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Welcome to the bringing the 
human Back To Human Resources, 

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podcast, the podcast, all about 
the delicate balance between 

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people and business. 
And quite literally reconnecting

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the to my name is Tracy Ruben, 
and I've spent nearly my entire 

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professional career in h.r., 
join me as I share stories 

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opinions and words of advice 
with you each week. 

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Hi everyone, welcome to the 
podcast. 

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Thank you so much for being 
here. 

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Just a reminder that you should 
follow me on Instagram at HR. 

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Tracy, you can click the link in
my show notes as well to get 

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connected with my website Linked
In All of the Above. 

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So for this week, I am going to 
really focus mostly on some 

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pieces of advice. 
So I've gotten a lot of 

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questions through Instagram, 
mostly and some LinkedIn. 

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This around various topics or on
various topics. 

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So I don't know how long this 
episode will be, I guess we'll 

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see when we get to it but anyway
here we go. 

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I should preface by saying if 
you also have, you know, any 

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questions or want some advice? 
I really try to answer every 

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single DM as quickly and as 
urgently as possible. 

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So I highly encourage that. 
You hit me up, shoot me a DM 

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message me. 
You can even send me an audio 

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message happy to listen. 
Actually, sometimes I'll send 

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those back. 
Anyway, one of the first 

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questions that I received 
recently was, really around a 

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person, being allegedly, accused
of creating a hostile work 

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environment. 
So that is obviously super 

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serious. 
And this person basically said 

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that they vehemently disagree 
with the accusations and that 

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they felt that the way the HR 
person brought it up was very 

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bizarre. 
So the way that the HR person 

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brought it up, I agree. 
Pretty bizarre. 

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They said that it was part of a 
performance review through an 

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email late on a Friday and the 
person was off on that Friday. 

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So Don't really know what the HR
team expected when they sent 

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that or what the HR Director in 
this case expected. 

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But it's really not the way that
you go about those types of 

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situations and what was even 
weirder. 

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And I did ask this person out 
right about this is that they 

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were not placed on a suspension 
and that's like, super, super 

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strange because if you are as an
HR person, accusing someone of 

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Lee creating a hostile work 
environment threatening and 

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belittle using threatening and 
belittling language. 

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I mean these were some of the 
phrases in that email because 

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the person did send them that 
email to me. 

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I mean, you're placing that 
person off suspension, unless 

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there is a reason that you have,
you know, maybe you've already 

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investigated it and it's 
unsubstantiated. 

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And you're providing this 
information to the person. 

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I mean, even still, that's a 
weird way to go about things. 

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So my Vice to the person. 
And the situation was basically 

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to say, hey, thank you, HR 
director for your email. 

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You know, this is my 
acknowledgement of receipt of 

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your email also, you know, as 
you can imagine, I'm extremely 

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upset by, you know, these 
alleged concerns because I care 

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a lot for my team and the people
at so-and-so company, and it's 

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really important to me that we 
meet in order for to gain some 

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clarity on. 
The situation. 

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And I think I'd said something 
like, you know or suggested 

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saying something like you know, 
I these are these concerns. 

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I take these concerns extremely 
seriously, and I think I said, I

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take these alleged concerns 
super seriously and it's my 

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priority that we work together 
to move forward because my, my 

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thought process to the 
individuals that, you know, if 

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they're not placing you on a 
paid suspension or suspension 

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in, All then either they don't 
have, they don't have any 

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information and they just, you 
know, I don't know. 

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Their this is how they normally 
go through this type of 

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situation or they're really, 
really, really not sure what's 

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going on. 
And they're trying to gain your 

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perspective at any rate and I 
said this to this person at any 

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rate. 
This HR director is not handling

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this correctly because actually 
you should be on a suspension if

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these concerns are actually 
being brought up by employees or

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if they've been observed and 
this person totally agreed with 

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me. 
And I also said, well, did you 

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get terminated like maybe that's
why you're not suspended and 

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they were like, no II didn't get
terminated either. 

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I'm just on PTO and they sent me
this email. 

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So I'll have to update you with 
what happens there. 

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But it's that's really, really 
bizarre. 

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So I'm sharing this 
question-and-answer piece of 

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advice. 
I With this person situation 

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because I'm sure that this 
happens more often than I 

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realize and my best advice to 
you if this happens to you where

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someone is alleging, you know, 
hostile work environment or 

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threatening language or you know
that someone has brought up 

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these concerns that you don't 
say anything. 

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In writing that you could later 
regret or put anything in 

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writing that actually admits 
guilt especially if you feel or 

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no. 
Know that you have not done 

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something, if you have acted in 
those ways, then you I just 

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think as a human being like the 
right thing to do is to be 

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accountable and to first and 
foremost not do anything like 

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that, but if you have to own it 
because those were the actions 

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that you decided to take, but if
you did not take those actions 

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or feel that, you know, you've 
been acting totally within the 

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guidance. 
And the, the scope of the 

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policies for example, and what's
tolerable and appropriate, Then 

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you should be very careful, not 
to put anything in writing that 

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you, you know, wouldn't say in 
six months is, was the right 

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thing to say. 
So it's always better in my 

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experience. 
Even on the HR side of things to

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have a conversation. 
And so, flipping, the script 

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there, if you're an HR person, I
would strongly suggest that you 

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also don't put things in 
writing, that could hold you, to

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those things specifically. 
So let's say these two parties 

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end up going into litigation. 
Let's say the person who came to

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me, Sue's their company and the 
company that has has, you know, 

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hires their lawyers or ask their
lawyers to defend them or figure

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out. 
You know what, the next best 

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step is those emails. 
Whatever you put into writing, 

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actually can have a huge impact 
on the way in which you are able

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to mitigate risk for your 
company. 

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So you want to make sure that 
you're not putting anything in 

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writing. 
Either and side of the fence, 

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whether you're the employee in 
the situation, or the HR person,

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keep things vague when you can 
and don't put things in writing 

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that you're potentially later 
going to regret because they 

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pigeon-holed you into some sort 
of accountability or, you know, 

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acknowledgement of guilt when 
they're potentially, didn't need

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to be. 
So, on either side of the fence,

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that's my best advice and I have
seen HR. 

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Personals and employees put 
things in writing that I'm sure 

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that they later regret it. 
So if you are in a position 

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today where maybe you're even 
dealing with something like this

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right now, take a step back and 
really think about, okay? 

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What is going to be an evergreen
response. 

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That's going to put my company 
or myself depending on who you 

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are in this situation in the 
best position to move forward in

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a way that works best for me. 
So if you're the employee in a 

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way that works best for you, if 
you're the company, in a way 

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that mitigates risk for the 
company, Or I should say if 

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you're an HR person in a way 
that were mitigating risk for 

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the company and or, you know, 
removes the acknowledgement of 

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guilt. 
If there is the possibility that

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there was some sort of guilt to 
acknowledge, they're certainly, 

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just like I said, I think 
employers should, you know, be 

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accountable when they've done 
something, they shouldn't have 

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done with companies, it's a 
little bit different, you know, 

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and this might this might sound 
controversial. 

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Well, but actually, if you are 
in a position, like an, you 

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know, an HR person or a decision
maker for a business, you have 

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to be careful. 
If you do, take accountability 

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for certain things because that 
could actually increase the risk

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for the company from a legal 
perspective. 

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So I still believe that everyone
should be accountable for their 

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actions but you do want to make 
sure that you are cognizant of 

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the actions that you are taking 
accountability for. 

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Are they your personal actions? 
Are they the company's actions? 

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And I would totally discouraged,
anyone who is a representative 

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of a company from acknowledging,
any accountability anywhere on 

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behalf of the company even if 
it's a positive thing. 

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Like I think it's different if 
it's your personal 

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acknowledgement in your personal
accountability but you should be

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very careful because, you know, 
companies can get a little weird

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about all that stuff so you want
to be you know just be cautious 

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anything in writing. 
Lives forever. 

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So just keep that in mind. 
So I hope that piece of advice 

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helps you today or in the long 
run. 

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The second series of questions 
that I received from someone or 

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actually a little bit more 
upsetting because they involve 

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this person's leader or 
leadership team specifically and

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intentionally violating laws. 
So we're not just talking about 

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policies, we are Hang about 
state government laws. 

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I want to preface this whole 
section by saying if you are an 

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HR leader, if you are a manager,
if you are in a decision-making 

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role, it is your obligation to 
know the laws that you are 

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obligated to uphold. 
So whether it's meal break laws,

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in your State schedule, change 
laws in your state, Flsa or Fair

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labor standards, act blah, 
meaning who is defined as salary

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or hourly exempt or non-exempt 
overtime eligible. 

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Not overtime eligible. 
Those are your core 

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responsibilities and obligations
as a person who manages and 

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supports people, doesn't matter.
If you're not an HR, you have an

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obligation to know all of those 
specifics as well. 

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So, for example, if you are a 
manager not an HR, And you work 

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in British Columbia or you work 
in New York. 

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You should know specifically how
many hours an employee needs to 

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work. 
Before they receive a meal 

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break. 
You should know specifically 

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what requirements necessitate 
when someone is overtime 

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eligible or not. 
You should know how many hours a

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person has to work before their 
overtime eligible. 

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You should know how many hours 
they have to work to beerus 

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eligible for double time. 
For example, those are all 

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within your obligations. 
So in this question that the 

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person sent me, there is clear 
violation, based on what they're

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sharing with me. 
Of course, I only know, one side

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of the story, but clear 
violation and intentional 

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violation being out of 
compliance of state and 

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government regulated laws and 
policies. 

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So when I'm not going to give 
specifics because the person 

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asked to, you know, keep things 
as discreet as possible. 

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But what I will say is that if 
you are You are an employee 

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where and you're experiencing 
the same situation that this 

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person is were their leader, is 
specifically not following the 

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laws. 
And actually this person has 

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already shared that they have 
shared their concerns with their

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leader, and leadership team 
around some of these legal 

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non-compliance issues or being 
out of compliance. 

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So let's say you've already done
that. 

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You have Right to escalate. 
And whether it's the first step 

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I should say is like, you should
escalate then to your HR 

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Partners. 
You should escalate to another 

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member of the leadership team. 
If you can, if there are other, 

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you know, layers there, if 
there's a board of directors on 

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a larger organization, you 
should escalate to them. 

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If there's a hotline and animus 
hotline confidential hotline 

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sure report their, if you've 
done all of those things or if 

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those things don't Don't exist 
and you've reported escalated 

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your report to the highest 
extent of your company's 

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hierarchy. 
Let's say you have every right 

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to go to the labor board, you 
have every right to go to your 

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state or province has support or
board that helps with employee 

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disputes or employment disputes 
employment issues. 

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And I say that because, you 
know, it is again, it is the 

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obligation of the leader of the 
HR person, if there is an HR 

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person that in the organization,
it is the obligation for them to

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escalate and address those 
concerns. 

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Now, if you are an HR person in 
this situation and you've had to

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escalate those concerns, the 
same goes for you. 

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You have every obligation to 
make sure that there is 

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compliance with the law and if 
you have addressed concerns, 

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where those laws are not being 
upheld and you are now out of 

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compliance and And the 
leadership team is unwilling to 

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change and actually doesn't see 
the urgency and changing. 

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Then again, you have every right
and escalating this outside of 

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your organization. 
What I will share is that, 

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although retaliation is illegal.
In many cases in most cases 

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violates company policy probably
across the board, especially if 

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your company has an established 
set of policies or handbook, you

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should be Prepare that your type
of employment, the feeling that 

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you get at work will change. 
And that's not to say that you, 

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I mean, everyone should report 
concerns bottom line doesn't 

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matter. 
Whether you're worried about 

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retaliation or not because you 
should not be retaliated 

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against. 
However, if you are escalating 

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those concerns, you should know 
that you probably will not 

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remain anonymous and that's, I 
guess. 

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That's really what I'm trying to
say. 

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You probably won't remain 
anonymous if you go. 

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Beyond the scope of your 
organization and you and maybe 

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you will, maybe you would remain
anonymous but I would imagine 

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that if you have to go beyond 
the scope of your organization, 

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it might be a smaller 
organization and you know it can

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be a little bit tough when you 
work in a smaller place. 

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But anyway, be prepared that you
know, worst case scenario, 

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you're not Anonymous and that 
you have to then talk through 

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these things face to face 
head-on. 

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And I encourage you to do that. 
Everyone deserves Loves to have 

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and to work in an environment 
that is healthy. 

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That is safe that takes care of 
its people. 

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Everyone has that, right? 
So you do have an obligation and

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an opportunity. 
If you've already addressed or 

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escalated your concerns and 
there has not been a formal 

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investigation or there, has not 
been any change over time. 

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You have every opportunity to 
report it. 

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So I would think if you are 
going beyond the scope of your 

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Ization to report concerns where
the laws are not being upheld 

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that you probably are not very 
happy there to begin with, and 

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you should start your job 
search. 

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So, maybe that that happens in 
tandem. 

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Maybe you're doing your job 
search. 

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While you're reporting these 
concerns, but I won, it 

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encourage you to always do the 
right thing. 

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Always report your concerns 
internally first that is the 

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best way to go. 
I would never encourage you to 

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report externally first, unless 
there is a seriously, Situation 

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that's happening. 
And you don't have anyone 

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internally that you can report 
to otherwise internally report 

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your issue. 
If your issue is not being 

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addressed with urgency depending
on the situation then yes you 

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should go outside just as an as 
an employee. 

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I think that's the right thing 
to do, but especially if you're 

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a member of the leadership, team
are the HR team, and you're 

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seeing those things, then. 
Yes, I also would do that. 

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But yeah, I think it would be 
naive to assume. 

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Assume that, you know, nothing 
would you know that everything 

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would change for the better and 
that there wouldn't be any 

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impact on your experience. 
Again, retaliation is 

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intolerable and there are 
serious lawsuits that come of 

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retaliation cases or from 
retaliation. 

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Let's say like if someone is has
proven that they've been 

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retaliated against their have 
been very clear wins in 

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litigation against, you know, 
because of retaliation And so, I

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would say that that 99% of the 
time will not happen, but if 

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you're in an environment where 
already the law is being 

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neglected, and these concerns 
have been addressed, then you 

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00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:03,200
should probably just for the 
betterment of yourself and 

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putting yourself in the best 
situation possible to be able to

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not only like protect yourself 
but also do the right thing and 

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Report these concerns so that 
others don't have to. 

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Perience. 
The same things you should 

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probably just plan to find a 
different job and be in a better

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environment and know that you 
still did the right thing. 

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Even if you leave, you did the 
right thing because you've 

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reported a concern and if it's 
beyond the scope of the 

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00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,800
organization because the 
organization internally wasn't 

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00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,800
handling it, then that means 
that someone is going to make 

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sure that it gets handled and 
fixed. 

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It's not a perfect solution. 
We hope that labor boards like 

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when they have to be put Then 
that they do the right thing, 

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but it does. 
Unfortunately kind of come down 

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to the person in charge. 
I mean, in private companies, I 

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actually don't really know how 
it works. 

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I mean, maybe they receive 
citations and fines, I know that

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00:18:56,900 --> 00:19:00,200
that's definitely true, but if 
it's a private organization, 

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which I'm not totally clear 
whether or not this person Works

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00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:06,500
in a public or private 
organization, but if it is a 

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00:19:06,508 --> 00:19:09,500
private organization, even if 
their let's say they're fine, 

312
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:12,000
twenty thousand dollars for 
various violations, depending on

313
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the number of violations. 
Nations. 

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It doesn't mean that they're 
going to permanently change, 

315
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,600
actually, the best case scenario
would potentially be to 

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00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:24,900
recommend that they bring on an 
HR consultant or an HR Director.

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00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:30,700
Someone to manage all of the 
legal compliance, you know, 

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00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:34,500
issues and and responsibilities 
and requirements because it is a

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00:19:34,508 --> 00:19:36,300
lot. 
It's a lot for someone who 

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00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:41,900
potentially is not in h.r., but 
I think that again, this comes 

321
00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:45,100
back to every Every leader, 
every person having an 

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00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:49,000
obligation to, you know, toe the
line and know where the law 

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00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,000
starts and stops and based on 
what this person shared with me,

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00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,900
it's very clear that this person
this leader is making very 

325
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:01,900
specific decisions, to 
intentionally neglect negate the

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00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:06,800
law and that's not okay and this
person has internally reported 

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it and so I would certainly 
encourage them to escalate to 

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what you know what? 
Every means necessary in order 

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to, you know, have have a 
compliant workplace because it 

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does. 
When companies and organizations

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are out of compliance with state
laws, it creates an incredible 

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00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,900
amount of hostility and tension 
and I'm sure creates tenth 

333
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:33,400
turnover for example, but it's 
certainly creates a hostile work

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environment and actually, that 
is equally as intolerable and 

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00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,100
employees. 
Again, they have a right to be 

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00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:42,700
in an environment that's happy 
healthy. 

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00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,700
The compliant, you know, and 
we'll take care of them and when

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00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,500
I say, take care of employees, 
it doesn't mean that you're 

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00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:51,800
going to give every employee 
Healthcare benefits. 

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00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,600
No, it means that you're going 
to give them a good place to 

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00:20:54,600 --> 00:21:00,100
work, devoid of hostility and 
tension and non-compliance. 

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So if you are listening to this 
and you're leader and you can't 

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00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:09,200
say with 100% certainty that you
are creating a positive work 

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00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,100
environment for your employees, 
you are doing something wrong 

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00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:15,800
and you need to Change. 
So, you know, that might sound 

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00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,700
harsh but someone's got to tell 
you. 

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00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:19,700
So if it's going to be me, let 
it be me. 

348
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But you have to change if you're
not creating that or if you're 

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00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,900
not in the position to make 
decisions. 

350
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:29,300
But you have been, you know, 
these types of things have been 

351
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:33,100
reported to you and you haven't 
done anything about it. 

352
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:37,000
You are just as wrong as the 
person actively working against 

353
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,100
the law. 
So you also need to change. 

354
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:41,900
You need to be part of the 
change. 

355
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:46,300
And so You too if you're 
listening and you have had these

356
00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:49,200
types of concerns reported to 
you and you've Ness collated 

357
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,000
them or you have not applied 
pressure to make sure that 

358
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,000
there's some sort of change to 
ensure that those things stop. 

359
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,500
And that there is, you know, a 
positive work environment for 

360
00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:03,400
all employees. 
Then you have an obligation to, 

361
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,200
you know, to do better and to do
more. 

362
00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,200
I mean, imagine if you were the 
employee in the situation 

363
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,700
reporting these concerns and 
Your Leader didn't do anything 

364
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:16,600
about it. 
I mean that certainly would not 

365
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:22,000
feel good so we're at we're at 
the time for this week's 

366
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,300
episode. 
Those two situations are similar

367
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:32,600
and yet so different my best 
advice to you whether you're an 

368
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,100
employee, a manager and HR 
person is to just do the right 

369
00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:40,000
thing. 
Do the right thing, you know, 

370
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,700
everything is available to you 
online. 

371
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:46,100
Fine. 
You can Google every question 

372
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,300
that you have and find an answer
to it. 

373
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,400
You can message me. 
You can ask me. 

374
00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:56,300
Hey, does this, you know? 
Do these people qualify as as 

375
00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:58,600
part-time, do they qualify as 
full-time? 

376
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,900
Like I'm happy to answer any 
question Under the Sun does like

377
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,300
do these is this t-shirt 
professional? 

378
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:07,900
Like, I don't care what question
it is. 

379
00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:10,800
I'm happy to answer, but do the 
right thing, if you're not 

380
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,600
putting in the due diligence, if
you are Not doing your due 

381
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,400
diligence to do, the right 
thing. 

382
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,300
You are part of the problem, and
I feel like, you know, this is 

383
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:24,400
the 38th episode, we've talked a
lot about navigating certain 

384
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,100
situations, but we haven't quite
talked about if you The Listener

385
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,700
are part of the solution. 
So, I just hope that after this 

386
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:35,100
episode, you think about your 
own actions, and you think 

387
00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:38,900
about, am I being part of the 
solution or am I not being part 

388
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:41,800
of the solution? 
Because unless you can say, yes,

389
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,700
I am being part of the Solution,
you are a part of the problem. 

390
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,000
So I don't know if these two 
individuals are going to listen 

391
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,600
to this episode. 
They might, they might not some 

392
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,200
people actually follow me on 
Instagram. 

393
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,000
Don't listen to the podcast at 
all, so maybe I'll send them 

394
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,100
this episode. 
Hopefully, this helps. 

395
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,200
I'm sure this will help more 
than just those two individuals 

396
00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:04,500
at any rate. 
Again, you can follow me on 

397
00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:08,600
Instagram at HR. 
Tracy, I will have so much more 

398
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,900
content coming, hopefully, in a 
few weeks. 

399
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:12,400
The next coming weeks, I should 
say. 

400
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:16,700
I'm hoping to actually do a bit 
of a recap on the last 40 

401
00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:20,300
episodes so we'll see how it 
goes because in two weeks from 

402
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,400
now I'll be on my 40th episode, 
which is insane. 

403
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,800
Anyway. 
I hope you had a have a lovely 

404
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,900
week ahead of you and if I don't
connect with you on Instagram 

405
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:32,900
and I will see you right back 
here next week. 

406
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:35,600
Don't forget to rate review And 
subscribe wherever you're 

407
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,500
listening to this podcast and we
will speak soon. 

408
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:39,700
See you next week.