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That's quickbooks.com/payroll. Welcome to the Bringing the
human back to human Resources podcast.
I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've spent my entire professional
career in HR Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance
between people and business with the aim to reconnect the two and
create meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the
podcast. Thank you so much for being here
for another week. And this week we're talking a
lot about expanding hiring beyond the US borders, which
tends to be a pretty important, an interesting critical topic,
especially considering so many people kind of react to that, I
guess that topic sometimes with a little bit of fear, a little
bit of uncertainty. And so we're going to talk a
little bit about why expanding beyond our, you know, maybe even
our local borders is a really good strategy for business.
So first and foremost, let me introduce to you my guest for
this week, who is Laura Tolhok. She is the Founder and Principal
Consultant at Essential HR, where she leads a team of
experts delivering clear results focus solutions to businesses
facing HR challenges. With over 20 years of
experience, Laura has helped companies in the restaurant,
food service and retail industries improve performance
through pragmatic, high volume decision making.
As a Certified HR Leader, or CHRL, Laura specializes in
guiding managers through complex HR issues, providing actionable
solutions, and building confidence in the team.
In the teams her company works with, she thrives navigating
complex issues that arise in fast-paced industries and
recognizes the tenacity required for a company, large or small,
to be successful. Laura, thank you so much for
joining me this week and for being here.
Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
Of course, And you know, I, I, you heard what I kind of let off
with a lot of people do kind of feel this sense of fear.
Oh my gosh, am I going to lose my job by via outsourcing?
This is something I hear a lot about.
I've heard it throughout my experience as an HR professional
myself, where I've seen jobs go from US based roles to outside
of the US. And so we are going to focus
this conversation on Canada because that is where you are
and that's your area of expertise.
But what is your initial thought around that that that sense of
fear and uncertainty that people have with regard to talent
expansion, so to speak, in global hiring?
Yeah, especially in this day and age where people are looking for
new markets, right? Companies are looking for new
markets. They've expanded where they are
and they're finding opportunities in different
countries. So specifically, you know, with
our friends South of the border, Canada's really close now,
political issues aside, typically it's been a very easy
relationship. So a lot of companies from
Canada are opening up operations in the US and vice versa.
And So what we've been seeing on the Canadian side is a lot of
people being hired by U.S. companies using USHR principles.
And I can, I can name actually three people off the top of my
head where they're like, hey, can you take a look at this
offer letter that I got? And when it comes to employment
law, even though the imaginary border is very thin, the
employment law is very, very different.
Canada works on a very big risk management in when it comes to
employment law and employment contracts.
And so we thought what a great opportunity it was to start
talking to, you know, our HR friends and so to the border to
say, Hey, guys, you guys know your systems in your state and
in your country. Let us tell you a little bit
about what's going on here because we want to help you
protect your businesses when you need to find salespeople in
Ontario or when you need to find, you know, boots on the
ground in Alberta because it's a bit of a different game here.
And we want to make sure you're covering your butt, especially
at the start of the relationships, which is
employment letters and employment contracts.
Yeah, definitely. I worked at a company that had a
pretty large cohort in Canada. We had operations in Canada,
stores in Canada. I worked in retail at the time
and I learned so much about employment law there and so much
about managing a workforce in Canada.
And it is very different. And you'll hear, I'm sure you've
heard this, a lot of Americans will compare British Columbia,
the province of British Columbia to California in terms of
employment law and Ontario, the province of Ontario compared to
New York in employment law. And I think for those who are
listening who haven't had experience or exposure with
Canadian provinces, you know, there's, so there's like there,
there's a local law just like we have in the US And then there's
a provincial law just like in the US, if we consider state to
state law and, and differences there.
And then of course you have the, the national level laws.
And it's really interesting because you know, of course
we're all part of North America, but the laws are so different
and the rights for employees are so different and there is a
difference in terms of the exchange rate too.
So there is sometimes this, I know we'll talk about the pros
and cons in terms of this global expansion beyond the US, but
there is sometimes an added benefit for US based companies
to find really strong talent just as they would find in the
US but at a lower price point in Canada.
And obviously that happens in other countries too.
But in Canada you have similar to the US like talent across the
board and and again sometimes at that lower price point because
of the cost of living differences and.
Overall salaries which we can get into right in a little bit
of. Exactly.
You know, I'm curious when, when it comes to a company that is
like thinking of establishing a business entity or operations in
Canada, what are some pitfalls that they need to think about
or, or maybe it's not even a pitfall.
What are, what are things that they need to know could impact
their operations? I asked this because the at the
start of my career, I worked in Target and Target at one time
did attempt to expand to Canada and it didn't work.
They, they tried it, it didn't work.
They pulled out of Canada. We were so sad about that.
We still are sad, I know. I'm honestly, I'm kind of sad
about it because it's like one of those things where it's like
if Target doesn't can't do it like you can, right?
But The thing is, you can like they, they could.
I think it, it sounds, it seemed to me at least, and it sounds as
I reflect on this, that the there wasn't a clear from their
perspective. I'm totally assuming here
because I was not involved in the project at all.
I worked in stores in New Jersey that they potentially did not
have a full understanding of all of the operational differences
in Canada versus in the US And I think one of the challenges was
distribution and also the the actual ability to get product
from one place to another, you know, and all of that so.
I think in that case, from from what I understand, it was in
stock positioning because you go to Target to buy one thing, but
you come up with eight. And if there's not seven other
things on the shelf that you didn't know, that you didn't
need or that you did need, then you're not doing the you're not
doing Target, right? Because I agree.
I agree. So, yeah, no, we were very sad
about that. But there is a marked difference
in how the employment relationships are to start in in
Canada. So some of those pros that we're
talking about, why would you come across the border?
Why would you be looking for talent in Canada?
So like we said, if I were to start hiring and recruiting
somebody in Utah, I don't really know the culture and the systems
that people go to. So for example, in Ontario, if
you're looking to hire somebody and you want to post a job,
you'd go to Indeed. That's just how it is.
I don't even like Indeed. I can try eight other job boards
that I actually prefer. But I know as the candidate say,
where do you go to look for a job?
It's Indeed. I don't know where they go in
Utah. So when you start that
relationship, you're like, where, where are people going to
go look for these roles? The second piece of, of why
you're looking to understand the cultural differences is the way
people interact is going to be different based off of geography
and based off of relationships. And, and for the most part,
we're a pretty friendly country, but it's a lot easier when
people already understand the tone and the pace of the
operations. If you go out east to Halifax,
Prince Edward Island, New Brunswick, slow your roll
because nothing goes fast out in those provinces.
If you're downtown Toronto, you're wondering, you know, what
happened in the last five minutes because it's gone.
And, and I remember being at a, a Starbucks a couple years ago
out out east and being like, wow, like we're really not going
anywhere fast today. And that's just a culture.
So if you don't understand that and you come in as a as a High
Roller and let's get things done, you're going to miss the
mark in terms of the overall pace of the province.
So there's a few things that you're looking at that just give
you an advantage to hiring from from local talent.
The other piece to this is that what we've seen when people are
hiring Canadians for American companies is they're still using
American employment contracts. Oh, big mistake.
Employment contract law in Canada is so sticky.
I mean as nature professional, we don't even like it because
we're like, well everything can change on a dime.
Termination contracts in Canada are very, very particular.
So we don't have at will employment.
I It is actually quite costly to terminate people in Canada if
you don't have a really strong employment contract with a
really strong termination clause, right?
And things in your employment contract can outright discount
your whole employment contract. So if you have a few words in
there, for example, like drug testing, if you say you know
you're subject to drug testing in your employment contract in
Canada, it negates your whole employment contract.
So you might as not have one at all.
And then things turn to common law.
So common law in, in, I don't know if you guys use that term
across the border, but we do. We do.
Yeah. So now you're not looking at one
or two weeks pay in lieu of notice.
You're looking at months on end. And it's really up to the courts
to decide what you should be paying this person based off of
age, seniority, their, their level within the organization.
So everything starts with that employment contract.
So sometimes we've seen people come to us and like, hey, can I,
I just got this job. Can can you show me?
Can you take a look at my contract?
I was like leave it, leave it as is because this is like this.
Nolan Void. Basically, it's Nolan.
Void here. So if anything happens to you as
an employee, you got a ticket to write for yourself here because
you can really go after what what you want as an employee,
which is the second piece of the whole aspect is employees are
given the benefit of the doubt and the bias.
It's not it's not employer driven, it is employee driven.
So courts always side to the employee and that's why that
relationship has to start out well.
Right, right. No, that's really helpful and
it's interesting because pretty much every state except for a
handful in the United States are at will states.
So it's a very different experience while as as true as
it is that, you know, employment can end in the United States at
any time when you're in an Atwell state, there is of course
this litigiousness associated. And so companies are always
advised to make decisions that have support that's sound in
terms of whether it's documentation, conversations,
whatever, so that they can at least protect themselves because
there isn't really anything stopping an employee from
pursuing litigation against a company, even if it is an
outwell state. Although outside of New York,
California, maybe Massachusetts and a couple other states, it's
not super employee friendly. Now obviously I share that as
an, an antithetical example to Canada.
And I, I am fully aware of how employee friendly Canada is,
especially in British Columbia and Ontario, but really all
over, across the across the board, right, Yeah, across the
board. The what's what's interesting, I
think if I'm recalling correctly, if if someone has
received an offer letter but their background check doesn't
clear, you can't just not hire them anymore.
There are certain stipulations there even, right?
Like you have to have certain verbiage, at least in the offer
letter that constitutes the contingency, right?
Is that so true? Because you can't.
You can't necessarily discriminate based off of record
of offense if that record of offense doesn't directly impact
the role that they're doing so drunk driving sure you you don't
you can't be a warehouse driver for us drunk driving for a
cashier doesn't matter. So you have to prove that the
offense actually has relevance to the current role.
Theft can't be the cashier probably can be the warehouse
driver. It's a little it's it's not fun.
It's not fun when those conversations come up and
especially when you're trying to decide if someone's the issue 30
years ago is relevant to today, which depending on the company
you're working for and how much grace people have.
Yes, I don't know, right, right. No, that's totally fair.
I think that example, while it's relevant in both countries, the
US and Canada, I think I share it because there is this common
mistake made where it's like, Oh well in the US, like, you know,
the agreements have to be so sound like, you know, if it
works here, it's going to work there.
And that's just super, super not correct.
And it really pays to get support in whatever country
someone is looking to expand to, to ensure that from the moment
these processes begin, like you said, at the start of employment
with that contract, with the offer letter, whatever agreement
someone might sign to ensure that those things are airtight.
Because it can be so difficult. And you mentioned before you
know the termination clauses and payment in lieu and there is a
whole termination process to be considerate of when when you are
are employing someone in Canada, because in the US there's no
requirement even in New York and California to pay any severance
whatsoever. You don't have to give any.
This is going back to the at will, you know, at will state
requirements. There's absolutely no
requirement for notice. There's no requirement for
payment other than the regular wages that are owed.
A lot of companies do offer severance and they offer that
severance in exchange for a release of claims.
Yeah, Yep. Sign, sign the rights away in
the the severance agreement in Canada, it is a little bit
different. You can have severance
agreements, I believe if I'm recalling correctly.
However those are a little bit different.
And even regardless of that you do potentially owe either notice
or termination pay or potentially both depending on
the circumstances. And so that adds to it.
Yeah, a lot of people would say, well, this sounds like a
headache. I'm just going to subcontract
somebody, not make them employee.
I'm just going to subcontract somebody, which sounds like a
great idea. The problem is if you hire
somebody from any province in Canada, they are you're subject
to the laws of that province. So you're like, yeah, but I
hired them in Arkansas. They hired them under
accompanying. Doesn't matter.
That's not how our government sees it.
So great. You hired yourself a
subcontractor, All is good as long as everything is good.
That's a in any subcontractor relationship.
All is good till it's not. So all of a sudden you're like
business is down, subcontractor isn't bringing in what we said
that they needed to do. We're going to cut this
relationship because it's a subcontractor.
It's clean, but it's not So up here, unfortunately, we have, we
can call them subcontractors or contractors or, or you know,
arm's length employees. But then we started with this
new thing called dependent contractors.
So if your subcontractor gets more than 75% of their income,
give or take, so really they're working for you as a almost like
an employee, they're called a dependent contractor.
And then the employee says, well, I don't like the way you
just got rid of me. This is my sole income.
What am I supposed to do? They go to the courts and the
courts say, well, you weren't really a subcontractor, you're
more like a dependent contractor because of these 8 out of 10
reasons. So then the company is now
required to pay the severance and termination, and there's
really no calculation to know how much.
Would. Say you company, you decide how
much you think you owe them and we'll tell you if we think
you're right. It's kind of how it's running
right now. But then in in addition to that,
if they're deemed actually an employee because their work was
really like an employee, they were.
They were performance managed like an employee.
They were told when to show up. They were given all the
resources like an employee. They weren't in charge of their
own income per SE, like they were told.
You get 20 bucks an hour and that's how much you get.
If they were actually kind of like an employee, then the
government's going to say actually they weren't a
subcontractor. You still owe them.
You still owe them severance and you owe them all their vacation
over time, and you're going to need to pay employment insurance
and see Canadian Pension Plan on all of that 'cause they weren't
really a subcontractor, they were an employee.
So that line is also super sticky.
Yeah, you can't really. Work around it.
Yeah, the classification issues are huge here too.
I mean, I think companies do it often.
They misclassify people often. It's easy to do.
And that's interesting. I didn't know about depending
contractors in Canada. Very interesting.
Yeah, it's a fun one. It's like, well, how much are we
supposed to? You figure it out?
We'll figure it out if we like it.
We'll see. What sticks at I'll change the
conversation to talk about some of the positives because I can I
we can go a long time on all the differences that can cause.
Stress. We have an excellent workforce.
We have an excellent, we have a great education system and
really well educated individuals coming out of our education
system. I was speaking to another
colleague and we were talking about in the US and we were
talking about the differences of pay rates.
And I think this, I think he was in New York and he said you
can't get a middle manager under 90,000 right now.
Like if you want a strong middle manager, you can't get one under
90,000. I'm like, I could probably find
a few between 7060 and 80 easily.
Like that's kind of where the middle managers are sitting in
most operations. So you can get a strong
individual and then you tack on, I think we're at about 3235%
exchange rate right now. I think it was up to 4045 a
couple months ago. So if you take the tack on that
bit of a discount on it, you're like, well, this, this could
work out well for me. And the great thing on this side
of the border is that person gets a job offer, say for ninety
100,000 when they've been making 70 or 80 and they think the
world is great. They think their company is
great. It's a win win for everybody all
around. It builds the loyalty, it builds
that engagement factor. So when you look at that piece
of it, when you're looking at really well educated individuals
who are strong workers and who you can kind of get for a
discounted rate thanks to that exchange rate, whose salaries
are already lower than a lot of the metropolitan states in the
US, there is a benefit to bringing in that cultural, that
cultural experience and having boots on the ground across the
border. Yeah, definitely, definitely
there. I mean there is a, a, certainly
an, an intrinsic value there. And I think I said it earlier
that the, the talent pool is very wide reaching in Canada.
It's similar to the US. You can find people to fulfill a
job in pretty much any title in any role in any industry across
the US and in Canada, likely because of the education
systems. You see that in other countries
also, but there are also other countries that are really more
specialized, whether it's like engineering or maybe even more
broadly STEM. Whereas in the US and Canada
you're seeing more of that breadth across the board and
availability. Like you, there are people who
are actively seeking those roles.
I think sometimes what's can, what can be difficult in the US
is not only the salary component, but also how quickly
people are, yeah, like growing in their roles.
And we're seeing, at least in the US, I'm sure it's the same
pretty much all over. You know, the, the number of
generations in the workforce is like the largest ever.
We still have boomers, for example, the boomer generation
in the workforce, which means that there are fewer of those
higher level roles available. And I have seen at least in
Canada that sometimes filling those mid level roles, which can
sometimes be very difficult to fill in the US because either
the salary is not right or the talent is not right.
That in Canada there's more availability potentially.
Of course, it depends on industry and things like that,
but there is there's so much value in my from my perspective
in looking at hiring globally. And I think we've done so much
of this since COVID because a lot of companies went remote or
have thought about their hiring strategies differently.
And going back to one of my initial statements that a lot of
people feel this sense of fear and uncertainty.
There's so much value in the world expanding and roles being
available globally. And instead of us being afraid
of our roles being outsourced or whatever term we want to use, we
have to see the opportunity to, especially for those of us, for
those of us in HR, learn about those other countries, learn
about the talent pool in other countries, the the employment
laws in other countries so that we can also upscale and expand
our knowledge to be able to support, support global teams.
I mean, that's something on a resume that people would, I
think people would love to see and would love to be able to add
to their resumes is this global experience.
So I think, I think all of the positives that you shared are
really intrinsic and make for a really cohesive hiring
experience and strategy too. And you know, one thing that
sometimes I find at least that companies in the US don't always
think about is also that Montreal or Quebec specifically,
if you have this whole other element where you have to have
the language that is spoken in Quebec, you have to have French
Canadian like posters. So just like US, just like I
should say, English posters in the US and other parts of
Canada, you also have to have things posted in French and same
with agreements and things like that.
And, and Richford also very. Yeah, it's a very unique
reality. Very.
Different culture, very different culture in Quebec than
even in New Brunswick. In Ontario, Which?
Kind of. Bookend them and we even find
that people in Quebec want Quebec people.
So if you come. In like more insular.
Right, Yeah. If if you come in, as you know,
a western Albertan to Quebec, it's, it's not going to work out
well for you because it's probably very similar to the US.
The western provinces are very specific in their needs and how
they do things. And you get this inviting of
well, that's Toronto and this is Calgary.
And we don't do things like Toronto.
So you tell Toronto. So they, they, you have to think
differently with the cultural differences.
If you're going to invest in people across the border, make
sure you're investing where it's needed because those cultural
differences are actually surprisingly real, despite the
fact you're like, we're all, we're all North American, but
how we operate and how you get in and how you make an impact
changes. Yes, I think sometimes maybe
it's like an American thing, but I think sometimes when we
understand that countries are English speaking predominantly,
right, that it's like the culture is the same English
speaking country. You can see this, you know, the
UK is the same English speaking, but there's no truth to that.
I mean, there's so many cultural differences just in the US alone
and English is not even like a formally recognized national
language. And when we think about like in
Canada, for example, an English speaking country in North
America, there are such significant differences.
And I think a lot of it comes down to the government.
I mean, even in terms of the, the benefits and the, the ways
in which the employees or the residents, the citizens of
Canada have different accesses than people in the United
States. It's just it, it makes for a
different experience, a different living experience.
You know, the, the best example that I can think of is that
women in Canada who go out on maternity leave, they get around
a year, sometimes more, maybe they take a little less, but
generally that's the average. And in the US it fully depends
on your state. In New York you get 4 months
roughly and in other states you don't get any paid leave.
So you know, you have to take out private benefits short, you
have to pay for short term or long term disability.
And it's, you know, it's a very significant cultural difference.
So we have, like you said, the pregnancy and parental leave.
And actually there's an additional, I think it, I think
it might be up to, so women can take up to 18 months, but they
get the same amount of pay as 12, right, right, right.
Which is 55% of their annual salary, then can take an
additional six months after the woman.
The idea is that they're supposed to be, the woman goes
back to work and the man is now the sole caregiver for this
child. And the idea is to try to kind
of balance the force of. Not just all women leaving the
workforce. All women leaving the workforce
and making men take a stand in, you know, in their families as
well. It's a really interesting
concept and you're seeing it more and more and it's really
funny when it happens in like construction and people are
like, what? What this man is doing like?
And it. Also helps balance the force in
the sense that women of childbearing age are not to be
discriminated against because they're but it still happens.
But now it's like, well, that guy is 32, he's going to get a
kid in the next three years. He's probably going to leave for
six months too. Balance that smart, but then we
have caregiver leaves, so family caregiver leaves.
Yeah, they're really good. Elder care leaves and so there's
medical leaves. There's a lot of other things
that are job protected leaves. Some of them you get employment
insurance for, some of them you don't.
We have typically 11 to 12 paid holidays in a year.
Vacation in Ontario and most of the other provinces starts at 2
weeks, paid vacation up to three weeks after five years.
So all of those things have to be taken into account.
Now we don't have the same costs in terms of health insurance
that the Americans do. Our health insurance is is
typically lower that the employer pays, but you do have
to play pay employment insurance and you have to pay Canada
Pension Plan and you have to pay for workplace accident
insurance. So you're looking at an
additional 10 to 15% on the hourly wage that you're paying
in taxes on behalf of the employee.
So those things also need to be taken into account, but that's
what kind of pays for all of those leaves.
Yeah, yeah. And it's still lower with the
exchange rate. It's still potentially more cost
effective, so. Yeah, persons are.
The water under the bridge and we're a couple pennies now.
Yeah. I think all of that, you know,
when we think about like what drives a country's culture or
province or state's culture, I think family has a lot to do
with that. And so when we think about
fundamentally pregnancy and parental leave, and I love that
there is this, you know, component for the the non
childbearing parent and the leave that they receive.
I love that because one of the biggest challenges can be that
women then feel that set back in their careers because they're
taking the time potentially multiple times over the course
of their career, depending on how many children they have to
take those leaves. And so there's this, it's not
necessarily an, an equality thing, It's an equity thing to
ensure that there's, there's some sort of balance in the
workforce. I really that's really
interesting. And you know, all of that again,
to come back to this original point, all of that is to say
that culturally our countries are really some not fully
defined by, but can be defined by or even changed or adapted
based on some of those policies that help to build families.
Because when, I mean, even when families feel, you know, housing
insecurity or food insecurity, that really deeply effects their
experience, which also then resonates and reverberates kind
of outside and into their own communities.
And that can, you know, we see a lot of that globally.
It's not just AUS issue or a Canadian issue, but I, I do
think that when, when companies are looking at hiring globally,
there is always that cultural significance that needs to be
understood or at least factored in.
And while they might not be the experts to know what that
cultural difference is or significance is, there's Someone
Like You or your team who could help them navigate that, which
is really helpful. Yeah.
No, we, we have a couple companies in the US who have one
or two people in Canada, which you're like, well, how do we
work that with payroll? How do we work that with Canada
Revenue Agency? How do we work that with all of
those pieces? And it, and it seems to be like
a hurdle and you're like, it's actually easier than what you
think it is. And it's really simple for us to
run payroll for one employee in, you know, we do a lot with
nonprofits. Nonprofits seem to have this
global reach as well. So a lot of our clients who are
in the US who have Canadian, one Canadian person, we help them
out with that and make sure that everything is set up to be
legitimately in and reduce the risk of the US employer by
knowing what's going on with that individual.
Right. Amazing.
Well, this has been very insightful and I think we all
are well, we're, we're not Canadian experts necessarily.
We're one step closer to understanding our friends north
of the border. And so Laura, I really
appreciate you joining the podcast and sharing all of your,
your insights and experiences, even with your own clients.
And I think it's, it's really important for everyone as they
think about their careers to, you know, think beyond the scope
of their own communities, their own states, their own country.
And that goes for people outside of the US too.
So with that, where can everyone connect with you?
Learn more about Essential HR and and find some some more
resources on you? Yeah.
So our website essentiallyhr.ca, we're on Instagram at the same
handle, essentially hr.ca. We keep it light and fun.
HR could be heavy enough that we love a lot of office memes, I'll
be honest. And LinkedIn is the same as
well, essentially hr.ca. Amazing.
Well, we'll have all of that LinkedIn, the show notes.
Thank you so much again for your time and and all of all of the
insights you've shared with us this week.
Thank you SO. Much, Tracy.
It was awesome being here. Hey, just before you go, don't
forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the first to
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Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.