums sort of emerge because there are some 294 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:57,600 employers that are keeping that pendulum to the employee side 295 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,080 and saying, you know, what flexibility has worked for us, 296 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,360 remote work has worked for us. Not only have we saved money 297 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,600 because we don't have a large office, we're not, you know, 298 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,000 stocking it with candy and and kegs to keep people in the 299 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,800 office 14 hours a day. Kegs, that's, that's a new 300 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:13,680 event. I like it. 301 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,160 That's our next segment. I love it. 302 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,200 I'm on board. You know, those, those types of 303 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,400 things are, are being cut. So, so the businesses are saving 304 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,760 money. They're also able to attract 305 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,040 better talent because they're not having to recruit from 306 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,640 within, you know, a 30 mile radius of their office. 307 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,440 They can recruit nationally or globally. 308 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,360 There's just so many benefits when work can be done remotely. 309 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,640 There are so many benefits to both employers and employees and 310 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,200 the companies that see that, the companies that understand that 311 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,600 are the ones that are sort of leading the charge and, and that 312 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,160 pendulum still hanging over there on the employee side. 313 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,360 I would also make the argument that it's actually those types 314 00:18:56,360 --> 00:19:00,200 of companies and those business leaders are not seeing it as a 315 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,240 pendulum swung all the way to employees being in the driver's 316 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,560 seat. They're seeing it as the balance 317 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,520 that companies have been seeking for decades of how do we find 318 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,360 the best talent to work efficiently and to make the 319 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,120 business the most money when possible. 320 00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:23,080 Remote work is often the way to do that. 321 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,160 Yeah, IA 100% agree. Look, I you're always going to 322 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,400 find me advocating for remote work because I don't know that I 323 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,920 would still be working if I weren't remote. 324 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,040 Frankly, you know, if I didn't have to, I don't know that I 325 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,920 would want to miss this time with my daughters. 326 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,080 I've said this very candidly and I am very grateful that I have 327 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,720 that choice and that I have the opportunity to be remote. 328 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,440 That said, I thought about something that I didn't think 329 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,400 about before. So I'm go I'm fully hitting you 330 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,000 with a question that you might be unprepared for. 331 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,640 Lucky you. I'm wondering, do you think now, 332 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,960 of course we still have to talk about something like the public 333 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,440 and private sector elements of this. 334 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:09,480 Do you? But putting that aside for the 335 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,800 moment, do you think that there's any element of this like 336 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,040 strong arm push against remote work? 337 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:24,040 That comes from this like ideology around keeping things 338 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,600 like in house, so to speak, meaning onshore in the US Now, 339 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,480 obviously sometimes that is more expensive for businesses because 340 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,200 remote work has enabled businesses to be strategic and 341 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:42,560 and think globally, which of again, that of course allows 342 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,000 strategy and financial decisions because salaries depending on 343 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,320 where someone's hiring can be very different with the same 344 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,720 level of talent as compared to someone in the US. 345 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,760 So I'm curious, like, do do you get any sense that this could be 346 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:06,040 a push like a part of a bigger picture that's focusing on jobs 347 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,640 in the US at all? Or am I like pulling something 348 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,360 out of a hat? I don't think you're pulling 349 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:17,080 something out of a hat. I would say that it's, I agree 350 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,840 with what you're saying that there's the, the possibility 351 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,240 that this is sort of a, a nationalist agenda. 352 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,520 This, this push for in office work. 353 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,640 I think, I think, and, and not to be dismissive of that 'cause 354 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,280 I, I do think there's something to that. 355 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:40,360 I think the, the core of it is money because I think, I think 356 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:45,720 the core of it is companies have these long term leases on office 357 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:47,520 space. They don't want to see it go 358 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,400 empty. They want to, they want to fill 359 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,640 that space. The real estate, the commercial 360 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,960 real estate have all these, all these office spaces, all these 361 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:02,160 high rises in, in metro areas that are, that are not empty, 362 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,640 You know, they're mostly, mostly still occupied, but they want to 363 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,000 make sure that they have a long term investment. 364 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,680 You know, some buildings cost billions of dollars And like the 365 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,600 property managers want to make sure that, that they're 366 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,920 recouping that investment over, over a couple of decades. 367 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,280 And so they, they want to keep businesses in the office. 368 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,360 And I think that's, that's ultimately what it is. 369 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:29,160 It is, it's just the core of it anyway is it's just, it's all 370 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,040 it's money. It's always money. 371 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,440 That's a good point. I mean, I can say from, you 372 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,440 know, being in New York, I, I lived in the city during COVID 373 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,160 and I'm from New Jersey. Like this is just home. 374 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,440 Like there's no like escaping the city, so to speak, which 375 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,240 many people did. And in that exodus that 376 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,240 happened, a ton of real estate left became vacant, especially 377 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,760 commercial real estate, to your point. 378 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,640 And businesses did definitely struggle to get people back 379 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,280 because people really enjoyed the flexibility. 380 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,600 There's also what we're seeing with Gen. 381 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,760 Z especially, and maybe even the generation after them 382 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,520 potentially, which I think is Gen. 383 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,440 Alpha maybe, I don't know. I think, I think I'm not sure. 384 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,640 I'm not. I'm I'm too old. 385 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,000 Yeah no same like I just let me know. 386 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,680 Just e-mail me or DM me what it is and it's fine. 387 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,200 Just tell me I'm wrong. I agree. 388 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,680 I want to be too old for it too. They want maximum flexibility. 389 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,560 They want to choose when they come in, they want the ability 390 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,960 to come in, but they also want to be remote and they want to 391 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,840 tell you what number of days are. 392 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,880 They don't even want to commit to a number of days. 393 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,720 They want it to be too like super, completely hyper 394 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,600 flexible, which I I love, But this like doesn't that kind of 395 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,720 work for both? Doesn't that work for the 396 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,840 business and the employee? It absolutely does. 397 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,440 There is tons of data to suggest that that Gen. 398 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,920 X and, and younger or sorry, Gen. 399 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:06,040 Z and younger are, are are seeking that hybrid environment, 400 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,040 that flexible environment, partly because the office is 401 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,240 traditionally a social space. It is a space to meet new 402 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:22,720 people, to make some friends and, and because of, I don't 403 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,640 know, technology, phones, computers, game consoles, like 404 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,160 everything, you know, blame it on, on whatever you want. 405 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:36,560 Younger generations don't have the same social environment, in 406 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,000 person social environment that older generations got in their 407 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:44,360 youth, partly because of coming, coming of age, coming of, of 408 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:48,600 working age during the pandemic. That, that certainly played a 409 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,800 role in that. But I think some of those 410 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,640 generations are looking, looking to experience the office, not 411 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,320 every day, not for, you know, 4060 hours a week. 412 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:02,840 To your point, right, to your point on a flexible basis, you 413 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,360 know what, I've got this group of friends, we all work at the 414 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,960 same company. One of them said they need to go 415 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,400 to the office today and texted us and three others are going to 416 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,800 show up. Like that's the kind of stuff 417 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,040 that they want. I don't, I don't necessarily see 418 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,840 a problem with that because again, to your point, that's, 419 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,720 that's the balance. That's where, that's where 420 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,400 compromise is often times great. And that's a great compromise. 421 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,000 Not fully remote, not fully in office. 422 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,480 Does it mean that you've got to live close to an office? 423 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,880 I would argue not necessarily, because flexibility means that 424 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,400 if you live in yeah, you can figure it out. 425 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,080 If you live in a different state, you know, maybe you go 426 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,680 into the office once a week because you've got family near 427 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,240 the office and, and you're going there, you know, for a long 428 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,480 weekend once, once a month or something like that, like that. 429 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,840 To me, flexibility is determined by what works for the individual 430 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,200 and what works for the company. Yeah, totally agree. 431 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,200 When we think about this and maybe even the economic 432 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,920 uncertainty topic, are there anything, is there anything I 433 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,240 should say, excuse me, that the listeners should think about 434 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,120 when it comes to their businesses? 435 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:18,200 Is there anything like right now that depending on the sector or 436 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,080 the industry, that that directly impacts them that they need to 437 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,040 be considerate of? I think not. 438 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:33,440 It's, it's not even from a, from a truly financial perspective, I 439 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,800 think what we talked about before, understanding what's 440 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,360 going on in the country, in the world to be able to make some 441 00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:41,720 proactive steps is, is important. 442 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:47,760 But I think one thing to sort of know about and be aware of is 443 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,680 relating to what you, one of the things you mentioned earlier the 444 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,840 the National Labor Relations Board and a few years ago there 445 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,160 was a lot of news about non compete agreements and how those 446 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,560 were how those were the federal government said, the Biden 447 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,720 administration said those are probably violating federal law 448 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,360 because they're too restrictive. The new acting general counsel 449 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:18,480 of the NLRB has said that we're doing away with that, that 450 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,560 policy businesses can now use non competes as they as they 451 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,360 wish. The big caveat to that is that 452 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,000 most non competes fall under state law. 453 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,520 And that's where employers need to be real careful about hearing 454 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,640 this news from the NLRB and being like, oh, OK, we're gonna, 455 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,080 you know, go back to our old ways of, of using non competes 456 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,640 and restricting employees geographically and, and for a 457 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,080 time after they leave. I don't recommend doing that. 458 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,080 Again, broad statement. I don't recommend doing that 459 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,280 because so much non compete, so much non compete law falls under 460 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,280 state law. And so you need to talk with 461 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,800 your employment lawyer and HR consultant or whatever, someone 462 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,880 who is who is knowledgeable about your individual state laws 463 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:02,920 to make sure that you are adhering to those state laws 464 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,400 regardless of what the the National Labor Relations Board 465 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,800 has said. Right. 466 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,960 It's a good thing to keep, keep a focus on as we continue to see 467 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,800 things probably come up about that. 468 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,320 I mean, that has been quite the topic. 469 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,640 And I'm curious, as we kind of come to a close here, is there 470 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,080 anything else on the horizon that we should kind of keep an 471 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,600 eye out for we, you know, especially thinking about what 472 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,600 our segment might look like next month? 473 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,560 I think there's a lot of, as, as we've talked about, there's a 474 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,320 lot of wait and see right now with, with things that are 475 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,800 happening. And, and one of those things 476 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,280 that I, I anticipate, yes, to your point over the next couple 477 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,240 of months, we will start hearing some, some finality from the 478 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,960 Supreme Court and other, other courts that are currently 479 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,440 hearing cases. One of them that I would keep an 480 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,040 eye on is Ames versus Ohio. That's a Supreme Court case that 481 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,480 they heard oral arguments on it last week or the week before. 482 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:12,200 The very short version, the plaintiff Ames, is a straight 483 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,720 white woman, and she claims that she was discriminated against 484 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,680 because someone who identifies as LGBTQ plus was promoted and 485 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,120 not her. The court seemed. 486 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,480 I listened to some of the oral arguments. 487 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,600 The court seemed kind of to follow along party lines, but 488 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,440 seems like they may lower the lower the standard. 489 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,440 Essentially the the discrimination standard. 490 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,160 Generally speaking, white people are not discriminated against in 491 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:47,680 the workforce, and so the bar for claiming discrimination is 492 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,360 slightly higher than for than for minorities who are who are 493 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,240 more often discriminated against in the workforce. 494 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,840 The Supreme Court may just make it an even bar across the board. 495 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,560 Got it. OK. 496 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,400 So definitely a wait and see. I appreciate you walking through 497 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,560 that with us. I had, you know, I have pretty 498 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:12,080 much no eyes on like from an expertise standpoint on case law 499 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,040 because I'm not an attorney, but thankfully you are. 500 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,520 So I, I'm sure we'll continue to lean into your expertise. 501 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:24,080 But thank you so much for our very first Policy Pulse segment 502 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,440 and for all the listeners out there. 503 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,760 We really appreciate you tuning in every week in general for the 504 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,600 podcast, but especially for the segment. 505 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,840 And again, you will hopefully see the segment every month. 506 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,960 That's kind of what we're starting with. 507 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,160 It's, it's loose, right? Like if we want to do more, we 508 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,520 will. If we have to do a little bit 509 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,720 less, we will. But you can definitely count on 510 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,120 this for a monthly cadence for now. 511 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,320 And if you liked this episode, please let us know either by DM 512 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,920 or e-mail. You can find all of the contact 513 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,200 info in the show notes, including where you can connect 514 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,080 with Brian and me directly. And if you have any questions 515 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,080 specific to policies in the US or even, and otherwise, maybe we 516 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,960 need to potentially expand because there's a lot, 517 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,160 especially in North America, considering all the 518 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,960 conversations we've had around tariffs. 519 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,880 If there are any questions from other North American residents, 520 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,160 so to speak, let us know and we'll do our best to kind of 521 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,520 guide the conversation along. But again, topics, suggestions, 522 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,520 questions, anything like that, reach out to myself or Brian and 523 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,560 we will see you in a month. And for everyone else who 524 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,360 listens to the podcast regularly, I'll see you for our 525 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,160 regularly scheduled program next week. 526 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,920 Thank you so much, Brian. Really appreciate it. 527 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,240 I'm so glad we're doing the segment. 528 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,160 Thank you, Tracy. Appreciate it. 529 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,520 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 530 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,800 so that you are the 1st to hear when an episode drops each week 531 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,880 and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 532 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,680 much you love this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 533 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,360 mind who would really enjoy this episode. 534 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:56,560 Make sure you share it with them. 535 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,480 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.