1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,800 podcast. I'm Tracy Turn off and I've 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,240 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,840 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,840 and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,720 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,560 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,600 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,360 back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the 10 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,320 Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 11 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:29,960 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 12 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,480 This week I am joined by Archana Mohan, a leader, teacher, and 13 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,440 author who believes the authentic leadership, and that 14 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:40,280 authentic leadership in general, starts from within. 15 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,480 Growing up in a multicultural environment, Archana witnessed 16 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:46,440 first hand how strong leadership could build relationships, 17 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,480 bridge cultural divides, and foster collaboration. 18 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,560 She brings a unique perspective to her work, drawing on her 19 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,800 experiences as both a teacher and a leader to drive 20 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,600 innovation. Her journey, shaped by paradox 21 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,800 and fueled by curiosity, has taught her that leadership isn't 22 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,959 about ticking boxes or chasing external validation. 23 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:07,960 It's actually about embracing complexity, leaning into 24 00:01:07,960 --> 00:01:10,280 discomfort, and crafting your through line. 25 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,080 As Chief Operations and Technology Officer within the 26 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,360 finance sector, Archana has a passion for unlocking human 27 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,160 potential. And I think we can all agree 28 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,960 that this is exactly who we want to hear from on this podcast. 29 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,800 She has built teams, LED through uncertainty, and empowered 30 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,480 others to find their path forward. 31 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,440 Archana's academic qualifications include ABA in 32 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,680 French, literature from Brown University, and MA in Education 33 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,280 from Columbia University, and an MBA in Finance from Yale 34 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,320 University. So some amazing universities and 35 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:41,400 accolades there. And when she's not helping 36 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,680 others lead from their core, Archana can be found learning 37 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,920 from life's twists and turns and reminding everyone that the most 38 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,280 important question is, if you don't, who will? 39 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,680 And so, Archana, welcome to the podcast. 40 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,280 Thank you so much for bringing all of your knowledge and 41 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,720 experience to the show. Thank you Tracy for having me. 42 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,440 It's really great to be here. Of course, of course, we are so 43 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:08,919 grateful for your time and those degrees that you have collected 44 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,960 over time are incredible from some amazing institutions. 45 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,440 So kudos to you. I'm sure a lot of hard work. 46 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,560 Yeah, a lot of hard work, but a lot of fun too. 47 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,920 So I think it, yeah, very lucky, very, very lucky. 48 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,400 Amazing. Well, I kind of want to start 49 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,960 with a little bit more about you because I know naturally you do 50 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,520 have a book called the Through Line, how understanding who you 51 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,680 are empowers, how you lead. And I'd love for you to share 52 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,440 with the listeners where the inspiration for that book and 53 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,120 the content of your book kind of came from. 54 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,160 Sure. So I guess I'll take everyone 55 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,360 back to COVID and lockdown. So in March 2020, we were locked 56 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,160 down. And it's probably not a period 57 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,680 in our history that we necessarily want to go back to 58 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,320 very often. But one of the things it did for 59 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:07,680 me was it allowed me to come face to face with some key 60 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:12,840 questions, some questions about the type of leader I wanted to 61 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,720 be and the type of leader I wanted to work for. 62 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,640 And so in that process of introspection, I discovered or 63 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:28,200 stumbled upon this idea that who we are really influences how we 64 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:31,440 lead. And that was the beginning of 65 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:37,880 the sort of birthing of this book where I tried to think 66 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:43,200 about how do we build a framework that's easy to use in 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,840 the workplace that encourages each of us to show up as we are 68 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:53,840 and to empower others to find the best of themselves and to 69 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,000 show up in the way they wish to in the workplace. 70 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,920 And so that was kind of the the origins of the book. 71 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,480 And the reason I decided to sort of write it all down was that I 72 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,880 wish I'd had this playbook when I started out in my career, 73 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,920 which was a long time ago. And I thought if I could offer 74 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,840 one person that that sort of framework, it might help. 75 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,720 So that's why I did it. Amazing. 76 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,800 And I think it's so interesting and actually quite helpful for 77 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,240 everyone listening actually to understand that your background 78 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,480 is not an HR. You're a passionate leader 79 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,600 within, you know, business presently within the finance 80 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,120 sector of the world where you you see this opportunity and 81 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:45,200 potential that intrinsically lies within humans and human 82 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,880 connection and what they bring to the workplace. 83 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,080 And I'm curious, like, have you always kind of felt impassioned 84 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,520 by that, or did you have a leader or a mentor who really 85 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,160 brought that out of you? Yeah, it's a great question, 86 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,040 Tracy. And I think I was thinking about 87 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,480 in in thinking about this conversation with you, I was 88 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,240 thinking about what is my connection? 89 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:16,280 Why do I feel like I want to empower people? 90 00:05:16,280 --> 00:05:19,200 What is it about me or my experience that brought me to 91 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,880 this point? And I think it all goes back to 92 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:27,840 my very first job in high school was in the mail room for an HR 93 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:31,200 director. Actually, weirdly, I'd never 94 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,960 kind of made the connection before. 95 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,080 And when I spoke to you, I thought about it and I was like, 96 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,240 that's really weird. Maybe, maybe the universe 97 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,120 conspired to get me my first experience with people. 98 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,160 But I do think that it had something to do with this 99 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:50,840 fascination about we can automate a lot of things in the 100 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:54,200 workplace and the conversation around AI is obviously 101 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,640 incredibly topical and very relevant to all of us in our in 102 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,400 our day-to-day lives and jobs and everything we do actually. 103 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,200 But what we can't take away is human emotion and human insight 104 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,520 and human beings from the workplace. 105 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:19,040 I think we each are really fundamental to ensuring that our 106 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,760 businesses thrive, but we're also fundamental to ensuring 107 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,040 that each other thrive. And that connection is really 108 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,320 important to me. And so while I am definitely not 109 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:37,880 an HR specialist, unfortunately, I am fascinated by the whole 110 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:44,680 area in terms of how do we as leaders think about the people 111 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:50,960 who work in organizations not as capital, not as resources, but 112 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:58,760 as people without any kind of data or analytics or numbers. 113 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,040 This is just about how we feel when we enter the workplace. 114 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,840 Do we feel like we are included? Do we feel like our voices are 115 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:07,280 heard? Do we feel like we have an 116 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:09,600 impact? Because ultimately we are 117 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,120 meaning making machines. We need to feel needed. 118 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,680 And that's what I'm trying to achieve. 119 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,440 That that is kind of that really drives me. 120 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:25,120 And I think if I think about why, it's probably because along 121 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,920 the path of my career, I haven't always felt like I belonged. 122 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:35,000 I haven't always felt like my voice mattered, and so I've kind 123 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,280 of been in search of how to create those environments now 124 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:39,880 that I'm in a position where I can. 125 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,280 Wow, that's, I mean, that's really powerful. 126 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,840 I think it, you know, people respond generally in one of two 127 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,960 ways when they find themselves in that type of circumstance 128 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,240 where they don't necessarily feel heard or, you know, seen or 129 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,840 valued, whatever the the the word might be. 130 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:05,920 And it's either people kind of become reclusive and they, they 131 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:12,240 retreat and, and you know, maybe even kind of avoid or they lean 132 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,800 in, which is effectively what you've done and lean in so much. 133 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,120 So where then they want others not to feel the way that they 134 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,840 once felt. So I'm sure, I'm sure that there 135 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:26,920 are a lot of people, especially considering your role, the 136 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,800 seniority of your role, I'm sure there are a lot of people who 137 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,280 appreciate what you have been able to create for people either 138 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,120 who work for you or with you or around you, I would assume. 139 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,400 Well, I mean, I hope so. I would say two things about 140 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,920 that. The first is you never do it 141 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,960 alone, right? I mean, it's really impact is 142 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,760 really important. But at the same time impact 143 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,560 comes from the collective. It doesn't come from any one 144 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,920 person. And I've really understood that 145 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,000 in, in a lot of ways. And we can talk about why I 146 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,840 think that. But I, I believe that the, the 147 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,480 group is stronger than the individual. 148 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,320 I think the importance of that is that, you know, we, we bring 149 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:13,680 different strengths to the table. 150 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,840 We bring different experiences to the table. 151 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,920 And all of those experiences matter. 152 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,960 Do they all matter in the context of the work we are doing 153 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,760 at the moment? I don't know. 154 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,360 It depends. But being an encouraging human 155 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,160 and allowing people to voice those differences is really 156 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:35,120 important because it actually helps the bottom line. 157 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,640 It helps the company grow. It helps the company protect. 158 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:43,800 It helps us do the right thing by whoever it is that we're 159 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,760 serving. This is, you're totally 160 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:52,720 preaching to at least my choir here because, you know, on my 161 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,120 show, at least I, I try to really, you know, be predictable 162 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,240 in some ways because I, I share my opinions, right? 163 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,840 And, and I'm pretty unrelenting in that way. 164 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,880 And something that I talk about often is that there is this 165 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:14,280 responsibility for businesses to understand and appreciate the 166 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:19,360 value of the human and that you don't have to be in HR. 167 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,840 In fact, it's probably more helpful if they're not in HR and 168 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,400 valuing this right. And of course we need HR leaders 169 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,040 to value too, But so often we're kind of screaming out in our own 170 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,760 echo chambers like matter, we matter, humans matter, we have 171 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,840 value. There's, you know, we can't just 172 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,480 replace or or or or see humans as this. 173 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,120 You know, you kind of mentioned it like capital and a number 174 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,640 effectively. And so I think it's really, 175 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,520 really important that non HR business leaders carry that 176 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,280 torch. And so to your point, this group 177 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,320 impact, which I think we should talk about because you mentioned 178 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:00,480 that it's something that we could get into. 179 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,920 So I think we should, this group impact does have, I mean, impact 180 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:06,920 is the perfect word. It does have a huge impact. 181 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,920 So what are your what are some of your learnings throughout 182 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,000 your career in terms of how impactful or significant 183 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:19,760 multiple minds or multiple kind of supports around this type of 184 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,000 movement with human value, human connection, humans in the 185 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,840 workplace impacting the bottom line. 186 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,040 Like where has where have you seen that kind of come to life 187 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,280 and and be significant in your career? 188 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,280 I think if you, if you think about the frame of mind in which 189 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,160 you find yourself when you start working. 190 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,880 And I don't want to over generalize here because of 191 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,600 course my experience is not, is not necessarily the norm. 192 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,200 But I do think that many of us start in the workplace and we, 193 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,680 we think about what we can do individually, what we can do at 194 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,160 work. Because we go to work, we spend 195 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:59,080 8 hours a day there, if not more. 196 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,720 And we want to, we want to see some return on that investment. 197 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,160 And then at some point, so you start out with the I, right? 198 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:11,960 You start out with what can I do? 199 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,720 What can I bring, what can I contribute to? 200 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:21,000 And eventually you start to realize, or at least I did, that 201 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,600 it was when I was getting into groups, into rooms with other 202 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:31,280 people, and I was brainstorming about ways to solve the latest 203 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,880 problem, whatever that might be, that I was not only able to come 204 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,560 to an answer more quickly, but also I was able to challenge my 205 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:44,000 own assumptions and get out of my echo chamber, as you said. 206 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,680 And then we collectively had an impact, right? 207 00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,800 It was no longer about me as a number, but about us as a unit. 208 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,320 And I, I find that very rewarding. 209 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:03,320 I can't express how or why I believe that really, but I I 210 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:09,680 feel that the combination of different strengths builds on 211 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,080 itself like it. It's. 212 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,080 It's exponential, right? What you can do as a group is is 213 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,120 just amazing. We see it. 214 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:23,880 I think the most sort of relevant metaphor is probably in 215 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:29,920 the sporting world, like team sports don't rely on one star 216 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:31,640 player. I mean, there are star players, 217 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,680 and that's amazing, but it's when the teams work together, 218 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:41,400 when the star player is able to bring everyone with them, you 219 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:46,800 end up winning games. You end up, you know, hitting 220 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:52,080 the scoreboard in a different way and I think you end up doing 221 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:57,440 difficult things more easily. And, and, and for me that that 222 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,440 is true impact. It's when it amplifies itself, 223 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,680 it builds on itself. It becomes the group and then 224 00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:04,400 the bigger group and then the huge group. 225 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:07,840 And pretty soon you have, as you said, a movement. 226 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,760 And it's not about big actions necessarily. 227 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,840 It's small steps, but they're really important steps, 228 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,560 remembering that we are all connected. 229 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,440 And I know that's a bit of like, you know, it's, it's people talk 230 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,160 about it a lot. You know, we are all connected 231 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,560 to everyone else and it's important to remember that. 232 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:31,120 But I I really truly believe that you cannot underestimate 233 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,200 the power of the group. I love that and it actually has 234 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,640 made me think a little bit about a conversation I've had with a 235 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,600 colleague recently, like in the last several days. 236 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,000 And before I talk about that conversation, I, I want to 237 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,680 mention too that a lot of the time on, on my show or in 238 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,000 conversations with, you know, thought leaders throughout, you 239 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,560 know, any kind of business really in industry, we talk a 240 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:02,000 lot about the dynamic between manager or company and employee. 241 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,360 And, you know, thinking about impact, even as you've mentioned 242 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,240 impact from the group and this collective down to the employee 243 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,880 and you, you the way, at least the way that I've taken it also 244 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,080 is this, you know, the impact that's felt laterally. 245 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,560 And so that made me think of this conversation that I've had 246 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,600 recently with a colleague of mine where we were talking about 247 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:26,480 collaboration. And of course, you know, the 248 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,120 buzzwords alignment, collaboration, those are always 249 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,600 thrown around. But what does it actually mean? 250 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,480 And this is one of the things that I was saying to her in 251 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,280 terms of as not even in terms of, but as we were effectively 252 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,880 trying to solve for a problem. And I asked her like, what does 253 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,320 collaboration actually mean? And to me, it's not just seeking 254 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,320 alignment because that's again, kind of a power dynamic. 255 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,520 Like I'm making this decision. Do you agree? 256 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:54,440 I don't agree with this decision. 257 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:55,800 Let's find another solution, right? 258 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,360 That's not so much collaboration. 259 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,240 To me, collaboration is more about this group collective, 260 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,080 coming together, hearing different ideas, being open to 261 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,160 ideas that are not your own. And I think that is actually the 262 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,560 most important part of collaboration, right? 263 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,480 Right. Because it's fundamental. 264 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,960 Because if you generally speaking, you are not open to 265 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,240 someone else having a better idea or a more effective idea or 266 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,560 any idea for that matter, then you are not actually a 267 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,960 collaborator. You're just a teller. 268 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,520 And that doesn't make for group impact as you've talked about 269 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,280 it. And so it made me think about 270 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,520 that conversation because I think it is important for 271 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:45,760 listeners or really any leaders out within HR, outside of HR to 272 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,920 think about how they collaborate so that they can have maximum 273 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:54,760 impact. And I don't know what kind of 274 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,440 inspired that thought within me in the last several days, but I 275 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,680 was, I think it was kind of out of need. 276 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,200 I was like, why are we, you know, why? 277 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,160 At least in my, I can only speak for myself. 278 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:11,400 Why am I in my role kind of confronted with this constant 279 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,599 alignment when really what I'm trying to affect change within 280 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,839 is, is around collaboration and how leaders listen to one 281 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:21,520 another and how they work together. 282 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,319 And that is it can be quite difficult, I think, to actually 283 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:29,560 achieve optimal collaboration because you have to like, leave 284 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,240 your ego at the door. You have to really be willing to 285 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,680 say, Oh, my idea is not as good as that one, and that's OK. 286 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,840 Yeah, Isn't that just the nub of it? 287 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,760 Because there's so much you've said there, Tracy. 288 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,080 I could go on for hours about this and I probably rein myself 289 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,480 in because it's such a fascinating topic. 290 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,960 So where do I go? Firstly, listening. 291 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,600 I think that that is the most undervalued skill in the 292 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,800 workplace. So we think, and I think it's 293 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,840 probably a function of our educational systems as well. 294 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,200 And having been a teacher, I think it's an interesting 295 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,440 paradigm, right? When you're in a classroom, you 296 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:16,720 are taught to sit there quietly and integrate information. 297 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,520 Whether you understand it or not. 298 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,320 It's really beside the point. You just have to sit and listen. 299 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,400 So the teachers on send, the students have to absorb. 300 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Now I'm, I'm, I'm oversimplifying because that's 301 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,240 not how it works. Actually, teachers care a lot. 302 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,960 And, and, and I, you know, I haven't been in that role know 303 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,160 how much responsibility that that entails. 304 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,800 But if we just simplify it, students are taught to listen 305 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,600 and then they enter, and they're also taught that there is value 306 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,480 in having the right answer, right? 307 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,600 We get judged on test scores, on admissions to university, so 308 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,520 many things all of these metrics are based on. 309 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,280 Can you tell me what I am asking you? 310 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,160 Can you give me the right answer to the question I am asking you? 311 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,520 And yet the ultimate paradox is that we get into the workplace 312 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,920 and we try to recreate those models. 313 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,600 So we think that when we go into rooms to collaborate, we have to 314 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,080 give people the right answer because that's what excellence 315 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,680 looks like. And actually, I have come to 316 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,440 appreciate that not having the answer is just as valuable as 317 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,160 having one. And that's just one. 318 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,480 There could be many answers to the same problem. 319 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,680 So I do think listening is critical. 320 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,160 I think the question you asked about what is collaboration 321 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,160 mean? I think I would, I would say 322 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,800 also, what does it look like, you know, in a, in a, in a team 323 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,200 meeting, what does collaboration look like? 324 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,400 Does it look like one person issuing instructions and the 325 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,600 others taking notes? Does it look like people 326 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,040 engaging in heated debate, people not engaging? 327 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,600 What does it look like? I'd challenge us all to think 328 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,200 about that. And then the third question I 329 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,360 would have is what does it feel like when you know you're 330 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:14,960 collaborating with someone else? How do you feel and how does the 331 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,040 other person feel? Because I think those softer 332 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,600 questions actually unlock something quite fundamental, 333 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,400 which is as humans, we need connection. 334 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,680 We want actually, we are fundamentally driven to 335 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,280 collaborate, but we've had it beaten out of us and so we're 336 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,320 having to relearn how to do it well. 337 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,160 Right, right. And I. 338 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:37,840 Just think there's it's. So true there's. 339 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,160 Room for the conversation to occur about to me, collaboration 340 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,520 feels like engaging in a thorny issue and kind of battling it 341 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,920 out. To you, collaboration might look 342 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,680 like everyone agreeing, let's talk about that. 343 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,640 Let's set the rule book, you know, kind of let let's make it 344 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,840 transparent and let's find the best way forward. 345 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,040 I think that's the growth path. Totally. 346 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:08,240 I, I really appreciate that you've dug in further on that 347 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,680 because now look at, look at the collaboration happening here. 348 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:17,800 So now it's made me think about how, how you're 100% right. 349 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:21,480 There's this measurement of excellence and it's it is 350 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,400 through competition and especially depending on where 351 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,880 you learn, where you grow up and from whom you learn that 352 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,600 competition is like, you know, amplified. 353 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,560 And I can, I mean, I have shared on the podcast a lot about my 354 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,200 own strengths and opportunities. And I tend to be a very 355 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,560 competitive person and which is great when you're in sports. 356 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,440 And it's something that can, while a strength like any other 357 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,360 strength can become an opportunity if you don't know 358 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:55,720 how to how and when to wield or unwield that strength, right? 359 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:00,200 And so I, as you were digging in further to this idea, I was 360 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,160 thinking about how competition and collaboration are kind of 361 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,200 antithetical to one another and they effectively work against 362 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,400 one another, right? Because again, this this ego 363 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,880 power trip issue that sometimes breaks down the ability for 364 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:22,640 teams to collaborate is based on or rooted in this feel for or 365 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,000 drive for competition. And you know, of course, they're 366 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,760 all of these. I'm sure you know them, you 367 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,520 know, personality tests and strengths finders and disc and 368 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,720 all these things. And as someone who measures 369 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,840 quite high in the competitive market and measurement, I should 370 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,240 say for myself, this is something that as I've, I've 371 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,480 been kind of working as an interim head of HR at my current 372 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,880 company in the absence of one for the better part of more than 373 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,360 half a year. And something that I've learned 374 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,680 through having to wield or unwield that strength is that 375 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,040 collaboration is also equally really important to me. 376 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,440 And they can't work in tandem. You can't be competitive with 377 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,800 someone you're collaborating with. 378 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,120 It just won't work. And I, I think this is where 379 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:16,760 sometimes the value in being open, having these 380 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,680 conversations, listening to listening, coming back to your 381 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,240 point, listening to someone who has a different belief or belief 382 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,560 system then you is extremely valuable. 383 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,480 And it's just a matter of having that self-awareness to be able 384 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,680 to say, oh, I'm feeling this way because I'm using my 385 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,120 competitiveness, but I need to lean into my collaboration or I 386 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:41,520 need to lean into whatever other strength or opportunity there 387 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,160 might be. It's so true. 388 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,120 You touched on self-awareness and I can't not, I can't let 389 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:53,000 that one go because I feel like the entire point of the through 390 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,040 line was to uncover the importance of self-awareness. 391 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,880 And what I learned while I was researching for the book is that 392 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,320 there are two types of self-awareness. 393 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,280 There is the self-awareness that's internally focused. 394 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,800 So how well do I know myself? But then there's the 395 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:09,800 self-awareness, which is externally focused. 396 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,920 How do others how, how well do others know me? 397 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,640 And I think the reason I bring that up is that that angle of 398 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,600 self-awareness is linked to collaboration. 399 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,080 When you're in a collaborative environment, you have to let 400 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,680 other people see you fully. Not, not, not in part, not just 401 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,560 the parts you want to share, but just who are you, right? 402 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,520 That takes trust, but it also takes what you did so 403 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,320 beautifully just there, which was to surface what it is about 404 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,560 you that you think the person needs to know in order that you 405 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,680 can both win. Because competition can actually 406 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,720 be. It could have a place in the 407 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,560 collaborative dynamic in that you can be competitive together. 408 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,560 You don't. Have to together. 409 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,240 Against each other, right together, you may actually win 410 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,480 faster and wins the wrong word, but like master the subject, but 411 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,480 you could there could be a place for it. 412 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,840 And this is this thing about the polarities in which we, we're in 413 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,520 a world, right, where I think we want, we're constantly moving 414 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:19,360 between good and bad, you know, hot and cold, left and right. 415 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,120 And I often wonder, can they coexist like they should be able 416 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,040 to, they have in the past. So maybe competition and 417 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,480 collaboration can coexist just about reframing what you mean by 418 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,520 competition. So am I competing with you or am 419 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,320 I competing against you? And those two things have 420 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,640 different results. That's. 421 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,760 A fabulous point, fabulous point. 422 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:49,000 And this is, I mean, effectively the beauty of, of, you know, 423 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,800 coming together and having different ideas and sharing 424 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,760 thoughts. Because otherwise, again, you're 425 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,080 only listening to what your own beliefs are or what others who 426 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,120 might agree with you are saying. And there isn't real growth in 427 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:02,880 that. So I, I really, I think that's a 428 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,360 great point that there is, there's so much Gray to live 429 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:10,320 within and we certainly know that within HR and you 430 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,480 certainly, I'm sure know that also just in the scope of your 431 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,680 role. And I think this whole 432 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,120 conversation has been really interesting and hopefully 433 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:20,680 thought provoking for the listeners to really start to 434 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,120 think about their own impact, how they, you know, again, kind 435 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:30,040 of convene as a group and, and win together or achieve together 436 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,000 whatever we want to say. And I, I, I really appreciate 437 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,600 all of the, the wisdom and the insights that you've brought to 438 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,320 the podcast. Thank you so much. 439 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,880 Thank you so much for having me Tracy, so much fun. 440 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,480 Likewise, likewise, it was I, I feel like I'm walking away 441 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,960 thinking about even more within that frame of that conversation 442 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440 around collaboration. And I really appreciate the, you 443 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,400 know, the, the mental juice that we need to get through our days 444 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,200 and weeks, right. So thank you so much. 445 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,360 And for all the listeners who want to connect with you, of 446 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,280 course, we'll have everything LinkedIn, the show notes, but 447 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,320 where can they connect with you? Learn more and also read your 448 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,760 book. You can find me on LinkedIn. 449 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,440 You can check out the website whichisfirstnamelastname.net so 450 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,360 that's Arch numberone.net and the books available wherever 451 00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,440 books are sold, so check it out. Love that, love that. 452 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:27,720 Amazing. Like I said, we'll have 453 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,440 everything, everything linked and it was really such a 454 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,760 pleasure having you on the podcast. 455 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,120 Thank you SO. Much thanks, Tracy. 456 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,000 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 457 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,880 so that you are the first to hear when an episode drops each 458 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,320 week and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 459 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,120 much you loved this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 460 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:48,600 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 461 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,560 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 462 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:51,960 and I'll see you next week.