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Welcome to the bringing the human Back To Human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy turn off.
And I've spent my entire professional career in a jar,
each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people
and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create
meaningful outcomes. Listen in.
As I share my own experiences challenge, the status quo and
chat with guests from various Industries about our mission, to
bring the human Back To Human Resources, everyone, welcome
back to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here
for another week. This week, I'm going to do a
little bit of a topic discussion, but also a Q&A
because I've received a couple of emails that I want to make
sure that I get to and then I'm responding to through the
podcast. So and thank you for your emails
for asking. Asking some really good
questions. So first of all, I want to talk
about the four-day work week. The last time, I really talked
about this. In an episode, was back in 2021
before any trials were done before, you know, companies
decided that they were going to start implementing.
And, you know, if you are on LinkedIn and you're in the know
so to speak, then you probably already saw that Bloomberg
released an article that was titled world's Largest four-day
Work. Week trial finds few are going
back and it was about the trial that was done in the UK, where
61 organizations, which is roughly almost 3,000 employees,
voluntarily adopted truncated work from June to December in
2022 and basically these 61 organizations tried essentially,
this four-day work week of these 61 organizations.
Only three organizations decided to pause the experiment and to
are considering, or still considering shorter hours which
is the in this data that was released last week.
And actually, by the time you listen to this, this is now two
weeks prior. So February 20th is when the
article came out and basically of the of these employees who
went through the four-day work week, there was a decrease in
Burnout. Us sleep difficulties and an
increase in overall job satisfaction.
Which if you're surprised by this, unfortunately, I don't
think you've been paying attention.
I am not surprised by this at all.
I think what's really interesting is?
And I guess this is also an important piece to clarify.
So, in this trial just to be really specific of the 61
companies in the UK that participated, they They
basically had the employees work 34 hours a week and they did not
reduce, you know their salary, there's salary was the same and
again there was a report on Lower stress and Better Health,
none of the near 3,000 participants said that they
wanted to go back to five days, none of them all.
Twenty-nine hundred participants wanted to stay at four days per
week, 15, Percent of that population so that they would
not go back regardless of any amount of money offered to them.
That's like, really, really, really impactful statistics or
those are really impactful statistics because when you
think about what companies are always talking about.
It's like, you know, if you're providing this amazing
environment and great pay people will be happy but this study
kind of turns that on its head, right?
Because it's we're seeing that 61 or Has ations almost 3,000
employees participated in this for six months and there were
six fewer hours minimum in their week.
So 34 hours a week and they stated the same salary, they
reported the same if not better productivity.
I mean that's pretty incredible, right?
Because people are saying we're 15% of people are saying that no
amount of money is going to convince them to go back for a
fifth day. So sure, the other 85% of people
might say oh well if you offer me enough I'll go back to that
five days. The reality is is that people
are not going to be able to get any amount of money, right?
So companies are not going to be able to offer enough to make
that fifth day. Enticing for those individuals
and to give you a little bit more context here in the report.
Organizational Revenue was up 35 percent from a year prior.
And Rose by 1.4 percent during the trial.
And of course, you know, Bloomberg's says that or the
article goes on to say that although multi-company measures
of productivity or difficult the organization's rated the impact
of four days schedules as positive averaging 7.5 on a
10-point scale, employee absenteeism dropped from two
days a month 2.7 while turnover fell by more than half, although
the small sample and Broad labor market dynamics, make it
difficult to Isolate the trial effect companies rated the
overall experience and eight point three out of ten.
That's incredible. I mean, we're always looking for
the secret sauce to reducing turnover and you've heard me say
it a million times over that flexibility is the name of the
game, but this trial goes to prove that, I'm not sure how
this would work in the United States, but I would, like to
think that we could do something similar.
I mean, I've seen some companies go to the 32 hour work.
Because with the same salary, I think there I wouldn't be
surprised if the u.s. kind of approach this.
Well, if you go to four days then your salary changes, I
would just wouldn't be surprised.
But that's not the right response because you can do the
same amount of work in 40 hours as you do in 32 or 34.
And I say that because so many things waste our time, think
about how many hours you sit and waste in meetings where you
could have just had had sound time to work on that thing and
then come together. You know, maybe less frequently
or in a way that's more productive.
Most people that I speak to who are frustrated with their work
or who are dissatisfied in their jobs, say that they don't have
enough time to actually get their job done and they're just
doing things that don't feel impactful or efficient.
And I just imagine that a four-day work week would have a
huge impact on that. And I feel like, normally I see,
Companies, technology companies really kind of leading the
charge for being an early adopter to new ideas, New
Concepts, new ways of working, but it would be really nice to
see a non industry specific approach to this in the United
States. I mean, I personally, I've been
talking about this since Tony 21 because I really believe in it.
If I could have my way tomorrow, I would say that all companies
should approach a truly flexible work week and It might sound
like crazy Progressive to say this, but if we are hiring
people that we've invested in that, we have to trust that we
are instilling are, you know, putting our trust in then really
who is why should we say that someone can't work whatever
schedule they want. Some people might want to work
over weekends or some people might want to work just Monday
Tuesday. And then Thursday, I don't know.
Maybe it's Maybe it's unrealistic for most Industries
and for most companies. But in reality, my point is not
to say that people should work whatever the schedule they want,
but instead that they should have autonomy and
self-determination over their schedules.
So, instead of saying, okay, you work Monday to Friday, 9, to 5
remote, or in person, whatever, like, some people are taking
flexibility only to the place in which someone is working, but
not taking it to the next level of like the timing in which
they're working. So if we take it to that next
level, for the timing purposes, who's to say, we couldn't say,
you know, there are certain points of the day, like a
typical business is going to operate between like the hours
of 8 and 6. So there might be things that
come up that you will need to be present for, but the rest of
your day is yours. You need to figure out how to
get your work done, whatever, that means to you, if I'm paying
someone to work. For my company.
I need to be able to trust them and if I can't trust them to
work and do the job, when when the job needs to be done, then
why am I hiring them, right? And of course, there's always
going to be that 10% of people or whatever the statistic is for
those who are not meeting expectations and you have to
manage them and it could be made harder when things are really
flexible, I get that. But I'm not saying to flush the
format completely I'm saying we need to embrace more.
Leti. And of course, I can't forget my
roots. I mean, I come from retail,
right? This type of flexibility might
seem really hard but actually it's not, it's just through
technology that were able to make flexibility more
accessible. And it's through enabling people
to have, you know, the again the self-determination over their
schedules, that will allow them to have true flexibility.
Of course in roles that are customer-facing, where you can't
necessarily Troll when a customer is working, you might
not be able to have the same level of autonomy and
flexibility. I get that.
But when I think about like, even my job or like an HR job,
the the the job is already flexible because someone could
call you at 10:00 at night because something, you know, an
emergency happened. And that's not a 26 that's not
95, right? But it doesn't mean that you're
not going to take the call or doesn't mean that you're not
going to, you know, work at that time.
If It's what the job calls for. So I just think that companies
and really need to think about, okay.
What can they control about flexibility?
What can they influence about flexibility?
And as we've seen in this trial what companies can influence?
And control is the expectation around work the expectation
around when someone is showing up to complete a job that
they've been hired to do. So again, I'm not saying that
all leaders. We'll make this work.
I'm not saying that all Industries are all companies or
all practices would be able to thrive in a fully 1000% flexible
environment, but I do think that the four-day Work Week could
also make someone who has, you know, maybe a job that requires
someone to be in person four-day Work Week could actually be much
more interesting for them. So in ways, I think that this
actually enables flexibility for companies or industries that
historically couldn't be very flexible.
Like I could imagine a world where retailers allowed their
sales associates to pick how many days a week they wanted to
work without a reduction in their pay without a reduction in
their benefits eligibility without a reduction in their,
you know, understood performance and things like that.
I mean, I think it's really compelling and actually I'm
going to have to find the study and I'll link it in the show
notes if I can find it and I'll link of course this article as
you guys know, The show notes. Well, I remember reading
something, I think it was in 2022 about a retailer that
adopted this four-day Work Week approach in the u.s.
I have to find this information because that's exactly what I'm
trying to say. No one is forcing a hand here.
There's no expectation. That four days is more flexible
or you know, lack of business hours is more flexible.
It kind of depends on what works for the business but I mean, I
would love a four-day work week personally, I feel like I've
said it a million times over on this podcast that working 40
hours a week is unnecessary. If you're really being efficient
and productive and I can realize if I add up the hours that I
spend during the day not working at my Max Capacity not working
super efficiently. Like it probably would be that 6
hours 6 to 8 hours. It probably would end up being
that. Week.
Where if I just if I knew I had Monday to Thursday, or Tuesday
to Friday or whatever, that looks like, where I'm working
that for days, I'm probably going to have a much, much more
ink, you know, productive week and an increase in that
productivity and I'm pretty productive person.
And I feel like most of you are probably feeling the same way,
maybe not. I think everyone works in and
does things differently, but You never know again.
I think it depends on what we see as flexibility to me.
It's like, you don't have to force a four-day work week, but
you can offer it and it would be interesting to see if people
accepted well don't. And then on top of that, you
know, I'm sure that a question would come up like, well, how do
you have full coverage in in the company especially if you have
clients customers, Etc. I mean, you could literally
Rotate one group could be Monday to Thursday.
Another group could be Tuesday to Friday.
You switch every 6 months. Like, who cares?
That's the logistical problem, right?
And it's not even a problem. It's just a matter of figuring
it out. I think what really matters is
whether or not companies are going to be not Progressive
enough, but forward-thinking enough to see the benefits of
this, like, the turnover benefits alone.
That's huge. That's a huge selling point and
should be a huge selling point for companies and I would love
to be part of a u.s. trial. I'll if anyone out there is
listening and has a four-day work week for their employees
for yourself. Please write to me.
Email, me contact, HR Tracy.com. I really want to know.
I want to hear the ins and outs and we can keep it confidential
so you don't, you know, share any trade secrets so to speak.
All right, let's get into the Q&A.
So again, I received a few questions from listeners through
email and I'm going to read this first one.
I'm just going to make sure that I don't share anything personal.
So this person actually wants us to be a future episode, which I
definitely can can put on the list, and it's about the subject
of attitudes toward people with disabilities in the workplace
and the stigma there. And we've actually had a ton of
conversations about this. Now, episode 114 was with
Alexandra Gilbert and we talk about ADHD, dyslexia learning
disabilities in the workplace. So, if you haven't listened to
that, make sure you go check it out.
Out. And then also episode 118 is
about navigating like the interactive process and how we
provide an equitable process for those who need accommodations.
So, this person writes I work for a small nonprofit with no HR
department. I had a very upsetting
conversation with my employer, where some extremely oppressive
and stigmatized Views toward people with disabilities, were
shared by my leader, and ended up in an argument.
And since then, I've been pretending that everything is
fine because I We just don't know what to do.
And honestly, or really, I'm not.
Okay, I'm a person with a disability and my boss is aware
of this. I'm wondering whether it's safe
for me to continue working at this organization knowing what
this person's attitudes might be, should I try to address this
problem or ask for clarification around?
What was said? I want to be able to express how
I felt after that conversation and also my concerns about what
was said and how it was stigmatizing, but I'm also very
afraid to do. So I've weighed the pros and
cons this job is really really good for my career goals and I'm
deeply invested in the work I do and the people I serve, but I'm
deeply concerned with the culture and Leadership of the
organization. It does not feel Progressive in
a way that should be given the vulnerable population that we
serve. First of all, I'm really sorry.
Secondly, I'm glad to hear that. This job is a job that you want
to be in because I think, although it makes it probably
feel a little bit more complicated.
It also could potentially help you to feel a little bit.
Like more secure in the next steps.
And I want you to take with a grain of salt that you know, I'm
giving you advice based on how I believe, I would respond and I
can be pretty direct. And I think I've said it before
that. I am not super afraid of
conflict. So, you know, just take that
with a grain of salt that if you approach things differently and
maybe you're not as direct or maybe you are conflict a verse
that you'll probably going to need to like coach yourself to
have these conversations. Here's my advice, I think you
should be really direct about how this whole thing made you
feel and really specific as well.
And I say this because I really believe that people say things
that are, you know, based in stigmas or ignorant, or when
the, you know, people say things that are just absent of facts
because the because they lack knowledge and information.
I've experienced this personally on many different levels, that
impact me personally. And at the end of the day, I
think one of the best things that we can do is help Hope to
educate someone not that, that is your responsibility because
it's not. But if you really are invested
in this job and the population you serve I think not only will
it benefit your leader but it's going to make you feel more
confident and secure in who you are and you can you can say that
you've done everything to make this environment, one that's
more inclusive and you know safer for not only You but
others who might be feeling the same way as you, because
certainly those with and without disabilities can feel the same
effect of, you know, conversations that are
inappropriate or ignorant or stigmatized.
So I would really say to your leader.
How this made you feel that you don't feel safe that it made you
feel really uncomfortable and I don't know maybe there's a you
know, there's no HR department, I hear you.
I hear you on this but I also think especially Really if
you've had a good relationship up until this point with your
leader, I think you could suggest not sensitivity training
but maybe it's that maybe it's like diversity training for
everyone in the organization because it almost sounds like
the population. You serve could be connected in
some way to what you experience or at least maybe is a
vulnerable population that requires more empathy and I
think you can speak on their behalf As well.
And I really encourage you to use your voice because honestly,
whether this is a job that you really love or not, you have a
voice, you've been given a voice for a reason, and I really think
that you should feel comfortable being yourself and speaking up
for yourself. And so I really hope that you
do. And if you don't, I don't think
you should feel bad. But my eye, I think that people
overall benefit and get so much out of Of using their voice and
being who they are and just sticking up for themselves.
And I'm again I'm really sorry that this happened to you.
It's totally not. Okay and you should if you call
it out then you inherently are saying that it's not okay and it
doesn't matter if it's weeks later people will always say oh
well why don't you bring this up in the moment?
Hello I had to process I mean come on get real if your boss
pushes back and says something like that.
You can say listen I mean Put your put yourself in my shoes
like this is not an easy thing to talk about and I honestly
didn't know how I felt and I need time to process and that
shouldn't discredit, what I'm bringing up now.
So email me back. Let me know what you decide to
do and how everything works out. Next question, I work in
California as an HR specialist for an education conglomerate,
let's say, or you know organization, I love the
Experience in empowering employees and your podcast,
thank you so much. Can you please provide me with
additional examples on how to help my employees regarding when
HR should step in? Also do you have an HR cheat
sheet or highlights for quite for questions?
Ranging from short term, long term disability, FMLA simple
interactive process forms return to working requirements and a
ton of other documents thanks in advance.
So I don't have cheat sheets, but I can certainly make those
odds, put some thought into this.
So thank you for the suggestion. I will see if any of the people
that I'm connected with have documents as well but let's get
to your question first. So Examples for when and or how
to help my employees regarding 1hr should step and you know,
it's hard, right? Because what we do is so gray,
everything that we kind of come in contact with is very, you
know, it's very much like a I don't know, a spectrum.
So sometimes it's based on the situation.
And so I would say that in terms of examples for how, how to help
your employees knowing to know, when to step in excuse me, I
think it kind of comes down to building up their confidence.
So if they're, you know, coming to you for every single thing
and they're like oh you know, this happened with this person,
this happened with this teacher. What have you?
I think you can start to use those.
And to say, hey, we've had a few situations like this.
What are, you know, here are the similarities and you're coming
to me because you recognize that there's probably some level at
which we need to support. That's your initial signal and
then instead of giving them the answers right away, it's kind of
like a coaching conversation where you're getting them to
answer their own questions. That is probably one of the best
ways that you can help your employees to navigate when and
how to step in because then They start to think about the process
themselves and they start to answer their own questions.
And on top of that, I think you also could role play with your
employees. Whether it's through, you know,
your your staff meeting or during a regular meeting that
you have bring in examples of things that have come up
recently and have everyone weigh in on it that exposure where,
you know, maybe they haven't had exposure unless it was their
specific example or circumstance, that exposure is
going to give I am an opportunity to train and hear a
different perspective or a way to approach things before
needing to or before even coming across that themselves.
So that would be my recommendation.
It's honestly it kind of just takes time.
It's something I'm sure you know as an HR specialist that it's
over time that we develop the confidence and that we developed
the process around dealing with things that require our
involvement. So I would really encourage you
to create as many training and learning opportunities as
possible and ask questions. Like, ask them if there's
something that they feel a lack of confidence in or insecure
about and that will help you in figuring out where you can help
them and better support them as well.
Let me know if that helped you feel free to email me back and
let me know how things are going for anyone who might have
questions that, you know, if you have not heard the answer to
your question, Or you haven't asked a question before, email
me at contacted HR Tracy.com. Everything is linked in my show
notes as well, so you can just click there.
I love getting questions and it really helps me to understand
where the conversations can go and where, you know, the content
that I'm providing you is most valuable in terms of what we're
discussing. So, thank you so much for
reaching out. I really do appreciate it.
And again, thank you for for being here for another week.
Next week is also a an So just with me, so no guest next week
either, but I really look forward to continuing the
conversation, continuing to ask your, answer your questions and
I hope you have an amazing rest of your week.
Also, before I forget, the miniseries is officially
launched, the open to work miniseries.
So those episodes are coming out on Thursdays, so make sure you
check them out. And if you have anyone in mind,
that could be, you know, that could come on.
Then the miniseries, send them my way.
There is a link in the show notes as well to have the form
submitted for the miniseries and be sure to share those mini
series with people who are hiring or might really be
interested in the person who's open to work.
So with that. Thank you so much.
I'll see you next week for a regularly.
Scheduled typical podcast episode on Tuesdays, and I'll
see you on Thursday for a mini series.
Episode have a great one. Hey, just before you go, don't
forget to subscribe to the show, so that you are the first to
hear when an episode drops each week.
And maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how
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Make sure you share it with them.
Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.