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You know I've been. 
Thinking a lot about how we talk

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about mental health in the 
workplace, being a mom of twins 

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while running this podcast has 
really opened my eyes to 

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something. 
Recently I hit a wall trying to 

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juggle the demands of 
motherhood, keeping up with 

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recordings, working and 
maintaining that work life 

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balance that I'm pretty much 
always preaching about. 

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And between the responsibilities
of being a working mom and my 

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packed days, my focus honestly 
was just scattered. 

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My sleep wasn't super great and 
I felt like I was just getting 

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by. 
That experience led me to 

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discover this concept of mental 
wealth, and it's. 

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Completely. 
Shifted how I think about 

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workplace Wellness instead of 
just managing mental health 

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reactively. 
Mental wealth is about 

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proactively investing in your 
mental resilience. 

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Think of it like. 
Building a mental savings 

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account that you can draw from 
when work gets challenging. 

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I've been exploring different 
tools and habits that support 

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this mental wealth building and 
I recently discovered something 

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that's become a game changer in 
my daily routine. 

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Magic Mind reached out and sent 
me their mental performance 

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shots and sleep elixir to try, 
and what caught my attention was

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how they aligned with the five 
pillars of mental wealth. 

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Sleep, diet, exercise, stress 
management, and what they call 

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exogenous compounds. 
Basically, the supplemental 

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tools that help optimize your 
mental state. 

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So here's what's fascinating. 
They've created this 20. 4 hour 

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approach to mental performance. 
The daytime shot helps with 

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focus and clarity, and I've been
using this for my morning 

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podcast recordings and I've 
noticed that I am much sharper 

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and much more present in my 
interviews. 

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And then their Sleep Elixir 
helps you wind down and get 

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better rest, which we know is 
crucial for making good 

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decisions, especially in HR. 
And I should mention, I only 

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take vitamins. 
I'm not someone who generally 

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relies on or frankly even 
believes in other kinds of 

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supplements. 
But Magic Mind has actually made

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an impact on me, and in fact, I 
didn't agree to working with 

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them until I had the opportunity
to truly test its efficacy. 

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And I've done that. 
And plus, Magic Mind is vegan 

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friendly. 
So for someone like me who keeps

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kosher, this was really 
important. 

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And what I appreciate is that 
they're not positioning this as 

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some miracle cure. 
It's one piece of a larger 

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mental wealth strategy. 
The formula includes time 

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release caffeine to avoid that 
dreaded afternoon crash. 

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And they've added specific herbs
for stress reduction, which is 

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honestly something we could all 
use more of in HR Plus it 

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doesn't. 
Replace your regular. 

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Caffeine routine, thank 
goodness. 

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So I drink the mental 
performance shot alongside my 

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morning coffee. 
And for my listeners who also 

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want to invest in their mental 
wealth this January, Magic Mind 

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is offering an exclusive 45% off
their new bundle. 

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Pack both the focus and sleep 
shots together. 

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Just go to magicmind.com/human 
HR Jam. 

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That's magicmind.com/human 
HRJAN. 

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For 45% off your first bundle, 
make 2025. 

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The year you truly. 
Invest in your mental 

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resilience, your team and your 
career will thank you for it. 

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Welcome to the Bringing the 
Human Back to Human Resources 

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podcast. 
I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 

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spent my entire professional 
career in HR. 

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Each week. 
We'll explore the delicate 

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balance between people and 
business with the aim to 

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reconnect the two and create 
meaningful outcomes. 

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Listen in as I share my own 
experiences, challenge the 

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status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about 

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our mission to bring the human 
back to human resources. 

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Hi, everyone. 
Welcome back to the podcast. 

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Appreciate you being here for 
another episode. 

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And it is officially 2025 by the
time this episode comes out. 

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So happy New Year to everybody. 
If I didn't say it on the 

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episode before on when this one 
comes out, but I want to 

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introduce you to a very special 
guest because we are going to be

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talking about a very special and
important topic today. 

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And with me I have Kate Isiche 
who is a neuro inclusion 

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consultant. 
She helps recruiters, HR and 

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people managers to build neuro 
inclusive cultures to harness 

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the skills and talents of 
neurodivergent candidates and 

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existing employees. 
Her journey in neuro inclusion 

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began 4 years ago when her own 
children were diagnosed with 

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autism and ADHD and the advice 
given to her was to go away and 

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become an expert, which by the 
way is not helpful at all on 

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neurodivergence. 
And what she's come to learn is 

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that the various neurotypes 
represented by autism, ADHD 

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offer so many untapped skills 
and knowledge and innovative 

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ways of thinking. 
How often does this go to waste?

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And companies and organizations 
across the globe? 

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How can we begin harnessing the 
rich landscapes of different 

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ideas and problem solving that 
neurodivergent employees offer? 

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And how can we create cultures 
that are more neuro inclusive? 

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These are the problems that she 
helps companies to solve. 

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So Kate, thank you so much for 
sharing your story so vulnerably

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and transparently. 
And thank you for taking that 

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advice and running with it. 
Although it's probably not so 

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helpful to be told that it helps
us because you have actually 

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become an expert in this. 
Exactly. 

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Yeah. 
Thank you so much for that 

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wonderful introduction, Tracy. 
I'm really very honoured to be 

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on the podcast. 
It's really exciting to be here 

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and thank you for the summary 
because that's exactly what I 

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do. 
I, I've used all of that 

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knowledge and research to help 
organisations to become more 

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neuro inclusive. 
And it, it really starts with 

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understanding. 
And if people have a basic 

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awareness and understanding, 
then it's a, you know, a really 

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good start to helping existing 
neurodivergent people in the 

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companies to feel more 
comfortable and to to thrive. 

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Yeah, that's so well said. 
And, you know, something that 

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I've been reflecting on, and I 
talked about this quite a bit 

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in, you know, the last year, 
obviously we're still recording 

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in 2024, but by the time folks 
hear this, it's already the new 

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year. 
And so last year I spent quite a

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bit of time talking about what 
equity means, what inclusivity 

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means, what diversity means. 
And sometimes we really just 

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boil it down to the way people 
look. 

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But The thing is, is that 
neurodivergence you can't always

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see. 
And I, you know, as a, as an 

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employer and as someone who 
works, who works with people who

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are neurodivergent and really I,
I would say I try to foster an 

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inclusive and equitable and 
environment. 

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I think about all of the people 
who potentially are 

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neurodivergent, who have not 
shared that, who maybe haven't 

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even been diagnosed with 
neurodivergent diagnosis, right.

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And, and all of these things 
come to mind. 

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And really something that has 
stood out to me in these last 

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few weeks and preparing for a 
conversation is that I think 

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sometimes people talk about 
neurodivergent as if there isn't

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any neurodivergence in their 
company already. 

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And it's always like this thing 
to prepare for how, you know, 

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it's like, who are those people?
But it's like you have hundreds 

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of people in your organization. 
Chances are you've got someone. 

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Right, exactly. 
Yeah, You've hit the nail on the

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head. 
And it is always seen as this 

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other world, you know, almost 
like the Lord of the Rings, you 

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know, this sort of far away 
Neverland where, you know, 

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people exist who don't integrate
into society. 

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But you, of course, you're 100% 
right. 

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We're we're we're integrated 
into society. 

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I count myself as 
neurodivergent, although I'm not

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diagnosed. 
And there are so many people in 

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society who's self diagnosed 
because they can't stand, you 

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know, waiting on a 10 year list 
to receive a formal diagnosis. 

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Lots of children are being 
diagnosed, but adults are really

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struggling to get that diagnosis
because the, you know, 

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healthcare system, at least in 
the UK, doesn't prioritise them.

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So yeah, they're already there. 
I mean, it's estimated that 15 

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to 20% of the global population 
is neurodivergent. 

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And, you know, we're talking 
here not just about autism and 

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ADHD, but dyslexia, dyspraxia, 
dyscalculia. 

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There are many conditions that 
fit under that neurodivergent 

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label, but the vast majority has
to be said are autistic. 

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It's about 7%. 
Wow, wow. 

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You know, it's helpful to hear 
this and it brings me to your 

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white paper, which I do have up 
in front of me because you've 

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you've done quite a bit of 
research, as you mentioned, into

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these topics. 
And something that stood out to 

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me. 
It's actually only in the 

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beginning. 
It's on the fourth page. 

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You talk about typical 
communication, and I'm just 

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going to read a paragraph here 
because these are things that 

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for someone who isn't 
neurodivergent, they might not 

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be thinking about all of the 
things that happened day-to-day 

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that they do without even 
thinking about it. 

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We don't necessarily think about
how am I going to communicate 

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today? 
That really could affect or 

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change the way that someone 
feels in an organization. 

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And you say here, the way that 
information is typically 

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communicated, the neurotypical 
way will not land well or work 

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for many neurodivergent people, 
particularly those with autism, 

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ADHD and dyslexia. 
It is down to neurotypical 

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people, the majority who run 
organizations on the whole to 

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change the way they communicate 
for the benefit of everyone. 

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And so when we think about that,
especially considering there's 

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a, there's an opportunity in 
this episode to really provide 

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some tactical skills for people 
to in to really be able to 

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create more inclusive 
organization or environment for,

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for folks. 
What are some ways that they can

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communicate or think about 
communicate or, you know, add it

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to their repertoire, so to 
speak, so that they are, even if

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there isn't someone 
neurodivergent, maybe there will

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be in the future. 
So that they, when they 

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communicate, they're taking 
those practices in stride and 

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and being more inclusive in the 
way that they are communicating.

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Yeah, it's a really good 
question and I think the first 

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point that needs to be 
considered is plain and simple 

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language. 
In the UK we have a Plain 

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English campaign which has been 
running for many years now, over

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20 years, and it's designed to 
help communicators to outlay 

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information in a way that 
everyone can understand. 

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I think the typical language is 
at the level of a 14 or 15 year 

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old can understand it and absorb
it and interpret it. 

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So no flow, no flowery language,
nothing too complex. 

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Keep it simple as the first 
thing and then also look at how 

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you lay out your information. 
So if you're using text, there 

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are some really simple tricks 
that you can use. 

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Not complicated at all. 
Avoid coloured backgrounds, use 

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00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,720
bullet points, keep your 
sentences short. 

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Make sure the layout is visually
easy to read, so don't cram 

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00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,040
loads of text into one small 
area. 

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00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,800
Space everything out you know. 
Use 1.5 or double spacing. 

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That's what I do routinely in my
emails and it took me a while to

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00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,800
realise what I was doing. 
And it's actually a way that I 

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00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,760
understand information. 
So I started to interpret that 

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00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,920
sort of knowledge as everyone 
else may also benefit from 

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having that, you know, 
information laid out, but it's 

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00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,640
not just text. 
So the other thing is to 

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remember different formats, you 
know, different approaches to 

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00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,240
communication. 
So much reliance on e-mail, you 

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00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,360
know, written communication. 
So we have our, you know, access

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00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,440
to so many different ways of 
communicating audio, as we're 

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00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,560
doing now we're doing visual and
audio with video and, and on 

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00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:21,760
this podcast. 
And you can also use, you know, 

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00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,320
different formats in terms of 
look and feel, you know, design.

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00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,640
There are so many different ways
that you can communicate. 

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00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,960
It doesn't have to be written. 
But then again, it's interesting

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00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,480
to note that, for example, ADHD 
is who will benefit from written

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00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,360
communication. 
They like everything to be 

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00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,880
written down. 
And I can I can allude to that 

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00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,920
too. 
It really resonates with me, 

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having everything written down. 
But dyslexic people do not like 

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written communication because 
they have a problem, a challenge

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00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:56,680
typically with reading. 
Not all, but most do find 

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00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:59,480
reading challenging. 
So for them, spoken 

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communication is better. 
Audio. 

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00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,960
Yeah, video, audio notes, voice 
notes, that kind of thing works 

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00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,400
really well for them. 
I'll tell you a story. 

230
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,160
The other day, it was actually 
this week, someone messaged me 

231
00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,600
and said, oh, you, you, you must
have forgotten about our 

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00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,920
meeting. 
And I, I was frantic. 

233
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,760
I went to my calendar because I 
hate letting people down. 

234
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,640
And that's an ADHD thing too, 
where people pleases. 

235
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,440
So I went into my calendars, you
know, desperately checking for 

236
00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,400
this invite. 
I couldn't find anything. 

237
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,680
There was nothing in my 
calendar. 

238
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,320
So I went back to the person and
I said I don't have anything in 

239
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,120
my calendar when we were 
supposed to meet. 

240
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,200
And he said, I sent you an 
e-mail, I sent you an invite. 

241
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,080
So I we, this went back and 
forth for about 10 minutes and 

242
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,840
then finally he said, look here 
it is. 

243
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,680
So he forwarded it to me and I 
looked at it and it was an 

244
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,920
e-mail. 
It was literally an e-mail with 

245
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,480
the date and the time, and I 
said there's no way on God's 

246
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,320
earth, but I would be able to 
look at that e-mail whenever it 

247
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,360
was sent 4 weeks ago and then 
translate that into I've got to 

248
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,960
meet with you today at 1:00 or 
whatever it was. 

249
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,600
I need an invite. 
And I just took it as read that 

250
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,120
everyone needs that. 
And I know neurotypical people 

251
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,600
also benefit from it, but he was
really stunned as to why I would

252
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,920
need that. 
So yeah, it's considerations as 

253
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,880
simple as that that make the 
biggest difference. 

254
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,160
That's really interesting and I 
appreciate you sharing that 

255
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,920
because also I can say I mean, 
if if someone didn't send me an 

256
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:38,520
invite, it just simply will not 
happen like it, it just won't. 

257
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,640
You can't, you can't, you won't 
see me, can't count on me. 

258
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,520
Sorry, I calendar, eyes, 
everything, even taking the 

259
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:47,840
vitamins. 
Right. 

260
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,080
Like I have to otherwise, you 
know, it's in one ear and right 

261
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,840
out the other and. 
The thing is for ADHD is that's 

262
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,760
crucial. 
That is completely crucial. 

263
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,760
It's the, it's the be all and 
end all really. 

264
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,760
And if you're working with 
someone who has ADHD and you're 

265
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,080
expecting them to come to a 
meeting when you haven't sent an

266
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,760
invite, then that's just plain 
unfair because it's not never 

267
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,280
going to work. 
Yeah, yeah. 

268
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,160
No, I, I think it makes total 
sense. 

269
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,160
And you know, I think also when 
we think about all the people 

270
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,000
have going on, I mean, we just 
have to assume that we can, we 

271
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,200
can do so many things to just 
make things a little bit easier 

272
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,360
for people, reduce the friction 
where possible. 

273
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,520
And, you know, I was thinking 
about some of what you've shared

274
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:39,080
around the communications and 
how we really support people in 

275
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,560
our workplaces. 
And I've shared on the podcast 

276
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,960
before, and I think I shared 
with you also that my older 

277
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,280
sister has Down syndrome and 
she's not super high 

278
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,480
functioning. 
And of course, that is a little 

279
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,320
significantly different than 
someone who has ADHD, autism or 

280
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:59,880
other neurodivergent diagnosis. 
But certainly growing up with a 

281
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:04,000
sibling who had special has 
special needs and, and required 

282
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,160
many different resources and 
support and a specific school 

283
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,800
that would enable her learning. 
You know, I really do think 

284
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,040
about how many people might, 
when they hear the term 

285
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,440
neurodivergence or autism 
especially, they might think 

286
00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:25,840
immediately to people who are 
very obviously when in 

287
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,840
appearance, you know, diagnosed 
with one or more of these 

288
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,240
diagnosis. 
And it's not always the case. 

289
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,040
I mean, we even seem like my 
sister is not someone who would 

290
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,880
be able to work in a coffee 
shop, right? 

291
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:45,000
But there are many people with 
other developmental disabilities

292
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,520
or capabilities, as I'd like to 
say, who are able to do those 

293
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:54,000
things and may not appear to 
someone as having, you know, a 

294
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,440
considerable diagnosis. 
The same goes with autism. 

295
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,160
Many people as they hear this 
episode, if they've not 

296
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,440
encountered someone with autism 
or another type of diagnosis, 

297
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,720
they might only think about 
someone who stems or who has, 

298
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,840
you know, a, a very specific, 
like maybe even a non verbal 

299
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,680
attribute. 
And I think it is important and 

300
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000
you mention it in your white 
paper that there is masking and 

301
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,880
there are people who have not 
been diagnosed with these things

302
00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,840
who may appear to be 
neurotypical potentially. 

303
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,120
And when we think about that in 
the workplace, I think it does 

304
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:35,880
allow us the this reminder that 
we can't judge people by the way

305
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,400
that they appear the by what we 
think that they are the same. 

306
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,120
It really goes kind of for 
everything. 

307
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,280
But you know, just because 
someone appears to be one way or

308
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,080
is non verbal, for example, 
doesn't mean that they have a 

309
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,240
they don't have a whole host of 
of thoughts and cognitive 

310
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,560
processes that are going on, 
right? 

311
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,560
I mean, we, we know this to be 
true And and I think we could 

312
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,040
talk about that alone for a very
long time. 

313
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,640
But I wanted to ask you 
specifically to, you know, this 

314
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,359
reality that there are people 
who are undiagnosed who mask and

315
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:15,000
also people who maybe are by 
physical attribute, you know, 

316
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,760
demonstratively different from 
someone who's neurotypical. 

317
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:24,400
How do we best kind of navigate 
those relationships? 

318
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,200
I can imagine that for someone 
who is not typically surrounded 

319
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,120
by someone who is neurodivergent
or has a, you know, is, is not 

320
00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,760
neurotypical, that it might be a
little uncomfortable for them to

321
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,480
know how to interact or how to 
appropriately respect someone 

322
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,680
and understand what they need or
what questions to ask. 

323
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,280
So where does someone start with
that? 

324
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,640
Yeah, it's a really good 
question. 

325
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,760
And as you've rightly said, it's
a spectrum. 

326
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,520
So same with autism and ADHD, 
they're both spectrums. 

327
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:58,840
So you get different differing 
levels of, you know, of, you 

328
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,840
know, of how they are affected 
of the condition that they have.

329
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,760
So for example, you do have 
masking, particularly in women 

330
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,880
and girls, they mask a lot. 
So my daughter was diagnosed 

331
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,760
very relatively late, 14 in 
comparison to other children, 

332
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,800
and my son was diagnosed at 10. 
So they're both autistic, but 

333
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,600
they are like night and day. 
There's no commonality between 

334
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,040
them at all. 
And you were saying earlier 

335
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,360
that, you know, people may not 
have come across a 

336
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,040
neurodivergent person or 
autistic person. 

337
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,000
Chances are they have, they just
didn't realise it. 

338
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,680
And if you were speaking to me 
without knowing that I had ADHD,

339
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,440
even though I'm not formally 
diagnosed, I'm, I'm 99.9% 

340
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,920
certain I do, there's no way 
you'd be able to diagnose me 

341
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,960
from the way that I present 
because I present in a 

342
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,200
neurotypical way. 
And even in the neurotypical 

343
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,080
population, there's 
neurodivergence. 

344
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,160
So, you know, but if you have a 
group of neurotypical people who

345
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,040
don't have autism and ADHD, 
there will still be different 

346
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,160
ways of learning, different ways
of thinking, different ways of 

347
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,600
experience in the world. 
That's neurodiversity, and I 

348
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,080
think it's good to sort of 
categorise the two because they 

349
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,640
often get conflated and 
neurodivergence relates to those

350
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,080
specific conditions. 
So yes, you're right. 

351
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:21,880
There are autistic people who 
can't speak. 

352
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,160
There are autistic people who 
can't walk, there are autistic 

353
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,600
people who have learning 
disabilities, but the vast 

354
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,880
majority don't have any 
cognitive challenges at all. 

355
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,920
They are most of them. 
I'd say at least the majority of

356
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,040
them are able to. 
I've learned in a similar way to

357
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,880
a neurotypical person and 
actually are a bit more 

358
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,160
academically competent than most
neurotypical people. 

359
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000
So they're very good at reading,
very good with mathematics. 

360
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:53,840
Not everyone. 
I'm not going to tire everyone 

361
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,880
with the same brush, but I've 
met many autistic people who've 

362
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,160
been to university, have 
degrees, master's degrees and 

363
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,960
also pH DS. 
And the reason is because they 

364
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,480
have this focus on one 
particular thing that they are 

365
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,200
interested in and they can go 
deep, deep, deep dive into it. 

366
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,840
In autism, it's called 
monotropism. 

367
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,040
In ADHD it's called hyperfocus. 
And what that does is enable you

368
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,320
to go very deep into a topic. 
Over a considerable length of 

369
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,360
time. 
And that lends itself to 

370
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,680
academia completely. 
You know, if you're doing a, a 

371
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,800
research degree or a PhD, that's
if you're interested in that, 

372
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,760
then you can go as deep as you 
like over, you know, 3 or 4 

373
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,920
years. 
So yes, it is a spectrum. 

374
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,920
There are people who can't work 
for, you know, for many reasons,

375
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,160
because they're not able to 
access the working environments,

376
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,920
they cannot socially interact. 
It's very difficult for them to 

377
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,440
follow instructions. 
So yeah, the, the, what I always

378
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,360
say, my starting point for 
organisations is people 

379
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:57,960
managers. 
I always call them the vanguards

380
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:02,760
of the employee experience. 
If you're a person manager, you 

381
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,200
know, you have you're a 
supervisor in some capacity and 

382
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,040
you have a team, you have such 
an opportunity there, you know, 

383
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:15,600
to understand each and everyone 
that you manage deeply on a one 

384
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,360
to one, you know, personal 
basis. 

385
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,520
So you can say this person likes
to work in this way. 

386
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,320
I understand that they don't 
necessarily align with the way 

387
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,240
that I work, that we can 
mitigate those challenges just 

388
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,880
by understanding each other and,
you know, intervening where 

389
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,640
necessary. 
So the real, the starting point 

390
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:37,240
is not HR, you know, it's not 
policies and processes, It's 

391
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,560
the, the, the people manager. 
We put so much onus on them, but

392
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,480
that's because they are, you 
know, the, the, the first and 

393
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,480
last touch point. 
Yeah, it's so true. 

394
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,640
And as you were sharing that, I 
was thinking about all of these 

395
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,720
opportunities when we do employ 
those who are neurodivergent 

396
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,520
that we have a lot of 
opportunity talent wise because 

397
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,120
of some of these unique skills 
that do come along with these 

398
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,960
multiple diagnosis. 
Exactly. 

399
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,840
Yeah, you've got, I mean, there 
are so many famous people who 

400
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,160
have now revealed, you know, 
that they are neurodivergent. 

401
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,640
And most of them are in the 
creative industries. 

402
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,720
There aren't many in tech too. 
So I think Bill Gates is one of 

403
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,760
them. 
I think he's said he's autistic.

404
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,080
Will I am say ADHD? 
Elon Musk, I think he's 

405
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,320
autistic. 
Greta Thunberg, she's autistic. 

406
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,640
There, there. 
There's many, many people who 

407
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,240
are neurodivergent and they are 
super creative, super 

408
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,480
innovative, and super 
productive. 

409
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,120
So yes, you're right. 
Can you imagine that untapped 

410
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:42,960
resource? 
You've got people in your 

411
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,080
organization who are 
neurodivergent, but they could 

412
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,800
be in the wrong job or they 
might have a manager who doesn't

413
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,440
understand their way of working,
and that's when the problem 

414
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,320
arises. 
I know for a fact that many 

415
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:59,360
ADHDS have lost their jobs or 
being put on Pips, which are 

416
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:04,120
performance improvement plans as
we call them, because they have 

417
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,840
been seen to be incompetent or 
perceived as disorganised. 

418
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,240
But actually it's, it's just the
way that they work differently. 

419
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,800
And if you understand that, then
you can mitigate those 

420
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,760
challenges by putting in place 
some interventions that benefit 

421
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,640
them and will help your, your 
team to, you know, complete 

422
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,840
projects, you know, on a timely 
basis. 

423
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,760
So it's all about awareness, 
it's all about understanding, 

424
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,040
and it's all about 
interventions, but the right 

425
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,200
interventions. 
Right. 

426
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,360
I really appreciate what you've 
shared there and you know, 

427
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:42,440
especially on the basis of Pips 
and other performance elements. 

428
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,000
And when we think about the 
responsibility that people 

429
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,960
managers have and for all of us 
maybe who are in HR or trying to

430
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,720
get into HR, there's an 
opportunity there to really 

431
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,680
think about what the expectation
is for people. 

432
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,520
And that it's OK to have the 
same level of performance 

433
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,920
expectation from an output 
standpoint, but that the journey

434
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,520
just might look a little bit 
different. 

435
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,440
I mean, I, when I think about 
like even my role today, I, I 

436
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,720
work in tech and a big part of 
what we do, I mean, we're remote

437
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,120
1st. 
And I think that definitely 

438
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,720
sends a message as far as like 
what trust looks like in our 

439
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,240
organization, because you have 
to have a lot of trust and, you 

440
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,120
know, rely on your team to 
accomplish what's necessary to 

441
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:26,960
get the job done and move the 
needle forward, right? 

442
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,000
But I share that because when 
you have an organization that 

443
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,080
inherently says, I know that you
can work whatever you need to, 

444
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:37,640
you know, you're going to get 
the job done. 

445
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,440
You can work from home, you 
could work from France, you can 

446
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,360
work from Argentina, as long as 
the job gets done, right. 

447
00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,920
That's kind of the same thing 
that needs to be applied to 

448
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,160
really all employees, but 
especially those who are 

449
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,120
neurodivergent. 
It's like, OK, well, you know, 

450
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,000
as long thing is you kind of get
to that end result, whatever 

451
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,760
that performance result needs to
be. 

452
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,680
Maybe it's delivering on a 
project or, you know, some other

453
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,760
deadline. 
The the road to get there 

454
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,760
doesn't have to be the same for 
everyone. 

455
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,640
And as a matter of fact, in most
cases, when people have the 

456
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,680
flexibility to be creative about
how they deliver on a result, 

457
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:15,640
you're going to get the best out
of them anyway. 

458
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,400
And I, I do think, right, I, I 
think that people leaders have a

459
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,840
real opportunity in just 
changing the way that they 

460
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,280
manage people. 
Yeah. 

461
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,760
And it's, you know, it's this 
holding on tight to the past, 

462
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,720
you know, the sort of historical
way of doing things. 

463
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,640
There's so many people who 
refuse to let that go. 

464
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,520
And it's not necessarily related
to age, although having said 

465
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,600
that, you know, younger people 
do seem to be more comfortable 

466
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600
with the idea of remote working.
But, you know, in the last two 

467
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,560
years, we've seen a real 
backlash against flexible 

468
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,360
working, remote working, you 
know, working from home, as they

469
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:51,360
call it. 
But it doesn't necessarily need 

470
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,360
to be working from home. 
It could be working from a 

471
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:56,560
different environment to a 
different office or a different 

472
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,640
location that also belongs to 
the company, but it's more 

473
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,720
comfortable for the individual. 
So for example, if you're 

474
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,640
autistic, having a fixed working
space is really beneficial. 

475
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,880
So you come to the same place, 
you know what noise level you're

476
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,960
going to get, you understand the
light that you're going to see, 

477
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,640
you understand, you know, 
perhaps the smells that are 

478
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,280
going to pass your way. 
And that's those things are 

479
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,320
really important for autistic 
people. 

480
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,920
Whereas if you have a hot 
desking culture where people 

481
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,680
move around from one day to the 
next, that's an absolute 

482
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,000
nightmare for an autistic 
person. 

483
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,640
And you really have to 
understand the impact of that. 

484
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,640
So many people, managers might 
say, well, what's the issue? 

485
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,960
You know, they're just sitting 
over there instead of sitting 

486
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,440
over there. 
But for them it's, it's much 

487
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,760
more than that. 
I can recommend a book to your 

488
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,760
listeners called The Reason I 
Jump. 

489
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,760
It's by a Japanese autistic boy.
He wrote it when he was 13. 

490
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,120
I think he's a grown man now. 
But it's such a, well, it's a 

491
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,840
bit childish because he was only
13 when he wrote it, but it 

492
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,640
really gives some serious 
insights into what it's like to 

493
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,920
be autistic and the experience 
of being in pain. 

494
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,560
So, for example, if you do move 
an autistic child, an autistic 

495
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,160
person, sorry, autistic adult, 
from one desk where they're used

496
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,560
to, to another, that actually 
can result in physical pain. 

497
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,040
And that's something that's very
difficult for neurotypical 

498
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,040
people to understand. 
It took me a while to get my 

499
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,520
head around it. 
But once you understand that 

500
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,280
equals pain, then you know what 
the benefit is of leaving them 

501
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,880
where they are. 
Wow, I had no idea. 

502
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,560
That's really important 
information. 

503
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,760
And it does make me think about 
what might be a natural next 

504
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,520
question from someone, which 
would be, well, how do I know if

505
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,640
someone is neurodivergent if 
they don't share? 

506
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,360
And of course, on the HR side of
things, it's like people don't 

507
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:51,360
have to share what they're 
experiencing in order for us to 

508
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:54,240
understand or create a more 
inclusive environment. 

509
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,280
Certainly people can share if 
they'd like to, but we know that

510
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,480
there are discriminatory 
practices, unfortunately still 

511
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,120
in businesses and organizations 
today. 

512
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:07,040
So I first of all, I do not 
encourage anyone to ask, are you

513
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,240
autistic? 
Are you ADH? 

514
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,800
Do you have ADHD? 
That is not what we ask people. 

515
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,240
And in many cases, especially in
the United States, you cannot 

516
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,800
ask that question. 
But what, what would you say to 

517
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,040
someone who says, well, how do I
know? 

518
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,520
How do I know if someone needs 
that? 

519
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,640
Is it that we need to just do 
these things as part of our 

520
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,400
everyday or is it something 
else? 

521
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,200
Yeah, it's a really good 
question and I was asked a 

522
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,200
similar one yesterday. 
So no, you don't have to 

523
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,080
disclose. 
And the same with the UK, you 

524
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,000
know, you, you just simply don't
have to say that you're 

525
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,560
neurodivergent and they can't 
force you. 

526
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,080
Businesses can't force force you
to say you are, but the good 

527
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400
thing about disclosing is that 
there are interventions that you

528
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,960
can get as a result of the 
disclosure. 

529
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,320
And that's in law. 
If you present a certificate 

530
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,520
from a doctor or a psychiatrist 
saying that you are diagnosed 

531
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,960
with autism or ADHD, that 
employer is on a bound, legally 

532
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,440
bound to provide you with those 
accommodations. 

533
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,760
So that's a good thing. 
But yes, of course, many people 

534
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,440
still don't disclose, but that's
the, the wonderful thing about 

535
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,960
neuro inclusion. 
This is why I love my, my job so

536
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,720
much. 
You know, my course, my program,

537
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,560
everything I teach is around 
creating this neuro inclusive 

538
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,240
approach to work and neuro 
inclusive culture. 

539
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,840
If you don't have it, then it's 
going to be a challenge for you.

540
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,280
You have to have an environment 
which is conducive to being 

541
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:35,880
neuro inclusive in the 
beginning. 

542
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,240
So for example, if you're, I 
don't know, you know, a company 

543
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,640
which is very different 
culturally to Google, then you 

544
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,200
know, you can't be Google. 
But you know within your 

545
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,560
environment you can create a 
culture if the leadership is 

546
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,400
willing to, which is still neuro
inclusive. 

547
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,040
You don't have to be a Nike or 
a, or a Google or a Facebook or 

548
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,080
a Meta or anything like that. 
You can still create a neuro 

549
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,880
inclusive culture which is 
aligned to your business and to 

550
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,880
your industry. 
So it's all about tailoring that

551
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,280
approach, but understanding that
your inclusion is the starting 

552
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,600
point. 
If your culture is not, you 

553
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,760
know, ready for creating an 
environment in which your 

554
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,000
neurodivergent employees and 
future talent can thrive, then 

555
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:27,040
it's it's never going to work. 
That's amazing to to reflect on 

556
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,200
and, and it's, I love that we 
are kind of coming back to the, 

557
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,440
the very beginning of this 
podcast that it's, you know, and

558
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,880
it's really about what you do 
and it's about driving neuro 

559
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,240
inclusion. 
And when we think about 

560
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,560
inclusivity, I mean, that is a 
huge part of it. 

561
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,600
And I really love that, you 
know, when we can think about 

562
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:50,840
like ways that we create neuro 
inclusion, that it's, it's not 

563
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,480
always about creating something 
different, but it's rather about

564
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,200
adjusting the way in which we 
work today or the things that 

565
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,760
already exist in order to be 
more inclusive for those who 

566
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,000
require it and really need those
interventions, as you've put it,

567
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,760
in order to perform their best 
and have the, the best potential

568
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,560
for their own happiness and 
engagement and success. 

569
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,680
Yeah, exactly. 
It's all about creating an 

570
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,720
environment that works for not 
everyone. 

571
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,040
I'm not going to go down that 
road because you get people 

572
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,160
saying, well, we can all benefit
from it. 

573
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,840
But it it, when you go down that
road, then you lose the 

574
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,680
understanding of what it is to 
be neurodivergent. 

575
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,400
It's not everyone that can 
benefit. 

576
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,320
It's neurodivergent, you know, 
people that can benefit. 

577
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,200
So for example, I don't mind 
hotdesking. 

578
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,440
I, I keep using that example 
because many people would 

579
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,440
consider that to be not a 
problem or an innocuous, you 

580
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,760
know, request, move your desk 
or, you know, change your meet 

581
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,920
your usual meeting room, do 
things, you know, a bit 

582
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,720
differently today. 
You know, for, for most people, 

583
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,000
I guess they'd be OK with that. 
But for an autistic person, 

584
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,000
you're asking a lot of them, you
know, to change that position, 

585
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,400
even if it is just for one day. 
It's, you're asking them for a 

586
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,120
lot. 
So if you understand that, then 

587
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,480
you know, you know how to 
intervene in the right way. 

588
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,240
It's all about understanding. 
And This is why I wrote the 

589
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,120
white paper, you know, to give 
people that baseline awareness 

590
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,360
of of what it's like to be 
neurodivergent in the workplace.

591
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,000
Right. 
Well, thank you so much for all 

592
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,680
of your insights and the 
research that you've done and 

593
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,520
all of the expertise that you've
brought to this podcast and to 

594
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:37,240
the listeners. 
I really appreciate it. 

595
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,440
And I'll link that book that 
you've suggested as well as 

596
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,040
your, your, your information. 
But just to give you the 

597
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,480
opportunity, where can listeners
connect with you if they want to

598
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,080
learn more or they want they 
need a consultant, maybe even 

599
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,400
for their own organizations or 
want to connect? 

600
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,240
Yeah, Thank you so much, Tracy. 
You can visit my website, which 

601
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,240
is Where to look comms.co.uk. 
I'm on LinkedIn. 

602
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,920
You can find me at K to CJ, DM 
me there. 

603
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,600
Or you can reach me via my 
e-mail, which is K to CJ at 

604
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,280
where to Look comms.co.uk. 
So any of those channels are all

605
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,480
right. 
You'll reach me no problem. 

606
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:17,880
Amazing. 
Well, thank you so much for 

607
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,760
joining the podcast. 
Really appreciate it. 

608
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,600
Like I said and I it was amazing
to hear all of these insights. 

609
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,920
Thank you so much. 
Hey, just before you go, don't 

610
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,560
forget to subscribe to the show 
so. 

611
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,720
That you are the 1st to hear. 
When an episode drops each week 

612
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,800
and maybe leave a five star 
review and a comment about how 

613
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,200
much you loved this episode. 
Plus if you have. 

614
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,240
Someone in mind who would really
enjoy this episode? 

615
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,520
Make sure you share it with. 
Them thank you so much for 

616
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,440
tuning in and I'll see you next 
week.