1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Welcome to the Bringing the Human back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,840 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,280 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,880 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,880 and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,760 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,600 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,640 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,240 back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the 10 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:27,640 podcast. Thanks so much for being here 11 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,840 for another week. This week I have an incredible 12 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,240 guest on actually who is going to give us a lot of insight into 13 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,120 his book. But I just want to quickly dive 14 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,560 into a little bit of like the overview here before I introduce 15 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,880 you to Eric. Today's episode is really going 16 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,920 to dive us into a book that is as cathartic as it is strategic. 17 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,320 It's called Have you ever had a boss that succeeding in a 18 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,600 dysfunctional workplace by Eric Sharon. 19 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,760 And if you've ever found yourself asking how did this 20 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,960 person get promoted, this episode is for you. 21 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,440 We'll explore toxic managerial archetypes, laugh or cry, maybe 22 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,120 through some real life scenarios, and most importantly, 23 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,800 arm you with practical ways not just to survive, but also 24 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,640 thrive. So let's get into it. 25 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,520 Eric Sharon is a visionary technology executive, author and 26 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,080 thought leader with over 25 years of experience in 27 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,320 transforming global enterprises through digital innovation, 28 00:01:25,320 --> 00:01:28,280 data-driven strategy and AI driven solutions. 29 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,080 Known for his ability to bridge the gap between business 30 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,320 objectives and complex technology, Eric has spearheaded 31 00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:37,160 transformative initiatives at major organizations including 32 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,520 Microsoft and Capital One, where he served as Chief Architect, 33 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,120 bringing substantial advances in cloud resilience, digital 34 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,680 transformation, and data infrastructure efficiency. 35 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,520 His strategic insights and leadership have driven high 36 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,920 impact changes across sectors, optimizing performance and 37 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,320 fostering resilience in industries from finance to 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,120 healthcare. And in this book that I 39 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,280 mentioned in Have You Ever Had a Boss? 40 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,840 That Eric draws on his extensive leadership experience and his 41 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,760 understanding of corporate dynamics to offer readers a 42 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,880 guide to navigating workplace challenges, enhancing personal 43 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,080 effectiveness, and fostering A balanced, fulfilling career. 44 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,240 With insights that resonate across industries, he empowers 45 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,040 readers to become more effective leaders and team players, which 46 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,240 is something that we all will love for sure to dive into. 47 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,800 And with a career shaped by a commitment to measurable impact 48 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,760 and a player coach leadership style, Eric is a sought after 49 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,960 speaker and advisor on topics like leadership, digital 50 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,120 innovation, and organizational change, where you'll see his 51 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,600 work continue to influence leaders and organizations 52 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,920 seeking sustainable, innovative solutions in a rapidly evolving 53 00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:43,720 world. Eric, I'm so excited for our 54 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,480 conversation today. Thank you so much for joining 55 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,200 the podcast and for being here. Tracy, such a generous 56 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:50,400 introduction. Thank you so much. 57 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,120 I'm excited to be here. Of course, of course. 58 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,520 Hey, I always like to say as as much as we draft our own BIOS, 59 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:01,840 sometimes it's really important to hear someone read it back to 60 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,360 us because it's like, you know, you're living your life and 61 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,440 you're not necessarily looking back on all of the things that 62 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,040 you've accomplished, which is quite abundant. 63 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,280 So kudos to you. Thanks so much. 64 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,960 I have to admit to everybody that I certainly had help on 65 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,000 that. My publicist did a great job in 66 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,920 putting all that together. I don't think I could have 67 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,400 penned it as eloquently. I think we tend to underestimate 68 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,640 our own impact looking back. So it's kind of nice to have 69 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:28,280 somebody peeking over your shoulder saying that, hey, no, 70 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,360 you actually have done some stuff. 71 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,280 Yes, I agree as I help people with their resumes very often, 72 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:38,120 especially executives and I sometimes people will get hung 73 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,480 up on certain words and I'm like, no, but you're doing that. 74 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,360 Like that adjective is totally relevant. 75 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,560 Like you're doing that. And you're so right. 76 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,280 We we tend to underestimate ourselves with the exception of 77 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,440 the manager archetypes that we're going to talk about 78 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,920 because they totally overestimate themselves in. 79 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,960 Many cases they do. Right. 80 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,520 Oh my goodness. Well, we have a lot to talk 81 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,080 about, so maybe we just jump right in. 82 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,840 I mean, of course we're we're going to spend a lot of time 83 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,840 talking about why dysfunctional workplaces matter and the impact 84 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,520 that they have and how difficult managers impact employee 85 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,040 well-being in productivity. So I mean, we all, I'm sure, 86 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:16,279 have our own personal anecdotes on this, but I'm curious if 87 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,079 there was, you know, through your experience, if there was an 88 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:22,240 inspiration for this book, if there was a dysfunctional 89 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:23,800 experience that you had lived through. 90 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,480 Yeah, yeah. So I'm a Gen. 91 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,960 Xer, so I've been around for a while. 92 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,720 And when I came out of college and had my first professional 93 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,000 job, I had stars in my eyes, like many folks understandably 94 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,000 do, and they should. But what I quickly became to 95 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,640 began to realize is that the managers who I reported to these 96 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,520 leaders, these people who I ultimately aspired to be right 97 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,240 out of the gates, were flawed individuals that had all sorts 98 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,480 of negative and unhelpful behaviors that I was surprised 99 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,480 with, you know, just coming out of school that people could 100 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,560 ascend to these levels of leadership, but also have such 101 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,520 toxic and we didn't use that word back then, but such 102 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:11,200 destructive behaviors. And you kind of just if, if, if 103 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,400 I'm kind of remembered casting my mind back to come to my first 104 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,920 experiences, you kind of just are like, OK, this is how it is. 105 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,200 And I just have to deal with this. 106 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,480 There weren't terms like psychological safety back then 107 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,680 or bringing your whole self to work or culture was just like 108 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,240 something that was being thought of purposefully at that time. 109 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,040 And so it was either you put your nose to the grindstone, you 110 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,120 deal with your managers unhelpful behaviors, their 111 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,920 reactions, screaming and yelling at you or berating you. 112 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,960 Like those are things that were commonplace. 113 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,760 And for many leaders, that's how they believe that they got 114 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,160 results was, you know, just challenging people constantly 115 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:53,120 moving the bar in not a great way, but a negative way and 116 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,600 being being very sparing with praise and not coaching, but 117 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,760 commanding. And So what was interesting is 118 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:05,480 as I began to work in this these types of environments, it became 119 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,160 very difficult. And I was, I was actually trying 120 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,400 to figure out like, why is this person behaving this way? 121 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,960 And I can't believe this is happening to me. 122 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,680 And it must be me. I must be deficient in some way. 123 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,720 And I got to work harder to cover up for all these 124 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,920 deficiencies that these managers keep finding. 125 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,880 And then I began to realize as I got mid in career or close to 126 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,200 middle and career, which I guess is where I am now, is that these 127 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,120 behaviors tend to repeat across organizations, across teams, 128 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,360 across managers, across individuals. 129 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,360 And it would became very interesting because I'm sitting 130 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,640 in a conference room and I'm just stunned at this manager's 131 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,200 behavior. And I'm like, wait a second, 132 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,720 I've been here before, I've seen this before. 133 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,200 And now I somehow know what to do to kind of navigate through 134 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,920 this. It's no longer shock and horror 135 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,160 and like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe what's happening. 136 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,240 Let me get out of this room. It's I've seen this before. 137 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,560 Let me try to utilize some of the strategies that I've, I've 138 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,240 implemented before to navigate through this. 139 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,760 So that's kind of how I became became to realize that these 140 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,080 behaviors kind of repeat. And then, like, I think your 141 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,440 question was like around the the genesis of the book, like what 142 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,560 meant read me to write this is I think as you get to the period I 143 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,760 am in my career, you start to look back, you start to have a 144 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,520 team members full of like, you know, junior and and and mid 145 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,360 level folks and who are on their own journeys. 146 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,360 And you tend to say, like, if I if they could know what I know, 147 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,240 wouldn't it make their lives easier? 148 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,400 And that's really where the genesis of the book came from. 149 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,440 And it, it finally came to a head when a couple of the, my VP 150 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,640 colleagues and I were kind of sitting around commiserating 151 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,080 about some leaders. And we started kind of just 152 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:53,400 listing out the, the, the things that we were hates a strong 153 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,680 word, but we were challenged with around some of their 154 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,200 unhelpful behaviors. And we're like, yeah, I'm like, 155 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,320 oh, I've seen this before. And they were like, yeah, I've 156 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,200 seen this before too. Here's what I do. 157 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,520 And here's what I did to get around this. 158 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,400 And here's what she'll, here's what they'll do next. 159 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,000 And here's what you'll you'll need to do to cope with it. 160 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,440 And then we kind of said, somebody said, well, hey, 161 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:11,600 someone should write this stuff down. 162 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:12,800 This is great. And I said, you know what? 163 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,760 I'll write it down. And that's how the how the book 164 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,840 came to be. Wow, amazing. 165 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,960 You know, first of all, it's so on the nose because when we 166 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,560 think about dysfunctional workplaces, it is pretty like 167 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:29,520 it's pretty predictable in the sense that they're what creates 168 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,840 the dysfunction from a leadership standpoint, these 169 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,960 archetypes, which we'll go into are pretty like, again, like 170 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,400 predictable and consistent. Like there's there isn't this 171 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:45,280 like unknown about a leader that's dysfunctional or creates 172 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,200 a, you know, quote UN quote toxic workplace? 173 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,680 Like they generally fall into one or more of these kind of 174 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:55,400 categories or archetypes as, as you kind of call it, which is 175 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,000 really fitting considering your career. 176 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Because you probably look at things with a, a focus on not 177 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,440 just like design, but also categorizing like, how do we 178 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,960 like take a look at these things and fit them into like a build 179 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,920 and an understanding of like what can then be replicated. 180 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,040 And so with that, like one of the things that I thought about 181 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,480 when I was reading, especially the first part of the book is 182 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,960 that when we asked ourselves, how the heck did that person get 183 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,880 promoted because they totally suck. 184 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,000 That then tell like sends a message throughout the 185 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,720 organization that that's what it takes to be successful. 186 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,480 And that's when things it's just a snowball effect. 187 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,600 Then other people start to think, oh, well, maybe I just 188 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:43,400 need to be that type of leader in order to achieve the career 189 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,000 growth that I'm looking for. I think it's probably more like 190 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,040 maybe it's not as celebrated as much like maybe workplaces are 191 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,160 starting to realize that's not what makes someone successful. 192 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,160 But still, we certainly see this. 193 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,880 You're that's so insightful because these behaviors, these 194 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,720 unhelpful behaviors that I ascribe to archetypes, not the 195 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,960 people themselves, are just a function of the wrong tools in 196 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,960 their toolbox. And these behaviors and these 197 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,040 unhelpful tools persist because almost exactly of what you just 198 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,200 said, in many, you know, organizations, a promotion is a 199 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,160 reward. It's the organization saying 200 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,040 that I'm confident that the results that you delivered were 201 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,640 fantastic. And I think if we give you a 202 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,000 team and we put you in a leader position, we can achieve a force 203 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,040 multiplication effect on your abilities. 204 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,680 So congratulations, here you go. And in many instances, having 205 00:10:38,680 --> 00:10:42,600 gone through this myself, you're like, wow, look at look at what 206 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,640 I've been able to achieve. And then like the next day or 207 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,200 so, you're like, OK, now what do I do? 208 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,000 Well, the only frame of reference I have is the leaders 209 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,080 who led me. So I often say leaders lead how 210 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,760 they were led. And if the leader that you had 211 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,880 had a toolbox full of unhelpful tools and behaviors, you're 212 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,680 like, and as you said, you're like that, well, that must be 213 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:07,320 what it takes to be successful here and to be a leader. 214 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,000 So I'm just going to follow suit and do those things. 215 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:15,000 And in reality, what I've noticed is for for people, 216 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,960 organizations pay a lot of attention to people that are on 217 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:20,360 the executive end of things. So people like myself and others 218 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,640 that are managing teams of 500 or 1000 people, there's a lot of 219 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,040 leadership advice, formal training off sites and coaching 220 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,360 that help people in those positions manage that that that 221 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,640 big of a staff. And it's rightly so like that. 222 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,240 Managing that a number of people or greater is a art form in 223 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:42,720 itself. And it's a much different one 224 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,720 than if you were a early and career manager. 225 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,680 But what I think is underserved in a lot of organizations is 226 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,920 what are some helpful tools that we can give managers before they 227 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,960 start just wrote adoption of what their managers actually 228 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,440 did. I think that that's an 229 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,400 underserved area of investment for professional help. 230 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,120 And there's this constant obsession now in in the 231 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,640 corporate environment of hiring bar raisers, hiring people that 232 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:14,720 are fantastic individuals, but bringing them in and the talent 233 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,920 acquisition is significantly expensive. 234 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,680 And if you assign them to folks, one of the things I had the 235 00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:23,920 opportunity when I sat with Satya Nadella as part of a 236 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,720 leadership program in my when I was at Microsoft, one thing that 237 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,280 he said that resonated with me is that if people don't quit 238 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,760 teams or organizations, they quit managers. 239 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,520 And if you are acquiring these top tier talented individuals 240 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,880 and you're assigning them to people that have a plethora of 241 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,400 unhelpful behaviors, those people are going to leave. 242 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,680 They're going to look for other opportunities, hopefully within 243 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:49,320 your organization or most likely outside your organization. 244 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,440 That's a really, really good point. 245 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,920 It makes me think of like how we break the cycle on like toxic 246 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,360 leadership, which is kind of a play on breaking the cycle and 247 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,160 generational issues, you know, like socially or familiarly. 248 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,440 But it it's, it's interesting how there is that crossover 249 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:13,160 between, you know, your personal life and your professional life 250 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,600 in the sense that we can understand like, oh, if we have 251 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,600 someone in our family that is maybe toxic, let's say, or 252 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,520 dysfunctional or is not necessarily adding positively to 253 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,600 our experience or vice versa, we will say, okay, well, I have to, 254 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:32,840 I have to cut them out. And similarly, when there's a 255 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:38,760 imbalance between good someone who's representing good 256 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,600 behaviors and someone who's representing, you know, poor 257 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,000 behaviors or dysfunctional behaviors, depending on the 258 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,360 organization's standards, there isn't a balance there. 259 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:50,880 And so it, it results in that like push and pull that you're 260 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,920 basically describing. And it's, it's so true, I think 261 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,440 that people do stay and leave because of leaders and that it 262 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,760 goes both ways. Like if someone wants someone 263 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,800 who leads them in a functional way, meaning like opposite of 264 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,840 dysfunctional in a way that's that's positive and progressive, 265 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,400 then you know they are probably going to respond better when 266 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,200 they have a leader who's matching that need for them. 267 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,640 Whereas if someone's like, oh, no, no, no, I see what's what 268 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,920 makes success and dysfunction, is it, even though they don't 269 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,240 see it that way, they're not thinking, oh, I'm a 270 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,360 dysfunctional member of this team. 271 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,360 I'm going to keep doing. They're just thinking like this 272 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:30,640 is what it takes to be successful. 273 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,480 If they have someone who's trying to help them get to a 274 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:36,560 different place, it's just not going to be a match. 275 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:42,160 And it's an interesting, like perplexing place, probably, for 276 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:43,840 an organization to find themselves in. 277 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,880 Yeah. It's what really resonated to 278 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,440 you about what you said is, like, for those of us that are 279 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,800 parents, you often say, hey, if I ever have kids, I'm never 280 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,880 going to be the same type of parent that my parents were. 281 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,440 And you do get a little bit older and you're like, well, 282 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,360 hey, they did the best they could with what they knew at the 283 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,520 time. But still there are things that 284 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:03,400 they did in which you're like, I'm not going to do that. 285 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,240 And you tend to soften your your appreciation of what your 286 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,680 parents did as you get older. But you also, I think with every 287 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,880 generation, you become smarter and more knowledge becomes 288 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,040 available. And you don't have to handle 289 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,360 things the way that your parents did, but you could still achieve 290 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,200 the same or better results. It's the same thing with 291 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,960 leadership. You have to, you know, be able 292 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,840 to say, listen, I'm in this position and I don't know 293 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,360 exactly what to do, but I do know that I didn't enjoy this 294 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,600 when I experienced it. And so now I'm going to try to 295 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:33,840 find a different way to do things. 296 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,640 Yes, I love that. That's a wonderful way to put 297 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:39,280 it. And I think this is probably a 298 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,600 good opportunity for us to dive into those manager archetypes 299 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,960 that we've been talking about. A few memorable ones for me were 300 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,520 the surprised, the emergency broadcaster, the firefighter, 301 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,000 the raw nerve and the Leafo are last in, first out. 302 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,360 And so we'll, I would love to maybe talk through some of 303 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,240 those. Of course the, the listeners 304 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,040 will have the opportunity to, to get a copy of your book, of 305 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,720 course, but just to kind of go through them. 306 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,000 Maybe we, we take a few and like do a little bit of a deep dive. 307 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:20,440 One of the ones that really stood out for me was the was the 308 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,320 emergency broadcaster and specifically because I think 309 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,600 that one is 1. That's like extremely, it feels 310 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,960 to me like it's extremely dysfunctional and we'll go 311 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:34,840 through it. Obviously, all of these are 312 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,800 archetypes of what dysfunctional leadership can look like. 313 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,400 For those of you who are maybe not any of these, that might 314 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,200 mean that you're not a dysfunctional leader. 315 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,880 So don't feel like you have to, you know, prescribe to these 316 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:48,840 like you shouldn't. Hopefully you're not finding 317 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,440 yourself in some of these, but if you are, then that just means 318 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,400 that maybe we can give you some solutions to overcoming some of 319 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,480 these archetypes. But anyway, the emergency 320 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,080 broadcaster is really like this. Drop everything. 321 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,960 We have a crisis and it's like this constant panic mode, often 322 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,280 disrupting personal time for last minute chaos. 323 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,160 Chaos has no place in my life. I can't, I'm always like, I 324 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,400 can't, it's chaotic. I can't, I'm backing out. 325 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,880 See you later. So can you walk us through that 326 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,599 archetype and and where it tends to come up? 327 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,520 Yeah, yeah, I, I will say before we dive in, I would as I was 328 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,160 writing this, one of the things that I've started to realize is 329 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,240 that, hey, you know what? There are there are some of 330 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,320 these in me, even though I'm actually writing down as I'm 331 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,320 writing, I'm a God. Gosh, I hope I'm not this. 332 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,120 Or maybe I am. Maybe I am the amnesiac which 333 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:40,440 is. I felt, I felt that when I was 334 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,120 reading, I was like, oh God, am I any of these? 335 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,240 And that's a good, a good stressor, right, to be able to 336 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,600 say that with self-awareness that, you know what, I'm not 337 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,560 perfect and I do have some of these things inside me and maybe 338 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:56,640 I need to do something different. 339 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,080 But the emergency broadcaster was one I think that we all kind 340 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,000 of live through. And I think is you get, you 341 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,120 know, get on in your career. You know, the the senior leaders 342 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,720 are often underwater overloaded. These folks are responsible for 343 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,600 delivering fiscal results, financial impact to the 344 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,640 business. They have hundreds of thousands 345 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,240 of emails unread in their inbox, Slack messages just blowing 346 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,680 themselves, blowing, blowing up every day. 347 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,240 And in the book, I try to follow a narrative format. 348 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,120 And so I try to use characters that we tell the stories about. 349 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:32,840 Each one of these stories happened to me. 350 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,040 So in this instance, you know, my manager got a Slack message 351 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,160 at 6:30 AM and that said, hey, you know, I'm looking forward to 352 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,080 your team's presentation today. This is going to be important 353 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,560 for the board to hear. And, you know, managers like 354 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:47,840 what? Wait a second. 355 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,680 I don't remember that at all. All right. 356 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,400 So now I need to bring everybody together to make sure that we're 357 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,000 we're prepared for this. I didn't know that this was 358 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,800 going to happen today. And so at that point in time, 359 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,280 everybody knows that a vice president's calendar is just jam 360 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,320 packed like days in advance. So the question becomes, well, 361 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,320 when is the only time we can get people together ad hoc? 362 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,480 It's obviously before or after hours. 363 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,520 So this particular manager I had was a fan of the 7:30 AM 364 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,880 emergency meeting. People are in Zoom shaky video 365 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,200 on their phones, their kids are screaming in the back seat as 366 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,800 they're being dropped off at daycare. 367 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,640 People are getting on and off trains, losing signals and 368 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,520 elevators, juggling their phone with their Starbucks cups, 369 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,280 trying to get to the office. And it's all about like, you 370 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,440 know, OK, who's on deck? What do we have to do? 371 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,240 You know, I'm going to need you to do this, Eric, or I'm going 372 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:41,560 to need you to do this. So and so. 373 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,680 And in many instances, we were like, yeah, we've known about 374 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,080 this for for months. We're prepared. 375 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,080 We sent you the deck last week and you know, it's like, well, 376 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,760 let me see this, let's go through it right now slide by 377 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,960 slide. And eventually you take from 378 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,000 that 7:30 to your 9:00 AM. Now you have no time to prepare 379 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:05,400 for your own 9 AMS because you are, you know, you know, kind of 380 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,480 scaling up and you know, kind of take the emergency out of this 381 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,480 this particular manager's, you know, awareness and so. 382 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,240 That becomes and by the way, throughout the day it kind of 383 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,000 resurges lunchtime. I have questions about this. 384 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,000 I don't think this slide belongs here. 385 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,840 And then starts the deconstruction of a very well 386 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,000 thought out and put together presentation that everybody's 387 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,400 worked on. And at the last minute you are 388 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,680 running into the meeting, editing slides on the fly, 389 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,760 disrupting very well thought out plans and presentations and then 390 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,120 making the overall stress of your employees and the 391 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:43,800 presentation and the work suffers. 392 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:46,680 So that's kind of the emergency broadcaster. 393 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,440 But what's important is to really realize that they're, if 394 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,040 they had a choice and many of these archetypes, if people had 395 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,400 a choice to say, yes, I behave that way or no, I'm not going 396 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,560 to, they would say, gosh, no, I don't want to behave that way. 397 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,840 But it's the only thing that they know how to do because of 398 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,040 all of the different motivations and pressures that they're 399 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,040 under. So it's very difficult as your 400 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,320 kids are screaming and you're on a 7:30 AM call to feel empathy 401 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,600 for somebody that orchestrated that chaos. 402 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:16,600 But in order for you to actually get through it, to cope with it, 403 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,520 you have to put yourself in their shoes. 404 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,800 So certainly experience the shock, horror and awe and you 405 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,440 know, just resentment. Let it wash over you as best you 406 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,360 can and then get into a position where you're like, all right, 407 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,040 well, how can I prevent the next one? 408 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,760 How can I actually work with my manager to say that, hey, you 409 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,440 know what? We are going to have this 410 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,080 presentation. I'm worried that you haven't 411 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,920 opened the deck. I'm worried that it's lost in 412 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,360 your inbox. How can I actually get in this 413 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,960 in front of you so that you're aware we can get your feedback, 414 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,800 so that we all walk in together, practiced and polished? 415 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,000 This, I'm telling you, this one, I really, it was taking me back. 416 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,280 It took me back to, to sometimes in my career, especially with 417 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,840 some retail leaders that I've worked with. 418 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,040 But honestly, it's like across every industry. 419 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,680 This is not specific to any industry. 420 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,520 It really took me back because I can remember feeling not only 421 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:15,280 infuriated, but the stress that it caused, like when I had an 422 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,920 emergency broadcaster archetype who I worked for. 423 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:23,640 And one of the things that I think you articulated really 424 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,640 perfectly is that is like the how to cope with. 425 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,800 Because earlier on in my career, I would just find myself getting 426 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,160 infuriated and I would be like, this person has a lot of nerve 427 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,280 doing this to me when I put all of this effort into something 428 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,240 really good. And then you start to you kind 429 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,560 of like unpack it personally, but to your point, in order to 430 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:49,440 cope with it in a way that's more positive and more 431 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,360 productive is to really think about, OK, what did that person 432 00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:58,560 go through that created that like sense of chaos for them? 433 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,680 And something that I talk about often, not only in my own 434 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,320 professional life, but also on this podcast is, are really two 435 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,720 things. One, that when people have an 436 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,960 inflammatory response, be the anti-inflammatory, be the NSAID 437 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,480 in this case, like when someone is acting that way, do your best 438 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,800 to deemphasize whatever is causing that chaos. 439 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,320 So like in that situation now, knowing what I know now 10 plus 440 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,480 years later in my career, I would say, Hey, hey, let's slow 441 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:30,640 down. We went. 442 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,600 We, we, we put a lot of effort into this. 443 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,880 We met a ton of times. Like why don't we just go 444 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,160 through it? And as a matter of fact, if 445 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,600 you're if in many cases, what ends up happening, I feel like 446 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:45,320 is that leader of the department brings in all of the levels and 447 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,880 rather than, you know, like leveraging or leaning into their 448 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,680 next level leader who can then kind of protect the rest of the 449 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,280 team from that type of chaos. It's just like everybody feels 450 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,440 it. So I would say that 451 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,080 anti-inflammatory there is like, hey, why don't we just meet 452 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,000 offline? Like the team put a lot of good 453 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,640 work into this, like let's just meet. 454 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,680 It's a lot easier than like disrupting 10 people's days, so 455 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,760 to speak. And then the other thing that I 456 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,080 talk about often is managing up and it's kind of this, you know, 457 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,600 it's a, it's a less tangible example of like this 458 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,640 anti-inflammatory analogy that I use. 459 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,960 But when you manage up and you went to your point, when you 460 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,960 think about how you prevent that from happening again, to me, 461 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,360 there's like a closing the loop on feedback and there's a how do 462 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:35,960 I manage my manager so that they don't annoy me again and they 463 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,320 don't disrupt my day the way they did in that moment. 100% 464 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,080 managing up is actually a lot of the advice that I give that I 465 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,280 actually talk about how to do it diplomatically without engaging 466 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,480 in CLMS, as we used to call them, career limiting moves. 467 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,320 But what's that? What's that saying that people 468 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,400 say when, when couples break up, it's not you, it's me, it's the 469 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,320 reverse. It's not, it's not you, it's 470 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,400 them, right? They are the ones in, in many 471 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,600 cases, right? Not all of them, but in many 472 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,520 cases, these behaviors have nothing to do with you. 473 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,080 It has everything to do with them and the pressures that 474 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,440 they're under and the, the, the, the stress involved in walking 475 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,120 in their shoes. But you are 100% right in that 476 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,640 managing up is a skill that is an absolute necessity. 477 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,760 The question becomes, and how do I do that? 478 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,800 And that's really what I talk through in the book, not just by 479 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,760 telling people what I think makes made me successful, but 480 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,920 how you can actually do it through illustrated examples. 481 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,880 But one of the things that I think early and career folks are 482 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,440 often challenged by is the concept of managing up. 483 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,680 These people are kind of like The Avengers of the Justice 484 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,960 League, right? Like they are, they have been 485 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,200 anointed and by the organization with these powerful positions 486 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,160 of, of, of leadership and influence. 487 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,280 And you are at the other end of that. 488 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,760 You're one to two years in, you're maybe a few months in and 489 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,000 you're like, well, I, I, there's obviously I need to learn. 490 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,040 The learning goes one way here. And that means that whatever 491 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,800 they do, I need to learn from. There's not anything that I 492 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,920 could possibly teach this person, which is 100% false. 493 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,520 Everybody can learn from everybody and having a growth 494 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,280 mindset enough to realize that is what's super important. 495 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,920 The other thing is you have to be able to not descend into what 496 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,640 I call like the negative spiral. So I'm sure for those of us that 497 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,080 have been around for a while, you just everything just becomes 498 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,320 a self, self enforcing prophecy in which the world is out to get 499 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,120 you. And I often tell people like if 500 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:41,640 you seek negativity, seek an instance where somebody's 501 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,560 against you, you'll find it. Whether it's real or not, you'll 502 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,840 find it. But if you make the choice, and 503 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,400 this is not on the non clinical end of things, of course, if you 504 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,640 make the choice to be positive and you say that not what do I 505 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,440 have to do today? What do I get to do today? 506 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,320 What's in my ability to influence and control that has 507 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:01,840 put you in a much better mindset so that you can approach these 508 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,160 reverent figures and these people have our economic and our 509 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,880 their our career potential in their hands. 510 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,600 But that doesn't mean that you can't gently steer and guide 511 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,960 them to to grow as along with you. 512 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,040 So they're on their own journey as well. 513 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:22,000 And so it is fully within the realm of your capability to say, 514 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,160 listen, I think there's a smarter way to do this. 515 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,240 The key is, though, getting them to a position where they're 516 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,320 willing to hear your advice. I often say that being right is 517 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:37,040 maybe like 50% of the battle. The other 50% is emotionally 518 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800 identifying with the person so that they feel that you 519 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,720 understand and so that they are in a position to accept your 520 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960 advice. I've been at the other end of 521 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,120 that. I have a howitzer full of data 522 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,240 and examples of how you're, you're about to run this team 523 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,440 off a Cliff. And I'm 100% right. 524 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,160 But if they are not interested in hearing that, they're going 525 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,920 to bind to the emotion that they used in making the decision. 526 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,560 They will go deeper and they will tune out any logic or data 527 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,800 associated with with, you know, the opposing view. 528 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,480 Yeah. Protect your peace, folks. 529 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,000 I mean, I think this is something that I've really, I've 530 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,360 kind of learned this the hard way. 531 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:22,760 Frankly, I would invest so much energy into like as an HR 532 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,320 partner saying, hey, we've got to do things differently. 533 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,920 This was not okay. And taking the I'm right 534 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,560 approach first rather than how are you? 535 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,080 Like, where did this come from asking questions? 536 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,200 Why did you make this decision? Why did you react that way to 537 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,680 build that kind of the to your point like that, that connection 538 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,520 based on trust and understanding. 539 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,600 And I learned the hard way. And, and if it didn't, it wasn't 540 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,080 like, Oh, I learned it once and then like I applied a different 541 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:52,800 practice. I had to like learn it a few 542 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,280 times before realizing or go through it a few times before 543 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,320 realizing, Oh, wait a second. If someone just told me that, 544 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,760 you know, or just came to me and was like, oh, you did this, You 545 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,520 didn't do this the right way like this. 546 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,400 These are all the things that you caused. 547 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,960 I wouldn't be so thrilled either. 548 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,320 So it's like, how do you, even if you have great relationships 549 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,040 with people, it doesn't mean that they're going to be open 550 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,880 immediately just because of that. 551 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,320 So building the rapport to your point where you create you like 552 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,320 allow them to drop their guard and you create an environment 553 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,200 where openness is felt and appreciated. 554 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,560 Then it's much easier to share your feedback or your advice 555 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,200 without it coming off like, you know better and that they know 556 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,200 worse and that they've done a poor job. 557 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,800 Even if that is the case. And I'm, I'm glad I learned 558 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,280 that. But I think that this is where 559 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,480 like with this, with this podcast, for example, if we can 560 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,920 teach people in a way where they don't have to learn the hard 561 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,800 way, we're going to, we're going to cut right to the chase like 562 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,840 so much faster. And I actually had a leader who 563 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,680 would say to me, hey, if you don't have to spend years 564 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,000 learning this and you can just like, take what I'm saying and 565 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,800 apply it, you're going to save yourself a lot of headaches. 566 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,760 And so now you know that that really helped me to think about, 567 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,040 oh, like, I'd rather not learn the hard way, actually. 568 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,840 Like, let me figure out what I can do differently so that I'm 569 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,240 not like constantly faced with this uphill battle where to your 570 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,280 point, when someone has an emotional reaction, you are 571 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,480 being dragged down into this deep, deep hole and you're like, 572 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,000 wait, how did we get here? But it's like you kind of 573 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,000 contributed to that because you didn't think, you know, 5 steps 574 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,880 ahead into what this person's reaction would be and avoiding 575 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,080 that whole spiral. Yeah, you're so right. 576 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,720 It's, it's the way I think about it is you achieve understanding 577 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,960 through empathy and then you can convince somebody of something. 578 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,440 And that's that's really the thread that runs through the 579 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,760 entire book. Yeah, it's so true. 580 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,840 It's A and I like the narrative approach that you take because 581 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,600 of that. It's like, Oh yeah, I had a 582 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,800 leader that was kind of like that. 583 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,680 They did something similar. And then when you get to that 584 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,920 second part of the book where you really talk about the coping 585 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,240 skills and building resilience and growing your manager, which 586 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,880 is what we're really talking about here, and managing up as a 587 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,040 career skill. It's like, oh, wait, yeah, there 588 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,120 are things that that are in my control, as a matter of fact, 589 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:21,160 that can improve or reduce the chaos or the dysfunction or the 590 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,240 that feeling of stress that the, the receiving party, so to 591 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,400 speak, or that I in this case, or someone else is feeling as a 592 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,400 result of some of these more dysfunctional archetypes. 593 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,880 And then one of the other archetypes that really stood out 594 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,560 to me was the surprised. I think, you know what? 595 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,320 Of course, these are probably some of the more common ones 596 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,680 considering, I mean, I've actually there's some archetypes 597 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,040 that I've never experienced, like for example, the last and 598 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,440 first out. I've never experienced that. 599 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,320 Whoever the surprise, I definitely have the like, why am 600 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,560 I just hearing about this now? Like always being blindsided and 601 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,080 you're like, what are you talking about? 602 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,360 I sent you like 3000 and emails about this. 603 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,400 You confirmed receipt. We talked about this in our 604 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,320 one-on-one the other day. Why are you wasting my time? 605 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,320 That's the emotional response that at least I've had before. 606 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,160 And ultimately, like the impact is that it undermines the teams 607 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,480 trust and it's just like it creates all these breakdowns. 608 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,240 And then there's like this blame game and it's this whole thing. 609 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,080 And one of the OR two of the coping strategies that I really 610 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,600 liked that you shared were the proactive verbal communication 611 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,520 followed by documentation. And this is a great example of 612 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,720 managing up because we know that especially as HR partners, we 613 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,600 encourage managers to do that with their teams. 614 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,840 So when you flip it and you're the, the team member managing up 615 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,640 and you talk it out with the person, this is the proactive 616 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160 verbal communication followed by the write it down or 617 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,640 documentation approach. Then you are proactive about 618 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,000 preventing something like that in the future. 619 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,440 And it's very easy to just like forward an e-mail and say, see, 620 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,800 we, we talked about this like you want to take some time to 621 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,760 review it before we meet, you know, and then it, it kind of 622 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,520 keeps you not in the driver's seat, but it keeps you in the 623 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,760 position where you can not feel so out of control. 624 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,960 That's exactly right. Like I when I was when I was 625 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,320 writing this and I had a couple of executive colleagues of mine 626 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,800 kind of read this. They're like, this is like being 627 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,880 in an Uber with your family and the driver just at the stoplight 628 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,560 gets out of the car and leaves and you're all in the car and 629 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:29,760 you're like, wait. What the hell is it or not 630 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,560 that's. That's really what the surprise 631 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,880 manager archetype makes you feel like from a team perspective and 632 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,440 working for this individual. And you're 100% right. 633 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,640 It's like, how can you not know this? 634 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,760 How can you? And the answer is, again, they 635 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,640 are under extreme pressure. They could have personal things 636 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,880 going on in their lives that's upsetting the apple cart. 637 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,920 And it's that empathy and then these techniques that you can 638 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,600 use to manage up. The one thing I will say is that 639 00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,560 for all these archetypes, it's very important to diplomatically 640 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,200 inform your manager that these behaviors are impacting the team 641 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,280 in not so terrific ways. And that I think together, what 642 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,560 we can do is XY and Z, after you've empathized, after you've 643 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,679 got them to a point where they're willing to listen, then 644 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:19,199 you can say, listen, this is, this is not the best for the 645 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,280 team. And any manager is going to be 646 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,840 interested in making sure that the team is happy. 647 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,440 And and that's certainly altruistically important, but 648 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,280 it's also because at many organizations, they do these 649 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,480 pulse surveys in which manager compensation is based on how 650 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,679 well you are re rated by your team. 651 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,840 So there's a, there's a financial, fiscal and career 652 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,960 interest in managers making sure that the team is happy with the, 653 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,600 with the jobs that they're doing in their leadership. 654 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,719 So those two things are are kind of critical in in making sure 655 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:54,600 that you find the right way to dispel some of these behaviors 656 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,640 which persist in silence from leader to leader. 657 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,240 Totally, totally. I, you know, when I think about 658 00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:07,040 the surprised archetype and I, I think we'll, I, I want to make 659 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,360 sure we also get to some of the takeaways because I could talk 660 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,440 about these archetypes probably for another 40 minutes just 661 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,320 because it's really so fascinating. 662 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:21,560 And when I think about the surprised archetype, it's there 663 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,560 is an element here where I think when we think about like the the 664 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,200 emotional reaction that that causes for someone who's 665 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:36,440 extremely committed and highly responsible, it feels like their 666 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,720 work doesn't matter. It feels like they put in hours 667 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:43,760 of effort, all of this energy for someone not to notice. 668 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,400 And certainly there are members of the team who really just 669 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,920 don't don't care and they're like, yeah, whatever. 670 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,760 Like I'll just kick the can down the road. 671 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,800 And we know that this is also an archetype where you're like, ah, 672 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,320 we'll deal with it when it's on fire. 673 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,320 But I think like, especially considering there are when we 674 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,280 think about larger teams, or frankly, I guess it's really 675 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,560 applicable to smaller teams to where you might have people who 676 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,840 are really focused on their career growth that is so 677 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,760 impactful. And when we think about going 678 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,040 back to your point that people stay and leave for managers, if 679 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,320 they consistently have that type of manager leading them, and 680 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:24,920 maybe they're newer in their career and they haven't 681 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,320 developed those coping skills yet, they're out. 682 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,680 They're not staying because they're like, oh, well, you're 683 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,800 not. You don't feel any commitment or 684 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,080 responsibility to me. You don't actually care what I'm 685 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,160 doing, even if that's not the case, but that's the emotional 686 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,400 response. And so rather than coping with 687 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,760 it and making improvements to prevent it in the future, they 688 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,800 just leave and they find a different place. 689 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,360 Yeah, there there's this unwritten contract, I think 690 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,280 between a manager and employees that the manager should amplify 691 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,760 and provide visibility to a team's great work, whether 692 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:59,720 that's individual team members or it's, it's, it's the team as 693 00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:02,640 a whole. Your job is to have your team 694 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,240 members stand on your shoulders and then be able to kind of help 695 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,800 you, you push them up. And when that doesn't happen, 696 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,920 like you said, career minded individuals that are focused on 697 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,280 career velocity are going to say, not only am I dissatisfied 698 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,400 with these unhelpful behaviors and these archetypical 699 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,760 challenges, I don't actually find it the interesting to stay 700 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,160 here because this person is not amplifying my efforts. 701 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,760 And in fact, they're doing the opposite. 702 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,240 They're constantly switching things like in the LIFO case, 703 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,200 which is the last thing that that manager hears becomes the 704 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,080 most important thing that the team does, drop everything else. 705 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:38,680 And the people are kind of like, what? 706 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,240 This was going to be something that was going to be impactful, 707 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,280 something that was going to deliver results. 708 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,760 And now you're telling me that I have to switch to this thing. 709 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,320 And listen, that happens in business. 710 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,600 But at the same time, if it happens every time there's an 711 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,920 executive meeting, then it becomes something that's more 712 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,920 fatiguing, right? And you don't get that 713 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,720 opportunity to deliver things and to be amplified. 714 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,560 Totally, totally with that, I think, I'm sure that there are 715 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,640 listeners who are like, oh man, I have to read this book because 716 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:09,960 my manager falls into one of these. 717 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,680 What are some takeaways that people can walk away with? 718 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,560 Like, of course, there's part of this which is like identifying 719 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,560 what archetype their leader might fall into if they are 720 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:27,240 dysfunctional or even maybe some of the the opportunities that 721 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:29,040 their leader has might fall into an art. 722 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,240 Like, they might be a great leader, but they might have, you 723 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:33,520 know, we all are not perfect as we've talked about. 724 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,960 But it's like, of course, I'm sure there's part of that is 725 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:37,920 identifying what that looks like. 726 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,680 But in terms of like really being able to apply coping 727 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,800 strategies, like what would your recommendation be for listeners 728 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,200 who really want to have an actionable take away? 729 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,640 Yeah, I think there's, there's two lenses that I, I think about 730 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,160 the answering that question through the 1st is if you are a 731 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,080 leader and you are in charge of folks and you do have to deliver 732 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,240 results and you are underwater in terms of, you know, 733 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:04,040 communication and, and you know, what you have to, to work on and 734 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,840 what you have to deliver. Definitely read through the book 735 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,960 through the lens of like, am I, you know, is this me in some 736 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,520 element? And if it is, then say, you know 737 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:14,960 what? I need to own up to that. 738 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,880 And this is how it impacts people and I need to get better 739 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,520 at it. And this is the strategies that 740 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,200 I can use to get better at those things while at the same time 741 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,800 utilizing these very strategies to manage upwards. 742 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,680 If you are somebody that's subject to some of these 743 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,600 archetypes, the interesting thing to realize is that it's 744 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,280 not has very probably has very little to do with you as a 745 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,600 person, even though it feels that way or you as a 746 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,880 professional. It has everything to do with 747 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,840 them and the stresses that they're under. 748 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,120 Achieve understanding through empathy so that you can grow 749 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,560 your manager that you can utilize these techniques to 750 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,960 provide a preparedness to like you said, I'd like your your the 751 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:54,960 phrase you used earlier, protect your piece. 752 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,880 That's super important, but ultimately you're going to reach 753 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,760 a tipping point where you might recognize that even though 754 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,720 you're trying to implement all of these important strategies 755 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,800 and they're the exact right thing to do, you're doing the 756 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,360 exact right way, it's just not being effective or it's just not 757 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,720 being effective in a time frame that you're willing to invest 758 00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,080 in. So to that, to folks in that 759 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,160 situation, I say know your worth. 760 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,520 Make sure that you understand that when it is time to leave 761 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,200 that you do so not running from a situation. 762 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,560 But looking towards additional opportunities and knowing your 763 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,720 worth, meaning that not necessarily financially, 764 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:34,840 although that's important, but knowing your worth and what 765 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,920 you're capable of doing and what your talent is and that you can 766 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,240 say, listen, I'm going to make a conscious choice to look for 767 00:40:41,240 --> 00:40:42,880 something because I'm going to leave this manager. 768 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,960 That's super important. Yeah, thank you so much for 769 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,560 that. I think it it's totally relevant 770 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,840 and hopefully the listeners will really feel inspired by looking 771 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,800 at these things with a a less inflammatory response because we 772 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,840 all can be inflamed by these things. 773 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,320 And in terms of where listeners can find the book, of course, 774 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,200 we'll link everything, but where could they pick up a copy of 775 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,720 your book and start to break down how they are as leaders or 776 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,040 maybe some things that they want to ensure they are paying 777 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,000 attention to or how they can apply some of those coping 778 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,120 strategies that you've talked about? 779 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,200 Yeah, absolutely. From a logistical perspective, 780 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:23,720 it's available on Amazon, of course. 781 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,400 Have you ever had a boss that it's available at all major 782 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,280 booksellers and retailers? If you don't see it, ask for it. 783 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,160 It's either there or they can get it for you. 784 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,760 Love to hear what folks have to say about it and really looking 785 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,320 forward to understanding if it if it helps people. 786 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,000 From what I've heard so far, people are gravitating towards 787 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:45,840 the archetypes and the coping strategies. 788 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,120 And what I really tried to do is to write it in a way in which I 789 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,400 demonstrate how the coping strategies can be implemented 790 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,240 through a narrative frame and then what the potential results 791 00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,080 can be. But ultimately, my hope is that 792 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,120 people walk away from this feeling empowered, feeling that 793 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,680 they are not subject to these behaviors, that they can observe 794 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,000 them and respond to them and grow their managers. 795 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,760 Amazing. Well, Eric, thank you so much 796 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,160 for not only writing this book, but also for sharing your 797 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,280 insights on my podcast this week. 798 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,320 I think it's going to make a huge impact. 799 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,000 Dysfunction and workplaces is something that I am DM D and 800 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,160 emailed about constantly. So I think that this will really 801 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,600 help to give people solutions and kind of give them a little 802 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,240 bit of control back in their lives, which always feels good 803 00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:37,000 for anyone so. Excellent, Tracy. 804 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,800 Thanks for having me on. Of course. 805 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,120 Thank you so much. And for the listeners, you'll 806 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:41,360 find everything in the show notes. 807 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,040 You can click links very easily there. 808 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,200 Eric, thank you so much. Thanks so much. 809 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,560 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 810 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,440 so that you are the first to hear when an episode drops each 811 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,880 week and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 812 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,680 much you love this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 813 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,160 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 814 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,120 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 815 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,520 and I'll see you next week.