1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:06,240 This is officially my last day of the like Wellness journey, 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:11,040 the seven day kind of challenge, let's call it, from Magic Mind. 3 00:00:11,040 --> 00:00:17,400 And I think I shared last time that, you know, I've already 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,360 been drinking the Magic Mind mental performance shot every 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:22,480 single day. So actually, I guess this is 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,560 kind of like day #14 if I'm trying to like think back. 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,880 Yeah, I think it's, I think it's day #14 and seriously, I didn't, 8 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,120 I actually did not have any coffee today. 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:37,400 I only had my Magic Mind mental performance shot. 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,600 And, you know, like at some point when you're used to like, 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,600 you know, having caffeine in the morning, like it kind of sets 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,160 you up for your day. But Magic Mind has really 13 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:50,040 replaced this for me. And it's to me, it's like a 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,320 healthier alternative too, because it's not as much 15 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,360 caffeine and it's, you know, it's loaded with wonderful, 16 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,240 amazing, healthy ingredients. And so, you know, of course, 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,160 when I think back to what I shared over these last few weeks 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,800 that as you know, a mom of twins and of course, like, it's the 19 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,760 winter, you can hear I've been congested in like every single 20 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,400 episode for the last like two months. 21 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,680 I've needed to just kind of like plow through things. 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,160 And magic mind is the thing that has gotten me through literally. 23 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:22,160 And I don't feel like I'm hitting a wall as much anymore. 24 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,760 Like I really feel like I found a lot of balance and I found 25 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,640 like my focus again and I was just feeling so out of focus. 26 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,840 So this shift in mindset and really like working with magic 27 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,440 mind has totally opened my eyes. And I'm really grateful that not 28 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,120 only that they've decided to work with me, but also that they 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,760 challenged me to drink it every single day because even though I 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,520 was doing that already, I once you're like working with someone 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,160 you like, you can't mess up, you know, So I'm like, OK, I can't 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,760 miss a day. And so now I'm basically on day 33 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,400 14 and I, I don't know, I just, yeah, I feel like, I think the 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,480 biggest thing is that I feel more focused. 35 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,560 And then like on top of that, I have the energy to match my 36 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,680 focus, which is great. And this is probably the first 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,160 day where I had my mental performance shot without coffee. 38 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,320 And it's amazing. Like I honestly don't know that 39 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,160 I need coffee when I have the mental performance shot. 40 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,240 Even though it doesn't replace it, it's still it's just like 41 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,240 the coffee was kind of like a crutch. 42 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,080 Whereas like now I'm actually starting to get focus again. 43 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,200 So thanks Magic Mind for my listeners who also want to 44 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,640 invest in their mental wealth. Magic Mind is offering 48% off 45 00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:36,160 your first subscription or 20% off one time purchases with code 46 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,640 HUMAN HR 20 at checkout. Go to magicmind.com/humanHR and 47 00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:45,600 use Code Human HR 20. That's magicmind.com/human HR 48 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:50,120 with Code Human HR 20 for 48% off your first subscription or 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,520 20% off your one time purchases. Welcome to the Bringing the 50 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,560 Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 51 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,720 I'm Tracy Chernoff and I've spent my entire professional 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,680 career in HR. Each week, we'll explore the 53 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,880 delicate balance between people and business with the aim to 54 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,400 reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes. 55 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,880 Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the 56 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,440 status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about 57 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,480 our mission to bring the human back to human resources. 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,400 Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast. 59 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,520 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 60 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,920 This week, a long-awaited episode all about DENI. 61 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,040 And this is like we're recording this only a few days before this 62 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,720 episode publishes. So everything that you hear 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:43,520 today will be through as of the end of February 14th, like the 64 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,280 the very end of the day, hopefully assuming that nothing 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:54,120 changes in the next few hours. Before I really even get into 66 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,840 the the intro to introduce you to our guest this week who's 67 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,800 going to help me tremendously in talking about this very 68 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,800 important subject. I wanted to let you know that 69 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,160 actually Brian, who is our guest this week, he and I are going to 70 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,760 be doing a policy pulse episode. It's almost like let's call it a 71 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,320 series. It's we're, we're tracking for 72 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,959 and planning for one episode per month at least. 73 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:21,640 While a lot of policies are changing potentially or while a 74 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,120 lot of things are coming up. And I have to give credit to 75 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:26,400 Brian. This was his idea. 76 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,920 And I think it's a great one because, you know, there's a lot 77 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,400 to talk about. And this way if something 78 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,760 changes, the information that you're receiving is not super 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,680 old and we can kind of try and keep up with things, especially 80 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,400 considering most of you are in HR and really get a tremendous 81 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:48,320 benefit I think from being on top of or in the know with 82 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,040 different policies and changes and things like that. 83 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,680 So with that said, let me, I've already teased Brian to you, but 84 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,280 let me introduce you to Brian or actually reintroduce you if 85 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:00,840 you've been listening to the podcast for a number of years 86 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:03,080 now. Brian Driscoll has been on my 87 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,480 podcast. He was on, I think it was 88 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:09,680 episode 147 back in 2023 and he's back on because he's in my 89 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,520 mind, our resident attorney and support legal support, let's say 90 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,480 for the bringing the human back to human resources podcast, at 91 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,480 least for me, in my mind. So Brian Driscoll is a non 92 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,200 practicing lawyer, HR consultant and legal content writer. 93 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,840 As an HR consultant, Brian helps businesses navigate complex 94 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:32,440 workplace challenges, ensuring compliance while fostering fair 95 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:36,320 people centric workplaces. He also coaches individual 96 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,120 workers and job seekers, empowering them to advocate for 97 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,200 themselves, understanding their rights, and navigating career 98 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,240 transitions with confidence. On the legal content writing 99 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,000 side, Brian crafts authoritative, high impact 100 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,600 content for law firms and legal publications. 101 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,440 His work has been featured in major publications including 102 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,960 Best Lawyers, Newsweek, and Forbes, earning him recognition 103 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,320 as a trusted voice in workers rights, employment law, HR 104 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,040 compliance, and business strategy. 105 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:07,400 Brian, I am truly so grateful that you, you and I remain in 106 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,360 and that you were so open to coming on the podcast and 107 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,880 talking about DE and I and everything surrounding DE and I 108 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:16,840 with me. And I know that there are some 109 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:19,280 housekeeping items that we have, so I'm going to pass the mic to 110 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:22,840 you before we get started. Well, thank you, Tracy. 111 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:26,080 Yes, it's, it's wonderful to be back and, and yes, to keep in 112 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,760 touch over the years. I'm excited about the policy 113 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,480 polls too. I think it'll, it'll help 114 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,240 everybody sort of stay on top of everything that's changing as we 115 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,560 move through the the first few months of this, this new 116 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,520 administration. I would say that, yeah, right 117 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,440 off the bat, everything that we talked about is going to be good 118 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,000 general advice. But for specific questions that 119 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,920 any listeners may have for specific issues or guidance for 120 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,680 their business, that's something they need to reach out to their 121 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,560 employment lawyer or to an HR advisor and consultant like 122 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,760 myself to help give them more specific direction, more insight 123 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,760 onto their exact needs. So that's my little disclaimer. 124 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,800 Can't ever take the lawyer hat off so so I had had to give 125 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,040 that. Nor should you keep it on. 126 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,480 We need it. No, thank you for that. 127 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,800 And I, I'm sure that everyone appreciates the disclaimer and 128 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,840 that understanding. And I also kind of want to add a 129 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,440 little bit of an asterisk also to this disclaimer, which has 130 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:26,920 nothing to do with the legal side of things. 131 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,840 But rather I want everyone to really listen to this episode, 132 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,760 not necessarily with an open mind, but with through a lens 133 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,120 of, you know, objectivity. Because of course, when we talk 134 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:45,040 about topics like DENI, we rightfully impart our own 135 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,640 feelings and emotions because of whether we are a marginalized 136 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,360 group or a specific gender or age or whatever it might be, 137 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,720 whatever DENI means to you. And obviously we're going to 138 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,440 break down all of that because I'm really, that's like the 139 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,760 tippy top of an iceberg in terms of what diversity even is. 140 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,280 But really, I would just love for everyone listening to this 141 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:12,240 episode to really listen. And if you have a deeply held 142 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,400 belief on either side of what we would call the political 143 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,480 spectrum, that's fine. You can have that deeply held 144 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,440 belief. You do not have to be, you know, 145 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,560 on one side of the fence or the other in order to listen to or 146 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,640 appreciate this podcast. All beliefs are pretty much 147 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,080 welcome here. And certainly I, I really think 148 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,640 that if we can all come into our listening ears with a very open 149 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,080 mind, then we'll be able to really get a strong grasp of 150 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,280 what's going on, figure out the impact, what we, what we do with 151 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,280 some of these changes if we have to do anything. 152 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:51,760 And we're going to jump into all of this. 153 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,760 But I think it's a really important thing that we all 154 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:01,000 just, you know, take a breath and really work to understand 155 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,680 and, and truly listen to pretty much every single thing that's 156 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:06,120 going to come up on this episode. 157 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:07,960 We're not going to cover everything. 158 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,200 It's impossible. We'll have you here for hours 159 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,000 and hours and hours and hours and hours. 160 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,440 And you won't like us very much. So we're going to probably and 161 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,160 hopefully cover the most impactful or the most spoken 162 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,440 about aspects of some of these recent things. 163 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,040 I don't even know what the right term is. 164 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,600 Is it a thing? It's probably just a thing, 165 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,880 right? Because it's not necessarily in 166 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,800 practice yet or not. So I don't want to jump too far 167 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,600 ahead. Do you have anything to add to 168 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,240 that, Brian? I would also just add that I 169 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,400 want to sort of address the elephant in the room here. 170 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,800 And, and that is me being a white guy talking about all this 171 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,160 stuff. I could easily sit back and say, 172 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,480 you know, not my problem. But at least from my 173 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,480 perspective, that's why I need to be speaking up. 174 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:00,600 The, the, the folks who look like me are the ones who most 175 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,280 likely will benefit from any DEI rollbacks. 176 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,120 And so it's up to the people who are the beneficiaries of those 177 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,120 rollbacks to speak up and say this is not OK. 178 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,880 And that's, that's sort of my perspective on, on all of this. 179 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,240 Awesome. Thank you, Brian. 180 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,640 All right. So I think the the 1st place 181 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,280 where we have to start and this is really primarily a 182 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,640 conversation that's going to probably be more impactful for 183 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:36,400 US based listeners or listeners who have AUS based population or 184 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:40,320 employee population. There of course are some impacts 185 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,080 around the world with some, you know, US or federal government 186 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,000 decisions and we know that. But what we talked about today 187 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,720 will really be primarily focused on US decision making, US 188 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,280 governments, US legal practices and things like that. 189 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:02,360 So first and foremost, the the hot button topic is executive 190 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:06,040 order. Now, obviously, once President 191 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,400 Trump was inaugurated and like I presume every other president 192 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:15,520 preceding him, they just kind of bring up a bunch of executive 193 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,400 orders. They sign, usually they switch 194 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,080 pens. This is my very basic 195 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,360 understanding of an executive order. 196 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:23,840 Brian, can you help us to understand what is an executive 197 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:24,840 order? What? 198 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,400 What do they do? Yeah. 199 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,360 So I'm going to look at my notes for this because I want to make 200 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,200 sure we're we're specific about this stuff. 201 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,960 So, and this is all paraphrasing, but this comes 202 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:37,640 from the American Bar Association. 203 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,040 So an executive order is a directive issued by a president 204 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,600 to manage the operations of the federal government. 205 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,800 Broadly speaking, that is what an executive order is. 206 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,520 It's not mentioned in the US Constitution, but they are 207 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,680 generally considered to be an implied power of the executive 208 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:00,000 branch. So there's scope. 209 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:06,280 They are legally binding directives from the executive 210 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:11,560 branch toward federal agencies, officials in the executive 211 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,760 branch. They don't require approval from 212 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,480 Congress, which is also why some of the limitations, as I'm sure 213 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,360 everyone has been watching in the news, some of the 214 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,240 limitations of the executive orders is they cannot establish 215 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:30,600 or dissolve government agencies. That is Congress's job. 216 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,840 So like everything happening with USAID, sure, it can be 217 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,040 gutted from the inside from an executive order, but it can't 218 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,600 actually be dissolved without Congress deciding that's the 219 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,600 case. So broadly speaking, that's 220 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,000 that's sort of that's that's an executive order. 221 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,920 Thank you. It's helpful to understand. 222 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,480 And also for listeners who are outside of the US, they might be 223 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,320 like, what does all of this mean, you know, Congress versus 224 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,280 having a president? And maybe it's also helpful to 225 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,360 explain that they're, if I'm remembering correctly for my 226 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:11,000 history classes, 3 branches of government and the executive is 227 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,720 one of them. And that is the basically the 228 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,720 federal government within that branch. 229 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,120 Is that right? Correct. 230 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,960 And and technically speaking, they're Co equal branches. 231 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,360 So neither one acts as more of an emperor or, or, or an 232 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,240 authority over any other. And that's where some of these 233 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,920 issues are kind of getting into between Congress and, and, and 234 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,720 the president right now. So that's yet to be seen how all 235 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,640 all of that plays out. Right. 236 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:43,960 Well, this is an interesting point you make. 237 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,800 Some of the things that I have seen and I, I'm not looking to 238 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,120 jump ahead, we're going to get back on on the, the track here. 239 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,000 But some of the things that I've seen, especially on LinkedIn 240 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,520 have been conversations around the president or the presidency, 241 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:04,960 who, whomever is the president having more, more control or 242 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,320 more power to assert than maybe Congress, let's say, is that 243 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,840 like a, a blanket statement that's fair. 244 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:18,880 Is that incorrect? It's, it's nuanced. 245 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:25,120 So it I guess to, to that point, we can, we can talk about an 246 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,040 example that you and I have discussed previously. 247 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:37,480 We saw a LinkedIn post a few weeks ago about the, the EEO, 248 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,760 the Equal Employment Opportunity Act being dissolved by executive 249 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,280 order, like we just talked about in defining an executive order. 250 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,520 That's not possible. That's not something that the 251 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,960 president can do. And so that's sort of some of 252 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,880 the, the inaccuracies that unfortunately are spreading 253 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,600 around about, about the authority that the president 254 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,040 has, but also about the, the implications and what's 255 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,400 happening. Because if you're under, if 256 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:09,000 you're of the mindset that the the Equal Employment Opportunity 257 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,200 Act has been dissolved, then you as a business may be making you 258 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:17,520 as an HR employee for a business may be making inaccurate 259 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,320 decisions based on on that inaccurate information. 260 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,520 Right. Super helpful. 261 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,400 Thank you. And we'll probably come back to 262 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:31,760 that. Let's talk about DENI and HR and 263 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:34,960 specifically DENI within businesses. 264 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:41,480 Let's say I did an episode in 2024 when Sherm had basically 265 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:43,760 said we're not going to talk about equity anymore. 266 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:48,960 And I was like, WTF? And you know, I tried in that 267 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,600 episode. I haven't listened to it in a 268 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,920 long time, so I don't remember if I was effective or not. 269 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,080 But I tried in that episode to explain what diversity, what 270 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,400 equity and what inclusion actually mean, because a big 271 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,080 part of this, this is my opinion, I think, is that 272 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:08,920 there's a huge misunderstanding in what DE and I actually is. 273 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,080 And one of the things I believe you and I'm like looking at my 274 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,080 my notes here, I can't find it. But I think that you and I 275 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,080 talked about, is there a difference between DE and I and 276 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,960 affirmative action? And are people talking about DE 277 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,360 and I? Are they talking about 278 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,320 affirmative action? Are they talking about both? 279 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:32,400 And I wonder if while we're defining things, if we need to 280 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:37,800 further understand what DENI is, how it plays a role in 281 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:43,200 organizations, if at all, and what affirmative actions, what 282 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,320 affirmative action is, and if it plays a role in organizations, 283 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,280 if at all. So how do you want to start with 284 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:50,560 that? Do you want to talk about DENI 285 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,640 first? Sure. 286 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,920 And I think that's that topic. Yeah, I, I think, I think you 287 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,400 make a good, a good point there about how things get muddled 288 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,319 very easily because, yeah, affirmative action and and 289 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:11,680 DEIDEIBDEIA, any, any semblance of that, they are not the same. 290 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:20,000 So DEI is, and to be clear, has been around in a, in a corporate 291 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,599 setting in nomenclature for a long time. 292 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:25,720 This is not just, you know, the last three years or something. 293 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:33,240 Essentially what it is, is it's a it's, it's internal corporate 294 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:41,040 programs that prioritize not with quotas, not with, not with 295 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,000 any discrimination against maybe people who look like me to, to 296 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,200 hire historically disadvantaged people into the workforce. 297 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:56,280 It's just inclusion. It's bringing in diversity from 298 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,720 across the board and not disqualifying people who have 299 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,400 been historically disqualified from jobs because they didn't 300 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,640 look like me. That is, again, broadly 301 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,080 speaking, because every corporation can have a slightly 302 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,040 different DEI policy. It's up to them how they want to 303 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,760 do it. DEIDEI by itself is not 304 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:24,240 inherently an illegal policy. If you have quotas, if you say 305 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,480 we need to hide for every, for every 10 hires, seven of them 306 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,240 need to be, need to be minorities. 307 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,160 And, and you know, maybe you, maybe you even go further and, 308 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,920 and, and state exactly what those minorities need to be. 309 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:45,200 That is potentially illegal. But simply having ADEI program, 310 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,480 a program that says we are going to prioritize in our business. 311 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:53,920 We are going to prioritize the inclusion and and the hiring of 312 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,920 people from any background. We are not going to exclude 313 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:03,240 people because they don't fit a certain mold that that we have 314 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:08,000 stuck in our heads. That again, broadly speaking is 315 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,720 is what DEI is at the at the private corporation level. 316 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,360 Amazing, really helpful. And actually, I was thinking as 317 00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:21,800 you were sharing about this misunderstanding, and it's so 318 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,400 interesting to me, you already mentioned the word nuance, which 319 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,840 will probably say it's like if I had a dollar for every time 320 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,000 something was nuanced in the United States, but obviously 321 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,800 making levity of, you know, making light of something very 322 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,360 serious. Like what's so interesting to 323 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,640 me, I always say this, more than one thing can be true at once. 324 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,520 There's misunderstanding on both sides of the DEI argument. 325 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,720 There's misunderstanding from those who are quote UN quote 326 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:48,840 against D and I whatever that means, because I don't think 327 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,040 that people who say they're against D and I really 328 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,680 understand what it is and that's OK. 329 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,480 But you know, there's that like, Oh my gosh, we're going to be 330 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,320 shut out of jobs and opportunities because now we're 331 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,960 the bad guys. I'm really like summarizing this 332 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,400 very generally. I don't mean to offend anyone. 333 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,960 If I am, I'm sorry. And then on the other side of 334 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,680 the argument, people who are like love DE and I, we need it 335 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,040 everywhere, right? They might also have a 336 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,640 misunderstanding of what DENI is. 337 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:24,800 And that's also OK because as things evolve, and to your 338 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,200 point, D and I has been around for a very long time. 339 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,480 You know, we're talking about programmatic approaches to 340 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,800 organizational development and employee experience. 341 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,960 We're talking about HR and as long as I've been in the 342 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:44,760 workforce, I don't ever recall quotas for certain groups, 343 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,880 either minorities or otherwise. And I think that's where like 344 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,760 the one side that, you know, there's that belief that that's 345 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,320 what's happening. And then again, on the other 346 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:59,960 side of, you know, the, the pro, let's say pro DNI versus anti 347 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:04,760 DNI, the pro DNI argument is also sometimes convoluted 348 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,840 because I think sometimes people outside of HR think that there 349 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,920 should be quotas. And you know, this is where you 350 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,880 see almost like the horseshoe effect in anything, but 351 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,920 especially on the political spectrum where everyone's kind 352 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:24,280 of talking about the same kind of stuff, but not using the same 353 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,040 dialect. And this is where I think like 354 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,480 defining things can really help us to understand well, what is 355 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,800 my deeply held belief like the the audience knows that DE and I 356 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,800 is important to me because as an HR person, I believe that a 357 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,560 diversity in thought and experience and industry and all 358 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,240 of that and race, religion and creed. 359 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,200 And it brings unique perspective and equity, ensures that people 360 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,400 all have the, you know, an equitable approach to 361 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,320 opportunities and inclusion ensures that people are actually 362 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,360 at the table to have or to be afforded those opportunities. 363 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,160 And this is where it's like, OK, if we take away, this is where 364 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,640 it's like, how do we unveil our own emotions around things that 365 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,280 are deeply impactful to people in at least in their, their 366 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,320 mind, body and spirit. And so with that understanding 367 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,880 that there it is OK to have a misunderstanding of DE and I, 368 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,560 regardless of what side you're on. 369 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,640 And if you're watching the video, you're seeing me do a lot 370 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,240 of left and right here. But it's like, this is how I'm 371 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,320 representing the different sides. 372 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,840 How does DE and I then, now we have this understanding of the 373 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,160 programmatic approach that DE and I is and has on 374 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,600 organizations and has been around for a long time. 375 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,720 How does that differ from something like affirmative 376 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,640 action? And where do we see affirmative 377 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:50,360 action today? So I do want to address 1 one 378 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:56,720 thing that you said and and that is sort of the the often times 379 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,520 unintentional misunderstanding of what DEI is. 380 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:08,320 It is not in any way the discrimination against white 381 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,880 men. It is not in any way the hiring 382 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,080 of unqualified people, overqualified people, because 383 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,160 the unqualified person happens to be a minority. 384 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,640 That is not what DEI is. In fact, I could make make the 385 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,880 argument and provide many examples for people who look 386 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,880 like me, who've been hired for positions and are not qualified, 387 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:33,920 but are hired because they look like me. 388 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,160 I think that when when comparing affirmative action to DE, I, I 389 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,640 think it's important to also just state unequivocally that 390 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:52,320 DEI is not a government mandated, government instituted 391 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,440 government policy of any kind. Affirmative action is. 392 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,680 So again, I'm going to look at my notes here just to make sure 393 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,240 we're being specific. Affirmative action, again, 394 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,400 broadly speaking, refers to policies and practices designed 395 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:17,080 often times by the government to help address historical and 396 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,760 systemic disadvantages to certain underrepresented groups 397 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:27,240 in the workplace. It's, it is a, it's more of a 398 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,760 policy driven focus than it is A, and a, a corporate 399 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,640 initiative. If, if that's a clear enough 400 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,400 distinction. I think DEI is more about 401 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,360 cultural transformation and making the workplace look like 402 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,960 the neighborhood look like the country. 403 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:54,760 And affirmative action is a, is a way to sort of help address 404 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,280 some of those, some of those challenges that certain groups 405 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,680 in this country have, have and continue to face today. 406 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,320 That's really helpful. And I really like how you've 407 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,560 helped us to understand where the the government plays a role 408 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:14,480 in terms of like mandates or regulations or policies versus 409 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,640 where they don't. And I just, I really think about 410 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,800 D and I like any other corporate organizational focus. 411 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,080 It's like, OK, if you want to start offering workplace 412 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,440 benefits or perks, it's you know, you, you're taking a, 413 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,120 you're, you're looking at DE and I, when you do that, you're 414 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:37,040 like, who's going to use this? How do we ensure it's inclusive? 415 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,120 So if someone can't run or walk, they can expense a workplace, 416 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,280 you know, a Wellness benefit, for example, for, you know, 417 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,560 meditation, right? Like the DE and I is infused in 418 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,360 so many things and it has nothing to do with the 419 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,360 government. Now what I want to ask you 420 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,560 specifically is, and I've gotten this question through DMS 421 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:04,680 emails, how does one or more of these executive orders, I know 422 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,120 that there are dozens. How do these executive orders 423 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,920 actually impact people in Business Today? 424 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,720 What is the difference or the in the impact between the public 425 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,320 and the private sector or government organizations, non 426 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,160 government organizations? Is there an impact? 427 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,880 I mean, yes, there there's always some level of impact. 428 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:32,040 And to be clear, while DEI is not a government initiative or 429 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,640 or law so to speak, like we just talked about, there are 430 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,200 government agencies that do have DEI programs. 431 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,840 And that is to your point about executive orders, that is one of 432 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:47,360 the executive orders that was signed on January 20th to I 433 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:50,320 think it was 60 or 90 days was was the timeline provided. 434 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,600 Every government agency had to dissolve its DEI programs, 435 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,640 terminate people working under those under those programs, 436 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,880 employees in DEI, not those who were hired under under programs. 437 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:10,520 So the impact there initially is for the government. 438 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:17,240 Now the administration has made very clear both from executive 439 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,560 orders, but also from a note from the Attorney General, Pam 440 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:26,640 Bondi last week or the week before a a formal memo where she 441 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,000 basically put private employers on notice. 442 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,240 And so there's from my perspective and some of the 443 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,040 conversations that I'm having with with clients and other 444 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,280 people in this space is what do we do right? 445 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:46,360 Like these are, these may not impact us yet, but they might. 446 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,400 So do we need to just wait for things to settle? 447 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,960 Do we need to be proactive and take some steps? 448 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,880 And I don't think either approach is wrong. 449 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,200 Personally, I, I do advocate for not being reactive to some of 450 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,960 this stuff. I definitely suggest to clients 451 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,000 that we just take a minute, evaluate, evaluate your DEI 452 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,760 program. Let's understand, let's take a 453 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,360 look at it, let's audit it. Let's let's make sure that 454 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,000 there's no quotas in there or anything like that that are 455 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:25,080 really red flags. But otherwise, let's let's wait 456 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,920 because you know, as we talked about, there were numerous 457 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:29,600 executive orders signed on January 20th. 458 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,000 There were also numerous lawsuits brought on January 459 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,280 20th. So we need to wait for some of 460 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,720 these things. There have been stays issued in 461 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,840 in certain circumstances on some of the executive orders. 462 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,720 So we, we do just need to wait and let things settle and sort 463 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,440 of understand that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be prepared 464 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,080 for something going One Direction or another or modified 465 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,920 from the original executive order. 466 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,200 So that's where it's important to understand where your 467 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,840 business is. And I will make one caveat here 468 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,680 because we're talking we're, we're making distinctions which 469 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,280 is good between sort of the government and private 470 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,680 employers. But there, there are companies, 471 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,280 there are private companies that have government contracts. 472 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,720 And generally speaking in those in order to get those government 473 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,200 contracts, you agree to adhere to certain terms of the 474 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,680 government and those might include executive orders, 475 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:30,400 disbanding DEI programs. So for those employers, the 476 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,560 there might be more urgency on what do we do. 477 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,360 And again, I would say the same thing, audit your DEI program, 478 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,560 make sure that there's nothing like quotas or or anything 479 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,400 that's that's discriminatory within it. 480 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,080 And then you have to determine, here's some of the political 481 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,960 part. You have to determine how much 482 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:56,560 of A stance you want to take. If you're, if you're of the 483 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,360 mindset that DEI has been beneficial to your business, 484 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,960 then maybe you keep things as is and you know, you stand your 485 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,560 ground and you say our DEI program is entirely legal until 486 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,560 Congress passes a law that says you can't have DEI programs in 487 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,440 private companies. This is what we have. 488 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,000 If you're not quite of that mindset and you want to disband 489 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,600 your DEI program, you're well within your rights to do that. 490 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:28,160 But don't think that you have to do that even if you have federal 491 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,040 contractors or you have a contract with the federal 492 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,880 government, because as long as your DEI program is not 493 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,720 discriminatory. And to be clear, maybe this is 494 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,120 something we should have said at the beginning, discrimination in 495 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,760 hiring is illegal. And so this is not, there is no 496 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,400 discrimination happening here. That's that's I think the 497 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,400 ultimate point. And as long as your program 498 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,040 adheres to that, to that rule, to that law, then even if you 499 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,840 have government contracts, you technically are fine. 500 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,040 Does that mean you might get sued under this administration? 501 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,880 Yeah, you might. So that's what I that's what I 502 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,600 mean at the beginning when I said, you know, it's kind of a 503 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,080 balancing act. And talk to your people about 504 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,560 your specific situation to understand sort of how hard you 505 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:20,320 want to push and what you're prepared to to change within 506 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,440 your within your organization. Very informational and very 507 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,600 helpful. I have a couple questions and 508 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,120 these are not questions that I already know the answer to. 509 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,720 I just want to preface this. These are like real questions 510 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,920 that I have for you. I don't have them written down. 511 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:41,360 Let's say in the event that there is a company in the 512 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,400 private sector, we'll be very clear here with this example. 513 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,320 I don't know that this is true. I'm just making this up. 514 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:52,480 A company in the private sector that has quotas today and says, 515 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,400 OK, well, we, you know, in an effort to diversify our 516 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,960 workforce, we want X number of people, you know, 30% of our 517 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,960 population to be from this race, 51% of our population to be 518 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,640 female and X percentage of candidates going through the 519 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,800 recruitment process that are reflective of those percentages. 520 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:24,080 So 1 male versus one female at every like, you know, final 521 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,320 interview process. Let's just say I could, I could 522 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,040 see where the quotas could be well intended. 523 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,480 You know, if someone's like, I really want to diversify my 524 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,800 workforce and so I want there to be representation in the 525 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,040 candidate process in order to do that. 526 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,920 So maybe it's less about quotas at the end of the process where 527 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,160 you're, you know, I'm kind of asking two things here. 528 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,000 And this is just how complicated this topic is sometimes in my 529 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,000 mind. So maybe I'll break it down like 530 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:56,280 if there's a, if there's a company that's doing that, even 531 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,800 if they're well intended, is that, is that legal for them to 532 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,680 do? Like just on the surface without 533 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,680 having any other information, obviously, because this is like 534 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,120 a fake example that I'm using. Because I, I, I ask that because 535 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,960 even if the intentions are good, my understanding is that that's 536 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,840 not actually an effective way of diversifying your workforce. 537 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,040 Obviously you need to have representation, but that could 538 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,200 be grounds for being illegal in the, you know, understanding of 539 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,320 what is discriminatory versus what isn't, even if the 540 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,440 intention is to diversify. Am I, am I off base with that? 541 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,200 Is there? Do you think there's something 542 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,200 like that out there? I've definitely seen companies 543 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,560 with that for sure. And you're right, the the 544 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:46,680 intention can be pure, but the the result is still a violation 545 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,480 or potentially in this scenario a violation of the law. 546 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,520 I don't recommend quotas generally. 547 00:33:52,560 --> 00:34:01,320 I mean, it's, I'll, I'll, I'll give an example here of, of, and 548 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,520 this may not even be a great example, but let's run with it. 549 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,800 Jury selection has to be under the Constitution, under Supreme 550 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,120 Court precedent, jury selection, the jury pool has to be 551 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,639 representative of the residents in that community. 552 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:26,880 So if you live in a community that is, say, 70% minority, and 553 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,920 then you have a jury pool and it's 90% white, that would be 554 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,080 against the law. That would not be representative 555 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,920 of the community. Now, to be clear, the jury 556 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,199 itself can be all white. It's the pool that has to be 557 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,239 representative of the community, not the final jury. 558 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:44,560 So. Oh. 559 00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:46,840 Oh, yeah, that's interesting. Right. 560 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,719 OK, interesting. So that's, so that's where like 561 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,960 it's it, it is kind of a quasi quota in that regard. 562 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:01,000 But I, I wouldn't recommend that type of approach for companies 563 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:10,240 because like you said, quotas, quotas make it much more, much 564 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:15,200 more likely that there's discrimination happening and it 565 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,480 makes it puts it on the face it, it, it's right there in front of 566 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,280 you. And so that I just, I don't 567 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,680 recommend quotas. To your point, there are a 568 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:29,120 multitude of ways to have a a solid, effective DEI program 569 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,440 within your organization that addresses the culture, not just 570 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,600 having a certain number of different races on your team. 571 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,760 Totally. You know, with DENIA, lot of 572 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,280 what comes up is this concept of representation and that, you 573 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,640 know, let's take an example of a woman going through an interview 574 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,040 process. If they never interview with 575 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,560 another woman, then it's like, well, where's the 576 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:54,240 representation? This comes up a lot. 577 00:35:54,280 --> 00:36:02,160 And I think it's a good example of how DENI is in my mind at 578 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,480 least. And it kind of goes back to what 579 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,040 you said more about how a company operates in terms of 580 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,920 like what their culture is, what they want the employee 581 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,200 experience to be. And I, I feel like it's 582 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,000 important to note that this, as you said, this has been around 583 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,000 for a long time. Companies that care about having 584 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,520 diversity, especially in thought, because people of the 585 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,280 same background are not, you know, they could also have 586 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,600 diverse thoughts like from one another, depending on how they 587 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,480 grew up. I don't want to get too 588 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:36,440 convoluted in this, but companies that care about having 589 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,800 different voices and different people on their team and 590 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,800 different backgrounds have always cared about those things 591 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,200 and probably will always care about those things. 592 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:45,880 And we'll always care about DE and I. 593 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,920 And I think when we, you and I first spoke about doing this 594 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,880 episode, I even said, well, you know, just like any good 595 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:57,080 consumer, if you go and you do research on a product or in this 596 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,640 case, a company that you're considering applying for, sorry 597 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,560 everyone, you're probably going to hear babies crying in the 598 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,960 background. If I wait any longer, we might 599 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:06,760 be waiting for another 30 minutes at this point. 600 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,280 They're OK, They're with a caregiver, They are fine. 601 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:11,840 They just woke up cranky from a nap. 602 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,800 But anyway, what I was saying is that with with any good consumer 603 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,480 approach, you're going to do research into the job hopefully 604 00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,400 or the company that you are applying for. 605 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,600 And if you see that they don't have a diversity statement, you 606 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,880 look at their, you know, C-Suite and you don't see representation 607 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,960 that you believe that that is important to you or that you 608 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,160 believe you should see for the company at depending on their 609 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,520 size or whatever, then you can and you have the ability to make 610 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,200 decisions for yourself. Now, obviously, that's 611 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,720 notwithstanding if someone is in need of a job, they might not 612 00:37:49,720 --> 00:37:52,160 be, you know, first looking at that or caring about that. 613 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,360 They're just looking for employment. 614 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,200 And I get that. But at the end of the day, if 615 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,960 everyone's worried about seed oils, you're not going to 616 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,640 continue to buy stuff with seed oils, right? 617 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,800 And if you're concerned about DENI and you want there to be 618 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,000 representation that's reflective of your own background or your 619 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,880 preferences or whatever, you should also do that and be the 620 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:17,000 consumer that you want to be. Now with that, I, I want to know 621 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,240 like from your perspective and, and maybe even from what some of 622 00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:24,320 your clients have shared, you've already talked about what, you 623 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,000 know, what happens now? Like, you know, let's hit pause. 624 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,720 Let's take a step back from being reactive. 625 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,960 What what do like, how does this impact us today? 626 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,040 Do we take the same approach as individuals within businesses in 627 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,760 terms of, you know, really just taking a, taking a pause, taking 628 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:49,480 a beat to see what sticks? That's that's kind of where I'm 629 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,000 at today. Now, as we all know, things are 630 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,960 moving rapidly and that could change by the time we end this 631 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,880 recording. But that is that is my approach 632 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,480 today. And I say that because of all 633 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,960 the legal challenges that are working their way through and 634 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,200 these are not going, these are not like, you know, big tobacco 635 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,920 lawsuits that are going to take 15 years to, to, to, to 636 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:14,920 finalize. These are things that the courts 637 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,640 are prioritizing and, and are fast tracked. 638 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,960 I would anticipate in the next week or two that there will be 639 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,360 cases before the Supreme Court already that, that they may at 640 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,520 least accept, they may not hear them yet, but they they may at 641 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,840 least accept them for, for the upcoming term. 642 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,760 But I think that I think that's, that's kind of my approach right 643 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,760 now is to start thinking about these things. 644 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:44,880 That's, you know, that's why we're having this conversation 645 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,960 today to start thinking about what it is, where my business 646 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,320 wants to go, where, where is my stance? 647 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,720 Where's the line for me? It do I have ADEI program? 648 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:59,200 Am I thinking about implementing one if I already have one? 649 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:04,040 Is it, is it compliant? You know, is it discriminatory 650 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:05,680 in any way? Do I need to make any changes to 651 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:07,160 it? Those are the things to start 652 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,680 thinking about. I don't think again in this 653 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,600 moment on Valentine's Day. I don't think there's any action 654 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,720 that needs to be taken outside of companies that maybe have 655 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:22,040 quotas because I think there's just there's so much yet to 656 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:28,680 settle and even if, even if. The the the president and the 657 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,920 attorney General get their way and and they want to start suing 658 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,600 private, private corporations, which actually has already 659 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,680 happened in Missouri. This past week, the Missouri AG 660 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,600 filed suit against a company for having quotas in their DEI 661 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:48,840 program. So even even if the AG and the 662 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,560 President get their way, it might be slightly different than 663 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:58,000 what they want. Now, will the courts, you know, 664 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,320 will they listen to the courts? That's yet to be said because 665 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,160 the administration has said they won't. 666 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,160 So, you know, that is a totally different discussion. 667 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,320 But I think waiting to see where things fall, waiting to see 668 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:16,080 where things settle. I, I think things are going to 669 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,320 going to change a little bit. But again, having those internal 670 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,880 discussions, having those discussions with your employment 671 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,520 council, having those discussions with HR consultants 672 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,760 and advisors inside of your HR team and figuring out, being 673 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,760 prepared for if this happens, then this is what we're going to 674 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,960 do. Not thinking about every 675 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,080 possible scenario that's, that's pointless. 676 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,480 But broadly speaking, thinking about do we need to make any 677 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,040 adjustments to our program? And a lot of people, a lot of 678 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,760 companies, here's another, another important point that I 679 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,320 think a lot of companies need to hear is that they should have 680 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,040 data on their workforce. A lot of a lot of corporations, 681 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,200 especially smaller businesses under 50 just don't have that 682 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,480 data. Now today, it's easier to pull 683 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,440 when you're using, you know, an online payment system for your 684 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:08,960 payroll. You can run reports pretty 685 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,640 easily on stuff like that. But it's it's good to have that 686 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,400 information not only internally to understand where you are as a 687 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,120 corporation in your diversity and inclusion efforts, but also 688 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,640 to be able to defend yourself against any potential lawsuits 689 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,240 from the government or the state that may want to force you to 690 00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:34,920 disband your equity and inclusion. 691 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,720 Very. Interesting. 692 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,400 This actually makes me think about like states like 693 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,560 California that require if you have I think it's over 100 694 00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:45,800 employees. Maybe I'm wrong about that. 695 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,360 Double check me if you're like using this as fact where you 696 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:54,320 have to submit information anonymized but information about 697 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,920 your workforce as part of the EEO 1. 698 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,800 I think it's the EEO one reporting it's so it's part of 699 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,280 the EEOI. Guess either it's at the state 700 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,160 level. That's my understanding, but 701 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,280 it's interesting because you know, you have to also provide 702 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,200 information on your contractors like these. 703 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,160 You know, these are all things that from an HR standpoint like 704 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,400 we should be doing from a compliance standpoint already is 705 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,680 like really understanding to your point how the employee 706 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:27,520 population breaks down. And I also, not to belabor that 707 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,120 point, but you know, when I think about the HR 708 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,160 responsibility, just fundamentally when it comes to 709 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,080 government decisions, anything related to compliance, anything 710 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,840 that could become, you know, go from an executive order to then, 711 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,480 you know, a congressional discussion and, and effectively 712 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,920 a law at some point or a new policy. 713 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:55,160 There is a responsibility on those of us who manage or 714 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,240 mitigate compliance to really understand what's going on. 715 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:04,920 And also to be a part of the solution and I say that because 716 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,840 I think there we have to siphon out some of the noise. 717 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:12,720 When you mentioned it at the top of this recording that there we 718 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:18,040 saw from a few people already, HR thought leaders, very well 719 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,520 respected leaders in general on LinkedIn and other places 720 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,960 talking about things that are not accurate, like the 721 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,880 dissolution of the EEO Act, which is just not what's at 722 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,680 least hopefully not what's happening. 723 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:36,160 And there's a responsibility that we all have. 724 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,760 I have especially this responsibility as having a 725 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:40,960 podcast and talking into the ether. 726 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:46,040 You know, every week you have to either you have to say, Hey, 727 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:50,520 Fact Check me, or you have to provide resources, I should say 728 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:56,480 and, or, and or you need to not spread information that isn't 729 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,120 categorically true. Because what happens is then the 730 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,480 noise that is already, I want to say deafening, but in a way it's 731 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,360 just like there's just so much, it can be very overwhelming. 732 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,960 And what ends up happening is that that noise translates to 733 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,160 fear. And I just don't subscribe to a 734 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,400 fear based reaction. It's like, OK, what is happening 735 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,960 here? Like everyone was like messaging 736 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:23,960 me. Are you going to talk about DNA? 737 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,480 I'm like, let's all just relax for a moment. 738 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,400 Let's figure out what it is that we have to talk about, which is 739 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,760 why you're here today because there's so much we can't. 740 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,240 It's just so counterproductive to, you know, raise up our arms 741 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,000 and be reactive and be afraid because all that does is we then 742 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,200 like we're doom scrolling and we're like, Oh my gosh, this 743 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,640 person said this is happening. This person said that all of my 744 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,040 rights are going away. This person said the EEO Act is 745 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,040 dissolving. And what ends up happening is 746 00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,080 we're only, we know how social media works. 747 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,560 We only then end up getting our own information that could also 748 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,480 still be false. And so there's a responsibility 749 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,200 that we have as thought leaders, as people who put information 750 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,840 out there to just like make sure that it's either accurate in 751 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:19,240 that moment or that it's reflective as a, as an opinion 752 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,520 or as it, as a, you know, someone's own fear. 753 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:28,800 And so with that diatribe that I've just shared, taking a step 754 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,760 off of my soapbox for a moment, what do you say to someone or to 755 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:38,480 people who are afraid presently, who are afraid that they are 756 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,680 losing their rights in turn, like especially those who are 757 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:46,320 part of marginalized groups, what do you say to them, to 758 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,040 people who are afraid, to people who worry that they are now 759 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,560 going to be, you know, regressed in terms of their place within 760 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,400 organizations and within their career? 761 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,040 Like what do you say to the fear? 762 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,280 I want to step on your soapbox for a second because. 763 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:09,200 Push it toward you. The the word you just used and 764 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,760 used a minute ago in your in your diatribe. 765 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:20,440 Yeah, this, this will be a political statement. 766 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,120 I and if my politics weren't clear already, here they are. 767 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,160 Fear is the point. This administration wants to put 768 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:33,240 fear in people they see as other, they see as illegitimate. 769 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,160 That is the point. That is the point of so many of 770 00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:46,000 these executive orders. And I don't, it's hard to know 771 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,440 what to say to people because it it, it is, it is fearful. 772 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:56,120 It is terrifying for some people and not everybody has the 773 00:47:56,120 --> 00:48:01,200 ability to change jobs to pick up and and move to a bluer 774 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,280 state. You know, if if you do, 775 00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:11,160 certainly go for it, you know, vote with your with your tax 776 00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:15,560 dollars. Like, I think that that for some 777 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:21,000 people, they need to just hear that there are people out there 778 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,640 who support them and who are willing to advocate for them. 779 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,320 Again, to go back to something I said earlier, that's that's why 780 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,160 I have over the past couple of weeks tried to be so loud about 781 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,320 this because I feel like it's my responsibility as someone who 782 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,760 could potentially benefit from these executive orders and these 783 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,640 law changes to speak out. Not only to, to try and push 784 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:51,440 back against some of these, but also to provide that support to 785 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,800 these marginalized communities. To let them know that there are 786 00:48:54,800 --> 00:49:00,640 people out here who, don't get me wrong, I can't walk in your 787 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,680 shoes. I, I can to a point, I can 788 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,680 empathize with you and, and what you've been through, but I will 789 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:11,600 never 100% know, but know that people like me are out there 790 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:18,120 fighting and pushing back to try and to try and reduce some of 791 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:22,760 that fear, to try and make people feel comfortable not only 792 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,880 in their own skin, but also at work where they can be 793 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,280 themselves. And I think I, I, I don't know, 794 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,120 I don't know how much comfort that is. 795 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:39,080 And it's, it's probably a little unfulfilling in, in a response, 796 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:43,680 but I do think that there are, there are good people out there. 797 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:48,000 There are good companies out there and even if you right now 798 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:53,560 feel stuck where you are, know that a door may open tomorrow 799 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,440 and there are other places that you can go I. 800 00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:01,440 Mean stay that stay on that soapbox. 801 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:07,480 I, you know, I, it does make me think about, I'm this is again, 802 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,720 summarizing and generalizing in a way that's just take it for 803 00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:16,880 what it's worth. These rollbacks, if they happen, 804 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,160 does. I don't believe that that means 805 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,400 that companies tomorrow will start to discriminate against 806 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,520 people. Do you think that's fair to say? 807 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:32,520 I think it's, I think it's fair to say with a disclaimer that 808 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,840 there will be some companies that are looking to 809 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:36,960 discriminate. There will be some companies 810 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,480 that want to go back to the 1950s or even the 1850s. 811 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,680 You know, what's so funny about that is that, you know, in the 812 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,200 1950s, women had their place in the world and so people thought 813 00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:55,200 and yet even now they're still with, with my point here, I'm 814 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,040 going to, I'm going to be clear about it at the end. 815 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:02,720 Even now with D and I and other, you know, regulatory change, not 816 00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:06,120 other because D and I is not regulatory, but DEI and 817 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:11,240 regulatory things and policies, women are still subjugated. 818 00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:18,440 And I say that with a chuckle because my point is that I think 819 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,760 that there's, I always look to find inspiration for people. 820 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,400 This is just who I am. I don't try to make light of 821 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,680 serious things because I know that this is serious for many 822 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:36,120 people at many levels. So please don't mistake my, my 823 00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,560 like, finding the bright side as like being out of touch. 824 00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,080 That's not what's happening here. 825 00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:43,400 I'm very in touch with everything. 826 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:52,160 I think I, I think this is where we as people, whatever, you 827 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,920 know, whatever groups we are a part of, whether we're 828 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:59,400 marginalized or we're not marginalized, this is where we 829 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,440 have an impact. We can you know, there, there 830 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,680 were times where people of certain backgrounds, races, 831 00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:13,520 creeds, genders, we're not welcome in places to your point, 832 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,680 there are places that hope for that to return. 833 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:21,720 They probably have always felt that way and there were places 834 00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,880 that always did the right thing. And so I think this is where 835 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,560 like we as individual, on an individual level and as HR 836 00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:35,240 people, we have the ability to your point to be like to lend an 837 00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:40,960 ear to express advocacy for a person or group. 838 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,920 We have the opportunity to really continue to transform 839 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,280 workplaces. This is like when I think about 840 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,520 the ethos of my podcast, I started it in 20, the fall of 841 00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:57,520 2020, because I was sick and tired of scrolling on like, oh 842 00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,160 God, I hate to say it, Clubhouse. 843 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,800 I used to participate in that God forsaken thing, Clubhouse. 844 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,320 And like LinkedIn and other social media and everyone, 845 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,120 especially HR leaders, OK, not everyone. 846 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,360 That's a blanket statement. A lot of people that I saw we're 847 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,600 engaging in conversations about furloughs and layoffs and COVID 848 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:24,320 from the basis of numbers and company decisions. 849 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,600 And I was like, is everyone delusional? 850 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,800 There are people at the, at the core of this, you know, And so 851 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,640 this is where like, if I really come back to the, the reason why 852 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:42,040 this podcast exists today, it is for all of us in HR or, and, or 853 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,560 outside of HR, because everyone contributes to what a workplace 854 00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:49,320 is like. We have the opportunity to make 855 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,680 things right for people, regardless of whether a 856 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,800 government tells us to do it or not. 857 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,720 And this is like, I say the same thing with, you know, any type 858 00:53:58,720 --> 00:54:02,880 of regulation, like there's a minimum wage pay more than that. 859 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,360 Like the regulations are important. 860 00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,800 And I think you and I talked about this offline regulations 861 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:13,240 are really important to ensure that businesses are fair, like 862 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:16,720 just fundamentally that people are treated fairly and that 863 00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:18,880 business businesses operate fairly. 864 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:23,480 Very fundamental it. It is not a playbook for 865 00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,400 companies. Companies have to determine what 866 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:30,120 is the right thing, what is going to drive the most 867 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,160 engagement from people. How do I treat people with 868 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,240 respect and dignity and consideration? 869 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:41,960 And that to me is D and I. But that is how you ensure that 870 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:47,720 these things, you know, are not so scary because you still have 871 00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:49,920 control. Now, obviously there's an 872 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,680 asterisk there in the event that there is a law that effects a 873 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:58,040 particular company or sector of companies or you know, as you 874 00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:59,840 mentioned, if there are government contracts. 875 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,160 So that's notwithstanding all of that. 876 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:07,480 But we all have, we all make an impact and we all have the 877 00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:12,880 opportunity to make an impact. I again, not intending to like 878 00:55:13,240 --> 00:55:15,400 look at the world with rose colored glasses and make 879 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,800 everyone feel invalidated. Not my goal. 880 00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:23,600 I just like to see the opportunity even for myself in 881 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,600 terms of how I influence my own company, you know, is that am I 882 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,240 like totally off base? No, I think I think that's 883 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:33,720 that's an important point. I will, I will suck up to you 884 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:35,800 for a second and say the the whole reason I found your 885 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,640 podcast was because of the tagline. 886 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,480 And I think I think I found it around the holidays in 2020. 887 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,480 So you hadn't been doing it, doing it that long, but that was 888 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:45,680 the whole reason I started listening to it. 889 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:50,640 But it's, it's, it's an important point that you make 890 00:55:50,640 --> 00:56:01,760 because there's, there's a, there's a, there's often times a 891 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:08,120 disconnect between what HR used to be and what it is today. 892 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,640 And what it used to be was a company asset protection 893 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:17,000 division. Today, to your point, it's about 894 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,840 people in the corporations that prioritize their people. 895 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,400 You know, I've said, and I may have even said this last time I 896 00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:29,120 was on your podcast, that even if you're a just a, a mean 897 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,720 spirited business owner and you don't care about your people, 898 00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:32,920 you don't care about your employees. 899 00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,960 You don't care if they're, if they're happy, healthy, engaged 900 00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,120 employees. I can show you the data that 901 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:44,280 says you should because if you have healthy, healthy, happy, 902 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,440 engaged employees, you have productive employees that make 903 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,320 you more money. And if that's your ultimate goal 904 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,320 is to make more money and you don't care at all about your 905 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,200 team, you should because the end result is still what you want. 906 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:00,080 That is the best way to get there. 907 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:04,600 But there are, there are so many companies that, that are taking 908 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,880 the mindset shift that has happened not just over the last 909 00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:10,680 four years for sure, but over the last couple of decades, 910 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:14,440 moving from HR as a, as a company asset protection 911 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,360 division to a true people experience, a, a people and 912 00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:24,880 culture division that, that fights for better benefits. 913 00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:30,080 That, you know, bridges the gap between what potentially greedy 914 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,560 business owners want and what employees need to be able to, 915 00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:38,720 you know, provide for their, for their kids to be able to buy the 916 00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:40,280 products that they're helping to make. 917 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,560 You know, this is this is a, this is a different approach and 918 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:49,960 part of that encompasses inclusion, diversity, bringing 919 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,920 together people of of all sorts of different backgrounds and 920 00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:56,640 experiences, because that also helps grow a business. 921 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,240 When you have just a bunch of white dudes sitting in there, 922 00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,880 they've all had pretty much the same background and, and lived 923 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,000 experience. But when you've got a diverse 924 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:10,080 team coming, coming to a table to solve a problem with your 925 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,320 market or your product or whatever it is, you're going to 926 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,640 have so many different, different, different approaches 927 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,320 and opinions and suggestions on how to go about this that it's 928 00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,520 actually going to enrich the environment, enrich the process, 929 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:26,800 and ultimately enrich your business. 930 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:32,400 Totally Amen to all of that. And, you know, as you were 931 00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,960 sharing this, I was like, minimum wage is like such a poor 932 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,280 example of how businesses can do the right thing, But parental 933 00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:46,080 leave is the perfect example. FMLA is 12 measly weeks. 934 00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:53,960 Like meager, meager businesses have the ability to do more. 935 00:58:54,600 --> 00:59:00,320 And you're either going to find organizations that do the just 936 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:04,160 that or maybe they're not even, you know, eligible for FMLA and 937 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:05,680 they don't even offer parental leave. 938 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,720 That's certainly a commonality. Or you have businesses that 939 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,840 offer more and actually parental leave, not even talking about 940 00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,480 maternity versus paternity. Parental leave is a perfect 941 00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:20,440 example of DE and I in the workplace because sure, there is 942 00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:25,200 a policy side of things in terms of regulation and federal 943 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,040 programming and state pay and all of that stuff. 944 00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:34,520 But businesses that want a more diverse organization, I'm really 945 00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:35,840 sorry for the babies in the background. 946 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:36,840 I think it's probably dinner time. 947 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:41,080 The, the, the divert the companies that want a more 948 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:45,800 diverse workforce offer better benefits like that because they 949 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:51,080 know that it's very possible that women won't really work for 950 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:54,520 them if they don't have a strong maternity leave. 951 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,920 And hopefully there are fathers out there who won't really want 952 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,000 to work for them because they don't have a strong paternity 953 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,760 leave. And, and you know, on the flip 954 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:06,520 side of that, when you see you like, if they're again coming 955 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,960 back to this, if there's a diversity statement, if you see 956 01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:11,800 that there's a 16 week parental leave, I know that like for 957 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,120 those listeners who are not in the US, especially those in 958 01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,560 Canada, they're, they're like 16 weeks. 959 01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,600 That's all you get when they get like a year. 960 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,640 But like you know, 16 weeks is considered like a richer benefit 961 01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:29,000 in the United States. And so I, I think I hope we 962 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,600 accomplished what we set out to accomplish in this episode. 963 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,720 We, you know, for me at least as the host and owner of this 964 01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,720 podcast, I really try with every episode, with every guest to 965 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:44,840 challenge how we think and really have a deeper 966 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:48,080 understanding of how our responsibility and what we can 967 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,200 do about, you know, different decisions that are either made 968 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:55,760 for us or that are coming up and how we better understand 969 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,120 everything. So with that, Brian, do you want 970 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,840 to kind of share where everyone can find you and connect? 971 01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,280 And of course, we're going to see you back again in a month 972 01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,840 for our policy pulse, which I'm really excited about. 973 01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:12,080 Yeah, absolutely. I, before I get to that, I will 974 01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,360 say just, I want to wrap up and say just three points for, for 975 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,400 listeners that are sort of the key points at this point, at 976 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:24,720 this stage as of February 14th with everything that's happening 977 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:27,000 and that is to conduct a policy audit. 978 01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:31,120 It's good to do this annually anyway, but do it now 979 01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,560 specifically for any DEI and hiring policies that you have. 980 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,600 If you have any questions at all, seek legal guidance, 981 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,360 contact someone like me, an HR consultant or advisor, talk to 982 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:48,520 your internal team, figure out what steps you need to take, and 983 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,640 then continue, hopefully continue to foster an inclusive 984 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:57,040 culture through fairness and and equal opportunity, ensuring that 985 01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:01,560 anyone and every employee that you hire feels valued and 986 01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:05,320 welcomed in your organization. I think those those are the, 987 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:11,000 the, the three things that people should do right now in 988 01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:12,560 preparation for a lot of the changes. 989 01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,240 So where can you find me? My website is just my name, 990 01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,920 Brian J driscoll.com. I spell my name with AY, not to 991 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,000 be confused with the acting FBI director, who is also Brian J 992 01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,600 Driscoll. Oh my God, yeah. 993 01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,240 Scary. When I when I Google my name, 994 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,200 I'm also on LinkedIn. I don't do a ton of social 995 01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:40,640 media, but I, I am on LinkedIn. Brian John Driscoll is my handle 996 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:42,000 there. Amazing. 997 01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:48,240 And is there a place or a resource where listeners can go 998 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,600 in order to have a better understanding of some of these 999 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:57,680 policies or changes that are potentially happening or where 1000 01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,600 they can get their best, you know, where can they get like 1001 01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,680 the most factual information? Yeah. 1002 01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:10,640 So outside of having someone you can lean on call, e-mail, text 1003 01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:15,680 for your specific questions. Outside of that to get general 1004 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:21,600 broad updates on what's happening and possible guidance. 1005 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,920 Again, general guidance on on how to how to move forward. 1006 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,840 Look for employment law firms. There are some major National 1007 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,800 Employment law firms that send out weekly newsletters focused 1008 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,200 on employment topics. If you're in a big city, 1009 01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:42,480 especially in a bluer state, look at look at local employment 1010 01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:46,160 law firms who will also have newsletters and they will be 1011 01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,160 tailored to both the federal level, what's happening and how 1012 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,120 your state and city might be trying to counteract some of 1013 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:53,720 some of what's happening at the federal level. 1014 01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:57,800 Got it. Brian, thank you so much for 1015 01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:01,120 joining me on this episode and for coming up with this fabulous 1016 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,040 idea of the Policy pulse. I'm really excited for our first 1017 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:07,520 official series episode next month. 1018 01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:12,040 And I just am so grateful to to you and for your expertise 1019 01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:16,600 because I knew that this topic really required, you know, 1020 01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,520 really a lot of care. Like we need to understand 1021 01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:21,680 everything. We have to have clear 1022 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:24,720 understanding of what it is that we're talking about, what the 1023 01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:28,320 potential impact is. And I just really am super 1024 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,880 grateful to have you, you know, join us for this and be able to 1025 01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,280 share, you know, all of your insights. 1026 01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:37,160 So thank you again. Absolutely, thanks for having 1027 01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:38,720 me. I love coming on and having 1028 01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,240 these discussions. I enjoy it. 1029 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:45,240 I do think it is to your point though, it is sometimes 1030 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:48,520 difficult, especially with this topic, but it's just being 1031 01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:50,200 human. I think ultimately is what 1032 01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:51,840 people need to do. They just need to be human. 1033 01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:56,080 Totally Amen to that and thank you to the listeners for being 1034 01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,040 open throughout this conversation. 1035 01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,520 I know it's a lot and there's still going to be a lot to talk 1036 01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,000 about. So thank you to all of you who 1037 01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,080 made it to the bitter end here at the one hour mark. 1038 01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:08,880 Pretty much. Amazing. 1039 01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,240 Don't forget to rate review and subscribe wherever you're 1040 01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,080 catching this episode and we will see you next week. 1041 01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,320 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the show 1042 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,600 so that you are the 1st to hear when an episode drops each week 1043 01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:22,640 and maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 1044 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,440 much you loved this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 1045 01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,920 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 1046 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,920 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 1047 01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:31,280 and I'll see you next week.