Welcome back to the Bringing the human Back to Human resources
podcast, The Replay series. I'm your host, Tracy Turn off,
and I'm thrilled to have you join us once again as we journey
through the episodes that have top charts around the world.
In this podcast series, we're revisiting some of our most
insightful, thought provoking, and transformative conversations
with industry experts, thought leaders, and practitioners.
These episodes have made waves, sparking meaningful conversation
and inspiring positive change throughout human resources.
Whether you're a dedicated listener who's been with us from
the start or you're just tuning in for the first time, the
Replay series offers a chance to dive deep into the core
principles that guide our exploration into HR practices.
So, get ready to rediscover the discussions that continue to
shape the future of HR. Without further ado, let's step
back in time and immerse ourselves into the podcast's top
charted episodes. Let the replay begin.
Listen, everyone, we have a very exciting series upon us.
We're going to be talking about layoffs these next few episodes.
And so I have Jenna Dune with me, who is going to kick off
this series about layoffs with us.
And we're going to really specifically talk about how to
conduct layoffs with dignity and how to recover after them
internally. And so these are some topics
that we I haven't really discussed very specifically on
the podcast. I'm excited to dive in.
But let me introduce you first to Jenna, who is the founder of
recruit the employer and out placement and career development
firm. She started her career out on
Wall Street working in investment banking at the New
York Stock Exchange. From there, she spent over nine
years in the learning and development space and a variety
of roles from trainer to chief learning officer at a variety of
growing organizations. She has 42,000 plus followers on
LinkedIn. Hopefully more after this
episode launches. Is a LinkedIn Learning
Instructor with over 167,000 learners and has been featured
on Business Insider, Forbes, Built in The Scam, and The Muse.
She lives in Franklin, TN with her fellow Pittsburgh native
husband Brent, daughter Vivian, and Sheepa Doodle Hank.
And for fun, she's an amateur Baker, world class pickleball
loser, and occasional needlepoint to her.
I love it. Jenna, welcome to You got to.
Have fun with those BIOS, am I right?
Like sometimes they just can get a little stale.
So everybody knows I'm really bad at pickleball, but I still
show up to play the game. You know what?
That's OK. That's a great lesson for life.
It's like we might not always win, but as long as we're having
a little bit of fun, that's a win in itself.
Now, if my husband starts to try to give me pointers, then we're
not having fun. But if we're just out there to
have fun and if I lose, I'm OK with that, yeah.
I like that, and if your husband loses, that's probably.
It's better, yeah. That's amazing.
One team 1 dream in marriage. Yeah, So I always say that's
amazing. Well, Jenna, thank you so much
again for joining the podcast. And as I mentioned at the top of
reading your bio, this is the start to our layoff series,
which, you know, we kind of thinking about the end of the
year with the podcast, we were were speaking like as a team,
thinking about what is really happening in the world and what
feels super relevant. And so layoffs obviously have
come up quite a bit. And if you go on Reddit or you
go on Twitter, you'll see everyone's talking about layoffs
and the job market totally sucking and like all this stuff.
So that is why you are kicking off the series for us because
you are, as I would call it, kind of a the, the chief dignity
and layoff officer for me. Like you, you know, when we
first started talking, you were sharing some insights that I
thought were very untouched. Like there are things that you
talk about and the, and things that you do in your role that
really I think help employers to look at layoffs differently.
So why don't we start there? Talk to us about what that means
to conduct layoffs with dignity and, and maybe it even starts
before that. Maybe there's something that
kind of kicks off this topic in a better way.
Yeah. Well, one, yes, I'm the layoff
lady. I talk about the things that
nobody wants to talk about, right.
It's the big elephant in the room.
We're entering into quote UN quote layoff season.
You know, if there's kind of hiring freeze, especially around
election, like after the election that we're entering
into what is formally, what I'm calling formally known, it's not
formally known. I'm going at that layoff season,
right? So we have a lot of companies
that will often layoff right around this time, right around
the holidays, unfortunately, right around the turn of the new
year when the fiscal year ends for a lot of organizations.
And so you're going to see more of that.
And I would actually say the best way to start off talking
about layoffs with dignity is to take a step back and to start to
think is this is HR leaders that are listening to this podcast,
right? Let's start to think about what
are the company values that you represent in the HR team?
And my guess is that the core values of your organization
probably involve something around integrity.
Maybe there's like high standards of something, right?
And so when we're thinking about layoffs, we need to go back to
our core values and make sure that we are laying off in the
same way that's aligned with our core values, right?
A lot of companies really focus on the core values and then like
they sit on the shelf and nobody really talks about them.
But they are so important and so crucial to attaching it actually
not just to the entire, you know, ethos of the culture, but
actually to how do we leave people well and how do we make
sure we transition them well when they don't really have a
choice but to leave, right? And so a lot of organizations
spend a lot of time thinking about those wonderful core
values at the beginning part of the employee life cycle, the
onboarding. But what we like to talk about
and recommend for organizations to start to think about is you
should be off boarding as well as you onboard if you care about
employees, if you care about being generous in the layoff
process and which I think most HR leaders really want to do
that. And so that's kind of what how I
would take that step back is. It really starts with the core
values. It's really starts with the idea
that off boarding is just as important as on boarding.
Yeah, I totally agree. It's so interesting that you
talk about this too and, and in the scope of the election also,
because last week for the 200th episode, I talked about how I
pretty much didn't agree with this recent report that came out
about how 95% of workers who actually were workers polled.
And this was one of the big grapes that I had with the
report is that it sure 95% of workers and not 95% of the
people that they actually asked. Right.
That's like every statistic everywhere at all times for all
reports. So yeah, true, you're not wrong.
Like what is happening here? But they said, you know, 95% of
people would be looking for a new job.
And I was like, that's literally not true.
Like you're in the midst of an election year.
And that this is when people generally feel the most
instability, when companies tend to go through the most change or
become the most conservative with their either their fiscal
plan or their hiring plan, whatever it might be.
So I appreciate that you brought that up because I think it
really is very relevant. And when we think about layoffs
too, and how all of that is related to just like this season
and what we're going through at the end of an election year or
at the really the start of an election year, is that with all
of that change, people become much more like feeling.
They start to feel much more shaky and they feel a lack of
stability. And then there is also, I think
a fear associated like, are they going to be laid off?
Is their job secure? What does that look like?
And then you have all of these outside influences where we hear
and see people. Open up LinkedIn.
To your point, you said Reddit or I don't go to Reddit, that's
just a dumpster fire. But LinkedIn has become some of
that place, right? Which is a more you kind of have
to be there if you want to then be looking actively for a job.
So you make a great point. Exactly.
It's like you have to be there, but then part of you is like,
well, I don't want to see all of this because it's making me like
a little bit less secure in what's going on.
So all of that to say that IA 100% agree with what you're
saying. And on the off boarding piece, I
definitely want to dig in there because I'm sure that there are
listeners who have probably never been a part of an off
boarding process before. So when you say off boarding,
what does that really entail for you?
Yeah. Well, I would just say that
there should be a process period and I think a lot of
organizations don't think about it until they need to think
about it and then it's too late. I'm actually going to read a
couple of things that will happen if an employer doesn't
think about the off boarding until it's they have to off
board somebody in the in a way that they aren't just choosing
themselves to leave, that they are being kind of pushed out
from by lack of a better phrase. So if these, if you're not
thinking about it beforehand, right, plans are going to be
haphazardly pulled together, the exiting employee is going to
feel like a number. Even if they didn't feel like a
number throughout their entire experience, that lasting
impression is going to make an impact on them as they're
exiting. It's going to dramatically hurt
the employer brand, which is this intrinsic thing that we
really don't know how to like quantify, but it really does
matter in the talent acquisition game.
A lot of HR professionals know that there's also a higher
chance of lawsuits that are going to happen if you're not
thinking about this stuff strategically and thinking about
it proactively. And then obviously for those
that are left behind, there's this like survivor's guilt
that's going to happen, right? And so if it's not communicated
effectively, if it's not, if people don't feel as if they are
truly given that soft landing, it's going to have
ramifications, not just on the brand, not just on the
organization, and obviously on those people that are getting
let go, but for those that remain.
That's a big thing that a lot of people don't talk about the loss
of productivity that happens. I mean, there's a lot of
studies. There's actually just a a piece
that came out that talked about the cost of layoffs and
productivity being one of the main things.
That's a huge issue because if people don't feel like they're
secure, to your point, they're not going there.
They don't have trust in the organization.
So there has to be a plan also to rebuild trust, not just, hey,
we offer these people, hope they're fine, we're going to
send them on their merry way. All right, let's just get back
to business as normal. It doesn't really work like
that. And so being able to acknowledge
that that's going to be the reality and plan for it
proactively is just what we're talking about here.
You're not going to solve every problem.
There are going to be disgruntled employees.
There's going to be people that are they're going to have that
kind of break and trust. But there has to be a rebuild
plan in place and a plan to, you know, again, provide a soft
landing for those individuals. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And you know, I'm thinking about all of the processes that I've
had to go through as an HR professional, you know, whether
it's conducting A layoff or having to figure out what that
off boarding looks like. I think to your point, there is
that cascading of information that is a huge part of the off
boarding process and there's also the operational side of the
off boarding process related to that person.
So it's like there's all and you kind of mentioned it in terms of
getting all of the plans in place.
But really it's when we think about that almost like
tactically for it's a lot of work, it's a lot of work.
This is a lot of work, not something that can be haphazard.
So I think that was the first thing that you said is that
without in off boarding it is a haphazard process and when you
have a haphazard process, you have so much business risk,
right, just so much. And so I think about, you know,
for those listening who maybe have not been exposed to off
boarding processes for the operational side of things, you
have to think about severance agreements and separation
agreements, severance amounts, I should say, and what the person,
where the person lives, what state requirements might apply
in terms of termination pay or final pay or bonuses.
Like all of that are all of those things are things that
have to really be thought about in advance.
And I know that they're going to be people who are maybe not in
HR or who are in HR and maybe a little skeptical who are going
to think, well, you know, if you're planning so far ahead,
like I should know, the person who's being laid off should know
as far in advance versus being told that same day or that same
week that that is the end of the road for them.
But I just think that that is potentially looking at things
with the, you know, rose colored glasses on because all of these
things are operational. They're things that do require
planning. They require time and
collaboration, most likely with like finance teams and other.
Legal teams. Legal teams, exactly.
And other people in the business and I, as much as it totally
sucks to have to either lead a layoff process or to be laid
off, there can't always be that abundance in terms of
transparency because especially because of all of those things
that you mentioned. Also in terms of cascading
information, imagine there's a, you know, potentially something
that falls into the category of a mass layoff and people are
notified without all of the plans.
Like what does that do for those people?
Yeah, it makes sense. A more new panic, yeah.
Exactly, you're going to have spiraling people that are just
spiraling out of control. There's more business risk and
then the the individuals who remain on in the organization
and to your point feel potentially some survivors guilt
are probably starting to feel even more shaky in their
experiences so. Looking around, I mean, there's
a lot of things that happen and some of the questions that I
recommend HR leaders to think about.
And again, it's all about having this plan is like what kind of
communication plan do we have? That one is like the most
important piece, how you communicate, what you
communicate to your point, like there is a difference between
transparency and oversharing. Like you can, you can be
transparent, but not overshare. And I definitely think there's a
fine line. And it's often hard for leaders
in general, not just HR leaders to find that fine line.
And honestly, it's a case by case basis.
I can't tell you like this is the perfect script for that.
I wish I could tell you that there isn't one.
We've seen companies do it really great and some companies
where it didn't land as well. And So what how are we
communicating to employees that are being, you know, taken that
are going through the layoff process for those organization,
for those people that are going to be left behind for the
public, maybe shareholders, like how are we communicating this to
the public, right? And then what is that severance
going to look like? Are we going to offer out
placement? Obviously we're biased because
we're an out placement firm. We really recommend that because
it can provide that career transition services just to
provide them with that soft place to ask questions because
the job market has changed the digital space even the last five
years, it's changed so much. But also like what are we going
to offer in terms of benefits? How are we going to rebuild
trust? Like what's our plan of action
once that layoff is finalized? And we have to proceed like,
what are we going to do to rebuild trust?
Because we're going to have to. It's not a matter of if, it's a
matter of when you be rebuild trust.
So let's get a plan in place. Let's get some things in place
to make sure that we're making those people that are left
behind feel more secure. And if you have a lot of that
stuff in place, when a layoff comes, what feels like fast,
which it often does for some people, right, maybe they even
for senior HR leaders, it's like, oh, we're, we have to do
this now. And if there's not a plan in
place, having that contingency plan, it's just going to help
you hit the ground running a little bit easier and make sure
it's a little bit more smooth of a transition.
Totally agree. And this is a a huge mirror into
leadership at an organization too, in terms of how information
is cascaded, what that communication plan looks like.
And realistically communication plans once they're devised and
they prove to be well executed, they can just continue to be
used for anything that maybe is information that's either good,
bad or in between. It's, you know, pretty agnostic
in terms of what the communication is.
But for those who may not know or may not have ever used out
placement services, can you expand a little bit more on what
that is and what you do? Yeah, it's so funny.
I was at the HR tech conference at the time of this was like
about a month ago. And when I started telling
people about out placement that had no idea of what it was,
which I'm actually kind of surprised when I talked to an HR
leader that doesn't know what out placement is, they'll call
it outsourcing. I'm like very different, very
different thing. But they kept on referring to
the movie Up in the Air with George Clooney.
They're like, oh, you're George Clooney and up in the air.
I'm like, I am not the person delivering the layoff news, So
no, I am not him. Just for clarification.
But out placement really at the end of the day and how we
specifically look at out placement because there's a lot
of bigger big box firms that are out there and kind of respect
what they are pulling together. But what we really focus on is
how do we holistically serve that person who is now a
candidate and help them navigate the candidate marketplace,
taking back control, control of their career, building their
confidence back up and ultimately making sure that
their marketing materials are in place so that they can apply to
jobs effectively. They can interview for jobs
effectively and they feel good about themselves in the process.
Out placement services in my opinion, is really should be
utilized not just to give somebody a bunch of resume tips
and here's some jobs we're going to push to you.
You figure that part out. That's what a lot of out
placement firms are like. Unfortunately, nowadays how we
really look at it is how do we first rebuild your confidence
because it's going to affect everything else in the process,
right? So we provide everything from
the coaching piece to really helping somebody get clarity on
what they want to do next, using this as a pivotal point in their
career, as a positive thing in their career.
We are very encouraging. It's a fun atmosphere.
We don't make it sad like, hey, you got laid off.
Here's some sad organization to go to.
Like we'd make it fun, right? And so try to do our best to
really uplift people as they're navigating what can be a
challenging, what is a challenging season.
It is proven that the top like tragedies in a personal life,
the most stressful moments in a person's life come down to death
of a loved one, divorce and losing their job.
That is it's a big one. And so we really take that
responsibility seriously of stewarding those people that are
exited and really try to make them alumni's of your
organization as best as we can as we're transitioning them.
That's fabulous. And it's also so important what
you said at the end there that they to make them as best as
possible alumni of the organization because you really
do. And I think we talked about this
the first time we spoke. You really do want people to go
out the way they came in. You want them to feel supported.
You want them to feel optimistic about the organization,
especially some people might be shareholders while they're
leaving organizations. Exactly.
Against their their will in some ways, right?
Like, so you, you want them to feel still connected to an
organization, even if there's negative emotion obviously
surrounding being laid off. And what you said also around
what you do in terms of being stewards for the organization,
excuse me, for those leading the organization, there is
potentially like a softer blow when someone hears that while
they are being laid off. And that is one of the most
stressful moments of their lives.
And I totally, totally can understand that, that then they
actually are not just being sent out into the cold, cruel world
figured out. They're being sent to almost
like a middle place, a middle ground that allows them to have
resources beyond that experience in that organization.
We're a good kind of purgatory. That's what I always say I was.
Thinking is we're. A good kind of purgatory, you
know, or yes, we are that middle ground and, and you know, I
think The thing is too is we really lead with the embassy and
I'm a person who has been affected by a layoff before.
Thankfully, I had an organization that was very
generous as they were letting me go.
And at the same time though, and, and I also wanted to leave
the organization. I was going off to do my own
thing to build something. And it still was a huge blow to
me personally, even though I was planning to leave.
And even though they were super generous, but I still have
really good feelings towards that organization because they
were generous and towards the leaders, because I know
sometimes layoffs have to happen, right?
They have to happen. And HR is not always the bad
person in that process, right? Most of the time, you're not.
Yeah, it's not your fault that you're having to go through this
layoff. You just get to do The Dirty
work, unfortunately. And so we really take that
because I am a practitioner first, because I was somebody
who is affected by a layoff. I know those feelings of shame.
I know those feelings of am I actually really good at what I'm
doing? Even though they told me I'm
really good and they said this has nothing to do with my
performance, I still feel like, well, why did my friend not get
let go right? So the very real emotions that
somebody's going through or like, Oh my gosh, everyone's
saying that the job market is terrible.
I'm going to, it's going to take me forever to find a job.
Like those talk tracks really make a difference.
And after doing practitioner work for over a, you know, a
decade of working with people one-on-one, those talk tracks
really make a difference in somebody's ability to stay
resilient through the process, which is necessary no matter
what market we're in. But also it really effects what
jobs they apply for, what they go for, if they negotiate their
salary, if they interview well, right?
A lot of people haven't interviewed in maybe five years
or even 2 years. Like you're rusty and you don't
need a lack of confidence to ruin your chances of landing the
job. So we kind of, we spiff up
somebody. We always say we're like we, we
just give you an ultimate makeover in your career.
Yeah, I love that. It's, it's really so true.
I work with clients on resumes and career coaching, interview
prep and stuff like that. And it comes up so often that
people have, you know, they could be at executive level and
they haven't interviewed in like 15 years and they don't even
know where to start. And your resumes haven't even
been touched. And you're like, you know,
dusting off the cobwebs basically.
And it really, it's such a skill.
And when you don't use that skill, it becomes a little rusty
and you have to, kind of like the Tin Man, oil up the joints
so that you can get moving again.
Yeah, nobody uses utilizes that skill set.
I utilize that skill set every day.
So I'm used to it and it's easy peasy for me, right.
If I had to find a job for whatever reason, I could find a
job really quickly because I use those skills all the time.
It is insane for a company to think that, oh, they can just
figure it out because it's not that easy to just figure it out,
especially in the digital world that we live in.
And like, should I have a how robust should my LinkedIn
profile be? How much information?
I mean, all the logistical questions were a soft place to
answer those. And no stupid question.
There's no stupid question, right, because you don't
practice it. It's not your fault that you
don't know that, and it's also not your fault your college
never taught you. So like we, you know, put an
aside there in but it but we really help make sure that that
person feels equipped because it really does make a difference.
So I would really encourage an HR leader to push for that
within their their, you know, the team that's involved with
deciding what that those packages look like.
And I would also say that when choosing an out placement
provider, make sure that they really have one really great
strategist coaches that know what's up and that aren't
antiquated with their strategies.
There's a lot of firms out there that provide antiquated
strategies that there is some personalization involved and
that the person isn't just getting like shoved to the side,
but they actually don't they don't feel like a number that
that that that placement firm actually makes them feel seen
and unknown. Yeah, I can imagine that that is
extremely critical considering you're going from such an
impactful moments in their lives to then wanting to feel
supported and seen and heard and all those things.
It don't just check a box. It's better for you to use that
money if you're just checking a box, use that money towards
their severance, like their severance, honestly.
But if you're really trying to be intentional with finding a
provider that's going to make sure that they feel supported
throughout, that is something that's that's worthy of
investing in. Yeah, I'm glad you bring up this
point too, because we've talked a lot about what it is like and
the importance also of going through these layoff processes
and making sure that they're really thoughtful and that we,
you know, that dignity is at the core of all of this.
And then as you've just mentioned, there's also this
tactical piece for HR leaders in leveraging different, I don't
want to call them perks, but basically providers that that do
support exiting employees with what I guess we could categorize
as a benefit to their exit and that is like an out placement
service. And so for those listening
effectively, what they would need to do is really think about
all of their benefits and their full benefits package from start
to finish in the employee life cycle.
And so that then when they have a layoff process, because every
organization at some point goes through some sort of layoff
process, it's kind of inevitable then they have already thought
about what their resources and what their extended benefits
will be for those individuals. So you I I guess it would be
safe to say that you would recommend that they think about
that before. Absolutely, yeah.
Because you want to be thoughtful in your vetting and
not just use perhaps who you've always, always used, which I
think a lot of companies do. And that's fine.
But I would use it as an encouragement to like re
evaluate who your provider is and what they're really
providing for those, for those exiting employees.
And are they truly making them alums of your organization or
are they just kind of giving them a bunch of resume tips and
like sending them on their merry way?
There's a difference, right? There's a difference in kind of
thinking about the person in that way.
Right. That totally makes sense.
And I think just to kind of come back to one of the other things
that we mentioned at the top of the podcast, which is what to do
when the rest of the organization may feel survivors
guilt. How would you recommend leaders,
whether they're in HR or not, navigate this common feeling
amongst employees that are retained and remain in the
organization? And what is the best way for
kind of dealing with and approaching that situation?
Yeah, there's no one, right? one-size-fits-all.
I think it really depends on how, again, what was your
communication plan like what? What are we trying to remedy
here? Right, right.
Right. There's different levels of
trust that we have to rebuild depending on how well it's
planned out. But what I would say in general
that I've seen work for organizations and again, you're
going to have some rockiness. It's going to happen.
So there's no way to fully solve for it and be like, if we do
these XYZ three things, then your organization's going to be
fine. Everyone's going to be happy to
go lucky and you're going to lose.
No product like that is illogical and it's not human,
right? We're in human resources, so
that is not human because we have emotions.
And so I think providing space for people to have those
emotions, for having channels of communication up and down, for
people to really for the leaders to really be honest about their
mistakes. This is it's kind of like
parenting, right? So I have a daughter.
She's 2020 months old. I have another one on the way.
And thank you. Yeah.
And I'm thinking about when she's a teenager, if I am not
modeling for her what it looks like to apologize, how can I
expect her to show, you know what I'm saying?
So like with leaders, it's taking ownership of what your
responsibility was and why this is happening.
What could because at the end of the day, even if economic
climates, whatever, the people at the top still have some of
that responsibility and should own that.
Be honest about that. A great example of somebody who
did this was during 2020 and it was actually Airbnb.
Now, I don't know how Airbnb has handled layoffs post that, but
but you know, people can have their opinions.
But for this specific one, the the leader wrote a really
beautiful letter to the employees, wrote a really
beautiful letter to the public and explained what he went wrong
and where the leadership went wrong and what they're doing to
kind of remedy that for the future.
They just put some great plans in place.
So like the ownership piece, right, I think is super, super
important during this season. So that's the first thing for
leaders. Now you as an HR person can
recommend that to the senior leadership.
They have to really own that for themselves.
But that is like the first step is owning leaders, leaders to
own their mistakes in the process.
The second thing that I would say is again, that communication
up and down, providing opportunities for people to
express their emotions that they're going to naturally feel.
And then I would also say some team building that happens
between, especially between C-Suite leadership that kind of
really made the decision and that middle management, because
if the middle management is feeling rocky, their teams are
going to feel rocky, which means your whole company is going to
feel rocky. And so there needs to be some
sort of either workshops done or communication plans in place,
like really, really trying to bridge the gap between senior
leadership and middle management.
I think it's a really great strategy.
We do workshops around that to help companies post layoff with
that exact thing. But that's something to really
consider. And then generally speaking, I'd
say the other part of it is really like, how do we rebuild
culture? So going back to those core
values that we talked about the very beginning, how are we, how
can we put some fun things in place to bring some levity to
the mood to thank the people that are left behind to
encourage them that their jobs are safe, which hopefully,
hopefully they are and which we don't know, right, They might
be, they might not be. But still to provide that
encouragement that hey, if this does happen, this is how we
handled it. We believe this is a really
great strategy that we did use. We did think thoughtfully about
it didn't just happen like happenstance.
And then just to provide those opportunities for people to
rebuild their culture in the way that they would if they were
starting over new. It's kind of like a new company
happens every time a layoff happens.
So acknowledging that and rebuilding the culture from the
ground up is something that needs to be thought about.
Yeah, I think that's awesome and super appreciate you going
through some of these like tactical tangible things that
leaders can really think about. Because as we discussed at the
top of this, it is kind of a time for a lot of change and a
lot of worry and fear of the unknown.
I mean, we're if we're upon the election in a few weeks.
And so this, I just feel like every four years this comes up.
It's like even though layoffs happen throughout the year and
of course, pretty much on the regular, this, we know that
there are things at a macro level that do affect the way
that people feel at work and the level of security that they feel
at work. So all of those things that
you've talked about and all of those realities in terms of how
leaders need to plan appropriately and responsibly to
make this process as effective and dignified as possible is so
important. So thank you so much for walking
us through that and giving us all of your expert insights and
tips and all of that. And so I guess I'll we'll close
with allowing the listeners to understand where they can learn
more about you and your company and how they can hopefully get
connected if they're interested in bringing out placement
services of yours to their own company.
Yeah. So the best places is one our
website, recruitthemployer.com and then also my personal I
would love to meet you if you're a listener of this and you feel
even just if you're like that made me think that would be a
fine response. Not like, Hey, what should set
up a call and I need your out placement services just like,
Hey, that made me think. If you want to reach out to me
on LinkedIn, you can find me at Jenna Viviano Dune.
I live there, I breathe there. I doom scroll there, right?
So I am, I am there all the time and would love to meet you and
just encourage you also as an HR leader, because your job's hard
and your job's been really hard for the past couple of years,
honestly, since COVID. And so just to send you some
encouragement as well that you know, there will be good news.
And in case there's bad news, we're here to help.
Jenna, thank you so much again for your time and all of your
expert knowledge on this topic. Thanks for having me Tracy, love
being here. Hey, just before you go, don't
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Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll.
See you next week.