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Welcome back to the Bringing the
human Back to Human resources 

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podcast, The Replay series. 
I'm your host, Tracy Turn off, 

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and I'm thrilled to have you 
join us once again as we journey

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through the episodes that have 
top charts around the world. 

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In this podcast series, we're 
revisiting some of our most 

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insightful, thought provoking, 
and transformative conversations

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with industry experts, thought 
leaders, and practitioners. 

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These episodes. 
Have made waves, sparking 

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meaningful conversation and 
inspiring positive change 

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throughout human resources. 
Whether you're a dedicated 

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listener who's been with us from
the start or you're just tuning 

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in for the first time, the 
Replay series offers a chance to

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dive deep into the core 
principles that guide our 

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exploration into HR practices. 
So, get ready to rediscover the 

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discussions that continue to 
shape the future of HR. 

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Without further ado, let's step 
back in time and immerse 

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ourselves into the podcast's top
charted episodes. 

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Let the replay begin. 
Hi everyone, welcome back to the

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Bringing the Human Back to Human
Resources podcast. 

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Thank you so much for being here
for another week and another 

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episode. 
Thank you also for listening in 

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general. 
And this is we are in the midst 

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of the layoff series and this is
our third episode in the layoff 

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series. 
And I am recording after a 

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conversation that I had for our 
4th and final episode of the 

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layoff series, which is for next
week. 

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And that episode is amazing. 
And it's with a guest named Dan 

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Goodman. 
So you'll definitely want to 

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make sure that you listen to 
that episode because he's he, he

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brings the heat for us 
everybody. 

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I mean, he is the 
self-proclaimed counter HR 

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counter to HR. 
And so there are a lot of 

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moments in our discussion and in
the recording where we don't 

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just we don't agree and and I 
share with him where I disagree 

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with him on his perspective and 
in terms of where HR sits in a 

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business. 
So I'm not going to tease the 

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episode too much because it is 
in a week and you can just 

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listen then. 
But it's going to be a great 

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episode. 
I already know. 

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But all of that to say is that 
for this week's episode within 

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the layoff series, I want to 
talk a little bit about what 

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happens if you or someone you 
know, is navigating and really 

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the kind of like managing 
through a layoff or a loss of 

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their job themselves or 
yourself. 

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And so, you know, we talked a 
lot with Jenna Dune a couple 

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episodes ago and then I shared 
last week a little bit on, you 

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know, what it's like after a 
layoff and what happens with 

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survivor's guilt and what 
happens after, you know, someone

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is laid off and what the company
experience is like. 

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So this week we're going to talk
about the employee experience. 

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So first and foremost, once you 
or someone you know is once 

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someone, let's just say someone 
is laid off, there is that 

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initial shock and anger and 
upset, right? 

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And disbelief that sets in. 
Now, I will say candidly, I've 

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never been fired. 
I've never been laid off. 

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However, according to an article
that I'm going to share in the 

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show notes, over 40%, which is a
statistic that was originally 

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reported on by Forbes, by the 
way, over 40% of Americans have 

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been laid off at least once in 
their career. 

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So that's a very significant 
percentage of people. 

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So even if we think about the 
number of people listening, many

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of you would have experienced 
this at some point in your 

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careers. 
And so of course, that initial 

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impact is there. 
And something that you'll hear 

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from Dan next week is this 
notion of really standing up for

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yourself and knowing if or when 
you're being taken advantage of.

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Now, obviously, this is an HR 
podcast. 

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And obviously, also obviously I 
advocate for HR practitioners to

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be sound professionals and to be
supportive and to be on the 

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right side of business 
operations, right? 

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And to really challenge if 
something is not being done 

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correctly and to really do the 
right thing, just fundamentally,

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that doesn't mean that the wrong
thing isn't ever done. 

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Now, of course, sometimes there 
are HR practitioners who do the 

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wrong thing. 
And of course, sometimes there 

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are HR practitioners who are 
asked to do something that is 

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fundamentally the wrong thing to
do. 

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So in the event that that is the
circumstance, sometimes someone 

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will have to stick up for 
themselves. 

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They're going to whistleblow 
potentially if there's, you 

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know, other thing, if there are 
other things going on. 

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And so if you or someone you 
know is impacted by the loss of 

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a job or a layoff, there should 
be, you know, some reflection on

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that experience in the job. 
And if there is shock because it

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wasn't expected, then also that 
potentially means that there 

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wasn't a whole lot of 
transparency throughout the 

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experience and throughout the 
employment experience. 

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Now, of course, immediately some
of the reasonable concerns that 

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come up are what happens to my 
healthcare and my benefits? 

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What happens with my final pay? 
What happens with things that I 

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might have in an office, right? 
What happens with my equipment? 

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What happened like can I say bye
to everyone, especially if 

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that's if it's like a same day 
termination. 

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There are questions about 
severance and separation 

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agreements and employment 
verification and new jobs and 

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references. 
Like there's so much that comes 

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up within that first, you know, 
moment when someone is notified 

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of the end of their employment. 
And all of those things are 

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totally reasonable. 
And hopefully, if you listen to 

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last week's episode, when you 
think about your preparation, 

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you do have all of those answers
ready for the person. 

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If you are the person on the 
receiving end of a layoff 

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conversation, then these are all
questions that you should ask. 

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And a lot of questions that come
up in, as we know, if you've 

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ever had to terminate someone is
why am I being terminated? 

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Did I do something wrong? 
How long is my severance? 

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How long is my healthcare going 
to last? 

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Like all of those questions and 
all those concerns come up. 

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And again, ideally, if something
is performance related, people 

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already see it coming because 
you've been transparent and 

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honest and forthcoming and the 
manager has done the same. 

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But in the event that that 
doesn't happen, which hopefully 

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is seldom, all of those 
questions need to be answered by

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the person delivering this news.
And you know, I think when we 

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think about the steps that 
follow answers to those 

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questions, if someone is laid 
off, they absolutely must review

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their separation agreement. 
Now, with separation agreements,

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depending on someone's age and 
where they live, the time to 

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review could look a little bit 
different. 

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And Dan and I talked about this,
so you'll hear this a little 

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bit, actually quite a bit, I 
should say, in next week's 

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episode as well. 
But when you're over the age of 

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40, you do have three weeks 
minimum to review in in most 

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places, Not most places. 
Everywhere, except some places 

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provide you longer amounts of 
time depending. 

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Well, sometimes that's company 
policy. 

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But also if it's a group 
termination, this is really what

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I'm trying to say. 
It's a group termination or a 

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mass layoff. 
Then you have a longer period of

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time. 
It's like 40-5 days, I think. 

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But if it's an individual 
termination, you don't 

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necessarily get that amount of 
time. 

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But certainly, this is where 
you'll hear from Dan next week 

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that advocating for yourself and
standing up for yourself is #1 

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if you need more time to review,
if you want a greater severance 

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package, those are things you 
should ask for and negotiate. 

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Certainly when someone is being 
laid off, they would file for 

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unemployment in the United 
States at least. 

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I can't really speak to other 
parts of the world because I 

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don't have that exact 
experience, but maybe it's 

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somewhat similar. 
Certainly you can ask, and this 

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is where I highly and strongly 
suggest this. 

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You ask for healthcare 
continuation before needing to 

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pay for COBRA as an individual. 
COBRA is the continuation of 

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benefits and basically it takes 
you. 

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You would be able to continue 
your healthcare, your health 

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benefits, but it would be 100% 
employee paid in many cases. 

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In most cases, employees who are
laid off can negotiate the 

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continuation of the employer 
paid portion of healthcare 

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benefits. 
Certainly if you are do a bonus 

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and things like that, you can 
negotiate the timing around 

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that. 
You can negotiate pretty much 

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everything within a separation 
agreement and severance package.

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So again, this is something that
we'll dive into in the episode 

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with Dan, so I won't do too much
on that subject, but to me, 

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everything is negotiable. 
And then finally, you probably 

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also want to make sure that you 
think about how or what approach

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you're going to take for the 
next job. 

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Now, it's standard practice. 
I would say that other company 

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that companies in general won't,
won't share or disclose the 

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reason for someone's end of 
employment. 

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So if you were to go to a new 
company and they do an 

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employment verification, they 
ask your last company, what was 

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the end? 
Like, why did this person leave?

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Typically, companies won't 
disclose that information. 

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I would suggest that you confirm
that at the time of a layoff if 

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you are impacted or if you have 
been impacted by a layoff 

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before. 
Maybe this is something that 

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you've experienced. 
But I would say at least in my 

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experience, 99% of the time 
companies don't even want to 

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touch that because a former 
employee could claim that they 

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were the reason they didn't get 
a, you know, new employment. 

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So typically companies just 
won't even go there and they'll 

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just say, you know, that's their
end date. 

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And we're not able to disclose 
the reasons behind that. 

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So, you know, I think the 
biggest thing that tends to come

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up when someone's laid off is 
like, what's next? 

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And I think it's totally 
reasonable. 

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And we heard from Jenna Dune 
earlier in this layoff Series A 

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couple weeks ago that the off 
placement or off boarding of an 

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employee when they are 
experiencing A layoff or they 

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are terminated is a really 
helpful benefit. 

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I guess we can call it perk or 
part of the experience for 

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people who are experiencing A 
layoff because then they have 

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that those out placement 
services that support them as 

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they navigate, you know, the 
kind of this like new normal and

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something. 
I, I work with a lot of clients 

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on their resumes, of course, and
their Linkedins and interviews 

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and career coaching and all that
jazz. 

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And a lot of the times I'm 
meeting with people who were 

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unfortunately laid off or 
they're not happy with their 

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experience and they feel like 
this sense of desperation to 

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find something new. 
That is generally the worst time

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to start looking at your resume 
and your interview skills. 

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Like you really want to work 
with someone like me or work 

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with someone else before a 
circumstance like this so that 

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you are just prepared and ready 
to go. 

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Like I should probably take my 
own advice. 

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I haven't looked at my resume in
years, but I could, right? 

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Like even though I have no 
reason to leave, I'm not looking

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to leave. 
I don't believe I'm going to be 

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fired at any point. 
How come would it's always good 

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to have those documents like 
kind of fresh and updated maybe 

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every six months or so, at least
once a year? 

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And so if you are hearing this 
message and you feel the same as

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me, you're not looking to go 
anywhere, but you also don't and

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you also don't think that you're
going to be fired. 

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Like this is probably a good 
reminder to look at your resume.

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And if you need help with that, 
you can always come to me too. 

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In general, it's probably just a
good idea to freshen those 

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things up. 
Same with LinkedIn, because also

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you just never know. 
If someone you know looks at 

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your LinkedIn and they want to 
see what you're up to. 

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And if it's outdated, that 
doesn't really help you 

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potentially advance if that's 
what you're looking for. 

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And finally, not finally, but 
another thing that is a good 

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consideration to have and 
hopefully none of you are ever 

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laid off. 
But if 40% of Americans 

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experience this, then almost 50%
of us are going to have this 

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situation at some point or feel 
this impact at some point. 

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Definitely make sure you gather 
all of the things that you need,

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like your performance reviews, 
if there's anything that you've 

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worked on that's your 
intellectual property. 

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00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:10,440
Although the caveat there is 
that sometimes we sign offer 

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letters that also absolve us of 
claiming ownership on things 

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that we've created. 
So make sure you're really clear

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on that because you do not want 
to encroach on a territory where

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you have then taken things that 
actually belong to a company and

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then they sue you. 
You don't want that. 

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So make sure that if you know, 
if you feel it's your 

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intellectual property, that you 
don't have an intellectual 

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property agreement that you've 
signed. 

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Because if you do have something
that you've signed around 

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intellectual property, chances 
are that's not actually your 

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intellectual property anymore. 
So just a word to the wise, keep

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that in mind. 
And then also, you know, think 

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about who you might want to stay
in contact with, like people who

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you have good relationships 
with, maybe even your manager. 

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You can always ask for 
reference. 

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Not every company offers or 
provides references because 

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sometimes it's like a a conflict
And I found, and I found it's 

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like 5050 in the companies I've 
worked for. 

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Some companies when they're more
established or like, Nope, we 

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don't offer any professional 
references. 

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And some companies just simply 
do not care. 

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And you can provide a 
professional reference or 

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receive a professional 
reference, but make sure you 

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ask. 
And then of course, anything 

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that you need related to your 
termination, you would want 

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also. 
Now, I realize that many of you 

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are in HR and you already know 
the documents that you need when

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it comes to, you know, leaving a
company. 

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But still, sometimes I think in 
the heat of the moment and as 

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things are going on, all of that
goes out the window because now 

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you're not the one delivering 
the message, you're the one 

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receiving it. 
And then finally, in terms of 

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preparation, you also want to 
make sure that you know if there

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is any financial assistance 
that's provided, whether it's an

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emergency fund, benefits, cash 
out options, expense reductions,

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again coming back to healthcare.
All of that. 

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And there actually is a link to 
an article from NerdWallet that 

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will link in the show notes. 
And it's about like different 

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steps that you can take to get 
support financially if that 

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happens. 
So I'll provide that. 

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And then, you know, finally, I 
think we've talked about this 

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before on the podcast that our 
jobs often are a part of our 

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identities. 
Like I know I conflate my 

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identity with my career all the 
time. 

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And I'm honestly OK with that. 
I have a podcast and everything 

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that I do is HR Tracy. 
Like that's just kind of how I 

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live and that's OK with me. 
But I think when layoffs happen,

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it's extremely deflating and it 
has an impact on our ego and our

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pride and our sense of self. 
And so I realize it's easy for 

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me to say, but I would really 
recommend that you try not to 

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have those feelings. 
And again, very easy to say, but

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when we have those feelings, we 
are conflating our identities 

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with our careers. 
When actually if we're working 

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for someone else, this is, I 
think the exception is if you 

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have your own business, but 
you're not going to lay yourself

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off. 
But in the event that you work 

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for someone else and you don't 
have your own business, you're 

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00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,520
an employee. 
Like your career can be totally 

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00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,920
separate from the place in which
you work. 

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00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,520
Like, you can be an HR 
professional regardless of 

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00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,600
whether you work at Chase, 
Target, or a mom and pop 

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00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,200
boutique, right? 
The key there is that you take 

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00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,680
your career and all the things 
with you and the person or the 

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00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,760
company that you work. 
For is. 

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00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,880
Just where you, you know, kind 
of hang your hat. 

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00:16:54,280 --> 00:17:00,080
And so your, your ability to do 
a good job as a practitioner is 

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00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,960
not solely based on whether 
you're employed or not. 

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00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,920
But again, easy for me to say, I
realize that. 

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00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,280
But I certainly encourage any of
you who maybe are experiencing 

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00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,760
this now or who unfortunately 
may experience this in the 

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00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:19,079
future, that you take the time 
to really feel and process the 

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00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:26,040
layoff, but disallow the 
completion of that layoff being 

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00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:32,280
a reflection of you and your 
ability to be successful. 

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00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:36,880
Of course, even in performance 
related terminations, there's 

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00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,320
still I think a real reason to 
feel that because, and something

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00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,680
that Dan mentions on the podcast
next week is this like sense of 

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00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,920
subjectivity around 
terminations, especially 

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00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,640
performance related ones. 
And I don't totally disagree. 

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00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,080
I think, you know, performance 
is something different to 

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00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,600
everyone and good performance 
and bad performance is sometimes

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00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:01,680
subjective unless you know it's 
specific to a very specific 

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00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,080
goal. 
So all that to say is be 

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00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,000
positive. 
There's a job out there for 

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00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,960
everyone. 
I believe every pot has its lid 

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00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,600
and it's just a matter of 
finding that right place. 

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00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,440
And you know, just as we learned
when we were kids, when you get 

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00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,320
knocked down, you just have to 
get right back up and keep 

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00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,840
going. 
So I hope that this is like an 

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00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:29,080
episode that no one ever needs 
to really like leverage or use 

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00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,400
or rely on. 
But I also hope that if you are 

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00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,160
in this situation or you find 
yourself in the situation that 

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00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,000
it's helpful in some way to you.
So all of the articles that I 

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00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,480
referenced and all of the links 
that I kind of talked about will

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00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,560
be in the show notes. 
So you can kind of do your own 

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00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,400
digging and read a little bit 
more. 

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00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,960
But, you know, sometimes it can 
be really difficult if we are 

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00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,400
the ones like the practitioners 
kind of executing or driving 

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00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:02,040
forward either a goal or a 
termination or like something 

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00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,680
for the business and then it's 
kind of turned on us and then 

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00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,680
we're the ones experiencing it. 
That's probably very difficult. 

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00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,520
And I hope I never have to 
experience that too. 

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00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,880
But if Forbes is right and 40% 
of Americans experience a layoff

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00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,960
and throughout their careers, 
like that's tough, then that 

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00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,760
might be something that we all 
have to, you know, one day be 

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00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,280
prepared for. 
So with that, I hope you all 

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00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,800
have a wonderful rest of your 
week. 

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00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,040
Thank you again for listening to
this episode. 

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00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,000
And don't forget, next week is 
the last episode of the layoff 

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00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,600
series with Dan Goodman, and I'm
really excited for you to hear 

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00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,560
all of his thoughts. 
Thank you so much. 

335
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,280
Hey, just before you go, don't 
forget to subscribe to this show

336
00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,200
so that you are the first to 
hear when an episode drops each 

337
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,640
week and maybe leave a five star
review and a comment about how 

338
00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,440
much you loved this episode. 
Plus, if you have someone in 

339
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,880
mind who would really enjoy this
episode, make sure you share it 

340
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:56,880
with them. 
Thank you so much for tuning in 

341
00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,120
and I'll see you next week.