You know how every home has that one spot, the place you think
about throughout the day where you can finally exhale?
For me, it's my bed. But here's The funny thing, it's
not just my bed anymore. Be honest.
Who in your house tries to sneak into your bed the most?
At mine, it's a toss up between my husband and my daughters.
And I get it. Like, it's technically my
husband's bed too, but it's my bed, you know?
But I get it because of the cozy earth sheets.
And I have the silk comforter and the linen duvet cover on the
silk comforter. It's like being the VIP lounge
of the house. It's like sleeping on a cloud
and being wrapped in a cloud hug.
And I just love it so much. In fact, as I'm sharing this
with you, I want to go and lie in bed right now.
Their sheets, as I've shared with you, are made from viscose
from bamboo, and they naturally Wick away heat and moisture, so
you sleep several degrees cooler.
That means even on those nights when it feels impossible to get
comfortable, I actually wake up refreshed.
Thank goodness because I need to wake up feeling that way.
And it's not just the blanket, of course.
You can get any of their blankets like the bubble cuddle
blanket or as I've shared, I have the silk comforter.
It's a really true full on experience.
The bubble cuddle blanket, in fact has such a plush texture
and mid weight feel that it's perfect for curling up in the
bedroom or draped across the couch as a cozy centerpiece for
all of your guests. And we're approaching fall,
which is my favorite season, and then winter is my second
favorite season. So that means that it is the
perfect time to cozy, as I like to say, your homes.
And honestly, it makes those mornings when you just can't get
out of bed even harder. And that's kind of the point
when life feels stressful. That's the spot I can't wait to
retreat to. My cozy earth bed feels
different. It's where my comfort and
comfort for my family lives. And once you try it, I guarantee
you, you'll never want to go back.
The best part of course is that there is 0 risk.
You get a 100 night sleep trial. So if you don't love it, you can
send it back, though I promise you won't want to.
There is also a 10 your warranty because once you feel this level
of comfort, you want it to last. So do yourself a favor, head to
cozyearth.com and use my code human HR for 40% off.
And if you get a post purchase survey, let them know that you
heard about cozy Earth right here because your bed should be
more than just a place to sleep. It should be your happy place
too. Cozy Earth makes that possible.
Welcome to the bringing the human back to human resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've
spent my entire professional career in HR Each week, we'll
explore the delicate balance between people and business with
the aim to reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes.
Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the
status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about
our mission to bring the human back to human resources.
Hi everyone, welcome back to the Bringing the Human Back to Human
Resources podcast. Thank you so much for being here
for another week. It has been so long since I've
just done a solo episode. Frankly, I think I know why I
think I think I do I, I think it's because I've had so many
guests reach out and it's hard to say no.
It's really hard. Like there are so many people
who have a lot of valuable things to say.
And I don't know, I just, I'm a yes girl.
I say yes to as much as possible.
Which part of problem? Part of my problem honestly is
that I say yes to so many things.
I have to. Maybe I have to be more of a no
girl. I don't know.
Anyway, I really miss kind of just having a kind of 1 to 1
where it's just me, myself and I and you, even though you are
listening. After I talked to myself for
however long I talked to myself. So I've really, I've really kind
of missed this. So if you want to hear more solo
episodes, let me know and I will make room for them.
And I will have to just say no a little bit more or I don't know,
maybe I have to do solo episodes on a different platform.
I don't know. I don't know.
This is totally uncharted territory for me having to
balance weekly episodes where I can't even like keep up.
There are not enough weeks in the year.
I have literally guests like planned through 2026.
It's kind of insane. But I really, I realize that I
do need to do morsel episodes. At least I enjoy them.
It's been a while. Anyway, this week I'm going to
talk about a bit of a heavy topic, actually a long time
listener. And I should, I should say
actually before I get into this, I'm going to put a trigger
warning on this episode. We're going to talk about
pregnancy and infant loss. And so if that's a, you know,
too sensitive a topic for you or, you know, triggering in any
way, I totally understand. I also think that as heavy a
topic as this is, I, my intention is not to make
everyone super sad, but rather to help, I don't know, maybe
inspire new ideas for benefits that you offer your employees.
Or maybe you've experienced this yourself or you know someone
who've experienced, who has experienced pregnancy or infant
loss and maybe you can help them or maybe you can help yourself.
And so just wanted to kind of get that kind of in front of you
first. And also this the reason why I'm
going to tell you a little bit about a long time listener who
reached out to me is because she shared with me that October is
pregnancy and infant loss awareness month, which I
actually was not aware of. And so it's really apartment
that we're talking about this now.
And so again, hopefully you choose to listen.
And if at any point it's too tough, I totally get it.
I totally understand. So let me tell you a little bit
about why we're talking about this.
This week, a long time listener and HR professional reached out
to share her extremely powerful and deeply personal story.
And she reached out to me over e-mail.
And she shared in her e-mail that earlier this year, she lost
her newborn son after giving birth super prematurely.
And through her own experience and navigating grief and
returning to work, she discovered a significant gap in
how organizations support or don't support parents who
experienced pregnancy or infant loss.
And she shared that while her own employer showed
extraordinary compassion. Which is really fabulous.
Many others are met with misunderstanding or even
insensitivity. And too often grieving parents
return to work before they're ready, expected to perform as if
nothing had changed in their lives without thoughtful
guidance from HR or leadership. And she hopes to raise awareness
within the HR community and suggested that this podcast
might be able to feature this topic, especially during
Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, which is the
month of October, which we are very deeply in at this point.
Her vision includes helping HR leaders and managers understand
how to approach loss that parents experience with care,
prepare for their return to work, and connect them with
meaningful resources beyond the standard EAP or employee
Assistance program handout. She's already begun using her
voice to educate others, coaching parents through their
return to work and helping them understand their rights.
And she's building a foundation in her son's memory to continue
this mission. Her message was filled with
compassion, purpose, and a desire to turn personal pain
into positive change for others. And that summary of her outreach
to me is barely scraping the surface.
I, I received her e-mail a number of months ago and I found
it quite difficult in the moment to respond.
And I thought about her every week since then and took me
quite a long time to respond, not because it didn't impact me,
but actually because of how much it impacted me as a mother.
I, I can't even imagine what she must have gone through, what she
continues to go through. And so I had to get to a place
where I could do this topic justice and also reach out to
her in a way that was that met her, her vulnerability, exactly
where I needed to meet her. So to the listener who reached
out, you know who you are. Thank you so much for your
e-mail and thank you for sharing your story and thank you for
allowing us to talk about a really important topic.
So let's break this down a little bit.
You know, of course, as mentioned, October is Pregnancy
and Infant Loss Awareness Month and actually October 15th, so
I'm recording this on October 16th.
But I learned in some of my research that October 15th is
the Remembrance Day, so Pregnancy and Infant Loss
Remembrance Day. And I think that it's probably
safe to say that all of us likely know someone who's been
impacted in some way by this by loss of of an unborn child or an
infant. And in HR, our work, of course,
is often about compliance and metrics and process and
strategy. But in times of loss, it's our
humanity that allows us to really help to navigate these
sometimes very uncharted waters with our colleagues, our teams.
And it's our humanity, I think, that matters most.
And so I want to explore how we in HR or other business leaders
can intentionally support parents who endure pregnancy
loss or infant death. And we can do that in looking at
policy and looking at culture and in looking at some legal
awareness is that maybe we're not super familiar with.
So the reality is, is that when it comes to pregnancy loss,
there are a number of categories or circumstances, let's say that
qualify as pregnancy loss. There's miscarriage, still
birth, failed IVF, failed adoption or surrogacy.
And it's way more common than even I realized, and way more
common than we probably would assume.
The emotional, mental and physical recovery is also often
underestimated. This listener who reached out
shared a little bit about how if she hadn't had the resources and
the the community around her, that she probably would have
left her job. And you know what?
I bet there are parents out there who struggle even in that
way and in in their own mental health.
I I can only imagine the the toll that it might take on
someone. And some parents, of course, may
likely require medical follow up, grief counseling, and even
accommodations for their mental, physical or emotional pain,
right? That's ultimately what we're
talking about when we talk about loss.
And yet at the same time, and this is also kind of looking at
what this particular listener wrote to me, so many parents
just returned to work and they returned to work too soon, or
they returned to work without support or without a community
or without whatever that support might look like.
And they might even be expected to just snap back and, you know,
get over it and, and maintain exactly what they were doing and
their performance and all of that.
But that's completely unrealistic.
And frankly, it's probably pretty damaging too.
And when I think about the implication of someone
experiencing this type of loss and then relying on their
employer to understand how to navigate that loss with them,
there's a lot of risk in my mind because there's so much
opportunity for a poor response from leadership and a poor
response from HR. And I even think about things
that I've heard when people have had loss, like, you know, your
bereavement, your standard bereavement that you, you know,
see more maybe more frequently or that you hear about more
frequently, which is loss of a parent, loss of a spouse, loss
of a sibling, whatever that might be, right?
And there there are leaders or HR leaders who might say, well,
you know, they should get over it at this point.
They're taking too long, they're taking too much time out of
work. And I just worry about the risk
of that happening when, you know, not everyone is a parent,
not everyone experiences this. And maybe they lack compassion
for this type of loss that someone might be experiencing.
So this ultimately the risk there is that it can add to
additional trauma, frankly, for these folks who experience this
type of loss. And one of the the things that I
think is really important to note is that, and I'm looking
for the statistic here is that one in four pregnancies ends in
loss. I was totally shocked to read
that statistic from when from the e-mail that this listener
shared with me and sent to me and shocked to continue to read
about it, even though like I already read it, right?
She sent it to me. I read it.
I was like, whoa, that's insane. And then to continue to see this
metric in different ways. You know, sometimes you, you
think about one in four, it's like, what is that 25%?
You put four people in a room, one person experienced it.
You know, statistically speaking, it's just really,
really stark. And I think that when we think
about that, it helps us hopefully to understand the
prevalence and the importance of supporting people who might
experience this or might have experienced this in their lives.
And I think part of helping and supporting people in our first
of all leaders and HR leaders might well might experience this
themselves, right? So there is a, an element here
where again, we can kind of understand this HR is also the
employee type of, you know, predicament, right?
Where maybe someone who's, who's the decision maker on some of
these things is also the, the person impacted by these, these
things that we either roll out, whether they're benefits or
leave options, whatever that might be.
But there there's a practical framework that I think we can
apply here. So first, when we find out that
someone has experienced loss, there's of course this element
of like how do we support them in taking the time that they
need? And we'll talk about that from a
regulatory standpoint and you know, law specific standpoint
and from AUS framework. But let's assume they've they've
gotten that support, right. There's the stage of what
happens before they return and while they're on leave, what
that looks like. And the the biggest takeaways I
think are that we have to stay in contact in a compassionate
way. We shouldn't be overbearing.
We shouldn't be micromanaging. We should probably ask how they
prefer communication, how frequently they prefer
communication. We should be offering
flexibility for medical or mental health appointments and
set up a one-on-one meeting when they're ready to return and give
them a bit of control over their timing and their boundaries and
what they need. And ultimately, when it shifts
from the pre return to actually returning the, the having a
private conversation before they rejoin, which hopefully is
focused on a ramp up process. And you know this, if there
should be a, a collaborative approach to this ask.
And frankly, this is important even when someone's returning
from maternity or paternity leave, that when people come
back, there has to be this collaborative.
OK, what does your ramp backup look like?
How, what's reasonable? Are you coming back part time to
start? Are you coming back reduced
hours? Are you coming back full time,
like full speed ahead? What does that look like?
And to clarify if also if their loss is going to be something
that they plan to communicate or that they want to communicate
because this is a medical condition, a medical
circumstance. And so it's important that
confidentiality is considered here as well.
There is definitely no one-size-fits-all approach to
handling this. And everything kind of relies on
this again, this collaboration and how the person feels
returning when they're on the job and when they're back.
There should be check insurance for sure, you know there maybe
we consider for these folks having mental health support
schedule flexibility, therapy times, things like that, reduced
workload. And also there has to be some
element where managers are trained on how to listen, how to
validate feelings and how to avoid harmful phrases.
And this, I find, is best when or best executed when managers
are given a bit of like a talk track or scripts because that's
how you can kind of coach a little bit.
And it also helps them to understand the empathetic
approach that they need to take. And then, you know, naturally
there's this additional layer here where we can think about
reproductive loss, pregnancy, infant loss in bereavement and
leave policies explicitly stating those things.
In my research, I was finding that when those types of losses
are explicitly stated, people are generally a little bit more
open about saying they need that time because otherwise it's kind
of like, oh, bereavement is for parents, spouses, siblings and
maybe whoever else, right? But if it doesn't say, you know,
reproductive loss, that maybe it feels like they're a little bit
isolated in that in that sense and that they they're not
covered by that type of policy. And so creating that type of
explicit policy can potentially help in people feeling more
supported. Depending on the size of your
company, if you can create peer networks or a a lost parent
support group, this is also something that can really help
people as they acclimate to their new way of living.
And then also, of course, sharing external resources like
grief support, lost specific therapist, other, you know,
types of group. Therapies outside of work or
group networks outside of work that can also be really helpful.
And again, a formal lost leave policy or policies around
bereavement time for reproductive loss can help again
signal this element of psychological safety and
normalizes the conversation. And finally, when we think about
communication and training, you know, there's an element here
where we have to train ourselves and we have to learn ourselves
how to best support people like we're doing today.
I've learned a lot, for example. But then also how do we take
that learning and then train others?
How do we train HR and people, leaders and other, you know,
people within the business? Maybe every year, maybe every
other year, depending on the the need.
And naturally as you look to update your handbooks and your
policies, including things like this can be really important.
And, and it is really important. Maybe there's an opportunity to
invite a guest speaker, whether it's a parent or a grief
counselor. Because again, when we think
about the prevalence of one in four pregnancies ending in loss,
that's pretty significant. And it's, it probably suffice to
say that you'll have a, you'll have a cohort interested in
hearing more, especially if we think about, OK, you know, 50,
maybe 50% of the workforce is female.
If one in four women are experiencing pregnancy loss,
it's pretty sizable. So let's shift gears a little
bit and talk about some of the legal and regulatory
considerations here. Again, this is AUS focus.
I know there are countries around the world that do a
really good job of looking at reproductive loss as part of
their regulations and part of their considerations in terms
of, you know, where the the law protects people.
But it is definitely essential for HR, no matter what
nationality, to understand what the law requires and where
organizations can go above and beyond that regulation.
So of course, from a federal national level, FMLA or the
Family and Medical Leave Act does frequently qualify.
Not frequently, but pregnancy loss does qualify or often
qualifies as a serious health condition.
I think that it probably depends on where in the pregnancy it
qualifies. I think that's why the the
language says often qualifies. So if this is something that
applies to you or you're interested in learning more, I
would certainly encourage you to reach out to your benefits
provider to learn a little bit more benefits and leave
provider. But pregnancy loss often
qualifies as a serious health condition, making the employee
eligible for up to 12 weeks of unpaid job protected leave if
they meet the eligibility. Eligibility conditions, of
course, mean that the employer has over 50 employees within 75
miles and that the employee themselves have worked 1250
hours and they've been employed for at least one year.
So if all of those things are met and the pregnancy loss
qualifies as a serious health condition, then they likely
would be eligible. There's also the Pregnant
Workers Fairness Act, or PWFA, which requires employers with 15
or more employees to provide reasonable accommodations for
pregnancy, childbirth and related medical conditions,
including those arising from a pregnancy loss, unless there's
undue hardship on the business. Naturally, any business can
argue that there's undue hardship.
However, I would hope that businesses would see this type
of loss as one that, you know, it would benefit them to make
the accommodation and leave or time off can be an
accommodation, for example, if it's reasonable.
And reasonability, of course, as we know, is very subjective
based on the business and based on the needs of the business.
But this is where you should know your rights and you should
know exactly what you might need so that you can, you know, lean
into the the to these acts that are set out to protect you and
provide you support. There's also the Pregnancy
Discrimination Act, PDAA, different kind of PDA to add
some levity here. And so the Pregnancy
Discrimination Act says that miscarriage or other pregnancy
related loss is considered a pregnancy related medical
condition. Employers cannot discriminate or
penalize employees for needing recovery or leave.
So this does protect people from discrimination.
And so when we think about this, I'm talking a lot about
pregnancy and pregnancy loss, pregnancy discrimination, things
like that. If it comes to down to someone
experiencing infant loss, this is where bereavement policies
are going to be really important.
And we'll talk a little bit about that.
But I do think, you know, this is, you know, this is where
there's a bit of a Gray area because infant loss, any kind of
loss can then result in, you know, mental health challenges,
struggles, right, physical, mental and emotional, frankly.
And that's where then if that person you know is experiencing
challenges mentally, physically, emotionally, that they could be
accommodated for those things. So the accommodation for
pregnancy related loss is more medical because of the person
who is experiencing the pregnancy and then experiencing
the loss as a result. Not always as a result,
obviously, but one in 4 * 1 in four pregnancies are
experiencing, one in four pregnancies are resulting in
loss. So these people are experiencing
this fairly commonly, and then should someone experience infant
loss, it would be more about their own, probably their own
medical condition as a result of that loss, whereas the loss is
considered a medical condition. Hopefully that makes sense.
It makes sense in my head, but I hope I'm articulating that OK.
Also, unlike some countries, there is no federal requirement
in the US for bereavement leave in private employment.
So this is where, again, when we think about companies going
above and beyond, they would make an impact here to include,
you know, bereavement leaves or policies that go outside of what
the government might required require, which the government
requires nothing. So anything you give is better
than nothing. Some states have enacted
statutes that explicitly include or may be interpreted to include
reproductive loss or bereavement leave.
And so a few examples are that California has a reproductive
loss leave and they require employers with five or more
employees to provide up to five days of protected leave for a
reproductive loss event like miscarriage, stillbirth, failed
adoption or unsuccessful assisted reproduction within the
the three first three months of the event.
So within the there's a a loss in a particular month, three
months within that that three months, that's when they would
be able to receive the five days of protected leave.
The leave may be non consecutive and employees can use accrued
sick or vacation time. And the law does prohibit
retaliation or discrimination for exercising those rights.
In Illinois, they have a Family Bereavement Leave Act, which has
been effective since January 1st, 2023, as a matter of fact.
And it expands on prior bereavement leaves leave laws,
excuse me, to cover pregnancy loss, failed adoption,
surrogacy, etcetera. And employees ultimately may
take up to 10 working days or two weeks of unpaid leave to
grieve or make arrangements. And employers can request
reasonable documentation, of course, but employees don't need
to disclose the nature of the event.
In Oregon, there is a requirement for employers with
25 or more employees to provide up to two weeks of unpaid
bereavement leave per event. And those days of leave or weeks
of leave, I should say, must be taken within 60 days.
So again, at the, you know, when the loss event happens within
that first two months, I'm going to continue with a couple other
states here. Washington state says that all
employers must provide paid bereavement leave in certain
cases, including pregnancy loss. And in Maryland, employers with
15 or more employees must allow the use of a crude leave for
bereavement. In other states like Colorado,
Tennessee, etcetera, they have introduced or debated
bereavement or reproductive lost leave laws.
So I didn't go too, too deep into every state because there
are 50, but I would encourage you to wherever you have
employees, look at what their their reproductive loss laws
are, what their bereavement loss, bereavement leave laws are
so that you can best support the teams that you have in those
locations. And if you yourself need support
or need, you know, access to this type of protection, you
should certainly know the the rights that you have based on
the, the state that you reside in.
In many states, leave under bereavement statutes statutes is
unpaid. As we can understand, however,
employees can often use accrued paid leave, and this is pretty
standard. A lot of companies do offer paid
bereavement leave, although maybe it's a little bit more
minimal in the number of days. But I, I would argue that
pregnancy and infant loss probably require a few more days
than your typical bereavement leave because it is so not.
I mean, certainly loss can be very unexpected in any case,
right? Unexpected, untimely, all of
those things. But it does maybe feel a little
bit different if it's pregnancy or infant related.
But maybe that's just because I'm in the throes of this topic
right now. But in general, when someone
experiences a loss of any kind that is premature, unexpected,
untimely, there should, you know, there should probably be
exceptions to some of the rules that companies have.
Like if a company has five paid bereavement days, well, maybe if
someone needs 15, maybe you just give them 15, have them use
their sick time, have them use their PTO.
That's fine. But you know, maybe go above and
beyond for people when we think about some of the legal
considerations here. I just want to mention that if
an employee's grief or recovery qualifies as a serious health
condition, denying their leave or accommodation requests under
the FMLA or Americans with Disability Act, ADA, could lead
to legal exposure. So make sure that you are really
thinking through everything and potentially taking a partner
either in an additional HR partner or a legal partner.
Mental health or depression post lost weight may also entitle
accommodations under disability law, which is kind of what I was
talking about when it came to the infant loss side of things.
There's a lot of intersectionality in this topic,
so be really mindful as you make your decisions so that you can
make sure that you're not only compliant but also reasonable.
And when it comes to documentation, some states allow
or require reasonable documentation, whereas others do
not require proof. So be really clear about the
state specific requirements here.
And then finally, denial of leave, a demotion, negative
treatment after a loss may all violate the Pregnancy Workers
Fairness Act, PWFA, the Pregnancy Disability Act, PA, or
state anti discrimination statutes.
So again, be really, really specific, intentional, clear
about any decision that you might make.
And you know, when we think about kind of coming full circle
to how we help other leaders navigate supporting their teams,
I think there are a few things to just kind of remember and
keep in mind. Again, one in four pregnancies
ends in loss. And when we think about the
language that we attribute to someone is sharing with us that
they've experienced this, language matters.
Avoid phrases like you should be over this.
Avoid phrases like you can move on.
Instead, say, I'm so sorry or take the time you need or how
can we best support you? You know, this is frankly,
nobody cares about what you think.
Everybody cares about how that person feels.
So the business leader in this context has to remove their own
needs from this situation and think about what their person
needs, You know, whether there's a, when we think about the
cultural elements here, maybe there's a remembrance e-mail,
maybe you send flowers, maybe there's some sort of
acknowledgement for this loss, a safe space meeting, something
like that. I know in my experiences, you
know, helping people navigate loss, we send flowers or we make
a donation or we plant a tree. Like there's so many things that
you can do that don't costs $1,000,000 and really make a
huge impact for that person. Also, normalize referring people
to resources. Provide names of therapists,
grief groups, support groups, employee resource groups, have
hire someone that they can talk to.
I mean, there's so many things that we can do to refer our
teams to the right people who can help them navigate these
types of losses, celebrate their courage, acknowledge that
returning to work after such a loss is an act of strength.
And it doesn't mean the pain is gone.
And it doesn't mean it's going to be any easier, but that
they've returned. And this is, you know, something
that they're navigating every single day.
And that acknowledgement will probably help them as well.
And then finally, you know, thinking about how we can
support people before they ask for support, it's through policy
changes and transparency. Make your loss and bereavement
policies visible, clearly worded, accessible in handbooks
or the intranet that you might have.
Include pregnancy, infant, or reproductive loss in your
policies and encourage continuous learning.
Revisit the policies annually. Solicit feedback from employees
who've navigated loss to figure out what could we be doing
better? What could we be doing
different? What could we be doing?
All of those things should help to enable people navigating the
circumstance to feel most supported and not feel as this
particular listener did, in such a way where if that didn't
exist, that they wouldn't be able to return to work.
You know, thinking about again, the magnitude and the
prevalence, we need all of these people experiencing this type of
loss to feel supported. Otherwise, there's a huge,
there's a huge gap at the in the workplace, there's a huge loss
in talent because companies failed to support their people.
So hopefully this topic, while certainly heavy in its weight,
helped you to think a little bit differently maybe about your own
policies. It's actually a really good time
to think about this because it is the end of the calendar year
and generally companies start to look at their policies and
handbooks now for a fresh start in the new year.
And so maybe this is maybe adding one phrase like
reproductive loss in your bereavement policy, or adding an
additional policy or adding a bereavement leave policy.
All of those things can really go a long way.
So hopefully you're walking away with some new information.
Maybe you're walking away feeling supported yourself.
Maybe you're walking away understanding someone you know
or a loved one a little bit more deeply or maybe a colleague more
deeply. And so with that, I really just
want to say thank you again to this particular listener who
suggested the topic and who shared her stories so
vulnerably. It's allowed us to talk about a
really important subject and hopefully educate, like I said,
not just myself, but others who have listened to this episode as
well. So thank you all so much for
tuning in this week. Tons of great episodes ahead.
And like I said, lots of guest episodes, but really amazing
guests who are bringing a ton of value, I think, to the podcast.
So please leave your comments in the whether you're listening on
Spotify or YouTube, if you're watching this on Spotify or
YouTube, send me an e-mail at contact at hrtracy.com rate
review, subscribe, whatever you have to do.
Let me know your feedback. Thank you so much for tuning in
and thank you again to my listener for sharing her story.
We will chat soon. Take care everybody see you next
week. Hey, just before you go, don't
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Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.