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Welcome to the Bringing the human back to human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've
spent my entire professional career in HR.
Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people
and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create
meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to Human Resources. Hello everyone.
Welcome back to Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources,
the podcast where hopefully you are getting a lot of new
information, maybe some insights, maybe you feel
validated, maybe you're like, I totally disagree with everything
they've just said. Either way, hopefully you're
getting something out of it. And the beauty is that we have
so many amazing guests that come on the show, including my guest
for this week, who is James Warren, and I think we're going
to have a lot of fun. That's just my prediction for
this episode, and I don't think I'm wrong.
So let me tell you a little bit about James.
He is the founder and CEO of Share More Stories, a human
experience insights company. The company's primary offering
is the Seek platform, which helps organizations and brands
uncover the emotional drivers behind employee and customer
experiences. James is a researcher,
strategist, writer, and facilitator who blends
storytelling, AI, and insights to help companies better
understand themselves, their customers, and their
communities. With nearly 30 years of
experience and marketing insights, strategy, and
innovation, he is passionate about the intersections of
humanity, technology, brands, communities, and culture.
An active community leader, he volunteers on several boards,
and he also studied economics and literature at Princeton and
creative writing at Columbia. Originally from New York,
although I am from New Jersey, very actually quite close to
Princeton, but still, I'm a New Yorker now.
So woo woo. James now calls Richmond home.
And you know what? We've talked a lot about traffic
and parking and all of that. And honestly, I can understand
why. James, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for our
conversation today. Yes, same here.
Same here. And especially since you are,
you know, a storyteller and this is such a huge part of, you
know, what you do. I'm really excited to hear your
own stories. And maybe the 1st is how you
ended up finding yourself in this type of industry, in this
type of career and where kind of your passion around the subject
started? Yeah.
I mean, it's a great question. I think when I was little I was
always into stories and storytelling and I've loved
writing my whole life. And you know, those two things
from a creative and expressive standpoint have been really a
big part of me since I was since I was young.
Also, I always wanted to start my own business.
So those two things, as disparate as they are, were two
very long term guiding motivations for me.
And when I had an opportunity to transition from corporate career
to entrepreneurship, I took it. I was like, OK, this is the
time. And if I don't do it now, I'll
probably never do it and I'll regret it.
And so I've tried like when I was younger, I started
businesses as a kid. I started a business in high
school and this was the one that finally took and, and really
stuck. Because I think for me
personally, coming out of brand management and business
development, I could see both good, good uses of storytelling,
but also not so useful uses of storytelling.
And I really sensed that we were at a place where deeper
connection, deeper human understanding, this sort of move
towards experiences both inside the organization and in the
marketplace. Like those things were really
starting to pick up speed, you know, 10-15 years ago.
And now I think they're at a place where we can make a
difference, helping especially leaders in companies and
organizations listen differently and then act in a more impactful
way. So yeah, that's why I'm here.
I love it and, you know, it's it.
I'm just reflecting now on your academic accolades.
I mean, studying economics and literature at Princeton.
It kind of is a way of saying without saying that you use both
sides of your brain. Exactly right.
You know, it's like usually you get like one or the other.
You know, you get like someone who's like, really into
economics and numbers and math and stats, and then you have
someone who's into literature and creative writing, which you
studied at Columbia and all these other things.
But you're like, no, I want to do both because I can.
I wonder how much because I, you know, you get to a point where
you have a good sense of your own capabilities, but you still
never really know all of it. So you got to have people hold
up a mirror. And my teammate Andy, he's our
chief technology officer, and he's almost the opposite.
Like he is such a analytical thinker, a quantitative thinker.
He programs, he writes code and he also is his undergraduate was
in psychology, you know, so he's coming at it from the slight the
other way where he's definitely this person with a little bit of
the other side of his brain. And the funny part is as much as
he, he sees the world in code and shapes, like literally, he
also is a brilliant storyteller on his own and he doesn't think
of himself that way, which is hilarious.
Like stories. Then I'll listen to like the
stories and I'm like, OK, Andy. You're like, you're so good at
this, Andy. What's what's going on here?
What do you mean us stories? Wow, no, that's amazing.
I, I, I like what you said around, you know, we don't know.
Sometimes it, it effectively like takes us a little bit of
time to figure out what we, what our true capabilities are.
And I had a, a guest on recently, Scott Schickler, who
said that, you know, if you tell a group of people to raise their
hands as high as they can raise them and then you tell them, OK,
try a little bit more. Like 9 times out of 10,
basically I'm doing a really poor job of quoting him.
Nine times out of 10, people are able to lift their arms higher.
And that like really resonated with me because, you know,
sometimes and we see this like just in human nature in general
that there is this like nature versus nurture component.
I think that people who have these like really solid home
lives and they don't have any like housing or food
instability. I'm taking this like to a
totally different direction, I realize, but you know, like all
of this, right? Like they don't necessarily like
unless someone's saying to them, you can do so much more like,
oh, you're really good at math. Like why not go into the science
is why not go into the math like you could, you could do so much.
These are all the things, all the careers that you can go down
or you're a really good speaker. Maybe you should think about a
career in marketing communications are really
anything. And I often think about that,
that if unless we really have the right support system, we
don't necessarily know from a young age just how much we can
do. And that does also then take me
to like what happens to that person in business when they are
what they're, they're in a place where they believe they're at
their Max capability when maybe they're at 50%, they just don't
know it, but they're at their, you know, quote UN quote, Max
capability. And they have a leader who sees
in them so much more or they have a leader who sees in them
so much less, right? Like, you could go either way,
but it's just like, it's really kind of fascinating when you
think about how much of our childhood can actually really
play a role in our careers. Absolutely.
I mean, I think what you're hitting on, I love this, like
revealing some of the hidden truths about ourselves.
And I think that's true for the individual.
I think it's true for the organization because the hidden
truths are exactly as you say, they're things about ourselves
that maybe we're not recognizing or remembering or realizing can
be for any number of reasons from I got too comfortable to it
was dramatizing or, or some combination.
And one of the things that happens when when we bring
people into our platform or when we used to like facilitate
sessions and we're asking them to explore a story, it's
typically not a surface story. It's very foundational to their
belief system or how they work. So they'll ask questions like
tell me about the most memorable experience you've had with X
because that gives them a chance to go high or low, positive or
negative, but like what's really sticking with you?
And then we'd like just gently step them in.
The next thing, you know, they're like, wow, I had no idea
that this event or experience was staying with me this way, or
I had no idea that I felt this way about these things because
of this experience. So they will start like their
own discovery, their own insight into themselves, just
participating. And then to your point, the
leaders role, like what do you do with that For the leader?
It's such a big question. Are you creating an environment
in a community, in a culture where people, you know, I don't
always love the expression bring my whole self to work because I
think that that assumes that I want to do that.
But bring, bring the level of self that I want to bring, You
know, like I want there to be norms for sure, but not
barriers, you know, like guardrails, but not barriers.
If I, if I get a lot of value out of work, I want to be in a
place that lets me express that. And if work is not
transactional, but occupies a certain level in my
prioritization of, of needs and wants, then I don't want to be
forced to make it more than that.
And I think leaders can play a huge role in shaping the
culture. They don't.
The leader is not the culture, but the leader plays a
significant outsized role in shaping the culture because
especially for the negative, when the leader is doing bad
things, you see them almost instantly in the culture.
And I think, like I say, it's harder to build trust than it is
to lose it. I think a little bit of that's
true on the culture side too. Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, when someone contributes negatively to a culture or
contributes to the breakdown of culture, it, it, you might as
well take 5 steps back for every one step forward that good
behaviors can take, you know, can in terms of moving cultures
forward. And it's, it's really true.
I mean, I think that if everyone even just takes a moment to
think about the negative behaviors that stand out to them
even just from today or this week or whatever that looks
like, I could probably come up with 5-10 maybe that I've seen
from leaders who maybe are totally well-intentioned but
don't necessarily understand their impact.
And I actually was recently speaking with someone who will
be a guest on the podcast later in 2026.
And she asked me, like, why do you think leaders don't do more?
Or like, why? Why do they not see this
potential for impact, basically? And I said, well, you know, I
think two ways. I think skeptically and I think
optimistically. And that's just how I balance,
you know, my brain. And this the skeptic in me says,
well, they don't care. But the optimist in me, which
generally is more of the overarching theme in terms of my
personality, is that they just don't know.
They don't understand There's something that they haven't
learned yet that when they say, Hey, thank you so much Tracy,
for working while you were sick and you weren't with your kids
at their bedtime like you like to do.
And and we really appreciate all the sacrifice that you made.
They could think this didn't happen to me, but just saying as
an example this could this could be someone thinking, wow, that
like, I really appreciate that Tracy just went so above and
beyond and I want to recognize her for that.
But really what that does is say, Hey, this is how you get
somewhere. You have to work when you're
sick, you can't spend time with your kids, and you have to
sacrifice the things that matter to you most in order to get
somewhere. And this is where I think
sometimes if leaders don't see that they are in a fishbowl and
they are being looked at with such a magnifying glass that
every small thing, every big thing is going to be amplified.
And for good reason, I think, but especially the negative
things, they are just so apparent.
And it's, it's sometimes it's as simple as that, that they think
that they're recognizing someone when really they're actually
rewarding behaviors that we that companies really don't benefit
from. Well, I love that example
because what you're really getting at in my mind is what,
what drives trust and this idea that, you know, in in most, most
people in their work experience, they have both a conscious and a
subconscious recognition of where the power is in that
relationship. They, they kind of know like,
yeah, I work here and I'm, I'm my own, I'm my own human.
I have agency. I can decide not to work here
tomorrow, but but the power and at the most fundamental level is
most people need their jobs, right?
So if you need your job, there's a level of power that your
employer has that's not good or bad.
It just is because you theoretically need them more
than they need you. So that that fundamental
imbalance that is like pure, just economic, then this then
says, hey, so a leader that either consciously or
unconsciously does things that remind me of their power or
extend their power or maybe make me feel like I have less power
than I actually do. Those things really take on
outsized impacts on the employee because they're already feeling
that stress or pressure or strain.
And you know, again, whether they want this, whether this job
is everything to them or just a part of what matters to them.
Most employees on average want to do a good job and they they
don't want to have to worry about the fear of losing their
job. And I think in our current, you
know, maybe not so current our environment over the last number
of decades, that fundamental contractor relationship has
obviously changed because, you know, layoffs are a quarterly
reality for almost every industry And many, many
companies, companies and industries that were never
touched now have to experience this.
And I kind of zoom out and I say, well, all of that is the
big picture change context that organizations, leaders and
associates find themselves in. The environment is changing,
tech is changing, how consumers interact with brands are
changing. All that puts a lot of external
pressure on the company, on the business, on the brand.
So now they have to start making decisions that leaders from 25
years ago didn't have to make, and they have to make them in a
context that is changing by the day that leaders 25 years ago,
they had their own set of problems, to be clear, but
they're different. And so now you have this, this
sort of storm happening inside culture in the workplace that is
trying to figure out how do we fit with what's going on in the
external environment. And I think some of the answer
is you may not be able to. You might just have to say the
old rules apply less and less everyday.
I've got to come up with a new way of understanding where my
employees are at, what really matters to them, and also how am
I showing up to your original point, Like what is my impact on
them as much as what is their own experience, regardless of
the role I'm playing in, I think both of those are really
important for leaders today. Yeah, I agree.
I agree. And you know, sometimes I when I
interact with newer leaders, inevitably there, there's a lot
of unknown or a lot of, you know, just lack of experience
for people who have never LED teams before, whether it's one
person or multiple. And on top of that unknown, I
think there's also all of this pressure that people feel to go
from being a successful individual contributor to a
hyper successful leader. And then you also have this
reality where sometimes companies don't actually prepare
people to become leaders, either before they become leaders or
even while they're leaders. And so then you throw these
people who have no idea what's going on.
They just, you know, they're maybe they're replicating what
leaders before them that they have reported into or their
current leaders what they have seen.
And you hope that they've had good examples.
Sometimes they've not had good examples.
And so then you know, what exactly are they emulating?
What exactly are they replicating?
And I think this is where in kind of reflecting on some of
some even more recent conversations I've had with
leaders, there's, there's an element to this, like from an HR
standpoint, where I really encourage people, leaders and HR
partners to these leaders that they just take a step back and
remember that they, you know, their job has changed.
Like they have their own job that they're doing.
Because gone are the days where you're just managing people and
you don't have like a different job.
Like you are doing the job that you're probably kind of doing
before, maybe with larger scope and you're leading people.
So your day looks different, your week, month, quarter looks
different. And you have to, you know, in a
way just like drop the ego a little bit.
Like it's OK. If you're going to make
mistakes, you're you are going to make mistakes.
And it's OK if you don't, you know, rise to the occasion right
away. Like there's a lot to learn.
You, you know, sometimes you have the situation where someone
goes from being a peer to then leading that particular person
or friend, or, you know, in that case, the peer.
And there are so many dynamics to think about.
And I think ego tends to be the thing that stands in a lot of
people's way. And we see this at every level
of leadership. Certainly sometimes the higher
you go, you see it a little bit more.
But I think that people would generally be best suited to just
remember that they are humans at the end of the day, and they're
leading humans and, you know, making mistakes and asking for
help and all of those things don't stop just because you've
become someone that leads other people.
I mean, you're talking to me about human centered leadership,
human centered brands, human centered product experiences
because, you know, for, for both a very recent reason, you know,
I think human centered is going to become more and more valuable
as we live in a series of made-up, AI driven slop.
It's like finding the finding the real is going to be more and
more important at at a minimum, just so I know if I'm dealing
and interacting with a real human.
And one of the things that was just having this conversation
with somebody else. One of the things that is a real
indicator of humanity is the capacity to make mistakes.
And you know, granted, a lot of our AI experiences today are
totally mistake ridden. I'm like, this is this is
ridiculous. But but the intention is for
them to be perfect and flawless. And I don't want perfect and
flawless and everything, you know, do I want, I definitely
want my car to run. Smoothly, almost Florida State
all the time. But I want humans to retain some
of this essential humanness of, you know, I might make a
mistake. I want to see tears.
I want to feel tears. I want to feel joy.
I want these things that are that only almost exist in
relationship to each other. You know, I can't have absolute
joy all the time because it literally loses its meaning if I
have no idea what the absence of joy is.
And that's a human experience. So when you start talking about
humans who who lead other humans, I think some people say,
well, why does that matter? You know, generally it's like,
OK, do we have to break this down?
It's because we're human. That's why it matters to be
human. But but I get it.
Some people want to understand like, well, how do I, you know,
emphasize this or lean into it? It goes back to differentiators.
You know, you want to be a place where people put at the top of
their list to work. You want to be a brand that
people put at the top of their list to buy.
Even an aspirational brand or an aspirational like you want to be
the leader of that people inside the company, like I hope I get
to work for them one day. So that aspiration creates
differentiation. If you are a place that people
aspire to be part of or be in relationship with, you have a
differentiator over the competition, whether that's
other places they could go work or other places they could buy
from. And that to me is is the
practical side. But I think the the more human
centric side is what would it look like if you do the thought
experiment in reverse? What would it look like to strip
away all of our humanity? You know, then we're like
literally living the matrix. And I really don't want that.
You're not going to put a Jack in the back of my head and be
like manufacture energy for the bots.
Like I don't want to do that. Totally.
I'm with you. I cosign that, yeah, it's this
is what makes being a human so awesome.
Take that AI, take that computers, no offense to the
recording studio that we are using right now, which is
totally AI powered, but seriously, I mean, it's it's
what makes being human, working with humans, leading humans so
fabulous. And that, you know, of course
it's not easy. And with human nature comes all
of the ups and downs. But there is, you know, this
propensity for flaws is totally OK.
And actually, I think when we, when we even just put into
perspective that companies in order to progress, in order to
be future stable, whatever that might mean or future ready, they
have to innovate. And you've literally cannot
innovate without making mistakes.
There is just no possible way of doing that.
AI makes mistakes as you said all the time.
Most people are not reading through things to.
Catch them. That's a whole, that's a whole
episode, 'cause I'm like people. Thinking due diligence, right,
totally, totally, no, it's, but it's, it's I think if we I, I, I
don't know, maybe sometimes the word mistakes throws people off
because they people are. So I mean, I certainly can feel
this way as someone who is, can be very type A or is very let me
be honest, I'm very type AI Can't it's not that I can be,
it's that I am. And you know, part of that is
like you have to have things a certain way.
You want to get things done 100%.
You want to build Rome. You don't want to just build,
you know, the door to the city. And half of that, I think, is
that like, like saying that a mistake was made is like, Oh my
gosh, I failed. But actually, to your point, how
do you know success without it? How do you know achievement
without, you know, hitting some bumps in the road and having to
navigate roadblocks or coming up against people who maybe even
work against you, right? You're, you're, I love this.
You're hitting on some of the things that we actually measure
in employee experience because when we did a, a lot of our work
lately has been on the employee side.
It's definitely been focusing on things like belonging and trust
and leadership impact. And we did a small pilot
recently with a group of like citywide community leaders and
we asked them to describe experiences where they felt like
they belonged. Because the, the, the premise
was, if you're a leader in this organization or region or
company, you have an obligation to create that belonging space
for the people under your responsibility.
But to get there, it's like, let's start with you.
Let's get you vulnerable, let's get you open.
And one of the things that that stood out in, in one of these
sort of experiential pathways towards belonging was challenge
and adversity, not separate from belonging, but as one of the
ways, like, if I can, if I can experience a challenge, if I can
navigate adversity, if I can make that mistake or fail and
experience what it's like to learn from that, That is one of
the most powerful frames for a person to feel like they belong
in that particular environment. And I haven't heard that one
that clearly before, but it showed up as a major theme.
And then I started thinking, well, let's look at this group
of people. They're, they're generally high
achievers, not so much socio economically because that was
very, very diverse, but they're all leading things and doing
things in a, in a, you know, ground breaking or innovative or
striving kind of way. They're either leading private
sector, public sector or non profit sector.
And so when you zoom out, you're like, well, that's interesting
because they almost wouldn't know what it means to belong in
any place if they had not been able to fail or try something
hard in some of those places. So the fact that some of them
said that's when I experienced belonging because I was able to
do that and grow from it or learn from it was really, really
interesting to me Because like you said, we so see mistakes and
failures as deeply, deeply negative.
And we've all heard by now failure is not, you know, it's
it's part of the innovation pathway, it's part of growth.
And it all sounds great when we're telling other people.
We got to tell ourselves like, you know, damn, I just failed.
And like, who wants to say that? Yeah, I have a funny story about
if we have time, I'll tell you later about failing and the
whole the whole process of it. I would love to hear it.
Yeah, I mean that, you know what, I think I might have even
said this before on my podcast probably a year or so ago,
because I can't remember it well enough.
So it it has to be over a year ago.
If it's any less than that, we've got problems.
There's nothing. There's nothing you said last
week. Not at all, no.
No, I hope not. I hope not.
And it was that, you know, sometimes people will say like
what's your, whether it's a job interview or someone asking a
question like what's your biggest failure?
And I struggle to answer that. Not because I've not failed,
I've obviously had failure in my life.
I think because part of me is like, you know, Oh my gosh,
failure is not who I am, right. And like a lot of us probably
think that way. And and so having been asked
that question like however many times throughout my life, you
I've almost had to confront within myself that failure is
part of how I got to where I am today.
And so to your point that there is such a deeply negative
reaction to that. And I think kind of coming back
to this initial kind of discussion that we had around
what leaders and organizations are rewarding or how they're
kind of creating some of these environments where this is
either welcomed and there's safety with psychological or
otherwise, where you can make mistakes and you can fail and
and learn from them or the opposite.
I think that this is where having a leader who's like, oh,
you made a mistake, that's cool. It's all right.
What'd you learn from it? What are we going to do
differently next time? How are we going to grow?
How are, you know, you might make the mistake again, but how
are you going to try not to? And I think that's where you end
up cultivating a team that is going to innovate more.
They're going to make more mistakes, They're going to
succeed more because of it, because they're going to not be
afraid to say, hey, you know what, I made a mistake or I
messed up on this, or I'm I miss this.
And, and maybe it's a big deal, maybe it's not.
But at least then you as a leader or that leader in that
particular circumstance can help that person navigate the
mistake, can guide them toward a different path for better
success in the future. And I think that that that is
probably one of the biggest opportunities that most
organizations have is how they navigate failure, mistakes, lack
of success, whatever that might be.
I, I love that idea. I mean, I wish we could do a
project like that right now, because I think there's so much
to learn from the failure experience, from the mistake
experience. But I also think there's like
you, you already hit some of the relationships, you know, what is
that? How does that relate to growth
or success or, or innovation even?
And to your point in the beginning, the leader either has
a, has a going in set of beliefs and assumptions that if if they
don't make clear and transparent, that's part of when
it shows up, like the leaders assuming everybody will do it
this way and they don't do it that way and there's a negative
consequence. And most of the, you know, the
environments people find themselves in has a, you know,
risk reward dynamic. It also has a, you know, success
failure dynamic. It's very binary.
So it's like, but I, I have found in my own experience in
others, the more a leader fosters, as an example, a
culture of experimentation. They are teaching people how to
make maybe smaller bets, but more often.
So you're reducing the aggregate risk because you're teaching
people how to do, do. Well, let's experiment on just
this little thing that that teaches me like the habits of,
well, why was it a, why was it a good experiment?
Because I didn't risk it all upfront.
I tried to figure out what I didn't know and at least bring
some people around to help me start closing those gaps.
And we had something that we can actually test and measure.
So it immediately changes the conversation from even failure
to experimentation because now the data is the data.
The data is teaching us whatever we learn, we are learning from
the experience of experimentation.
And but it takes a leader willing to say, hey, outside
pressures, I know you want a result like this by X amount of
time. There's probably no way to get
that result from where we are today without experimenting our
way there. So I need you all to stay out
here so I can give my team the safe space they need to
experiment. And that takes an emotionally,
deeply, emotionally intelligent leader who's willing to create
that kind of culture and take some of the hits if they're in a
place where that's not the norm, if they're trying to build a
little new culture along the way.
Yeah. Oh, I love that.
I feel like that is like probably a totally separate
episode on its own. And I can't even believe how
much time has already passed because I feel like I need,
well, a lot more time to break down even more.
I mean, this was such an amazing discussion and.
And I really like the, a lot of all of the perspectives that you
shared and how you see the, these opportunities and, and
from both the emotional intelligence standpoint and the
employee experience standpoint. And I would love for you to
share with the listeners where they can connect with you, learn
more and and potentially even get in touch with share more
stories. Your company absolutely thank
you for that. It has been a great
conversation. I I love spending time on
LinkedIn, so you can find me at James Dash, Warren Dash Seek,
that's SEQ, That's my profile. Or you can go to our website,
sharemorestories.com. And right there you can learn
from the home page about how we do this kind of work with
employees and organizations. A little bit about how we got
here because it's not a straight line.
But yeah, I would love for people to get in touch if
there's something they just want to talk about and rap about.
Be cool. Totally.
This has been so fun. I I would love to have you back
on the podcast. There's always more to talk
about and it's really been such a pleasure.
James, thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate it.
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