Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've
spent my entire professional career in HR.
Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people
and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create
meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to human resources. Hi, everyone, welcome back to
the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast.
Thank you so much for being here for another week.
This week we're going to be talking a lot about cynicism,
actually. And I was just joking with
Howell, who is my guest this week.
You know, like raise your hand if you've ever been a cynic.
And of course, my hand went out. So I hope that everyone this
episode, I know that you will, but before we get into it, let
me introduce you to Howell Berry, who is the CEO and
founder of Alicorn Learning, which supports leaders and their
teams to be as successful at work as possible.
Howell spent the bulk of his corporate career in sales and
leadership for the Financial Times and ft.com.
During his nine years with the newspaper, he developed, grew
and managed multiple $1,000,000 client relationships.
He also recruited and trained over 60 team members, ultimately
managing a team of 25 and budgets of 50, $1,000,000.
In 2010, Howell transitioned careers and began working for
The Mind Gym, a global training and development organization,
where he ran their global network of over 300 facilitators
and as a trainer and public speaker.
Howell has delivered over 2000 training sessions and 300
keynotes to over 100,000 people around the world, which is
amazing, the largest being a Group of 7000 at the United
Center in Chicago. Howell has worked with Fortune
500 companies as diverse as Nike, Deloitte, and Microsoft,
as well as startups like Etsy, Uber, and Rivian.
His work has covered a wide range of topics from leadership
development to diversity, equity and inclusion to storytelling
and many more. Alicorn Learning also works with
internal trainers to organizations to support them in
delivering the best training programs possible for their
teams. And by the way, alongside his
corporate and training work, Howell has worked as a
screenwriter, selling scripts to the BB, CC and MTV.
And he's author of the Screenwriter's Journey and works
with new screenwriters to help them kick start their writing
career. So Howell, you have done some
tremendous things throughout your career.
Welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for being here.
Thank. You so much sounds exhausting
when you just hear it all. Spoken, you know, aren't you
tired? I think that's why I nap so much
now. Now that my I.
Was going to see right, I was going to say, you might, you
might need a nap, a sabbatical, some PTO, whatever you need to
take. No, I mean, it's amazing And,
and it's really funny. I think the, the audience is
used to hearing this, but guess whenever they hear their BIOS
read, because I do read them right in front of you, they're
like, Oh my gosh, I did all of that or wow, that's a lot.
And you know, it's it. I think it's actually a very
important exercise. It's why I don't separately
record the BIOS because otherwise we just, you know,
life passes us and we don't totally remember all that we've
done, you know? So kudos.
To you. Well, thank you, thank you.
And you know, mine was definitely separated into
blocks, like definitely different chunks of my life.
And but it's funny when you hear it like that again, reminding
yourself sort of the genesis of how you got to to hear you don't
know in your 20s which way you're going to go, do you?
It's interesting to see what happens. 1000% I know it's,
it's, it's amazing. I always, as a mom especially, I
always think about how life is really like a series of books
and certainly one book with many chapters.
And you know, you're in your 20s, that's one whole chapter.
You're in your 30s, that's another chapter.
And when you're in those decades, you're, you're not
always thinking about life in that way.
But I think once I became a mom, I was like, oh, wow, this is
like a totally new chapter of my life.
And then when they're 18, that's going to be a different chapter
in my life because then, you know, what does my life look
like? It's just so interesting, right?
To zoom out and be like, whoa, I'm going to have a whole
different life in another 17 years.
I mean, mine are getting old and out at their 12 and 11.
And so, you know, we're 2/3 of the way through them being with
us. We've got, you know, six years,
that's it. And my wife and I are already
doing the like, I wonder what they're going to be in life.
And it's funny because as you just stated, my life wasn't one
thing. I don't think anybody's is in a
modern world. I don't think anybody has one
job anymore. And yet we're still doing that
thing of like, I wonder what they're going to be like.
They'll be a firefighter and that's it.
That's their whole life. And I just, I assume for my kids
generation, I think the change will be even greater.
You know, the mobility from job to job and life to life will be
even more than it was for SO. That is such a great point that
this jet first of all I I wondered if do you are your kids
generation alpha like mine or no?
Generation alpha I think is 2023 so are they Gen.
Z? My my older 1 is very proud and
I think he just catches Gen. Z like by a few months or
something. He's born late 2012 but but
otherwise I guess they're Gen. alpha.
Right. Yeah, I think. 20/20/14 was the
other. One, yes, 2014, I think that's
right, yeah, because my kids are Gen. alpha.
They're not even 2 years old yet.
But I mean, it's just mind boggling, right?
But when you talk about that, that you know what their lives
will be like and that, you know, we're, we're so accustomed to
saying like, what are they going to be when they grow up?
Sometimes I even ask myself that I'm 33 years old and I'm like
what am I? Going to be it's like.
Hopefully a really well adjusted adult.
We'll see. We'll see how that works out.
No, but you know it. It is a funny thing that you
mentioned because I've never actually thought about that,
that here I'm like, oh, maybe they'll be doctors or maybe
they'll be dentists. Maybe they'll be whatever it
might be, right? Fire people.
Fire. I say fire people because
they're girls, but I guess firemen, right?
Firefighters there. We go firefighters.
Firefighters, yeah, that covers both of them, so.
It covers them both and, and yet like Gen.
Z, like your oldest, they're doing everything like the elder
Gen. ZS, Even millennials like
myself. I mean, my podcast is a job, My
full time job is a job and there is no longer this like 1
singular path for people. So that's really fascinating.
It'll be really interesting to see.
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And and you know, look, we're in
a space at the moment with AI, who knows even what jobs will
be. Yeah, let's even say my older 1
coming out of college, which is like 8-9 years away from now,
like the landscape of what jobs you are intending to get will
have changed again quite dramatically, especially the the
the world that I've been in, you know, human interaction, sales,
things like that. They will be different.
I'm not saying they disappeared. They'll definitely be different.
Totally, totally. It's so true.
I know. It's like, are we all going to
be like AI handlers at some point?
Like I guess all our jobs get taken away by AI.
I'm dying to know what the rest of us do exactly to buy stuff
but. Right, and this is where the
cynicism comes into our conversation.
Exactly. Enter cynicism.
No, it's, it's really interesting because of course in
HR having a podcast, AI comes up.
Literally I get an e-mail about a guest wanting to talk about AI
every day. And you know what?
I entertain every single topic suggestion because it is like
the number one thing. The amount of times that my
husband and I use Chachi PT for something, I was just telling
you, we're trying to buy a house.
We look up like market value stuff on Chachi PT that
otherwise is really hard to find and sift through online.
And you know, it's interesting because there are so many
perspectives, cynical and otherwise, around AI, like AI is
going to take our jobs or AI is the best thing since sliced
bread. We need to like harness it and
sometimes like a mixture of both of those things.
And so it's it'll be interesting, I think to see
really what the next 5-10 fifteen years AI transforms so
rapidly, it might not even be yeah.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Who knows what even five years
is, but I'm we're going to get into it, obviously.
But I'll give you an interesting one, which is, yes, I'm going to
argue with us today, Tracy, that being a cynical employee and
being a cynical leader are both very positive things.
But actually, if you take a standard leader, they still find
it very hard having somebody beneath them challenge them and
tell them they're wrong in some way.
But I think most people are, are happier to type in to ChatGPT,
what's wrong with my company at the moment?
And when it comes up, they will take it much more objectively.
They will say like, well, that's interesting.
I see that now. But if you ask your best
employee what's wrong with my company right now?
And they said, oh, here's all what's wrong with it, you'd feel
an emotional reaction. You'd go, why does this employee
hate the company? And why don't they?
Try they complaining, Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
What's up with them? Whereas if we ask a robot to be
cynical with us, we will take it in a completely different
manner. That is such a good point.
What is it like? Why is that?
Is it? Is it because there is a lack of
personal perception when you're dealing with a robot and AI and
so there can't be emotion? Well, so here's here's what I'm
the the big point I was here to make is that cynicism is OK.
You know, it's, it's not such a terrible thing.
It's not a bad thing from beneath you.
It's not a bad thing from your leader.
And in my world of training and development and being in a room
with strangers and telling them how to live their life, a
healthy dose of cynicism can be wonderful.
But what do all of those things have in common?
Just like parenting is that you want people to be happy
ultimately, like as a leader, you want your team to be in a
good mood. You want them to enjoy coming to
work as an employee, you want your company to like you and you
want them to think you're a positive person.
And the challenge with any cynicism from a human is that
your natural reaction is, why is this person unhappy?
What's wrong with them? Why aren't they happy with all
the things I've done? And you know, I teach this
stuff, Tracy, and I'm here to you talking about it today.
But still, when my kids are grumpy, I don't immediately
think, gosh, my poor children. I wonder what's wrong with them.
I think, why are they grumpy after all these amazing things
I've done for them? Like, what's wrong with them?
Why aren't they just happy all the time?
And so we take it as a personal affront in some way.
Your cynicism to me seems like lack of effort on my part or I
haven't made the right choices. And so we will take it in a much
more personal manner than we should, especially in a
workplace where we should be asking people to challenge us
and tell us what we can do better.
Absolutely. That makes total sense.
And, and when I reflect on this, you know, cynicism is a
positive. It can be a positive thing.
I think about actually partners who I've had in, in my career,
who challenged me the most, who were like potentially some of
the most cynical people. Like I'm thinking of a few right
now. Even on the top of my head, some
of the most cynical people I have ever met.
And I, I have certainly felt that why?
Again, of course they have always have something to say.
There's always something that has to be right.
But actually it's those people who I have some of the best
relationships with because I'm like, oh, they are.
They're looking to make something as best as it can be,
and when we do remove that, like emotional or defensive or
personal feeling from that, it's like, OK, let's get to the root
cause of what we're trying to fix here and are we trying to
solve the same thing? Yeah, absolutely.
So you know where this came from for myself as a personal
development was I became a manager quite young.
I was 24 when I took over my first team and frankly, let's be
honest, as a pretty cocky young man, naturally, never mind that
I then got promoted up very early and as I moved through the
chain, but my feeling was if I disagreed with people, they
won't like me. So to their face I will just
agree. So anything a boss said to me,
anything a client said to me, I just said, yeah, yeah, no
problem, I'll do that. Walking out the room and then
going, now I'm not going to do that thing.
I'll just quietly refuse it. But I, I never had the guts to
speak up properly. But I worked with those people
who were challengers and they spoke their mind and they spoke
up and secretly there was a bit bit of me thinking, I'm really
impressed with that, that they're disagreeing with
somebody above them. But also those were the people
who were sometimes regarded as the troublemakers or the problem
person. And Danny's asking a question
again. And, and so I thought, well, at
least I'm not viewed like that, You know, at least everyone just
likes me. That's fine.
But when I moved into the world of training, what I realized
very quickly was, number one, that I was not a good
participant in training. I was quite negative about it.
I had stuff to do. I had teams to run.
I don't want to be in training. So I was very cynical and very
argumentative to the point of annoyance.
But what I realised was partly the root problem was they
weren't giving me any cynicism back.
They were acting like if we all just do this thing, your team
will be wonderful. And I was like, but that's not
true. You know, you don't work with
the people I work with and they're difficult, that that's
not going to work. I just wanted somebody to be
real with me. So when I started training,
walking into a room of complete strangers, spending the day with
them and like, I'm here as your expert, what I realised very
quickly was a healthy dose of this is a model.
Everybody, this isn't going to fix all your challenges.
You tell me your real challenges and why you disagree with this
and I'll happily argue it out. And I could see people's whole
mood switching from, we've been forced to do training again to,
you know what, this guy seems kind of realistic, like he might
be right, he might be wrong, but he's not barking his ideas down
my throat as if there's only one right way of doing this.
And so I really adapted this and realized with the leaders I
spoke to that on both sides, we were taking cynicism as an
immediate problem. And if somebody disagreed with
me in the room, rather than thinking why are they
disagreeing, was forcing myself to say, hey, at least they're
disagreeing. They're not just sitting there
staring at me and then leaving the room and saying what a
useless trainer. I can deal with somebody
disagreeing. I can argue that out.
And I look back on how many times I as a leader, had had
someone challenge me or say I disagree with that howl and me
just immediately go to, well, you're young and not in charge
and I am, so can you just shut up now as opposed to thinking,
my God, I had people who disagreed with me who were
willing to challenge, who were willing to speak up, and I
didn't give them the credence and thank you that they should
have got. That's a fabulous story,
actually, and it does remind me of just putting into perspective
how much vulnerability it requires for someone to speak up
when they disagree. And that there is, you know,
there is certainly something to celebrate there because not only
is it that they're being vulnerable, it's also that they
feel safe enough with you as a leader, whomever that you is
right, you generally with that that leader to be vulnerable and
to share their opinions. And so there, there are kind of
two elements there, which is like, you know, we have to
celebrate that not only for ourselves as leaders, but also
for what they're doing the the particular employee.
And then the second is that this is diversity in thought.
You know, when we're when we are only working within our own echo
chamber, we're not really going to grow, grow that much.
But when we have people who do actively disagree or challenge
our approach or way of thinking, then they might actually have a
better idea than we we initially had ourselves.
And that's the beauty in that, in nurturing.
And, and honestly, what I teach leaders now is the moment
somebody disagrees with you or is willing to speak up and say,
can I give you some feedback or anything like it.
The first words out of a leader's mouth should be thank
you very much for disagreeing with me or telling me what you
think. Now after that, you have the
absolute right as the leader to go.
I'm not going to do that thing like I'm in charge and you're
not. But the first thing should be
thank you. And if you hear somebody in a
meeting, like if you're new at a company and somebody puts their
hand up and says, oh, I think you're wrong.
And he is why? And that leader says, thank you
very much for disagreeing. Look at the power that gives
that new employee like, Oh my God, you're supposed to
disagree. That's what you get praised for
here. And they don't expect all these
answers will get taken on. Nobody expects their boss to
agree with you 100% of the time. But that you're heard, that you
weren't just shouted down and they didn't roll their eyes
because you again, were disagreeing, that that puts you
in a place where, yes, you will bring your best self to work and
you will help that company grow because you are voicing your
opinions when they need it. Absolutely.
I love that. That's a really great tactical
next step for people to walk away with how they engage when
someone does disagree. So thank you for that.
And I'm curious if you have any advice for when leaders are in a
room with peers, other leaders, other people, managers, right,
And there's active disagreement and not a whole lot of
recognition in that disagreement.
How do they navigate that to maybe even just kind of set the
stage themselves and paving the way for how disagreement and
cynicism is is more celebrated and appreciated?
Yeah. So if we take the broader idea
of cynicism here, that we will go looking for challenges and we
will deal with them like we're not just going to sit there
quietly. I'm happy to admit, Tracy, I
don't know about yourself, but the group that I found most
difficult to give feedback to or disagree with or let them know
when they've done something wrong was Peers.
Because going upwards, that's a part of work life and going
downwards, I'm literally paid to tell you when you've done
something wrong or disagree with you.
But to peers, what right do I have to challenge you or
disagree or pipe up and say something's annoying me?
So it's twofold. It's really being a person who
invites it much more deliberately.
So with all of those around you saying, number one, please, if I
ever say or do something you disagree with, please let me
know #2 being the person who is receptive to it with thank you.
And just as another little practical tip for you, Tracy,
but everybody, if somebody gives you any challenge or
disagreement, say thank you, then come back 24 hours later
and give them your response in full.
What that 24 hours means is you took real time to think about
it. You didn't just disagree or
agree in the moment, but also let's be honest, you might have
been a bit upset or offended in the moment.
So you say thank you and then you take 24 hours to calm
yourself and you will give a much more sort of structured
response. So it's offering that to to your
peers as a leader, but also in the room trying to encourage
this sense of dissent with what I teach people a lot.
Tracy is in any meeting, somebody should be given the
role of the cynic because again, what's 1 of the challenges is
that person thinking, oh God, I'm always the one disagreeing.
I always have to be the one to voice it.
So actually, let's give somebody that role.
Your job in this meeting is to say what's wrong with the ideas
and why it won't work and therefore you take all the
stress off of the emotional side of it.
I'm not doing this because I don't like you.
I'm not doing this to be difficult.
I'm doing this because you asked me to do this in this meeting.
And tomorrow it will be Tracy who takes on that role.
So to our conversation about AI earlier, it makes it objective,
it takes away the human element and we've asked you to be almost
computer like nasty and critical of our ideas.
So it's not you the person doing it.
So when you have that critical person, rotate that role almost
deliberately. Interesting.
It's probably also quite a challenge for some people who
are not naturally the ones to speak up or speak out about
something they disagree with. So it challenges them in a
different way too, right, from a skill set standpoint.
And I wonder when it comes to being that cynic, is there a
right way or a wrong way to go about it?
Like I think about tones and you know, the delivery sometimes of,
of cynical messages, right? Like what are your thoughts
there? So yes, look, you know, for all
I'm arguing for cynicism, let's be really real here and say that
some people are just negative and annoying and rude.
Like, that's not being usefully cynical, that's just being rude.
So, yeah, how do we do this positively if, you know, this is
your inclination, if you want to be allowed to be your natural
self and challenge people, Yes. Literally down to tone of voice
is very important. You know, there's a thing called
code switching. I'm sure you've come across,
Tracy, that we are different people in different areas of
life. And I always say as a joke, I'm
nearly 50 years old, but I still regress to almost being a surly
teenager when I'm around my parents.
Like, it never goes away this sort of almost instant, like I'm
doing it. Yeah.
Like, what's your problem? Like, it never goes away.
So it's just from literally like, what is your tone of voice
at this moment? Are you being a useful employee
who is challenging your boss with a genuinely real view of
why this is wrong or a different idea?
Or are you rolling your eyes and saying, well, that's not going
to work and here's why. The first one will be listened
to, the second one will be dismissed as Howell always does
that in a meeting. So yes, it is absolutely on us
to bring our citizens to the fore in the right way, just as
it is a leader. You used the word vulnerable
earlier on. I agree with it 100%.
As a leader, it is the vulnerability to say, you know,
here's what I'm asking you. But I see the challenges, but
again, not in a tone of voice of look, there's challenges, but
just get on and do it. But I'm with you.
I understand this is not going to be easy.
You know, I was in newspapers in the 2000s, not an easy time for
newspapers. But our targets kept going up.
And it was this real challenge of, well, how do I present these
numbers to a team who know we're not going to hit some of these?
It's not a debate. It's just not going to happen.
So if I say, hey, everybody, we've got new targets and
they're up 10%, let's go. I sound like an idiot.
But if I say, look, the targets have gone up, that's just how
businesses work. Here's what I think we can do,
and here's the challenges we've got, guys.
We're in this together. So what I call it a lot is
realistic optimism. It is my job as your boss to be
optimistic. Otherwise nobody's going to
achieve anything. But the realistic part is
there's challenges here. And I'm with you.
And to your point, the literal tone of voice of that moment
means a lot to how it's received by that group.
Totally. That is such a great example.
And I think that there are a lot of listeners in the audience who
either are leaders or aspiring leaders.
And, and there is, there is kind of like a, a methodology to
follow here when we think about being most successful in trying
times because there's, it doesn't matter what year, what
decade, there's always an ebb and flow to business.
There are always layoffs and they're always hiring sprints
and whatever it is, people have to be able to navigate those
challenges in a way that as you've as you've shared, is it
realistically optimistic? And I love that.
I think that's awesome. And I guess as a a final
question, you know, when when people think about how they can
be more powerfully or usefully cynical to to drive or move the
needle forward, what are some things that other than like kind
of passing around the cynic role, what are some things that
they can do today, especially if it's something hard for them to
do? As in being cynical is hard or
the the challenge? In front of the hard being,
being cynical is hard because not everyone is so outspoken in
such a way. No, no, absolutely.
And look, on the other side of this, somebody might be
listening to this quite legitimately and saying I'm just
a naturally optimistic person and I'm naturally positive.
Is Howl telling me I have to be negative?
No, not at all. But for both sides of that
equation, you know, those of us who are naturally negative,
cynical, looking for challenges, I would challenge any of those
people that your role in any meeting should be to push the
other side of you and say, well, what's the optimistic piece?
And the opportunity I'm not seeing.
But yes, for anyone who's naturally optimistic or quiet or
just not comfortable voicing it is to challenge yourself and
say, well, then what is the thing you're willing to
challenge? You know, what is the piece
right now that you feel comfortable?
Because we're all in a very different place at work.
If I'm new, if I'm worried for my job at any moment, I don't
expect anyone to start mouthing off about what they think is
wrong. But take that moment and think,
well, what can you voice that you know will add value to this
person so that actually, whatever their relationship to
you, they leave that meeting or that room Saying Tracy was
positive when I needed her to be, but usefully cynical or
challenging when there was something she disagreed with.
So again, thinking, what's my tone here?
And a good way of thinking about it, not unlike how we give
feedback. So if you know the radical
candor method of feedback, but how much we challenge and how
much we care, it's the same thing.
Why are you being cynical? That's the question.
Are you being cynical because you're in a bad mood?
Because if that's true, no, it's not going to come out very well.
But if you are being cynical or challenging or disagreeing
because you honestly want this other person to be better, or
want the company to be better, or want your team to succeed,
you can feel that. People can feel it in what
you're saying, and you shouldn't fear saying it because you know
you're saying it for the benefit of others.
And that is the big difference. My saying is to get something
off my chest because I'm annoyed or because I honestly want to
help people. And if that second thing is
true, people will feel it and take it the way you intended.
Fabulous, fabulous advice for everyone to walk away with.
Howell, thank you so much. Where can everyone find you and
learn more about Aliquin Learning and just you and
everything in general? So usefully, I'm the only how
old area in the whole world. So if you type my name into
Google everybody, you'll find me and all my things very quickly.
But alicornlearning.com. So an alicorn is a flying
Unicorn. So we will take your wonderful
unicorns and give them wings. But anything you need to learn,
we can help teams of all sizes and types and love to be useful
to people. Amazing.
Thank you so much. We'll have everything LinkedIn,
the show notes, of course, and it's been such a pleasure
getting to learn from you and hear from you this week.
Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.
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