Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've
spent my entire professional career in HR.
Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people
and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create
meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to human resources. Hello everyone, welcome back to
the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast.
Thank you so much for being here for another week and welcome.
I feel like we need to edit in some like jazzy fireworks, but
welcome to our very first Policy Pulse segment.
If you listen to the episode back on February 18th with my
esteemed guest Brian Driscoll, who is officially the Co host of
this segment, effectively we shared that we were going to be
breaking down policies that are kind of like really making
headlines or things that have really come up recently, at
least specifically to the US and kind of allowing the the moment
to take a look ahead and see what's on the horizon.
So this Policy Pulse segment is intended to give you a ton of
information in a condensed period of time so that you can
get as much insight as possible into how your organization or
your business may need to operate, either continuously or
maybe in a changed way depending on the circumstance.
So again, tons and tons of information will be packed into
these segments and you can expect them once a month.
So at least that's what we're tracking for now.
If these are super popular, maybe we'll do more.
If you're like, well, it's a lot of info we need to do these
quarterly, that's OK too. Let us know, show your feedback
once you've kind of listened to the episode.
But that said, welcome back, Brian.
Thank you so much for being our resident Policy Pulse Co host on
the podcast. I appreciate it.
Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate the opportunity to
be here and give these updates. I think there's a lot happening
and there's also a lot of wait and see, so it's good to stay on
top of things. Totally.
I agree. I love a segment.
You're not gonna catch me in a moment where I'm not gonna say,
yeah, let's do it to a segment. I'm always going to be into a
segment. So I love it.
We're going to have a very specific agenda, which is
actually pretty different than the way that I typically operate
my podcast, as you know, because you've been a guest a few times
already. So for everyone listening, we're
going to talk about some different things that are
present day, like things that you should know, things that
might might impact you depending on your business or your
industry. And then we're going to move
into really helping to allow you to digest what some of these
things actually mean and actually mean for you.
And then also the impact, of course, as well as what ideas or
suggestions we might have for implementation, if that's even
applicable. And then we'll kind of move into
what's on the horizon as we look ahead.
So with that, one of the first things that I think everyone's
probably thinking about is this feeling around economic
uncertainty and fears around a recession in the US
specifically. And in some of our research and
preparing for this episode, we found at least, you know, we
pulled together that there is this increasing concern about a
potential recession in the US, such as, you know, with
policies, I should say, such as tariffs, federal spending cuts
and mass layoffs, which we've seen even this week as we're
recording it at the federal level, which can and probably
are contributing to economic uncertainty.
So Brian, what are your thoughts on that from a really like a
policy standpoint and and what people should kind of walk away
with and take away? Yeah, it's, it's definitely a
tough time. There's a ton of uncertainty.
Uncertainty never does does any favors to not only individuals,
but also to the economy as, as a whole.
And to your point about, you know, mass layoffs, I think it
was, I think it was like 10% of last month's job losses were
from the federal government. That's that's an enormous amount
that is just not normally seen. And now those are people that,
you know, we're already having, having maybe some difficulty
affording eggs and now, now they're going without paychecks.
So whether you're in the, the public workforce or the private
workforce, there's definitely a lot of uncertainty.
And like, you know, I'm not an economic expert.
I have some, some friends who are, and I have been increasing
some of the text conversations with some of them recently.
And you know, the, the biggest, the biggest thing that that
they're telling me is just just be careful.
Just watch your spending, you know, save where you can cut
back on every streaming service, right?
Like, you know, just, I know that the last thing that people
need is is budget advice when they're already not making
enough money. And, and, and I'd, I'd feel
somewhat, somewhat helpless to, to provide a better, better
insight into that. But it's, it's it, it, it really
is true. When, when there's so much
uncertainty about just cutting where you can because there's,
there's no telling what's what's coming down the line.
As you said, with tariffs, that's going to cause more
layoffs as businesses have trouble making, making profits
and being able to pay employees. There's just, there's just a
whole snowball effect of, of things that are happening right
now that unfortunately there's a lot of a lot of turmoil in the
moment. And it's going to take a few
months before we really see how things, how things settle.
As with a lot of things that that we're going to discuss in
these segments, it it does just take time for for some of these
things to settle and and have a long term understanding of of
what to do. Yeah, no, it's totally fair.
I mean, I, The thing is, I feel like every year of the podcast
in the last four years toward, I was going to say toward the end
of the year, but really at some point in the year, let's say the
calendar year, I talk about these, you know, impending the,
the feeling of impending doom, whether it's like through
layoffs, economic uncertainty. So we know that these feelings
are resonant pretty often. Like, I think even last year I
talked about how the end of the year tends to be a hotspot for
layoffs. It tends to be when businesses
are either, you know, evaluating where they are fiscally and
seeing, well, how much can we make by the end of the year or
how much do we need to cut by the end of the year.
And when I think about the, that, that sentiment, the, what
I would say, I would offer from like a, an advice standpoint is
this idiom that I think translates well, which is the, I
think it's like the seeds you plant today are the flowers of
tomorrow. So I say that in the sense that
for for HR partners and leaders and maybe just leaders in
general, the, the better you can do today to think about what
your organization might look like in a year, 2 years, three
years, four years, five years to be as future proofed as
possible, like reduce wasteful spending.
Think about your hiring strategically, think about your
promotion strategically, think about everything strategically.
I, I think that sometimes leaning into the control that we
do have over our business decisions allows us to feel a
little bit more certainty in the long run.
Like I've, I have learned at least in the last few years what
it means to stretch the runway because I've seen leaders who
I've worked for take a really hard and fast look at, OK, we
might need something today, but does that put us in a difficult
situation tomorrow? And I think that's that's kind
of what I'm trying to get at is that there is of course this
element that tons of federal workers and others outside of
the government have lost their jobs and that is an issue today
and they need to figure out their next stream of income
today. And also for listeners who are
listening get go figure they in terms of what they can do to
best prepare themselves to feel more certain to feel more
stable. I do think it's like how do we
think as long term as we possibly can so that we are.
It's honestly it's the same thing in like personal finance.
If you're spending everything you earn, you're going to have a
really difficult time if something changes to your
income. I don't know it is.
I agree it is hard to give advice when there is this
sentiment, but I I also think, you know, I always say multiple
things can be true at once. I also think that there is a
piece within the planning side of businesses that people can
lean into in order to do the best possible thing to ensure
stability through economic uncertainty.
And that's, that's the ultimate point.
Like you, you, I think, I think you hit it on the head there
like that. It's being proactive and you can
only be proactive if you know what's happening.
You may not have answers and I know that can be unsatisfying,
but by understanding what's happening and what the most
likely or even most possible outcomes could be, you can, you
can take some steps to prepare. Does this, you know, make it
difficult for for small businesses?
Does it make it difficult for people already working free jobs
or 607080 hours a week? Sure.
What free time are you going to use to, to, you know, watch the
news, read the news and and stay updated on stuff like that.
But maybe that's where we come in to help with that.
But I think that I think that that you're absolutely right.
Knowing what knowing what's happening is part of the is part
of an individual's and a business's ability to be
proactive. Yeah, exactly.
I, I am now also recalling that I did a, an episode on recession
proofing a number of years ago and it's just dawning on me that
this is kind of just the way the economy and life works is
there's this up and down. And of course, we know that
there's a, you know, an administration, there was an
administration change a few years ago and then obviously a
change now, but kind of going back to a prior administration.
And it's, it'll be interesting to see, I think how things shake
out and especially concerning things that I am not well versed
in, like tariffs and spending cuts from a, from the government
specifically. And in terms of like where the
money is spent, I'm not an expert on that either.
But I think it will be interesting to see just how it
all plays out. And I think it's just kind of
like a look ahead, as you said, it's like a wait and see.
It's true, it's true because there's, you know, there's a lot
of specifically with tariffs to, to use that example, like
there's a lot of talk of, of, of pulling the tariffs back, you
know, using it as a threat more than anything, even if it's
implemented and then, you know, revoked 2448 hours later, like
happened last week. I, I do think that just speaking
about tariffs is just not good policy.
It, it, it, it raises prices and once prices go up, they never
come down. And that's hard for anyone to
anyone or any business to, to absorb.
And it just causes a ripple effect to your point, like it
just it, it create not only creates more uncertainty, but
also creates a ripple effect of of economic problems that put
more fear in people and that. Yeah, it's there's nothing
scarier than the idea of financial ruin, right?
Like that's not arguably not to like, you know, have point in
jest to something very serious, but that's like arguably the
scariest thing. To add a little personal light
anecdote here, I actually started baking homemade English
muffins because of how expensive they were.
So. And actually I did a Dang good
job. Like they are some delicious
English muffins. So now I'm like, I'm not
spending all that money on English muffins from a very
notable brand anymore. And nor am I going to buy the
generic ones. I'm just going to make them from
scratch. I'm just a regular old homemaker
over here running a podcast, working full time and stuff like
that. But yeah, find me for some
English muffins. So I mean, it's all of all of
what we've talked about is so it's it's heavy.
It's heavy. Like people want stability, They
want stability in their jobs, they want stability in their
home lives. They want stability in their
relationships and they want stability in their their
country. And you know, just
macroeconomically all of that matters.
So I appreciate you going through some of that with us.
And there is an article from Business Insider that I will
link in the show notes if anyone wants to read a little bit
further on some of the odds around a recession economy from
polymarket. So with that, one of the other
topics that we should discuss is this shift in corporate culture
and Labor Relations. There's been even since we did
some of this research, there's been more to come out of
especially the Labor Relations side of things in terms of who's
been appointed to different things and where the National
Labor Review Board has stood on something.
So just generally speaking, there was an article from Axios
about like being in this big boss era and that managers are
in their big boss era. And I had to take a step back
and say, like, are we really using that phrase?
Like I just have such an issue with the phrase.
I'm like, why? OK.
Anyway, basically it means that worker empowerment has gained
post pandemic. So of course with like the great
resignation and the the visibility into increased union
activity, which we've seen over the last couple of years, those
things have diminished. So what once was kind of like on
this upward trajectory, especially in the last couple of
years, I guess have has now either plateaued or has started
to fall. And then the article also talks
about how work life balance, flexibility and diversity, as we
talked about back in February, are being sidelined.
And there are some key figures who add who are advocating for
rigorous work weeks. And, you know, there is
certainly a display from many at the government level kind of
placing this distrust on remote work.
And so of course, this is all highlighting a broader trend of
industry leaders reclaiming, let's say, quote, UN quote,
control over workplace culture. Because especially when we put
this into context, I think the way that I put it during COVID,
when I hadn't, when I first started my podcast, is that
workers were now in the driver's seat.
And the workers, if we think about this like from a visual
perspective, there's been a bit of a shift where now the the
employee or the worker is in a bit of the passenger seat, maybe
even in the middle seat between, if we're talking about like a
pickup truck between the driver and the passenger side.
And so it it's, it feels like there's a bit of an entanglement
between what the employees are demanding and what bosses, let's
use that term, bosses are expecting, especially when we
see some of these key figures in US society and politics who are,
you know, have really deeply held beliefs on remote work and
work weeks in general. So what are your thoughts?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I, I would start
by saying, never mind the fact that that the president and his
and his largest campaign donor both work remotely.
So like, you know, arguing against remote work is, is kind
of hypocritical. I am not a person who advocates
for, for broad statements across the board that remote work is
bad period or in office work is bad period.
Obviously there are some jobs that require in person
activities. So that's that's not that's not
really up for up for debate or discussion.
But for the jobs that allow for remote or hybrid work, why not
like what is what is the ultimate issue for employers?
In my view, it's control. It's that to your point about
the pendulum swinging, I think the pendulum is swinging as a
society, but I think that we're actually seeing some
simultaneous pendulums sort of emerge because there are some
employers that are keeping that pendulum to the employee side
and saying, you know, what flexibility has worked for us,
remote work has worked for us. Not only have we saved money
because we don't have a large office, we're not, you know,
stocking it with candy and and kegs to keep people in the
office 14 hours a day. Kegs, that's, that's a new
event. I like it.
That's our next segment. I love it.
I'm on board. You know, those, those types of
things are, are being cut. So, so the businesses are saving
money. They're also able to attract
better talent because they're not having to recruit from
within, you know, a 30 mile radius of their office.
They can recruit nationally or globally.
There's just so many benefits when work can be done remotely.
There are so many benefits to both employers and employees and
the companies that see that, the companies that understand that
are the ones that are sort of leading the charge and, and that
pendulum still hanging over there on the employee side.
I would also make the argument that it's actually those types
of companies and those business leaders are not seeing it as a
pendulum swung all the way to employees being in the driver's
seat. They're seeing it as the balance
that companies have been seeking for decades of how do we find
the best talent to work efficiently and to make the
business the most money when possible.
Remote work is often the way to do that.
Yeah, IA 100% agree. Look, I you're always going to
find me advocating for remote work because I don't know that I
would still be working if I weren't remote.
Frankly, you know, if I didn't have to, I don't know that I
would want to miss this time with my daughters.
I've said this very candidly and I am very grateful that I have
that choice and that I have the opportunity to be remote.
That said, I thought about something that I didn't think
about before. So I'm go I'm fully hitting you
with a question that you might be unprepared for.
Lucky you. I'm wondering, do you think now,
of course we still have to talk about something like the public
and private sector elements of this.
Do you? But putting that aside for the
moment, do you think that there's any element of this like
strong arm push against remote work?
That comes from this like ideology around keeping things
like in house, so to speak, meaning onshore in the US Now,
obviously sometimes that is more expensive for businesses because
remote work has enabled businesses to be strategic and
and think globally, which of again, that of course allows
strategy and financial decisions because salaries depending on
where someone's hiring can be very different with the same
level of talent as compared to someone in the US.
So I'm curious, like, do do you get any sense that this could be
a push like a part of a bigger picture that's focusing on jobs
in the US at all? Or am I like pulling something
out of a hat? I don't think you're pulling
something out of a hat. I would say that it's, I agree
with what you're saying that there's the, the possibility
that this is sort of a, a nationalist agenda.
This, this push for in office work.
I think, I think, and, and not to be dismissive of that 'cause
I, I do think there's something to that.
I think the, the core of it is money because I think, I think
the core of it is companies have these long term leases on office
space. They don't want to see it go
empty. They want to, they want to fill
that space. The real estate, the commercial
real estate have all these, all these office spaces, all these
high rises in, in metro areas that are, that are not empty,
You know, they're mostly, mostly still occupied, but they want to
make sure that they have a long term investment.
You know, some buildings cost billions of dollars And like the
property managers want to make sure that, that they're
recouping that investment over, over a couple of decades.
And so they, they want to keep businesses in the office.
And I think that's, that's ultimately what it is.
It is, it's just the core of it anyway is it's just, it's all
it's money. It's always money.
That's a good point. I mean, I can say from, you
know, being in New York, I, I lived in the city during COVID
and I'm from New Jersey. Like this is just home.
Like there's no like escaping the city, so to speak, which
many people did. And in that exodus that
happened, a ton of real estate left became vacant, especially
commercial real estate, to your point.
And businesses did definitely struggle to get people back
because people really enjoyed the flexibility.
There's also what we're seeing with Gen.
Z especially, and maybe even the generation after them
potentially, which I think is Gen.
Alpha maybe, I don't know. I think, I think I'm not sure.
I'm not. I'm I'm too old.
Yeah no same like I just let me know.
Just e-mail me or DM me what it is and it's fine.
Just tell me I'm wrong. I agree.
I want to be too old for it too. They want maximum flexibility.
They want to choose when they come in, they want the ability
to come in, but they also want to be remote and they want to
tell you what number of days are.
They don't even want to commit to a number of days.
They want it to be too like super, completely hyper
flexible, which I I love, But this like doesn't that kind of
work for both? Doesn't that work for the
business and the employee? It absolutely does.
There is tons of data to suggest that that Gen.
X and, and younger or sorry, Gen.
Z and younger are, are are seeking that hybrid environment,
that flexible environment, partly because the office is
traditionally a social space. It is a space to meet new
people, to make some friends and, and because of, I don't
know, technology, phones, computers, game consoles, like
everything, you know, blame it on, on whatever you want.
Younger generations don't have the same social environment, in
person social environment that older generations got in their
youth, partly because of coming, coming of age, coming of, of
working age during the pandemic. That, that certainly played a
role in that. But I think some of those
generations are looking, looking to experience the office, not
every day, not for, you know, 4060 hours a week.
To your point, right, to your point on a flexible basis, you
know what, I've got this group of friends, we all work at the
same company. One of them said they need to go
to the office today and texted us and three others are going to
show up. Like that's the kind of stuff
that they want. I don't, I don't necessarily see
a problem with that because again, to your point, that's,
that's the balance. That's where, that's where
compromise is often times great. And that's a great compromise.
Not fully remote, not fully in office.
Does it mean that you've got to live close to an office?
I would argue not necessarily, because flexibility means that
if you live in yeah, you can figure it out.
If you live in a different state, you know, maybe you go
into the office once a week because you've got family near
the office and, and you're going there, you know, for a long
weekend once, once a month or something like that, like that.
To me, flexibility is determined by what works for the individual
and what works for the company. Yeah, totally agree.
When we think about this and maybe even the economic
uncertainty topic, are there anything, is there anything I
should say, excuse me, that the listeners should think about
when it comes to their businesses?
Is there anything like right now that depending on the sector or
the industry, that that directly impacts them that they need to
be considerate of? I think not.
It's, it's not even from a, from a truly financial perspective, I
think what we talked about before, understanding what's
going on in the country, in the world to be able to make some
proactive steps is, is important.
But I think one thing to sort of know about and be aware of is
relating to what you, one of the things you mentioned earlier the
the National Labor Relations Board and a few years ago there
was a lot of news about non compete agreements and how those
were how those were the federal government said, the Biden
administration said those are probably violating federal law
because they're too restrictive. The new acting general counsel
of the NLRB has said that we're doing away with that, that
policy businesses can now use non competes as they as they
wish. The big caveat to that is that
most non competes fall under state law.
And that's where employers need to be real careful about hearing
this news from the NLRB and being like, oh, OK, we're gonna,
you know, go back to our old ways of, of using non competes
and restricting employees geographically and, and for a
time after they leave. I don't recommend doing that.
Again, broad statement. I don't recommend doing that
because so much non compete, so much non compete law falls under
state law. And so you need to talk with
your employment lawyer and HR consultant or whatever, someone
who is who is knowledgeable about your individual state laws
to make sure that you are adhering to those state laws
regardless of what the the National Labor Relations Board
has said. Right.
It's a good thing to keep, keep a focus on as we continue to see
things probably come up about that.
I mean, that has been quite the topic.
And I'm curious, as we kind of come to a close here, is there
anything else on the horizon that we should kind of keep an
eye out for we, you know, especially thinking about what
our segment might look like next month?
I think there's a lot of, as, as we've talked about, there's a
lot of wait and see right now with, with things that are
happening. And, and one of those things
that I, I anticipate, yes, to your point over the next couple
of months, we will start hearing some, some finality from the
Supreme Court and other, other courts that are currently
hearing cases. One of them that I would keep an
eye on is Ames versus Ohio. That's a Supreme Court case that
they heard oral arguments on it last week or the week before.
The very short version, the plaintiff Ames, is a straight
white woman, and she claims that she was discriminated against
because someone who identifies as LGBTQ plus was promoted and
not her. The court seemed.
I listened to some of the oral arguments.
The court seemed kind of to follow along party lines, but
seems like they may lower the lower the standard.
Essentially the the discrimination standard.
Generally speaking, white people are not discriminated against in
the workforce, and so the bar for claiming discrimination is
slightly higher than for than for minorities who are who are
more often discriminated against in the workforce.
The Supreme Court may just make it an even bar across the board.
Got it. OK.
So definitely a wait and see. I appreciate you walking through
that with us. I had, you know, I have pretty
much no eyes on like from an expertise standpoint on case law
because I'm not an attorney, but thankfully you are.
So I, I'm sure we'll continue to lean into your expertise.
But thank you so much for our very first Policy Pulse segment
and for all the listeners out there.
We really appreciate you tuning in every week in general for the
podcast, but especially for the segment.
And again, you will hopefully see the segment every month.
That's kind of what we're starting with.
It's, it's loose, right? Like if we want to do more, we
will. If we have to do a little bit
less, we will. But you can definitely count on
this for a monthly cadence for now.
And if you liked this episode, please let us know either by DM
or e-mail. You can find all of the contact
info in the show notes, including where you can connect
with Brian and me directly. And if you have any questions
specific to policies in the US or even, and otherwise, maybe we
need to potentially expand because there's a lot,
especially in North America, considering all the
conversations we've had around tariffs.
If there are any questions from other North American residents,
so to speak, let us know and we'll do our best to kind of
guide the conversation along. But again, topics, suggestions,
questions, anything like that, reach out to myself or Brian and
we will see you in a month. And for everyone else who
listens to the podcast regularly, I'll see you for our
regularly scheduled program next week.
Thank you so much, Brian. Really appreciate it.
I'm so glad we're doing the segment.
Thank you, Tracy. Appreciate it.
Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show
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Make sure you share it with them.
Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.