Welcome back to the Bringing the human Back to Human resources
podcast, The Replay series. I'm your host, Tracy Turn off,
and I'm thrilled to have you join us once again as we journey
through the episodes that have top charts around the world.
In this podcast series, we're revisiting some of our most
insightful, thought provoking, and transformative conversations
with industry experts, thought leaders, and practitioners.
These episodes. Have made waves, sparking
meaningful conversation and inspiring positive change
throughout human resources. Whether you're a dedicated
listener who's been with us from the start or you're just tuning
in for the first time, the Replay series offers a chance to
dive deep into the core principles that guide our
exploration into HR practices. So, get ready to rediscover the
discussions that continue to shape the future of HR.
Without further ado, let's step back in time and immerse
ourselves into the podcast's top charted episodes.
Let the replay begin. Hi everyone, welcome back to the
Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast.
Thank you so much for being here for another week and another
episode. Thank you also for listening in
general. And this is we are in the midst
of the layoff series and this is our third episode in the layoff
series. And I am recording after a
conversation that I had for our 4th and final episode of the
layoff series, which is for next week.
And that episode is amazing. And it's with a guest named Dan
Goodman. So you'll definitely want to
make sure that you listen to that episode because he's he, he
brings the heat for us everybody.
I mean, he is the self-proclaimed counter HR
counter to HR. And so there are a lot of
moments in our discussion and in the recording where we don't
just we don't agree and and I share with him where I disagree
with him on his perspective and in terms of where HR sits in a
business. So I'm not going to tease the
episode too much because it is in a week and you can just
listen then. But it's going to be a great
episode. I already know.
But all of that to say is that for this week's episode within
the layoff series, I want to talk a little bit about what
happens if you or someone you know, is navigating and really
the kind of like managing through a layoff or a loss of
their job themselves or yourself.
And so, you know, we talked a lot with Jenna Dune a couple
episodes ago and then I shared last week a little bit on, you
know, what it's like after a layoff and what happens with
survivor's guilt and what happens after, you know, someone
is laid off and what the company experience is like.
So this week we're going to talk about the employee experience.
So first and foremost, once you or someone you know is once
someone, let's just say someone is laid off, there is that
initial shock and anger and upset, right?
And disbelief that sets in. Now, I will say candidly, I've
never been fired. I've never been laid off.
However, according to an article that I'm going to share in the
show notes, over 40%, which is a statistic that was originally
reported on by Forbes, by the way, over 40% of Americans have
been laid off at least once in their career.
So that's a very significant percentage of people.
So even if we think about the number of people listening, many
of you would have experienced this at some point in your
careers. And so of course, that initial
impact is there. And something that you'll hear
from Dan next week is this notion of really standing up for
yourself and knowing if or when you're being taken advantage of.
Now, obviously, this is an HR podcast.
And obviously, also obviously I advocate for HR practitioners to
be sound professionals and to be supportive and to be on the
right side of business operations, right?
And to really challenge if something is not being done
correctly and to really do the right thing, just fundamentally,
that doesn't mean that the wrong thing isn't ever done.
Now, of course, sometimes there are HR practitioners who do the
wrong thing. And of course, sometimes there
are HR practitioners who are asked to do something that is
fundamentally the wrong thing to do.
So in the event that that is the circumstance, sometimes someone
will have to stick up for themselves.
They're going to whistleblow potentially if there's, you
know, other thing, if there are other things going on.
And so if you or someone you know is impacted by the loss of
a job or a layoff, there should be, you know, some reflection on
that experience in the job. And if there is shock because it
wasn't expected, then also that potentially means that there
wasn't a whole lot of transparency throughout the
experience and throughout the employment experience.
Now, of course, immediately some of the reasonable concerns that
come up are what happens to my healthcare and my benefits?
What happens with my final pay? What happens with things that I
might have in an office, right? What happens with my equipment?
What happened like can I say bye to everyone, especially if
that's if it's like a same day termination.
There are questions about severance and separation
agreements and employment verification and new jobs and
references. Like there's so much that comes
up within that first, you know, moment when someone is notified
of the end of their employment. And all of those things are
totally reasonable. And hopefully, if you listen to
last week's episode, when you think about your preparation,
you do have all of those answers ready for the person.
If you are the person on the receiving end of a layoff
conversation, then these are all questions that you should ask.
And a lot of questions that come up in, as we know, if you've
ever had to terminate someone is why am I being terminated?
Did I do something wrong? How long is my severance?
How long is my healthcare going to last?
Like all of those questions and all those concerns come up.
And again, ideally, if something is performance related, people
already see it coming because you've been transparent and
honest and forthcoming and the manager has done the same.
But in the event that that doesn't happen, which hopefully
is seldom, all of those questions need to be answered by
the person delivering this news. And you know, I think when we
think about the steps that follow answers to those
questions, if someone is laid off, they absolutely must review
their separation agreement. Now, with separation agreements,
depending on someone's age and where they live, the time to
review could look a little bit different.
And Dan and I talked about this, so you'll hear this a little
bit, actually quite a bit, I should say, in next week's
episode as well. But when you're over the age of
40, you do have three weeks minimum to review in in most
places, Not most places. Everywhere, except some places
provide you longer amounts of time depending.
Well, sometimes that's company policy.
But also if it's a group termination, this is really what
I'm trying to say. It's a group termination or a
mass layoff. Then you have a longer period of
time. It's like 40-5 days, I think.
But if it's an individual termination, you don't
necessarily get that amount of time.
But certainly, this is where you'll hear from Dan next week
that advocating for yourself and standing up for yourself is #1
if you need more time to review, if you want a greater severance
package, those are things you should ask for and negotiate.
Certainly when someone is being laid off, they would file for
unemployment in the United States at least.
I can't really speak to other parts of the world because I
don't have that exact experience, but maybe it's
somewhat similar. Certainly you can ask, and this
is where I highly and strongly suggest this.
You ask for healthcare continuation before needing to
pay for COBRA as an individual. COBRA is the continuation of
benefits and basically it takes you.
You would be able to continue your healthcare, your health
benefits, but it would be 100% employee paid in many cases.
In most cases, employees who are laid off can negotiate the
continuation of the employer paid portion of healthcare
benefits. Certainly if you are do a bonus
and things like that, you can negotiate the timing around
that. You can negotiate pretty much
everything within a separation agreement and severance package.
So again, this is something that we'll dive into in the episode
with Dan, so I won't do too much on that subject, but to me,
everything is negotiable. And then finally, you probably
also want to make sure that you think about how or what approach
you're going to take for the next job.
Now, it's standard practice. I would say that other company
that companies in general won't, won't share or disclose the
reason for someone's end of employment.
So if you were to go to a new company and they do an
employment verification, they ask your last company, what was
the end? Like, why did this person leave?
Typically, companies won't disclose that information.
I would suggest that you confirm that at the time of a layoff if
you are impacted or if you have been impacted by a layoff
before. Maybe this is something that
you've experienced. But I would say at least in my
experience, 99% of the time companies don't even want to
touch that because a former employee could claim that they
were the reason they didn't get a, you know, new employment.
So typically companies just won't even go there and they'll
just say, you know, that's their end date.
And we're not able to disclose the reasons behind that.
So, you know, I think the biggest thing that tends to come
up when someone's laid off is like, what's next?
And I think it's totally reasonable.
And we heard from Jenna Dune earlier in this layoff Series A
couple weeks ago that the off placement or off boarding of an
employee when they are experiencing A layoff or they
are terminated is a really helpful benefit.
I guess we can call it perk or part of the experience for
people who are experiencing A layoff because then they have
that those out placement services that support them as
they navigate, you know, the kind of this like new normal and
something. I, I work with a lot of clients
on their resumes, of course, and their Linkedins and interviews
and career coaching and all that jazz.
And a lot of the times I'm meeting with people who were
unfortunately laid off or they're not happy with their
experience and they feel like this sense of desperation to
find something new. That is generally the worst time
to start looking at your resume and your interview skills.
Like you really want to work with someone like me or work
with someone else before a circumstance like this so that
you are just prepared and ready to go.
Like I should probably take my own advice.
I haven't looked at my resume in years, but I could, right?
Like even though I have no reason to leave, I'm not looking
to leave. I don't believe I'm going to be
fired at any point. How come would it's always good
to have those documents like kind of fresh and updated maybe
every six months or so, at least once a year?
And so if you are hearing this message and you feel the same as
me, you're not looking to go anywhere, but you also don't and
you also don't think that you're going to be fired.
Like this is probably a good reminder to look at your resume.
And if you need help with that, you can always come to me too.
In general, it's probably just a good idea to freshen those
things up. Same with LinkedIn, because also
you just never know. If someone you know looks at
your LinkedIn and they want to see what you're up to.
And if it's outdated, that doesn't really help you
potentially advance if that's what you're looking for.
And finally, not finally, but another thing that is a good
consideration to have and hopefully none of you are ever
laid off. But if 40% of Americans
experience this, then almost 50% of us are going to have this
situation at some point or feel this impact at some point.
Definitely make sure you gather all of the things that you need,
like your performance reviews, if there's anything that you've
worked on that's your intellectual property.
Although the caveat there is that sometimes we sign offer
letters that also absolve us of claiming ownership on things
that we've created. So make sure you're really clear
on that because you do not want to encroach on a territory where
you have then taken things that actually belong to a company and
then they sue you. You don't want that.
So make sure that if you know, if you feel it's your
intellectual property, that you don't have an intellectual
property agreement that you've signed.
Because if you do have something that you've signed around
intellectual property, chances are that's not actually your
intellectual property anymore. So just a word to the wise, keep
that in mind. And then also, you know, think
about who you might want to stay in contact with, like people who
you have good relationships with, maybe even your manager.
You can always ask for reference.
Not every company offers or provides references because
sometimes it's like a a conflict And I found, and I found it's
like 5050 in the companies I've worked for.
Some companies when they're more established or like, Nope, we
don't offer any professional references.
And some companies just simply do not care.
And you can provide a professional reference or
receive a professional reference, but make sure you
ask. And then of course, anything
that you need related to your termination, you would want
also. Now, I realize that many of you
are in HR and you already know the documents that you need when
it comes to, you know, leaving a company.
But still, sometimes I think in the heat of the moment and as
things are going on, all of that goes out the window because now
you're not the one delivering the message, you're the one
receiving it. And then finally, in terms of
preparation, you also want to make sure that you know if there
is any financial assistance that's provided, whether it's an
emergency fund, benefits, cash out options, expense reductions,
again coming back to healthcare. All of that.
And there actually is a link to an article from NerdWallet that
will link in the show notes. And it's about like different
steps that you can take to get support financially if that
happens. So I'll provide that.
And then, you know, finally, I think we've talked about this
before on the podcast that our jobs often are a part of our
identities. Like I know I conflate my
identity with my career all the time.
And I'm honestly OK with that. I have a podcast and everything
that I do is HR Tracy. Like that's just kind of how I
live and that's OK with me. But I think when layoffs happen,
it's extremely deflating and it has an impact on our ego and our
pride and our sense of self. And so I realize it's easy for
me to say, but I would really recommend that you try not to
have those feelings. And again, very easy to say, but
when we have those feelings, we are conflating our identities
with our careers. When actually if we're working
for someone else, this is, I think the exception is if you
have your own business, but you're not going to lay yourself
off. But in the event that you work
for someone else and you don't have your own business, you're
an employee. Like your career can be totally
separate from the place in which you work.
Like, you can be an HR professional regardless of
whether you work at Chase, Target, or a mom and pop
boutique, right? The key there is that you take
your career and all the things with you and the person or the
company that you work. For is.
Just where you, you know, kind of hang your hat.
And so your, your ability to do a good job as a practitioner is
not solely based on whether you're employed or not.
But again, easy for me to say, I realize that.
But I certainly encourage any of you who maybe are experiencing
this now or who unfortunately may experience this in the
future, that you take the time to really feel and process the
layoff, but disallow the completion of that layoff being
a reflection of you and your ability to be successful.
Of course, even in performance related terminations, there's
still I think a real reason to feel that because, and something
that Dan mentions on the podcast next week is this like sense of
subjectivity around terminations, especially
performance related ones. And I don't totally disagree.
I think, you know, performance is something different to
everyone and good performance and bad performance is sometimes
subjective unless you know it's specific to a very specific
goal. So all that to say is be
positive. There's a job out there for
everyone. I believe every pot has its lid
and it's just a matter of finding that right place.
And you know, just as we learned when we were kids, when you get
knocked down, you just have to get right back up and keep
going. So I hope that this is like an
episode that no one ever needs to really like leverage or use
or rely on. But I also hope that if you are
in this situation or you find yourself in the situation that
it's helpful in some way to you. So all of the articles that I
referenced and all of the links that I kind of talked about will
be in the show notes. So you can kind of do your own
digging and read a little bit more.
But, you know, sometimes it can be really difficult if we are
the ones like the practitioners kind of executing or driving
forward either a goal or a termination or like something
for the business and then it's kind of turned on us and then
we're the ones experiencing it. That's probably very difficult.
And I hope I never have to experience that too.
But if Forbes is right and 40% of Americans experience a layoff
and throughout their careers, like that's tough, then that
might be something that we all have to, you know, one day be
prepared for. So with that, I hope you all
have a wonderful rest of your week.
Thank you again for listening to this episode.
And don't forget, next week is the last episode of the layoff
series with Dan Goodman, and I'm really excited for you to hear
all of his thoughts. Thank you so much.
Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to this show
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and I'll see you next week.