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That's quickbooks.com/payroll. Welcome to the Bringing the
Human Back to Human Resources podcast.
I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've spent my entire professional
career in HR. Each week, we'll explore the
delicate balance between people and business with the aim to
reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes.
Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the
status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about
our mission to bring the human back to human resources.
Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast.
Thank you so much for being here for another week.
I made a joke right before we started recording, so that's why
I'm smiling so big. But also, I'm really excited
that we have Doctor Greg Giuliano on the podcast.
Did I pronounce your name correctly, Greg?
Doctor, you did all right. Get a.
Gold Star. Thank you, but the listeners are
probably so tired of hearing me say I'm really excited about my
guest. But The thing is, you know, we
went through this process when I bring a guest on, it's not just
bringing you on cold. Like, you know, we've vet the
topics we talk through. You know what, what could be
interesting for the listeners. So I am truly excited about
every topic that we talk about on this podcast, but especially
this one because it's all about leadership and change and all of
the good stuff, but from a very specific point of view.
So let me introduce you to Doctor Greg Giuliano.
As I've already teased, he is an advisor and executive coach to
senior leaders and teams all all over the world.
He is the founder of GA Ultra Leadership, designing leadership
and team development strategies that Dr. organizational
transformation. His mission is to help leaders
and teams grow their capacity to enable positive disruption for
markets, organizations, teams and individuals.
Greg is the author of three number one Amazon bestsellers,
Coaching for a Change, The Next Normal and Ultra Leadership, as
well as The Heroes Journey. You can find Greg on LinkedIn.
We'll link everything in the show notes as well as where you
can find his books. And you can also find him on the
Ultra Leadership YouTube channel and at ultraleadership.com.
So, Greg, thank you so much for being here.
I'm really, really excited to dive into especially your most
recent book, Coaching for a Change.
But before we get into that, why don't you tell us all how this
interest and how this passion started for you?
Absolutely. And thank you very much for
having me. I'm really looking forward to
the I'm as excited about the conversation as you are.
Nice. You know, I'm one of those lucky
people who finally found my way to doing what I love.
You know, in kindergarten we're taught to work and play well
with others. And I have to, you know, Full
disclosure, my citizenship grade when I was in, you know,
kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade wasn't too great.
I wasn't great at working and playing well with others, much
to my parents chagrin. But that's kind of actually
become my life's work. I started out in education and
then I, I went into private. I did my doctorate in
psychology. It was in private practice for a
while and then found out about a new field of executive coaching
and then leader. And then through that, found out
about leadership development and made the jump full, you know,
into that world full time. And I, and I did that.
And I, you and I were talking the other day because I
appreciate the starting point much more.
It's, it made me, it made me feel better.
The starting point for therapy is something is wrong, broken.
And you know, can you fix it? Can you fix my spouse?
Can you fix my kid? Can you fix this relationship?
Right? So it's all about fixing and in
it with coaching, it's not about fixing.
You're doing great. You just want to do better.
And, and so I just, I love the starting point and I love that
work. And so that's, that's been my
journey. It's been a privilege for almost
30 years now. I, I, you know, I'm kind of a
Sherpa and go along with people as the and teams as they're on a
journey to better themselves. I love that.
And I think what's really cool is that you have this background
that is, it enables you really to actually think about how
people think and know how people think or why they might think
that way. And that you're, you're not
taking a, you know, almost like a segregated approach to
people's minds and mindsets. For example, it's easy for us to
say this leader, you know, they totally suck and they're mean
and they're angry all the time and they're confrontational and
they fight with everyone. But for someone with your
background, you're probably thinking, well, what was their
upbringing like? You know, these are their coping
skills with certain things. Why are they confrontational?
Like all of these things that I obviously am not qualified to to
go into, but it, it, it does for me help me to, to realize that
you are looking at leadership with an extra layer because
everyone reacts to their environments, not just because
of how they experience their careers or if they're happy and
their jobs are not so much more than that.
We know that there is literally no possibility of separating who
we are from the way that we are at work.
So I think that that's really interesting that you have that
background. Yeah, I mean, I and I bring a
bunch of it, you know, not explicitly, you know, because,
you know, coaching and therapy aren't the same thing.
But I learned a lot of lessons as a, as a therapist that, you
know, I, I, I bring one of the things that I bring into my work
and I remind folks, and you mentioned that sometimes you
might be, there might be a leader who's, you know, you
know, a bully or just, you know, not not optimal, you know, and,
and there's a, there's a model from the late 60s transactional
psychoanalysis called the drama triangle, where, you know, and
we tell stories to make meaning of our, of our lives and stories
have characters. And so a story like you were
just sharing, you know, we tell these stories at work all the
time. That leader's a jerk.
That team is hard to work with. That process is, you know,
terrible. And it's really all, you know,
So we're telling a story and that person or that team or that
process becomes the villain in our story.
And we grab somebody in the hallway or we text somebody
after, after the meeting and we, and we complain to them, we vent
to them. That leader's a jerk.
That team is, you know, God, I hate dealing with the finance
team. They're all right.
You know, that HR process. I'm just kids ruining my life.
And that person we've asked, we're asking them to play the
hero for us and make us feel better and, and agree with us.
And, and, and when we do that, the only character left by
default is the victim. And we make ourselves the
victims in our own stories. And what I found is that even
the people that we label the biggest villain in the company,
they're telling themselves a victim story.
They act that way because they feel victimized.
And So what I try to tell people is, you know, we can't lead if
we're in one of those corners. So how do we get ourselves out
of that corner? And by the way, you are not a
victim. So, yeah, that just happened.
Let's vent for a couple of minutes.
Let's get it all out. It's like, OK, it's all out now.
OK, so you are not a victim. What's in your control and what
do you want to do? Because at the end of the day,
even the biggest villain in your company, they're not really a
villain. They're just a person who's
very, very different than you are, period.
What do you want to do about that?
Right. Well, this, this is something
that people probably logically understand.
Oh, everyone's a human. Everyone.
You know, people have good intentions 99.9% of the time.
And yet that never registers in the moment.
And something that I actually recently have imparted on in my
own practice as an individual in a high pressured job with, you
know, multiple stress points is that I'm allowed to complain or
vent about something for a certain period of time.
It's a short period of time. Otherwise my husband would
probably be my ex-husband because he wouldn't be able to
stand. Just kidding.
But it's like, you know, I give myself, OK, I'm going to, if
it's at 4:00 that I start venting, then by 6:00 PM I've
got to be done. And when when I think about
that, what it's allowed me to do is remember that like most of
the time, the things that are bothering us are really not that
big of a deal. And especially when we're not
like saving lives. Maybe some people are, but we're
not saving lives and we're not like saving the world.
And we're probably just like processing our own or executing
on our own jobs. And while important, it's not
necessarily something that is earth shattering, which again,
for some people, maybe it is. But nevertheless, I, I say that
because I, I'll share candidly. I used to really dwell on like
as, and I'm a very positive person by the way, but I used to
dwell on things that made me feel like I was out of, you
know, not in control of like my own role or my own future at a
company. Or if someone, you know, didn't
agree with me or they gave me feedback that was like, not even
harsh, but like mean, you know, 'cause everyone kind of can
encounter that at some point. But I used to dwell on those
things that then ultimately led to, yes, to your point, this
victim mentality. And then further, you kind of
ostracize yourself from the organization and you're putting
you, you resent the people around you, you resent the
company and you end up either leaving or you figure out how
to, to overcome that. And so when I think about what
you've shared as far as you know, people are just, everyone
is flawed at some level. And we're talking about people
who are just people at the end of the day.
That's something that over time, I as an individual have learned,
even though I know this, like logically, we all know this.
But I'm curious if you have ideas for how someone can,
instead of learning the hard way, can actually like impart on
themselves strategies to just take a step back.
Maybe do something like what I do where it's they they give
themselves a time limit for their complaining and then
effectively enable themselves to just move on and reset their
mindset. Yeah, I mean, your strategy is a
good one, right? It's creating space between the
what the stimulus, right? What, what triggered you and,
and, and your response, right. So when we have a knee jerk, you
know, if it's immediate, it's probably just emotional
reactivity, right? They triggered a negative
emotion in US and that emotion is driving my decision making of
what am I going to do next? And what you're doing is a great
strategy is, you know, it's even, it's as simple as counting
to five, you know, and breathing before I, I think about, OK, now
what am I going to do? And so just creating that kind
of space to allow you to regulate your response to that
emotion that is welling up in you because somebody's behavior,
you know, crossed the boundary with you.
It you know, it doesn't. It's, it's counter to how you
would show up. And so you you got to give
yourself permission to allow it. Yeah, Yeah.
I mean, yeah, I got triggered. I'm upset because of what you
said or what you did. And so now I, I want to bring
myself back to center and calm myself down and then think
about, OK, not a victim. I have agency.
What do I want to do right? Because you know, what's the
boundary that is it Do I need to do something or do I need to
just let it go by like a cloud in the sky, right?
Because maybe it did it. Maybe they don't even they're
not even aware that what they said or did you know, 'cause
that reaction in me, they might not even know that they've done
that. And the danger is if we don't do
what you're doing is create is have that strategy of calming
myself and thinking before I say something or do something.
The danger is I'm going to I'm going to engage in a behavior
that someone else is going to go home and tell their story and
I'm the villain in their story. Right, right.
Because I behaved badly, because I was triggered by something.
So we end up in this dynamic of villain victim, you know, all
the time. You know, the if I don't like
the finance team, I'm going to be hard to work with with the
finance team and they're going to tell a story about, you know,
Greg, you know who? God, that guy Greg, he's just
really hard to work with. He doesn't understand how we
were. So we end up being somebody
else's villain. So what you're doing is a
beautiful strategy of OK, yeah, I know that happened, right.
I used to say to went to my coach, I'd, I'd, I'd vent and
he'd say, are you OK? Yeah.
Well, that just happened. What do you want to do about it?
Right. You you can go kill him, but
you'll probably get arrested or get fired.
Right. So you've all cut.
You can do anything you want. You're a grown up.
You can do anything you want. But what consequence are you
willing to accept? What's the outcome you're
looking for? And it just reminds me, OK,
yeah, I have agency here. What do I want to do?
Sometimes it's something, sometimes it's nothing.
Just let it go. Totally letting it go is
actually a very powerful thing. You think like in the moment
when you're you're in that like emotional state, you're like,
there's no way I'm letting this go.
I'll never let this go. They sent me an e-mail with AK
and a period after it. You know, it's like the how can
they do that? They're so rude.
You know, it's like things that are otherwise like so totally
insane that it really don't when you actually walk away from it,
you're like, Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
I totally let it go. This is like, I suppose similar
to the sage advice that many people give, which is never send
an e-mail when you're angry and or, or never reply to an e-mail
that makes you angry and walk away for 24 hours.
It's not that big of a deal. I have made the mistake of not
listening to myself on those things.
And I, you know, doesn't matter how much of a professional you
are, you when you're angry, your words can be cutting and they
don't necessarily communicate what you're looking to
communicate. And frankly, when you respond to
things, when you are in that heightened state of emotion,
you're angry, whatever it is. You actually, I don't know if
you're like me, you probably didn't even fully read the
thing. And then you're not even
answering the question that's being asked.
This is like my own truth serum this episode here.
But you know, The thing is like we all, we've all done it and
we'll all do it at some point. And no matter how much we've
learned, we'll probably can, you know, make a mistake maybe once
or twice. You can slip up a little bit.
But one of the things that I really like that you said is you
use the you use the term agency. And when I think about this, you
know, decision to step away or decision to give yourself time
and space, as we've talked about, you are taking back the
feeling of control that you've you ultimately feel you're
relinquishing. Because to me, and when you talk
about the victim villain kind of dichotomy, there is a, a piece
of the, the villainizing that we do with these stories where we
probably feel a lack of control or we feel like we are out of
control, that we don't have, you know, the ability to make our
own decisions or have our own, you know, have our own agency
over things. When in reality, walking away,
figuring out what exactly it is that you need in that moment is
probably the best way to articulate the control for
yourself that you still have. And the agency is really the
probably the perfect term. And one of the things that you
and I had spoken about the other day was how leaders in recent
months, years have potentially like reverted back.
Not all leaders, but some leaders have potentially
reverted back to this high control, like super hands on,
potentially even micromanaging type of strategy when it comes
to their leadership. We see this, for example, and
companies saying you have to come back to the office full
time when people have been working remotely for the last
five years or things like, oh, you can't take, you know, you,
you can't take PTO for that particular day because you know,
we need you in the office, even though it's like, what's the big
deal with one day? Like we see small things like
that that actually have big impacts on people.
So I'm curious what your thoughts on on the leadership
element to that what what your thoughts are there?
Yeah, I mean, I think we've been on a tremendous journey to as,
as, as the metaphor of the organization as a machine has
die as died off and it can't go away fast enough in my view to
the organ. The organization is a bunch of
people, you know, with a, with a share with, you know, shared
objectives. Here's what we're trying to
achieve in this organization. And, and so if, if the, if the
organization is a machine, my job as a manager is to make sure
that my parts of the machine are as efficient and effective as
possible. If I see my team as a group of
people, a group of humans who are working together to achieve
something, then my role is very different as as a leader.
And so we're seeing as we're, we think more about the customer
and the brand experience we're trying to create.
What's the employee experience that we can create that that,
you know, creates that positive customer experience that results
in an awesome brand experience in the marketplace.
So when we if we if we reframe it like that, then the the old
school, you know, organization is machine command and control,
traditional hierarchy that that's giving way and and it's
it's been happening. And what I'm what I'm concerned
about in in the last six months is as.
People and organizations and markets are, you know, there's a
lot more uncertainty and volatility in the system that
there's a, a reversion to, you know, OK, we need to command
this organization and we need to control it.
And, and I don't want to see that.
I think that's AI think it's a bad idea because our workforce
today, especially on the other side of the, the pandemic,
you're right, people are used to, you know, we, we had to give
up command and control because we sent everybody home.
And so we've started thinking about outcomes and productivity
more than time, you know, time and you're in your cubicle.
And I and I want to see a stay in that, even if we are, you
know, working, if we moved back to hybrid that some
organizations are, you know, can you, if you're, can you be
available, you know, to the team and to our internal partners?
So how does that, what does it look like when you bring people
back? But I, I hope we don't go back
to it. And I think if we try to, it's,
it's, it's dangerous and, and not dangerous, but it's just
the, it's just the wrong move because the workforce today, you
know, especially younger folks, we've got a taste of feeling
empowered and a sense of autonomy and, and a sense of
trust that you're going to, you're going to contribute and
you're going to follow through and you're going to be
productive and you're going to, you know, you know, be a, a
strong part of the team and do your work.
I don't need to watch you all the time.
And so I, I want to see leaders accelerate that shift from old
school managing and, and really micromanaging to coaching and
empowering people to see what we're trying to achieve together
as a team and say, this is my part.
I got this. And if I need something, I, if I
need coaching from you, I will ask you.
And that leaders are OK with that, that they see that that's
their role to serve the team and be a be a coach to these
talented people that you've brought in and and if asked to
work together. Yeah, it's really a fairpoint.
You know what I think about what you've shared too with regard to
command and control versus people feeling empowered.
It does feel antithetical when when there's someone exerting
this command and control philosophy or belief system in
terms of their leadership style. And then inevitably there's
really no chance for someone to feel empowered, autonomous, or,
you know, self motivated, right? Because it's like, well, this
person is just going to tell me what to do and what they need
from me and so I don't have to think.
It's it's the opposite. It's disengaging, it's
disempowering, and people end up doing as as just enough to not
get dinged. Right, right.
Oh, that sounds like a miserable way to guide A-Team.
I mean, I couldn't imagine having a, you know, especially
if we think about this top down. If this is something that a CEO
is doing or a board of directors is doing, and then CFO and then
directors and managers, you just have a team of people who aren't
innovating because they're not thinking for themselves.
They're not contributing because they don't care because who care
who, who wants to care in an environment like that?
And then you have leaders who, who, depending on how high that
type of philosophy goes in the ranks, who are probably being
rewarded that for that type of behavior.
And then it creates the kind of the cycle of employees kind of
at the the quote, UN quote, bottom of the chain, who see
what it takes to be successful at an organization in that type
of organization, let's say, where there is this command and
control philosophy taking over. And then you have a group of
people who then model that and embody it.
And then you have future organizations that don't
transform what it means to be, you know, an organization that
empowers people. There's just no way it happens.
People, companies fall victim to that type of mentality very
often. Yeah.
You know, so in that, in that that kind of a traditional
command and control organization, everybody is
working to make sure that the CEO and the leadership team are
as anxiety free as possible. Everything is about making them
feel better, that they don't have to worry about anything.
I think we need to flip that. I think that the, the, that
leadership is, is there to serve the people who are doing the
work. And so creating the conditions
that make it easy for people to engage and people don't engage
the organization. When we survey, you know, we do
employee engagement surveys, people don't engage the
organization, they engage their work and they engage the people
that they work with. And so are we creating the
conditions that make it easy for them to engage their work and
easy for them to engage one another?
And when we do that, OK, then that's empowering, OK.
We create the conditions that people feel empowered that they
have not just responsibility, We're not, they're not just
hands on an assembly line, but you want their brains and you
want their hearts. So they're empowered to shape
their work and make decisions. And they have not just
responsibility, but authority for what?
For their contribution and how they go about doing that and
that that's how you unlock people and and and activate
them. Totally, totally.
I'm curious, have you ever encountered a leader who is kind
of leading with this command and control mindset or methodology,
thinking that they don't like, where they think that they're
empowering and engaging people, but actually they're just
commanding and controlling? Yeah, 'cause they're really
nice, right? They're really, you know,
they're, you know, they're, you know, they're, they're nice to
people. And so they're, they're, they're
not like barking at people, but I'm really nice to my people.
I, you know, I, you know, I know when their birthdays are and,
you know, and, and that, that kind of stuff, but they're still
just telling people what to do all the time.
And so, yeah, I had, I had a a person who I was coaching, who
he's every year and, and throughout the year, he just
told people what to do. It's like, here are your goals
for the year and here's what I want you working on, and here's
how I want you to do it. And, and it's just, and we
talked about it and I said, you know, so do you like being told
what to do? Because no, I hate being told
what to do. He said, yeah, everybody does.
Nobody likes being told what to do.
And all you do is tell you very talented people.
And do you do you trust that they know what to do?
Says, well, yeah, of course I trust them.
Well, then stop. Stop laying it out for them.
Oh, OK. So what should we do?
And so we flipped it. It's like, you know, what's the
North Star And invite them to tell you.
Here's, you know, here are my goals for the year.
They let them do the first draft, right?
Stop doing the first draft that a lot of leaders that I coach,
that's the, that's one of the first things I tell them is that
you are doing the first draft of everything.
You are not an individual contributor.
Stop doing the first draft. Let your people take the lead.
And then you can coach them to fine tune and make sure that
that they're focused on the right work and that they're
partnering with the right people, right?
So you become a mentor and a coach and a guide versus the guy
or the the woman who's just saying this is it.
Do this and do it this way. You got a bunch of mini me's,
any of it, and it's a bunch of baby birds, right?
You end up with a team of baby birds.
They're just waiting for you to feed them all the time.
Oh my God, how laborious that would be to be the Mama bird in
that circumstance. It's.
Exhausting. Yeah, well, he's complaining,
Greg, I don't have any time to think about things.
It's like, no, because you're doing the work of your team.
So really that we don't really, you know, you're, you're,
you're, you're overpaid for what you're doing because you're
doing the work of people one or two levels below you all the
time. Stop it.
Yeah, so interesting. I, it makes me think about
leaders that I have had who, or who have had, who are either on
the command and control side or the, you know, the, the really
like lead by example servant leadership style, which
obviously is the better style if you ask me.
Of course, as we're talking about here.
And it's interesting because most of the command and control
leaders that I've encountered, whether they've been my own or
I've had to kind of upskill them to move away from that type of
leadership style, they generally are very nice.
You're right there. It's interesting because there,
it's not like everyone is truly a villain and they just want to
tell everyone what to do. It's there's this almost
misguided effort that they want people to do great job.
Maybe they think at some level that they are servant leaders
because they're doing so much for their team.
But their teams are like, my leader does not trust me.
My leader doesn't even let me. Do you know something that I'm
highly qualified to be able to do?
And then at that point, they're just, they're probably more so
disengaged than anything because most people want to prove their
worth and they want to be able to take away from their
experiences, new learnings, new opportunities, new initiatives,
and then ultimately add it to their resume for a future role.
And when you're not actively doing or thinking on your own,
you're not really learning. Yeah, at all.
I mean, I talk about this in, in the new book that that that
micromanagement in my view is really just my anxiety is
driving my decision making. My, you know, I'm microman.
If I'm micromanaging my team, it's not because I don't trust
them, it's because my anxiety won't let me not micromanage
them. I need to know all that stuff.
I need to write it. So I just, I'm always in their
stuff. And so it if so, we try to how
do we break that habit and, and, and, and start, you know, and
that's the title of the new book is Coaching for a change and the
A's in parentheses because it has a double meaning.
Coaching for change. We're trying to help somebody
want to change or trying to help A-Team change or an organization
change. And we're trying to coach them
to change something or, and it's also, I want leaders to stop
telling people what to do and try coaching for a change.
You know, if you really want to engage people, you know, I love
being coached. I don't like being told what to
do. And, and, and I think that
everybody's I, I, you know, I think almost everybody is like
that. And so how do we help managers
make that shift from managing and God forbid, micromanaging to
coaching people and trusting them to, you know, help them
engage their work and their and their peers and feel empowered
to shape their work and then activated to go out and get it
done? Yeah, this point that you've
made, which really calls on the title of your book, Coaching for
a Change. Why don't leaders try coaching
for a Change is what you said. This, it brings me back to my I
was very fortunate that I worked for Target in my very first
experience out of college because they have a really
wonderful culture of teaching coaching for leaders and they,
they spend a lot of time helping to really on board an up skill
leaders, whether new or tenured to, to be able to effectively
coach and everything at Target was like have a coaching
conversation. And the idea was that you would
go into that conversation just asking questions.
Well, what led you to to this decision?
Why did you decide to do this instead of whether someone stole
from the sore or whether you were, you know, interviewing
them, you know, preparing them for their next opportunity and
you were doing like a mock interview like every from from a
bad situation to a great situation.
Coaching was really at the forefront of the the leadership
experience. And so I learned very early on
that coaching and having coaching style conversations
where you're really leading with this question based approach,
you get first of all, you get so much more information, people
open up, they feel more safe and you effectively get that person
to their answer without having to tell them.
So now they've they're bought into you as a leader because
they're like, Oh my, my manager actually cares about me.
She'd he or she asked me all these questions and they really
took time to get to understand my decision.
And now I know I could do this differently next time.
It's so low effort for the leader.
Right, right. So when we do our Be a Great
Coach program with leaders, we try to dispel the myths that
they have about coaching, that it takes too long or it's too
touchy feely or you know, we need to get stuff done and none
of that stuff is true. You know, we get people within
the 1st 30 minutes at the workshop, we pair them up and we
give them our CHEAT SHEET, you know, our great coaching
framework and we say you've got 10 minutes to coach this person
and all you have to do is ask the questions on the card.
And in 10 minutes somebody has moved from idea what were they
stuck on? They've thought through options
and they've come up with the best next step.
And so it just so it, it shifts things for them that it, it
opens them up to, oh, it so it doesn't have to take a long
time. Oh, it really can help me get
stuff done. I want it to be like, you see,
you say the default setting and that, that, that as a leader, my
default is I just want to coach you.
And, and there are times in an organization where you can't
coach, right? There's some circumstances.
Well, shoot, this is not a coaching thing.
This is now right. And, and it might be that you've
decided that the person doesn't have the will or the skill to
make the pivots that you're looking for and, or they've done
something egregious in terms of company policy or whatever.
And that's not a coaching moment.
Then it's like, OK, well, now the now it's, I've got to, you
know, I've got to be a manager now, right?
But, but most, but I want the default.
I want to see first. Can we, is this a coachable
moment? I might find out that it's not
because the person isn't coachable or the situation
doesn't warrant it if we weren't something more serious.
But I want our default to be. My job is to empower these
people. And the best way to empower
people is to coach them. Yeah, it's great.
I mean, it's funny, I can't exactly remember who I was
speaking with, but these things are so second nature for most of
us. Like it's a lot of meaning.
It's it's logical to say, Oh yeah, people would respond
better to coaching versus telling because I don't want to
be told what to do. And yet we we still see there
are so many leaders who really benefit, would benefit from
coaching themselves because they themselves are not coaches.
And so I'm curious if you were to give advice to any listener
today, whether it's for someone who's working or coaching a
leader, to be a stronger leader and to kind of try and maybe
remove themselves from some of these behaviors that are less
effective to something more effective.
What would you, what would you advise them in terms of getting
moving the needle in a way that's more impactful with a
leader that potentially is not, you know, leading with this
coaching mindset and, or what would you say to someone who is
a leader who is not using this type of mindset?
How do they start? Yeah.
I mean, it's just making the decision and, and finding a way
to build it into, you know, so we learn by, we think about
something, we talk about it with somebody and we practice the new
way, right? So if we get into that habit of
that three-step process over and over again, we're going to learn
the new way. We're going to, we're going to
put a new habit in place. So if, if, if it's something
that you, you, if you think you've been coaching, but you
want to get better at coaching, just what, what can you do today
and tomorrow and the next day to be intentional?
Or how do you make yourself more aware that you want to try
something different? And how do you be transparent
about it? You can tell your team, you
know, I've been, I think I've been telling you guys to what to
do a lot. And maybe it's I, it's probably
disempowering and I don't want to do that anymore.
So I'm going to practice being a coach more and you can help me.
So what do you want to get? You can come to me when we have
our one on ones and say, here's what's going on with me.
Here's what I would like some coaching on today.
And we can turn our one on ones from just a status update to a
coaching session. And I want to make that
commitment. If they're brand new, I would,
you know, find what some place to learn about coaching.
You could read my new book. It's, it's a, it's a cookbook,
right? It's a, it's a recipe book.
You, you get a coach, ask your organization if they have, you
know, if, if you can have some dollars to, you know, do some
training on it. So it's just, it comes down to
being intentional. And, and for me, when I'm, when
I'm coaching leaders, I asked them to think about what's the
impact that you want to have? And this is Evergreen.
This isn't role specific. It's what do you want people
saying about you when you're not around, right.
Tracy is a blank leader who helps others blank.
How would you fill in those blanks?
And that's ever OK. So that means probably what are
the behaviors? What, what, what are the
behaviors and practices that are consistent with that impact
statement that you've articulated?
Is it telling people what to do? Is it empowering them and
coaching them? OK, so now we have that
Evergreen aspiration. So what's the development that
you want to engage in that would help you make that that impact
statement true versus aspirational and you start that
journey? That's great advice.
And I, I love that question. How, how do you want people
talking about you when you're not in the room?
Because they are they. Oh, they definitely, Oh, they.
Are they're just people are talking about you right now and.
My ears are ringing. And it's, yeah.
And it's based on the. Probably it's based on the last
interaction they had with you. Yeah, it's true.
And I in. That last interaction.
Right. And I love that you shared this
idea and this strategy that you can just be transparent that you
could say, Hey, you know what, I've been leading in this type
of way and I want to try something new.
And that also encourages the team who might be leaders
themselves, leaders in their own right always, but people leaders
and and managers as well to be open.
That's that's a huge part of like personal growth, I think is
just being open to sharing your vulnerabilities or the things
that you want to do differently. Right.
And you know, one of the things that I find when we're, we're
engaging leaders to teach them about coaching is they'll say,
well, Greg, that's not my organization.
My organization isn't like that. My organization is still pretty
command and control old school. And I, and that's not our
culture. And I say, you know what?
Maybe it's not. And you're not the CEO.
I don't expect you to be able to change the whole culture, but
you're a culture of 1. So how do you want to show up?
And you can create a culture on your team of here's how we're
going to show up. For one another and for the
people that we engage with inside the organization.
And, and then they're going to have an experience.
They're going to tell a story about you and your team when
they go to other parts of the organization.
And eventually you're going to find people with their nose
against the glass looking at your team.
And they're going to want, you know, you're they're going to
try to poach the people on your team because you're going to
build a strong team. And they're going to love
working with your team because of the way that your team is
just so collaborative and so empowering of one another and
really positive and easy to work with.
So yeah, you can't change the whole organization, but you can
create this culture in your team.
Absolutely. You know, I was just looking up
the the quote. I think it's from Mahatma
Gandhi. Be the change you wish to see in
in the world, right? It's like we, many of us have
probably heard this, but like, what does it actually mean?
You've kind of just explained what that means.
You might work in a company that doesn't necessarily value that
type of leadership today. But it's true that once there is
a A-Team or a department that's operating a little differently,
all of a sudden that spreads, word spreads and people are
potentially not even become envious.
I want to be on that team, but they, they also maybe are
inspired and want to emulate what's working.
So I think that's really cool. And I, I've really appreciated
all of the insights that you've shared on this episode.
And, and as expected, it was a great conversation.
So we've done it, we've done it a plus.
You've done it. And I'm, I'm really grateful
that you joined the podcast and, and talked through your book and
also just this, this whole, you know, concept of how we can
change how we lead and it can start with us just as much as it
can start at the top. And by the way, for all the
listeners, like I said, at the top of the podcast, all of the
links will be in the show notes. But I just have to make mention.
And Greg, I've said this to you already, the the book cover is
so gorgeous. You're just going to see the
book and you're going to buy it. That's just the way that it
goes. That's the way it goes.
It's a beautiful cover and it really is one of these one of
the books that is like, you just want to pick it up because even
if it's, you know, it could be maybe classified as as self help
or leadership or whatever, but it it's deeper than that just
from the image alone. So, and obviously we've talked
quite a bit about it. So it's something that everyone
should certainly navigate to and and learn from.
So Greg, thank you so much. I'll give you a moment here to
share where else everyone can find you.
And of course everything will be linked as I mentioned.
Yeah, I mean, you already mentioned it.
I'm on LinkedIn, we our YouTube channel where we drop a, a video
a week, you know, on all topics, leadership and, and you'll find
us at ultraleadership.com. And, and yeah, it's, it's it,
it's been a pleasure talking with you.
I could do this all day. Yeah, same.
Yeah, it, this is so really, I just really appreciate it.
I appreciate the work that you're doing because there are a
lot of folks who, you know, find themselves, you know, promoted
into a, a, a leadership position in their organization and
they're left to their own devices.
And so a podcast like yours is a fantastic resource for, you
know, early career folks who want to jump into, who want to
get on IT leadership track, people who have just started in
it, or, you know, old, old guys like me who just need a
refresher from time to time. So your work is really important
and I appreciate it. It's a privilege for me to get
to talk with you. I really appreciate that.
Thank you so much and the honor is all mine.
But I have learned to take a compliment, so I take it humbly
and I appreciate it. Hopefully all the listeners gain
as much much from our conversation as I think I have
and hopefully you have as well. So for everyone listening, don't
forget to rate review and subscribe and make sure you
connect with Doctor Greg Giuliano because you won't
regret it. Thank you so much.
Appreciate it. Hey, just before you go, don't
forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the first to
hear when an episode drops each week and maybe leave a five star
review and a comment about how much you loved this episode.
Plus, if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this
episode, make sure you share it with them.
Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.