1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,160 Welcome back to the Bringing the human Back to Human resources 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,880 podcast, The Replay series. I'm your host, Tracy Turn off, 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,080 and I'm thrilled to have you join us once again as we journey 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,840 through the episodes that have top charts around the world. 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,800 In this podcast series, we're revisiting some of our most 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,200 insightful, thought provoking, and transformative conversations 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,640 with industry experts, thought leaders, and practitioners. 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,400 These episodes have made waves, sparking meaningful conversation 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,360 and inspiring positive change throughout human resources. 10 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,120 Whether you're a dedicated listener who's been with us from 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,280 the start or you're just tuning in for the first time, the 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,240 Replay series offers a chance to dive deep into the core 13 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,800 principles that guide our exploration into HR practices. 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,520 So get ready to rediscover the discussions that continue to 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,800 shape the future of HR. Without further ado, let's step 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,960 back in time and immerse ourselves into the podcasts top 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,360 charted episodes. Let the replay begin. 18 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,440 Hi everyone, welcome back to the Bringing the human back to human 19 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Resources podcast. Thank you so much for being here 20 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,840 for another week. This is probably the most 21 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,040 interesting episode that I have ever done because I know that 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,920 most of the guests I think that I've had on before have been 23 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,680 pretty aligned with like HR and what we do. 24 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,920 But this week I actually have Dan Goodman who is the counter 25 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,480 to HR. And he's the counter to HR 26 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:25,880 because he advocates for employees when they don't have 27 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,320 anyone else to depend on. And often when there are 28 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,200 unfortunately HR professionals who really are not doing the 29 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,120 right thing in businesses or are doing things that they believe 30 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,920 are the right way to go about things and therefore not 31 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,720 supporting employees. So we're going to, it might be a 32 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,120 little divisive. Some people might, you know, 33 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,840 get, I don't know, maybe even a little defensive when they're 34 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,160 listening. But I think that's OK because 35 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,320 this is Dan, you're probably the first voice that we have had on 36 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,640 this podcast who really challenges us to think 37 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:05,200 differently about HR, about what we do, who we are, and reminds 38 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,240 us that unfortunately, there are practitioners out there who are 39 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,000 who do live up to some of these stigma. 40 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:15,840 So I'm going to introduce Dan so everyone knows who you are and 41 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,240 what you do. So Dan Goodman has dedicated his 42 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,400 life to standing up for people who need help. 43 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,120 He prides himself on being unafraid to speak the truth and 44 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,120 empowering others to advocate for themselves. 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,960 For decades, people have been conditioned to believe that they 46 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,360 are at the mercy of their employer and that their company 47 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,200 holds all of the power in the relationship. 48 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,600 Dan challenges that notion every day. 49 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:39,680 What started as Dan helping a few people he cared about in 50 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,520 disputes with their employers has turned into Dan Goodman 51 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,520 Employment Advisory DGEA. A veteran of corporate America 52 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,600 himself, Dan has seen company game games and tactics, excuse 53 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,000 me, inside and out in the business world. 54 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,960 He held senior positions in cybersecurity, enterprise 55 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,520 software and executive consulting. 56 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,160 At DGEA. He has successfully helped over 57 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,720 2000 people during critical interactions with their 58 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,600 employer, bringing over 30 plus years of experience to his 59 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,280 passion. DGEA was formed the company 60 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,480 launched February 2023 and has served over 800 plus clients 61 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:17,840 since its inception. Dan combines his extensive 62 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,800 experience, empathy and business acumen into unique approach that 63 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,360 helps employees navigate the challenges of corporate life. 64 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,040 Prior to DGEA, Dan launched True Commish in 2019, a service that 65 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,760 allows any salesperson to audit their own commissions. 66 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,760 At True Commission, Dan helped top performing salespeople 67 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,320 successfully reclaim hundreds of thousands of dollars from their 68 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,440 employers. To this day, True Commission 69 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,680 remains a free resource for anyone to use for a review of 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,280 their commissions or new sales compensation plans. 71 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,560 Dan also has an MBA in Entrepreneurial Studies from 72 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,760 Babson College and ABBA in Finance from the University of 73 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,040 Massachusetts at Amherst. Dan has also been married to his 74 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,000 lovely wife for 32 years and has three children. 75 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,800 He's an avid fan of Boston sports, which we won't get into 76 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,280 since I'm a New York sports fan, but I'm not a Yankee fan, so we 77 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,640 can agree on that it. Was a good night last night 78 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:07,920 then. Yeah, it was a good, it was a 79 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:09,440 good night for everyone but the Yankees. 80 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Exactly. He also cherishes summers and 81 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,560 golf on Cape Cod. Lovely. 82 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,600 Love that, and loves a morning walk with his beloved furry 83 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,079 companion, Sawyer. So Dan, welcome and I'm so 84 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:24,880 excited that we have a counter to HR officially on the podcast. 85 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:27,280 Well, Tracy, thank you so much for that introduction. 86 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:30,080 I'm really excited to be here. I just wanted to make one little 87 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,480 edit to the to the introduction. We are now up to almost 1800 88 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,320 clients helping DGA since we started that 2 February's ago. 89 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,040 So really excited. About. 90 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,520 That I got to update the web. Well, you've been busy growing 91 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,800 by more than 1000 clients, so I can understand why it's not 100% 92 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:48,920 updated. That's amazing. 93 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,160 Well, kudos to you. And I think it for anyone that 94 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,800 is a a reasonable person and especially a a good HR 95 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,640 practitioner, any, I think anyone that is out to help 96 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:04,400 employees during difficult times or during changes or navigating 97 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,760 changes, I think that's a really wonderful thing because it, you 98 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,520 know, we're going to get into this, but there are a lot of 99 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,560 things that happen to employees over the course of or the span 100 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,800 of an employee life cycle that don't always feel so great. 101 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,600 And those moments, you know, if you have an advocate or if you 102 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,760 have someone that you can rely on, whether inside the 103 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,440 organization or outside, I think that's a great thing. 104 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,400 So with that, maybe we should just dive right in. 105 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:36,160 Tell us a little bit about where this term or phrase like counter 106 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,560 HR came from and why this advocating for employees is your 107 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,520 mission. Well, the, the, the term 108 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:46,120 actually came from a client that I was working with before I even 109 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,400 formally started the business. I was basically helping people 110 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,080 for about 6 months at no charge just to sort of navigate and 111 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:54,960 review severances and things like that. 112 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,440 So they kind of said, you know what, you really are like a 113 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,000 counter to HR and I, I loved it and it stuck. 114 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,160 So I, I kept that on my, on my banner. 115 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,560 I'm just someone who always likes to challenge things. 116 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,400 I was, you know, if, if you ask something, you're told because 117 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,240 it just rubs me the wrong way. It always has since I was a kid. 118 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,080 And I just think that everyone deserves transparency and 119 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,040 honesty and fairness and being playing off the same page. 120 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,760 And I really hate it when people that are taken advantage of 121 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,760 based on misinformation or intentional a lack of 122 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,640 information. So that's kind of why I've, I 123 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,560 was shocked about the landscape and how employers have taken 124 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,280 advantage of employees for so long. 125 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,840 And I wanted to step up and be that advocate and resource for 126 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:38,480 people to not have to go at it alone. 127 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:40,400 I agree. I think that's awesome. 128 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,400 And you know, you're right. There are so many and there 129 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,880 unfortunately are still so many examples of people being taken 130 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,880 advantage of in the workforce. And this is where these stigmas 131 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,120 come from, especially with colleagues of mine in the 132 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:55,960 industry. I mean, I've shared on my 133 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:00,880 podcast before in the early stages that some of the best 134 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,800 learning lessons that I'd ever received throughout my career 135 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,200 were were from moments where I interacted with HR leaders. 136 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,720 I never wanted to be like. And so we know that those 137 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,240 Sigma's are real. Like the whole reason I started 138 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:18,080 this podcast was because I've found that there was a major gap 139 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:23,440 and a major issue between what I believe we're supposed to do for 140 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,200 employees, which is very aligning, I think, with your 141 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:31,200 mission and what many HR practitioners often do or feel 142 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,240 they have to do. And so I'm curious. 143 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,880 I know when you and I spoke offline, we talked a lot about 144 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,800 really how employees can navigate layoff moments, 145 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,360 severance and things like that. And, and I bring it up because 146 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,240 we are in the midst of a layoff series on my podcast. 147 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,280 And so you are actually closing out this series for us because 148 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,240 naturally severance and separation agreements are the 149 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,680 last step, unfortunately, in a layoff process. 150 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,440 But I know that one of the things that you do support 151 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,800 employees with in DGA is navigating their severance, 152 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,960 navigating the terms of their separation agreements. 153 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,600 What are some things that you often see that are examples of 154 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,560 people potentially being taken advantage of? 155 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:22,840 And counter to that, what are some things that you often 156 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,760 advise people look out for or do if they are in the midst of this 157 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,680 process to receive a severance once they sign a separation 158 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:34,200 agreement? Absolutely, absolutely. 159 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,799 The first and most important thing is to really understand 160 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,280 what severance is about and why it's offered. 161 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,840 It's literally misrepresented in a massive way. 162 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,400 The the employee has something the employer seeks and is 163 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:48,640 willing to pay a lot of money for. 164 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,760 Thousands, 10s of thousands. I've had clients who've gotten 165 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,040 hundreds of thousands of dollars for signing their severance 166 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,200 agreement. So the first thing is to sort of 167 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,120 level the playing field to be on the same playing field that you 168 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:03,120 have something the employer seeks your, your name on a, on a 169 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,240 release of liability and claims your promise to never sue. 170 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,640 In essence, once you sign a severance is it's as if you 171 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,640 never existed to the company. You're giving up all your rights 172 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,400 and all your claims. They presented as the opposite. 173 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,680 They presented as they're doing you a favor that they, they 174 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:22,800 care, they feel bad, they're helping you transition it really 175 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,280 it it couldn't be further from the truth. 176 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,600 They do it for their own selfish reasons to have you sign a 177 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,520 release of claims. And once you do, you didn't 178 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,600 exist. So the first thing is, let's get 179 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,640 on the same playing field. Let's understand what the game 180 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,040 is, why they offer severance, who benefits from it, and then 181 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,400 attempt to negotiate from that stance. 182 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:44,120 So that that would be the very first thing is that most people 183 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,880 don't understand why they offer severance. 184 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,840 You know who benefits from it? They don't even know that you 185 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:51,880 can negotiate it. A majority of people don't even 186 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,440 know that you can negotiate it. And they've been, they've been 187 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,920 conditioned to faint this way. It's a lack of information, 188 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,800 misinformation that's purposely provided. 189 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,360 So, you know, as far as how to prepare for it, you know, if you 190 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,680 know that a termination is coming, I say start building a 191 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,320 case to respond to it. You know, if it's a legitimate 192 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,280 termination and it's just, you know, business has been bad and 193 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:15,440 they need to lay some people off. 194 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,800 And there's no nefarious actions that are driving it behind the 195 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,240 scenes that you're being included in a rift that you 196 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,120 might not be otherwise, Then that's OK. 197 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,280 These things have to happen. And hopefully your employer will 198 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,400 give you a decent severance package and you'll go off and 199 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,320 sign it and be done. But the people who come to me, 200 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,840 it's, it's often not the case that they shouldn't have been 201 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,720 included in the Rif or they've been targeted or they've been 202 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,640 retaliated against or they or they're, this is being done 203 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,360 because they've gone on too much paternity leave and use the 204 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,960 benefits that they want to promote as being a great 205 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,240 progressive company. But if you use them too much, 206 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:47,400 then, you know, then there's a problem here. 207 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,760 I've heard that many, many times I've worked with 50-60 different 208 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,560 people around a parental leave being retaliated against for 209 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:57,600 taking too much of it. So, yeah, I mean, those are the 210 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,080 things that, you know, be prepared, you know, gather, 211 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,400 gather your information, understand, you know, if there 212 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,240 are nefarious reasons behind your termination, what they are, 213 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,840 call it out. If you're working in a toxic 214 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,240 work environment, describe what's going on so that it's not 215 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,560 your word versus their word. It's you've built out a 216 00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:19,400 compelling case of a dozen different examples of how you've 217 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,520 been treated unfairly, unevenly, in a discriminatory way, in a 218 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:29,040 bullying, in a toxic way. So, yeah, I, I can appreciate 219 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,080 what you're saying. I mean, I fortunately have never 220 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,160 worked for an employer where I've had to make a decision or 221 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,880 terminate someone for nefarious reasons. 222 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,600 And I can say pretty confidently that if I was ever asked to do 223 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,040 that, I probably would not be working at that type of company 224 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,840 because certainly they exist, but that's not really where my 225 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,920 values align. And I can only, you know, I have 226 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,960 AI, have a microphone here. So I can only share my own 227 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:55,720 experience. I'm sure that there are 228 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,720 listeners who are like, oh, no, I've had to do that. 229 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,320 Or yeah, I agree. I would never want to do that. 230 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,320 So it's easy for me to say that I, you know, I'm lucky. 231 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,720 I can go and I can find another job if someone were to ask me to 232 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,280 do that. But I, and I'm also lucky, I 233 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:09,920 think, in some ways that I've never had to. 234 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:16,040 But I know when you and I first spoke that you have very strong 235 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:19,880 opinions that these things when when people are terminated for 236 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,760 nefarious reasons or as a way to cover up other things, because 237 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,560 we do know what happens. We see these lawsuits come about 238 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:28,800 all the time. So there's no denying that. 239 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:35,400 And I my point here is that there it does, I think, send 240 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,680 this message or create the stigma that that is the case in 241 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,920 all companies. So I know I kind of want to get 242 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,960 into this concept and idea that you have around really H Rs 243 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,880 purpose, because I obviously am of the belief that as a 244 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,040 practitioner, I there are sometimes when where 245 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,920 unfortunately I have to terminate someone, but I'm of 246 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,720 the belief that those are for sound reasons and or it's 247 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,800 performance. Obviously that's the sound 248 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,280 reason and, or it's something that you know, from a, an 249 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,280 execution standpoint that I'm able to provide an empathetic 250 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,760 approach. Now I know from speaking with 251 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,800 you, this is really what I want to get into, that there is a, a 252 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:24,840 perception potentially that no matter who it is, like HR 253 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,440 practitioners don't really care that much because this is just 254 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,960 their job. So because we're, we're talking 255 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,800 about this, I want to hear from you directly. 256 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:38,080 Like do you what do you believe H Rs purpose is in the workforce 257 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,720 or in the workplace? And do you believe that there is 258 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,800 a way for an HR practitioner actually to care about that 259 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,000 person on the receiving end of a difficult conversation or a 260 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,880 terminating conversation? All righty. 261 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,520 So a lot there. First of all, I I want to say 262 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,960 that the people who in general work in HR are generally good 263 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,720 people. I actually feel for them a lot 264 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,400 of times they want to do the right thing and they're being 265 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,920 pressured in a really nasty way by leadership to not do it. 266 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,240 And their morals and values are compromised on a regular basis. 267 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,560 And their choice is to leave and be unemployed and go find 268 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,480 another place that may be the same way. 269 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,440 So I, I, I truly do feel for HR. There's a, there's a lot of good 270 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:21,960 people out there and they just have one of the toughest jobs. 271 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,720 They're squeezed in, in two or three different directions. 272 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,360 But ultimately, when push comes to shove, most of them, you 273 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,160 know, have to take care of themselves as most people would 274 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,120 do. And that's why this sort of 275 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,320 farce of employment and HR exists in a lot of ways, and a 276 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,880 lot of employees are left tricked as a result of it. 277 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,960 You know, as far as the purpose of HR, it's clear what the 278 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,720 purpose is. It's just misrepresented as 279 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,760 something different. It's represented that they're 280 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,200 there to help resolve conflict. They're there to help employees 281 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,520 navigate their employment, to make sure that they're treated 282 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:02,360 fairly and to help resolve disputes that that people should 283 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:06,000 feel comfortable going to them and opening up and, and talking 284 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:07,600 about things that are bothering them. 285 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:10,160 And I, I, I could not disagree more with that. 286 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,560 I, I, if, if you go to HR and open up and you're causing, 287 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,800 there's a complaint, there's an issue, there's something they 288 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,960 need to look into. You're creating work for them. 289 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,880 You're creating friction. You're, you're, you're, you're, 290 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,640 you're creating a problem that they need to take action to, 291 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,120 especially if it's against senior leadership. 292 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,760 I mean, 9 times out of 10, they are going to side with 293 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,600 leadership every single time. And it may not appear on the 294 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,160 surface that way, but you know, 2-3 months down the road, all of 295 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,720 a sudden you're getting pipped out of the blue and you're being 296 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,360 let go and you're wondering what just happened. 297 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,320 And the only thing that's different than when you were 298 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,680 getting awards and performances 6 months ago is that you filed A 299 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,480 complaint with HR. So I mean, you know it with me. 300 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,480 I just think that, you know, HR has a role and I respect the 301 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,360 role. My biggest frustration is the 302 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,720 lack of transparency, the trickery that that people, the, 303 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,440 the younger employees, I was this way. 304 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,360 I went to HR my first couple of years out of work and that was 305 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,480 an issue. And I went in there, I talked to 306 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:11,000 them, I opened up, they were empathetic. 307 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,360 Nothing ever happened. It was as if I the conversation 308 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,800 never even took place. But I have a feeling that the 309 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:18,760 conversation did come back around to my manager and he knew 310 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,280 it took place. And this is what happens. 311 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,840 They work together. The HR business manager works in 312 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,600 cahoots with your manager to manage you out of the business 313 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:30,520 when the manager has decided they don't want you there 314 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,600 anymore. Rather than being honest and 315 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,560 transparent and coming to you and saying, hey, we appreciate 316 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,680 you, we value you, your employee at will, whether you are or not, 317 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,360 You know, we've made a decision that it's time to let you go. 318 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,560 But we respect and value and we're going to treat you 319 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:45,400 accordingly. We're going to give you the next 320 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,200 couple of months to go find a job while you're still an 321 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,160 employee because it's a lot easier finding a job when you 322 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,280 have a job and after and you can decide to work or not. 323 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,160 There's, you know, projects that you're working on, you want to 324 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,080 complete. There's deals that you're trying 325 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,520 to close that you want to get that Commission. 326 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,040 Go ahead. If you don't want to do 327 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,200 anything, that's fine too. If after that couple of months 328 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,480 you haven't found a job, we're going to give you a severance 329 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:06,960 package. It's going to be a fair and 330 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,960 reasonable one. And then you go off. 331 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,200 There's not an employee in the world that would not be forever 332 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,000 grateful to that organization for treating them that with that 333 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,880 respect and transparency and decency that they deserve. 334 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,560 Instead, they go on these campaigns. 335 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,040 I mean, I've talked to people who've worked at places for 32 336 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,800 years, 10 years, 20 years. And just in order to save a 337 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,960 little bit of money on severance to manage them out of the 338 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,240 business. So you don't pay unemployment 339 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:39,160 or, or, or, or, or a severance. They literally wipe away years 340 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,640 or decades of positive relations, work that they're 341 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,200 proud of, things that they reflect back positively on. 342 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,480 And that is all wiped away in a matter of a couple of months as 343 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,080 they manage you out of the business, wrongfully terminates 344 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,680 you to save you a little bit of money rather than being honest 345 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,160 and transparent with you. As an HR professional, I know 346 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,880 that managing HR for a workforce comes with its challenges, and 347 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,160 managing a global workforce even more so. 348 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,720 Using multiple tools for different countries and employee 349 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,240 types complicates everything. Costs go up, efficiency goes 350 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,240 down, you get the picture. Deal is here to change that. 351 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,400 That's DEEL. Whether you're an enterprise, 352 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,240 business, a small company, or anything in between, Deal 353 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,400 simplifies global team management, payroll, hiring and 354 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,920 more. 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That's D eel.com well there. 364 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,000 First of all, thank you for sharing your opinions on this. 365 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,800 It's, you know, I know that there are probably listeners who 366 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,160 are like really annoyed hearing your opinion, but that's OK. 367 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,800 I think it's really important that we hear from someone that 368 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:16,560 doesn't fully like, like believe in the things that we probably 369 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,440 believe in. So there are some things that I 370 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,920 agree with you on. There's some things that I also, 371 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,880 I think just fortunately, because of my experience, I 372 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,760 disagree with you on. Now, the things that I agree 373 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,560 with you on are that there needs to be transparency. 374 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,800 People would be forever grateful if they were clearer on where 375 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,840 they actually stood performance wise with an organization or if 376 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,880 there was an impending termination coming. 377 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:42,400 I know I would appreciate that and I know I think probably 378 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,320 everyone would appreciate that. So I totally, totally agree with 379 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,880 that. And I think most of where HR 380 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,280 gets it wrong and leaders in general get it wrong is when 381 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,720 they think that being transparent is going to bite 382 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:02,000 them in the end or in the moment, rather than seeing that 383 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,920 as a way to actually just be, you know, a decent human being 384 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,680 about what is eventually going to impact someone's, you know, 385 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,080 circumstances. Now obviously there's always 386 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,360 going to be a caveat to every situation, whether it's 387 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:18,560 something with confidentiality or whatever. 388 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,640 But in most cases, I do agree that transparency is where a lot 389 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,280 of these things are not even issues Because if someone's 390 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,360 like, hey, this isn't going to work out this like I don't even 391 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:34,560 want to put you on a PIP. I think you should just know 392 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,120 that this is not going to work and you should take this as 393 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,080 notice To me. I don't see any problem with 394 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,760 that. As an HR practitioner, I've done 395 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,320 that and I've suggested to leaders to do that with people 396 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:46,560 that they've had to manage out now. 397 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,080 How about why it's not going to work out? 398 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,760 Well, that I, to me, I think that's part of the conversation. 399 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,680 I'll give you an example. And this is also where I think 400 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,080 I'll share where on some levels I disagree with some of your 401 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,360 perspective. But this is really because of my 402 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,520 own experience. I can only speak about my own 403 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:09,440 experience, but I, I have had in the past employees who I really, 404 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,120 you know, considered friends and still consider friends whose 405 00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:17,000 performance was not good and it wasn't improving. 406 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,680 And there had been, you know, hey, we need more of this. 407 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:21,760 We need more of that. Like just general conversations 408 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,560 with the manager, right? And I've been an HR business 409 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,160 partner. That's kind of how I see my role 410 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,760 in general as an HR practitioner. 411 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:34,120 And I, I would sometimes step in and say, listen, as a friend, 412 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,040 you've got to know that, you know, unless something 413 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,600 dramatically changes with your performance, something is going 414 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,600 to dramatically change about your employment. 415 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,600 And you should know like, that's probably like, it's not going to 416 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,000 really change unless something 180 changes. 417 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:55,040 And I, I have, I can say with 100% honesty that, that I've had 418 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,280 those conversations before. And people generally are like, 419 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,880 thanks, I'm going to go and find another job or Oh crap, I'm 420 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,520 going to have to do a much better job because now I know 421 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,200 I'm about to get fired. So I have had the fortune of 422 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,120 having managers who have been supportive of me having those 423 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,920 types of conversations. And I think I've learned from HR 424 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,040 practitioners who do challenge some of the things that you have 425 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,960 seen. Now the places where I would say 426 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,920 I disagree are that I do think that HR is placed in in most 427 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,520 companies, although of course we know that there are companies 428 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,640 who don't ever do the right thing and are really the 429 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,760 building, the building blocks of these stigmas. 430 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,360 But I do think my role specifically and the roles of 431 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:41,840 many of my colleagues is to provide support through conflict 432 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,800 and to resolve problems. And that that doesn't, is not 433 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:51,560 seen as work created and rather it's an opportunity to help 434 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,240 build that person up and resolve conflict in the workplace. 435 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,120 I do believe that I can understand that there are 436 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:02,440 obviously these stigmas because there's a farce and there are 437 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,240 some people who don't, you know, who don't live up to what I 438 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,720 believe we should be doing in the workplace. 439 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:15,240 That said, I think anyone listening who is in HR, I hope 440 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,080 that they don't just do things because they think that's what 441 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,840 they're supposed to do. I hope that they take critical 442 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,200 thinking and reasoning to their jobs every single day and 443 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,360 challenge people if they want them to do the the wrong things. 444 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,600 But again, it's easy for me to say because that's the type of 445 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,840 person that I am if someone asked me to do the wrong thing. 446 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,640 And I'll give you one last story before I let you share what you 447 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:43,200 might have on your mind. I had an experience with one of 448 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,160 the worst leaders I've ever worked with years ago who 449 00:23:47,360 --> 00:23:53,280 specifically asked me to basically scrub the engagement 450 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,800 survey results for this like annual company survey and this 451 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,840 leader. This was probably like 8 years 452 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,560 ago already, so it's not someone that I luckily work with 453 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,000 anymore. And this particular leader was 454 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:12,480 like, don't ask those people there to take the survey because 455 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,040 they're going to respond poorly about me and the people that 456 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,120 already took the survey. Let's have them sign in as those 457 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:23,440 people and take the survey. And I was like, are you out of 458 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,520 your freaking mind? I'm not doing that. 459 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,760 And we literally, I kid you not, if this might be the first time 460 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,440 this is heard on the podcast, We got into a screaming match. 461 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,320 Like I was actually screaming and she was actually screaming 462 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,040 at me. I was like, you're not asking me 463 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,680 to do that. And by the way, I did, I did 464 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,080 report her and she eventually was not working for the company 465 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:46,320 anymore. This is probably the first time 466 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:47,400 I've shared this on this podcast. 467 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,880 I felt so strongly that she was asking me to do something not 468 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,240 only that was nefarious, obviously, but clearly wrong, 469 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,000 and also to me, something that totally took advantage of 470 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,640 employees. We should hear from everyone. 471 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,960 If this is a survey for the entire company, we've got to 472 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,720 hear from everyone. So that's an example of where 473 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,560 hopefully I'm not alone in saying, in being able to feel 474 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,480 confident and strong enough to say, no, you're wrong and I'm 475 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,800 not listening to you. But obviously not everyone is 476 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,760 able to do that. So I'll pause. 477 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,560 I shared a lot there and I know I saw you taking notes so I'm 478 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,720 sure you want to respond to some. 479 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,040 If I, if I can read them, I'll, I'll respond to them. 480 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,960 I mean, I, I, there's just so much to unpack here. 481 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,600 I mean, first of all, I mean, I, I appreciate you sharing your 482 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,280 experience. When I started this, I had no 483 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,560 expectation of what I was finding. 484 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,080 I didn't even start this myself. I just started posting about 485 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,520 topics on LinkedIn and the community forced me to start 486 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,200 this practice. They pleaded with me to start 487 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:56,240 this practice. So I mean, I mean, I don't know 488 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,680 where do I want to start here? Why is it when employees are let 489 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:04,000 go, the same people who were trusted, who respected, who are 490 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,520 valued, are instantly treated like a criminal that they're 491 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,200 literally that they're having, they're having their systems 492 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,360 shut down in the middle of the, of the, of the termination call. 493 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,600 They're having to complete it on a phone call. 494 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,160 They're walked out of the office, but yet 24 hours later 495 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,120 they were sharing confidential information. 496 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,400 I mean, it's just the employer is the one who creates this 497 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,920 toxic environment, this this combative stance that leaves 498 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,760 employees walking away feeling horrible and this is the last 499 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,960 thing that they want them to feel. 500 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,760 I mean. You know, I think with that 501 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,800 specifically, you know, this, you're probably not going to 502 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,720 like this response, but I do think that that is a reflection 503 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:53,200 of someone like one person creating this circumstance for 504 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,720 everyone else. Because like, let's take an 505 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,240 example of someone who tries to then download confidential 506 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,000 client information or something, right? 507 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,640 Like and then it becomes this, oh, we have to shut off systems 508 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,160 for everyone so they don't have access to those things. 509 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,320 I fully agree with you. It becomes this like. 510 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,880 So the reason why these things happen, the reason these things 511 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,200 happen is because the employees are being blindsided with these 512 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,240 terminations. And that's exactly what the 513 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,480 employer wants. If they were being treated with 514 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,080 respect and dignity as they as they have given throughout their 515 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,640 tenure, then there wouldn't be a concern about it. 516 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,840 So we basically saying that every employee who's ever worked 517 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,600 for you is a scumbag who's looking to steal stuff from you 518 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,720 and screw you over. And therefore, because one 519 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:35,880 person might have done it some other company, we're going to 520 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,680 treat every employee like this. I mean, aren't you saying the 521 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,520 same thing right now? That one bad company doesn't 522 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,200 mean that all companies are bad. Yeah, you're absolutely right. 523 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,640 You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, I think in a, a 524 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,120 world where competition, I mean, you, you have a sales background 525 00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:54,480 also, you know, like competition is ever, if you can have a leg 526 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,080 up on the competition, you can make a ton of money. 527 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,400 And that's whether you're an individual or a business. 528 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,800 And so I, I really fundamentally from a values perspective, I 529 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,400 agree with you. People have to be treated with 530 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,160 dignity and respect just as they came in, in the way that they 531 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,080 go. And I believe that the people 532 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,080 who are off boarding off of a company should be treated the 533 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,160 same way that they were treated when they were on boarding. 534 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,000 Even if they did something that earned them a termination, like 535 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,680 they harassed someone or they stole or whatever, you people 536 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,640 are still people and you have to treat them kindly. 537 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,320 The only. Thing I want to talk about is 538 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,840 this thing about performance, right? 539 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,840 So and, and, and about managers and about Pips. 540 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,360 You know, I think it's an obligation of the manager to be 541 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:39,720 communicating with their employees on a regular basis, 542 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,680 that the employee should never be blindsided as a concern with 543 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,320 performance, that there should never be a need for a PIP. 544 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,600 If the manager is doing their job throughout, the employee 545 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,600 should already know that they're not performing well and that 546 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,760 they likely should be moving on. But that's 99 out of 100 times. 547 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,240 That's never the case. The manager doesn't do their 548 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,600 job. They don't interact on a regular 549 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,600 basis. They just give commands and 550 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,400 nitpicks and complaints, not support and guidance. 551 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,360 And then when things start to go bad, then it's all on the 552 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,080 employee. It's never on the manager. 553 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,360 And now they're being given an unrealistic time period to 554 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,240 improve on it. So you mentioned, you mentioned 555 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,280 performance. Performance is, is almost in 556 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,800 every instance it's being positioned as subjective. 557 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,000 I mean, despite the fact that when there's, there's hard, fast 558 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,440 KPIs, most Pips are filled with subjective criteria that a 559 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,520 majority of them that the employees never even asked to 560 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,480 do. And it's intended to manage you 561 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640 out of the business so that if you can beat the, the, the real 562 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,880 number that they purposely make unachievable, maybe you got a 563 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,840 Bluebird and somehow got lucky. Well, now we can micromanage you 564 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,960 to death on these subjective things while you're on this PIP. 565 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,920 And then if you beat the real number, we can terminate you 566 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,600 because you didn't pass these micromanagement subjective items 567 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,480 that would have taken you away from actually getting the job 568 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,600 done in the 1st place. I mean, this is this. 569 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,440 I do know that I literally say the same thing to almost every 570 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,840 single person I speak to that comes to me on a PIP and I don't 571 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,800 even let them talk. I tell them this is what's going 572 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,760 on. They're like, Oh my God, how did 573 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,360 how did you literally just describe word for word what I'm 574 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,760 experiencing? It's the modus operandi. 575 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,720 Example. No, it's a great example 576 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,360 actually. For where HR leaders can be best 577 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,480 supporting employees because for example, when a leader, a 578 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,160 manager is not doing the right thing and they're like, OK, 579 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,920 well, you know, this person's not working out. 580 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,560 I just want to manage them out. That's when it's appropriate for 581 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,800 the HR partner to say no. How many conversations have you 582 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,360 had with this person? Do they know where they stand? 583 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,280 And if an, and this is really like for those listening who are 584 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,920 in HR, this is if you are not doing this with your managers, 585 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,800 you are part of the problem. You've got to have these 586 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,160 conversations with people so that people are not surprised. 587 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,800 And also with the pips. I totally agree. 588 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,000 If you're planning to manage someone out and they can do 589 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,720 nothing to improve their performance, just provide tell 590 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,120 them that provide them a very reasonable severance rather than 591 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,920 making them go through hoops to eventually not even show that 592 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,360 their performance has improved enough. 593 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,160 I'm. I'm like bursting at the seams 594 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:07,760 here. So do you. 595 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,040 So so you say provide them a severance. 596 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,360 Do you know what the new thing is that I just kind of came up, 597 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:14,680 became aware of in the last year? 598 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,760 I've now seen like 100 times it's they they come to you and 599 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,480 they tell you that, you know, we're not happy with your 600 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,720 performance. We're going to put you on this, 601 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,640 we're going to give you a choice. 602 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:30,800 You can choose to go on this unachievable Pip that you don't 603 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,480 deserve to be on, and we're purposely making it so that 604 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,320 there's not a chance that you can pass it. 605 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,760 If you ask your manager on the side of your mouth, they'll tell 606 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,400 you that you're gone already. Or you can choose. 607 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:44,400 See how I emphasize that word choose. 608 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,560 You can choose this severance, but you know what? 609 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,000 You chose it. So it's not a severance, it's 610 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,880 not a termination, it's a, a mutual resignation that you're 611 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,280 initiating, that you're initiating. 612 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,480 That is not your desire, not your intent, that you're being 613 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,000 pressured by your employer to make this choice between two 614 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,840 horrible outcomes. And you don't even and, and, and 615 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,840 you're blindsided by it. You don't even know where it's 616 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,560 coming from. And now you've been told you got 617 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,240 till the end of the day, you've got 24 hours to choose whether 618 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,880 you want this unachievable PIP that we've dressed up as 619 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,920 impossible to achieve, or you can accept a severance that we 620 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,920 intentionally mislead you that you'll now find out when you 621 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,320 apply for unemployment in a month that you're not eligible 622 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,760 for it. That's that's what they do 623 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,120 instead of if you don't want to be on the PIP. 624 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,040 Well, that's interesting. I first of all, as a, from a 625 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,920 selfish perspective, as like an individual taking the HR hat 626 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,760 off, if someone were ever to offer that to me, I'd be like 627 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,280 manage me out, manage me out so that you get, you're going to 628 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,600 still provide me a severance. I'm going to have 30 more days 629 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,040 of pay and eligible for unemployment. 630 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,840 But The thing is. Most employees don't know this 631 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:56,560 is happening. I literally get on the phone 632 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,040 with them and I can tell you that 19 out of 20 people that 633 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,320 are going through this have no idea what I just told them. 634 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,040 They they are shocked and disgusted that this company that 635 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,440 they worked for years for is using these underhanded tactics 636 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,680 to trick them into a resignation that they're dressing up as a 637 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,160 termination with a that's. Bad, that's bad. 638 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,080 I can't I you know, here's the thing. 639 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,560 If someone I could see trying to think like with some nuance here 640 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,040 and I guess using my own critical thinking advice, I 641 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:28,600 could see if someone is really actually not performing and 642 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,000 they've had discussions, let's say, and it's been overt and 643 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,280 transparent and the company is like, look, either you can, we 644 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,720 can manage you out over the next 30 days or we can just call it 645 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,520 now and we won't fight unemployment. 646 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,520 I could see that if a company is being reasonable because to me, 647 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,320 I think unemployment is a major concern for most people. 648 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,680 And a lot of people don't realize that if they resign, 649 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,240 they most of the time are not eligible for unemployment. 650 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,000 And this is where like if someone has a really good HR 651 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,440 partner, they can say, will I be eligible for an unemployment? 652 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,120 But what you're saying, and kind of what I'm saying too, is that 653 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,440 if people don't have that savviness about them or they 654 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,440 don't have someone being honest with them, they don't know. 655 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,719 They're being purposely misled. Literally. 656 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,000 When you hear severance, you think termination, unemployment, 657 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,560 they're believe me, if they actually said to you, well, you 658 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,040 can go on a PIP or you can choose to resign, Why aren't 659 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,000 they saying what it really is? They're purposely not to 660 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,719 intentionally trick people into screwing themselves over and not 661 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,440 having unemployment when they thought they were going to get 662 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,480 it. And they're they're purposely 663 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,120 giving them misinformation to make those decisions on. 664 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,159 I mean, the same it goes with. So I mean, it applies with so 665 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,320 many things. I mean, we've talked about this 666 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,400 before. I mean, employment agreements of 667 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,320 which you could be a person of color with a disability, you 668 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,199 know, in a protected class with a veteran. 669 00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,640 You know what with, with, with, with, with whatever it is. 670 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,440 And they make you sign an employment agreement that says 671 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,440 that you're an employee at will and can be terminated any time 672 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,720 for any reason. It's not true. 673 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,920 You know, the comp plans that they make you sign that they'll 674 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,240 literally threaten to withhold earn compensation. 675 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,400 That's illegal to do, previously earned that. 676 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,160 They'll threaten to withhold that if you don't sign this comp 677 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,000 plan. So they give you this perception 678 00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:26,320 that it's a legal binding contract that both parties will 679 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,560 abide by. But in the back of the contract, 680 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,040 it says that the employer can change the terms of this 681 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,320 agreement at any time with or without notice or consent. 682 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,720 So how is it a legal contract? It's not. 683 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:41,240 By definition, it's not. An attorney on here so we can 684 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,840 hash this out too. What I will say is that I think 685 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,120 it's like 48 states that have this at will. 49. 49 right. 686 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:53,960 So at will and, and I've said this to listeners too, the at 687 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,920 will law doesn't mean that you can just terminate anyone. 688 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,240 And to your point, this is really what you're saying that 689 00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:06,560 it's it you can't just let someone go, you know, there has 690 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,720 to be a justification when you terminate someone even in an at 691 00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:12,800 will state. Only only if you're in a 692 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,760 protected class. Well, most people are of a 693 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,120 protected class. Everyone has a, you know, a 694 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,480 gender every like if you have to prove discriminations, everyone 695 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:28,720 has some affiliation to any of the protected classes, right? 696 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:31,200 Someone could prove the difficulty is proving 697 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,920 discrimination. This is where people find 698 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,520 themselves in a bit of a pickle because someone, a company 699 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,440 that's doing nefarious things can say, oh, sorry, we're 700 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,920 terminating you. No notice, no care in the world, 701 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:44,840 no empathy. Fine. 702 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,960 Now they know those those companies doing the wrong thing 703 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,800 know that it's extremely difficult to prove 704 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,760 discrimination and wrongful termination unless there's an 705 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,680 abundance of clarity and written documentation, all of this stuff 706 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,920 that people can support their argument for. 707 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,120 But to your point, and what I'm trying to say here too, is that 708 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,120 just because you're in an AT will state doesn't mean that you 709 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,040 can just terminate anyone Willy nilly. 710 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,560 I don't believe that to be the case. 711 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:17,320 Now, obviously the law in those states allows and is kind of 712 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:23,600 like employer employers heavy because it allows the employer 713 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,960 to make business decisions more freely. 714 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,920 But again, there has to be, if you ask me from like an HR 715 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,760 perspective, there has to be a reason why you're terminating 716 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,640 someone. For example, if a company is 717 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,920 going through a rift, which is a reduction in force for those who 718 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,800 might not know, there has to be a process to determine who is 719 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,720 part of that rift. Either you're looking at numbers 720 00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:52,160 and performance, or you're looking at first, last in, first 721 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,720 out. Like there has to be some sort 722 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:56,120 of justification. It can't be this person's worked 723 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,400 for us the longest, this person's the oldest, this 724 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,080 person, like that's where you come into discrimination 725 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,480 territory. So that said, obviously I'm not 726 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:09,520 an attorney there. There are places within the laws 727 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,360 that people take advantage. And then there are places within 728 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,840 the laws of where people are abundantly conservative like we 729 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,600 see in California and New York, which are extremely litigious 730 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,600 States and states that tend to lean toward in for, I should 731 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,160 say, in favor of the employee. There are more protections in 732 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:31,520 those states for employees, but in other states like Florida, 733 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,680 Texas, and some states throughout the Midwest, like 734 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,960 those protections are not necessarily there. 735 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,240 So employees really unfortunately do have to be very 736 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:44,240 knowledgeable when they are engaging in any type of 737 00:38:44,240 --> 00:38:47,360 relationship with an employer to really know what their rights 738 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,280 are. I think we're kind of saying the 739 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,960 same thing, but unfortunately a lot of people don't know. 740 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,600 And I think that's where it's really great that you are 741 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,320 helping people as they are navigating these things in their 742 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,000 careers and in their experiences, which takes me to 743 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,360 probably one of my last questions for you because I've 744 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,680 probably made you totally lose your mind at this point on the. 745 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:11,720 Podcast Not at all. Not at. 746 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,320 All OK, good. When we think about layoffs and 747 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,480 the separation agreements and the severance and all that, when 748 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,920 you are advising people on how to navigate those things to make 749 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,640 the most of those moments and really squeeze the lemon for all 750 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,880 of its juice, what do you typically advise? 751 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,080 Because by the way, for anyone listening, if you ever do see a 752 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,040 separation agreement, you have time to review it. 753 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,400 Do not let anyone pressure you. And especially if you're over 754 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,720 the age of 40 in certain states, you have an extra long period of 755 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,280 time to review. But anyway, Dan, going back to 756 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,160 that question, what do you typically advise? 757 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,000 Yeah. So just, I just want to clarify 758 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,760 a few things. So, so when you're under 40, 759 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,000 they can give you as little time as they want to review the 760 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,400 agreement. They can pressure you to say, 761 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,440 hey, you have until the end of the day or else you don't have 762 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,240 it. Now, whether that's right to do 763 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:05,240 or not, they have no legal obligation to offer severance 764 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,440 when you're over 40. They have an obligation to give 765 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,600 you 21 days to review it and seven days to revoke it if 766 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,160 you're laid off by yourself. If you're terminated with just 767 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,880 one other person, it's considered a group layoff and 768 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,600 you're allowed 45 days to review it and seven days to revoke. 769 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,920 I think the caveat is California, I think under 40 770 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,480 they have a certain minimum. But anyway, yes, there there are 771 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,240 I think. We'll have to I, I, I don't 772 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,040 know. I've, I've worked with 100 773 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,320 people from California that had these issues and I, I, I, I have 774 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,920 not come across that. So you may be right. 775 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,920 There's a lot of there's a lot of one off flaws in, in 50 776 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,440 states all over the place. So San Francisco. 777 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,400 Versus California on the whole. But anyway, go ahead please. 778 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,000 Yeah, I, I think I just lost my train of thought that we, we'll 779 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,320 no worries, no. Worries you were clarifying the 780 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,840 point on time to review and then I had asked you what you. 781 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,880 Typically died, Yeah. Yeah. 782 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,280 I mean, you know, you, you want to basically be honest with 783 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,920 yourself and with the company, you know, assess what really 784 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,040 went on here. You know, I mean, companies do 785 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:07,680 have a right to let employees go. 786 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,880 There are plenty of employees that perform poorly and deserve 787 00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,800 to be let go. So be honest with yourself, you 788 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,360 know, and there's a lot of instances where companies are 789 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,400 acting poorly and targeting employees and terminating and 790 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:23,200 who don't deserve to be. And in those instances, stand up 791 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,600 for yourself. In general, when it comes to 792 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,800 severance, most employees either don't know that you can 793 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:33,400 negotiate it, don't know how to go about it, don't want to be 794 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,360 bothered with it, are too traumatized about what happened, 795 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,840 have already moved on to the next job and we don't want to 796 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:39,760 and want to leave it behind them. 797 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,880 So as a result, most employee employers do not offer what 798 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,560 they're willing to pay if you can put together a compelling 799 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,040 reason why it's in their best interest to offer more. 800 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,960 And what I'm talking about is basically finding some meat on 801 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,360 the bones, being able to articulate in a strong, 802 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,600 assertive way, you know, perhaps wrongdoing that took place that 803 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,920 led to your termination when it was a toxic work environment, 804 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,120 retaliation, targeting, compensation, theft, 805 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,240 discrimination. There's lots of different, what 806 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:10,520 I call my buckets of wrongdoing. And you can build out your, 807 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,080 your, your facts and details of what you endured and have that 808 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,720 ready to present to use as a motivation and leverage to 809 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:20,920 negotiate a better offer. The National Labor Relations 810 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,640 Board ruled in February of 2023 that non disparagement 811 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,360 agreements are no longer offered or allowed in severance 812 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,640 agreements. I probably looked at 1000 813 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,120 severance agreements in that time period. 814 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,880 I've seen one that proactively addressed it correctly and 815 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,800 clearly. I've seen, you know, probably 816 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,000 100 that, you know, kind of just referred to the change in law, 817 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,720 but didn't say what it was or where to find it. 818 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,320 You see what I'm saying? So employees, you know, if 819 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,040 you're not in a managerial position, you're not considered 820 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,480 a highly paid employee. You have the right to share your 821 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,120 truthful experience. You have no obligation to hide 822 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,240 wrongdoing by the employer. And if people realize that, they 823 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,720 people realize, think that if I sign my severance, they're 824 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,360 buying my silence. They're not. 825 00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:09,760 Employers need to make advocates of their employees, make fans of 826 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,560 their employees. There's no better word of mouth 827 00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:15,880 advertisement than a former employee saying what a great 828 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,520 company it is and how well they treated me when I left. 829 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,280 So true. You know, it's so easy to do. 830 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,360 It takes so little to do the right thing. 831 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,080 And you know, that stays with the employee, both good and bad. 832 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,680 And what you don't want to do is create a long line of enemies of 833 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,680 former employees that have a grind with you and want to see 834 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,520 you fail. So, so treat them with dignity 835 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:37,800 and respect. Take care of them. 836 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,680 Value the time that they put in and, and, and be honest and 837 00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,240 transparent. And if they're no good, then 838 00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,600 manage them properly throughout their tenure. 839 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,920 Don't blind side them. And then now put all the onus on 840 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,680 them to improve all of a sudden like that when they haven't been 841 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,920 doing a good job the whole time and you haven't communicated 842 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,120 with them. Right, right. 843 00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:00,560 So I agree. I agree 100%. 844 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,200 It costs nothing to be kind, as they say. 845 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,720 And I think you know, the the more honest and transparent we 846 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:11,800 can be and that we are, the better off everyone is in every 847 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,000 circumstance. And the the truest thing that 848 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,960 has been said is that the best, the best case scenario is that 849 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:23,200 you have people leaving a company feeling really warm 850 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:27,360 about their experience and being converted into fans of the 851 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,680 company who want to see the company prosper and the people 852 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,240 that make the company prosper continue to prosper too. 853 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:34,840 You don't. I agree 100%. 854 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,800 You don't want a line of enemies standing outside of your door at 855 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,080 all. So if anything goes listening, I 856 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,960 hope that you were able to have some of your deeply held beliefs 857 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,760 maybe turned on their heads a bit. 858 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,320 Maybe you felt a little challenged. 859 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,200 Maybe you felt like you were totally aligned with Dan. 860 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,200 Maybe you've actually had your own experiences where you've 861 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,520 dealt with difficult circumstances. 862 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:56,560 Dan, do you want to say anything on? 863 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,400 That I have consulted with probably close to a dozen HR 864 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,840 professionals. Chief people, Officers V PS DEI 865 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,600 folks. I'm telling you that they it 866 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,280 happens to everybody. Presidents of companies, Chief, 867 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,640 Chief revenue officers V PS HR people. 868 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,640 I will tell you one thing. Every person I've worked with in 869 00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:20,600 HR has had a highly successful outcome. 870 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,400 They know where all the bodies are buried, they know all the 871 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,560 underhanded tactics that employers use, and they use this 872 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,080 information and their argument back to get a better offer. 873 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,640 Wow. Well, they're lucky to have you 874 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,120 supporting them. But I had a feeling you were 875 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,480 going to mention this because that I've, I personally know 876 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,320 people who have been burned who are in HR and have been burned 877 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,080 by companies that don't do the right thing consistently. 878 00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,520 So I think, as I said at the top of our recording, I think it's a 879 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,760 wonderful thing when people have mentors and advocates and people 880 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,520 on their side, whether in or outside of the business. 881 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:58,360 So thank you for supporting employees when maybe some of our 882 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,560 colleagues are not doing that to begin with. 883 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,480 So with that, Dan, if someone wants to learn more about you or 884 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,120 have a conversation or maybe they need your support, where 885 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,880 can they find you and connect? Yeah, I mean, I, I live every 886 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,880 day, all day long. And LinkedIn in my DM box, you 887 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,840 know, I've got a website, you know, you can, I've got a type 888 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,600 form that people fill out that they can seek help or assistance 889 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,480 across 8 different practice areas. 890 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,440 You know you'll, you'll go to a specific type form for that 891 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:30,920 specific practice area. My website is dangoodmanea.com. 892 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,880 You can find me on LinkedIn. Dan Goodman, Employment Advisory 893 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,800 is also on LinkedIn. Yeah, I, I, I, I post twice 894 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,480 every day about topics that people need to hear about. 895 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,600 If you're, if you have, if you're an employee. 896 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,840 I post every day at 8:23 and 6:53 at night. 897 00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,840 And yeah, I'm not going anywhere. 898 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,760 I'm having the time of my life. It's the most impactful work of 899 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,320 my life. And every day is a joy. 900 00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,160 And I'm helping people every day. 901 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,440 And I, I, I feel and see the impact every day. 902 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,680 So that's. Amazing. 903 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,760 That's amazing. Well, congratulations on all of 904 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,080 your success and thank you for bringing some really interesting 905 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,840 discussion to the podcast. Really appreciate your time. 906 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,280 And we'll have all of those links in the show notes for 907 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,880 everyone to easily click click as well. 908 00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,800 Thank you so much, Dan. Thank you for having me, it was 909 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,920 a great time. Hey, just before you go, don't 910 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,680 forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the first to 911 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,440 hear when an episode drops each week and maybe leave a five star 912 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,040 review and a comment about how much you loved this episode. 913 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,840 Plus, if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this 914 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:34,480 episode, make sure you share it with them. 915 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,440 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.