1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,320 You know how every home has that one spot, the place you think 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,040 about throughout the day where you can finally exhale? 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,400 For me, it's my bed. But here's The funny thing, It's 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,720 not just my bed anymore. Be honest. 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:12,880 Who in your house tries to sneak into your bed the most? 6 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,520 At mine, it's a toss up between my husband and my daughters. 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,680 And I get it. Like, it's technically my 8 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:20,600 husband's bed too, but it's my bed, you know? 9 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,360 But I get it. Because of the cozy earth 10 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,240 sheets. And I have the silk comforter 11 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:28,200 and the linen duvet cover on the silk comforter. 12 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,119 It's like being the VIP lounge of the house. 13 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,680 It's like sleeping on a cloud and being wrapped in a cloud 14 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,000 hug. And I just love it so much. 15 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,760 In fact, as I'm sharing this with you, I want to go and lie 16 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,720 in bed right now. Their sheets, as I've shared 17 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,600 with you, are made from viscos from bamboo, and they naturally 18 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,640 Wick away heat and moisture, so you sleep several degrees 19 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,560 cooler. That means even on those nights 20 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,880 when it feels impossible to get comfortable, I actually wake up 21 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,000 refreshed. Thank goodness, because I need 22 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,120 to wake up feeling that way. And it's not just the blanket, 23 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:01,560 of course. You can get any of their 24 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,599 blankets like the bubble Cuddle blanket or as I've shared, I 25 00:01:04,599 --> 00:01:08,040 have the silk comforter. It's a really true full on 26 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,240 experience. The bubble cuddle blanket, in 27 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,640 fact, has such a plush texture and midway feel that it's 28 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 perfect for curling up in the bedroom or draped across the 29 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,120 couch as a cozy centerpiece for all of your guests. 30 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,280 And we're approaching fall, which is my favorite season, and 31 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,200 then winter is my second favorite season. 32 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,760 So that means that it is the perfect time to cozy if I, as I 33 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,000 like to say, your homes. And honestly, it makes those 34 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,400 mornings when you just can't get out of bed even harder. 35 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,040 And that's kind of the point when life feels stressful. 36 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,120 That's the spot I can't wait to retreat to. 37 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,080 My cozy earth bed feels different. 38 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,160 It's where my comfort and comfort for my family lives. 39 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,440 And once you try it, I guarantee you, you'll never want to go 40 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,480 back. The best part of course is that 41 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,240 there is 0 risk. You get a 100 night sleep trial. 42 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,040 So if you don't love it, you can send it back, though I promise 43 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,520 you won't want to. There is also a 10. 44 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,240 Your warranty because once you feel this level of comfort, you 45 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,920 want it to last. So do yourself a favor, head to 46 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,800 cozyearth.com and use my code human HR for 40% off. 47 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,560 And if you get a post purchase survey, let them know that you 48 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,039 heard about Cozy Earth right here. 49 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,840 Because your bed should be more than just a place to sleep. 50 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,560 It should be your happy place too. 51 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,480 Cozy Earth makes that possible. Welcome to the bringing the 52 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,480 human back to human resources podcast. 53 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,640 I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've spent my entire professional 54 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:26,600 career in HR. Each week, we'll explore the 55 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,840 delicate balance between people and business with the aim to 56 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,320 reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes. 57 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,840 Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the 58 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:39,400 status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about 59 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,720 our mission to bring the human back to human. 60 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:42,960 Resources. Hi, everyone. 61 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,000 Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here 62 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,160 for another week. If you are watching on Spotify 63 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,760 or YouTube, don't forget to give this video a review or a thumbs 64 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,000 up, whatever you got to do. And if you're listening, you can 65 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,040 still make sure you're subscribed and you can also give 66 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,640 a review like on Apple Podcasts and all the other places. 67 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,200 Either way, I think this is going to be an episode that 68 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,240 you'll want to share with someone that you love or someone 69 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,400 in HR. Because we're going to talk a 70 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:10,640 lot about preventing burnout. And not just that, we're going 71 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:15,880 to talk about how HR is often this shield for all of the stuff 72 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,080 and chaos and craziness that might happen within an 73 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,840 organization that we are inevitably blocking other people 74 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,960 from and what that means and how you keep your, how you keep 75 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,160 your, keep your Shields from having cracks in its, in its 76 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,240 facade, right? So in order to talk about this, 77 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:34,880 I have a guest with me. Her name is Lindsay Karnick. 78 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,600 She's an LCSWMSWMA and the owner of Onward Psychological 79 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,080 Services, a Colorado based private practice providing 80 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,320 psychotherapy to adult individuals and couples in 10 81 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,800 states across the United States. In addition to her anxiety and 82 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,600 stress management specialties, Lindsay sees clients for 83 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,040 depression, anger, life stage changes and issues. 84 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,240 She also presents workshops nationally at conventions, 85 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,440 retreats, and public and private events on practical and tactical 86 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,600 stress management and other topics impacting professionals, 87 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,600 such as related to stress, work life balance, effective 88 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,720 communication, and other topics. Lindsay earned her Master of 89 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,480 Social Work degree from the Graduate School at Indiana 90 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,120 University, Purdue University in Indianapolis, and a Master of 91 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,920 Arts degree in American Studies from Purdue University. 92 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,800 She has served as a counselor for a wide range of individuals 93 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,400 from high stress backgrounds, including military leadership, 94 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,240 attorneys, professional athletes, incarcerated 95 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,000 individuals, business owners, physician couples, tech 96 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,120 printers, and working parents. So basically anyone because 97 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,960 everyone has some sort of stress and stress management. 98 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,520 And by the way, she is an avid reader, writer, runner, and 99 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,120 loves spending time with her family and friends. 100 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,600 Lindsay's superpower is eating dry cereal straight 101 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,640 out-of-the-box. I share in that superpower with 102 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,280 you. I love a dry cereal. 103 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,560 Get us some of those. We, you know what someone, 104 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,080 someone have Cheerios sponsor the podcast or like Honey Nut 105 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,400 Cheerios specifically. What's your favorite cereal? 106 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,040 Rice Jacks. Oh, those are good. 107 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,240 Those are good. Or it's aggressive cousin, which 108 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:12,480 is the Quaker Oats Square. No, I'm not. 109 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,440 The Quaker of Square is a lot like a rice check. 110 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,400 Not rice based, but it's more it's more robust in a way. 111 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,840 They fight back. A little more Oh, I love a 112 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:25,800 robust square. Against you, right? 113 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,080 Actually, it's an Octagon. How crazy is that? 114 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,960 How do My question is if anyone from like General Mills can just 115 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,560 chime in. I want to know how do they make, 116 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,680 how do they cut the cereal like perfect little, you know, like 117 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:41,440 I've thought about it. Can I make my own Cheerios for 118 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:42,720 my kids? You can. 119 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,280 You can. I happen to know that you can. 120 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,240 This is. This is. 121 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,840 Available but like. What are you doing on intro 122 00:05:47,840 --> 00:05:49,200 Teeny? Tiny little. 123 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,240 Circle Yes, you do. You make every single little O 124 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,120 which we. Love. 125 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,960 Oh my gosh, you know there's some. 5. 126 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:58,400 Yeah, right, right, right. Well, if they're my kids, 127 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,800 they'll grab handfuls, shove them in their mouths and then 128 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,120 throw them all over the floor. Then you better just and then 129 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:04,040 eat them. Yeah, right. 130 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,040 I think that's I think that's the way to go. 131 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:07,920 But this is this is good too, no, you know. 132 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,120 Family size, sister that's. What That's Yeah, right. 133 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:11,720 I love the family size from Costco. 134 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:14,760 Also, I will say another shout out to cereal. 135 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,240 This is a very sugary cereal, but the pops, you know that like 136 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:22,760 the corn pops of. Course slogan. 137 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,040 Gotta have my pops. Gotta have my pops. 138 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,640 It's true. And you know what? 139 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,560 I'm salivating at the thought I probably should buy some. 140 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,720 Oh, I'm gonna have to buy some with like whole milk pops and 141 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:35,720 then you just. And some of them are crispy and 142 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:36,320 some. OK. 143 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,440 Anyway, we are here to talk. This is how you manage stress 144 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,240 you find I think. We're here to talk about cereal. 145 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:43,880 I think it's a change of plans. I think so. 146 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:45,320 Maybe we should change our plans. 147 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,200 This is now a Serial podcast. That's funny. 148 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,160 That's very clever. Yeah, right. 149 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,160 Anyway, Lindsay, thank you so much for being here and for 150 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,640 sharing your favorite cereal cereals with us. 151 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,720 How should we start off this topic? 152 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,160 Like where did obviously as a as a psychotherapist and having 153 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,280 this background, there is this element to what you do and 154 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:11,880 focusing on the, the person behind the emotions and the work 155 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,720 and all of that. But when you think about like 156 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,840 the workplace and HR specifically, where where do you 157 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,080 start in in this thought around like preventing burnout? 158 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,320 Well, I think it's helpful to start by acknowledging the 159 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,720 realities of what it means to be in that position, which is 160 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,200 somewhat unique in the sense that, you know, you mentioned 161 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,840 SHIELD and you and I were talking about that HR folks are 162 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,880 in a really unique position, which is they're shielding 2 163 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,400 groups of people in both directions, right? 164 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,040 In some ways, they're serving both the organization, but also 165 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,240 the individuals who sometimes may be a cross purposes, right, 166 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:49,720 or may have contending interests. 167 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,280 And nobody goes into HR because they don't like people, right? 168 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,680 And so you have this lovely group of people who want to be 169 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,080 helpful and want to expedite a good experience for, for people 170 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,800 coming in and people you know on at the top and, and sometimes 171 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,520 their interests aren't in alignment. 172 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,800 And that is really hard on the people in the middle, which is 173 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,400 ultimately HR, right? How, how does one function in 174 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,080 this environment where you care about all these people? 175 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,600 And sometimes their interests are at cross purposes, right? 176 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,480 Or their perceptions of how things should or shouldn't be or 177 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,000 what is fair or unfair are not in alignment. 178 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,800 That's really hard. And it's particularly hard if 179 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,360 you're a nuanced person who can see all sides of an issue, 180 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:36,880 right? You can go like, well, I mean, I 181 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,480 get that. I get what they're saying and I 182 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:39,960 get where they're coming from, right? 183 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,240 And now, now here we are. It's sort of an impasse or a 184 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,440 perceived impasse where feelings are high. 185 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Perhaps the stakes are high. Sometimes the stakes are very 186 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,360 high. And that's a really rough 187 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,000 position to be in, especially for people who care. 188 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:57,280 So it's ironic that this is a field full of people who care, 189 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,320 who are destined to be giving bad news to someone, if not 190 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,440 everybody. Yeah, isn't that funny? 191 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:04,640 I never thought about it that way. 192 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:05,920 It's rough. It's really rough. 193 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,200 Yeah, some people really struggle with it. 194 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,080 Like people I have seen people who have had really successful 195 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,400 careers in HR just do one too many or handle one too many 196 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,000 employee relations issues and then or one too many reductions 197 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,040 in force. And that's kind of it for their 198 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,040 careers. They're like, all right, I'm 199 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,120 moving on. And I do think that there is an 200 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,440 element to this, to this job, but also to what we're talking 201 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,080 about where people do have to create healthy boundaries. 202 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,680 And I've talked about it on my podcast, just from my own 203 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:40,240 experience that sure, I've had moments where I've had to 204 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:45,240 furlough or layoff people and I, I cry at the end of the day 205 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,680 because it's really hard. And you have to like release 206 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,400 that. This is how I release emotion. 207 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,120 I have like, you know, rather than scream, I'd rather cry. 208 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,120 I can scream too, but I'd rather not do that. 209 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,120 And when you get to a point in your career where you're like, 210 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,560 OK, this is how I actually cope with it without necessarily 211 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,760 having to do that. That's something that I've 212 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:08,920 learned over time is how to cope in anticipation of those things 213 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:15,680 and how to kind of reconcile the emotion and be able to execute 214 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:21,120 my job in sometimes a way that can be difficult without taking 215 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,400 it home. And that's the thing that you do 216 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,120 ultimately learn over time. I certainly have. 217 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,720 I haven't necessarily cried over work in a quite a long time. 218 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:35,240 But I think also, if you don't learn it and you don't like you 219 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,600 have to experience it to learn it. 220 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,160 But if you if you also don't walk away with that knowledge, 221 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,680 then you are ultimately going to end up at a place where you're 222 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:44,720 at a crossroads. Like do I continue this or do I 223 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:46,640 stop? Right, for sure. 224 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,880 And perhaps there's a component of, of chaplaincy in a way to 225 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,000 this role. I, you know, when I think about 226 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,560 chaplains, particularly in hospitals, right, chaplains are 227 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:01,240 called in to sit with people through difficult times. 228 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,160 They cannot prevent the difficult times. 229 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,720 That's not in their control, right? 230 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,880 The chaplain cannot change what's happening in a operating 231 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,600 room or an emergency room, any of those places where chaplains 232 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,040 are called to, right? That's that's not their role, 233 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,000 but they can have an impact on that person's quality, the 234 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:25,520 quality of their experience by being with them through it, not 235 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,440 by trying to solve it right or, or make it something it's not. 236 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,920 Nobody can do that. It is what it is, right? 237 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,680 And I think sometimes we underestimate in our in our 238 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,000 lovely person. I I hate to see people suffer. 239 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,000 I hate to people see, see people sad way we sort of get fixated 240 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,040 on the idea like, well, this is just a bad situation. 241 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,040 So this person's going to feel bad, right? 242 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,480 And that's largely true often. And also, that doesn't mean that 243 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:58,440 in any one of a number of roles, we can't be with people through 244 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,200 things in a way that sort of makes their experience more 245 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,840 palatable, right? We can be a companion with them 246 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,240 and that's very valuable. You don't have to be able to 247 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,680 tell somebody, oh, actually turns out you're not getting 248 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:16,120 furloughed. If you can sit with them in that 249 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,960 moment, right? And just be company, be good 250 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,880 company for something that's difficult, that's incredible, 251 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,720 incredibly meaningful to people. People aren't dumb, right? 252 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,880 They know that that you didn't make this decision or it's not 253 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,880 you're not doing it to them. They're not asking you, no 254 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,480 matter how distressed they are to make it not So they realize 255 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,320 even even if maybe that comes out right in a moment of, you 256 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,800 know, panic or catharting, they know you don't have control over 257 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,000 that. But what you do have control 258 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,440 over is how you are with them in that moment. 259 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,040 And that can have profound, profoundly positive implications 260 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,800 for how they're, they're bigger experiences, just like going 261 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,320 through anything else difficult, right? 262 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,080 If you're in a hospital setting and something sad is happening, 263 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,720 it makes a big difference how the people in that hospital 264 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,040 interact with you. Whether they can change the 265 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,720 outcome of the sad thing or not is not, is not the issue, right? 266 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:14,680 How are they with you in that setting? 267 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:18,040 And that's something I think we all have a tremendous degree of 268 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,560 influence on anywhere, anytime in our lives, right? 269 00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:24,800 When we can't fix something or solve something, but we can 270 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,640 influence the course of that persons experience within it 271 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,960 just by showing up in a certain way, we don't. 272 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:35,080 Fix it. This is a great point. 273 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,920 I've never thought about it with that analogy before, but it 274 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,600 makes a lot of sense. And I also think about how this 275 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,520 is really indicative of the difference between empathy and 276 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,920 sympathy. And that sympathy. 277 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,080 Look, I am not an expert on this, but, and this is not a 278 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,080 technical definition, but to me, sympathy is kind of when you 279 00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:00,400 take on some of that emotion and you feel the emotion, you, you 280 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,160 sympathize for someone. So it's it's not just like with 281 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,400 empathy to me, it's like demonstrating I need to like a 282 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,880 want to understand and be able to be there or like support 283 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,080 someone and have consideration for someone, but you're not 284 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,040 putting yourself so much in their shoes that you're then 285 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,520 also feeling what they feel. Is that fair? 286 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,200 Yes, I think it's fair. Like I think and I think people 287 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,920 might have various iterations of empathy versus sympathy, right? 288 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,520 But I think what you're saying is absolutely accurate. 289 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,760 There's a difference between being with somebody through 290 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:44,520 something and it versus experiencing it directly, right? 291 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,600 And in a way, I think it's helpful. 292 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,680 You know, empathetic people tend to do that by default, right? 293 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,560 They just sort of vicariously soak up what else is going on 294 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,680 around them, right? And it can be very hard not to 295 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:02,800 sort of sponge, sponge that up. And we might say that being 296 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,040 overly empathetic, experiencing what that person's experiencing 297 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,200 is not helpful to them. That would be like if you were 298 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,800 in a, if two people were in a raft and one person fell 299 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,080 overboard. And so the other one's like, 300 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,400 wait, I'll jump in too. Yeah, like, no, no, no, no, stay 301 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,720 in the boat. Please talk from life vest. 302 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,160 Be helpful. Do not get in there and start 303 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:25,680 splashing around with them, right. 304 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,520 Somebody has to stay in the boat to rescue the other person, so 305 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,880 to speak. And so if you want to be helpful 306 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,840 to somebody who's having a hard time, you need to stay in the 307 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,360 boat, right? To some degree, you need to stay 308 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,600 in the boat so you can help them, You can assist them, you 309 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,160 can reach out to them, you can present them with any number of 310 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,160 supports and and helps to get back in the boat. 311 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,240 But if you jump into the water with them, it's probably going 312 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,000 to get worse, not better, right? And perhaps some people, in 313 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,040 fact, you know, I, I know this, some people do worry that if 314 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,320 they're not in there with the other person, it's like a lack 315 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,120 of solidarity or showing a lack of care, like no, no, no, no, 316 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,240 no, no, no, no. It's the opposite of that, 317 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,160 right? If you care, you will stay in 318 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,920 the boat where you can help this person as opposed to being in 319 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,560 the water where you're both kind of flailing around inhaling 320 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,160 water and. Not doing great, right, Right. 321 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,560 Yeah, that's another great analogy. 322 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,480 And of course, if anyone thinks similarly to me, I was like, 323 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,800 This is why you put on your own oxygen mask before you put on 324 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:33,520 other people's oxygen masks. I just, it doesn't also bring me 325 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,040 to a thought where some, and you kind of touched on this too, 326 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,840 when people are overly empathetic. 327 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,000 I think I just recently did an episode on the by the time our 328 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,080 episode comes out, it's not so recent, but I did an episode in 329 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:52,080 the spring where I talked about some of the misconceptions to 330 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,160 being in HR and that sometimes people choose this career. 331 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,480 They think that it's all about caring for people. 332 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,560 It's all about helping people. And it's not really that like 333 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,960 you have that. If you, if you like those 334 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,240 things, you'll probably like being in HR depending on the 335 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,000 role that you're in. But it's a whole industry, let 336 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:16,520 alone an entire career with many different kind of points of, of 337 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,359 like forks in the road, let's say, where you can start out in 338 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,599 one thing and you can go into these different specialties. 339 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:28,079 And, and I say all of that to mention that I think sometimes 340 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:32,920 people in HR and also people who are not in HR, but are people 341 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,080 leaders, they think that being overly empathetic to your point 342 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:41,200 is how they demonstrate their care for their team member or 343 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,360 their people that they're, you know, kind of taking care of or 344 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:48,520 representing. And to your point, when people 345 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:51,720 do too much of that, it, it, it inhibits them, I think. 346 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,680 And in my experience in HR, when I used to handle a lot of 347 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,360 employee relations issues, which basically is, you know, a way of 348 00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:04,640 handling a lot of conflict. And so you are effectively like 349 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,680 an expert conflict resolver and you're an expert in conflict 350 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,800 resolution. And people in HR either love 351 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,560 employee relations and handling those things or they hate it. 352 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,800 And I was someone who really loved it because I felt like I 353 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,680 was able to solve problems, which then kind of in turn 354 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,120 relates to people who then want to go into a more strategic 355 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,720 role. Again, all of this to say that 356 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,120 in roles like that, where you're really dealing with people and 357 00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:34,320 their nuance and all of their flaws and all of the things that 358 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,200 you know, it's a very, it's very Gray. 359 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,720 You have to be able to manage a lot of emotion and a lot of 360 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,120 different stories or a lot of different facts, quote UN quote 361 00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:48,240 facts. And when you overly empathize, 362 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,120 you can sometimes lose sight of what is real, what is fact, and 363 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:55,720 what your responsibility is in that moment. 364 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,640 Like when you're in a very high, highly emotional environment 365 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,240 because you're dealing with two people who had a relationship 366 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,160 and then one person said that they didn't consent. 367 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,280 And now you're dealing with a lot of emotions because two 368 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,360 people are saying their own side of the truth and both things 369 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:15,840 could be incorrect. You have to, you can't actually 370 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,560 empathize. You have to fully remove your 371 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,120 own emotions from things like that. 372 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,200 So I think it's, it is it, it adds another layer of what we 373 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,880 understand to be our roles in HR and for people leaders. 374 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,960 Because again, when you overly empathize, depending on the 375 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,720 situation you're in, you could be doing the opposite of what is 376 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,640 your job. Yeah, it makes you less 377 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,640 effective, not more. We could compare it to being a 378 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,000 cheerleader versus being a coach, right? 379 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:42,600 Nobody's gonna say either of those. 380 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,200 Those are not meant to be the same role, right? 381 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,400 It's very clear what cheerleaders do and what coaches 382 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,520 do, right? And if you, a cheerleader has to 383 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,720 be somebody who's not in a coaching role because a coach 384 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,560 may have to give you some feedback, that doesn't fall into 385 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,640 the realm of cheerleading, right? 386 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,440 Hopefully your coach can cheerlead. 387 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,880 Yeah, But your cheer, the person who's just, like, hyping you up 388 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,880 is probably not going to be the one to give you the feedback 389 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,080 that you need to grow. Exactly. 390 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,840 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that makes sense. 391 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:18,880 Those things, yes, 100%. So I think that is difficult and 392 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:25,040 when maybe we can always say that we can empathize on a high 393 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,000 level 100,000 foot view that this is very difficult for 394 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,560 everyone. Like clearly none of these 395 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,280 parties wants to be in this situation and we can feel 396 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,760 tremendous empathy and even sadness that two people find 397 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,120 themselves in that situation. Nobody wants to be there, right? 398 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:40,840 Clearly something has gone wrong. 399 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,280 Right where? We're at and that's sad, right? 400 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,480 That is super sad. And it's sad that it has gotten 401 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,240 to this point where, you know, this person in HR is seeing them 402 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,560 and now it's conflict, you know, and mediation and all of these 403 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:53,840 things. That's all very sad, Sad. 404 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,440 And we can be sad about that without getting invested in one 405 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,720 of the storylines. Totally. 406 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,600 Like this is not a drama like this is. 407 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,760 Yeah. Or like a Real Housewives show, 408 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,920 like some of my favorite shows where I'm very deeply invested 409 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,240 in all these people storylines. But that is not the case when we 410 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:17,080 are actually dealing with real people's lives and how we help 411 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,240 to mediate those things. Yeah, it's, it's a good point. 412 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,480 And I guess we could also flip the script and say that when you 413 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,760 lack empathy and when you don't have enough empathy, depending 414 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,720 on the circumstance that you're in and probably every 415 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,400 circumstance, you're also going to find a lack of efficacy in 416 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,800 your role. Absolutely. 417 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,880 I think that's true for 900% of roles in general, right. 418 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,920 But but particularly in the, in the line of work, we're talking 419 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:49,560 about being able to dial in and read the subtext and see people, 420 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,360 right? And sometimes see past what 421 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,640 they're saying to what they're meaning, right? 422 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,400 Because sometimes people are meaning something that's not 423 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,920 quite what they're communicating. 424 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,560 And that can be a little bit of a red herring. 425 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,120 And they're not doing it intentionally. 426 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:04,960 They're probably doing it to save face. 427 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,360 They're probably doing it because of their pride or their 428 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:08,480 something they're embarrassed of, right. 429 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,200 And so if we can empathize with how difficult it is for anyone 430 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,360 to come forward and voice a concern, right? 431 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:20,160 That's difficult. Even people, you know, I think 432 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,280 it's interesting. Even people, you know, you think 433 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,240 about, I don't know, maybe somebody who routinely 434 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:27,960 complaints at restaurants, right? 435 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:28,920 Like I want to talk to the manager. 436 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,600 I want to talk to the manager. I want to talk to the manager. 437 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:31,560 I want to talk to the manager, right? 438 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,760 Like superficially we could say, oh, that person really is 439 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,240 comfortable with feedback, right? 440 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:39,880 And is really comfortable sort of bringing. 441 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,200 That at least giving it, yeah. Exactly. 442 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,400 At least giving it and if you're, if that's, you know, the 443 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,560 same Applebee's and you know the same manager is getting drug out 444 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,600 every night or every Monday night to hear from this one 445 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,000 person, they're going to get pretty cheesed off. 446 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:57,960 Pretty quickly, right? Yeah. 447 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,560 Like pick another establishment. Absolutely. 448 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,560 Exactly. Clearly when you're not happy 449 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,400 here, right? Like, but with your feet, 450 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,280 please. But we could also say like, oh 451 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:11,040 wow, what is it? And this is a form of empathy, 452 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,960 right? It's a form of curious empathy 453 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,160 to kind of say to oneself, huh, wow, that must be doing 454 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,720 something for that person. And that's sad. 455 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,880 Yeah. Like that says something else 456 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,440 about what needs of theirs aren't getting met in the rest 457 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,040 of the world or in the rest of their life, that every Monday, 458 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,520 like clockwork, they're in here complaining about Applebee's or, 459 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,040 you know, or whatever it is. Gosh, gosh, that's a bummer. 460 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,960 That's a bummer for them. That's a great way to like. 461 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,160 I'm sure that many of us think that way in our personal lives 462 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,880 when we interact with someone who to us seems maybe crazed or 463 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,360 really impassioned by something so small. 464 00:23:55,360 --> 00:24:00,160 Like maybe a fork was missing from their take out bag just 465 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:01,280 like a random example that I could. 466 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Think of Applebee's. Yeah, right. 467 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:06,160 Specifically for Applebee's is really catching strays here. 468 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,120 As I don't know why, clearly I'm in the mood for like, fries. 469 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,560 I don't know. You'll get fries and I'll get 470 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,520 pop cereal. Love it. 471 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,440 But I, I think if we take that to the next level and we say, 472 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,760 OK, well, we're going to bring this to the workplace and we're 473 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,640 going to think about all of these potentially negative 474 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,520 interactions that we have with people, especially the higher 475 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,880 you go, sometimes those interactions become more 476 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,560 frequent, depending. And it's like, oh man, this 477 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,120 person really likes to argue. Maybe this is the only maybe, 478 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,800 like it is kind of sad. Maybe that's the only time 479 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:42,960 they're actually interacting with someone else is like 480 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,480 through or like. This is how they were raised. 481 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,440 Or maybe you are the only person they're comfortable arguing 482 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,240 with, and they're the time they're invisible or in a 483 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,080 position where they feel really silenced. 484 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:54,520 Yeah. And like, of course, none of 485 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,640 this is justification, right? We're not justifying anything. 486 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,040 But it's helpful in terms of bringing your own blood pressure 487 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,360 down to be curious about what animates other people. 488 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,080 Right. My favorite joke in the whole 489 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,920 world is that it's like the classic why did the chicken 490 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,360 cross the road? It doesn't matter what answer 491 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,600 you come up with, but there's always a reason and human 492 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,760 behavior always. Nobody does anything for no 493 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,360 reason or nobody does something just to be a jerk. 494 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,600 Or if they do, that has a reason, right? 495 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,960 It's it's doing something. And I think it's really helpful 496 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,680 as we interact with people, particularly in challenging 497 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,120 conditions, right? Whatever the nature of those 498 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,960 challenging conditions are is to be sort of baseline curious at 499 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:43,120 all times about what animates them as opposed to what are they 500 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:46,920 doing what what is behind what they're doing is so much more 501 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,960 interesting and blood pressure reducing, right, because the 502 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,000 face value version doesn't tell you much. 503 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,480 Yeah, that's really interesting. I, I'm going to have to reflect 504 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,960 on this too, because I think part of my thought process here 505 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,520 is that I'm thinking about someone in my mind who really 506 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:12,880 gets very amplified by like very small things at work and what, 507 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,320 what the reason for that is. And maybe there's a, maybe 508 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,080 there's a take away there that like when we think about these 509 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,320 things that maybe we can do something to help them de 510 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,960 amplify and, and feel a little bit more of like a sense of calm 511 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,520 or maybe it's control that they feel they don't have or 512 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:32,400 whatever. That might be. 513 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,160 Because most of the time people have this like, you know, 514 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,800 intense reaction to things because of fear or anxiety or 515 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,200 control, meaning not anxiety necessarily as a diagnosis, but 516 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,400 because they're, they're anxious about something or they feel a 517 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,080 loss of control. I mean, all of these things seem 518 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,080 perfectly reasonable to me. And all of that I think does 519 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,080 kind of connect to this thought process around HR having and 520 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:05,320 being a shield for much of an organization depending on where 521 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,400 they sit and how HR people are also human. 522 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,840 We are in this like interesting position where we have to 523 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,440 support the business needs and we also are expected to support 524 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,720 employee needs as an at an individual level. 525 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,600 And how we kind of go between those two things which have 526 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,360 competing priorities and competing demands and not find 527 00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,920 ourselves in a position where we are losing sight of what we need 528 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,720 to be balanced and with boundaries and and not burnt 529 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,240 out. Absolutely. 530 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,000 And I suspect, you know, based on personal temperament, you 531 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,760 know, there are some people who are probably more able to 532 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,400 distance themselves a little bit than others. 533 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,080 And I think there's a real fit question, you know, if you're a 534 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,720 person and you know that it will eat you up, right, to feel 535 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:01,360 ambivalent or to feel torn between the the employee need 536 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:04,040 versus the company policy, then maybe you need to work somewhere 537 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,160 where the set of policies are more in alignment with your 538 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,200 personal values, right? Where you're not going to feel 539 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,840 that you've been put in a position where you have to make 540 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,920 this choice, this terrible choice, right between your value 541 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,800 of supporting this individual versus your value or sort of 542 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,960 necessity of, of supporting the organizational policy or 543 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,560 whatever it is. And, and I think that's a really 544 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,240 good thing to think about. That's true everywhere, right? 545 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,600 Is am I in an organization that fits with me in terms of my 546 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,440 temperament and how that's reflected in their values? 547 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880 Can I be on board with that? And particularly when you're in 548 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,840 HR, where you will become the sort of gatekeeper of those 549 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,880 organizational values, it seems really important to me that 550 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,800 those values are in alignment with your values or those 551 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,520 organizational frameworks are in alignment with your values on 552 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,080 some basic level so that you don't feel conflicted when you 553 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,160 have to enforce those in whatever way that happens. 554 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,000 Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. 555 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,320 And when I think about that, what you've just shared around 556 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,400 making sure there's values alignment and how if someone is 557 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,200 feeling conflicted, there might be something there that there 558 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,480 isn't that that alignment exactly. 559 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,840 It does make me think about how people often say, oh, I'm in a 560 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,640 toxic work environment. I work for a toxic whatever. 561 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,760 You know, of course, I'm not doubting that there are toxic 562 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,160 people everywhere and there are toxic experiences everywhere. 563 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,040 But I think there's also an element here where we can 564 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,120 further define what the breakdown is. 565 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,200 Like, is it is it truly that someone is like harassing you 566 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,760 and it is a toxic environment? Or is it that the values of the 567 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,960 company or the person that you're working for are not a 568 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,560 values match? Or is it that they work 569 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,120 differently from you and you don't like that? 570 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,520 Like it could be so many things and, and it's not to devalue or 571 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:00,160 or like justify when people are treating others badly. 572 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,880 That's not what I'm saying. But I think that there are 573 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,400 sometimes where people can be like really direct and someone 574 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,280 who doesn't like that, they don't take it well. 575 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,520 They think that person is rude and toxic and all these things 576 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,600 and all the words. And instead of figuring out what 577 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,400 the issue is, they just, you know, have this reaction. 578 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,560 So I think there is value in really understanding where 579 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,640 breakdowns in, you know, either someone's feelings around like a 580 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,640 negative feelings around a situation or an experience are 581 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,840 coming from, but also to better learn what they need for 582 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,360 themselves. Yeah, it's a question of is it 583 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,800 the weather or the climate, right? 584 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,200 Weather is temporary, weather comes and goes. 585 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,640 Weather is seasonal weather, right? 586 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,280 But climate, climate's pretty conclusion. 587 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,760 And if you don't like the climate, waiting for the weather 588 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,080 to change, not going to do much. Oh, I like that right. 589 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,480 This is why I don't live in Florida. 590 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120 I, you know, I can deal with warm weather 3 months out of the 591 00:30:56,120 --> 00:31:00,080 year, not every day. That's really interesting. 592 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:05,720 I like that you have like every analogy that I could ever dream 593 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,000 of. Like every single. 594 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,240 It's the weather of the climate I'm using. 595 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,200 I'm going to take that. I will credit you please, but 596 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,760 I'm going to. I'm sure I didn't come up with 597 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,320 that originally, so please don't credit me. 598 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,680 I'll. Be like Lindsay told me about 599 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,880 it. It was on his podcast it. 600 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,600 Was Robin. I think actually you can. 601 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,040 You can. Oh, thank you, Robin. 602 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,400 Robin. Yeah, shout out to Robin Weather 603 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,200 versus climate. That's so it's, you know, the 604 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,120 thing about analogies and it's why I'm like a storyteller in my 605 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:33,800 podcast. And anyone that's been here is 606 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:35,640 probably heard the same story kind of a million times. 607 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,520 That's what my husband tells me is I repeat stories anyway. 608 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:40,240 I don't think I do it so much on my podcast. 609 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,280 It's just him. This is he married me. 610 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:43,960 That's what I get to do for the rest of his life. 611 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:48,280 I get to torture him anyway. When I do, when I tell these 612 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,560 stories, I try to like come up with examples or like visuals 613 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,520 because it's so much easier to put into perspective what 614 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,560 weather versus climate is in the sense of what we're talking 615 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,960 about because we can understand that we get it versus having to 616 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,120 think about what that might actually mean. 617 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,600 To us, and if you, if you, if the climate is not to your 618 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,560 liking, the weather doesn't make any difference. 619 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,080 No. Right, you've got to find a new 620 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,960 climate and that's OK, right? That's there's nothing in the 621 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,080 world wrong with that to say, hey, my temperament in this 622 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,480 climate are not in alignment and that's not good for either of 623 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,200 us. So let's go somewhere else. 624 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,960 Let's see you're that's not admitting defeat. 625 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,680 That's quite frankly a success to be able to define for 626 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,160 yourself that, oh, I see, I, this is actually the bigger 627 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,200 picture is not in alignment with my temperament. 628 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,240 So square peg, round hole. Why? 629 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,640 Why would we try and do this? You're not saying that a square 630 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,880 peg or a round hole is bad, you're just saying they don't go 631 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,360 together. Fine, good, right? 632 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,200 No problem, move on. Right. 633 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,640 Yeah, I love that. I love that. 634 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,080 And I, I will say my my parents, I remember when I was like very, 635 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,680 I think it was actually my first job. 636 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,160 I worked at Target. And I remember there was like 637 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,360 something that was stressing me out. 638 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,200 I don't know, I was like, maybe I need to leave. 639 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,720 And my parents were like, your first job is not always your 640 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,200 last job. Like don't, don't feel like your 641 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,240 entire life and your entire existence is riding on this one 642 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,040 experience. And it's really very true. 643 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,160 And you know, when you're like, I was young, I'm so young by the 644 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,320 way, but when you're young, just in case anyones wondering, I'm 645 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,280 young really when you're young and it's like it is your first 646 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,680 job or maybe your first experience in whatever role 647 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,840 you'd it feels so intense. Like there's such an intense 648 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,240 feeling around like I have to make it, I have to make it work. 649 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,280 I have to do well, like there, especially when you're super 650 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,440 driven and you have to, you know, there are certain things 651 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,640 that people hold themselves to. But when you think about the 652 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,480 weather versus climate understanding and you realize 653 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,800 that not every job is going to be your last job. 654 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,520 And you can always find something new where there's 655 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,040 potentially a better climate out there for you. 656 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,320 Then you remove all of that emotion, you remove all that 657 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,960 heaviness, and you can just think logically about the 658 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,960 circumstances that you're in. Yes, yes. 659 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,360 And you can hopefully notice when you're being judgmental 660 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,760 about it, right? So when people get stuck in that 661 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,960 loop of like oh I should like the climates. 662 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:15,480 Right, right. It's. 663 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,760 So interesting. I mean, you talk to people in 664 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,560 Florida, they'll be like, how do you not love this, right? 665 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:23,080 How do you talk this? You show. 666 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,360 Up like it's 100° with 100% humidity. 667 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,600 What are you talking? You're like, how do you love it? 668 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,679 I don't understand. No compute, right? 669 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,679 Yeah. But I think people get easily 670 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,480 caught up in that, understandably, particularly in 671 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,440 careers, Right? Because the climate and fitting 672 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,760 into or not fitting into the climate sort of morphs into this 673 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,800 referendum on their good enoughness, right? 674 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,600 Instead of going like, oh, I don't think this is a great fit, 675 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,719 they go, oh, I need to be better. 676 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,600 And now making this work has become a referendum on my 677 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,000 abilities, my competencies, my ability to be a team player or 678 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,080 game or work under difficult conditions. 679 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,680 And, and we have to be really, really careful about letting 680 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,280 these questions of fit become referendums on worth, right? 681 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,160 Because that's a dangerous road to go down to have yourself be 682 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:23,080 in a position where you are determined to make something 683 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,160 work because to not make it work feels like some negative 684 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,160 commentary on you. And that's that's rough because 685 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,520 you'll be there for the next 50 years. 686 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,920 Yeah, and you're not going to be happy and no one around you is 687 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,720 going to be happy. But like, all the power to you 688 00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:39,960 if that's what you want by yourself. 689 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:44,000 No, but this is, this is so, so, so true. 690 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,040 I'm like sitting in this for a moment because I have made that 691 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,320 mistake. Me too. 692 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,960 Where yeah, and it's really interesting we're in this 693 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,760 together. It's so amazing how through 694 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,200 like, you know, living and growing and aging all the. 695 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,720 You learn so much about yourself like I it's just so interesting 696 00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:10,400 to think about how it's. And it's still easy for me to. 697 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,120 Do by the way. I don't know if it's still easy 698 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,840 for you to do where it's like, yeah, yeah. 699 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,240 It's like, oh, of course this isn't working out because I'm 700 00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,640 not working hard enough. You're like, wait, but I'm 701 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,200 working. I am working hard enough. 702 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,840 I am doing enough. I am really. 703 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,480 And it's, it's so interesting how easy it is, especially if 704 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,280 you are working for someone who also is not a climate match for 705 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,240 you, who then, you know, maybe it, it's like a pile on of this, 706 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:40,000 like, oh, I'm not doing well. Enough. 707 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,320 If you were working hard enough, you would be happy. 708 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,000 You would. Right, you would be happy in 709 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,760 this like very sunny climate year round. 710 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,280 And there's no way to disprove that, right? 711 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,640 There's no there's no way to unprove that. 712 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,400 It's yeah. Absentia. 713 00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:56,560 So it's kind of, it's the same thing that happens right when 714 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,520 people are in relationships that are not a good fit and they keep 715 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,200 going. But if I would learn to 716 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,840 communicate better, if I would stop doing this or the other 717 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,840 person would start doing this, or if I would start doing this 718 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:12,240 right, then, then, then, then, then people are really reluctant 719 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:14,720 to just go. Not a good fit, right? 720 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,840 People are afraid of being accused either by themselves or 721 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,760 other people, like being a quitter, basically. 722 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,520 And they go, oh, no, no, I'm going to prove to you that I 723 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,920 went so far above and beyond to make this thing work until 724 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,400 there's not a shadow of a doubt that I did all the things that 725 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,640 could have been done on my end. Because I can't stand the idea 726 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,360 that anybody might say, well, you tapped out a little early to 727 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,520 know. Didn't you Right. 728 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,080 It goes back to elementary school. 729 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,800 Like don't be a chicken. Like it literally, it starts 730 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,640 when we're like six years old, we're told. 731 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,760 Don't be a quitter. And don't be a whiner. 732 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:47,440 And don't be, yeah, don't want to add it. 733 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:48,800 Don't be a baby. Yeah. 734 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,640 Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, I think we can all say 735 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,960 that this is a matter of degree, right? 736 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,480 If you're in a position that doesn't feel like a great fit, 737 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:04,720 if you're safe and you're not being harmed, you should 738 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:08,120 probably try some things and see if it's the climate or the 739 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,840 weather, right? You won't know until you spend a 740 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,280 little time there. I mean, we could say that 741 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,880 literally about any other climate weather situation. 742 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,200 You don't know if it's the climate or the weather until you 743 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,040 spend some time there, although sometimes you can know, you can 744 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:23,720 read. About you get a yeah, yeah, 745 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:24,360 yeah. Right. 746 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,560 And this is true. I mean, we could say that people 747 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,480 look and make these assessments all the time about companies and 748 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,680 industries, right, By going like, I don't think that'd be a 749 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,480 good fit for me because that's like that. 750 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,080 And I'm like this so mismatch, right? 751 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,520 Yeah. Or they can say that about other 752 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,120 people, like before they go out with somebody like, oh, I don't 753 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,600 know. That person loves to do nothing 754 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,360 but fish and I love to do nothing but pottery. 755 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,120 So no way, right. I don't leave the house. 756 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,200 Well, you can make some general assessments about fit sometimes 757 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:57,120 at the get go at the outset. More often we have to find out 758 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,320 by experience, right? And and the real trick I think 759 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,920 is, is letting yourself have the gift of going. 760 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,000 You know what I've lived here, wherever here is whether it's a, 761 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:14,040 a geography or a job or a role or a company or a career. 762 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:20,680 I have lived here long enough to determine that the weather is X 763 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,600 and the climate is Y, and there's no changing Y because 764 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,080 that's a climate issue and I've given it a fair shot. 765 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,520 I've experienced all Four Seasons, right? 766 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,920 And I have determined it's the climate because I've given it a 767 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,280 fair shot and then have the sort of confidence and the sort of 768 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,200 quiet conviction to go, I don't like this climate. 769 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,240 This climate might be fantastic for somebody else who is not me. 770 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,440 And yay to them. I'm going to present them with a 771 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:46,440 nice warm chair. Goodbye. 772 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,320 And off you go to a different climate where somebody has left 773 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,840 a warm chair for you because that was not the climate for. 774 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,160 That, yes, yeah, I love that. And isn't that, isn't there so 775 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,440 much Peace of Mind that comes with that when you realize you 776 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,720 know what? I did the best that I could. 777 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,360 My best is always good enough, and I'm going to go find where 778 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,960 my best is like exactly what they need, absolutely. 779 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,720 And it's a perfect. Fit like look, I might add an 780 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,160 addendum to that. Maybe you didn't do your best 781 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,360 and you still figured out the climate wasn't for you. 782 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:16,760 That's. Also, maybe that's why you 783 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,400 didn't do your best, right? Because that climate was really 784 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,960 demoralizing to you or unhealthy for you or any one of a number 785 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,800 of things. Not doing your best doesn't mean 786 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,080 that you're not capable of taking the temperature and 787 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,800 looking around and determining the climate for yourself at all. 788 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,800 Yeah. I mean, you know we're laughing 789 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,720 about Florida, right? You can go to someplace 790 00:40:39,720 --> 00:40:43,960 geographically and not see every city or experience every 791 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,000 landscape or park and determine that that's not the climate for 792 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,640 you. Even without having tried it 793 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:50,920 all. You'd be like, no, I didn't. 794 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,560 I didn't need to try it all actually. 795 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,920 Like if someone hates rain, that you're not going to go to the 796 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,520 Pacific Northwest. Or humidity. 797 00:40:57,680 --> 00:40:59,640 Right, Right. Yeah, it's fine. 798 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,160 But if they like love hiking and they love being outside, maybe 799 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,200 Colorado is where they want to. Go exactly. 800 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,680 Or maybe if you you hate those things but love those things, 801 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,320 maybe you will tolerate one or it's enough of a trade off for 802 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,040 you and that's fine. There are 1,000,000 iterations 803 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,760 of this in which it works, right? 804 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,480 I think the the challenge is simply to be open and accepting 805 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,360 that something not working is not necessarily really a 806 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:27,120 commentary on you. It could be, but you are in a 807 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:28,600 position to be the judge of that. 808 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,440 And you can say any one of a number of things, including, 809 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,000 yeah, you know what? I didn't try my best, quite 810 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,320 frankly. And what's also true is this 811 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,640 isn't an environment that makes me want to try my best, which 812 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:41,480 makes it not the right climate for me. 813 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:42,480 Right. That's. 814 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,120 Fine, good. On you. 815 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,720 Yeah, I love this. I think that's, it's kind of 816 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:49,640 like a mic drop. It's like, OK, well, look, the 817 00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:51,200 you're only putting pressure on yourself. 818 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,640 Like you can be the judge of your own, you know, kind of 819 00:41:54,720 --> 00:41:58,320 future and work and you are not stuck anywhere. 820 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,080 And people of course, are always hesitant to leave places because 821 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,800 they don't know, you know, the, the fear of the unknown. 822 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,360 They don't know what they don't know. 823 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,320 And they're, the market is hard and all these things. 824 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,160 However, you can say that at any point at any time, whether the 825 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,000 economy is amazing or the, whether the economy is bad, it 826 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,400 doesn't matter. There's always going to be that 827 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,320 thing that we use as our reason to get out of making a decision 828 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:24,760 that could be the right decision for us. 829 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,560 So I think Lindsay, you've, you've provided so much insight 830 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,400 and, and we shared a lot of laughs on this episode too. 831 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,360 So I, I really appreciated you bringing yourself and your 832 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:39,040 analogies and all of your wisdom to us this week. 833 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,160 And I, I think I'd love to pass you to share with the listeners 834 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,160 where they can learn more about your philosophies on these 835 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,400 things and connect with you. Tracy it's been super fun. 836 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:49,680 I'm so glad we were able to do this. 837 00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:52,680 An absolute blast. I'm findable I'm findable on 838 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,160 Instagram at onward psych services. 839 00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,240 I put out a practical tactical coping skill every so often 840 00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:02,880 which are super fun and some other videos on fun things. 841 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,080 Yes you can find me on LinkedIn. I have a website 842 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,360 whichisonwardpsychservices.com psych is PSYCH onward 843 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,440 psychservices.com and I have a phone I. 844 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,920 Actually, you know those oh nice thing you can make. 845 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,960 Calls. They they do stuff like a 846 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,000 landline, which line doesn't even need anything. 847 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:22,280 Mostly kids don't know what this is. 848 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,920 They do this now for anyone who's listening. 849 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,480 We're we're doing like the pinky and the thumb for the phone. 850 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,080 Phone like 90s phone. Yeah, like click, yeah, like 851 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,600 hang up the receiver. But kids these days, you know, 852 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,080 because they don't know what pay phones are potentially and they 853 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,520 didn't don't have a landline. They take what is like a phone 854 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,080 because the phone is usually just like a rectangle and they 855 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,880 put it so they take their whole palm. 856 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,400 It's weird. That makes it's weird. 857 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,520 In a non ethical way so people can call me on the phone at 858 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:58,200 720-362-8164 if they're so inclined or text me at that 859 00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:58,880 number. That's fine. 860 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,120 Oh, amazing. Amazing. 861 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:01,600 Well, we'll have everything in the show notes. 862 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,480 Thank you so much, Lindsay. You're amazing. 863 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:05,560 My ask for a. Pleasure. 864 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,920 It's been so fun. Thanks, Tracy. 865 00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:10,520 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 866 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,400 so that you are the first to hear when an episode drops each 867 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,840 week and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 868 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,640 much you love this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 869 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,120 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 870 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,080 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 871 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:25,440 and I'll see you next week.