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Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff and I've sent
my entire rofessional career in hour.
Each week we'll exlore the delicate balance between people
an business with the aim to reconnect the two and create
meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the
Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast.
Thank you so much for being here for another week.
You know what to do. Don't forget to write, review
and subscribe if you haven't done so already.
And this week we're talking a lot about well-being in the
workplace, but from an angle that we have not talked about
yet. And as an avid remote person,
meaning like I'm pretty big on being remote, at least having
the flexibility to do so. I think this is a very
interesting conversation that we're going to have today and
this week because we're going to talk about like returning to the
office and how we can make that experience one that's a good
experience and one that hopefully is as engaging as
possible. So it'll be interesting for us
all to flex this muscle, especially for me because I have
sworn up and down on my podcast that I never go back to the
office. However, I think if Sarah Davis,
who is my my guest this week, were in charge of what that
return to office looked like, I'd probably be less resistant.
So with that, let me introduce you to Sarah.
She is the Workplace Strategy Lead of HED, one of the largest
integrated architecture and engineering firms in the US,
serving clients nationally in a broad range of market sectors
including healthcare, higher Ed, mission critical housing and
mixed-use, pre K12 science, manufacturing and product
development, workplace, community and government.
Her sector specializes in designing workplaces that foster
creativity, collaboration, and a supportive team environment that
promotes the brand, products and services, and culture of the
client. Sarah is an analytical
strategist with 20 plus years of experience working in business
Intelligence and data-driven design.
She has been part of several high profile, award-winning
projects, including the design of Rock Venture's Detroit
headquarters, which was featured in Interior Design Magazine.
As the 2022 Best of Year winner for Medium Corporate Office,
Sarah has a depth of insight into design strategies and
styles that can impact company culture, productivity, and the
recruiting and retention of talent.
Sarah, thank you so much for joining the podcast and for
being here this week. Oh my gosh, thank you so much
for having me. What a nice introduction.
Oh yes, well, I, I always say it to every guest that like when
someone reads a, reads your bio like it's, it's really a nice
reminder of every single thing that you've accomplished.
So kudos to you. And as your bio set on to to
introduce, we'll be effectively talking a lot about well-being
in the workplace and literally speaking like how well-being can
be designed. So maybe we start off by talking
about human centered design and what that looks like both in
office and with a virtual office and, and where you're maybe even
where your expertise comes from in this regard.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I'm haven't had a really
interesting kind of career up to the point that I'm at right now.
And it's always funny when you, you know, hindsight's 2020, when
you look back on it and you see kind of the path that you've
charted, you're like, OK, this all makes a lot of sense.
I came from a very analytical background right from the get
go. So I thought I wanted to be a
lawyer. And my background is actually my
degree is in political science, which some people say I don't
quite understand the bridge here.
But I really see a lot of synergy between the work that I
was doing, really understanding kind of complex and really kind
of elevated research studies and really kind of getting into the
nitty gritty and really elevating that into something
that is a summation of that. You know, what are the signals
telling us? What is this data and
information really pointing us to?
And so that led me to a career in business intelligence where I
spent 13 years helping to really start to read those tea leaves
and those signals and information and data and
becoming an extension of different teams within an
organization to understand the context they needed to see
information in. What is their perspective?
What are they trying to drive to?
What is their vision and their objectives?
And then how can we use this information to bolster and help
them along that journey to get them there?
So the last couple of years since 2018, I've been focused on
workplace design and specifically and really the
strategy behind it. And I think to some, it may seem
like it's kind of over the top or we have to do this really big
investment or renovation. But there's so many cues within
the workplace and so many opportunities that we have that
we can really better our environments in ways that are
really, really effective and functional for people to, as you
were just mentioning, feel their best.
When people feel their best, they're going to perform their
best, right? They're going to be kind of in
an optimal state to be able to do those things that we want to
do, which is really be innovative for their company,
right? So there's so many times where
we kind of just sit back and we're kind of going through the
motions. But what's that next level of
really being able to be creative, to be inspired, and
then take that and be able to recognize that for the
organization to do better? Yeah, it's a first of all, thank
you for sharing more about your background and how you've kind
of taken a more analytical approach to something that could
kind of just be crossing things off of a list and taking again
that approach and applying a human centered focus to it.
I think even all of the times that I spent in office or on
site, however we want to phrase it, I've thought about as, since
we've, we first spoke, I thought about, well, was it abundantly
clear to me that someone came in and really thought about the
experience that someone had or would have in this environment?
And there was only one instance where I could think of.
Oh, well, I know for a fact that there was a real intentionality
behind designing and creating the office space.
And that was at one of the retailers that I used to work
for. And I was there for like 5
years. And I remember distinctly that a
couple of my colleagues had kind of been tasked with really
creating a space that was inviting and welcoming and
comfortable. And with that, they worked with
someone who, like, helped pick out the right chairs and
designed, like, where the cubicles were, where the offices
were and what they looked like. And it didn't really have so
much of an effect in my mind at the time.
I wasn't like, oh, that's really nice.
They're thinking through all these things.
But now since reflecting on what you do, I'm like, oh, actually
there's a whole strategy behind this.
So I'm curious from your perspective, when we think about
this human centered approach to design, what are some of the
things that are really important to you that you really think
about when it comes to this return?
Especially thinking through the return to office transition
where you have potentially A cohort that is fairly resistant
and has maybe even a negative perspective on being in an
office compared to what they've been doing the last number of
years. Yes, could not have framed that
up better than what you just said.
I think before the pandemic, we were all just, it was just the
expectation, right? We were all on site.
We were there full time. And so there wasn't as much
thought given to the workplace and there wasn't, I think a lot
of opinion about it as much either, right, Because it was
just what you did. And now as we've been exposed to
these different environments over the last couple of years
and the way that we're working has shifted, coming back into
the environments that may not have been even that great
before, is that much more glaringly obvious in terms of it
having an impact, possibly a negative impact on our work.
So that's why I really like when you're talking about human
centered Design, HR is one of my favorite audiences to speak to.
And I don't just say that because I'm on this podcast.
I think that the reason is that people are really at the heart
of work and the perspective that HR professionals have in that
conversation of thinking about attracting and retaining talent
and thinking about that on site experience that you mentioned.
And something really important is, you know, we have a culture.
We talk about that a lot. We talk about what it means.
We have our values and our mission, our philosophies, you
know, whatever we call them internally.
But this opportunity to then say, well, what does that
culture look like in our office, right?
What does that manifest in space?
And how do we make sure that there's not misalignment between
the two of those things? So if we say that people are at
the center of our organization, that they're our most important
asset, but then we're walking into space, that is clearly not
something that's very inspiring or thoughtful or, you know, it's
kind of your beige cubicles and, you know, no natural light and
fluorescent light and things like that.
People may say, well, maybe people aren't necessarily at
the, you know, center of your business.
So we really want to make sure that these things have alignment
and what you're talking about with your culture for especially
candidates, right? Candidates are coming in,
they're seeing on site, on your website, you know things that
you're talking about and they're thinking this is a great
organization. They have resource groups, they
have all of these celebrations and acknowledgements.
And then they come into your office.
And does the office really reflect and provide an
experience for your brand and your culture and space for that
candidate who's walking through the door or guest or visitor?
That's really helpful. It does make me think about how
you get that information. Like how do you, I mean, of
course, I'm sure that working with the client, you're
connecting on what the client's needs are and what they're
looking for, how many people they expect to have in the
office at one time, what their growth plan is and things like
that. I'm sure that that's all part of
it. But how do you gather the
sentiment from the, the like typical employee, let's say?
Is it what's reported on by the client or is it more than that?
That's part of it. Excuse me.
There's an opportunity, I think, for decision makers and HR in
particular to really think deeply about who they're
gathering information about the office from.
So as you just mentioned, surveys, getting some sentiment
from people who are actually in these spaces is really critical
and involving them in that part that processes is a really great
and critical element because they're the people who are
working and functioning in all these different niches of your
office space. You're the people that you may
be saying, you know, we want you to come back on site at, you
know, three days a week, four days full time.
So it's really important, I think to have diversity in terms
of who you're speaking with because as decision makers, if
you're saying we want everyone to come back in and you're only
relying upon the insights and the feedback of people who have
private offices, for example, the experience of someone who's
in a workstation is going to be a lot different.
And it's really important to make sure that you're gathering
information again from diverse perspectives.
And there's, you know, different ways to do that.
You can do surveys, you can do focus groups where you're
starting to bring in people from that are representatives of
different voices from different groups.
If you have a really big organization, that can be also
really powerful and effective. So there's ways to be able to
gather that information and start to understand, you know,
what are some of the challenges, what are people saying about our
environments and what are those sticking points that may be non
negotiables for people in terms of their expectations.
Whether it's around, you know, Wellness and some of the
well-being elements of the office.
Or if it's about just the fact that they can't get work done
because the office is too distracting or noisy and they
don't have that ability to focus, because then they're
going to want to default back to being in their home environment,
for instance, to be remote. That's really interesting.
I, I guess it, it does make me think.
I mean, I, I LED off the, the introduction with how much of an
avid remote worker I am and that, you know, my listeners
have heard me say probably over five times at this point in the
last, I don't know, few years that it would be very hard for
me to go back to an office. And that being remote is just
something that I really highly value above a lot.
And I know I'm not the only person that feels that way.
And I also know that realistically, there might be a
time where I am back in the office, but I might be back
begrudgingly. And they're, I'm certainly not
the only person in that with that headspace either.
And I'm a pretty optimistic person.
And there are people who are not optimistic who are begrudging
about these changes, right? So I, I share that because I,
I'm curious how there is like an approach to saying, hey, you
know, for clients of yours who say, like, you know, we're going
back to the office. If there is a part of the
strategy that you influence that relates to a flexible approach
and if that's something that you work with your clients on or if
that's kind of just like a business decision that they
decide on and you know, you effectively built like kind of
helped to design the environments around that
decision. Like where I guess the question
is where, where do some of those strategies sit?
Is it predetermined by the business or is it or by the
client or is it also influenced by the data that you get as you
are collecting all those insights?
Yeah, great question. So I think it's a little bit of
both. And the reason is that the
clients that we're servicing are coming from a myriad of
different industries. So they're serving different
functions. And I think depending on the
type of function that you're serving, it may, it may make
more sense for you to be in the office more full time versus
another role that can be facilitated a little bit more
easily remote. But I also think our clients are
looking to us for that guidance and understanding because it's
their portal of information to say, well, what are you seeing?
You know, what are your recommendations about our space?
And that's where really having this opportunity to go deep and
having that human center lens of coming in and saying, you know,
here's some discovery that we're doing about your particular
workplace, your culture. This is how we're seeing it from
the inside out. This is what we're seeing when
we come into your offices. Because sometimes when you're in
your office day in and day out, you kind of look past it, right?
You don't see some of the things that may be obvious to someone
else who's coming through the door.
So, you know, we're, we're saying and we're talking about
our culture this way and here's ways that we see your physical
environment lining up with that. And here's some ways that we may
not see it as much lining up with that.
So sometimes that outside perspective is really important,
but I think at the end of the day, it's really important for
organizations to understand the power of social connection that
we've started to lose, I think throughout the pandemic in the
last couple of years and this opportunity that the workplace
really affords to bring people together.
And so I, you know, do workplace strategy obviously for, you
know, my living, but I also see value and I work from home
sometimes as well. So I think that there's an
opportunity to think about what is the purpose of the office,
which is going to be a little bit of a different answer for
every organization. What do you need the office to
do here? What do we want people doing
when they're on site? And how can we really use this
as a tool to optimize our business, right, in a really
effective way? And so the opportunity to bring
people together socially to connect them helps them to be
even stronger when they are then working remotely because we've
created rapport, we've created a sense of belonging.
I mean, especially for people who are new to an organization
or younger, just starting out, that ability to connect with
people, have a bit of that mentorship can be really
effective in person, right? It can bring them into the
organization, create that sense of identity in that sense that,
you know, I'm valued here as opposed to being remote all the
time and maybe not having that personal touch that you have
with your team otherwise. So I think that there can be a
lot of power in being on site, especially if it's done
effectively. Yeah, that, that definitely
makes sense to me. I appreciate what you've shared.
And one of the things I was thinking about as you were
speaking is that there is a, a generational element to this
too. Like, I just can imagine that if
someone's just graduated college and they're really looking to
make friends and meet people that working remotely is, is
undesirable, even if it provides them flexibility to do things.
And then on the other side of things, like there might be
people in the same generation who really prioritize travel
over everything. And they're like, actually all I
want is remote work. And so you can certainly get
both from probably every generation or a mix of those
things from every generation. But I, I, I could definitely see
and, and at least reflect on my own career where if I, you know,
if I like, wasn't married with kids today, like would I want to
be in an office? Maybe, you know, if I, if I
really was looking for that social aspect to things.
Because something that I have really learned since being fully
remote is that it is, and predictably, it is very
difficult to build culture remotely.
Like you can do it, it just takes a lot longer.
Whereas when you're in person, having a, having a great culture
is one of those things that hopefully is inevitable for
companies that prioritize having a good culture.
And so I, I think you know, for for our purposes or for the
purposes of someone in my type of role in HR or really any
other leader who wants to create something special.
For someone, a great experience for someone, it's one of those
things where to your going back to your point, what is the
office for? And there are companies out
there who have gone back to being in person very recently,
who to me, it seems that for them, when they answer that
question, it's about productivity, that there is a
sense that their team is not as productive as they once were.
And being in office is a, is an is basically an effort to drive
better productivity. If you ask me, I think
productivity comes when you focus on experience, because the
better someone's experience is, the happier they are at work,
the more willing they are to do
a great job. Even though of course, people
can be in bad environments and still have a deep responsibility
to their work. And not everything is mutually
exclusive. But I think this is probably to
me also a call to action for companies who want to go back to
the office or eventually bring people back to the office that
they really need to think about what the right purpose is, that
sure, productivity might be your end goal, but it doesn't have to
be the why. Agreed.
You know, Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I feel like what you just touched on is, is so true.
I mean, people can be productive in a multitude of different
environments. And the, you know, pandemic
showed us that. I think what you touched on with
culture and really the opportunity to spread culture
is, is important. I would also say that the
importance of people being creative together and innovating
together and kind of taking work to that next level, seeing
bigger pictures. There's a fascinating study that
was talking about people collaborating now that we've had
the last couple of years, more remote people collaborating
together virtually versus people collaborating together in
person. And how many more ideas are
generated when people are actually in person?
And it had to do with their very cognitive focus on little boxes
on a screen. It narrows your focus and it's
not, it's encouraging your brain to think big picture, right?
So that may be another element or routine or ritual that we're
going through where we say, you know, if we're really trying to
do this off site where we're generating ideas, right, we've
got to think big. We're going to take the company,
you know, over the next year, where are we going?
That might be better facilitated in person, right?
And that might be something that we bring people together in
person to do versus something that is more mundane kind of
day-to-day and we can do that virtually.
Yeah, that's a a great point. And I you know, I still, I still
do think that again, everything can happen or can be built
remotely, but there are definitely things that are done
better when in person. I think for me, I, I wish that
companies we're even a little bit more innovative with their
approach to being in office. I, I'm curious if you even have
any anecdotes on this. But you know, when I think about
where companies spend their money, of course there are some
tax advantages to having offices and things like that.
So I get it. But I just, I, I guess I could
imagine like a better experience for people if there were, you
know, smaller offices in various places where there is a, you
know, maybe a critical mass or a larger group of, of people or
employees around the world. Even then we don't even have to
think about just in the, in the United States, but obviously we
know that companies have kind of expanded their reach since going
remote and it allowed them to hire more globally.
It allowed them to hire in places around the world that
they otherwise wouldn't have been able to.
So I guess my thought is like, well, rather than having these
gigantic HQS in different cities, of course, depending on
the size of the company or in your case, the client, if they
had almost like these flexible format type of offices.
Not to say that it's like a Wework or something like that
because of course for your purposes, you don't really have
a lot of ability to create what the culture or the experience is
like in those types of offices. But all for all intents and
purposes, like if they're smaller offices that allow
people in those areas to come and go and to use the office
when they really feel they need it, while really keeping the
priority and the focus on flexibility.
To me, it's kind of like getting the best of both worlds.
Because then teams that work in in those places could come
together and be in person and have all of those wonderful
things that you, you've talked about without a company saying,
oh, you have to be in on this day or five days a week and from
9:00 to 5:00. So I'm curious if you have
clients that you've worked with who have taken a bit of like a
hyper flexible approach in that way with their office spaces?
Yeah. You know, it's interesting.
HED is actually the first company I've worked for that has
a distributed model, So I'm kind of part in living it right now.
So this has been the first time on my career where we don't just
have a central HQ in some city that we're all working out of
that same location. HED actually has over 9 offices
across the United States. So we're from coast to coast,
right? So Boston all the way to
California and everything in between.
I'm actually in the Detroit office, as you can see behind me
here. So I'm in Detroit and we have a
large office here as well. So this opportunity to, like you
said, be a little bit more regional.
So you're pulling really great talent from these different
markets instead of just being in one particular city or location.
And so it is really interesting. You know, my leader is actually
in Chicago. I'm working with people all
across the United States. So it's fun.
And I think there's a flexibility just in that in the
sense that people are in different time zones and you're
negotiating that right away from the get go, right?
It's like, you know, some people aren't coming online until later
or getting off earlier. So I think that there is an
opportunity to do that and you can do that successfully.
I think again, it just comes back down to your culture and
your organization. And if that model works for you,
then I think that that can definitely be an opportunity to
explore something like that. If that's in the cards.
It may not work for every organization, but I think it's
something that you know, can work really successfully if
deployed correctly. But I think it's really
important that again, that connection and that ability to
spread that culture and have those meaningful interactions.
I know our leadership, you know, is frequently kind of coming
around and traveling to the different offices.
So you're having that FaceTime, which is really important as
well. So our offices and we're going
through and we've been renovating our offices are
really great places to work. They're very low on the private
offices, higher on kind of a free address Hotelling kind of
situation. People are kind of coming in and
going at different points of time.
In our office, we tend to encourage everyone to be on site
on a particular day. This office is Wednesdays every
other week. We have lunch that's brought in.
So, you know, team members come together and have an opportunity
to meet and talk and, and, you know, collaborate and, and catch
up with with life and everything.
So I think that's really important to still have that
that anchor right into their physical space.
Definitely. I like the term anchor.
That's a great analogy, actually, or a way to describe
it. I know.
First of all, you've spoken a lot about kind of the sentiment
and the feeling. And I know one of the things
that we had talked about originally before we started
recording was this concept of how decisions can be really
easily made on paper. Like, yeah, leaders can say, oh,
yeah, yeah, yeah. Like our, our teams need this
and like, they're going to want like a bevy machine and like all
this and like maybe a couch and like it'll be fine.
And then sometimes there's a difference between those
decisions that are made and the feeling or the sentiment that is
present or prevalent after the fact.
So can you walk us through a little bit of how you reconcile
those two things and make sure there's alignment?
Yeah, I love this. I love the conversation that we
had around this. And it was actually inspired by
one of your earlier podcasts and it was talking about the power
of words. And, you know, earlier in this
conversation today, you mentioned this idea of, you
know, head count and growth projections and some of these
elements that all of us, you know, it's, it's a necessary
part of our conversations, right?
We need to talk about how many people our offices need to
accommodate things like that. But sometimes, and what your
podcast was getting at is that sometimes these words can kind
of take us into the paper and and remove us from the fact that
these are people and, you know, they have different needs and
the decisions that we're making are really impactful to that
individual and their overall experience with our company and
this particular job. And, you know, we always want to
make sure that people have a great experience because they're
going to be the ambassadors for your company, right?
And, you know, continuing to encourage and go out and speak
positively about that. So I think that it's really
important for us to think about going off of the paper where,
you know, I think we're talking as an example, you know, you put
somebody down on a on a workstation that's on a main
corridor with a high circulation path.
There's people walking by them all day long.
And then you say, OK, let's have you sit in this particular chair
and, you know, be innovative and focus on your work and get
things done and be productive. And you know, it's fine on paper
when you're looking at this 2D floor plan to assign people to a
particular area. But in reality, can that person
really function well in their job?
Or they're able, You know, they say that once you lose your flow
state, it takes 23 minutes to get back into a state of focus,
right? So if this person is constantly
being interrupted or there's constant visual and acoustic
distractions in their environment and they have to do
a really detailed type job, you know, are they really being set
up for success in that that particular environment?
So I think that's really what we're talking about is taking a
step back from there, looking at the space really thoughtfully
and saying, you know, are there zones that we want to set up
where people can do different types of behaviors, right?
There's more of a quiet zone for focus or productivity, right?
There's more of that collaborative area where people
are getting up and ideating, moving around.
Because as we move around, we're kind of more in that, you know,
state of idea generation as well and this opportunity to really
connect well on the work. And so are we thinking about,
like you mentioned at the top of this call, this opportunity to
think intentionally about the spaces, right?
And we're thinking not just on paper and not just kind of a
saying, OK, Yep, we, you know, we're able to assign 100 people
to a desk on this floor plate. But what is that experience of
the people within those spaces spaces?
And are they really set up to be effective spaces for people to
do the roles that they need to do?
Yeah, Oh man, that's that. I feel like that's the that's
the winner, that's the gold. Because everything comes down to
how people feel. And I mean, again, this is all
about the human centered design approach that you and HDC take.
And I just think about all the opportunities that companies
have like fine, you're making people are making a decision to
bring people back to the office or maybe they never left the
office and that's great if it works for them and that's the
company direction, totally fine. There are plenty of people who
really, really are looking for those in office experiences
hybrid or full time. And I just think about how there
are certain things like anything that we do that are kind of
attributed to low hanging fruit. And to me, like creating or
expecting people to be in an office and then creating a space
that's really inspiring, encouraging, inviting,
collaborative that makes sense in terms of the flow and the
floor plan. It's one of those things that
again is low hanging fruit, like once you once you win that and
there's a positive sentiment and there's a feeling that generally
people want to be there, then everything else kind of just
resolves itself. So I think that is kind of,
again, that's the winner, that's the gold.
That's what everyone should be going for.
Right. And I think it goes beyond the
aesthetic, right? It's it's something where you're
really kind of putting pen to paper and you're using a lot of
this. There's a ton of academic
research out on the built environment and how it impacts
us, which I find incredibly fascinating.
But the environments that we're in right now, they're impacting
how we feel, how we think. And you had mentioned at the
beginning talking about this idea that you don't really think
about design very much. And I think when you have good
design, you don't think about it very much because you're just in
an environment in the space where you're like, I just feel
good being here. And there are people that we
interview during our discovery sessions in the work that we're
doing with clients and they'll be talking about different
offices they've been in. They're like, I just love being
there. Like I just walk in and I feel
good, right? And So what is that that
element? What are those, those conditions
that are going in that make that person feel that way, right?
Versus someone else who says, I just, I don't want to be there.
I, I don't feel my best. I get a migraine working at the
the, you know, the lights. All are all the lights.
It's loud. It's crazy.
The the desk isn't, you know, set up for me.
All these things that are now the things that they're thinking
about in their day. And when they're thinking about
those things, they're not thinking about their work that's
at hand, right? And being at their best and
being able to, you know, pour into their teams and pour into
their ideas because they're fiddling with their chair,
right? So how can we think about, you
know, elevating the environment to a point where it's really
supportive and it's facilitating, it's not
hindering, but it's really facilitating and enhancing
collaboration in some ways, right?
Like I was just touching that, you know, spaces where we're
trying to think big, these ideation rooms like huddle
spaces, you know, the opportunity to have a variety of
different seats choices, high tops and low, low seats, the
ability to get up and, you know, be tactile and draw on a board
versus doing things digitally. Both are very important.
But this opportunity of autonomy and choice, right in a space
allows us to just move freely around this, this environment.
And it's we're at our best, We actually start to get into a
rhythm with people, right? We're starting to to find
synergy and, and start to riff off one another and really start
to build something great with that momentum.
So, you know, how can that environment, again be able to
really help an organization to achieve what they're trying to
achieve and to kind of take them to that next level?
That's so awesome. I mean, I think that anyone
that's worked with you then has hopefully had an amazing, you
know, improvement on their culture too.
I mean, it's this is it's just a great example of how every
single thing that affects a person at work affects the
culture of a company. And it's almost like you throw
everything and the kitchen sink at culture.
You want to do everything possible to not only improve the
culture, but sustain a positive culture.
So this has been a really interesting conversation for me
and I'm sure for the listeners also because it's just again,
another lens, another perspective, another place to
think about the impact of culture or the influence of
someone's work environment on their experience at work.
So Sarah, thank you so much for taking us through this and what
you do and and how you impact cultures everyday with all of
your clients. So thank you again.
And and I'd love to give you an opportunity to share with the
listeners where they can find you and connect and learn more
about HED. And by the way, everything will
be LinkedIn the show notes, but it's sometimes because it's
helpful to hear it too. Yeah, absolutely.
So you can find us@heb.co, our website.
We have a lot of different thought leadership pieces on the
website. You can learn about different
sectors of work that we're doing and some of the project work
that we've already completed, which is a really great place.
We also put a lot of our content out on LinkedIn, so you can find
myself or HEB on LinkedIn and follow us there, which would be
really great because we typically are putting out
different thought leadership pieces as well to really kind of
contribute to the conversation across workplace.
Amazing. Sarah, thank you so much again
for your time and your insights. And if anything comes up where
you know, I don't know the landscape of return to office or
human centered design changes, let me know and we'll bring you
back on. We'd love to talk further, but
thank you so much again. No.
Problem. Thank you for having me, hey.
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