1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,560 I've talked before about how essential Into a QuickBooks 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,440 Payroll is for small businesses, especially if you're juggling HR 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,240 responsibilities. Having payroll job codes, time 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,760 tracking, and accounting connected in one system saves 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,360 time, reduces errors, and makes it easier to make smart 6 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,560 decisions fast. It's easy to see why it's the 7 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:18,840 number one payroll software for small businesses. 8 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,640 In fact, I actually know someone who is a small business owner 9 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,080 who uses Into a QuickBooks Payroll and gets all of these 10 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:28,040 amazing benefits from it. And now it's getting even 11 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,000 better. Starting this summer, QuickBooks 12 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,720 Payroll is evolving into something bigger, expanding 13 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,880 beyond payroll to support the entire team life cycle. 14 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,240 HR time, benefits and payroll will work together in one 15 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,120 connected system, fully integrated with your books. 16 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,680 And I love that because it's all symbiotic. 17 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,120 And that means that soon businesses will be able to 18 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,160 recruit and manage hiring from job posting to offer a letter 19 00:00:51,160 --> 00:00:54,520 right inside QuickBooks on board employees and one seamless flow 20 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,160 that feeds directly into payroll. 21 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,720 Manage digital documents with E signatures. 22 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,480 Love that and acknowledgements, all organized in one place. 23 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,880 Configure automated HR workflows for things like promotions or 24 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,040 off boarding. Track performance time off and 25 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,160 benefits alongside payroll. And everything lives where you 26 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,160 already run your finances, giving you more visibility, 27 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,920 consistency and confidence. And who doesn't love that? 28 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,760 Find me one person who doesn't love that you won't be able to. 29 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,840 So start using QuickBooks Payroll today and see how it 30 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:28,040 simplifies your workflow. And stay tuned for the evolution 31 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,080 coming this summer. Learn more at 32 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,120 quickbooks.com/workforce. That's quickbooks.com/workforce. 33 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,560 Welcome to the Bringing the human back to human Resources 34 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,880 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 35 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,320 spent my entire professional career in HR. 36 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,920 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 37 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,920 and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 38 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,800 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 39 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,640 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 40 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,680 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 41 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,000 back to Human Resources. Hello everyone. 42 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,480 Welcome back to Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources, 43 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,840 the podcast where hopefully you are getting a lot of new 44 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,520 information, maybe some insights, maybe you feel 45 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:12,520 validated, maybe you're like, I totally disagree with everything 46 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,280 they've just said. Either way, hopefully you're 47 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,880 getting something out of it. And the beauty is that we have 48 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:22,280 so many amazing guests that come on the show, including my guest 49 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,480 for this week, who is James Warren, and I think we're going 50 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,720 to have a lot of fun. That's just my prediction for 51 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,920 this episode, and I don't think I'm wrong. 52 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,560 So let me tell you a little bit about James. 53 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,840 He is the founder and CEO of Share More Stories, a human 54 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,280 experience insights company. The company's primary offering 55 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,680 is the Seek platform, which helps organizations and brands 56 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,160 uncover the emotional drivers behind employee and customer 57 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,320 experiences. James is a researcher, 58 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,520 strategist, writer, and facilitator who blends 59 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,960 storytelling, AI, and insights to help companies better 60 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,000 understand themselves, their customers, and their 61 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,120 communities. With nearly 30 years of 62 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,280 experience and marketing insights, strategy, and 63 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,160 innovation, he is passionate about the intersections of 64 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,640 humanity, technology, brands, communities, and culture. 65 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,120 An active community leader, he volunteers on several boards, 66 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,360 and he also studied economics and literature at Princeton and 67 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,960 creative writing at Columbia. Originally from New York, 68 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,120 although I am from New Jersey, very actually quite close to 69 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,760 Princeton, but still, I'm a New Yorker now. 70 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,040 So woo woo. James now calls Richmond home. 71 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,160 And you know what? We've talked a lot about traffic 72 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,280 and parking and all of that. And honestly, I can understand 73 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,560 why. James, welcome to the podcast. 74 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:36,600 Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for our 75 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,360 conversation today. Yes, same here. 76 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,760 Same here. And especially since you are, 77 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,600 you know, a storyteller and this is such a huge part of, you 78 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,080 know, what you do. I'm really excited to hear your 79 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,240 own stories. And maybe the 1st is how you 80 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,920 ended up finding yourself in this type of industry, in this 81 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,560 type of career and where kind of your passion around the subject 82 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:02,800 started? Yeah. 83 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,000 I mean, it's a great question. I think when I was little I was 84 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,600 always into stories and storytelling and I've loved 85 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,360 writing my whole life. And you know, those two things 86 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,399 from a creative and expressive standpoint have been really a 87 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:18,200 big part of me since I was since I was young. 88 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:20,880 Also, I always wanted to start my own business. 89 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,400 So those two things, as disparate as they are, were two 90 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,920 very long term guiding motivations for me. 91 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,960 And when I had an opportunity to transition from corporate career 92 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,160 to entrepreneurship, I took it. I was like, OK, this is the 93 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,320 time. And if I don't do it now, I'll 94 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:38,520 probably never do it and I'll regret it. 95 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,960 And so I've tried like when I was younger, I started 96 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,880 businesses as a kid. I started a business in high 97 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,280 school and this was the one that finally took and, and really 98 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,120 stuck. Because I think for me 99 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,280 personally, coming out of brand management and business 100 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:58,000 development, I could see both good, good uses of storytelling, 101 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,320 but also not so useful uses of storytelling. 102 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,520 And I really sensed that we were at a place where deeper 103 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,360 connection, deeper human understanding, this sort of move 104 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,400 towards experiences both inside the organization and in the 105 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:12,840 marketplace. Like those things were really 106 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:15,800 starting to pick up speed, you know, 10-15 years ago. 107 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,520 And now I think they're at a place where we can make a 108 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,920 difference, helping especially leaders in companies and 109 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:27,160 organizations listen differently and then act in a more impactful 110 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,160 way. So yeah, that's why I'm here. 111 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,120 I love it and, you know, it's it. 112 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,440 I'm just reflecting now on your academic accolades. 113 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,200 I mean, studying economics and literature at Princeton. 114 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,080 It kind of is a way of saying without saying that you use both 115 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,640 sides of your brain. Exactly right. 116 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,120 You know, it's like usually you get like one or the other. 117 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,720 You know, you get like someone who's like, really into 118 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,920 economics and numbers and math and stats, and then you have 119 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,720 someone who's into literature and creative writing, which you 120 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,480 studied at Columbia and all these other things. 121 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,600 But you're like, no, I want to do both because I can. 122 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,560 I wonder how much because I, you know, you get to a point where 123 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,280 you have a good sense of your own capabilities, but you still 124 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:11,840 never really know all of it. So you got to have people hold 125 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:14,720 up a mirror. And my teammate Andy, he's our 126 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,600 chief technology officer, and he's almost the opposite. 127 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,760 Like he is such a analytical thinker, a quantitative thinker. 128 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,760 He programs, he writes code and he also is his undergraduate was 129 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,880 in psychology, you know, so he's coming at it from the slight the 130 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,560 other way where he's definitely this person with a little bit of 131 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,000 the other side of his brain. And the funny part is as much as 132 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,080 he, he sees the world in code and shapes, like literally, he 133 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,720 also is a brilliant storyteller on his own and he doesn't think 134 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,080 of himself that way, which is hilarious. 135 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,240 Like stories. Then I'll listen to like the 136 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,160 stories and I'm like, OK, Andy. You're like, you're so good at 137 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,080 this, Andy. What's what's going on here? 138 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,480 What do you mean us stories? Wow, no, that's amazing. 139 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,280 I, I, I like what you said around, you know, we don't know. 140 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,280 Sometimes it, it effectively like takes us a little bit of 141 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:08,400 time to figure out what we, what our true capabilities are. 142 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:14,120 And I had a, a guest on recently, Scott Schickler, who 143 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,920 said that, you know, if you tell a group of people to raise their 144 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,920 hands as high as they can raise them and then you tell them, OK, 145 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,160 try a little bit more. Like 9 times out of 10, 146 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,360 basically I'm doing a really poor job of quoting him. 147 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,800 Nine times out of 10, people are able to lift their arms higher. 148 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,760 And that like really resonated with me because, you know, 149 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,160 sometimes and we see this like just in human nature in general 150 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,280 that there is this like nature versus nurture component. 151 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,000 I think that people who have these like really solid home 152 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,800 lives and they don't have any like housing or food 153 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:49,200 instability. I'm taking this like to a 154 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,800 totally different direction, I realize, but you know, like all 155 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,280 of this, right? Like they don't necessarily like 156 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,280 unless someone's saying to them, you can do so much more like, 157 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,160 oh, you're really good at math. Like why not go into the science 158 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,920 is why not go into the math like you could, you could do so much. 159 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,160 These are all the things, all the careers that you can go down 160 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,760 or you're a really good speaker. Maybe you should think about a 161 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,080 career in marketing communications are really 162 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,800 anything. And I often think about that, 163 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,880 that if unless we really have the right support system, we 164 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,280 don't necessarily know from a young age just how much we can 165 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,720 do. And that does also then take me 166 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,240 to like what happens to that person in business when they are 167 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,840 what they're, they're in a place where they believe they're at 168 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:38,080 their Max capability when maybe they're at 50%, they just don't 169 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 know it, but they're at their, you know, quote UN quote, Max 170 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,880 capability. And they have a leader who sees 171 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,480 in them so much more or they have a leader who sees in them 172 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,560 so much less, right? Like, you could go either way, 173 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:52,560 but it's just like, it's really kind of fascinating when you 174 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:55,720 think about how much of our childhood can actually really 175 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,880 play a role in our careers. Absolutely. 176 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,520 I mean, I think what you're hitting on, I love this, like 177 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,720 revealing some of the hidden truths about ourselves. 178 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,200 And I think that's true for the individual. 179 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,560 I think it's true for the organization because the hidden 180 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:11,880 truths are exactly as you say, they're things about ourselves 181 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,000 that maybe we're not recognizing or remembering or realizing can 182 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,000 be for any number of reasons from I got too comfortable to it 183 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,680 was dramatizing or, or some combination. 184 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,360 And one of the things that happens when when we bring 185 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,920 people into our platform or when we used to like facilitate 186 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,960 sessions and we're asking them to explore a story, it's 187 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,320 typically not a surface story. It's very foundational to their 188 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,960 belief system or how they work. So they'll ask questions like 189 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,560 tell me about the most memorable experience you've had with X 190 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,840 because that gives them a chance to go high or low, positive or 191 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,320 negative, but like what's really sticking with you? 192 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,400 And then we'd like just gently step them in. 193 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,800 The next thing, you know, they're like, wow, I had no idea 194 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,680 that this event or experience was staying with me this way, or 195 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,640 I had no idea that I felt this way about these things because 196 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,440 of this experience. So they will start like their 197 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,640 own discovery, their own insight into themselves, just 198 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,120 participating. And then to your point, the 199 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,960 leaders role, like what do you do with that For the leader? 200 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,200 It's such a big question. Are you creating an environment 201 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,640 in a community, in a culture where people, you know, I don't 202 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,640 always love the expression bring my whole self to work because I 203 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,000 think that that assumes that I want to do that. 204 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,560 But bring, bring the level of self that I want to bring, You 205 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:33,680 know, like I want there to be norms for sure, but not 206 00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:37,080 barriers, you know, like guardrails, but not barriers. 207 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,240 If I, if I get a lot of value out of work, I want to be in a 208 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,400 place that lets me express that. And if work is not 209 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,760 transactional, but occupies a certain level in my 210 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,920 prioritization of, of needs and wants, then I don't want to be 211 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,520 forced to make it more than that. 212 00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:56,360 And I think leaders can play a huge role in shaping the 213 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:57,160 culture. They don't. 214 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,160 The leader is not the culture, but the leader plays a 215 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:04,560 significant outsized role in shaping the culture because 216 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,840 especially for the negative, when the leader is doing bad 217 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,960 things, you see them almost instantly in the culture. 218 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,000 And I think, like I say, it's harder to build trust than it is 219 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,400 to lose it. I think a little bit of that's 220 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,640 true on the culture side too. Yeah, I totally agree. 221 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,040 I mean, when someone contributes negatively to a culture or 222 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,000 contributes to the breakdown of culture, it, it, you might as 223 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:31,160 well take 5 steps back for every one step forward that good 224 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,440 behaviors can take, you know, can in terms of moving cultures 225 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,520 forward. And it's, it's really true. 226 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,320 I mean, I think that if everyone even just takes a moment to 227 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,840 think about the negative behaviors that stand out to them 228 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,400 even just from today or this week or whatever that looks 229 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,080 like, I could probably come up with 5-10 maybe that I've seen 230 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,520 from leaders who maybe are totally well-intentioned but 231 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,600 don't necessarily understand their impact. 232 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,960 And I actually was recently speaking with someone who will 233 00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:02,520 be a guest on the podcast later in 2026. 234 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:09,400 And she asked me, like, why do you think leaders don't do more? 235 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:11,800 Or like, why? Why do they not see this 236 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,320 potential for impact, basically? And I said, well, you know, I 237 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,360 think two ways. I think skeptically and I think 238 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,560 optimistically. And that's just how I balance, 239 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,080 you know, my brain. And this the skeptic in me says, 240 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,640 well, they don't care. But the optimist in me, which 241 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,080 generally is more of the overarching theme in terms of my 242 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,400 personality, is that they just don't know. 243 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,600 They don't understand There's something that they haven't 244 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,720 learned yet that when they say, Hey, thank you so much Tracy, 245 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,000 for working while you were sick and you weren't with your kids 246 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:47,920 at their bedtime like you like to do. 247 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,440 And and we really appreciate all the sacrifice that you made. 248 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,480 They could think this didn't happen to me, but just saying as 249 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:57,480 an example this could this could be someone thinking, wow, that 250 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,000 like, I really appreciate that Tracy just went so above and 251 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,840 beyond and I want to recognize her for that. 252 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,640 But really what that does is say, Hey, this is how you get 253 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,640 somewhere. You have to work when you're 254 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,360 sick, you can't spend time with your kids, and you have to 255 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,600 sacrifice the things that matter to you most in order to get 256 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,440 somewhere. And this is where I think 257 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:22,120 sometimes if leaders don't see that they are in a fishbowl and 258 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,560 they are being looked at with such a magnifying glass that 259 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:29,400 every small thing, every big thing is going to be amplified. 260 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,800 And for good reason, I think, but especially the negative 261 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,560 things, they are just so apparent. 262 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,040 And it's, it's sometimes it's as simple as that, that they think 263 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,240 that they're recognizing someone when really they're actually 264 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,400 rewarding behaviors that we that companies really don't benefit 265 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,880 from. Well, I love that example 266 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,360 because what you're really getting at in my mind is what, 267 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:55,720 what drives trust and this idea that, you know, in in most, most 268 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,440 people in their work experience, they have both a conscious and a 269 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,000 subconscious recognition of where the power is in that 270 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,360 relationship. They, they kind of know like, 271 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,320 yeah, I work here and I'm, I'm my own, I'm my own human. 272 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,400 I have agency. I can decide not to work here 273 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,400 tomorrow, but but the power and at the most fundamental level is 274 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,240 most people need their jobs, right? 275 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,320 So if you need your job, there's a level of power that your 276 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,920 employer has that's not good or bad. 277 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,040 It just is because you theoretically need them more 278 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,080 than they need you. So that that fundamental 279 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,720 imbalance that is like pure, just economic, then this then 280 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,240 says, hey, so a leader that either consciously or 281 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,200 unconsciously does things that remind me of their power or 282 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,000 extend their power or maybe make me feel like I have less power 283 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,760 than I actually do. Those things really take on 284 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,280 outsized impacts on the employee because they're already feeling 285 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,600 that stress or pressure or strain. 286 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,720 And you know, again, whether they want this, whether this job 287 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,080 is everything to them or just a part of what matters to them. 288 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,520 Most employees on average want to do a good job and they they 289 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,440 don't want to have to worry about the fear of losing their 290 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:07,440 job. And I think in our current, you 291 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,920 know, maybe not so current our environment over the last number 292 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,000 of decades, that fundamental contractor relationship has 293 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,800 obviously changed because, you know, layoffs are a quarterly 294 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,400 reality for almost every industry And many, many 295 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,640 companies, companies and industries that were never 296 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,960 touched now have to experience this. 297 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,600 And I kind of zoom out and I say, well, all of that is the 298 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,080 big picture change context that organizations, leaders and 299 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,360 associates find themselves in. The environment is changing, 300 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,720 tech is changing, how consumers interact with brands are 301 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,400 changing. All that puts a lot of external 302 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,320 pressure on the company, on the business, on the brand. 303 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,360 So now they have to start making decisions that leaders from 25 304 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,840 years ago didn't have to make, and they have to make them in a 305 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:56,200 context that is changing by the day that leaders 25 years ago, 306 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,360 they had their own set of problems, to be clear, but 307 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,120 they're different. And so now you have this, this 308 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,080 sort of storm happening inside culture in the workplace that is 309 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,360 trying to figure out how do we fit with what's going on in the 310 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,160 external environment. And I think some of the answer 311 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,000 is you may not be able to. You might just have to say the 312 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,080 old rules apply less and less everyday. 313 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,440 I've got to come up with a new way of understanding where my 314 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,680 employees are at, what really matters to them, and also how am 315 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,760 I showing up to your original point, Like what is my impact on 316 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:29,240 them as much as what is their own experience, regardless of 317 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,200 the role I'm playing in, I think both of those are really 318 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,120 important for leaders today. Yeah, I agree. 319 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,000 I agree. And you know, sometimes I when I 320 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:43,040 interact with newer leaders, inevitably there, there's a lot 321 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,000 of unknown or a lot of, you know, just lack of experience 322 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,960 for people who have never LED teams before, whether it's one 323 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,720 person or multiple. And on top of that unknown, I 324 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,320 think there's also all of this pressure that people feel to go 325 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,800 from being a successful individual contributor to a 326 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,040 hyper successful leader. And then you also have this 327 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,640 reality where sometimes companies don't actually prepare 328 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,040 people to become leaders, either before they become leaders or 329 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,280 even while they're leaders. And so then you throw these 330 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,760 people who have no idea what's going on. 331 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,760 They just, you know, they're maybe they're replicating what 332 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,040 leaders before them that they have reported into or their 333 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,960 current leaders what they have seen. 334 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,600 And you hope that they've had good examples. 335 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,160 Sometimes they've not had good examples. 336 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,240 And so then you know, what exactly are they emulating? 337 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,240 What exactly are they replicating? 338 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,240 And I think this is where in kind of reflecting on some of 339 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:43,640 some even more recent conversations I've had with 340 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:48,760 leaders, there's, there's an element to this, like from an HR 341 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,960 standpoint, where I really encourage people, leaders and HR 342 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,160 partners to these leaders that they just take a step back and 343 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,560 remember that they, you know, their job has changed. 344 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,760 Like they have their own job that they're doing. 345 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,640 Because gone are the days where you're just managing people and 346 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:05,760 you don't have like a different job. 347 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,240 Like you are doing the job that you're probably kind of doing 348 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,640 before, maybe with larger scope and you're leading people. 349 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,480 So your day looks different, your week, month, quarter looks 350 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,520 different. And you have to, you know, in a 351 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,640 way just like drop the ego a little bit. 352 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,400 Like it's OK. If you're going to make 353 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,960 mistakes, you're you are going to make mistakes. 354 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,200 And it's OK if you don't, you know, rise to the occasion right 355 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:30,640 away. Like there's a lot to learn. 356 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:34,640 You, you know, sometimes you have the situation where someone 357 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,560 goes from being a peer to then leading that particular person 358 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,200 or friend, or, you know, in that case, the peer. 359 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,200 And there are so many dynamics to think about. 360 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,320 And I think ego tends to be the thing that stands in a lot of 361 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,760 people's way. And we see this at every level 362 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,600 of leadership. Certainly sometimes the higher 363 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,200 you go, you see it a little bit more. 364 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:03,320 But I think that people would generally be best suited to just 365 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,600 remember that they are humans at the end of the day, and they're 366 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,800 leading humans and, you know, making mistakes and asking for 367 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,720 help and all of those things don't stop just because you've 368 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,240 become someone that leads other people. 369 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,320 I mean, you're talking to me about human centered leadership, 370 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,960 human centered brands, human centered product experiences 371 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,600 because, you know, for, for both a very recent reason, you know, 372 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,240 I think human centered is going to become more and more valuable 373 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,040 as we live in a series of made-up, AI driven slop. 374 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,480 It's like finding the finding the real is going to be more and 375 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,760 more important at at a minimum, just so I know if I'm dealing 376 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,000 and interacting with a real human. 377 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,440 And one of the things that was just having this conversation 378 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,560 with somebody else. One of the things that is a real 379 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,360 indicator of humanity is the capacity to make mistakes. 380 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,120 And you know, granted, a lot of our AI experiences today are 381 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,640 totally mistake ridden. I'm like, this is this is 382 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,160 ridiculous. But but the intention is for 383 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,600 them to be perfect and flawless. And I don't want perfect and 384 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,240 flawless and everything, you know, do I want, I definitely 385 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,440 want my car to run. Smoothly, almost Florida State 386 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,960 all the time. But I want humans to retain some 387 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,240 of this essential humanness of, you know, I might make a 388 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,000 mistake. I want to see tears. 389 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,880 I want to feel tears. I want to feel joy. 390 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,160 I want these things that are that only almost exist in 391 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,400 relationship to each other. You know, I can't have absolute 392 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,280 joy all the time because it literally loses its meaning if I 393 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,680 have no idea what the absence of joy is. 394 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,880 And that's a human experience. So when you start talking about 395 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,280 humans who who lead other humans, I think some people say, 396 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,240 well, why does that matter? You know, generally it's like, 397 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,080 OK, do we have to break this down? 398 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,120 It's because we're human. That's why it matters to be 399 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:46,760 human. But but I get it. 400 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Some people want to understand like, well, how do I, you know, 401 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,040 emphasize this or lean into it? It goes back to differentiators. 402 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,280 You know, you want to be a place where people put at the top of 403 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,480 their list to work. You want to be a brand that 404 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,040 people put at the top of their list to buy. 405 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,880 Even an aspirational brand or an aspirational like you want to be 406 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,920 the leader of that people inside the company, like I hope I get 407 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,720 to work for them one day. So that aspiration creates 408 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,320 differentiation. If you are a place that people 409 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,280 aspire to be part of or be in relationship with, you have a 410 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,920 differentiator over the competition, whether that's 411 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,760 other places they could go work or other places they could buy 412 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,720 from. And that to me is is the 413 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,920 practical side. But I think the the more human 414 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,280 centric side is what would it look like if you do the thought 415 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,360 experiment in reverse? What would it look like to strip 416 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,880 away all of our humanity? You know, then we're like 417 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,320 literally living the matrix. And I really don't want that. 418 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,480 You're not going to put a Jack in the back of my head and be 419 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,080 like manufacture energy for the bots. 420 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,040 Like I don't want to do that. Totally. 421 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,800 I'm with you. I cosign that, yeah, it's this 422 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,920 is what makes being a human so awesome. 423 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,360 Take that AI, take that computers, no offense to the 424 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:59,640 recording studio that we are using right now, which is 425 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,160 totally AI powered, but seriously, I mean, it's it's 426 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,440 what makes being human, working with humans, leading humans so 427 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,000 fabulous. And that, you know, of course 428 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,720 it's not easy. And with human nature comes all 429 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,800 of the ups and downs. But there is, you know, this 430 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,880 propensity for flaws is totally OK. 431 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,480 And actually, I think when we, when we even just put into 432 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,480 perspective that companies in order to progress, in order to 433 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,240 be future stable, whatever that might mean or future ready, they 434 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,040 have to innovate. And you've literally cannot 435 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,440 innovate without making mistakes. 436 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:39,080 There is just no possible way of doing that. 437 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,360 AI makes mistakes as you said all the time. 438 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:45,000 Most people are not reading through things to. 439 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,960 Catch them. That's a whole, that's a whole 440 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,040 episode, 'cause I'm like people. Thinking due diligence, right, 441 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,360 totally, totally, no, it's, but it's, it's I think if we I, I, I 442 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:01,600 don't know, maybe sometimes the word mistakes throws people off 443 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,960 because they people are. So I mean, I certainly can feel 444 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,480 this way as someone who is, can be very type A or is very let me 445 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,440 be honest, I'm very type AI Can't it's not that I can be, 446 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,360 it's that I am. And you know, part of that is 447 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:18,760 like you have to have things a certain way. 448 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,800 You want to get things done 100%. 449 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,640 You want to build Rome. You don't want to just build, 450 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,000 you know, the door to the city. And half of that, I think, is 451 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,120 that like, like saying that a mistake was made is like, Oh my 452 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,360 gosh, I failed. But actually, to your point, how 453 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:39,400 do you know success without it? How do you know achievement 454 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,040 without, you know, hitting some bumps in the road and having to 455 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,440 navigate roadblocks or coming up against people who maybe even 456 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,840 work against you, right? You're, you're, I love this. 457 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,120 You're hitting on some of the things that we actually measure 458 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:56,920 in employee experience because when we did a, a lot of our work 459 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,400 lately has been on the employee side. 460 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,920 It's definitely been focusing on things like belonging and trust 461 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,240 and leadership impact. And we did a small pilot 462 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:09,360 recently with a group of like citywide community leaders and 463 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,680 we asked them to describe experiences where they felt like 464 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,600 they belonged. Because the, the, the premise 465 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,440 was, if you're a leader in this organization or region or 466 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,560 company, you have an obligation to create that belonging space 467 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,760 for the people under your responsibility. 468 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,040 But to get there, it's like, let's start with you. 469 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,920 Let's get you vulnerable, let's get you open. 470 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:32,360 And one of the things that that stood out in, in one of these 471 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:38,400 sort of experiential pathways towards belonging was challenge 472 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,720 and adversity, not separate from belonging, but as one of the 473 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,200 ways, like, if I can, if I can experience a challenge, if I can 474 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,200 navigate adversity, if I can make that mistake or fail and 475 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,280 experience what it's like to learn from that, That is one of 476 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,200 the most powerful frames for a person to feel like they belong 477 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,200 in that particular environment. And I haven't heard that one 478 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,520 that clearly before, but it showed up as a major theme. 479 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,600 And then I started thinking, well, let's look at this group 480 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,480 of people. They're, they're generally high 481 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,800 achievers, not so much socio economically because that was 482 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,160 very, very diverse, but they're all leading things and doing 483 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,840 things in a, in a, you know, ground breaking or innovative or 484 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,640 striving kind of way. They're either leading private 485 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,880 sector, public sector or non profit sector. 486 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,440 And so when you zoom out, you're like, well, that's interesting 487 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,040 because they almost wouldn't know what it means to belong in 488 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,920 any place if they had not been able to fail or try something 489 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,000 hard in some of those places. So the fact that some of them 490 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,520 said that's when I experienced belonging because I was able to 491 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,960 do that and grow from it or learn from it was really, really 492 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,600 interesting to me Because like you said, we so see mistakes and 493 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,280 failures as deeply, deeply negative. 494 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,400 And we've all heard by now failure is not, you know, it's 495 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,400 it's part of the innovation pathway, it's part of growth. 496 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,680 And it all sounds great when we're telling other people. 497 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,400 We got to tell ourselves like, you know, damn, I just failed. 498 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,360 And like, who wants to say that? Yeah, I have a funny story about 499 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,560 if we have time, I'll tell you later about failing and the 500 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,600 whole the whole process of it. I would love to hear it. 501 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,760 Yeah, I mean that, you know what, I think I might have even 502 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,640 said this before on my podcast probably a year or so ago, 503 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,880 because I can't remember it well enough. 504 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,960 So it it has to be over a year ago. 505 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,640 If it's any less than that, we've got problems. 506 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,080 There's nothing. There's nothing you said last 507 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:23,920 week. Not at all, no. 508 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,720 No, I hope not. I hope not. 509 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,200 And it was that, you know, sometimes people will say like 510 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,000 what's your, whether it's a job interview or someone asking a 511 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,440 question like what's your biggest failure? 512 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,720 And I struggle to answer that. Not because I've not failed, 513 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,960 I've obviously had failure in my life. 514 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,760 I think because part of me is like, you know, Oh my gosh, 515 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:49,680 failure is not who I am, right. And like a lot of us probably 516 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,600 think that way. And and so having been asked 517 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,960 that question like however many times throughout my life, you 518 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:01,080 I've almost had to confront within myself that failure is 519 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,560 part of how I got to where I am today. 520 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,880 And so to your point that there is such a deeply negative 521 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,400 reaction to that. And I think kind of coming back 522 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,680 to this initial kind of discussion that we had around 523 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,440 what leaders and organizations are rewarding or how they're 524 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:27,560 kind of creating some of these environments where this is 525 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,560 either welcomed and there's safety with psychological or 526 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,320 otherwise, where you can make mistakes and you can fail and 527 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,680 and learn from them or the opposite. 528 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,480 I think that this is where having a leader who's like, oh, 529 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,160 you made a mistake, that's cool. It's all right. 530 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:44,880 What'd you learn from it? What are we going to do 531 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,600 differently next time? How are we going to grow? 532 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,240 How are, you know, you might make the mistake again, but how 533 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:56,000 are you going to try not to? And I think that's where you end 534 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,440 up cultivating a team that is going to innovate more. 535 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,720 They're going to make more mistakes, They're going to 536 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,360 succeed more because of it, because they're going to not be 537 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,320 afraid to say, hey, you know what, I made a mistake or I 538 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,400 messed up on this, or I'm I miss this. 539 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,560 And, and maybe it's a big deal, maybe it's not. 540 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,360 But at least then you as a leader or that leader in that 541 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,160 particular circumstance can help that person navigate the 542 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,560 mistake, can guide them toward a different path for better 543 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,640 success in the future. And I think that that that is 544 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,160 probably one of the biggest opportunities that most 545 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:39,400 organizations have is how they navigate failure, mistakes, lack 546 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,000 of success, whatever that might be. 547 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,920 I, I love that idea. I mean, I wish we could do a 548 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,440 project like that right now, because I think there's so much 549 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,280 to learn from the failure experience, from the mistake 550 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,800 experience. But I also think there's like 551 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,400 you, you already hit some of the relationships, you know, what is 552 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,960 that? How does that relate to growth 553 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,240 or success or, or innovation even? 554 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,520 And to your point in the beginning, the leader either has 555 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,680 a, has a going in set of beliefs and assumptions that if if they 556 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,040 don't make clear and transparent, that's part of when 557 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,200 it shows up, like the leaders assuming everybody will do it 558 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,960 this way and they don't do it that way and there's a negative 559 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,160 consequence. And most of the, you know, the 560 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,360 environments people find themselves in has a, you know, 561 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,520 risk reward dynamic. It also has a, you know, success 562 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,560 failure dynamic. It's very binary. 563 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,640 So it's like, but I, I have found in my own experience in 564 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,640 others, the more a leader fosters, as an example, a 565 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,120 culture of experimentation. They are teaching people how to 566 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,520 make maybe smaller bets, but more often. 567 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,440 So you're reducing the aggregate risk because you're teaching 568 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,920 people how to do, do. Well, let's experiment on just 569 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,320 this little thing that that teaches me like the habits of, 570 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,840 well, why was it a, why was it a good experiment? 571 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,520 Because I didn't risk it all upfront. 572 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,800 I tried to figure out what I didn't know and at least bring 573 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,200 some people around to help me start closing those gaps. 574 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,200 And we had something that we can actually test and measure. 575 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,080 So it immediately changes the conversation from even failure 576 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,080 to experimentation because now the data is the data. 577 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,440 The data is teaching us whatever we learn, we are learning from 578 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,600 the experience of experimentation. 579 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,040 And but it takes a leader willing to say, hey, outside 580 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,920 pressures, I know you want a result like this by X amount of 581 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,240 time. There's probably no way to get 582 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,600 that result from where we are today without experimenting our 583 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,840 way there. So I need you all to stay out 584 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,320 here so I can give my team the safe space they need to 585 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,680 experiment. And that takes an emotionally, 586 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,760 deeply, emotionally intelligent leader who's willing to create 587 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,320 that kind of culture and take some of the hits if they're in a 588 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,000 place where that's not the norm, if they're trying to build a 589 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,240 little new culture along the way. 590 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,520 Yeah. Oh, I love that. 591 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,720 I feel like that is like probably a totally separate 592 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,360 episode on its own. And I can't even believe how 593 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,680 much time has already passed because I feel like I need, 594 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:04,520 well, a lot more time to break down even more. 595 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,360 I mean, this was such an amazing discussion and. 596 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,800 And I really like the, a lot of all of the perspectives that you 597 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,800 shared and how you see the, these opportunities and, and 598 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,040 from both the emotional intelligence standpoint and the 599 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:24,080 employee experience standpoint. And I would love for you to 600 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,840 share with the listeners where they can connect with you, learn 601 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,000 more and and potentially even get in touch with share more 602 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,840 stories. Your company absolutely thank 603 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:32,800 you for that. It has been a great 604 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,240 conversation. I I love spending time on 605 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:39,720 LinkedIn, so you can find me at James Dash, Warren Dash Seek, 606 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,560 that's SEQ, That's my profile. Or you can go to our website, 607 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,920 sharemorestories.com. And right there you can learn 608 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,520 from the home page about how we do this kind of work with 609 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,560 employees and organizations. A little bit about how we got 610 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,160 here because it's not a straight line. 611 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,000 But yeah, I would love for people to get in touch if 612 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,040 there's something they just want to talk about and rap about. 613 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,800 Be cool. Totally. 614 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,800 This has been so fun. I I would love to have you back 615 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,360 on the podcast. There's always more to talk 616 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,240 about and it's really been such a pleasure. 617 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,520 James, thank you so much. Thank you, I appreciate it. 618 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,960 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 619 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,880 so that you are the first to hear when an episode drops each 620 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,320 week and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 621 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,120 much you loved this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 622 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,560 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 623 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,560 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 624 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,960 and I'll see you next week.