Welcome to the bringing the human Back To Human Resources,
podcast, the podcast, all about the delicate balance between
people and business. And quite literally reconnecting
the to my name is Tracy Ruben, and I've spent nearly my entire
professional career in h.r., join me as I share stories
opinions and words of advice with you each week.
Hi everyone, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for being here.
Just a reminder that you should follow me on Instagram at HR.
Tracy, you can click the link in my show notes as well to get
connected with my website Linked In All of the Above.
So for this week, I am going to really focus mostly on some
pieces of advice. So I've gotten a lot of
questions through Instagram, mostly and some LinkedIn.
This around various topics or on various topics.
So I don't know how long this episode will be, I guess we'll
see when we get to it but anyway here we go.
I should preface by saying if you also have, you know, any
questions or want some advice? I really try to answer every
single DM as quickly and as urgently as possible.
So I highly encourage that. You hit me up, shoot me a DM
message me. You can even send me an audio
message happy to listen. Actually, sometimes I'll send
those back. Anyway, one of the first
questions that I received recently was, really around a
person, being allegedly, accused of creating a hostile work
environment. So that is obviously super
serious. And this person basically said
that they vehemently disagree with the accusations and that
they felt that the way the HR person brought it up was very
bizarre. So the way that the HR person
brought it up, I agree. Pretty bizarre.
They said that it was part of a performance review through an
email late on a Friday and the person was off on that Friday.
So Don't really know what the HR team expected when they sent
that or what the HR Director in this case expected.
But it's really not the way that you go about those types of
situations and what was even weirder.
And I did ask this person out right about this is that they
were not placed on a suspension and that's like, super, super
strange because if you are as an HR person, accusing someone of
Lee creating a hostile work environment threatening and
belittle using threatening and belittling language.
I mean these were some of the phrases in that email because
the person did send them that email to me.
I mean, you're placing that person off suspension, unless
there is a reason that you have, you know, maybe you've already
investigated it and it's unsubstantiated.
And you're providing this information to the person.
I mean, even still, that's a weird way to go about things.
So my Vice to the person. And the situation was basically
to say, hey, thank you, HR director for your email.
You know, this is my acknowledgement of receipt of
your email also, you know, as you can imagine, I'm extremely
upset by, you know, these alleged concerns because I care
a lot for my team and the people at so-and-so company, and it's
really important to me that we meet in order for to gain some
clarity on. The situation.
And I think I'd said something like, you know or suggested
saying something like you know, I these are these concerns.
I take these concerns extremely seriously, and I think I said, I
take these alleged concerns super seriously and it's my
priority that we work together to move forward because my, my
thought process to the individuals that, you know, if
they're not placing you on a paid suspension or suspension
in, All then either they don't have, they don't have any
information and they just, you know, I don't know.
Their this is how they normally go through this type of
situation or they're really, really, really not sure what's
going on. And they're trying to gain your
perspective at any rate and I said this to this person at any
rate. This HR director is not handling
this correctly because actually you should be on a suspension if
these concerns are actually being brought up by employees or
if they've been observed and this person totally agreed with
me. And I also said, well, did you
get terminated like maybe that's why you're not suspended and
they were like, no II didn't get terminated either.
I'm just on PTO and they sent me this email.
So I'll have to update you with what happens there.
But it's that's really, really bizarre.
So I'm sharing this question-and-answer piece of
advice. I With this person situation
because I'm sure that this happens more often than I
realize and my best advice to you if this happens to you where
someone is alleging, you know, hostile work environment or
threatening language or you know that someone has brought up
these concerns that you don't say anything.
In writing that you could later regret or put anything in
writing that actually admits guilt especially if you feel or
no. Know that you have not done
something, if you have acted in those ways, then you I just
think as a human being like the right thing to do is to be
accountable and to first and foremost not do anything like
that, but if you have to own it because those were the actions
that you decided to take, but if you did not take those actions
or feel that, you know, you've been acting totally within the
guidance. And the, the scope of the
policies for example, and what's tolerable and appropriate, Then
you should be very careful, not to put anything in writing that
you, you know, wouldn't say in six months is, was the right
thing to say. So it's always better in my
experience. Even on the HR side of things to
have a conversation. And so, flipping, the script
there, if you're an HR person, I would strongly suggest that you
also don't put things in writing, that could hold you, to
those things specifically. So let's say these two parties
end up going into litigation. Let's say the person who came to
me, Sue's their company and the company that has has, you know,
hires their lawyers or ask their lawyers to defend them or figure
out. You know what, the next best
step is those emails. Whatever you put into writing,
actually can have a huge impact on the way in which you are able
to mitigate risk for your company.
So you want to make sure that you're not putting anything in
writing. Either and side of the fence,
whether you're the employee in the situation, or the HR person,
keep things vague when you can and don't put things in writing
that you're potentially later going to regret because they
pigeon-holed you into some sort of accountability or, you know,
acknowledgement of guilt when they're potentially, didn't need
to be. So, on either side of the fence,
that's my best advice and I have seen HR.
Personals and employees put things in writing that I'm sure
that they later regret it. So if you are in a position
today where maybe you're even dealing with something like this
right now, take a step back and really think about, okay?
What is going to be an evergreen response.
That's going to put my company or myself depending on who you
are in this situation in the best position to move forward in
a way that works best for me. So if you're the employee in a
way that works best for you, if you're the company, in a way
that mitigates risk for the company, Or I should say if
you're an HR person in a way that were mitigating risk for
the company and or, you know, removes the acknowledgement of
guilt. If there is the possibility that
there was some sort of guilt to acknowledge, they're certainly,
just like I said, I think employers should, you know, be
accountable when they've done something, they shouldn't have
done with companies, it's a little bit different, you know,
and this might this might sound controversial.
Well, but actually, if you are in a position, like an, you
know, an HR person or a decision maker for a business, you have
to be careful. If you do, take accountability
for certain things because that could actually increase the risk
for the company from a legal perspective.
So I still believe that everyone should be accountable for their
actions but you do want to make sure that you are cognizant of
the actions that you are taking accountability for.
Are they your personal actions? Are they the company's actions?
And I would totally discouraged, anyone who is a representative
of a company from acknowledging, any accountability anywhere on
behalf of the company even if it's a positive thing.
Like I think it's different if it's your personal
acknowledgement in your personal accountability but you should be
very careful because, you know, companies can get a little weird
about all that stuff so you want to be you know just be cautious
anything in writing. Lives forever.
So just keep that in mind. So I hope that piece of advice
helps you today or in the long run.
The second series of questions that I received from someone or
actually a little bit more upsetting because they involve
this person's leader or leadership team specifically and
intentionally violating laws. So we're not just talking about
policies, we are Hang about state government laws.
I want to preface this whole section by saying if you are an
HR leader, if you are a manager, if you are in a decision-making
role, it is your obligation to know the laws that you are
obligated to uphold. So whether it's meal break laws,
in your State schedule, change laws in your state, Flsa or Fair
labor standards, act blah, meaning who is defined as salary
or hourly exempt or non-exempt overtime eligible.
Not overtime eligible. Those are your core
responsibilities and obligations as a person who manages and
supports people, doesn't matter. If you're not an HR, you have an
obligation to know all of those specifics as well.
So, for example, if you are a manager not an HR, And you work
in British Columbia or you work in New York.
You should know specifically how many hours an employee needs to
work. Before they receive a meal
break. You should know specifically
what requirements necessitate when someone is overtime
eligible or not. You should know how many hours a
person has to work before their overtime eligible.
You should know how many hours they have to work to beerus
eligible for double time. For example, those are all
within your obligations. So in this question that the
person sent me, there is clear violation, based on what they're
sharing with me. Of course, I only know, one side
of the story, but clear violation and intentional
violation being out of compliance of state and
government regulated laws and policies.
So when I'm not going to give specifics because the person
asked to, you know, keep things as discreet as possible.
But what I will say is that if you are You are an employee
where and you're experiencing the same situation that this
person is were their leader, is specifically not following the
laws. And actually this person has
already shared that they have shared their concerns with their
leader, and leadership team around some of these legal
non-compliance issues or being out of compliance.
So let's say you've already done that.
You have Right to escalate. And whether it's the first step
I should say is like, you should escalate then to your HR
Partners. You should escalate to another
member of the leadership team. If you can, if there are other,
you know, layers there, if there's a board of directors on
a larger organization, you should escalate to them.
If there's a hotline and animus hotline confidential hotline
sure report their, if you've done all of those things or if
those things don't Don't exist and you've reported escalated
your report to the highest extent of your company's
hierarchy. Let's say you have every right
to go to the labor board, you have every right to go to your
state or province has support or board that helps with employee
disputes or employment disputes employment issues.
And I say that because, you know, it is again, it is the
obligation of the leader of the HR person, if there is an HR
person that in the organization, it is the obligation for them to
escalate and address those concerns.
Now, if you are an HR person in this situation and you've had to
escalate those concerns, the same goes for you.
You have every obligation to make sure that there is
compliance with the law and if you have addressed concerns,
where those laws are not being upheld and you are now out of
compliance and And the leadership team is unwilling to
change and actually doesn't see the urgency and changing.
Then again, you have every right and escalating this outside of
your organization. What I will share is that,
although retaliation is illegal. In many cases in most cases
violates company policy probably across the board, especially if
your company has an established set of policies or handbook, you
should be Prepare that your type of employment, the feeling that
you get at work will change. And that's not to say that you,
I mean, everyone should report concerns bottom line doesn't
matter. Whether you're worried about
retaliation or not because you should not be retaliated
against. However, if you are escalating
those concerns, you should know that you probably will not
remain anonymous and that's, I guess.
That's really what I'm trying to say.
You probably won't remain anonymous if you go.
Beyond the scope of your organization and you and maybe
you will, maybe you would remain anonymous but I would imagine
that if you have to go beyond the scope of your organization,
it might be a smaller organization and you know it can
be a little bit tough when you work in a smaller place.
But anyway, be prepared that you know, worst case scenario,
you're not Anonymous and that you have to then talk through
these things face to face head-on.
And I encourage you to do that. Everyone deserves Loves to have
and to work in an environment that is healthy.
That is safe that takes care of its people.
Everyone has that, right? So you do have an obligation and
an opportunity. If you've already addressed or
escalated your concerns and there has not been a formal
investigation or there, has not been any change over time.
You have every opportunity to report it.
So I would think if you are going beyond the scope of your
Ization to report concerns where the laws are not being upheld
that you probably are not very happy there to begin with, and
you should start your job search.
So, maybe that that happens in tandem.
Maybe you're doing your job search.
While you're reporting these concerns, but I won, it
encourage you to always do the right thing.
Always report your concerns internally first that is the
best way to go. I would never encourage you to
report externally first, unless there is a seriously, Situation
that's happening. And you don't have anyone
internally that you can report to otherwise internally report
your issue. If your issue is not being
addressed with urgency depending on the situation then yes you
should go outside just as an as an employee.
I think that's the right thing to do, but especially if you're
a member of the leadership, team are the HR team, and you're
seeing those things, then. Yes, I also would do that.
But yeah, I think it would be naive to assume.
Assume that, you know, nothing would you know that everything
would change for the better and that there wouldn't be any
impact on your experience. Again, retaliation is
intolerable and there are serious lawsuits that come of
retaliation cases or from retaliation.
Let's say like if someone is has proven that they've been
retaliated against their have been very clear wins in
litigation against, you know, because of retaliation And so, I
would say that that 99% of the time will not happen, but if
you're in an environment where already the law is being
neglected, and these concerns have been addressed, then you
should probably just for the betterment of yourself and
putting yourself in the best situation possible to be able to
not only like protect yourself but also do the right thing and
Report these concerns so that others don't have to.
Perience. The same things you should
probably just plan to find a different job and be in a better
environment and know that you still did the right thing.
Even if you leave, you did the right thing because you've
reported a concern and if it's beyond the scope of the
organization because the organization internally wasn't
handling it, then that means that someone is going to make
sure that it gets handled and fixed.
It's not a perfect solution. We hope that labor boards like
when they have to be put Then that they do the right thing,
but it does. Unfortunately kind of come down
to the person in charge. I mean, in private companies, I
actually don't really know how it works.
I mean, maybe they receive citations and fines, I know that
that's definitely true, but if it's a private organization,
which I'm not totally clear whether or not this person Works
in a public or private organization, but if it is a
private organization, even if their let's say they're fine,
twenty thousand dollars for various violations, depending on
the number of violations. Nations.
It doesn't mean that they're going to permanently change,
actually, the best case scenario would potentially be to
recommend that they bring on an HR consultant or an HR Director.
Someone to manage all of the legal compliance, you know,
issues and and responsibilities and requirements because it is a
lot. It's a lot for someone who
potentially is not in h.r., but I think that again, this comes
back to every Every leader, every person having an
obligation to, you know, toe the line and know where the law
starts and stops and based on what this person shared with me,
it's very clear that this person this leader is making very
specific decisions, to intentionally neglect negate the
law and that's not okay and this person has internally reported
it and so I would certainly encourage them to escalate to
what you know what? Every means necessary in order
to, you know, have have a compliant workplace because it
does. When companies and organizations
are out of compliance with state laws, it creates an incredible
amount of hostility and tension and I'm sure creates tenth
turnover for example, but it's certainly creates a hostile work
environment and actually, that is equally as intolerable and
employees. Again, they have a right to be
in an environment that's happy healthy.
The compliant, you know, and we'll take care of them and when
I say, take care of employees, it doesn't mean that you're
going to give every employee Healthcare benefits.
No, it means that you're going to give them a good place to
work, devoid of hostility and tension and non-compliance.
So if you are listening to this and you're leader and you can't
say with 100% certainty that you are creating a positive work
environment for your employees, you are doing something wrong
and you need to Change. So, you know, that might sound
harsh but someone's got to tell you.
So if it's going to be me, let it be me.
But you have to change if you're not creating that or if you're
not in the position to make decisions.
But you have been, you know, these types of things have been
reported to you and you haven't done anything about it.
You are just as wrong as the person actively working against
the law. So you also need to change.
You need to be part of the change.
And so You too if you're listening and you have had these
types of concerns reported to you and you've Ness collated
them or you have not applied pressure to make sure that
there's some sort of change to ensure that those things stop.
And that there is, you know, a positive work environment for
all employees. Then you have an obligation to,
you know, to do better and to do more.
I mean, imagine if you were the employee in the situation
reporting these concerns and Your Leader didn't do anything
about it. I mean that certainly would not
feel good so we're at we're at the time for this week's
episode. Those two situations are similar
and yet so different my best advice to you whether you're an
employee, a manager and HR person is to just do the right
thing. Do the right thing, you know,
everything is available to you online.
Fine. You can Google every question
that you have and find an answer to it.
You can message me. You can ask me.
Hey, does this, you know? Do these people qualify as as
part-time, do they qualify as full-time?
Like I'm happy to answer any question Under the Sun does like
do these is this t-shirt professional?
Like, I don't care what question it is.
I'm happy to answer, but do the right thing, if you're not
putting in the due diligence, if you are Not doing your due
diligence to do, the right thing.
You are part of the problem, and I feel like, you know, this is
the 38th episode, we've talked a lot about navigating certain
situations, but we haven't quite talked about if you The Listener
are part of the solution. So, I just hope that after this
episode, you think about your own actions, and you think
about, am I being part of the solution or am I not being part
of the solution? Because unless you can say, yes,
I am being part of the Solution, you are a part of the problem.
So I don't know if these two individuals are going to listen
to this episode. They might, they might not some
people actually follow me on Instagram.
Don't listen to the podcast at all, so maybe I'll send them
this episode. Hopefully, this helps.
I'm sure this will help more than just those two individuals
at any rate. Again, you can follow me on
Instagram at HR. Tracy, I will have so much more
content coming, hopefully, in a few weeks.
The next coming weeks, I should say.
I'm hoping to actually do a bit of a recap on the last 40
episodes so we'll see how it goes because in two weeks from
now I'll be on my 40th episode, which is insane.
Anyway. I hope you had a have a lovely
week ahead of you and if I don't connect with you on Instagram
and I will see you right back here next week.
Don't forget to rate review And subscribe wherever you're
listening to this podcast and we will speak soon.
See you next week.