1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,160 Welcome back to the Bringing the human Back to Human resources 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,880 podcast, The Replay series. I'm your host, Tracy Turn off, 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,080 and I'm thrilled to have you join us once again as we journey 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,840 through the episodes that have top charts around the world. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,800 In this podcast series, we're revisiting some of our most 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,200 insightful, thought provoking, and transformative conversations 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,640 with industry experts, thought leaders, and practitioners. 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,400 These episodes have made waves, sparking meaningful conversation 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,360 and inspiring positive change throughout human resources. 10 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,120 Whether you're a dedicated listener who's been with us from 11 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,280 the start or you're just tuning in for the first time, the 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,240 Replay series offers a chance to dive deep into the core 13 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,800 principles that guide our exploration into HR practices. 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,520 So, get ready to rediscover the discussions that continue to 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,800 shape the future of HR. Without further ado, let's step 16 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,920 back in time and immerse ourselves into the podcast's top 17 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,360 charted episodes. Let the replay begin. 18 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,240 Listen, everyone, we have a very exciting series upon us. 19 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,080 We're going to be talking about layoffs these next few episodes. 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,720 And so I have Jenna Dune with me, who is going to kick off 21 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,280 this series about layoffs with us. 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,640 And we're going to really specifically talk about how to 23 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,480 conduct layoffs with dignity and how to recover after them 24 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,920 internally. And so these are some topics 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,720 that we I haven't really discussed very specifically on 26 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,920 the podcast. I'm excited to dive in. 27 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,400 But let me introduce you first to Jenna, who is the founder of 28 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,240 recruit the employer and out placement and career development 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,200 firm. She started her career out on 30 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:35,840 Wall Street working in investment banking at the New 31 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,920 York Stock Exchange. From there, she spent over nine 32 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,240 years in the learning and development space and a variety 33 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:45,080 of roles from trainer to chief learning officer at a variety of 34 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,200 growing organizations. She has 42,000 plus followers on 35 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:50,640 LinkedIn. Hopefully more after this 36 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:53,960 episode launches. Is a LinkedIn Learning 37 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,680 Instructor with over 167,000 learners and has been featured 38 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,520 on Business Insider, Forbes, Built in The Scam, and The Muse. 39 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,560 She lives in Franklin, TN with her fellow Pittsburgh native 40 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,480 husband Brent, daughter Vivian, and Sheepa Doodle Hank. 41 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,759 And for fun, she's an amateur Baker, world class pickleball 42 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,720 loser, and occasional needlepoint to her. 43 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,400 I love it. Jenna, welcome to You got to. 44 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,040 Have fun with those BIOS, am I right? 45 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,200 Like sometimes they just can get a little stale. 46 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,240 So everybody knows I'm really bad at pickleball, but I still 47 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:24,880 show up to play the game. You know what? 48 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:26,760 That's OK. That's a great lesson for life. 49 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,520 It's like we might not always win, but as long as we're having 50 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,480 a little bit of fun, that's a win in itself. 51 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,480 Now, if my husband starts to try to give me pointers, then we're 52 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,800 not having fun. But if we're just out there to 53 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,120 have fun and if I lose, I'm OK with that, yeah. 54 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,760 I like that, and if your husband loses, that's probably. 55 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,640 It's better, yeah. That's amazing. 56 00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:49,680 One team 1 dream in marriage. Yeah, So I always say that's 57 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,200 amazing. Well, Jenna, thank you so much 58 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,960 again for joining the podcast. And as I mentioned at the top of 59 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,200 reading your bio, this is the start to our layoff series, 60 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,000 which, you know, we kind of thinking about the end of the 61 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,320 year with the podcast, we were were speaking like as a team, 62 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,640 thinking about what is really happening in the world and what 63 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,640 feels super relevant. And so layoffs obviously have 64 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:17,080 come up quite a bit. And if you go on Reddit or you 65 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,280 go on Twitter, you'll see everyone's talking about layoffs 66 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:22,840 and the job market totally sucking and like all this stuff. 67 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,440 So that is why you are kicking off the series for us because 68 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:32,200 you are, as I would call it, kind of a the, the chief dignity 69 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,680 and layoff officer for me. Like you, you know, when we 70 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,240 first started talking, you were sharing some insights that I 71 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,960 thought were very untouched. Like there are things that you 72 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,320 talk about and the, and things that you do in your role that 73 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,880 really I think help employers to look at layoffs differently. 74 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,040 So why don't we start there? Talk to us about what that means 75 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,400 to conduct layoffs with dignity and, and maybe it even starts 76 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:58,560 before that. Maybe there's something that 77 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,840 kind of kicks off this topic in a better way. 78 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,440 Yeah. Well, one, yes, I'm the layoff 79 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,120 lady. I talk about the things that 80 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,040 nobody wants to talk about, right. 81 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:08,360 It's the big elephant in the room. 82 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,760 We're entering into quote UN quote layoff season. 83 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,600 You know, if there's kind of hiring freeze, especially around 84 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,880 election, like after the election that we're entering 85 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,320 into what is formally, what I'm calling formally known, it's not 86 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,440 formally known. I'm going at that layoff season, 87 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:24,600 right? So we have a lot of companies 88 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,440 that will often layoff right around this time, right around 89 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,960 the holidays, unfortunately, right around the turn of the new 90 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,320 year when the fiscal year ends for a lot of organizations. 91 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,000 And so you're going to see more of that. 92 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,440 And I would actually say the best way to start off talking 93 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,880 about layoffs with dignity is to take a step back and to start to 94 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,480 think is this is HR leaders that are listening to this podcast, 95 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,240 right? Let's start to think about what 96 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,520 are the company values that you represent in the HR team? 97 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,160 And my guess is that the core values of your organization 98 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,520 probably involve something around integrity. 99 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,480 Maybe there's like high standards of something, right? 100 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,680 And so when we're thinking about layoffs, we need to go back to 101 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:03,920 our core values and make sure that we are laying off in the 102 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,280 same way that's aligned with our core values, right? 103 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,440 A lot of companies really focus on the core values and then like 104 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,760 they sit on the shelf and nobody really talks about them. 105 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,800 But they are so important and so crucial to attaching it actually 106 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,160 not just to the entire, you know, ethos of the culture, but 107 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,120 actually to how do we leave people well and how do we make 108 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,640 sure we transition them well when they don't really have a 109 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,760 choice but to leave, right? And so a lot of organizations 110 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,080 spend a lot of time thinking about those wonderful core 111 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,600 values at the beginning part of the employee life cycle, the 112 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:35,920 onboarding. But what we like to talk about 113 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,920 and recommend for organizations to start to think about is you 114 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,080 should be off boarding as well as you onboard if you care about 115 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,800 employees, if you care about being generous in the layoff 116 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,920 process and which I think most HR leaders really want to do 117 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,520 that. And so that's kind of what how I 118 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,640 would take that step back is. It really starts with the core 119 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:55,640 values. It's really starts with the idea 120 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,360 that off boarding is just as important as on boarding. 121 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,400 Yeah, I totally agree. It's so interesting that you 122 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,320 talk about this too and, and in the scope of the election also, 123 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:10,920 because last week for the 200th episode, I talked about how I 124 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,560 pretty much didn't agree with this recent report that came out 125 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,600 about how 95% of workers who actually were workers polled. 126 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,480 And this was one of the big grapes that I had with the 127 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,280 report is that it sure 95% of workers and not 95% of the 128 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:27,520 people that they actually asked. Right. 129 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,640 That's like every statistic everywhere at all times for all 130 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,360 reports. So yeah, true, you're not wrong. 131 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:36,480 Like what is happening here? But they said, you know, 95% of 132 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:37,760 people would be looking for a new job. 133 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,520 And I was like, that's literally not true. 134 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,400 Like you're in the midst of an election year. 135 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,960 And that this is when people generally feel the most 136 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,640 instability, when companies tend to go through the most change or 137 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,280 become the most conservative with their either their fiscal 138 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:55,720 plan or their hiring plan, whatever it might be. 139 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,200 So I appreciate that you brought that up because I think it 140 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,280 really is very relevant. And when we think about layoffs 141 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:05,680 too, and how all of that is related to just like this season 142 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,320 and what we're going through at the end of an election year or 143 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,480 at the really the start of an election year, is that with all 144 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,640 of that change, people become much more like feeling. 145 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,880 They start to feel much more shaky and they feel a lack of 146 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,320 stability. And then there is also, I think 147 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,200 a fear associated like, are they going to be laid off? 148 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,200 Is their job secure? What does that look like? 149 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,680 And then you have all of these outside influences where we hear 150 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,880 and see people. Open up LinkedIn. 151 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,240 To your point, you said Reddit or I don't go to Reddit, that's 152 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,640 just a dumpster fire. But LinkedIn has become some of 153 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,840 that place, right? Which is a more you kind of have 154 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,240 to be there if you want to then be looking actively for a job. 155 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:43,840 So you make a great point. Exactly. 156 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,960 It's like you have to be there, but then part of you is like, 157 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,440 well, I don't want to see all of this because it's making me like 158 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,160 a little bit less secure in what's going on. 159 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:56,120 So all of that to say that IA 100% agree with what you're 160 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,880 saying. And on the off boarding piece, I 161 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,120 definitely want to dig in there because I'm sure that there are 162 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:06,120 listeners who have probably never been a part of an off 163 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,560 boarding process before. So when you say off boarding, 164 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,400 what does that really entail for you? 165 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,040 Yeah. Well, I would just say that 166 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,840 there should be a process period and I think a lot of 167 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,840 organizations don't think about it until they need to think 168 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:21,880 about it and then it's too late. I'm actually going to read a 169 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,160 couple of things that will happen if an employer doesn't 170 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,160 think about the off boarding until it's they have to off 171 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,320 board somebody in the in a way that they aren't just choosing 172 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,760 themselves to leave, that they are being kind of pushed out 173 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,799 from by lack of a better phrase. So if these, if you're not 174 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:39,840 thinking about it beforehand, right, plans are going to be 175 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,039 haphazardly pulled together, the exiting employee is going to 176 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:46,240 feel like a number. Even if they didn't feel like a 177 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,640 number throughout their entire experience, that lasting 178 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,320 impression is going to make an impact on them as they're 179 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,600 exiting. It's going to dramatically hurt 180 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,200 the employer brand, which is this intrinsic thing that we 181 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,600 really don't know how to like quantify, but it really does 182 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,520 matter in the talent acquisition game. 183 00:09:01,560 --> 00:09:04,960 A lot of HR professionals know that there's also a higher 184 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,640 chance of lawsuits that are going to happen if you're not 185 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,840 thinking about this stuff strategically and thinking about 186 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,320 it proactively. And then obviously for those 187 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,800 that are left behind, there's this like survivor's guilt 188 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,480 that's going to happen, right? And so if it's not communicated 189 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,040 effectively, if it's not, if people don't feel as if they are 190 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,280 truly given that soft landing, it's going to have 191 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,760 ramifications, not just on the brand, not just on the 192 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,600 organization, and obviously on those people that are getting 193 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,320 let go, but for those that remain. 194 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,840 That's a big thing that a lot of people don't talk about the loss 195 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,360 of productivity that happens. I mean, there's a lot of 196 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,920 studies. There's actually just a a piece 197 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,120 that came out that talked about the cost of layoffs and 198 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,200 productivity being one of the main things. 199 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,440 That's a huge issue because if people don't feel like they're 200 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:50,800 secure, to your point, they're not going there. 201 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:52,480 They don't have trust in the organization. 202 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,600 So there has to be a plan also to rebuild trust, not just, hey, 203 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,200 we offer these people, hope they're fine, we're going to 204 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,200 send them on their merry way. All right, let's just get back 205 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,240 to business as normal. It doesn't really work like 206 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,280 that. And so being able to acknowledge 207 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,880 that that's going to be the reality and plan for it 208 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,160 proactively is just what we're talking about here. 209 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:12,800 You're not going to solve every problem. 210 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,640 There are going to be disgruntled employees. 211 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,880 There's going to be people that are they're going to have that 212 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,000 kind of break and trust. But there has to be a rebuild 213 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,800 plan in place and a plan to, you know, again, provide a soft 214 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,720 landing for those individuals. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 215 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,360 And you know, I'm thinking about all of the processes that I've 216 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,640 had to go through as an HR professional, you know, whether 217 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,560 it's conducting A layoff or having to figure out what that 218 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,360 off boarding looks like. I think to your point, there is 219 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,320 that cascading of information that is a huge part of the off 220 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,960 boarding process and there's also the operational side of the 221 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,640 off boarding process related to that person. 222 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,160 So it's like there's all and you kind of mentioned it in terms of 223 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,440 getting all of the plans in place. 224 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,160 But really it's when we think about that almost like 225 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,240 tactically for it's a lot of work, it's a lot of work. 226 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,760 This is a lot of work, not something that can be haphazard. 227 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,320 So I think that was the first thing that you said is that 228 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,400 without in off boarding it is a haphazard process and when you 229 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,080 have a haphazard process, you have so much business risk, 230 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,040 right, just so much. And so I think about, you know, 231 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,880 for those listening who maybe have not been exposed to off 232 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:28,040 boarding processes for the operational side of things, you 233 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,880 have to think about severance agreements and separation 234 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,080 agreements, severance amounts, I should say, and what the person, 235 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,760 where the person lives, what state requirements might apply 236 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,320 in terms of termination pay or final pay or bonuses. 237 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,040 Like all of that are all of those things are things that 238 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,200 have to really be thought about in advance. 239 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,960 And I know that they're going to be people who are maybe not in 240 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,640 HR or who are in HR and maybe a little skeptical who are going 241 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,920 to think, well, you know, if you're planning so far ahead, 242 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,160 like I should know, the person who's being laid off should know 243 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,680 as far in advance versus being told that same day or that same 244 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,120 week that that is the end of the road for them. 245 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,040 But I just think that that is potentially looking at things 246 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,720 with the, you know, rose colored glasses on because all of these 247 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,880 things are operational. They're things that do require 248 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,200 planning. They require time and 249 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,200 collaboration, most likely with like finance teams and other. 250 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,440 Legal teams. Legal teams, exactly. 251 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:35,400 And other people in the business and I, as much as it totally 252 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,240 sucks to have to either lead a layoff process or to be laid 253 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,520 off, there can't always be that abundance in terms of 254 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,880 transparency because especially because of all of those things 255 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,640 that you mentioned. Also in terms of cascading 256 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,000 information, imagine there's a, you know, potentially something 257 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,840 that falls into the category of a mass layoff and people are 258 00:12:57,840 --> 00:12:59,800 notified without all of the plans. 259 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,480 Like what does that do for those people? 260 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,600 Yeah, it makes sense. A more new panic, yeah. 261 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,680 Exactly, you're going to have spiraling people that are just 262 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,160 spiraling out of control. There's more business risk and 263 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,760 then the the individuals who remain on in the organization 264 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,040 and to your point feel potentially some survivors guilt 265 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,960 are probably starting to feel even more shaky in their 266 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,680 experiences so. Looking around, I mean, there's 267 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:25,080 a lot of things that happen and some of the questions that I 268 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,520 recommend HR leaders to think about. 269 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,680 And again, it's all about having this plan is like what kind of 270 00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,880 communication plan do we have? That one is like the most 271 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,280 important piece, how you communicate, what you 272 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,040 communicate to your point, like there is a difference between 273 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,040 transparency and oversharing. Like you can, you can be 274 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,360 transparent, but not overshare. And I definitely think there's a 275 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,600 fine line. And it's often hard for leaders 276 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,000 in general, not just HR leaders to find that fine line. 277 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,680 And honestly, it's a case by case basis. 278 00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:53,680 I can't tell you like this is the perfect script for that. 279 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:55,760 I wish I could tell you that there isn't one. 280 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,880 We've seen companies do it really great and some companies 281 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,320 where it didn't land as well. And So what how are we 282 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,920 communicating to employees that are being, you know, taken that 283 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,320 are going through the layoff process for those organization, 284 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,560 for those people that are going to be left behind for the 285 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:14,640 public, maybe shareholders, like how are we communicating this to 286 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,040 the public, right? And then what is that severance 287 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,360 going to look like? Are we going to offer out 288 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,640 placement? Obviously we're biased because 289 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,320 we're an out placement firm. We really recommend that because 290 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,880 it can provide that career transition services just to 291 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,880 provide them with that soft place to ask questions because 292 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,640 the job market has changed the digital space even the last five 293 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,320 years, it's changed so much. But also like what are we going 294 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:40,880 to offer in terms of benefits? How are we going to rebuild 295 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,520 trust? Like what's our plan of action 296 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,120 once that layoff is finalized? And we have to proceed like, 297 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,120 what are we going to do to rebuild trust? 298 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,040 Because we're going to have to. It's not a matter of if, it's a 299 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,080 matter of when you be rebuild trust. 300 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,760 So let's get a plan in place. Let's get some things in place 301 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,920 to make sure that we're making those people that are left 302 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,520 behind feel more secure. And if you have a lot of that 303 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,800 stuff in place, when a layoff comes, what feels like fast, 304 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,880 which it often does for some people, right, maybe they even 305 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,200 for senior HR leaders, it's like, oh, we're, we have to do 306 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,040 this now. And if there's not a plan in 307 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,480 place, having that contingency plan, it's just going to help 308 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,040 you hit the ground running a little bit easier and make sure 309 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:18,960 it's a little bit more smooth of a transition. 310 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,200 Totally agree. And this is a a huge mirror into 311 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,280 leadership at an organization too, in terms of how information 312 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,560 is cascaded, what that communication plan looks like. 313 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,480 And realistically communication plans once they're devised and 314 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,480 they prove to be well executed, they can just continue to be 315 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,560 used for anything that maybe is information that's either good, 316 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,480 bad or in between. It's, you know, pretty agnostic 317 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,360 in terms of what the communication is. 318 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,760 But for those who may not know or may not have ever used out 319 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,160 placement services, can you expand a little bit more on what 320 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,600 that is and what you do? Yeah, it's so funny. 321 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,720 I was at the HR tech conference at the time of this was like 322 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,000 about a month ago. And when I started telling 323 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,800 people about out placement that had no idea of what it was, 324 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:06,840 which I'm actually kind of surprised when I talked to an HR 325 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,040 leader that doesn't know what out placement is, they'll call 326 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,120 it outsourcing. I'm like very different, very 327 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,960 different thing. But they kept on referring to 328 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,400 the movie Up in the Air with George Clooney. 329 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,400 They're like, oh, you're George Clooney and up in the air. 330 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,920 I'm like, I am not the person delivering the layoff news, So 331 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,880 no, I am not him. Just for clarification. 332 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,480 But out placement really at the end of the day and how we 333 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:30,720 specifically look at out placement because there's a lot 334 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,560 of bigger big box firms that are out there and kind of respect 335 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,200 what they are pulling together. But what we really focus on is 336 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,080 how do we holistically serve that person who is now a 337 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,880 candidate and help them navigate the candidate marketplace, 338 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,040 taking back control, control of their career, building their 339 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,680 confidence back up and ultimately making sure that 340 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,040 their marketing materials are in place so that they can apply to 341 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,640 jobs effectively. They can interview for jobs 342 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,440 effectively and they feel good about themselves in the process. 343 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,920 Out placement services in my opinion, is really should be 344 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,400 utilized not just to give somebody a bunch of resume tips 345 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,480 and here's some jobs we're going to push to you. 346 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,520 You figure that part out. That's what a lot of out 347 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,960 placement firms are like. Unfortunately, nowadays how we 348 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,000 really look at it is how do we first rebuild your confidence 349 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,480 because it's going to affect everything else in the process, 350 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,200 right? So we provide everything from 351 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,599 the coaching piece to really helping somebody get clarity on 352 00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:30,800 what they want to do next, using this as a pivotal point in their 353 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,000 career, as a positive thing in their career. 354 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,760 We are very encouraging. It's a fun atmosphere. 355 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,200 We don't make it sad like, hey, you got laid off. 356 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,080 Here's some sad organization to go to. 357 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,080 Like we'd make it fun, right? And so try to do our best to 358 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,920 really uplift people as they're navigating what can be a 359 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,760 challenging, what is a challenging season. 360 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,000 It is proven that the top like tragedies in a personal life, 361 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,040 the most stressful moments in a person's life come down to death 362 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,400 of a loved one, divorce and losing their job. 363 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,280 That is it's a big one. And so we really take that 364 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,000 responsibility seriously of stewarding those people that are 365 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,160 exited and really try to make them alumni's of your 366 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,880 organization as best as we can as we're transitioning them. 367 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,040 That's fabulous. And it's also so important what 368 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,680 you said at the end there that they to make them as best as 369 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,840 possible alumni of the organization because you really 370 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,240 do. And I think we talked about this 371 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,960 the first time we spoke. You really do want people to go 372 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,680 out the way they came in. You want them to feel supported. 373 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,960 You want them to feel optimistic about the organization, 374 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,360 especially some people might be shareholders while they're 375 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,560 leaving organizations. Exactly. 376 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,240 Against their their will in some ways, right? 377 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,320 Like, so you, you want them to feel still connected to an 378 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,000 organization, even if there's negative emotion obviously 379 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,480 surrounding being laid off. And what you said also around 380 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,080 what you do in terms of being stewards for the organization, 381 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,640 excuse me, for those leading the organization, there is 382 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:03,320 potentially like a softer blow when someone hears that while 383 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,720 they are being laid off. And that is one of the most 384 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,320 stressful moments of their lives. 385 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,760 And I totally, totally can understand that, that then they 386 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:15,160 actually are not just being sent out into the cold, cruel world 387 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,120 figured out. They're being sent to almost 388 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:22,400 like a middle place, a middle ground that allows them to have 389 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,200 resources beyond that experience in that organization. 390 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,040 We're a good kind of purgatory. That's what I always say I was. 391 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,000 Thinking is we're. A good kind of purgatory, you 392 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,680 know, or yes, we are that middle ground and, and you know, I 393 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,120 think The thing is too is we really lead with the embassy and 394 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,520 I'm a person who has been affected by a layoff before. 395 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,080 Thankfully, I had an organization that was very 396 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,840 generous as they were letting me go. 397 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,280 And at the same time though, and, and I also wanted to leave 398 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,040 the organization. I was going off to do my own 399 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,960 thing to build something. And it still was a huge blow to 400 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,000 me personally, even though I was planning to leave. 401 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,800 And even though they were super generous, but I still have 402 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,120 really good feelings towards that organization because they 403 00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:05,480 were generous and towards the leaders, because I know 404 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,440 sometimes layoffs have to happen, right? 405 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,840 They have to happen. And HR is not always the bad 406 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,200 person in that process, right? Most of the time, you're not. 407 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,080 Yeah, it's not your fault that you're having to go through this 408 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,520 layoff. You just get to do The Dirty 409 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,400 work, unfortunately. And so we really take that 410 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,920 because I am a practitioner first, because I was somebody 411 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,000 who is affected by a layoff. I know those feelings of shame. 412 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,360 I know those feelings of am I actually really good at what I'm 413 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:33,600 doing? Even though they told me I'm 414 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,280 really good and they said this has nothing to do with my 415 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,640 performance, I still feel like, well, why did my friend not get 416 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,000 let go right? So the very real emotions that 417 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,360 somebody's going through or like, Oh my gosh, everyone's 418 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:44,880 saying that the job market is terrible. 419 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,040 I'm going to, it's going to take me forever to find a job. 420 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,800 Like those talk tracks really make a difference. 421 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,480 And after doing practitioner work for over a, you know, a 422 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,760 decade of working with people one-on-one, those talk tracks 423 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,560 really make a difference in somebody's ability to stay 424 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,520 resilient through the process, which is necessary no matter 425 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,280 what market we're in. But also it really effects what 426 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,080 jobs they apply for, what they go for, if they negotiate their 427 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,880 salary, if they interview well, right? 428 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,080 A lot of people haven't interviewed in maybe five years 429 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,960 or even 2 years. Like you're rusty and you don't 430 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,360 need a lack of confidence to ruin your chances of landing the 431 00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:21,160 job. So we kind of, we spiff up 432 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,200 somebody. We always say we're like we, we 433 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,400 just give you an ultimate makeover in your career. 434 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,080 Yeah, I love that. It's, it's really so true. 435 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,040 I work with clients on resumes and career coaching, interview 436 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,040 prep and stuff like that. And it comes up so often that 437 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,440 people have, you know, they could be at executive level and 438 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,120 they haven't interviewed in like 15 years and they don't even 439 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,680 know where to start. And your resumes haven't even 440 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,400 been touched. And you're like, you know, 441 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,520 dusting off the cobwebs basically. 442 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,120 And it really, it's such a skill. 443 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,120 And when you don't use that skill, it becomes a little rusty 444 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:56,840 and you have to, kind of like the Tin Man, oil up the joints 445 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,640 so that you can get moving again. 446 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,160 Yeah, nobody uses utilizes that skill set. 447 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,680 I utilize that skill set every day. 448 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,000 So I'm used to it and it's easy peasy for me, right. 449 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,440 If I had to find a job for whatever reason, I could find a 450 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,640 job really quickly because I use those skills all the time. 451 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,920 It is insane for a company to think that, oh, they can just 452 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,720 figure it out because it's not that easy to just figure it out, 453 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,240 especially in the digital world that we live in. 454 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,720 And like, should I have a how robust should my LinkedIn 455 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:24,920 profile be? How much information? 456 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,560 I mean, all the logistical questions were a soft place to 457 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,400 answer those. And no stupid question. 458 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,760 There's no stupid question, right, because you don't 459 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,080 practice it. It's not your fault that you 460 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:34,760 don't know that, and it's also not your fault your college 461 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,520 never taught you. So like we, you know, put an 462 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,120 aside there in but it but we really help make sure that that 463 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:44,360 person feels equipped because it really does make a difference. 464 00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:47,760 So I would really encourage an HR leader to push for that 465 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,520 within their their, you know, the team that's involved with 466 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,720 deciding what that those packages look like. 467 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,320 And I would also say that when choosing an out placement 468 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,200 provider, make sure that they really have one really great 469 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,320 strategist coaches that know what's up and that aren't 470 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,680 antiquated with their strategies. 471 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,720 There's a lot of firms out there that provide antiquated 472 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,840 strategies that there is some personalization involved and 473 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,400 that the person isn't just getting like shoved to the side, 474 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,240 but they actually don't they don't feel like a number that 475 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,960 that that that placement firm actually makes them feel seen 476 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,440 and unknown. Yeah, I can imagine that that is 477 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,480 extremely critical considering you're going from such an 478 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,520 impactful moments in their lives to then wanting to feel 479 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,000 supported and seen and heard and all those things. 480 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,720 It don't just check a box. It's better for you to use that 481 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,680 money if you're just checking a box, use that money towards 482 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,640 their severance, like their severance, honestly. 483 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,080 But if you're really trying to be intentional with finding a 484 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,880 provider that's going to make sure that they feel supported 485 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,600 throughout, that is something that's that's worthy of 486 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,200 investing in. Yeah, I'm glad you bring up this 487 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:54,880 point too, because we've talked a lot about what it is like and 488 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,600 the importance also of going through these layoff processes 489 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,440 and making sure that they're really thoughtful and that we, 490 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,360 you know, that dignity is at the core of all of this. 491 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,640 And then as you've just mentioned, there's also this 492 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,320 tactical piece for HR leaders in leveraging different, I don't 493 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,080 want to call them perks, but basically providers that that do 494 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:23,600 support exiting employees with what I guess we could categorize 495 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,040 as a benefit to their exit and that is like an out placement 496 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,920 service. And so for those listening 497 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,480 effectively, what they would need to do is really think about 498 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,720 all of their benefits and their full benefits package from start 499 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,440 to finish in the employee life cycle. 500 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,120 And so that then when they have a layoff process, because every 501 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,440 organization at some point goes through some sort of layoff 502 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,800 process, it's kind of inevitable then they have already thought 503 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,040 about what their resources and what their extended benefits 504 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,400 will be for those individuals. So you I I guess it would be 505 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,680 safe to say that you would recommend that they think about 506 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,680 that before. Absolutely, yeah. 507 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,880 Because you want to be thoughtful in your vetting and 508 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,280 not just use perhaps who you've always, always used, which I 509 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,320 think a lot of companies do. And that's fine. 510 00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:13,420 But I would use it as an encouragement to like re 511 00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:15,360 evaluate who your provider is and what they're really 512 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,400 providing for those, for those exiting employees. 513 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,120 And are they truly making them alums of your organization or 514 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,360 are they just kind of giving them a bunch of resume tips and 515 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:24,600 like sending them on their merry way? 516 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,560 There's a difference, right? There's a difference in kind of 517 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,960 thinking about the person in that way. 518 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:31,960 Right. That totally makes sense. 519 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,680 And I think just to kind of come back to one of the other things 520 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,560 that we mentioned at the top of the podcast, which is what to do 521 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,600 when the rest of the organization may feel survivors 522 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,600 guilt. How would you recommend leaders, 523 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,520 whether they're in HR or not, navigate this common feeling 524 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,000 amongst employees that are retained and remain in the 525 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,320 organization? And what is the best way for 526 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,200 kind of dealing with and approaching that situation? 527 00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,000 Yeah, there's no one, right? one-size-fits-all. 528 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,480 I think it really depends on how, again, what was your 529 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,960 communication plan like what? What are we trying to remedy 530 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,360 here? Right, right. 531 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,120 Right. There's different levels of 532 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:13,800 trust that we have to rebuild depending on how well it's 533 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,800 planned out. But what I would say in general 534 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,280 that I've seen work for organizations and again, you're 535 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,520 going to have some rockiness. It's going to happen. 536 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,120 So there's no way to fully solve for it and be like, if we do 537 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:28,120 these XYZ three things, then your organization's going to be 538 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:29,240 fine. Everyone's going to be happy to 539 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,200 go lucky and you're going to lose. 540 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,280 No product like that is illogical and it's not human, 541 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,960 right? We're in human resources, so 542 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,640 that is not human because we have emotions. 543 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,000 And so I think providing space for people to have those 544 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,360 emotions, for having channels of communication up and down, for 545 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:48,360 people to really for the leaders to really be honest about their 546 00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:49,760 mistakes. This is it's kind of like 547 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,320 parenting, right? So I have a daughter. 548 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,440 She's 2020 months old. I have another one on the way. 549 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,520 And thank you. Yeah. 550 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,760 And I'm thinking about when she's a teenager, if I am not 551 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,720 modeling for her what it looks like to apologize, how can I 552 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,640 expect her to show, you know what I'm saying? 553 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,240 So like with leaders, it's taking ownership of what your 554 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,080 responsibility was and why this is happening. 555 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,680 What could because at the end of the day, even if economic 556 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,840 climates, whatever, the people at the top still have some of 557 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,040 that responsibility and should own that. 558 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,840 Be honest about that. A great example of somebody who 559 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,880 did this was during 2020 and it was actually Airbnb. 560 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,120 Now, I don't know how Airbnb has handled layoffs post that, but 561 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,080 but you know, people can have their opinions. 562 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,520 But for this specific one, the the leader wrote a really 563 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,760 beautiful letter to the employees, wrote a really 564 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,480 beautiful letter to the public and explained what he went wrong 565 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,120 and where the leadership went wrong and what they're doing to 566 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:50,760 kind of remedy that for the future. 567 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:52,960 They just put some great plans in place. 568 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,640 So like the ownership piece, right, I think is super, super 569 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,400 important during this season. So that's the first thing for 570 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,120 leaders. Now you as an HR person can 571 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,200 recommend that to the senior leadership. 572 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,000 They have to really own that for themselves. 573 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,160 But that is like the first step is owning leaders, leaders to 574 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,040 own their mistakes in the process. 575 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,240 The second thing that I would say is again, that communication 576 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,840 up and down, providing opportunities for people to 577 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,120 express their emotions that they're going to naturally feel. 578 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,840 And then I would also say some team building that happens 579 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,920 between, especially between C-Suite leadership that kind of 580 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,840 really made the decision and that middle management, because 581 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,160 if the middle management is feeling rocky, their teams are 582 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,880 going to feel rocky, which means your whole company is going to 583 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,840 feel rocky. And so there needs to be some 584 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,800 sort of either workshops done or communication plans in place, 585 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,200 like really, really trying to bridge the gap between senior 586 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:47,520 leadership and middle management. 587 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,080 I think it's a really great strategy. 588 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,040 We do workshops around that to help companies post layoff with 589 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,880 that exact thing. But that's something to really 590 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,680 consider. And then generally speaking, I'd 591 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,120 say the other part of it is really like, how do we rebuild 592 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,800 culture? So going back to those core 593 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,840 values that we talked about the very beginning, how are we, how 594 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,200 can we put some fun things in place to bring some levity to 595 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,360 the mood to thank the people that are left behind to 596 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,880 encourage them that their jobs are safe, which hopefully, 597 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,360 hopefully they are and which we don't know, right, They might 598 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,200 be, they might not be. But still to provide that 599 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,320 encouragement that hey, if this does happen, this is how we 600 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,960 handled it. We believe this is a really 601 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,640 great strategy that we did use. We did think thoughtfully about 602 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,560 it didn't just happen like happenstance. 603 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,560 And then just to provide those opportunities for people to 604 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,920 rebuild their culture in the way that they would if they were 605 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,720 starting over new. It's kind of like a new company 606 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,280 happens every time a layoff happens. 607 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,960 So acknowledging that and rebuilding the culture from the 608 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,720 ground up is something that needs to be thought about. 609 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,440 Yeah, I think that's awesome and super appreciate you going 610 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,080 through some of these like tactical tangible things that 611 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,400 leaders can really think about. Because as we discussed at the 612 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,120 top of this, it is kind of a time for a lot of change and a 613 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,960 lot of worry and fear of the unknown. 614 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,760 I mean, we're if we're upon the election in a few weeks. 615 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,520 And so this, I just feel like every four years this comes up. 616 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,280 It's like even though layoffs happen throughout the year and 617 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,440 of course, pretty much on the regular, this, we know that 618 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,080 there are things at a macro level that do affect the way 619 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,840 that people feel at work and the level of security that they feel 620 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,440 at work. So all of those things that 621 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,400 you've talked about and all of those realities in terms of how 622 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,560 leaders need to plan appropriately and responsibly to 623 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:40,520 make this process as effective and dignified as possible is so 624 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,240 important. So thank you so much for walking 625 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,760 us through that and giving us all of your expert insights and 626 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,040 tips and all of that. And so I guess I'll we'll close 627 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,320 with allowing the listeners to understand where they can learn 628 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,480 more about you and your company and how they can hopefully get 629 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,680 connected if they're interested in bringing out placement 630 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,800 services of yours to their own company. 631 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,920 Yeah. So the best places is one our 632 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,080 website, recruitthemployer.com and then also my personal I 633 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,520 would love to meet you if you're a listener of this and you feel 634 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,880 even just if you're like that made me think that would be a 635 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,000 fine response. Not like, Hey, what should set 636 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,360 up a call and I need your out placement services just like, 637 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,400 Hey, that made me think. If you want to reach out to me 638 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,560 on LinkedIn, you can find me at Jenna Viviano Dune. 639 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,520 I live there, I breathe there. I doom scroll there, right? 640 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,200 So I am, I am there all the time and would love to meet you and 641 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,600 just encourage you also as an HR leader, because your job's hard 642 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,920 and your job's been really hard for the past couple of years, 643 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,800 honestly, since COVID. And so just to send you some 644 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,600 encouragement as well that you know, there will be good news. 645 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,240 And in case there's bad news, we're here to help. 646 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,000 Jenna, thank you so much again for your time and all of your 647 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,400 expert knowledge on this topic. Thanks for having me Tracy, love 648 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,000 being here. Hey, just before you go, don't 649 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,040 forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the. 1st to hear 650 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,760 when an. Episode drops each week. 651 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:02,960 And maybe leave a five star review. 652 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,160 And a comment about how much you loved this episode. 653 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,960 Plus if you have. Someone in mind? 654 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,320 Who would really enjoy this episode? 655 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:09,600 Make sure you share it with them. 656 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,480 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll. 657 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,480 See you next week.