1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,520 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,880 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 3 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,280 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,880 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,880 and business, with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,800 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,600 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,640 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,320 back to human resources. Hello. 10 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:26,840 Everyone and welcome back to the podcast. 11 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,800 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 12 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,400 I'm really, really excited because Joshua Berry returns to 13 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,480 the podcast and Joshua has been on the podcast before, as you 14 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,600 can tell from what I've just said, but he was on the podcast 15 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,360 June in 2024 and so not so long ago. 16 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,160 But Joshua has some very exciting updates for us and we 17 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:50,520 have a lot to cover. The last time he was on it was 18 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,440 episode 183 and the episode was called Challenging Beliefs There 19 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:56,640 to be Naive featuring Joshua Berry. 20 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,880 So let me remind you who he is and then we'll jump right into 21 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,320 the episode. Joshua Berry is a world class 22 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,680 facilitator of change. As an author, speaker, 23 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,720 entrepreneur, and director of Econic, Joshua has spent the 24 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,480 last two decades evolving the what, who and why of Fortune 500 25 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:14,480 companies and venture backed startups. 26 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,280 For employees and leaders looking to grow themselves and 27 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:20,000 their organizations. Joshua speaks on overcoming 28 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,360 limiting beliefs, adaptive leadership, and the innovation 29 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,600 systems and mindsets that create engines for growth. 30 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,360 So of course, I'll link where you can find Joshua and iconic 31 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,760 and all of that fabulous information that you might need 32 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,400 in order to connect. But in the meantime, Joshua, 33 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,760 welcome back. Thanks so much for for being 34 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,000 able to join and being open to rejoin. 35 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,600 So glad to have you back. Happy New Year, Tracy with you 36 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,400 too. Amazing. 37 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,160 Well, I don't wanna, I don't wanna share the big news, but 38 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,320 you do have some big news for the. 39 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,280 Listeners, absolutely. So the last time I was with you, 40 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:01,400 Tracy, you helped poke some ideas and we got into thinking 41 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,040 about words and the meaning of words, and we could talk about 42 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,160 those later. But that kind of snowballed into 43 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:14,320 a Ted talk that I was hoping to get chosen for eventually got 44 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,680 chosen for that. And I delivered that Ted talk to 45 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,480 a full audience in Omaha, NE in November of 2024. 46 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,440 And in that talk should be released soon, But it has big 47 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,640 implications for truly bringing the human back into human 48 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:34,640 resources and artificial intelligence and a bunch of 49 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:37,040 other things we can get into. But I really just wanted to come 50 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,720 back to say thank you, Tracy, for poking and dislodging 51 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:45,440 something in my brain, in my heart that turned into what what 52 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,600 hopefully people will see as a provocative idea that's worth 53 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,680 spreading. Oh, my gosh, First of all, you 54 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,480 owe me no thanks. But I will say you're welcome 55 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,760 because I was raised not to be rude. 56 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,720 When someone says thank you, you say you're welcome. 57 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:03,920 No, I, you really, you know, I make joke make I'm making light 58 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:05,720 of this, but you really don't owe me anything. 59 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,400 It was such a pleasure having you on. 60 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,760 It's why I'm so excited that you're back. 61 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,440 And I'm really excited for you. I mean, a Ted Talk is kind of 62 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,560 like, that's the thing, Like that's if, you know, if we're 63 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,240 not doing anything else, like we should probably want to have a 64 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:23,640 Ted Talk at some point in our lives. 65 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:25,400 And you've done it. That's so amazing. 66 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,920 I can't wait for it to come out. Thank you. 67 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:32,920 It definitely was on the bucket list and it was something that 68 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,400 at the beginning of the year, I, I truly set forward a couple of 69 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,320 ideas and goals. And so the fact that that was 70 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,720 able to happen, I'm excited and we'll see how it's received 71 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,240 right. That's, that's always the thing. 72 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:44,200 So. Totally. 73 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,400 Well, knowing you now for the better part of what is that 74 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,280 about Cigna? 8 months now, no more than that, 75 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,080 maybe nine months, considering we spoke before we recorded, I 76 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,040 think that it will be received very well. 77 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,360 And you know, something that I really appreciate about what you 78 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:05,480 do and what you bring also to to this audience is that you 79 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,360 emphasize the importance of things that matter. 80 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,760 Like we're talking like words, for example. 81 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:17,959 And sometimes people, I think undervalue the value of words or 82 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,680 you know what, what we can do with the things that we say or 83 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,640 how we say them. I mean, I'm asked, for example, 84 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,000 all the time about bringing the human back to human resources 85 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,280 where that came from. And it's like, well, it, it's 86 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:33,560 in, it's in the name, right? So when we think about the power 87 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:38,520 of words and, you know, coming back to also just what you stand 88 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,000 for and what you've done, I mean, can you take us through or 89 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,720 like, can you give us a slight preview into the Ted Talk what 90 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,080 that was about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 91 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:55,080 My pleasure, you know it, it came from the realization that, 92 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,680 as you said, we use a lot of words without even thinking 93 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,760 about them or more importantly, truly understanding the 94 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,560 implications that they have. You know, I earlier in my 95 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,440 career, I LED sales and marketing teams and we would 96 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,880 constantly be talking about our prospects and our leads and how 97 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,360 to put people in a better funnel. 98 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:21,640 And often times we're talking about listeners like those to 99 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,480 your podcast, right? Like who actually wants to be 100 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,640 put into a funnel or to be prospected or targeted or any of 101 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,960 those things. And yet those are words we just, 102 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,560 we just throw out. And what I explore in the talk 103 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,640 is that unfortunately, just copying and pasting those words 104 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,600 that were used before us, we sometimes start to rationalize 105 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,040 behavior that we wouldn't normally take if the person was 106 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,240 sitting right on the other side of the screen like you are to 107 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,800 me, Tracy, right? And that extends into human 108 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,160 resources, right? When we start to think about 109 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:02,040 head count as just a number or people as an expense to be 110 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,440 controlled or others, we start to dehumanize. 111 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:12,160 And truly, dehumanization is one of the first steps towards even 112 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,040 worse actions that that can come from that. 113 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,280 So I get into all of that in my Ted talk in a nice little bite 114 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:23,440 sized 10 minute entertaining. Wow, well, my next question 115 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:25,840 would be how do you do that in 10 minutes? 116 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,760 I mean, but it's the power of words. 117 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,480 I mean, that's so amazing and it's really powerful. 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,400 You're right. When, when like I'm thinking 119 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,560 about, first of all, let me take a step back because I, I'm, I'm 120 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,200 about to ramble if I don't. When I think about one of the 121 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,400 main functions within HR, especially when you're starting 122 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,960 to work on strategy and things like you are analyzing people. 123 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,480 And when you're analyzing people, you eventually get to a 124 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,800 place where you're analyzing people as numbers to your point. 125 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,920 And the bigger the company, the easier it is to remove yourself 126 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,680 from what that number represents, who that number 127 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:10,160 represents and who that person actually is. 128 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:15,360 And so when you talk about dehumanizing, it is it is so 129 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,120 real. And you know, The thing is, it's 130 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,600 so beyond just business, like when anyone or anything is 131 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,440 dehumanized, I mean, that's, it's kind of like the breakdown 132 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,600 for everything, right? So when we keep the focus on the 133 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,160 human and we do our, because of course it's unrealistic to 134 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,040 think, Oh, well, we're going to look at every single person as a 135 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,320 human when we're analyzing big things, sure, fine, no problem. 136 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,760 But it's like when you're, I think the most important point 137 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,560 in all of that when, when a company is analyzing people is 138 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,920 once you come to the point where you're making a decision about 139 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,080 those people that you reframe it, it's like, OK, you have 140 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,760 10,000 people that you are going to lay off. 141 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,480 Well, who are those 10,000 people? 142 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,120 Who are they made-up of? You know, like what, what 143 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,760 comprises that group of people? Do they have children? 144 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,080 Are they on the benefits? Like what kind of resources are 145 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:12,920 they going to need, you know, so. 146 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,920 What you're hitting on is, is I'm not saying like remove all 147 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,840 of that language. What I, what I advocate for is 148 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,400 just being more intentional about the language that we're 149 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:34,120 using and, and not just using unconscious words because a 150 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:39,120 mentor of mine, Ari once told me that that words are just a 151 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,679 symptom of our conscious or unconscious beliefs, right. 152 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,880 And, and often times when we when we throw out those words 153 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,520 like you said, what we got a layout, we got a right size, we 154 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,960 got a streamline, the. Buzzwords. 155 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,680 Any of those sorts of things that may be true and it may 156 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:00,600 actually be necessary for a healthy organization going 157 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:07,640 forward, let's say. And yet maybe those words are 158 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,760 actually representative of some underlying unconscious or 159 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,240 unspoken belief about the replaceability of people within 160 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,800 a system that you're working in. OK, I at least want people to be 161 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,160 cognizant of that. It'll even be intentional that. 162 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,960 OK, that's what I think. And then back to what we talked 163 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,200 about in episode 183, there are things you gain and there are 164 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,920 things you lose by holding that particular belief. 165 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,120 And so I just want people to wake up a little bit more to the 166 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,200 consciousness of that, especially in today's day and 167 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:46,000 age with artificial intelligence and, and the power that our 168 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,680 words have on shaping our future through AI. 169 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,760 Oh my gosh, yes. And actually, when I think about 170 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:00,080 AI and words, my initial thought, and this is probably 171 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,680 just because I just bought a minivan and it came up and I, I 172 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:05,640 promise you I'm going to make the connection. 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:07,760 I'm really excited about the minivan, by the way, even though 174 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,880 I'm so much cooler than what a minivan necessarily like. 175 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:19,680 Portrays I'm, so I. Really am like I am really 176 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:22,600 changing the game for minivans. I'm just saying if Toyota wants 177 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,400 to sponsor me, I got the Sienna. I'm so excited. 178 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,680 I'm going to make the connection here in a moment when when I 179 00:10:29,680 --> 00:10:33,120 think about AI, my first thought because of my experience buying 180 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:39,320 the minivan is the what we ask AI, if we're using generative 181 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,760 like, you know, language with like, let's say Chachi BT. 182 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,320 And I think about that because it's kind of a perfect example 183 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:54,920 of like what you give to AI can sometimes be what you receive. 184 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,960 It's not necessarily thinking beyond the scope of what you 185 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,000 might mean, what your context might be, right. 186 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:05,120 And so I share the mini ven anecdote because when my husband 187 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,440 and I were going to buy it, they were like, and you know, 188 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:13,560 according to Google, this is like the percent above MSRP that 189 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:15,960 it should be like above MSRP for a minivan. 190 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,000 And no offense minivans, but I love you. 191 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:27,600 And the question was how much of what percentage above MSRP is 192 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,560 the Toyota Sienna or the minivan? 193 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,280 I'm like, well, of course that's going to tell you a percent 194 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,320 above MSRP because you're asking it to tell you the percent if 195 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,600 you ask what the average price of a Toyota like that might not 196 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,680 be above MSRP. So this is a very, very nuanced 197 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:50,640 example, but that's the way I take kind of what you're saying 198 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,600 in terms of like how we think about nuance and language when 199 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,800 it is related to AI and that might not be your intention. 200 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,720 But no, no, no, it's exactly a flavor of my intention in that, 201 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,280 as you said, large language models that power tools like 202 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:13,680 ChatGPT or Anthropics Clod or Microsoft Copilot, etcetera, are 203 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:20,760 all built on studying and ingesting and training on 204 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,920 immense amounts of data and text and images and music and 205 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:32,440 everything that can go into it. And in a response to your 206 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:39,360 prompt, which you very much have control over, the agent will do 207 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,120 its best to be able to predict what the right response should 208 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,840 be to what you're saying. But it's all based upon previous 209 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,160 patterns that it's seen in the training data. 210 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,200 And so you're right, if they've asked 1000 times what percent 211 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:00,280 above MSRP is this van the thousandth and first time is 212 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,680 likely going to give that back. And that's my intent of marrying 213 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:08,480 this being conscious about your words, especially in human 214 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,360 resources and AI, because as publicly available sources of 215 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:20,240 training data are exhausted, companies are routinely turning 216 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,040 more and more towards private or at least once and gated sources 217 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,320 of information for for training their models. 218 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,520 And so when you start to think about the last ways that you 219 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:38,520 described people in your emails or Microsoft Teams messages or 220 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:43,080 blog posts or other things, and there's a million examples of 221 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,560 treating people like a resource in, in those previous ones, like 222 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,720 what do we expect AI is going to predict the value of people is 223 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,400 beyond that. And so I, I think we're, we're 224 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,680 at a, we're at a very interesting inflection point 225 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:05,000 where we can start to shift the narrative even of what 226 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,600 generative AI thinks about people, right, and their value 227 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,160 based upon the conscious word choice that we have. 228 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:18,800 Yeah, Oh, this is really important because everyone, of 229 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,880 course, rightfully so, is talking about AI. 230 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,760 And AI will continue to be a part of the conversation 231 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,160 naturally, because it's our future, it's our present. 232 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,040 It's just, you know, what is important in today's day and 233 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,880 age, but how we use it and having a better understanding 234 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:44,040 of, I guess just generally like how we can best use it, what the 235 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,560 best use case is, makes a lot of sense. 236 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,440 Yes, absolutely. And I'm very much a pro AI and, 237 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:58,360 and being intentional in its use case and just being, as I said, 238 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,720 even before, whether we had AI or not, being a little bit more 239 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,920 aware of the types of word choices that we're using and the 240 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,880 implications that they have and how those choices impact our 241 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,480 actions and behaviors. Yeah, no, it makes sense. 242 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:17,520 I was just talking to someone in HR who, you know, I was. 243 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,760 I kind of said like, Hey, what do you, what do you think about 244 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,160 this fear that people have with like AI taking their jobs 245 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:28,760 basically? And this was not in the 246 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,600 recording. It was like an intro call 247 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,480 because I'd like to, you know, see what I can get out of 248 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,520 people, you know, because these are some, these are the 249 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,960 questions that people have. And she was like, oh, well, it's 250 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,080 totally true. AI is going to replace jobs. 251 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,440 And this is like, you know, ahead of people. 252 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,840 And I was like, oh, like I was kind of taken aback because part 253 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,600 of me like, you know, I get it. Of course there are jobs that 254 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,880 are at risk. And then the other part of me is 255 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:04,840 like, well, how do we see AI as a resource to better fulfill our 256 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,760 jobs so that we're not as much at risk? 257 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,120 But that is not something that you can cover in a 10 minute 258 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,840 conversation. And so I wonder like, you know, 259 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,920 from your perspective and how, you know, I guess really 260 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,960 relating it to being very cognizant of what we say and how 261 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,880 we say it, especially in HR. How would you answer? 262 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:25,880 I'm putting you in the hot seat here. 263 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,040 I'm so sorry, but how would you like answer that? 264 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,760 If someone's like, you know, I'm really worried that AI is going 265 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,360 to take my job. I'm an HR admin, I'm an HR 266 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,080 manager, I'm an HR whatever. And I'm really worried that AI 267 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,960 is going to take over my job. Maybe it's someone in 268 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,760 recruiting. What do I do to how do I, how do 269 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,520 I navigate using AI without putting myself in a position 270 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,880 where it's doing my job instead of me doing my job with AI? 271 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,760 You know, like, is there a way that we answer that? 272 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,760 Or maybe it's on the other side of things where like, how do 273 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,960 you, what would you say to an HR person who's like an HR leader 274 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,119 who's confronted with that and has to navigate answering that 275 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,079 question? Like either perspective, I'd 276 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,280 love to hear. So the first thing that comes to 277 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:18,640 mind is, is I believe you called out in some of your 2025 HR 278 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,000 trends the need for adaptability, for evolving, for 279 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,599 continuous skill development. I think that all very much 280 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:33,800 applies here because the the individual or the leader who's 281 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:38,080 thinking about application of HR and their workflows or or job 282 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,840 tasks for their people, just like digging in your heels and 283 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,760 resisting likely isn't going to work. 284 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,360 The better approach is to start to understand, OK, what are some 285 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:56,840 of the ways that if I had, this is I think the best descriptor. 286 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:03,080 Somebody said, if I had infinite interns at my disposal, what 287 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:07,400 would I be able to do? And, and, and, and because at 288 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,880 least for now, like some of the abilities are around that level. 289 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,720 And, and so you, you need to think about that's a fabulous 290 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,680 example, things on a different level of scale. 291 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,800 And so if you were basing let's you to your HR admin role, like 292 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,840 if you were basing your job value on the ability to know all 293 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,800 of the policies and how to implement them and how to 294 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:38,080 adjudicate them and and being a resource, know how person that 295 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,080 that is something that could probably be replaced eventually, 296 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,800 probably not the relational side of things. 297 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,880 But even there, I'll start to challenge that some younger 298 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,920 generations would actually probably prefer to interface 299 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,680 with a non person for some of that information. 300 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,800 And so you, you are left with thinking what what are the 301 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,000 additional skills or other things that could continue to 302 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,760 add value around that? Because if it's just information 303 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:09,400 retrieval or analysis, that may not be as as helpful going 304 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,960 forward. And so a simple way to also 305 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:17,400 answer this is just start experimenting, find ways that 306 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,080 are either corporately responsible, if you, if you can, 307 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:25,320 or off on the side on your own personal things to at least 308 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,960 start to practice with some of these tools so that you can have 309 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,360 a better understanding of what they're capable of and, and 310 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,400 practice that curiosity. And, and yeah, consider the, the 311 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,440 thought exercise. If I had infinite interns, what 312 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,800 might I be capable of? I love that so much and it's 313 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,200 really true. As a former intern myself, that 314 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,440 is exactly where Chachi like AI is. 315 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,400 I shouldn't just say Chachi BTU. It's really any AI tool that 316 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,120 we're using because I guess depending I think of these, what 317 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:00,720 is the phrase? It's not generative. 318 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,440 I guess it is generative AI, right. 319 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:03,400 With that's what I'm thinking of. 320 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,560 Yeah. So with any generative AI tool 321 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,920 that I have used, and I've used a few, anything that I kind of. 322 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,240 Put in it is kind of you know, it's a little sophomoric it's 323 00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:19,080 it's coming it's delivering information based on, you know, 324 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,200 a limited or certain amount of data and with limited experience 325 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,720 so far. And I can only imagine once 326 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,800 generative AI turns 30, you know, how how much more or maybe 327 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,960 even 40 or 50 or 60, like how much more it will be able to do. 328 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,560 And then when you were sharing about, you know, not resisting 329 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,880 so much. I'm really basically embracing 330 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,520 this technology. It makes me think about the 331 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,160 phrase keep your, keep your friends close, keep your enemies 332 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,480 closer. Because even though I don't 333 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,640 believe that AI is the enemy at all, I really don't, I say that 334 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,360 to be very tongue in cheek. It's kind of like this, this 335 00:20:55,360 --> 00:21:00,480 idea that you, you could find yourself in a position where 336 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:06,480 technology could do the a certain job. 337 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,320 I don't think that it's going to be able to do like at least with 338 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,280 an HR, especially from the relationship side. 339 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,560 That's still a very important part of what we do is build and 340 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,640 maintain those relationships. And so it's like, well, if it's 341 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,600 doing all these other things that actually help us to 342 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,120 repurpose our time that was once spent doing heavily 343 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:29,680 administrative things. It's kind of like you're keeping 344 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,480 it closer. Once you embrace it, it's not 345 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,800 this thing that you have to work against anymore. 346 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,320 It's this thing that you're working with and that's 347 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,240 empowering you, enabling you hopefully and your job to do 348 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,600 more, to upskill, to adapt. I appreciate that you reference 349 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,040 the 2025 HR Trends episode because that's kind of what I'm 350 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,360 hoping to invoke throughout the rest of this year is that like 351 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,280 AI doesn't have to be the enemy. It's something that we really 352 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,800 can kind of leverage. It's, you know, it's a tool at 353 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,280 the end of the day. Yeah. 354 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,560 You know, we so our core business is custom training and 355 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,960 development programming, whether it's leadership development 356 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:14,080 programming to certain specific skills or behaviors. 357 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:20,960 We use it quite often to help make us better facilitators and 358 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,120 curriculum designers and and experienced people. 359 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,480 So if you start to think about it as a tool of not just go find 360 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,920 this for me or research this for me, but instead, here's here's 361 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,920 an outline for an experience. Why won't this work right? 362 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,280 Or you start using it in a coaching challenging make me 363 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,080 better sort of way. I think you can unlock then a 364 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,400 whole nother level of potential value out of a tool like that. 365 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,760 Here's here's, here's even a, a silly, maybe it's a meta example 366 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,000 of this is if you're the HR admin and you had your job 367 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,840 description, you could put it into one of these tools and say 368 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,080 which of these tasks are most likely to be taken over by AI in 369 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,240 the future and why? And then teach me why. 370 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:12,440 And then what are some things I could do? 371 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,160 Like use the tool for itself, right? 372 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,120 Yes, I think that's great advice and I really like what you 373 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,560 shared in terms of this idea around brainstorming. 374 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,320 Like you don't need to tap the shoulder of your Co worker when 375 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,280 you've got an AI brain readily available to you, you know, and 376 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,520 to think about like asking it, well, what wouldn't work about 377 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,160 this? What am I missing? 378 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,440 What what are my blind spots? I mean, I think of so many use 379 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,560 cases for that. And as I always share on the 380 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,400 podcast that, you know, I'm the first to admit that I move 381 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,920 really fast, most of the time too fast. 382 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,360 I like don't always like notice like the fine details because 383 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,240 I'm moving so fast and like, you know, execution, execution, 384 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:02,360 execution. And I find like IAI generative 385 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,520 AI and I tend to use Chachi PT the most. 386 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,760 I find it to be extremely helpful to be aware of my blind 387 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,000 spots. Like what, what question am I 388 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,080 not asking? What, what am I missing about 389 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,680 this like really important topic and whether it's for my podcast 390 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,280 or for work. I mean, it's, it just tends to 391 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,720 be to me like an additional brain, something that will allow 392 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,600 me to think more or more deeply about something that I otherwise 393 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,560 would probably miss unless I ask someone else and hopefully they 394 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,520 wouldn't miss it. Yeah, yeah. 395 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,400 Yes, great topic. We can keep digging into this 396 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,360 and again, how it all ties back to that Ted talk. 397 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:53,320 I think that we can use and leverage the power of AI to also 398 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:58,320 bring more human back into human resources in the workplace 399 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:05,200 because our intentional usage each time, hopefully, each time, 400 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,600 hopefully a transcript from your podcast is getting put in the 401 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,640 training data. I hope it's getting smarter and 402 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,680 more more pro human. I hope all the thoughts. 403 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,800 That would be kind of cool. Yeah, I hope. 404 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,080 And actually, it makes me think of another question for you 405 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,800 here, which is, you know, when you think about AI and the 406 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,800 human, you know, let's say humanizing work more, humanizing 407 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,400 the workplace more. Are there strategies that maybe 408 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,360 people who struggle with this, like people who really tend to 409 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:42,520 lose sight of the human element? Are there strategies that you 410 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,040 would advise they take or follow when it comes to using AI in 411 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,760 order to ensure that they're not inadvertently dehumanizing? 412 00:25:50,400 --> 00:26:01,400 Yeah, I, I think that one can be more how you are using it for 413 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,960 coaching, right? Just being conscious about the 414 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,240 questions that you're asking and, and why, right. 415 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,000 And, and so back to the idea of not putting in anything that you 416 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,560 wouldn't want to see on the front page of the newspaper, 417 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,360 just being cognizant of, of that and how a lot of that data is 418 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,840 being used. We, we were, we were doing a 419 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,760 workshop on adaptive leadership at one of the big companies out 420 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,120 there that also has an AI product that may sit by your 421 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:37,320 side, we'll just call it that. And they too were thinking about 422 00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,360 and saying like we, we believe that Big Brother is always 423 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,280 watching our stuff that we're putting into here because we, we 424 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,440 are the makers of this, of this tool. 425 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,560 And so I think just being conscious about that can maybe 426 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,560 keep some of it into check, especially because you have a, 427 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,320 you have another lens that your words might actually be 428 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,320 perpetuating a different world in the future that could have 429 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,640 ramifications beyond what you thought. 430 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:08,000 And then the other is maybe a very practical use of how you 431 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,840 can start to humanize your work a little bit more is to ask 432 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,960 whatever AI tool you're using, things like here's the e-mail 433 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,920 I'm about to send. How might this be received by 434 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:28,800 someone or ask empathy driven questions to give you feedback, 435 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,480 right. And, and I've this has helped 436 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,320 me, I'm sure send out some emails that were landed a lot 437 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,840 better than than the one. So you know, you know the old 438 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,760 thing in the past of like, write your e-mail if you're mad and 439 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,200 then delete it, or write your e-mail if you're mad and then 440 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,320 leave it in your drafts for 24 hours or exactly. 441 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,160 Yep. You could potentially also do 442 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,520 that here and say like, this is what I'm going to send. 443 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,520 How might this be received? Help me come up with a more 444 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,240 empathetic way to share this through AB or C. 445 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,240 Should I even send this e-mail? Right? 446 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 Like, there's different ways that you can, if you think about 447 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,280 it from a coaching standpoint. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. 448 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,080 The other piece, I don't know if you use this, but there is the 449 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,920 setting for instance. I also use ChatGPT as as my 450 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,440 primary one. There's a setting where you can 451 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,480 have almost like the master prompts in your settings and you 452 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,720 can put in specific things like you could actually say if I am 453 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:29,920 referring to people in a dehumanizing way, call me out on 454 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,400 it and you can put some of those master prompts in there. 455 00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:37,480 Oh, you. You're not. 456 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,760 Maybe you're not using this. Hey, well, we need to we, we 457 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,680 need to teach you. I know. 458 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,440 I feel like I know what you're talking about and I've probably 459 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,080 ignored it. That's OK. 460 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,280 If you go into, tell me. If you go into, I probably can't 461 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,160 screen share, can I? But when I'm in chat, actually, 462 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,360 can I? Can I? 463 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,880 Let's see. Yeah, I think you can. 464 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:59,800 Do you see share and then screen? 465 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,280 Do. But now we're in it all. 466 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,520 We're in the thick of it. And you're gonna see it. 467 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,680 All of my. For those who are watching a 468 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,120 video, they're gonna really be in for it now. 469 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,200 And now you're gonna see all my search terms. 470 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,320 I don't even see what I have. That's really funny. 471 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:20,480 When I am over in the right here and I go into customize ChatGPT, 472 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:26,280 I can start to see things like what what should it call me? 473 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:31,120 What traits so I put treat me as an expert, consider new 474 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:36,000 technologies, no moral lectures like list URLs. 475 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,040 At the end of your response, you can add a number of these things 476 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:45,800 in here to help you. So in there you could put 477 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:50,400 something like, if ever I am sounding dehumanizing, like call 478 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,560 me out on it. Oh my gosh. 479 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:56,400 Well, listen, I first of all, I learned something new today. 480 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,600 Thank you. I can officially go home. 481 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,480 The day is over. You're not home or any Tracy. 482 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,080 Yeah. I'm home, I'm home. 483 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,800 I can just close my laptop and be done. 484 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,720 Thank you for that. Secondly, I think you probably 485 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,480 taught a lot of people something new today. 486 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,400 So thank you for that. That's, I mean, first of all, 487 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,840 everyone learned hopefully something new before you shared 488 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:21,480 your screen, but now after really being able to see how we 489 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,680 can make this technology work for us in the best possible 490 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,000 humanly possible way. I mean, that's really cool. 491 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,760 Thank you for sharing that. You're welcome. 492 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,240 Amazing. Well, I don't know any better 493 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,040 way to leave this episode and conclude, but I all I know is 494 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,280 that I want to congratulate you again on your Ted talk. 495 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,480 I can't wait for it to come out. Hopefully it'll be out by the 496 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,120 time this episode is. Otherwise, we will you. 497 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,200 We will keep all of the listeners totally, totally 498 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,200 informed and we'll get it shared in the newsletter once it's out. 499 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,480 I'm just so excited for you. I can't think of anyone better 500 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,760 to do a Ted Talk and any better topic. 501 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,120 I think it's awesome. That's sweet, and thank you so 502 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,240 much, Tracy. I appreciate your curiosity and 503 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,080 obviously for showing up every week and putting out great 504 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,440 content like this to keep bringing even more humanity back 505 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,280 into the workplace. So thank you for your work. 506 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,160 Oh my gosh, thank you so much. It is truly my pleasure. 507 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,040 And with that, I will remind everyone that Joshua's links and 508 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,600 everything that you might need in order to connect or learn 509 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,720 more about Iconic or Joshua in general are in the show notes. 510 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,560 So please click along and don't forget to rate, review and 511 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,760 subscribe. Joshua, thank you so much again. 512 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,800 Second episode in the books that just means you have to come 513 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,600 back. #3 there's a special jacket, some swag. 514 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,000 Exactly. Ooh, that'll be fine. 515 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,800 Don't tell me with a good time. I love swag. 516 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,080 Amazing. Thank you so much. 517 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:49,520 Thanks, Tracy. Hey. 518 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,560 Just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show so 519 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,000 that. You are the 1st to hear. 520 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,480 When an episode drops each week and maybe leave a five star 521 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,080 review and a comment about how much you love this episode. 522 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,880 Plus, if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this 523 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:04,480 episode, make sure you share it with them. 524 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,440 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.