You know I've been. Thinking a lot about how we talk
about mental health in the workplace, being a mom of twins
while running this podcast has really opened my eyes to
something. Recently I hit a wall trying to
juggle the demands of motherhood, keeping up with
recordings, working and maintaining that work life
balance that I'm pretty much always preaching about.
And between the responsibilities of being a working mom and my
packed days, my focus honestly was just scattered.
My sleep wasn't super great and I felt like I was just getting
by. That experience led me to
discover this concept of mental wealth, and it's.
Completely. Shifted how I think about
workplace Wellness instead of just managing mental health
reactively. Mental wealth is about
proactively investing in your mental resilience.
Think of it like. Building a mental savings
account that you can draw from when work gets challenging.
I've been exploring different tools and habits that support
this mental wealth building and I recently discovered something
that's become a game changer in my daily routine.
Magic Mind reached out and sent me their mental performance
shots and sleep elixir to try, and what caught my attention was
how they aligned with the five pillars of mental wealth.
Sleep, diet, exercise, stress management, and what they call
exogenous compounds. Basically, the supplemental
tools that help optimize your mental state.
So here's what's fascinating. They've created this 20. 4 hour
approach to mental performance. The daytime shot helps with
focus and clarity, and I've been using this for my morning
podcast recordings and I've noticed that I am much sharper
and much more present in my interviews.
And then their Sleep Elixir helps you wind down and get
better rest, which we know is crucial for making good
decisions, especially in HR. And I should mention, I only
take vitamins. I'm not someone who generally
relies on or frankly even believes in other kinds of
supplements. But Magic Mind has actually made
an impact on me, and in fact, I didn't agree to working with
them until I had the opportunity to truly test its efficacy.
And I've done that. And plus, Magic Mind is vegan
friendly. So for someone like me who keeps
kosher, this was really important.
And what I appreciate is that they're not positioning this as
some miracle cure. It's one piece of a larger
mental wealth strategy. The formula includes time
release caffeine to avoid that dreaded afternoon crash.
And they've added specific herbs for stress reduction, which is
honestly something we could all use more of in HR Plus it
doesn't. Replace your regular.
Caffeine routine, thank goodness.
So I drink the mental performance shot alongside my
morning coffee. And for my listeners who also
want to invest in their mental wealth this January, Magic Mind
is offering an exclusive 45% off their new bundle.
Pack both the focus and sleep shots together.
Just go to magicmind.com/human HR Jam.
That's magicmind.com/human HRJAN.
For 45% off your first bundle, make 2025.
The year you truly. Invest in your mental
resilience, your team and your career will thank you for it.
Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've
spent my entire professional career in HR.
Each week. We'll explore the delicate
balance between people and business with the aim to
reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes.
Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the
status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about
our mission to bring the human back to human resources.
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast.
Appreciate you being here for another episode.
And it is officially 2025 by the time this episode comes out.
So happy New Year to everybody. If I didn't say it on the
episode before on when this one comes out, but I want to
introduce you to a very special guest because we are going to be
talking about a very special and important topic today.
And with me I have Kate Isiche who is a neuro inclusion
consultant. She helps recruiters, HR and
people managers to build neuro inclusive cultures to harness
the skills and talents of neurodivergent candidates and
existing employees. Her journey in neuro inclusion
began 4 years ago when her own children were diagnosed with
autism and ADHD and the advice given to her was to go away and
become an expert, which by the way is not helpful at all on
neurodivergence. And what she's come to learn is
that the various neurotypes represented by autism, ADHD
offer so many untapped skills and knowledge and innovative
ways of thinking. How often does this go to waste?
And companies and organizations across the globe?
How can we begin harnessing the rich landscapes of different
ideas and problem solving that neurodivergent employees offer?
And how can we create cultures that are more neuro inclusive?
These are the problems that she helps companies to solve.
So Kate, thank you so much for sharing your story so vulnerably
and transparently. And thank you for taking that
advice and running with it. Although it's probably not so
helpful to be told that it helps us because you have actually
become an expert in this. Exactly.
Yeah. Thank you so much for that
wonderful introduction, Tracy. I'm really very honoured to be
on the podcast. It's really exciting to be here
and thank you for the summary because that's exactly what I
do. I, I've used all of that
knowledge and research to help organisations to become more
neuro inclusive. And it, it really starts with
understanding. And if people have a basic
awareness and understanding, then it's a, you know, a really
good start to helping existing neurodivergent people in the
companies to feel more comfortable and to to thrive.
Yeah, that's so well said. And, you know, something that
I've been reflecting on, and I talked about this quite a bit
in, you know, the last year, obviously we're still recording
in 2024, but by the time folks hear this, it's already the new
year. And so last year I spent quite a
bit of time talking about what equity means, what inclusivity
means, what diversity means. And sometimes we really just
boil it down to the way people look.
But The thing is, is that neurodivergence you can't always
see. And I, you know, as a, as an
employer and as someone who works, who works with people who
are neurodivergent and really I, I would say I try to foster an
inclusive and equitable and environment.
I think about all of the people who potentially are
neurodivergent, who have not shared that, who maybe haven't
even been diagnosed with neurodivergent diagnosis, right.
And, and all of these things come to mind.
And really something that has stood out to me in these last
few weeks and preparing for a conversation is that I think
sometimes people talk about neurodivergent as if there isn't
any neurodivergence in their company already.
And it's always like this thing to prepare for how, you know,
it's like, who are those people? But it's like you have hundreds
of people in your organization. Chances are you've got someone.
Right, exactly. Yeah, You've hit the nail on the
head. And it is always seen as this
other world, you know, almost like the Lord of the Rings, you
know, this sort of far away Neverland where, you know,
people exist who don't integrate into society.
But you, of course, you're 100% right.
We're we're we're integrated into society.
I count myself as neurodivergent, although I'm not
diagnosed. And there are so many people in
society who's self diagnosed because they can't stand, you
know, waiting on a 10 year list to receive a formal diagnosis.
Lots of children are being diagnosed, but adults are really
struggling to get that diagnosis because the, you know,
healthcare system, at least in the UK, doesn't prioritise them.
So yeah, they're already there. I mean, it's estimated that 15
to 20% of the global population is neurodivergent.
And, you know, we're talking here not just about autism and
ADHD, but dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia.
There are many conditions that fit under that neurodivergent
label, but the vast majority has to be said are autistic.
It's about 7%. Wow, wow.
You know, it's helpful to hear this and it brings me to your
white paper, which I do have up in front of me because you've
you've done quite a bit of research, as you mentioned, into
these topics. And something that stood out to
me. It's actually only in the
beginning. It's on the fourth page.
You talk about typical communication, and I'm just
going to read a paragraph here because these are things that
for someone who isn't neurodivergent, they might not
be thinking about all of the things that happened day-to-day
that they do without even thinking about it.
We don't necessarily think about how am I going to communicate
today? That really could affect or
change the way that someone feels in an organization.
And you say here, the way that information is typically
communicated, the neurotypical way will not land well or work
for many neurodivergent people, particularly those with autism,
ADHD and dyslexia. It is down to neurotypical
people, the majority who run organizations on the whole to
change the way they communicate for the benefit of everyone.
And so when we think about that, especially considering there's
a, there's an opportunity in this episode to really provide
some tactical skills for people to in to really be able to
create more inclusive organization or environment for,
for folks. What are some ways that they can
communicate or think about communicate or, you know, add it
to their repertoire, so to speak, so that they are, even if
there isn't someone neurodivergent, maybe there will
be in the future. So that they, when they
communicate, they're taking those practices in stride and
and being more inclusive in the way that they are communicating.
Yeah, it's a really good question and I think the first
point that needs to be considered is plain and simple
language. In the UK we have a Plain
English campaign which has been running for many years now, over
20 years, and it's designed to help communicators to outlay
information in a way that everyone can understand.
I think the typical language is at the level of a 14 or 15 year
old can understand it and absorb it and interpret it.
So no flow, no flowery language, nothing too complex.
Keep it simple as the first thing and then also look at how
you lay out your information. So if you're using text, there
are some really simple tricks that you can use.
Not complicated at all. Avoid coloured backgrounds, use
bullet points, keep your sentences short.
Make sure the layout is visually easy to read, so don't cram
loads of text into one small area.
Space everything out you know. Use 1.5 or double spacing.
That's what I do routinely in my emails and it took me a while to
realise what I was doing. And it's actually a way that I
understand information. So I started to interpret that
sort of knowledge as everyone else may also benefit from
having that, you know, information laid out, but it's
not just text. So the other thing is to
remember different formats, you know, different approaches to
communication. So much reliance on e-mail, you
know, written communication. So we have our, you know, access
to so many different ways of communicating audio, as we're
doing now we're doing visual and audio with video and, and on
this podcast. And you can also use, you know,
different formats in terms of look and feel, you know, design.
There are so many different ways that you can communicate.
It doesn't have to be written. But then again, it's interesting
to note that, for example, ADHD is who will benefit from written
communication. They like everything to be
written down. And I can I can allude to that
too. It really resonates with me,
having everything written down. But dyslexic people do not like
written communication because they have a problem, a challenge
typically with reading. Not all, but most do find
reading challenging. So for them, spoken
communication is better. Audio.
Yeah, video, audio notes, voice notes, that kind of thing works
really well for them. I'll tell you a story.
The other day, it was actually this week, someone messaged me
and said, oh, you, you, you must have forgotten about our
meeting. And I, I was frantic.
I went to my calendar because I hate letting people down.
And that's an ADHD thing too, where people pleases.
So I went into my calendars, you know, desperately checking for
this invite. I couldn't find anything.
There was nothing in my calendar.
So I went back to the person and I said I don't have anything in
my calendar when we were supposed to meet.
And he said, I sent you an e-mail, I sent you an invite.
So I we, this went back and forth for about 10 minutes and
then finally he said, look here it is.
So he forwarded it to me and I looked at it and it was an
e-mail. It was literally an e-mail with
the date and the time, and I said there's no way on God's
earth, but I would be able to look at that e-mail whenever it
was sent 4 weeks ago and then translate that into I've got to
meet with you today at 1:00 or whatever it was.
I need an invite. And I just took it as read that
everyone needs that. And I know neurotypical people
also benefit from it, but he was really stunned as to why I would
need that. So yeah, it's considerations as
simple as that that make the biggest difference.
That's really interesting and I appreciate you sharing that
because also I can say I mean, if if someone didn't send me an
invite, it just simply will not happen like it, it just won't.
You can't, you can't, you won't see me, can't count on me.
Sorry, I calendar, eyes, everything, even taking the
vitamins. Right.
Like I have to otherwise, you know, it's in one ear and right
out the other and. The thing is for ADHD is that's
crucial. That is completely crucial.
It's the, it's the be all and end all really.
And if you're working with someone who has ADHD and you're
expecting them to come to a meeting when you haven't sent an
invite, then that's just plain unfair because it's not never
going to work. Yeah, yeah.
No, I, I think it makes total sense.
And you know, I think also when we think about all the people
have going on, I mean, we just have to assume that we can, we
can do so many things to just make things a little bit easier
for people, reduce the friction where possible.
And, you know, I was thinking about some of what you've shared
around the communications and how we really support people in
our workplaces. And I've shared on the podcast
before, and I think I shared with you also that my older
sister has Down syndrome and she's not super high
functioning. And of course, that is a little
significantly different than someone who has ADHD, autism or
other neurodivergent diagnosis. But certainly growing up with a
sibling who had special has special needs and, and required
many different resources and support and a specific school
that would enable her learning. You know, I really do think
about how many people might, when they hear the term
neurodivergence or autism especially, they might think
immediately to people who are very obviously when in
appearance, you know, diagnosed with one or more of these
diagnosis. And it's not always the case.
I mean, we even seem like my sister is not someone who would
be able to work in a coffee shop, right?
But there are many people with other developmental disabilities
or capabilities, as I'd like to say, who are able to do those
things and may not appear to someone as having, you know, a
considerable diagnosis. The same goes with autism.
Many people as they hear this episode, if they've not
encountered someone with autism or another type of diagnosis,
they might only think about someone who stems or who has,
you know, a, a very specific, like maybe even a non verbal
attribute. And I think it is important and
you mention it in your white paper that there is masking and
there are people who have not been diagnosed with these things
who may appear to be neurotypical potentially.
And when we think about that in the workplace, I think it does
allow us the this reminder that we can't judge people by the way
that they appear the by what we think that they are the same.
It really goes kind of for everything.
But you know, just because someone appears to be one way or
is non verbal, for example, doesn't mean that they have a
they don't have a whole host of of thoughts and cognitive
processes that are going on, right?
I mean, we, we know this to be true And and I think we could
talk about that alone for a very long time.
But I wanted to ask you specifically to, you know, this
reality that there are people who are undiagnosed who mask and
also people who maybe are by physical attribute, you know,
demonstratively different from someone who's neurotypical.
How do we best kind of navigate those relationships?
I can imagine that for someone who is not typically surrounded
by someone who is neurodivergent or has a, you know, is, is not
neurotypical, that it might be a little uncomfortable for them to
know how to interact or how to appropriately respect someone
and understand what they need or what questions to ask.
So where does someone start with that?
Yeah, it's a really good question.
And as you've rightly said, it's a spectrum.
So same with autism and ADHD, they're both spectrums.
So you get different differing levels of, you know, of, you
know, of how they are affected of the condition that they have.
So for example, you do have masking, particularly in women
and girls, they mask a lot. So my daughter was diagnosed
very relatively late, 14 in comparison to other children,
and my son was diagnosed at 10. So they're both autistic, but
they are like night and day. There's no commonality between
them at all. And you were saying earlier
that, you know, people may not have come across a
neurodivergent person or autistic person.
Chances are they have, they just didn't realise it.
And if you were speaking to me without knowing that I had ADHD,
even though I'm not formally diagnosed, I'm, I'm 99.9%
certain I do, there's no way you'd be able to diagnose me
from the way that I present because I present in a
neurotypical way. And even in the neurotypical
population, there's neurodivergence.
So, you know, but if you have a group of neurotypical people who
don't have autism and ADHD, there will still be different
ways of learning, different ways of thinking, different ways of
experience in the world. That's neurodiversity, and I
think it's good to sort of categorise the two because they
often get conflated and neurodivergence relates to those
specific conditions. So yes, you're right.
There are autistic people who can't speak.
There are autistic people who can't walk, there are autistic
people who have learning disabilities, but the vast
majority don't have any cognitive challenges at all.
They are most of them. I'd say at least the majority of
them are able to. I've learned in a similar way to
a neurotypical person and actually are a bit more
academically competent than most neurotypical people.
So they're very good at reading, very good with mathematics.
Not everyone. I'm not going to tire everyone
with the same brush, but I've met many autistic people who've
been to university, have degrees, master's degrees and
also pH DS. And the reason is because they
have this focus on one particular thing that they are
interested in and they can go deep, deep, deep dive into it.
In autism, it's called monotropism.
In ADHD it's called hyperfocus. And what that does is enable you
to go very deep into a topic. Over a considerable length of
time. And that lends itself to
academia completely. You know, if you're doing a, a
research degree or a PhD, that's if you're interested in that,
then you can go as deep as you like over, you know, 3 or 4
years. So yes, it is a spectrum.
There are people who can't work for, you know, for many reasons,
because they're not able to access the working environments,
they cannot socially interact. It's very difficult for them to
follow instructions. So yeah, the, the, what I always
say, my starting point for organisations is people
managers. I always call them the vanguards
of the employee experience. If you're a person manager, you
know, you have you're a supervisor in some capacity and
you have a team, you have such an opportunity there, you know,
to understand each and everyone that you manage deeply on a one
to one, you know, personal basis.
So you can say this person likes to work in this way.
I understand that they don't necessarily align with the way
that I work, that we can mitigate those challenges just
by understanding each other and, you know, intervening where
necessary. So the real, the starting point
is not HR, you know, it's not policies and processes, It's
the, the, the people manager. We put so much onus on them, but
that's because they are, you know, the, the, the first and
last touch point. Yeah, it's so true.
And as you were sharing that, I was thinking about all of these
opportunities when we do employ those who are neurodivergent
that we have a lot of opportunity talent wise because
of some of these unique skills that do come along with these
multiple diagnosis. Exactly.
Yeah, you've got, I mean, there are so many famous people who
have now revealed, you know, that they are neurodivergent.
And most of them are in the creative industries.
There aren't many in tech too. So I think Bill Gates is one of
them. I think he's said he's autistic.
Will I am say ADHD? Elon Musk, I think he's
autistic. Greta Thunberg, she's autistic.
There, there. There's many, many people who
are neurodivergent and they are super creative, super
innovative, and super productive.
So yes, you're right. Can you imagine that untapped
resource? You've got people in your
organization who are neurodivergent, but they could
be in the wrong job or they might have a manager who doesn't
understand their way of working, and that's when the problem
arises. I know for a fact that many
ADHDS have lost their jobs or being put on Pips, which are
performance improvement plans as we call them, because they have
been seen to be incompetent or perceived as disorganised.
But actually it's, it's just the way that they work differently.
And if you understand that, then you can mitigate those
challenges by putting in place some interventions that benefit
them and will help your, your team to, you know, complete
projects, you know, on a timely basis.
So it's all about awareness, it's all about understanding,
and it's all about interventions, but the right
interventions. Right.
I really appreciate what you've shared there and you know,
especially on the basis of Pips and other performance elements.
And when we think about the responsibility that people
managers have and for all of us maybe who are in HR or trying to
get into HR, there's an opportunity there to really
think about what the expectation is for people.
And that it's OK to have the same level of performance
expectation from an output standpoint, but that the journey
just might look a little bit different.
I mean, I, when I think about like even my role today, I, I
work in tech and a big part of what we do, I mean, we're remote
1st. And I think that definitely
sends a message as far as like what trust looks like in our
organization, because you have to have a lot of trust and, you
know, rely on your team to accomplish what's necessary to
get the job done and move the needle forward, right?
But I share that because when you have an organization that
inherently says, I know that you can work whatever you need to,
you know, you're going to get the job done.
You can work from home, you could work from France, you can
work from Argentina, as long as the job gets done, right.
That's kind of the same thing that needs to be applied to
really all employees, but especially those who are
neurodivergent. It's like, OK, well, you know,
as long thing is you kind of get to that end result, whatever
that performance result needs to be.
Maybe it's delivering on a project or, you know, some other
deadline. The the road to get there
doesn't have to be the same for everyone.
And as a matter of fact, in most cases, when people have the
flexibility to be creative about how they deliver on a result,
you're going to get the best out of them anyway.
And I, I do think, right, I, I think that people leaders have a
real opportunity in just changing the way that they
manage people. Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's this holding on tight to the past,
you know, the sort of historical way of doing things.
There's so many people who refuse to let that go.
And it's not necessarily related to age, although having said
that, you know, younger people do seem to be more comfortable
with the idea of remote working. But, you know, in the last two
years, we've seen a real backlash against flexible
working, remote working, you know, working from home, as they
call it. But it doesn't necessarily need
to be working from home. It could be working from a
different environment to a different office or a different
location that also belongs to the company, but it's more
comfortable for the individual. So for example, if you're
autistic, having a fixed working space is really beneficial.
So you come to the same place, you know what noise level you're
going to get, you understand the light that you're going to see,
you understand, you know, perhaps the smells that are
going to pass your way. And that's those things are
really important for autistic people.
Whereas if you have a hot desking culture where people
move around from one day to the next, that's an absolute
nightmare for an autistic person.
And you really have to understand the impact of that.
So many people, managers might say, well, what's the issue?
You know, they're just sitting over there instead of sitting
over there. But for them it's, it's much
more than that. I can recommend a book to your
listeners called The Reason I Jump.
It's by a Japanese autistic boy. He wrote it when he was 13.
I think he's a grown man now. But it's such a, well, it's a
bit childish because he was only 13 when he wrote it, but it
really gives some serious insights into what it's like to
be autistic and the experience of being in pain.
So, for example, if you do move an autistic child, an autistic
person, sorry, autistic adult, from one desk where they're used
to, to another, that actually can result in physical pain.
And that's something that's very difficult for neurotypical
people to understand. It took me a while to get my
head around it. But once you understand that
equals pain, then you know what the benefit is of leaving them
where they are. Wow, I had no idea.
That's really important information.
And it does make me think about what might be a natural next
question from someone, which would be, well, how do I know if
someone is neurodivergent if they don't share?
And of course, on the HR side of things, it's like people don't
have to share what they're experiencing in order for us to
understand or create a more inclusive environment.
Certainly people can share if they'd like to, but we know that
there are discriminatory practices, unfortunately still
in businesses and organizations today.
So I first of all, I do not encourage anyone to ask, are you
autistic? Are you ADH?
Do you have ADHD? That is not what we ask people.
And in many cases, especially in the United States, you cannot
ask that question. But what, what would you say to
someone who says, well, how do I know?
How do I know if someone needs that?
Is it that we need to just do these things as part of our
everyday or is it something else?
Yeah, it's a really good question and I was asked a
similar one yesterday. So no, you don't have to
disclose. And the same with the UK, you
know, you, you just simply don't have to say that you're
neurodivergent and they can't force you.
Businesses can't force force you to say you are, but the good
thing about disclosing is that there are interventions that you
can get as a result of the disclosure.
And that's in law. If you present a certificate
from a doctor or a psychiatrist saying that you are diagnosed
with autism or ADHD, that employer is on a bound, legally
bound to provide you with those accommodations.
So that's a good thing. But yes, of course, many people
still don't disclose, but that's the, the wonderful thing about
neuro inclusion. This is why I love my, my job so
much. You know, my course, my program,
everything I teach is around creating this neuro inclusive
approach to work and neuro inclusive culture.
If you don't have it, then it's going to be a challenge for you.
You have to have an environment which is conducive to being
neuro inclusive in the beginning.
So for example, if you're, I don't know, you know, a company
which is very different culturally to Google, then you
know, you can't be Google. But you know within your
environment you can create a culture if the leadership is
willing to, which is still neuro inclusive.
You don't have to be a Nike or a, or a Google or a Facebook or
a Meta or anything like that. You can still create a neuro
inclusive culture which is aligned to your business and to
your industry. So it's all about tailoring that
approach, but understanding that your inclusion is the starting
point. If your culture is not, you
know, ready for creating an environment in which your
neurodivergent employees and future talent can thrive, then
it's it's never going to work. That's amazing to to reflect on
and, and it's, I love that we are kind of coming back to the,
the very beginning of this podcast that it's, you know, and
it's really about what you do and it's about driving neuro
inclusion. And when we think about
inclusivity, I mean, that is a huge part of it.
And I really love that, you know, when we can think about
like ways that we create neuro inclusion, that it's, it's not
always about creating something different, but it's rather about
adjusting the way in which we work today or the things that
already exist in order to be more inclusive for those who
require it and really need those interventions, as you've put it,
in order to perform their best and have the, the best potential
for their own happiness and engagement and success.
Yeah, exactly. It's all about creating an
environment that works for not everyone.
I'm not going to go down that road because you get people
saying, well, we can all benefit from it.
But it it, when you go down that road, then you lose the
understanding of what it is to be neurodivergent.
It's not everyone that can benefit.
It's neurodivergent, you know, people that can benefit.
So for example, I don't mind hotdesking.
I, I keep using that example because many people would
consider that to be not a problem or an innocuous, you
know, request, move your desk or, you know, change your meet
your usual meeting room, do things, you know, a bit
differently today. You know, for, for most people,
I guess they'd be OK with that. But for an autistic person,
you're asking a lot of them, you know, to change that position,
even if it is just for one day. It's, you're asking them for a
lot. So if you understand that, then
you know, you know how to intervene in the right way.
It's all about understanding. And This is why I wrote the
white paper, you know, to give people that baseline awareness
of of what it's like to be neurodivergent in the workplace.
Right. Well, thank you so much for all
of your insights and the research that you've done and
all of the expertise that you've brought to this podcast and to
the listeners. I really appreciate it.
And I'll link that book that you've suggested as well as
your, your, your information. But just to give you the
opportunity, where can listeners connect with you if they want to
learn more or they want they need a consultant, maybe even
for their own organizations or want to connect?
Yeah, Thank you so much, Tracy. You can visit my website, which
is Where to look comms.co.uk. I'm on LinkedIn.
You can find me at K to CJ, DM me there.
Or you can reach me via my e-mail, which is K to CJ at
where to Look comms.co.uk. So any of those channels are all
right. You'll reach me no problem.
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for
joining the podcast. Really appreciate it.
Like I said and I it was amazing to hear all of these insights.
Thank you so much. Hey, just before you go, don't
forget to subscribe to the show so.
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