1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,800 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,240 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,840 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,840 and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,720 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,560 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,600 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,520 back to human resources. Hi, everyone, welcome back to 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,720 the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,720 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 12 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,640 This week we're going to be talking a lot about cynicism, 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,160 actually. And I was just joking with 14 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:38,960 Howell, who is my guest this week. 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,360 You know, like raise your hand if you've ever been a cynic. 16 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,640 And of course, my hand went out. So I hope that everyone this 17 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,520 episode, I know that you will, but before we get into it, let 18 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,840 me introduce you to Howell Berry, who is the CEO and 19 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,560 founder of Alicorn Learning, which supports leaders and their 20 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,200 teams to be as successful at work as possible. 21 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,040 Howell spent the bulk of his corporate career in sales and 22 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,760 leadership for the Financial Times and ft.com. 23 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,760 During his nine years with the newspaper, he developed, grew 24 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,040 and managed multiple $1,000,000 client relationships. 25 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,480 He also recruited and trained over 60 team members, ultimately 26 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,240 managing a team of 25 and budgets of 50, $1,000,000. 27 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,480 In 2010, Howell transitioned careers and began working for 28 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,720 The Mind Gym, a global training and development organization, 29 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,160 where he ran their global network of over 300 facilitators 30 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,080 and as a trainer and public speaker. 31 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,320 Howell has delivered over 2000 training sessions and 300 32 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:36,240 keynotes to over 100,000 people around the world, which is 33 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,800 amazing, the largest being a Group of 7000 at the United 34 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,400 Center in Chicago. Howell has worked with Fortune 35 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,720 500 companies as diverse as Nike, Deloitte, and Microsoft, 36 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,880 as well as startups like Etsy, Uber, and Rivian. 37 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,120 His work has covered a wide range of topics from leadership 38 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,480 development to diversity, equity and inclusion to storytelling 39 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,040 and many more. Alicorn Learning also works with 40 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,800 internal trainers to organizations to support them in 41 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,520 delivering the best training programs possible for their 42 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,120 teams. And by the way, alongside his 43 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,440 corporate and training work, Howell has worked as a 44 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,440 screenwriter, selling scripts to the BB, CC and MTV. 45 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,120 And he's author of the Screenwriter's Journey and works 46 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,000 with new screenwriters to help them kick start their writing 47 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,960 career. So Howell, you have done some 48 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:23,880 tremendous things throughout your career. 49 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,160 Welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for being here. 50 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,960 Thank. You so much sounds exhausting 51 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,400 when you just hear it all. Spoken, you know, aren't you 52 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,080 tired? I think that's why I nap so much 53 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:36,320 now. Now that my I. 54 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,960 Was going to see right, I was going to say, you might, you 55 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,920 might need a nap, a sabbatical, some PTO, whatever you need to 56 00:02:43,920 --> 00:02:45,920 take. No, I mean, it's amazing And, 57 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,840 and it's really funny. I think the, the audience is 58 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,680 used to hearing this, but guess whenever they hear their BIOS 59 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,760 read, because I do read them right in front of you, they're 60 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,520 like, Oh my gosh, I did all of that or wow, that's a lot. 61 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,320 And you know, it's it. I think it's actually a very 62 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,640 important exercise. It's why I don't separately 63 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:05,760 record the BIOS because otherwise we just, you know, 64 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,800 life passes us and we don't totally remember all that we've 65 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,560 done, you know? So kudos. 66 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:13,800 To you. Well, thank you, thank you. 67 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,200 And you know, mine was definitely separated into 68 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,560 blocks, like definitely different chunks of my life. 69 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:21,560 And but it's funny when you hear it like that again, reminding 70 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,440 yourself sort of the genesis of how you got to to hear you don't 71 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,680 know in your 20s which way you're going to go, do you? 72 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,400 It's interesting to see what happens. 1000% I know it's, 73 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:35,440 it's, it's amazing. I always, as a mom especially, I 74 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,400 always think about how life is really like a series of books 75 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:42,920 and certainly one book with many chapters. 76 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,800 And you know, you're in your 20s, that's one whole chapter. 77 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,600 You're in your 30s, that's another chapter. 78 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,080 And when you're in those decades, you're, you're not 79 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,840 always thinking about life in that way. 80 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,240 But I think once I became a mom, I was like, oh, wow, this is 81 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,280 like a totally new chapter of my life. 82 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,360 And then when they're 18, that's going to be a different chapter 83 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,600 in my life because then, you know, what does my life look 84 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,320 like? It's just so interesting, right? 85 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,440 To zoom out and be like, whoa, I'm going to have a whole 86 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:14,240 different life in another 17 years. 87 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,440 I mean, mine are getting old and out at their 12 and 11. 88 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,880 And so, you know, we're 2/3 of the way through them being with 89 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,680 us. We've got, you know, six years, 90 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,840 that's it. And my wife and I are already 91 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:27,440 doing the like, I wonder what they're going to be in life. 92 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,880 And it's funny because as you just stated, my life wasn't one 93 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,560 thing. I don't think anybody's is in a 94 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,640 modern world. I don't think anybody has one 95 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,520 job anymore. And yet we're still doing that 96 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,840 thing of like, I wonder what they're going to be like. 97 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:42,080 They'll be a firefighter and that's it. 98 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,560 That's their whole life. And I just, I assume for my kids 99 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,320 generation, I think the change will be even greater. 100 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,520 You know, the mobility from job to job and life to life will be 101 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,600 even more than it was for SO. That is such a great point that 102 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,160 this jet first of all I I wondered if do you are your kids 103 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:03,920 generation alpha like mine or no? 104 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,000 Generation alpha I think is 2023 so are they Gen. 105 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,680 Z? My my older 1 is very proud and 106 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,520 I think he just catches Gen. Z like by a few months or 107 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,040 something. He's born late 2012 but but 108 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:16,520 otherwise I guess they're Gen. alpha. 109 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,640 Right. Yeah, I think. 20/20/14 was the 110 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,360 other. One, yes, 2014, I think that's 111 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,600 right, yeah, because my kids are Gen. alpha. 112 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:23,840 They're not even 2 years old yet. 113 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:25,760 But I mean, it's just mind boggling, right? 114 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:31,400 But when you talk about that, that you know what their lives 115 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,240 will be like and that, you know, we're, we're so accustomed to 116 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,960 saying like, what are they going to be when they grow up? 117 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,640 Sometimes I even ask myself that I'm 33 years old and I'm like 118 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:39,520 what am I? Going to be it's like. 119 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,400 Hopefully a really well adjusted adult. 120 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:45,160 We'll see. We'll see how that works out. 121 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,480 No, but you know it. It is a funny thing that you 122 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,120 mentioned because I've never actually thought about that, 123 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,840 that here I'm like, oh, maybe they'll be doctors or maybe 124 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:54,880 they'll be dentists. Maybe they'll be whatever it 125 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:56,560 might be, right? Fire people. 126 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,480 Fire. I say fire people because 127 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,320 they're girls, but I guess firemen, right? 128 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Firefighters there. We go firefighters. 129 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,000 Firefighters, yeah, that covers both of them, so. 130 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,160 It covers them both and, and yet like Gen. 131 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:13,000 Z, like your oldest, they're doing everything like the elder 132 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,280 Gen. ZS, Even millennials like 133 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:16,880 myself. I mean, my podcast is a job, My 134 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:21,520 full time job is a job and there is no longer this like 1 135 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,800 singular path for people. So that's really fascinating. 136 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,080 It'll be really interesting to see. 137 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,600 Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And and you know, look, we're in 138 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,000 a space at the moment with AI, who knows even what jobs will 139 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,760 be. Yeah, let's even say my older 1 140 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,000 coming out of college, which is like 8-9 years away from now, 141 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:45,040 like the landscape of what jobs you are intending to get will 142 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,840 have changed again quite dramatically, especially the the 143 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,840 the world that I've been in, you know, human interaction, sales, 144 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:54,760 things like that. They will be different. 145 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,560 I'm not saying they disappeared. They'll definitely be different. 146 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,120 Totally, totally. It's so true. 147 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,440 I know. It's like, are we all going to 148 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,720 be like AI handlers at some point? 149 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,720 Like I guess all our jobs get taken away by AI. 150 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,560 I'm dying to know what the rest of us do exactly to buy stuff 151 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,280 but. Right, and this is where the 152 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,360 cynicism comes into our conversation. 153 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,160 Exactly. Enter cynicism. 154 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,160 No, it's, it's really interesting because of course in 155 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,120 HR having a podcast, AI comes up. 156 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,920 Literally I get an e-mail about a guest wanting to talk about AI 157 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:29,800 every day. And you know what? 158 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:34,320 I entertain every single topic suggestion because it is like 159 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,880 the number one thing. The amount of times that my 160 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,640 husband and I use Chachi PT for something, I was just telling 161 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:41,600 you, we're trying to buy a house. 162 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,720 We look up like market value stuff on Chachi PT that 163 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,400 otherwise is really hard to find and sift through online. 164 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,360 And you know, it's interesting because there are so many 165 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,240 perspectives, cynical and otherwise, around AI, like AI is 166 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,880 going to take our jobs or AI is the best thing since sliced 167 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:01,920 bread. We need to like harness it and 168 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,000 sometimes like a mixture of both of those things. 169 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,840 And so it's it'll be interesting, I think to see 170 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,800 really what the next 5-10 fifteen years AI transforms so 171 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,120 rapidly, it might not even be yeah. 172 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,200 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Who knows what even five years 173 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,160 is, but I'm we're going to get into it, obviously. 174 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,240 But I'll give you an interesting one, which is, yes, I'm going to 175 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,880 argue with us today, Tracy, that being a cynical employee and 176 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,440 being a cynical leader are both very positive things. 177 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,200 But actually, if you take a standard leader, they still find 178 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,000 it very hard having somebody beneath them challenge them and 179 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,919 tell them they're wrong in some way. 180 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,400 But I think most people are, are happier to type in to ChatGPT, 181 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,200 what's wrong with my company at the moment? 182 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,440 And when it comes up, they will take it much more objectively. 183 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,400 They will say like, well, that's interesting. 184 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,120 I see that now. But if you ask your best 185 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,680 employee what's wrong with my company right now? 186 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:54,280 And they said, oh, here's all what's wrong with it, you'd feel 187 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,320 an emotional reaction. You'd go, why does this employee 188 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,200 hate the company? And why don't they? 189 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:01,680 Try they complaining, Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 190 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:05,520 What's up with them? Whereas if we ask a robot to be 191 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,360 cynical with us, we will take it in a completely different 192 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,520 manner. That is such a good point. 193 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,640 What is it like? Why is that? 194 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,880 Is it? Is it because there is a lack of 195 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,440 personal perception when you're dealing with a robot and AI and 196 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,720 so there can't be emotion? Well, so here's here's what I'm 197 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,520 the the big point I was here to make is that cynicism is OK. 198 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,160 You know, it's, it's not such a terrible thing. 199 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,840 It's not a bad thing from beneath you. 200 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,760 It's not a bad thing from your leader. 201 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:40,000 And in my world of training and development and being in a room 202 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,880 with strangers and telling them how to live their life, a 203 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,280 healthy dose of cynicism can be wonderful. 204 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,800 But what do all of those things have in common? 205 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:52,200 Just like parenting is that you want people to be happy 206 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,800 ultimately, like as a leader, you want your team to be in a 207 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,120 good mood. You want them to enjoy coming to 208 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,880 work as an employee, you want your company to like you and you 209 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,880 want them to think you're a positive person. 210 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,200 And the challenge with any cynicism from a human is that 211 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,320 your natural reaction is, why is this person unhappy? 212 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,800 What's wrong with them? Why aren't they happy with all 213 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,880 the things I've done? And you know, I teach this 214 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,400 stuff, Tracy, and I'm here to you talking about it today. 215 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,960 But still, when my kids are grumpy, I don't immediately 216 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,920 think, gosh, my poor children. I wonder what's wrong with them. 217 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,960 I think, why are they grumpy after all these amazing things 218 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,440 I've done for them? Like, what's wrong with them? 219 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,400 Why aren't they just happy all the time? 220 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,240 And so we take it as a personal affront in some way. 221 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:43,360 Your cynicism to me seems like lack of effort on my part or I 222 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,000 haven't made the right choices. And so we will take it in a much 223 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,760 more personal manner than we should, especially in a 224 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,880 workplace where we should be asking people to challenge us 225 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,960 and tell us what we can do better. 226 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,120 Absolutely. That makes total sense. 227 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,680 And, and when I reflect on this, you know, cynicism is a 228 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,920 positive. It can be a positive thing. 229 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:11,240 I think about actually partners who I've had in, in my career, 230 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:15,400 who challenged me the most, who were like potentially some of 231 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,720 the most cynical people. Like I'm thinking of a few right 232 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,560 now. Even on the top of my head, some 233 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:22,480 of the most cynical people I have ever met. 234 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:27,080 And I, I have certainly felt that why? 235 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,720 Again, of course they have always have something to say. 236 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,640 There's always something that has to be right. 237 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,480 But actually it's those people who I have some of the best 238 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,360 relationships with because I'm like, oh, they are. 239 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,840 They're looking to make something as best as it can be, 240 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:47,080 and when we do remove that, like emotional or defensive or 241 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,080 personal feeling from that, it's like, OK, let's get to the root 242 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,080 cause of what we're trying to fix here and are we trying to 243 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,320 solve the same thing? Yeah, absolutely. 244 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,640 So you know where this came from for myself as a personal 245 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,920 development was I became a manager quite young. 246 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,600 I was 24 when I took over my first team and frankly, let's be 247 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:13,000 honest, as a pretty cocky young man, naturally, never mind that 248 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,760 I then got promoted up very early and as I moved through the 249 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,200 chain, but my feeling was if I disagreed with people, they 250 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,080 won't like me. So to their face I will just 251 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,280 agree. So anything a boss said to me, 252 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,720 anything a client said to me, I just said, yeah, yeah, no 253 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,320 problem, I'll do that. Walking out the room and then 254 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:31,800 going, now I'm not going to do that thing. 255 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,600 I'll just quietly refuse it. But I, I never had the guts to 256 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,320 speak up properly. But I worked with those people 257 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,800 who were challengers and they spoke their mind and they spoke 258 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,360 up and secretly there was a bit bit of me thinking, I'm really 259 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,720 impressed with that, that they're disagreeing with 260 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,080 somebody above them. But also those were the people 261 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,280 who were sometimes regarded as the troublemakers or the problem 262 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,280 person. And Danny's asking a question 263 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,520 again. And, and so I thought, well, at 264 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,160 least I'm not viewed like that, You know, at least everyone just 265 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,720 likes me. That's fine. 266 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,960 But when I moved into the world of training, what I realized 267 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,240 very quickly was, number one, that I was not a good 268 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,040 participant in training. I was quite negative about it. 269 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,800 I had stuff to do. I had teams to run. 270 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,440 I don't want to be in training. So I was very cynical and very 271 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:25,720 argumentative to the point of annoyance. 272 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,640 But what I realised was partly the root problem was they 273 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,560 weren't giving me any cynicism back. 274 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,560 They were acting like if we all just do this thing, your team 275 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:37,840 will be wonderful. And I was like, but that's not 276 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,560 true. You know, you don't work with 277 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:42,320 the people I work with and they're difficult, that that's 278 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,160 not going to work. I just wanted somebody to be 279 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,040 real with me. So when I started training, 280 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,480 walking into a room of complete strangers, spending the day with 281 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,120 them and like, I'm here as your expert, what I realised very 282 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,720 quickly was a healthy dose of this is a model. 283 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,960 Everybody, this isn't going to fix all your challenges. 284 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,880 You tell me your real challenges and why you disagree with this 285 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,240 and I'll happily argue it out. And I could see people's whole 286 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:15,200 mood switching from, we've been forced to do training again to, 287 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:20,000 you know what, this guy seems kind of realistic, like he might 288 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,840 be right, he might be wrong, but he's not barking his ideas down 289 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,400 my throat as if there's only one right way of doing this. 290 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,440 And so I really adapted this and realized with the leaders I 291 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:37,320 spoke to that on both sides, we were taking cynicism as an 292 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,480 immediate problem. And if somebody disagreed with 293 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,160 me in the room, rather than thinking why are they 294 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,160 disagreeing, was forcing myself to say, hey, at least they're 295 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,520 disagreeing. They're not just sitting there 296 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,320 staring at me and then leaving the room and saying what a 297 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,040 useless trainer. I can deal with somebody 298 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,000 disagreeing. I can argue that out. 299 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,120 And I look back on how many times I as a leader, had had 300 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,000 someone challenge me or say I disagree with that howl and me 301 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,920 just immediately go to, well, you're young and not in charge 302 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,080 and I am, so can you just shut up now as opposed to thinking, 303 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,520 my God, I had people who disagreed with me who were 304 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,880 willing to challenge, who were willing to speak up, and I 305 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:24,280 didn't give them the credence and thank you that they should 306 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,240 have got. That's a fabulous story, 307 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,880 actually, and it does remind me of just putting into perspective 308 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,320 how much vulnerability it requires for someone to speak up 309 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,880 when they disagree. And that there is, you know, 310 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,600 there is certainly something to celebrate there because not only 311 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,880 is it that they're being vulnerable, it's also that they 312 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,080 feel safe enough with you as a leader, whomever that you is 313 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,640 right, you generally with that that leader to be vulnerable and 314 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,960 to share their opinions. And so there, there are kind of 315 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,240 two elements there, which is like, you know, we have to 316 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,840 celebrate that not only for ourselves as leaders, but also 317 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,200 for what they're doing the the particular employee. 318 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,520 And then the second is that this is diversity in thought. 319 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,920 You know, when we're when we are only working within our own echo 320 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,000 chamber, we're not really going to grow, grow that much. 321 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,680 But when we have people who do actively disagree or challenge 322 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,960 our approach or way of thinking, then they might actually have a 323 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,040 better idea than we we initially had ourselves. 324 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,240 And that's the beauty in that, in nurturing. 325 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,040 And, and honestly, what I teach leaders now is the moment 326 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,600 somebody disagrees with you or is willing to speak up and say, 327 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,240 can I give you some feedback or anything like it. 328 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,800 The first words out of a leader's mouth should be thank 329 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,600 you very much for disagreeing with me or telling me what you 330 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,800 think. Now after that, you have the 331 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,640 absolute right as the leader to go. 332 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,440 I'm not going to do that thing like I'm in charge and you're 333 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,440 not. But the first thing should be 334 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,440 thank you. And if you hear somebody in a 335 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,520 meeting, like if you're new at a company and somebody puts their 336 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,160 hand up and says, oh, I think you're wrong. 337 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,640 And he is why? And that leader says, thank you 338 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,000 very much for disagreeing. Look at the power that gives 339 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,359 that new employee like, Oh my God, you're supposed to 340 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,880 disagree. That's what you get praised for 341 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,480 here. And they don't expect all these 342 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,160 answers will get taken on. Nobody expects their boss to 343 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,079 agree with you 100% of the time. But that you're heard, that you 344 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:26,680 weren't just shouted down and they didn't roll their eyes 345 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,360 because you again, were disagreeing, that that puts you 346 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:33,560 in a place where, yes, you will bring your best self to work and 347 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,040 you will help that company grow because you are voicing your 348 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,240 opinions when they need it. Absolutely. 349 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,040 I love that. That's a really great tactical 350 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,960 next step for people to walk away with how they engage when 351 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,920 someone does disagree. So thank you for that. 352 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,640 And I'm curious if you have any advice for when leaders are in a 353 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,920 room with peers, other leaders, other people, managers, right, 354 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:01,280 And there's active disagreement and not a whole lot of 355 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,880 recognition in that disagreement. 356 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,960 How do they navigate that to maybe even just kind of set the 357 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,840 stage themselves and paving the way for how disagreement and 358 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,360 cynicism is is more celebrated and appreciated? 359 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,040 Yeah. So if we take the broader idea 360 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,160 of cynicism here, that we will go looking for challenges and we 361 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,600 will deal with them like we're not just going to sit there 362 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,080 quietly. I'm happy to admit, Tracy, I 363 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,160 don't know about yourself, but the group that I found most 364 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,840 difficult to give feedback to or disagree with or let them know 365 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,200 when they've done something wrong was Peers. 366 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,440 Because going upwards, that's a part of work life and going 367 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,560 downwards, I'm literally paid to tell you when you've done 368 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,080 something wrong or disagree with you. 369 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:48,040 But to peers, what right do I have to challenge you or 370 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,400 disagree or pipe up and say something's annoying me? 371 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,720 So it's twofold. It's really being a person who 372 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,080 invites it much more deliberately. 373 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,720 So with all of those around you saying, number one, please, if I 374 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,200 ever say or do something you disagree with, please let me 375 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,400 know #2 being the person who is receptive to it with thank you. 376 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,400 And just as another little practical tip for you, Tracy, 377 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,360 but everybody, if somebody gives you any challenge or 378 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:20,040 disagreement, say thank you, then come back 24 hours later 379 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:22,200 and give them your response in full. 380 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,560 What that 24 hours means is you took real time to think about 381 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,200 it. You didn't just disagree or 382 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,280 agree in the moment, but also let's be honest, you might have 383 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,600 been a bit upset or offended in the moment. 384 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,520 So you say thank you and then you take 24 hours to calm 385 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,000 yourself and you will give a much more sort of structured 386 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,760 response. So it's offering that to to your 387 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,760 peers as a leader, but also in the room trying to encourage 388 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,240 this sense of dissent with what I teach people a lot. 389 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,840 Tracy is in any meeting, somebody should be given the 390 00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:00,240 role of the cynic because again, what's 1 of the challenges is 391 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,440 that person thinking, oh God, I'm always the one disagreeing. 392 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,720 I always have to be the one to voice it. 393 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,120 So actually, let's give somebody that role. 394 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,800 Your job in this meeting is to say what's wrong with the ideas 395 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,400 and why it won't work and therefore you take all the 396 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,440 stress off of the emotional side of it. 397 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,200 I'm not doing this because I don't like you. 398 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,800 I'm not doing this to be difficult. 399 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,280 I'm doing this because you asked me to do this in this meeting. 400 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,280 And tomorrow it will be Tracy who takes on that role. 401 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,400 So to our conversation about AI earlier, it makes it objective, 402 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,560 it takes away the human element and we've asked you to be almost 403 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,320 computer like nasty and critical of our ideas. 404 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,800 So it's not you the person doing it. 405 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,080 So when you have that critical person, rotate that role almost 406 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,400 deliberately. Interesting. 407 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,880 It's probably also quite a challenge for some people who 408 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,760 are not naturally the ones to speak up or speak out about 409 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,000 something they disagree with. So it challenges them in a 410 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,080 different way too, right, from a skill set standpoint. 411 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:07,160 And I wonder when it comes to being that cynic, is there a 412 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,040 right way or a wrong way to go about it? 413 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,040 Like I think about tones and you know, the delivery sometimes of, 414 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,600 of cynical messages, right? Like what are your thoughts 415 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,320 there? So yes, look, you know, for all 416 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,720 I'm arguing for cynicism, let's be really real here and say that 417 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,040 some people are just negative and annoying and rude. 418 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,800 Like, that's not being usefully cynical, that's just being rude. 419 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,040 So, yeah, how do we do this positively if, you know, this is 420 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,600 your inclination, if you want to be allowed to be your natural 421 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,520 self and challenge people, Yes. Literally down to tone of voice 422 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,800 is very important. You know, there's a thing called 423 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,480 code switching. I'm sure you've come across, 424 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,320 Tracy, that we are different people in different areas of 425 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,720 life. And I always say as a joke, I'm 426 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,880 nearly 50 years old, but I still regress to almost being a surly 427 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,840 teenager when I'm around my parents. 428 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,400 Like, it never goes away this sort of almost instant, like I'm 429 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,960 doing it. Yeah. 430 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,200 Like, what's your problem? Like, it never goes away. 431 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,040 So it's just from literally like, what is your tone of voice 432 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,360 at this moment? Are you being a useful employee 433 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,720 who is challenging your boss with a genuinely real view of 434 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,080 why this is wrong or a different idea? 435 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,560 Or are you rolling your eyes and saying, well, that's not going 436 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,800 to work and here's why. The first one will be listened 437 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,160 to, the second one will be dismissed as Howell always does 438 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,680 that in a meeting. So yes, it is absolutely on us 439 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,800 to bring our citizens to the fore in the right way, just as 440 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,880 it is a leader. You used the word vulnerable 441 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,440 earlier on. I agree with it 100%. 442 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,160 As a leader, it is the vulnerability to say, you know, 443 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,280 here's what I'm asking you. But I see the challenges, but 444 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,840 again, not in a tone of voice of look, there's challenges, but 445 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,440 just get on and do it. But I'm with you. 446 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,200 I understand this is not going to be easy. 447 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,800 You know, I was in newspapers in the 2000s, not an easy time for 448 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,200 newspapers. But our targets kept going up. 449 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,960 And it was this real challenge of, well, how do I present these 450 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,560 numbers to a team who know we're not going to hit some of these? 451 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,400 It's not a debate. It's just not going to happen. 452 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,080 So if I say, hey, everybody, we've got new targets and 453 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,400 they're up 10%, let's go. I sound like an idiot. 454 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,440 But if I say, look, the targets have gone up, that's just how 455 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,080 businesses work. Here's what I think we can do, 456 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,480 and here's the challenges we've got, guys. 457 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,640 We're in this together. So what I call it a lot is 458 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,280 realistic optimism. It is my job as your boss to be 459 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,800 optimistic. Otherwise nobody's going to 460 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,920 achieve anything. But the realistic part is 461 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,000 there's challenges here. And I'm with you. 462 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,000 And to your point, the literal tone of voice of that moment 463 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,400 means a lot to how it's received by that group. 464 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,160 Totally. That is such a great example. 465 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,200 And I think that there are a lot of listeners in the audience who 466 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,360 either are leaders or aspiring leaders. 467 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,440 And, and there is, there is kind of like a, a methodology to 468 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,880 follow here when we think about being most successful in trying 469 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,440 times because there's, it doesn't matter what year, what 470 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,400 decade, there's always an ebb and flow to business. 471 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,920 There are always layoffs and they're always hiring sprints 472 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,440 and whatever it is, people have to be able to navigate those 473 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,840 challenges in a way that as you've as you've shared, is it 474 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,920 realistically optimistic? And I love that. 475 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,200 I think that's awesome. And I guess as a a final 476 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:46,040 question, you know, when when people think about how they can 477 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:51,960 be more powerfully or usefully cynical to to drive or move the 478 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,560 needle forward, what are some things that other than like kind 479 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,800 of passing around the cynic role, what are some things that 480 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,800 they can do today, especially if it's something hard for them to 481 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,480 do? As in being cynical is hard or 482 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,840 the the challenge? In front of the hard being, 483 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,240 being cynical is hard because not everyone is so outspoken in 484 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,400 such a way. No, no, absolutely. 485 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,320 And look, on the other side of this, somebody might be 486 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,600 listening to this quite legitimately and saying I'm just 487 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,000 a naturally optimistic person and I'm naturally positive. 488 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,760 Is Howl telling me I have to be negative? 489 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,440 No, not at all. But for both sides of that 490 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,480 equation, you know, those of us who are naturally negative, 491 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,320 cynical, looking for challenges, I would challenge any of those 492 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,680 people that your role in any meeting should be to push the 493 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,320 other side of you and say, well, what's the optimistic piece? 494 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,040 And the opportunity I'm not seeing. 495 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,200 But yes, for anyone who's naturally optimistic or quiet or 496 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,680 just not comfortable voicing it is to challenge yourself and 497 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,320 say, well, then what is the thing you're willing to 498 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,120 challenge? You know, what is the piece 499 00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,400 right now that you feel comfortable? 500 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,760 Because we're all in a very different place at work. 501 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,000 If I'm new, if I'm worried for my job at any moment, I don't 502 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,080 expect anyone to start mouthing off about what they think is 503 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,360 wrong. But take that moment and think, 504 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:14,960 well, what can you voice that you know will add value to this 505 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,760 person so that actually, whatever their relationship to 506 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,520 you, they leave that meeting or that room Saying Tracy was 507 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:27,120 positive when I needed her to be, but usefully cynical or 508 00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,440 challenging when there was something she disagreed with. 509 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:32,960 So again, thinking, what's my tone here? 510 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,320 And a good way of thinking about it, not unlike how we give 511 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,720 feedback. So if you know the radical 512 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,120 candor method of feedback, but how much we challenge and how 513 00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:46,800 much we care, it's the same thing. 514 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,640 Why are you being cynical? That's the question. 515 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,680 Are you being cynical because you're in a bad mood? 516 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,720 Because if that's true, no, it's not going to come out very well. 517 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,960 But if you are being cynical or challenging or disagreeing 518 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,720 because you honestly want this other person to be better, or 519 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,080 want the company to be better, or want your team to succeed, 520 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,720 you can feel that. People can feel it in what 521 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,160 you're saying, and you shouldn't fear saying it because you know 522 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,480 you're saying it for the benefit of others. 523 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,960 And that is the big difference. My saying is to get something 524 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,400 off my chest because I'm annoyed or because I honestly want to 525 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,480 help people. And if that second thing is 526 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,280 true, people will feel it and take it the way you intended. 527 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,880 Fabulous, fabulous advice for everyone to walk away with. 528 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,120 Howell, thank you so much. Where can everyone find you and 529 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:40,760 learn more about Aliquin Learning and just you and 530 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,000 everything in general? So usefully, I'm the only how 531 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,600 old area in the whole world. So if you type my name into 532 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,760 Google everybody, you'll find me and all my things very quickly. 533 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,720 But alicornlearning.com. So an alicorn is a flying 534 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,000 Unicorn. So we will take your wonderful 535 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,720 unicorns and give them wings. But anything you need to learn, 536 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,560 we can help teams of all sizes and types and love to be useful 537 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,240 to people. Amazing. 538 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,840 Thank you so much. We'll have everything LinkedIn, 539 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,240 the show notes, of course, and it's been such a pleasure 540 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,400 getting to learn from you and hear from you this week. 541 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,600 Thank you. Thank you very much indeed. 542 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,520 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to. 543 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,200 The show so that you are the. 1st to hear when an episode 544 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,000 drops each week and maybe leave a five star review and a comment 545 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,600 about how much you loved this episode. 546 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,920 Plus if you have. Someone in mind who would really 547 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,000 enjoy this episode, make sure you share it with them. 548 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,960 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.