1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,640 You know how every home has that one spot, the place you think 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,800 about all day where you're finally able to exhale the 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,240 second you walk through the door? 4 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,600 From me? That spot is 100% my bed. 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,480 I have completely become a bed monger as I like to call them. 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,400 My husband is all about like just like being in bed all the 7 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:20,800 time. I used to just be like a couch 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,720 sitter, but now it's like I dream about my bed. 9 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,400 And listen, let's be honest, who in your house tries to sneak 10 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,440 into your bed the most? At my house, it is completely a 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:32,759 competition. My kids love to go into my bed. 12 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,920 Obviously, as I mentioned, my husband loves our bed so much. 13 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,200 And it's like everyone knows that Cozy Earth sheets are where 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,400 the comfort lives and where you know you're going to find the 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,000 most comfort in the entire house. 16 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,760 And Cozy Earth has this amazing bamboo viscose bedding and it is 17 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,840 truly next level. It naturally Wicks away heat and 18 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,280 moisture, which means that you sleep several degrees cooler. 19 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,520 And when I say it's hard to get out of the port bed in the 20 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,000 morning, I mean it. These sheets plus the bubble 21 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,600 cuddle blanket, which by the way, my friend has. 22 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,040 And so this is on my next like, you know, wish list. 23 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,240 The next order that I placed from Cozy Earth, I'm getting the 24 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,600 bubble cuddle blanket. It is mid weight ultra soft faux 25 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,000 fur blanket with the dreamiest bubble texture. 26 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:18,080 And my friends have very cozy homes also. 27 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:21,960 And when I go to my friend's house and use her bubble cuddle 28 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:24,280 blanket, I'm like, yeah, I don't plan to leave. 29 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,880 And so it's not just betting, it's a full on sensory retreat 30 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:30,360 on those days where you're feeling a little burnt out and 31 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:31,920 when life feels a little too much. 32 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,000 My cozy earth bed is the 1st place I want to be. 33 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,400 It's calm, cool, quiet and wrapped in the softest layers 34 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,920 imaginable. I personally never knew bedding 35 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,440 could actually feel this different, but once you try it, 36 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,080 you'll get it and you will never go back. 37 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,000 And here's the best part. It is a risk free. 38 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,000 Purchase you get a. 100 night sleep trial and a 10 year 39 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,640 warranty because Cozy Earth knows once you feel discomfort 40 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,760 you are not letting go. So head to cozyearth.com and use 41 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,480 my code human hour for 40% off. And hey, if you get a post 42 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,240 purchase survey. Don't forget, be sure. 43 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,680 To let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. 44 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,480 Because your bed should be more than just a place to sleep, it 45 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,680 should be your happy place. Cozy Earth makes that possible. 46 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,200 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 47 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,760 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff and I've sent 48 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,960 my entire rofessional career in hour. 49 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,560 Each week we'll exlore the delicate balance between people 50 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,560 an business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 51 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,440 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 52 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,240 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 53 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,280 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 54 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,920 back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the 55 00:02:36,920 --> 00:02:38,840 Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 56 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,960 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 57 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:42,760 You know what to do. Don't forget to write, review 58 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,880 and subscribe if you haven't done so already. 59 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,840 And this week we're talking a lot about well-being in the 60 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,600 workplace, but from an angle that we have not talked about 61 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,240 yet. And as an avid remote person, 62 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,840 meaning like I'm pretty big on being remote, at least having 63 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,960 the flexibility to do so. I think this is a very 64 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,320 interesting conversation that we're going to have today and 65 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,400 this week because we're going to talk about like returning to the 66 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,800 office and how we can make that experience one that's a good 67 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,240 experience and one that hopefully is as engaging as 68 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,600 possible. So it'll be interesting for us 69 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,560 all to flex this muscle, especially for me because I have 70 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,280 sworn up and down on my podcast that I never go back to the 71 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,880 office. However, I think if Sarah Davis, 72 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,680 who is my my guest this week, were in charge of what that 73 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,360 return to office looked like, I'd probably be less resistant. 74 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,480 So with that, let me introduce you to Sarah. 75 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,880 She is the Workplace Strategy Lead of HED, one of the largest 76 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:44,800 integrated architecture and engineering firms in the US, 77 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,120 serving clients nationally in a broad range of market sectors 78 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,960 including healthcare, higher Ed, mission critical housing and 79 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,320 mixed-use, pre K12 science, manufacturing and product 80 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,960 development, workplace, community and government. 81 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,640 Her sector specializes in designing workplaces that foster 82 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,160 creativity, collaboration, and a supportive team environment that 83 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,280 promotes the brand, products and services, and culture of the 84 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,480 client. Sarah is an analytical 85 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,520 strategist with 20 plus years of experience working in business 86 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,440 Intelligence and data-driven design. 87 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,480 She has been part of several high profile, award-winning 88 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,079 projects, including the design of Rock Venture's Detroit 89 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:24,120 headquarters, which was featured in Interior Design Magazine. 90 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,160 As the 2022 Best of Year winner for Medium Corporate Office, 91 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,280 Sarah has a depth of insight into design strategies and 92 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,480 styles that can impact company culture, productivity, and the 93 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,320 recruiting and retention of talent. 94 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,560 Sarah, thank you so much for joining the podcast and for 95 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,840 being here this week. Oh my gosh, thank you so much 96 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:43,360 for having me. What a nice introduction. 97 00:04:43,840 --> 00:04:47,000 Oh yes, well, I, I always say it to every guest that like when 98 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,120 someone reads a, reads your bio like it's, it's really a nice 99 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,360 reminder of every single thing that you've accomplished. 100 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,960 So kudos to you. And as your bio set on to to 101 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,800 introduce, we'll be effectively talking a lot about well-being 102 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,760 in the workplace and literally speaking like how well-being can 103 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,360 be designed. So maybe we start off by talking 104 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,600 about human centered design and what that looks like both in 105 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,360 office and with a virtual office and, and where you're maybe even 106 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,360 where your expertise comes from in this regard. 107 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,120 Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I'm haven't had a really 108 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,880 interesting kind of career up to the point that I'm at right now. 109 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,240 And it's always funny when you, you know, hindsight's 2020, when 110 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,640 you look back on it and you see kind of the path that you've 111 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,040 charted, you're like, OK, this all makes a lot of sense. 112 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:38,680 I came from a very analytical background right from the get 113 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,360 go. So I thought I wanted to be a 114 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,920 lawyer. And my background is actually my 115 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,480 degree is in political science, which some people say I don't 116 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,120 quite understand the bridge here. 117 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,920 But I really see a lot of synergy between the work that I 118 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:55,960 was doing, really understanding kind of complex and really kind 119 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,920 of elevated research studies and really kind of getting into the 120 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,400 nitty gritty and really elevating that into something 121 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,480 that is a summation of that. You know, what are the signals 122 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:06,840 telling us? What is this data and 123 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:08,360 information really pointing us to? 124 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,400 And so that led me to a career in business intelligence where I 125 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,400 spent 13 years helping to really start to read those tea leaves 126 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,920 and those signals and information and data and 127 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,680 becoming an extension of different teams within an 128 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,600 organization to understand the context they needed to see 129 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:26,040 information in. What is their perspective? 130 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:28,000 What are they trying to drive to? 131 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,680 What is their vision and their objectives? 132 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,520 And then how can we use this information to bolster and help 133 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,200 them along that journey to get them there? 134 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,680 So the last couple of years since 2018, I've been focused on 135 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,360 workplace design and specifically and really the 136 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,520 strategy behind it. And I think to some, it may seem 137 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,120 like it's kind of over the top or we have to do this really big 138 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,040 investment or renovation. But there's so many cues within 139 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,000 the workplace and so many opportunities that we have that 140 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,000 we can really better our environments in ways that are 141 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,240 really, really effective and functional for people to, as you 142 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,800 were just mentioning, feel their best. 143 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,040 When people feel their best, they're going to perform their 144 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,040 best, right? They're going to be kind of in 145 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,760 an optimal state to be able to do those things that we want to 146 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,320 do, which is really be innovative for their company, 147 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:13,720 right? So there's so many times where 148 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,640 we kind of just sit back and we're kind of going through the 149 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,840 motions. But what's that next level of 150 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,520 really being able to be creative, to be inspired, and 151 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,560 then take that and be able to recognize that for the 152 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,520 organization to do better? Yeah, it's a first of all, thank 153 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,360 you for sharing more about your background and how you've kind 154 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,200 of taken a more analytical approach to something that could 155 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:40,000 kind of just be crossing things off of a list and taking again 156 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,600 that approach and applying a human centered focus to it. 157 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,040 I think even all of the times that I spent in office or on 158 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,240 site, however we want to phrase it, I've thought about as, since 159 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,320 we've, we first spoke, I thought about, well, was it abundantly 160 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,720 clear to me that someone came in and really thought about the 161 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,120 experience that someone had or would have in this environment? 162 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,520 And there was only one instance where I could think of. 163 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,640 Oh, well, I know for a fact that there was a real intentionality 164 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,920 behind designing and creating the office space. 165 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,840 And that was at one of the retailers that I used to work 166 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,280 for. And I was there for like 5 167 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,400 years. And I remember distinctly that a 168 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,160 couple of my colleagues had kind of been tasked with really 169 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,280 creating a space that was inviting and welcoming and 170 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,840 comfortable. And with that, they worked with 171 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,559 someone who, like, helped pick out the right chairs and 172 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,440 designed, like, where the cubicles were, where the offices 173 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,480 were and what they looked like. And it didn't really have so 174 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,760 much of an effect in my mind at the time. 175 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,560 I wasn't like, oh, that's really nice. 176 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:53,200 They're thinking through all these things. 177 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,360 But now since reflecting on what you do, I'm like, oh, actually 178 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,560 there's a whole strategy behind this. 179 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,160 So I'm curious from your perspective, when we think about 180 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,040 this human centered approach to design, what are some of the 181 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,280 things that are really important to you that you really think 182 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,400 about when it comes to this return? 183 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:16,880 Especially thinking through the return to office transition 184 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:21,520 where you have potentially A cohort that is fairly resistant 185 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,880 and has maybe even a negative perspective on being in an 186 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,520 office compared to what they've been doing the last number of 187 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,320 years. Yes, could not have framed that 188 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:32,640 up better than what you just said. 189 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,240 I think before the pandemic, we were all just, it was just the 190 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,200 expectation, right? We were all on site. 191 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,200 We were there full time. And so there wasn't as much 192 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,040 thought given to the workplace and there wasn't, I think a lot 193 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,800 of opinion about it as much either, right, Because it was 194 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,960 just what you did. And now as we've been exposed to 195 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,320 these different environments over the last couple of years 196 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,640 and the way that we're working has shifted, coming back into 197 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,040 the environments that may not have been even that great 198 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:06,120 before, is that much more glaringly obvious in terms of it 199 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,600 having an impact, possibly a negative impact on our work. 200 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,520 So that's why I really like when you're talking about human 201 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,320 centered Design, HR is one of my favorite audiences to speak to. 202 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,440 And I don't just say that because I'm on this podcast. 203 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,640 I think that the reason is that people are really at the heart 204 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,560 of work and the perspective that HR professionals have in that 205 00:10:27,560 --> 00:10:30,800 conversation of thinking about attracting and retaining talent 206 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,480 and thinking about that on site experience that you mentioned. 207 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,000 And something really important is, you know, we have a culture. 208 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,840 We talk about that a lot. We talk about what it means. 209 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,320 We have our values and our mission, our philosophies, you 210 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:46,920 know, whatever we call them internally. 211 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:50,280 But this opportunity to then say, well, what does that 212 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,000 culture look like in our office, right? 213 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,200 What does that manifest in space? 214 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,480 And how do we make sure that there's not misalignment between 215 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,280 the two of those things? So if we say that people are at 216 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,440 the center of our organization, that they're our most important 217 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,440 asset, but then we're walking into space, that is clearly not 218 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,920 something that's very inspiring or thoughtful or, you know, it's 219 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,920 kind of your beige cubicles and, you know, no natural light and 220 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,440 fluorescent light and things like that. 221 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,280 People may say, well, maybe people aren't necessarily at 222 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:22,760 the, you know, center of your business. 223 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,080 So we really want to make sure that these things have alignment 224 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,520 and what you're talking about with your culture for especially 225 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,480 candidates, right? Candidates are coming in, 226 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,520 they're seeing on site, on your website, you know things that 227 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,400 you're talking about and they're thinking this is a great 228 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,240 organization. They have resource groups, they 229 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,640 have all of these celebrations and acknowledgements. 230 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:42,400 And then they come into your office. 231 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,240 And does the office really reflect and provide an 232 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:49,360 experience for your brand and your culture and space for that 233 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,040 candidate who's walking through the door or guest or visitor? 234 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,480 That's really helpful. It does make me think about how 235 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,400 you get that information. Like how do you, I mean, of 236 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,040 course, I'm sure that working with the client, you're 237 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,880 connecting on what the client's needs are and what they're 238 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,840 looking for, how many people they expect to have in the 239 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,400 office at one time, what their growth plan is and things like 240 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,720 that. I'm sure that that's all part of 241 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,920 it. But how do you gather the 242 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:21,600 sentiment from the, the like typical employee, let's say? 243 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,040 Is it what's reported on by the client or is it more than that? 244 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,440 That's part of it. Excuse me. 245 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,520 There's an opportunity, I think, for decision makers and HR in 246 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,640 particular to really think deeply about who they're 247 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,680 gathering information about the office from. 248 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,840 So as you just mentioned, surveys, getting some sentiment 249 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,720 from people who are actually in these spaces is really critical 250 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:49,200 and involving them in that part that processes is a really great 251 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,680 and critical element because they're the people who are 252 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,280 working and functioning in all these different niches of your 253 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,960 office space. You're the people that you may 254 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,880 be saying, you know, we want you to come back on site at, you 255 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:01,800 know, three days a week, four days full time. 256 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,320 So it's really important, I think to have diversity in terms 257 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,000 of who you're speaking with because as decision makers, if 258 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,760 you're saying we want everyone to come back in and you're only 259 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,280 relying upon the insights and the feedback of people who have 260 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,120 private offices, for example, the experience of someone who's 261 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,280 in a workstation is going to be a lot different. 262 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,040 And it's really important to make sure that you're gathering 263 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,320 information again from diverse perspectives. 264 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:26,920 And there's, you know, different ways to do that. 265 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,040 You can do surveys, you can do focus groups where you're 266 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,520 starting to bring in people from that are representatives of 267 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,120 different voices from different groups. 268 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,800 If you have a really big organization, that can be also 269 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,800 really powerful and effective. So there's ways to be able to 270 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,960 gather that information and start to understand, you know, 271 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,800 what are some of the challenges, what are people saying about our 272 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,600 environments and what are those sticking points that may be non 273 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,280 negotiables for people in terms of their expectations. 274 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:55,600 Whether it's around, you know, Wellness and some of the 275 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,480 well-being elements of the office. 276 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,680 Or if it's about just the fact that they can't get work done 277 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:04,120 because the office is too distracting or noisy and they 278 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,080 don't have that ability to focus, because then they're 279 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,600 going to want to default back to being in their home environment, 280 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,000 for instance, to be remote. That's really interesting. 281 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,520 I, I guess it, it does make me think. 282 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,080 I mean, I, I LED off the, the introduction with how much of an 283 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,040 avid remote worker I am and that, you know, my listeners 284 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,680 have heard me say probably over five times at this point in the 285 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,480 last, I don't know, few years that it would be very hard for 286 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,680 me to go back to an office. And that being remote is just 287 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,120 something that I really highly value above a lot. 288 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,080 And I know I'm not the only person that feels that way. 289 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,960 And I also know that realistically, there might be a 290 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,440 time where I am back in the office, but I might be back 291 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,920 begrudgingly. And they're, I'm certainly not 292 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,880 the only person in that with that headspace either. 293 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,760 And I'm a pretty optimistic person. 294 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,600 And there are people who are not optimistic who are begrudging 295 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,240 about these changes, right? So I, I share that because I, 296 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,520 I'm curious how there is like an approach to saying, hey, you 297 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,240 know, for clients of yours who say, like, you know, we're going 298 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,320 back to the office. If there is a part of the 299 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:24,720 strategy that you influence that relates to a flexible approach 300 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,720 and if that's something that you work with your clients on or if 301 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,840 that's kind of just like a business decision that they 302 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,520 decide on and you know, you effectively built like kind of 303 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,960 helped to design the environments around that 304 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,240 decision. Like where I guess the question 305 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,600 is where, where do some of those strategies sit? 306 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,600 Is it predetermined by the business or is it or by the 307 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:53,160 client or is it also influenced by the data that you get as you 308 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:54,800 are collecting all those insights? 309 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,080 Yeah, great question. So I think it's a little bit of 310 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,280 both. And the reason is that the 311 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,160 clients that we're servicing are coming from a myriad of 312 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,160 different industries. So they're serving different 313 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,000 functions. And I think depending on the 314 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,360 type of function that you're serving, it may, it may make 315 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,000 more sense for you to be in the office more full time versus 316 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,280 another role that can be facilitated a little bit more 317 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,240 easily remote. But I also think our clients are 318 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,880 looking to us for that guidance and understanding because it's 319 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,000 their portal of information to say, well, what are you seeing? 320 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,880 You know, what are your recommendations about our space? 321 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,720 And that's where really having this opportunity to go deep and 322 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,360 having that human center lens of coming in and saying, you know, 323 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,440 here's some discovery that we're doing about your particular 324 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,840 workplace, your culture. This is how we're seeing it from 325 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,960 the inside out. This is what we're seeing when 326 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,280 we come into your offices. Because sometimes when you're in 327 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,800 your office day in and day out, you kind of look past it, right? 328 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,280 You don't see some of the things that may be obvious to someone 329 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:49,440 else who's coming through the door. 330 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,200 So, you know, we're, we're saying and we're talking about 331 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,360 our culture this way and here's ways that we see your physical 332 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,120 environment lining up with that. And here's some ways that we may 333 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,920 not see it as much lining up with that. 334 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,720 So sometimes that outside perspective is really important, 335 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,800 but I think at the end of the day, it's really important for 336 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,079 organizations to understand the power of social connection that 337 00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:11,800 we've started to lose, I think throughout the pandemic in the 338 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,240 last couple of years and this opportunity that the workplace 339 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,960 really affords to bring people together. 340 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:23,280 And so I, you know, do workplace strategy obviously for, you 341 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,839 know, my living, but I also see value and I work from home 342 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:28,760 sometimes as well. So I think that there's an 343 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,720 opportunity to think about what is the purpose of the office, 344 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,960 which is going to be a little bit of a different answer for 345 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,480 every organization. What do you need the office to 346 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,880 do here? What do we want people doing 347 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,440 when they're on site? And how can we really use this 348 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,640 as a tool to optimize our business, right, in a really 349 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,960 effective way? And so the opportunity to bring 350 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,400 people together socially to connect them helps them to be 351 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,280 even stronger when they are then working remotely because we've 352 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,360 created rapport, we've created a sense of belonging. 353 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,960 I mean, especially for people who are new to an organization 354 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,840 or younger, just starting out, that ability to connect with 355 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,720 people, have a bit of that mentorship can be really 356 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,040 effective in person, right? It can bring them into the 357 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,360 organization, create that sense of identity in that sense that, 358 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,560 you know, I'm valued here as opposed to being remote all the 359 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,280 time and maybe not having that personal touch that you have 360 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,240 with your team otherwise. So I think that there can be a 361 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,760 lot of power in being on site, especially if it's done 362 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,560 effectively. Yeah, that, that definitely 363 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,720 makes sense to me. I appreciate what you've shared. 364 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,640 And one of the things I was thinking about as you were 365 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:37,000 speaking is that there is a, a generational element to this 366 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,640 too. Like, I just can imagine that if 367 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,520 someone's just graduated college and they're really looking to 368 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,360 make friends and meet people that working remotely is, is 369 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:51,080 undesirable, even if it provides them flexibility to do things. 370 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,120 And then on the other side of things, like there might be 371 00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,320 people in the same generation who really prioritize travel 372 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,640 over everything. And they're like, actually all I 373 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,040 want is remote work. And so you can certainly get 374 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:07,280 both from probably every generation or a mix of those 375 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,400 things from every generation. But I, I, I could definitely see 376 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,960 and, and at least reflect on my own career where if I, you know, 377 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,640 if I like, wasn't married with kids today, like would I want to 378 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,760 be in an office? Maybe, you know, if I, if I 379 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,680 really was looking for that social aspect to things. 380 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,160 Because something that I have really learned since being fully 381 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,880 remote is that it is, and predictably, it is very 382 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,600 difficult to build culture remotely. 383 00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:42,320 Like you can do it, it just takes a lot longer. 384 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:49,160 Whereas when you're in person, having a, having a great culture 385 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,400 is one of those things that hopefully is inevitable for 386 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,680 companies that prioritize having a good culture. 387 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,360 And so I, I think you know, for for our purposes or for the 388 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:04,520 purposes of someone in my type of role in HR or really any 389 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,640 other leader who wants to create something special. 390 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,960 For someone, a great experience for someone, it's one of those 391 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,640 things where to your going back to your point, what is the 392 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,320 office for? And there are companies out 393 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,760 there who have gone back to being in person very recently, 394 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,040 who to me, it seems that for them, when they answer that 395 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,280 question, it's about productivity, that there is a 396 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:34,880 sense that their team is not as productive as they once were. 397 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:40,520 And being in office is a, is an is basically an effort to drive 398 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,800 better productivity. If you ask me, I think 399 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,640 productivity comes when you focus on experience, because the 400 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,560 better someone's experience is, the happier they are at work, 401 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,960 the happier they are at work, the more willing they are to do 402 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,640 a great job. Even though of course, people 403 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,640 can be in bad environments and still have a deep responsibility 404 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,200 to their work. And not everything is mutually 405 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,720 exclusive. But I think this is probably to 406 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,480 me also a call to action for companies who want to go back to 407 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,320 the office or eventually bring people back to the office that 408 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,880 they really need to think about what the right purpose is, that 409 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,920 sure, productivity might be your end goal, but it doesn't have to 410 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,280 be the why. Agreed. 411 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,000 You know, Yeah. Yeah. 412 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,400 I mean, I feel like what you just touched on is, is so true. 413 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,040 I mean, people can be productive in a multitude of different 414 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,880 environments. And the, you know, pandemic 415 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,200 showed us that. I think what you touched on with 416 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,880 culture and really the opportunity to spread culture 417 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,640 is, is important. I would also say that the 418 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,720 importance of people being creative together and innovating 419 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,600 together and kind of taking work to that next level, seeing 420 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,000 bigger pictures. There's a fascinating study that 421 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,280 was talking about people collaborating now that we've had 422 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,840 the last couple of years, more remote people collaborating 423 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,840 together virtually versus people collaborating together in 424 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,440 person. And how many more ideas are 425 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,760 generated when people are actually in person? 426 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,480 And it had to do with their very cognitive focus on little boxes 427 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,520 on a screen. It narrows your focus and it's 428 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,960 not, it's encouraging your brain to think big picture, right? 429 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:18,120 So that may be another element or routine or ritual that we're 430 00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:20,120 going through where we say, you know, if we're really trying to 431 00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:23,200 do this off site where we're generating ideas, right, we've 432 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,720 got to think big. We're going to take the company, 433 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,720 you know, over the next year, where are we going? 434 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,200 That might be better facilitated in person, right? 435 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,040 And that might be something that we bring people together in 436 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,520 person to do versus something that is more mundane kind of 437 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:38,680 day-to-day and we can do that virtually. 438 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:45,240 Yeah, that's a a great point. And I you know, I still, I still 439 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:51,000 do think that again, everything can happen or can be built 440 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,120 remotely, but there are definitely things that are done 441 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,760 better when in person. I think for me, I, I wish that 442 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,040 companies we're even a little bit more innovative with their 443 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,840 approach to being in office. I, I'm curious if you even have 444 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,040 any anecdotes on this. But you know, when I think about 445 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,520 where companies spend their money, of course there are some 446 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,400 tax advantages to having offices and things like that. 447 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,280 So I get it. But I just, I, I guess I could 448 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,800 imagine like a better experience for people if there were, you 449 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,600 know, smaller offices in various places where there is a, you 450 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,880 know, maybe a critical mass or a larger group of, of people or 451 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,360 employees around the world. Even then we don't even have to 452 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:39,640 think about just in the, in the United States, but obviously we 453 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,800 know that companies have kind of expanded their reach since going 454 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,360 remote and it allowed them to hire more globally. 455 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,720 It allowed them to hire in places around the world that 456 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,120 they otherwise wouldn't have been able to. 457 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:54,840 So I guess my thought is like, well, rather than having these 458 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,400 gigantic HQS in different cities, of course, depending on 459 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,080 the size of the company or in your case, the client, if they 460 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,560 had almost like these flexible format type of offices. 461 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,960 Not to say that it's like a Wework or something like that 462 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,360 because of course for your purposes, you don't really have 463 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,520 a lot of ability to create what the culture or the experience is 464 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,720 like in those types of offices. But all for all intents and 465 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,760 purposes, like if they're smaller offices that allow 466 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,320 people in those areas to come and go and to use the office 467 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:32,360 when they really feel they need it, while really keeping the 468 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:34,920 priority and the focus on flexibility. 469 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,840 To me, it's kind of like getting the best of both worlds. 470 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,840 Because then teams that work in in those places could come 471 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,320 together and be in person and have all of those wonderful 472 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,760 things that you, you've talked about without a company saying, 473 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,200 oh, you have to be in on this day or five days a week and from 474 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,920 9:00 to 5:00. So I'm curious if you have 475 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,960 clients that you've worked with who have taken a bit of like a 476 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,480 hyper flexible approach in that way with their office spaces? 477 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:02,760 Yeah. You know, it's interesting. 478 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,000 HED is actually the first company I've worked for that has 479 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,320 a distributed model, So I'm kind of part in living it right now. 480 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,120 So this has been the first time on my career where we don't just 481 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,040 have a central HQ in some city that we're all working out of 482 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,000 that same location. HED actually has over 9 offices 483 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,760 across the United States. So we're from coast to coast, 484 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,120 right? So Boston all the way to 485 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:26,520 California and everything in between. 486 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,480 I'm actually in the Detroit office, as you can see behind me 487 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,160 here. So I'm in Detroit and we have a 488 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,240 large office here as well. So this opportunity to, like you 489 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,080 said, be a little bit more regional. 490 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,760 So you're pulling really great talent from these different 491 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,760 markets instead of just being in one particular city or location. 492 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,480 And so it is really interesting. You know, my leader is actually 493 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,440 in Chicago. I'm working with people all 494 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,800 across the United States. So it's fun. 495 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,560 And I think there's a flexibility just in that in the 496 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,680 sense that people are in different time zones and you're 497 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,000 negotiating that right away from the get go, right? 498 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,240 It's like, you know, some people aren't coming online until later 499 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,400 or getting off earlier. So I think that there is an 500 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,640 opportunity to do that and you can do that successfully. 501 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,920 I think again, it just comes back down to your culture and 502 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,440 your organization. And if that model works for you, 503 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,080 then I think that that can definitely be an opportunity to 504 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,360 explore something like that. If that's in the cards. 505 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,320 It may not work for every organization, but I think it's 506 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,840 something that you know, can work really successfully if 507 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,640 deployed correctly. But I think it's really 508 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,040 important that again, that connection and that ability to 509 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,040 spread that culture and have those meaningful interactions. 510 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,480 I know our leadership, you know, is frequently kind of coming 511 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,520 around and traveling to the different offices. 512 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,560 So you're having that FaceTime, which is really important as 513 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,200 well. So our offices and we're going 514 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,680 through and we've been renovating our offices are 515 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,040 really great places to work. They're very low on the private 516 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,320 offices, higher on kind of a free address Hotelling kind of 517 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,360 situation. People are kind of coming in and 518 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:05,880 going at different points of time. 519 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,880 In our office, we tend to encourage everyone to be on site 520 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,040 on a particular day. This office is Wednesdays every 521 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,080 other week. We have lunch that's brought in. 522 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,320 So, you know, team members come together and have an opportunity 523 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,400 to meet and talk and, and, you know, collaborate and, and catch 524 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,080 up with with life and everything. 525 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,600 So I think that's really important to still have that 526 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,560 that anchor right into their physical space. 527 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,000 Definitely. I like the term anchor. 528 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,200 That's a great analogy, actually, or a way to describe 529 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,000 it. I know. 530 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,720 First of all, you've spoken a lot about kind of the sentiment 531 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,480 and the feeling. And I know one of the things 532 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,560 that we had talked about originally before we started 533 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,320 recording was this concept of how decisions can be really 534 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,640 easily made on paper. Like, yeah, leaders can say, oh, 535 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,320 yeah, yeah, yeah. Like our, our teams need this 536 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,440 and like, they're going to want like a bevy machine and like all 537 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,600 this and like maybe a couch and like it'll be fine. 538 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,120 And then sometimes there's a difference between those 539 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:11,680 decisions that are made and the feeling or the sentiment that is 540 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,200 present or prevalent after the fact. 541 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,440 So can you walk us through a little bit of how you reconcile 542 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,160 those two things and make sure there's alignment? 543 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,800 Yeah, I love this. I love the conversation that we 544 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,240 had around this. And it was actually inspired by 545 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,080 one of your earlier podcasts and it was talking about the power 546 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,200 of words. And, you know, earlier in this 547 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,680 conversation today, you mentioned this idea of, you 548 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,640 know, head count and growth projections and some of these 549 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,480 elements that all of us, you know, it's, it's a necessary 550 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,920 part of our conversations, right? 551 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,920 We need to talk about how many people our offices need to 552 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,920 accommodate things like that. But sometimes, and what your 553 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,760 podcast was getting at is that sometimes these words can kind 554 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,840 of take us into the paper and and remove us from the fact that 555 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,200 these are people and, you know, they have different needs and 556 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,760 the decisions that we're making are really impactful to that 557 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,920 individual and their overall experience with our company and 558 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,160 this particular job. And, you know, we always want to 559 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,440 make sure that people have a great experience because they're 560 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,800 going to be the ambassadors for your company, right? 561 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,520 And, you know, continuing to encourage and go out and speak 562 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,280 positively about that. So I think that it's really 563 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,320 important for us to think about going off of the paper where, 564 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,400 you know, I think we're talking as an example, you know, you put 565 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,240 somebody down on a on a workstation that's on a main 566 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,560 corridor with a high circulation path. 567 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,440 There's people walking by them all day long. 568 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,960 And then you say, OK, let's have you sit in this particular chair 569 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,120 and, you know, be innovative and focus on your work and get 570 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,640 things done and be productive. And you know, it's fine on paper 571 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,880 when you're looking at this 2D floor plan to assign people to a 572 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,960 particular area. But in reality, can that person 573 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,320 really function well in their job? 574 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,560 Or they're able, You know, they say that once you lose your flow 575 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,640 state, it takes 23 minutes to get back into a state of focus, 576 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,920 right? So if this person is constantly 577 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,960 being interrupted or there's constant visual and acoustic 578 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,360 distractions in their environment and they have to do 579 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,840 a really detailed type job, you know, are they really being set 580 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,120 up for success in that that particular environment? 581 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,760 So I think that's really what we're talking about is taking a 582 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,800 step back from there, looking at the space really thoughtfully 583 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,680 and saying, you know, are there zones that we want to set up 584 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,080 where people can do different types of behaviors, right? 585 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,920 There's more of a quiet zone for focus or productivity, right? 586 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,320 There's more of that collaborative area where people 587 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,040 are getting up and ideating, moving around. 588 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,800 Because as we move around, we're kind of more in that, you know, 589 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,480 state of idea generation as well and this opportunity to really 590 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,720 connect well on the work. And so are we thinking about, 591 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,680 like you mentioned at the top of this call, this opportunity to 592 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,000 think intentionally about the spaces, right? 593 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,040 And we're thinking not just on paper and not just kind of a 594 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,000 saying, OK, Yep, we, you know, we're able to assign 100 people 595 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,840 to a desk on this floor plate. But what is that experience of 596 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,720 the people within those spaces spaces? 597 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,840 And are they really set up to be effective spaces for people to 598 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,240 do the roles that they need to do? 599 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,000 Yeah, Oh man, that's that. I feel like that's the that's 600 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,880 the winner, that's the gold. Because everything comes down to 601 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,240 how people feel. And I mean, again, this is all 602 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,480 about the human centered design approach that you and HDC take. 603 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,320 And I just think about all the opportunities that companies 604 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,880 have like fine, you're making people are making a decision to 605 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,080 bring people back to the office or maybe they never left the 606 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,760 office and that's great if it works for them and that's the 607 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,760 company direction, totally fine. There are plenty of people who 608 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,720 really, really are looking for those in office experiences 609 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,920 hybrid or full time. And I just think about how there 610 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,000 are certain things like anything that we do that are kind of 611 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,520 attributed to low hanging fruit. And to me, like creating or 612 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,200 expecting people to be in an office and then creating a space 613 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,040 that's really inspiring, encouraging, inviting, 614 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,040 collaborative that makes sense in terms of the flow and the 615 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,280 floor plan. It's one of those things that 616 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:13,760 again is low hanging fruit, like once you once you win that and 617 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,560 there's a positive sentiment and there's a feeling that generally 618 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,800 people want to be there, then everything else kind of just 619 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,360 resolves itself. So I think that is kind of, 620 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,360 again, that's the winner, that's the gold. 621 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,800 That's what everyone should be going for. 622 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,000 Right. And I think it goes beyond the 623 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,560 aesthetic, right? It's it's something where you're 624 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,720 really kind of putting pen to paper and you're using a lot of 625 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,680 this. There's a ton of academic 626 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,480 research out on the built environment and how it impacts 627 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,680 us, which I find incredibly fascinating. 628 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,680 But the environments that we're in right now, they're impacting 629 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,360 how we feel, how we think. And you had mentioned at the 630 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,640 beginning talking about this idea that you don't really think 631 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,760 about design very much. And I think when you have good 632 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,480 design, you don't think about it very much because you're just in 633 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,800 an environment in the space where you're like, I just feel 634 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,400 good being here. And there are people that we 635 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,080 interview during our discovery sessions in the work that we're 636 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,720 doing with clients and they'll be talking about different 637 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,880 offices they've been in. They're like, I just love being 638 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,600 there. Like I just walk in and I feel 639 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,040 good, right? And So what is that that 640 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,760 element? What are those, those conditions 641 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,480 that are going in that make that person feel that way, right? 642 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,040 Versus someone else who says, I just, I don't want to be there. 643 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,200 I, I don't feel my best. I get a migraine working at the 644 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,920 the, you know, the lights. All are all the lights. 645 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:31,760 It's loud. It's crazy. 646 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,440 The the desk isn't, you know, set up for me. 647 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,520 All these things that are now the things that they're thinking 648 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,480 about in their day. And when they're thinking about 649 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,960 those things, they're not thinking about their work that's 650 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,480 at hand, right? And being at their best and 651 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,640 being able to, you know, pour into their teams and pour into 652 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,120 their ideas because they're fiddling with their chair, 653 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,600 right? So how can we think about, you 654 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,280 know, elevating the environment to a point where it's really 655 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,720 supportive and it's facilitating, it's not 656 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,280 hindering, but it's really facilitating and enhancing 657 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:00,920 collaboration in some ways, right? 658 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,240 Like I was just touching that, you know, spaces where we're 659 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,280 trying to think big, these ideation rooms like huddle 660 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,159 spaces, you know, the opportunity to have a variety of 661 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:15,320 different seats choices, high tops and low, low seats, the 662 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,440 ability to get up and, you know, be tactile and draw on a board 663 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,440 versus doing things digitally. Both are very important. 664 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,760 But this opportunity of autonomy and choice, right in a space 665 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,760 allows us to just move freely around this, this environment. 666 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,840 And it's we're at our best, We actually start to get into a 667 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,520 rhythm with people, right? We're starting to to find 668 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,679 synergy and, and start to riff off one another and really start 669 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:40,560 to build something great with that momentum. 670 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,560 So, you know, how can that environment, again be able to 671 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,679 really help an organization to achieve what they're trying to 672 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,760 achieve and to kind of take them to that next level? 673 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,840 That's so awesome. I mean, I think that anyone 674 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,560 that's worked with you then has hopefully had an amazing, you 675 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,520 know, improvement on their culture too. 676 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,280 I mean, it's this is it's just a great example of how every 677 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:06,920 single thing that affects a person at work affects the 678 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:11,280 culture of a company. And it's almost like you throw 679 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,560 everything and the kitchen sink at culture. 680 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,240 You want to do everything possible to not only improve the 681 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,480 culture, but sustain a positive culture. 682 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,680 So this has been a really interesting conversation for me 683 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,920 and I'm sure for the listeners also because it's just again, 684 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,200 another lens, another perspective, another place to 685 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,000 think about the impact of culture or the influence of 686 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,320 someone's work environment on their experience at work. 687 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,360 So Sarah, thank you so much for taking us through this and what 688 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,520 you do and and how you impact cultures everyday with all of 689 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,080 your clients. So thank you again. 690 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,000 And and I'd love to give you an opportunity to share with the 691 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,800 listeners where they can find you and connect and learn more 692 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,200 about HED. And by the way, everything will 693 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,560 be LinkedIn the show notes, but it's sometimes because it's 694 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,680 helpful to hear it too. Yeah, absolutely. 695 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,000 So you can find us@heb.co, our website. 696 00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,840 We have a lot of different thought leadership pieces on the 697 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,880 website. You can learn about different 698 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,120 sectors of work that we're doing and some of the project work 699 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,840 that we've already completed, which is a really great place. 700 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,600 We also put a lot of our content out on LinkedIn, so you can find 701 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,280 myself or HEB on LinkedIn and follow us there, which would be 702 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,520 really great because we typically are putting out 703 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,640 different thought leadership pieces as well to really kind of 704 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,680 contribute to the conversation across workplace. 705 00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:33,640 Amazing. Sarah, thank you so much again 706 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,320 for your time and your insights. And if anything comes up where 707 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,600 you know, I don't know the landscape of return to office or 708 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,320 human centered design changes, let me know and we'll bring you 709 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,520 back on. We'd love to talk further, but 710 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:47,640 thank you so much again. No. 711 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,720 Problem. Thank you for having me, hey. 712 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,800 Just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show so 713 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,520 that. You are the. 1st to hear when an 714 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,120 episode drops each week and maybe leave a five star review 715 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,280 and a comment about how much you love this episode. 716 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,080 Plus if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this 717 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,720 episode, make sure you share it with them. 718 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,640 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.