1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,840 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,280 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,880 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,880 and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,800 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,600 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,640 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,480 back to human resources. Hello everyone, and welcome back 10 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,960 to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 11 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,840 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 12 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,040 Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you're 13 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,120 catching this episode. And this week, we are going to 14 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,840 hopefully actually have a lot of laughs because of the content of 15 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,560 our discussion. But I have Howard Miller on and 16 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,560 he is a #1 best selling author of Burdens and Saying a Lie. 17 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,320 I'm so sorry. Let me take that again. 18 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,560 I'm tripping over my words so my editor will kindly edit this 19 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,440 part out and take it from the top here. 20 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Howard Miller is the number one best selling author of Burdens 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,320 and Blessings, A lighter hearted approach for middle-aged folks 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,800 dealing with aging parents. A heartfelt and humorous exploit 23 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,400 exploration of the challenges and joys of caring for aging 24 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,800 parents. Through personal anecdotes, 25 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,840 Miller shares his journey of navigating health issues, 26 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,280 emotional struggles, and loss, emphasizing the transformative 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,680 power of levity as a coping mechanism. 28 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,480 With over 10 years of experience teaching management skills in 29 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,360 the corporate world, Howard empowers professionals with the 30 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,480 tools to work smarter, not harder, to achieve greater 31 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,080 results. He's a sought after speaker and 32 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,640 engages corporate and community audiences with relatable stories 33 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,440 showing how levity can strengthen relationships, reduce 34 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,320 stress, and positively impact a company's ROI. 35 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,640 Plus, in addition to his writing and speaking, Howard is a 36 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,840 successful entrepreneur with over a decade of experience in 37 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,000 the bookkeeping industry, and his work bridges the connection 38 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,840 between processing grief and approaching life's everyday 39 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,560 challenges, inspiring others to face adversity at home or in the 40 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,440 workplace with resilient resilience, perspective, and 41 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,160 levity. And I think the first dose of 42 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:08,240 levity that we'll have is that I apparently I'm tripping over my 43 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,680 words today. My goodness, I'm sorry. 44 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,120 I hope you still feel proud of what you've accomplished. 45 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,520 Tracy, I was trying to, I I thought, oh boy, I could start 46 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,400 laughing and you'll start. I know, I know it would happen 47 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,680 that. Way it's great to be here. 48 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,560 Thank you for having. Me of course, of course. 49 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,840 You know, I, I pride myself on being pretty well spoken, but 50 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,680 for whatever reason couldn't get the words out today. 51 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,240 But hopefully that'll improve over the course of our 52 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,640 conversation. You know, whenever I would teach 53 00:02:44,640 --> 00:02:48,120 a class and something you know you do it after a while becomes 54 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,760 routine. But if someone challenged 55 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,320 something at the beginning of the class or something technical 56 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,000 went wrong, I said to myself, oh this is good, because I knew 57 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,800 that the day would. Be right there's something yeah, 58 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,320 it's true it's true we can't all be perfect all the time Well 59 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,160 first of all, thank you so much for joining the podcast. 60 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,200 I think this, this topic is one that, you know, I didn't 61 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,040 necessarily expect to bring to the to the podcast because it's 62 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,320 something that I think sometimes we don't necessarily think 63 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,720 about, like how do we caregive? How do we bring levity to the 64 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,640 workplace? How that's all related. 65 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:26,160 And levity is a, a big part to me of what makes me feel happy 66 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,400 at work, like when we share laughs and things like that. 67 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,960 So I just, I guess I just didn't realize how much of A of a 68 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,680 talking point this is, that levity is something that doesn't 69 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,920 exist everywhere. Well, what's interesting about 70 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,360 that is when I first taught management skills and the way 71 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,400 that communication, leadership skills and the way to be more 72 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,240 effective with that, I wasn't necessarily thinking the same 73 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,520 thing either. It was after experience. 74 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,760 I don't know how many years, 10 years of my life can be very 75 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,360 different because you as your parents start getting older. 76 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,920 And I was taking more time with them and in the journey of it, 77 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:09,240 creating over 350 documents about doctors, home care 78 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,520 agencies and just some thoughts and feelings and pills and all 79 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,400 that. But and then writing the book 80 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,720 for me initially because it was cathartic, one way to process 81 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,160 grief, but I also realized other people can benefit as well. 82 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,440 Definitely. And then I thought, well, 83 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,120 lighter hearted approach is levity. 84 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,720 There's a lot of funny parts to the book because I grew up with 85 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,400 humor. Laughter is the best medicine 86 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,120 was a book that was in our house and my mother in the, you know, 87 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,600 if we could get her to laugh in that moment, she was alive as 88 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,840 anyone else, right when people when people would laugh. 89 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:50,720 And it got me thinking, well, if I could have levity about this, 90 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,720 where can people have levity in the workplace? 91 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,400 And I do want to say that levity isn't necessarily being funny. 92 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,360 Some people are just aren't funny or they're not as funny 93 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,080 or, or you know, it. It's. 94 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,360 So that's not necessarily what it is. 95 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,400 It's being more lighthearted. And it it's. 96 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,360 It could be something as simple as changing your perspective. 97 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:13,680 Yeah. So when you're looking at it, if 98 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,160 you're stressed in a situation by reframing it, by asking 99 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,040 different questions, that's a form of levity. 100 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:21,880 So I thought that's how I came up with this. 101 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,280 You know the concept. Oh right, they do connect. 102 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,080 Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing 103 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,160 that. Here I go with my words again 104 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,680 because after we initially spoke, however many months ago 105 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,680 at this point, it was I thought about a time in my career where 106 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:44,360 I felt so weighed down by an experience that was, I felt was 107 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,760 like really negative. And I was like unhappy and ready 108 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,680 to leave. And at that time, you know, I 109 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,760 wasn't like the mature person that I am now. 110 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:54,920 And I was like, OK, I'm just going to leave. 111 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,120 And when I was reflecting on some of the points that you've 112 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,720 just shared that we had talked about, initially, I thought, 113 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,960 like, wow, if I had just reframed what was happening in 114 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,400 that moment, if I brought to myself a different perspective, 115 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,600 even though I wasn't getting that elsewhere, maybe I would 116 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,080 have overcome that challenge. Maybe I would have responded 117 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,000 differently. Because in the workplace it can 118 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,520 feel very intense when something is negative. 119 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,600 Yeah, and you might have expanded, you still might have 120 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:33,600 left, but it is all growing experiences to not just leave, 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,080 but to learn and go, OK, it's still a certain way. 122 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,120 And you still choose to leave. I had a friend who was 123 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:46,000 constantly in data, some kind of data software development and 124 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,520 kept leaving companies. Well, what was the common 125 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,160 thread? It was them, but it takes, as 126 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:52,840 you said, as we get older and learn. 127 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:59,400 And it was my dad who lived to 99 and it was July of 2021, and 128 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,200 it was a few weeks before he passed. 129 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,280 And my brother spoke to him a lot about his work. 130 00:07:05,280 --> 00:07:06,960 My brother's an entertainment lawyer. 131 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:10,080 And he would be on the phone driving in LA in traffic, and my 132 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,840 father would just listen. At the end of this conversation, 133 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,360 my father said to him, Andy, that's my brother, it'll work 134 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,040 out. And if it doesn't work out, it 135 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,400 worked out. And he told me that after. 136 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,680 And then he died a few weeks later. 137 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,040 We didn't know he was going to pass. 138 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,000 And I was like, he may not have lived his whole life like that, 139 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,920 but the fact that he shared that with us, then that's the quote 140 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,840 in the front of my book. And it's a mantra I say to 141 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,960 myself every day. So we're not going to make all 142 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,160 the right things, but decisions. But isn't it about now, Tracy, I 143 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,640 would ask you, I don't know how many years ago this one of those 144 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,120 that job was, but do you remember the specifics of it or 145 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:51,880 you just remember you weren't happy? 146 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:53,800 Right. Yeah. 147 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,680 It's kind of like the feeling you remember. 148 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:57,480 Yeah. But you get so intense and you 149 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,080 know when it's, it could even be just months later and it's not 150 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,720 gonna meet him. Totally. 151 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,560 Yeah, totally. And you know, it, it not only 152 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:10,720 the the title of your book, but also just the the content of, of 153 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:12,760 what it brings. It makes me think about 154 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,440 something that I often say still to this day. 155 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,760 So if any of my Co workers are listening, they're probably 156 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,800 like, yeah, she just says she says this anytime. 157 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,880 Like, you know, something is like not going right or 158 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,520 something is messed up. And we're like, Oh my God. 159 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,720 I'm always like, listen, if you don't laugh, you cry. 160 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,240 So like, let's let's find something about this that we can 161 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,240 just like, you know, not feel so brought down by. 162 00:08:38,919 --> 00:08:42,840 And I think, yes, I, I, that's how I, I think that's how I live 163 00:08:42,919 --> 00:08:45,640 my life. You try to find the glass. 164 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:47,800 What's what's happened because of it? 165 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,080 You know, something that you didn't want to have happen, but 166 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,680 if it didn't, you wouldn't have had something else. 167 00:08:53,680 --> 00:08:55,680 Yeah, right. It's all about the journey, I 168 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:56,520 suppose. Yeah. 169 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,320 Well, it'll work out. Yeah, absolutely. 170 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:00,640 Yes. Well, that's interesting. 171 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,120 It is about the journey. I would go if I had a class of 172 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,840 managers and managers, if it could be new managers, leaders, 173 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,840 but they had managers under them. 174 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,600 And I would say, OK, you're going, You have 30 minutes of 175 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,480 content to go over in a meeting. How long do you make the 176 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,240 meeting? And I'd get answers from 177 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,920 anywhere from 20 minutes to maybe an hour. 178 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,480 And the answer really is at least an hour. 179 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,440 How come? Because there's content and 180 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,960 process and what part is usually ignored? 181 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,560 The process. The process, I mean, but they 182 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:36,440 could be questions, there could be discussions. 183 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,240 And so we're all, we all have to be goal oriented. 184 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,840 But it really, when you look at it, it's the process. 185 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,200 I look at all the things you said that I do. 186 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,440 Did I plan all that? No, I mean, it just happens, 187 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,360 right? And you look and go, OK, that 188 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,600 makes sense that that job made sense. 189 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,080 If I hadn't had that, it would go this way, you know, so, so so 190 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,440 it's yeah, it's the process that we all really should be that 191 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,480 that will that will sustain us. And we'll look back and see 192 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:04,120 that. Right. 193 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Yeah, That's really helpful. And it does make me think about 194 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:12,160 how one of the things that you tend to talk about is that 195 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,640 levity can play a role in reducing stress and burnout, 196 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,960 especially if, you know, an employee is balancing multiple 197 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,960 priorities between their work and their personal lives. 198 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,880 Where do you see that taking effect, so to speak? 199 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,560 Well, first, how do you feel about that employee in general? 200 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,040 Right, Because it's, it, it comes down to the hardest part 201 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,800 for any kind of leader is to get over their ego, get over how 202 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,840 they think about things. So if they have a negative 203 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,560 feeling about a particular employee, they're going to look 204 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:49,320 at that and go, you know, they think they're not getting their 205 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:51,720 work done. What you just said about not 206 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,640 balancing work in person, well, if they spent more time at work, 207 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:02,920 right, as opposed that if they had things going on like they, 208 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,720 you would be like, wow, how can I help them? 209 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,400 How can I help them prioritize? So you, you, it's all about 210 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:11,800 communication and meeting with them. 211 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,160 Now, first of all, that employee needs to go to their manager, 212 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,880 right, and say something. But then you have to listen and 213 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:21,880 be there to help them, not necessarily challenge them. 214 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:24,320 It's it's easier to say than done. 215 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,520 And with some people that you know that an example I've always 216 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,640 used you have a great employee, someone from another department 217 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,440 comes to you and says I have a problem with them. 218 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,920 What do you so one person? What? 219 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:38,280 What was that? I said like, what does that 220 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,640 mean? Yeah, what you'd be like, you'd 221 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:42,960 probably brush it off, right? You have someone who you're 222 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,120 having issues with. One person, one time comes in 223 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,040 and says they're having a problem. 224 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,800 You're all over it, right? So it's, it's hard and we can't 225 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,320 like everybody, but yet how do you put that aside? 226 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,560 So when your, your question though, is how do you balance 227 00:11:55,560 --> 00:12:00,920 the work and the personal I, I, you have to trust the employee 228 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,760 wants to get their work done and you, but you, you can't, you 229 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,400 don't ignore it. You have to say, OK, this is, I 230 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,640 need to get this done by a certain date. 231 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,320 The more specific you are about it, not about you're just not 232 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,520 working hard enough or things are falling to the wayside, 233 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:20,840 whatever it is. Yeah, no, that's fair. 234 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,840 I, I think when I, when I think about levity, especially in this 235 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,640 case where someone maybe is feeling all this pressure to 236 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,520 perform in both their work and personal lives and isn't 237 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:38,200 necessarily getting the support that they need because of these, 238 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,920 you know, obvious leadership kind of pitfalls. 239 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:46,800 I do see, you know, if a leader to your point can overcome those 240 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,240 pitfalls and infuse levity or infuse more understanding or 241 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:55,520 whatever it might be into their environment that it's like you 242 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,440 have a little bit of a reprieve. Because it's kind of I guess it 243 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,320 kind of goes both ways. If you have a personal life 244 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:06,000 that's really balanced and regulated and you don't have 245 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,680 anything too chaotic or like burdensome happening, like 246 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,800 you're getting a reprieve from your maybe more chaotic work 247 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,520 life while you're, you know, not at work, but and then like the 248 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,040 same, I feel it could probably be true vice versa. 249 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,000 But if you have two chaotic environments, that's probably 250 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,520 not great. But there's you can't like as 251 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:27,400 you can't control someone else's. 252 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,000 No. Actually, just for some reason, 253 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,960 because I finished season 2 of Severance, where their brain 254 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,960 goes and they separate their lives, that's not what. 255 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:35,680 No. Yeah. 256 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:38,480 Right, right, right. Real life isn't like that right 257 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:44,440 here. But you as the manager, there's 258 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,960 only so much you can OK the manager. 259 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,240 Here's the focus they should have. 260 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,880 Is the job getting done or not? It's not. 261 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,600 They're too involved in their personal life. 262 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,600 Is the job getting done or not? You go, you have scenarios, 263 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,720 someone comes in early or late and I have my own opinion about 264 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,320 those, you know that. And it's like, but if they're 265 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,440 getting their job done, what are you focused on, right? 266 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,080 And it doesn't matter and it doesn't matter. 267 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,600 And of course the managers might use that 4 letter word beginning 268 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,440 with F that they shouldn't use, which is no, not fair, 269 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,560 professional, no fair. Ohh fair. 270 00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:18,800 That's. Fair others like fair is a 271 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,880 terrible word because it's subjective. 272 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,000 Right. Like what is fair? 273 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,080 I don't know. What is fair? 274 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,480 I have no idea. And when I do ask people, no, 275 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,800 none of us do you ask if I ask managers what's a four letter 276 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,560 word beginning with F, and I say this is a professional, you know 277 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,200 what that you should avoid. Most of them say fail. 278 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,080 And I say, well no, but the first 3 letters are correct. 279 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,040 You have to let, but you have to let employees fail. 280 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,960 Of course, failure is a huge part of learn Success, yeah. 281 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,080 I tell them the first 3 letters are correct but and then they 282 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,400 get fair because if you try to be fair you, you will fail. 283 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,240 And so it really comes down to are they getting their job done? 284 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,200 And if they're not getting something done, how do you get 285 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,000 them to do it? And don't say because it's their 286 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,480 personal life. I mean they only might bring it 287 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,240 up and there's totally legitimate reasons, right? 288 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,040 Every all of us have things in our personal life that should 289 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,240 take priority at different times. 290 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,120 Yeah, it's true. It's true. 291 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,200 Like even hearing your story about like your parents and, and 292 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:23,240 some of the, you know, specific experiences that led, you know, 293 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,600 and I realized we, we should probably talk about this too a 294 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,080 little bit further, but that ultimately led to you writing 295 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,920 your book. There is no controlling life. 296 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,120 And when life happens and it's, it's how you cope with those 297 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,760 things and deal with those things. 298 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,280 And you just reminded me, and I don't know if I put this in the 299 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,560 book, I was teaching live. This is before the pandemic and 300 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,760 my father had broken his head, but it hadn't been that year. 301 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,720 So 2017. And I was about to start the 302 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,760 class or no, no, no, I started the class. 303 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,760 I happened to glance down and my brother called. 304 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,520 OK, ignored it. Then my mother called. 305 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,120 I'm like, you know, I, I, I, it's like, OK, So I kept going. 306 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,240 And then when they were doing something, I quickly and it took 307 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,200 me just a second when I heard one word. 308 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,360 It wasn't in the emergency. But then I, I, I had my mother. 309 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,520 I said OK, look, I will tell you when I'm teaching and don't 310 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,400 call. In the morning. 311 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,080 I I, well, yeah, even, I mean, don't. 312 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,520 And so I'll call you during my breaks or at lunch, you know, 313 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,040 just to check in because at that point I was checking in with 314 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,520 them at least once a day. So. 315 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:38,920 But yeah, it was. My dad is is notorious for 316 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:44,480 calling like 2-3 times then texting call me and I'm like 317 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,560 what's going on? Is everyone OK? 318 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,560 And he's like, Oh yeah, I just wanted to see or you and the 319 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,720 girls. Are you guys coming to Jersey? 320 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,000 Like could this not have waited? Like I literally had a heart 321 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,000 palpitations, like come on, right but. 322 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,720 And that's I gave specific instructions and they were 323 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:03,960 followed. But there, you know, there's 324 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:08,599 times we we all have both lives, but it's and even the managers 325 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,079 who want The Who feel like their employees personal lives are too 326 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:13,480 much. Sometimes the manager is going 327 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:14,880 to have that. So we all have it. 328 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,520 It's true, it's true, it's really true. 329 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,319 It's this is I mean, it's, it's perfectly likened to my podcast. 330 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,400 It's called bringing the human back to human resources. 331 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,880 Like and it doesn't just exist in HR. 332 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,000 Like bringing the human back to anything makes sense And I. 333 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,280 I hope so. I hope so too. 334 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,920 I hope so, because when that stops, then we're not relevant 335 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,960 as human beings, right? If that stops, I think what no 336 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,800 matter what technology we go and move forward, the human being 337 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:51,120 matters and. 1000% yeah 1000% I would love to hear more about 338 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,600 the the inspiration behind your book, how you even came up with 339 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,080 the title Burdens and Blessings, and what you maybe even learned 340 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,920 from writing it yourself. So first, it's, it's not my 341 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,800 first book, but it's a personal book. 342 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,920 When I was a coach earlier on, I put little marketing blurbs out 343 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,840 where I learned three things. My, you know, just everyday 344 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,240 life. My father said, please don't 345 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,520 include me anymore. But it was, it was called you're 346 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,200 full of you're full of shift. And and then I wrote a book 347 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,840 about managers called the manager Trap. 348 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:30,040 So I so I was accustomed to writing down things. 349 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,280 So I had the idea of writing this. 350 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,160 So I, I had the idea of writing books. 351 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,480 I knew how to do it. And going through this, I took 352 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,480 all these notes in the back of my mind. 353 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,920 I thoughts this I, I will need, I will write it down. 354 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,280 I didn't know where it was going per SE, right at the moment. 355 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:57,920 I that's, that's just how I was. And I think it was my mom passed 356 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,160 December of 22, so it was around March. 357 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:02,760 I went back down to LA to get stuff. 358 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,320 I left at my brother's and I went to a cafe and got an 359 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,560 outline of what I could write the different, you know, how to 360 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,800 handle just the different topics. 361 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,120 I put in there financial considerations. 362 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,680 You know, what, how you, how you, when do you become the, 363 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,600 when do children become the parents and just, you know, and 364 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,040 then of course there was humor that they couldn't hear, they 365 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,800 wouldn't get hearing aids, things like that. 366 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:32,000 So but what I've so I wrote it as I said for me, but then I 367 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,640 what was interesting to me is some of the thoughts in the book 368 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,160 lines I just wrote. I don't say they were put aways, 369 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,800 but how they connected with people like I wrote in there. 370 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,120 I didn't like when people called me a good son. 371 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,160 Never like, Oh, you're a good son. 372 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:51,520 I I was a dutiful son because some of my thoughts Tracy, were 373 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,840 not necessarily. Good. 374 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,720 Now really, I have a tennis buddy who wasn't close with his. 375 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,000 He was estranged from his dad. And I said, would you when he 376 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,160 goes, are you going to have any regrets? 377 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,560 He goes no. No. 378 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:10,080 And I go, in some ways I was kind of envious really, but 379 00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:10,880 yeah, you know what I mean. And. 380 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,800 It's like to just be so unburdened. 381 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:14,600 I was not. I was. 382 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,040 And I think I even said to them once, you're my burdens and 383 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,200 blessings. I don't know how much they 384 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,640 appreciated that. Well, the question is could they 385 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,680 hear if they were not willing to get the hearing aids? 386 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,240 Maybe they never even heard what you said. 387 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,520 No, they heard. They heard when they, you know, 388 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,200 it's funny. After Dad passed, my brother 389 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,680 said to me, I could see why he didn't want a hearing aid. 390 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,800 He didn't want to necessarily hear everything my mother was 391 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,920 saying. Well, they heard, but it would 392 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,920 just be enhanced. Yeah. 393 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,920 So, so. Oh, no, my mother also couldn't. 394 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,720 And this is this is in the book. She couldn't see. 395 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,120 She and she did. She had macular degenerations. 396 00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:58,160 The shots didn't work, but one time I came in after driving 6 397 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,560 hours, I walked in, she goes Howard. 398 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,520 Those shorts are hideous. And I said I thought you can see 399 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,120 she goes Howard. One doesn't have to see to see 400 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:11,000 how hideous those shorts so. What did you do with the shorts? 401 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:15,600 Eventually I got rid of. But not until you wanted. 402 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,840 To yeah, right. It sounds so funny, but, but so 403 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,440 there were So what I learned from writing the book is there's 404 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,120 different parts. Oh, so the dutiful versus good 405 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:28,240 son. That's what I was talking about. 406 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,080 I, I just, I did what I was raised to do. 407 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,280 I mean, it, doesn't it? I, we did, I couldn't have not 408 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,160 done it, you know what I mean? I could not have done what we 409 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,440 did. And it was and I'm very grateful 410 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,120 for it. I'm grateful that my parents 411 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:48,280 lived to 99 and 92 and dad lived with his mind. 412 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,800 You know, he broke his hip at 94, lived five more years even 413 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:57,440 though 90% of people die. After after a major fall, I 414 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,760 guess, yeah. My, my, my dad, who never was 415 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,320 athletic, took five years. My mom who played tennis till 416 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,920 about 80 and she broke her hip and was dead in less than 48 417 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,000 hours, mercifully, mercifully, because at that point, so you, 418 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,240 you don't, you don't know, but just, it was what we, what we 419 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,800 did, what I, I couldn't have not done it, but there were a lot of 420 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,680 changes your life. So I was a little jealous of, 421 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,680 you know. Of that, but like the lack of 422 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,080 heaviness, I guess. And although I guess it's hard 423 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,800 to know if even without those burdens, if there isn't 424 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,040 something different burdening that person potentially or 425 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,320 feeling heavy, you know? Right, of course. 426 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:44,120 But I feel I had the privilege to watch two people get old 427 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,000 without major illnesses. Yeah, my mother had her 428 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,520 illnesses, but there was no cancer. 429 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,160 There was, you know, there wasn't anything like that. 430 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,200 And in fact, when they were for a while, they would joke like I, 431 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,400 I guess it could have been even my father, either late 80s or 432 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,440 early 90s, and my mother would have been maybe early 80s. 433 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,760 And they said to me once or twice, how does it feel hanging 434 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,800 out with old people? And I'm reflecting on that. 435 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,960 I realized you're not old when you say that. 436 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,040 You're not. You're not. 437 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,240 You're just not. Because when they got old, they 438 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,160 didn't say that, you know? And everyone gets old at a 439 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,160 different time. You know, we could all joke, oh, 440 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,000 we're feeling things, but we don't, you know? 441 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:20,880 Yeah. You know, So. 442 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:21,800 Yeah. So. 443 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,160 And I'm still learning from, you know, when I. 444 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,760 In fact, I'm doing an audio version of my book on Wednesday, 445 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,320 and I'll learn more as I read every word of it. 446 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,560 Yeah, yeah. Especially aloud. 447 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,520 I mean, yes, reciting things is totally different. 448 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,400 Well, when I did that invite to get the, you know, with someone 449 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,280 else to get the, the kinks out and all that, I really felt the 450 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,440 burden. You could feel the, the stress 451 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,320 of it. And, but everyone has that. 452 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,040 And I mean, as people are living longer, we're all going to have 453 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,240 that. And that does impact your other 454 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,280 your purse, your life, and including work. 455 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:05,880 Definitely and. And there's no, so This is why, 456 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,400 you know, I was, I maybe I was naive, but I thought once the 457 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,800 pandemic started and so many more people were working from 458 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,320 home, companies would realize, oh, there's still things are 459 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,160 getting done. We don't have to have mandatory 460 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,160 work hours of people come in. But I feel like there's a push 461 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,080 the other way. Yeah, Lately, yeah. 462 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,440 And I, I and I feel like if, if people had more flexibility to 463 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,160 get the work, I think most people want to get their job 464 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,560 done. They feel responsible and they 465 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,160 have to. They need to balance it out. 466 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,680 So I agree, I agree, I think most people do. 467 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,960 Also, I think this is where it comes back to leadership 468 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,280 pitfalls. Like if a leader is unable to 469 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,080 get past their sense or need for control, then they're going to 470 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,520 require that people are in the office so they can watch and 471 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,560 see. Well, then they're not, in my 472 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,280 opinion, effective leaders, but they do have an ability to 473 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,920 control and that is because if you're working and actually what 474 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:07,920 I if my experience was managers, this is back back in before I 475 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,160 would say in the mid well, I don't know what decade 2014, 476 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,040 fifteen, whatever, you know, 2010 to 15, I don't know, we 477 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,320 call that decade. I know the but yeah, I go, I go 478 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,720 managers I felt who had remote employees had more process with 479 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,880 them than the ones they see every day because I'm a big 480 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,400 believer in weekly one-on-one meetings. 481 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,120 And I have an agenda for that, to let the employee talk and ask 482 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,840 them what their what's going well and what their challenges 483 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,400 is. And then you bring up what you 484 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,120 want based on their challenges and you use their words. 485 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,280 It's much more effective. So you have control. 486 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,560 You're just not, you know, if especially if you need something 487 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,360 done and you're meeting with them and you could say, well, 488 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:56,120 this needs to to get done. Sometimes they don't know what 489 00:25:56,120 --> 00:26:02,400 the priority is that you want. A thousand, 1000% And I think 490 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,280 when I, when I reflect on my work experience in both typical 491 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:11,160 office settings and then now being a remote employee, I think 492 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,960 there's much more time spent one-on-one with people and with 493 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,960 my leaders than when I was in an office. 494 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,000 Because it's true. You kind of just like, I mean, 495 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,440 maybe if you add up the times where you're like, hey, I have a 496 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,640 question for you or oh, can we just chat about this? 497 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,680 Maybe if you add that up, it's like kind of similar. 498 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,800 But I do think that there is a bit more of an organized 499 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:38,200 approach to just operating being remote because you can't have it 500 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,080 any other way and there's so much more interfacing. 501 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,520 And it doesn't mean you're not being, you can't be human as 502 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,920 well, right? But I think the process doesn't 503 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,840 mean you're not human. It just means it's building the 504 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,240 communications to be more effective to get, you know, is 505 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,200 the job getting done or not. Right. 506 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,680 Right. You can't really. 507 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,040 For if you look at your personal life, I don't think you're ever 508 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,760 going to say it that way. Is everything getting done 509 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,800 because it doesn't, right. But but it is a way. 510 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,800 I think it's helpful for everyone involved. 511 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:08,320 I agree. I agree. 512 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:12,960 It's funny, so I related a lot to what you said before around 513 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,680 how does it feel to, you know, be hanging out with a bunch of 514 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,400 old people. My grandma is 99 and my her 515 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,640 sister is 103, if you can believe it, right? 516 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,600 And they both, thank God, knock on wood, live independently and 517 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,080 all this stuff. And my grandma, every day she's 518 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,600 like, you know, we'll say to her, why don't you like use the 519 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,640 senior bus every now and then? You can go and get your nails 520 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,160 done, your heads. She always has us order an Uber 521 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,600 for her. God bless, honestly. 522 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,280 And she's like, I don't want to hang out with all those old 523 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:47,960 people. I'm like. 524 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,440 OK, so I just your, your your 103 aunt year old aunt lives by 525 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,600 herself. She does. 526 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,400 She's very fortunate. They both do, yeah. 527 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:00,400 They don't drive. No, no, no. 528 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,600 No, OK, But you have a OK, So you have many, many years ahead 529 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:04,440 of you. That's kind of cool. 530 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,520 Well, yeah, the outlook. My parents did take the bus. 531 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,880 I remember my father had pacemaker put in. 532 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,800 I get, you know, and interesting enough, because it was wireless 533 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,520 connected, he figured out how to do that. 534 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,200 But I was there once when he had the phone call with OR. 535 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,920 I don't know if I zoomed with the doctor and he asked how long 536 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,040 the battery lasts. He was 97 and she checked. 537 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,560 He goes eight years and he goes, what do we do after that? 538 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,160 Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, good for him. 539 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,280 He. Always said he wanted to live to 540 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,120 120 so good for but. Wow, that's amazing. 541 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,120 Well, the will to live is a big part of living, I think, you 542 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,520 know, seeing what you have in front of you. 543 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,800 The will to live is significance. 544 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,120 We all need to feel significance in our lives. 545 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,400 And when we're younger, a lot of us put it just in not just into 546 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,200 our OK, I'll say just into our jobs. 547 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760 But then that's why that word retire seems strange to me. 548 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,640 As someone who works for myself. It's like I don't have to as 549 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,920 long as I could balance my life. You know, now it's harder when 550 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,040 you're working in a in a for someone else full time. 551 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,000 I get, I get that. But you still maybe do something 552 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,960 else. But when you get into your 90s, 553 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,080 I don't know. It sounds it's like some like, 554 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,000 what did you do this morning? And they say I had breakfast. 555 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,440 That was that's a source of significance for that. 556 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,080 Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, if we just said we 557 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,760 had just what did we do this morning? 558 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,080 I had breakfast, maybe, you know, it's like, Oh my God, I 559 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,360 got nothing done right. If you ask me, I would say that 560 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,720 for myself, but it's, it's interesting because how often 561 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,800 are we reflecting on life and the present and the past and the 562 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,520 future in a way where we're like, well, what was significant 563 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720 for me then and what's significant for me today? 564 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,880 So I don't think we do that. I, no, my experience is I don't, 565 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:55,200 I can't pick a year, but certainly I, I think there's 566 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,760 either you, you've had an someone like people who are 567 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,480 younger who's someone's significant size, you might 568 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,400 reflect, but generally I would say it's 40s or above. 569 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,280 That's why it's, you know, I don't know what middle age is 570 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,400 anymore where you start to reflect. 571 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,240 But but that doesn't mean so. So, but you don't have to 572 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,640 reflect For someone listening to this is like, well, that's not 573 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,200 me. But you do get stressed, right? 574 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,440 You might not have what you think is to be funny in the 575 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:23,840 workplace, but you do get stressed. 576 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,880 There's an easy way to shift that perspective. 577 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,640 And the easy way is how you talk to yourself and others in forms 578 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,560 of questions. And most of us start questions 579 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,480 with the word why. And I say don't start with the 580 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,600 word why. Do you know why, Tracy? 581 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,760 Well, what happens when you break your own rule? 582 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,000 Now, do I know what? Well, I I think it probably 583 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,840 makes someone immediately think about what you're looking to get 584 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,360 from their answer. It it puts you on the. 585 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,440 Defensive to answer that question. 586 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,520 And and actually, and so I say start every question with a what 587 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,040 or a how, you know there's a where or when are neutral 588 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,120 questions. Where are we going for lunch? 589 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,840 But what or how? And you could change every why 590 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,960 question to what or how. And if anyone tries that, it can 591 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,840 change their whole perspective of life. 592 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,560 And I'm dead. I'm dead serious about that 593 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,720 because when I do that, it's, you know, why is this late? 594 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,480 What prevented this from coming in on time? 595 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,040 And, and it's amazing how people can answer that differently. 596 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,160 Yeah, yeah. It lets their guard down. 597 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,280 And my question to you that said, do you know why I would 598 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,160 say never start with leading questions? 599 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,040 Do you know why will you get this done? 600 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,680 Because when your boss says will you get this done by Friday, 601 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,960 what do they want to? Hear Yes, that's the only 602 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,200 option. And you say it to shut them up. 603 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,800 You know, it's like or. So if you really want an answer, 604 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,600 how will you get this done? Yeah, so. 605 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,840 So what help do you need to get this done? 606 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:55,400 What? What? 607 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,320 What? Well. 608 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,640 But that's a little leading too I suppose. 609 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,480 What help do you need to? Well, it's, it's, it's, it's, 610 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,080 it's leading. Well, it's leading. 611 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,720 If you don't want, if they say to you, I need your help, if 612 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,120 you're not willing to give help, you better make sure or you're 613 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,280 like, what, what help or what support do you need? 614 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,240 You may not be able to give them any, but you, but you could ask 615 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,040 it. No, you mean not every question 616 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,160 is even with a water. How is great, but I'm just 617 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,800 talking about adding levity And and I I thought of that because 618 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,440 you mentioned when do you reflect back? 619 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,560 And it's like, I think that's you, you know, I, I think the 620 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,320 old you get you do. I mean, after I, this is going 621 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,640 to sound, I don't know, corny or whatever, but after I think just 622 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:43,040 my dad passed and I looked at a tree and it's like we humans are 623 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,000 that tree is around a longer time than we are. 624 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,320 We're here and our time goes fast. 625 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,800 It may not seem like it at some point, but then you look back 626 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:56,720 and go what just happened? Literally, literally, it's so 627 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,440 true. So, you know, and again, that's 628 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,000 what I think what my father said, it'll work out. 629 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,320 If it doesn't work out, it worked out. 630 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,680 So there are a lot of things at any age that people could could 631 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:14,080 do to for levity, which which is is funny, But and you have to be 632 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,960 careful about that too, because if there's a situation in the 633 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,520 moment where humor isn't appropriate, that may not be, 634 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,600 you know, you have to you pull it back a little. 635 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,760 Bit sure, you have to have some awareness of the situation. 636 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,640 Situational awareness. Absolutely, because it's 637 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,600 sometimes, but you know, and again, sometimes one-on-one I, 638 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,880 it depends, you know. Yeah. 639 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:36,720 It also depends on the relationship. 640 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,360 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. 641 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,320 Yeah, yeah, as I especially said, if for the manager who 642 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,400 doesn't like an employee or you know, or the employee doesn't 643 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,000 like the manager, right, the employee doesn't trust the 644 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,600 manager. They're never going to be able 645 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,760 to connect with the manager if they keep holding that. 646 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,640 Yeah, it's so true. I think about how, you know, 647 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,960 sometimes there's a breakdown, especially cross functionally 648 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,920 sometimes, like if one department wants something 649 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,440 specific, the other department wants something specific and 650 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,199 there isn't alignment there. How it can be such an intense 651 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:17,400 like conflict ridden experience for people and it feels personal 652 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:20,440 when someone tells one thing or says another. 653 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,199 And when I think about even really your, what your dad said, 654 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:29,520 it's like, well, there's, there, there are hard and fast rules to 655 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,239 certain things. And also like everyone has this 656 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,679 opportunity and this capability to, to be flexible and to think 657 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,199 about their own needs maybe even a little bit differently. 658 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,920 Like, sure, my needs and my department are going to feel the 659 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,320 most important to me, but they're not always going to be 660 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:48,600 the most important to other people. 661 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,360 So how do you that's where I think, like relationships are so 662 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,960 critical because a lot of where people start to care about what 663 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,080 you care about comes from them having respect for you and 664 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,360 feeling, you know, something other than, oh, this is a 665 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,320 coworker. That's yes, I had. 666 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,920 I coached a leading chief architect at a software company 667 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,080 in the Silicon Valley and he had a very important job, so he told 668 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:13,760 me. But he did. 669 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,920 He took that direction, but people weren't listening to him. 670 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,600 And in my first two coaching sessions with him, we just 671 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,360 weren't connecting. And I was confident enough to 672 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,800 think, OK, it's not my coaching, just we're not connecting. 673 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,880 So I was going to bring it up and he brought it up in our 674 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:32,760 third or fourth session. And he said, you know, you've 675 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,960 been giving me suggestions and I've been fighting them. 676 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,480 And he goes, I just always thought relationships would just 677 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,600 work themselves out. It's it's the, you know what, 678 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,040 the end result that matters. And that I really, we could have 679 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:49,360 ended our coaching then. And he then set to meet people 680 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,840 when he went to towns and just go out for coffee necessarily 681 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,920 not about what he wanted, just just what you were saying, just 682 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,760 to get to know them. And and then you get when you 683 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,800 get to know each other a little bit. 684 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,080 Goes a long way it it. It goes, I used to have problems 685 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,200 with my upstairs neighbor and now we, we had, we had 686 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,160 something. And then, I don't know, we get 687 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,720 along now. You know, It's, it's, it's, it's 688 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,720 really because we're all, well, yeah. 689 00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:17,800 Because we're all human, yeah. Absolutely. 690 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,440 At the end of the day, like, I mean, that's what I, I, I don't 691 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,080 try to boil things down so much where it's like, oh, are we 692 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,600 oversimplifying things? But really we're not, I mean, at 693 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,280 the end of the day, we all close our eyes to go to sleep and we 694 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,200 all hopefully open our eyes to wake up. 695 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,640 And that's just, you know, that's what makes us all so 696 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,360 similar. And we have like, there's so 697 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,600 many things that we can relate on with other people. 698 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,320 And especially for those listening who are in HR, there's 699 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,480 so much that they can do, so much more they can do in their 700 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,760 careers if they focus on building relationships, I think. 701 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,360 Yeah, one, one story here that I gave give an exercise to people 702 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,400 and I say you're leading a department, you've been working 703 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,080 for a while with them about a direction you're going to go and 704 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,160 you made your decision. One third, one third of the team 705 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,920 will love the direction you're going to go, 1/3 of the team 706 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,680 will hate the direction you're going to go, and 1/3 of the team 707 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,680 are on the fence. You have your first meeting 708 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,720 after you make your decision, which of those three group 709 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:18,760 groups do you focus on in that meeting? 710 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,440 And I put people into groups to decide which one. 711 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,040 And most people pick on the fence. 712 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,280 Yeah, that's what I probably would have gone with. 713 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,680 The answer is the group that hates it and the reason I 714 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:32,480 remember I said one third, one third, one third. 715 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,080 If you have 100 people and two people hate it, talk to them 716 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,840 offline. But I'm talking it's equal. 717 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,000 And the reason for the first meeting you do that is everyone 718 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,840 wants to be heard. Let them vent. 719 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,000 Let them vent one more time. Plus the people who love it will 720 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,840 talk with you, and the people on the fence could help make their 721 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:49,560 decisions. But. 722 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,880 That's a really good point. Yeah, this it goes down well to 723 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:54,440 you about it. It's what you were saying. 724 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,200 Everyone wants to be heard. Yeah. 725 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,760 And and and it goes to the great name of your podcast that it 726 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,520 were just all human. Yeah, we're human. 727 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,320 I mean, it's, yeah. Yeah. 728 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,560 No, that's so helpful. And I've really enjoyed our 729 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,880 conversation today. And as expected, I think we've 730 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,560 touched on so many things that that will hopefully allow 731 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,200 everyone listening to think maybe a little bit differently 732 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:22,040 or feel really inspired by what they can do to even just ask 733 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,800 questions differently or add levity into their own 734 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,120 experiences or in their workplaces. 735 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,960 And so with that, I'd love to give you the opportunity to 736 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,760 share where everyone can connect with you and, and you know, 737 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,960 really learn a lot more about what you do and who you are. 738 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:39,720 I I appreciate that. Thank you. 739 00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:43,280 Well, my website at which will be fulcrum point partners dot 740 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,800 com and I actually have a back slash with human so they could 741 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,200 connect to us and there you could get my book, but also get 742 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,360 a link to I teach management classes and I'd love to speak 743 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,640 more on levity. I'd love to come into different 744 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:05,320 corporate your organizations and talk about it and just because I 745 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:09,920 think it's it's it makes us all human and I and actually and 746 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,840 let's talk business wise right now. 747 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,160 Remember of a bookkeeper. It'll help your bottom line. 748 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,720 It will it will help it will. That's what all this is is 749 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:19,480 about, right? I mean, when you look, I mean 750 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,560 it's more than that, but when you were it's it also makes you 751 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,400 work not as hard when you work not as hard, you get more 752 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,000 results. It helps your bottom line. 753 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:27,480 It's. True. 754 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,320 And you know what? Frankly, there are people who 755 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,480 only care about that. And maybe that's OK. 756 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,920 Maybe that's how you have to appeal to them, you know, and 757 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,680 help them to. Understand there are people who, 758 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:37,360 there are people who should just care about that. 759 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:39,760 I mean, that's a whole other conversation. 760 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,280 Sorry to bring that up. But I feel like there are 761 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,080 people, they have other things that they might think, but they, 762 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,160 they, their job, their role is to just care about that. 763 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,560 Let me rephrase it. And you need people to do that. 764 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,240 Yes, it's true. Because, because let's, Because 765 00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:59,160 we're a, we have an economy and we have, you know, there's 766 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,400 there, but it doesn't mean we can't have both. 767 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:03,400 Right. Two things can be true at once, 768 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,040 and everyone serves a different purpose and upholding the the 769 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,120 balance between those things. You know, that's right. 770 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:10,920 Yeah. I love that. 771 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,040 What a perfect way to close out our conversation, actually. 772 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,120 And I would love to, you know, let's let's keep the 773 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,840 communication channels open. If you write another book, if 774 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,720 you come up with other ideas around how to, you know, really 775 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:29,680 jazz up the workplace and help to bring the human back to all 776 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,600 of it, we'd love to have you back on. 777 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,880 I would love to do that. Amazing, amazing. 778 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,840 And for all the listeners, we'll have the link with the specific 779 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,400 landing page for all of you in the show notes so you can click 780 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,080 there and connect with Howard and learn a bit more. 781 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,360 So Howard, thank you so much again for your time. 782 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,200 Really appreciate it. That's great. 783 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,200 Time has flown. By I know, right, we've had so 784 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,160 much fun. Thank you so much. 785 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,600 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 786 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,480 so that you are the first to hear when an episode drops each 787 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,920 week and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 788 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,720 much you loved this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 789 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,200 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 790 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,160 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 791 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:10,560 and I'll see you next week.