1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,560 Let's be real, December and HR is no joke. 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:04,680 I'm exhausted. Anybody else? 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,880 Yeah, it's for, at least for me. It's open enrollment. 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,880 It's performance review season. It's merit process season. 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,200 It's just a crazy time with so many things. 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,720 Plus, like some of the weeks are short, like between November and 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,000 December, certainly. But then like you get toward the 8 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,400 end of December and like, you don't have that many days left, 9 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,000 and it's like, how do you get all this stuff done? 10 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,840 Juggling your team's needs with payroll hours, tracking time 11 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,040 sheets while wrapping up the year and preparing for next 12 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,200 year. It's just a lot. 13 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:37,400 All with a tech stack that's held together with spreadsheets 14 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,920 and a ton of hope. Well, depending, right? 15 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,560 But this is where ultimately into a QuickBooks Payroll comes 16 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,440 in. You might think that QuickBooks 17 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,360 is just for accounting, but let me tell you, it's so much more 18 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,720 than that. QuickBooks Payroll is your 19 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,120 business management Control Center that connects payroll, 20 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,600 time tracking, HR, and finance in one powerful platform. 21 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,840 It breaks down silos, reduces errors, and improves 22 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,240 collaboration, all without adding complexity or forcing you 23 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,440 to switch systems. Thank you QuickBooks Payroll for 24 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,680 saving us. QuickBooks Payroll gives you 25 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,560 clarity, control, and confidence to do your job smarter and 26 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,960 faster so you can spend less time chasing down data and more 27 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:19,520 time supporting your team. I personally love that 28 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,920 QuickBooks Payroll integrates with everything. 29 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,520 Integration, AI, and automation handle all of the heavy lifting, 30 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,200 giving you nearly 4 hours back a week. 31 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,280 And frankly, if you think about that, imagine what you could do 32 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,320 with four more hours every week. Just think about it. 33 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,560 Let your mind go to that magical place. 34 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,360 So if you're ready to stop surviving and start thriving in 35 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,080 the new year, make the switch to QuickBooks payroll now. 36 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,640 Learn more by going to quickbooks.com/payroll. 37 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,600 That's quickbooks.com/payroll. Welcome to the Bringing the 38 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,600 Human Back to Human Resources podcast. 39 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,760 I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've spent my entire professional 40 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,720 career in HR. Each week, we'll explore the 41 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,960 delicate balance between people and business with the aim to 42 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,480 reconnect the two and create meaningful outcomes. 43 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,960 Listen in as I share my own experiences, challenge the 44 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,520 status quo, and chat with guests from various industries about 45 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,560 our mission to bring the human back to human resources. 46 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:17,400 Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast. 47 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,400 Thank you so much for being here for another week. 48 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,040 I made a joke right before we started recording, so that's why 49 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,840 I'm smiling so big. But also, I'm really excited 50 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,240 that we have Doctor Greg Giuliano on the podcast. 51 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,880 Did I pronounce your name correctly, Greg? 52 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,800 Doctor, you did all right. Get a. 53 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:35,960 Gold Star. Thank you, but the listeners are 54 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,320 probably so tired of hearing me say I'm really excited about my 55 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,720 guest. But The thing is, you know, we 56 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,800 went through this process when I bring a guest on, it's not just 57 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,160 bringing you on cold. Like, you know, we've vet the 58 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,840 topics we talk through. You know what, what could be 59 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,200 interesting for the listeners. So I am truly excited about 60 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,200 every topic that we talk about on this podcast, but especially 61 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,080 this one because it's all about leadership and change and all of 62 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,960 the good stuff, but from a very specific point of view. 63 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,960 So let me introduce you to Doctor Greg Giuliano. 64 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,520 As I've already teased, he is an advisor and executive coach to 65 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,680 senior leaders and teams all all over the world. 66 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,760 He is the founder of GA Ultra Leadership, designing leadership 67 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,560 and team development strategies that Dr. organizational 68 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,160 transformation. His mission is to help leaders 69 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:24,480 and teams grow their capacity to enable positive disruption for 70 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,400 markets, organizations, teams and individuals. 71 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,760 Greg is the author of three number one Amazon bestsellers, 72 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,720 Coaching for a Change, The Next Normal and Ultra Leadership, as 73 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,800 well as The Heroes Journey. You can find Greg on LinkedIn. 74 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,480 We'll link everything in the show notes as well as where you 75 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,960 can find his books. And you can also find him on the 76 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,040 Ultra Leadership YouTube channel and at ultraleadership.com. 77 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,440 So, Greg, thank you so much for being here. 78 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,040 I'm really, really excited to dive into especially your most 79 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,200 recent book, Coaching for a Change. 80 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,400 But before we get into that, why don't you tell us all how this 81 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,280 interest and how this passion started for you? 82 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,040 Absolutely. And thank you very much for 83 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:09,640 having me. I'm really looking forward to 84 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,760 the I'm as excited about the conversation as you are. 85 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,720 Nice. You know, I'm one of those lucky 86 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:21,560 people who finally found my way to doing what I love. 87 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,640 You know, in kindergarten we're taught to work and play well 88 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,400 with others. And I have to, you know, Full 89 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,160 disclosure, my citizenship grade when I was in, you know, 90 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,960 kindergarten, 1st and 2nd grade wasn't too great. 91 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,680 I wasn't great at working and playing well with others, much 92 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,400 to my parents chagrin. But that's kind of actually 93 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,240 become my life's work. I started out in education and 94 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,440 then I, I went into private. I did my doctorate in 95 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,160 psychology. It was in private practice for a 96 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,520 while and then found out about a new field of executive coaching 97 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,240 and then leader. And then through that, found out 98 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,640 about leadership development and made the jump full, you know, 99 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,400 into that world full time. And I, and I did that. 100 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,920 And I, you and I were talking the other day because I 101 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,040 appreciate the starting point much more. 102 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,480 It's, it made me, it made me feel better. 103 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,360 The starting point for therapy is something is wrong, broken. 104 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,160 And you know, can you fix it? Can you fix my spouse? 105 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Can you fix my kid? Can you fix this relationship? 106 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,720 Right? So it's all about fixing and in 107 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,160 it with coaching, it's not about fixing. 108 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:29,360 You're doing great. You just want to do better. 109 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,080 And, and so I just, I love the starting point and I love that 110 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,960 work. And so that's, that's been my 111 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:38,440 journey. It's been a privilege for almost 112 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,760 30 years now. I, I, you know, I'm kind of a 113 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,600 Sherpa and go along with people as the and teams as they're on a 114 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,360 journey to better themselves. I love that. 115 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,600 And I think what's really cool is that you have this background 116 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:59,840 that is, it enables you really to actually think about how 117 00:05:59,840 --> 00:06:03,200 people think and know how people think or why they might think 118 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,160 that way. And that you're, you're not 119 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,000 taking a, you know, almost like a segregated approach to 120 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,480 people's minds and mindsets. For example, it's easy for us to 121 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,480 say this leader, you know, they totally suck and they're mean 122 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,640 and they're angry all the time and they're confrontational and 123 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,160 they fight with everyone. But for someone with your 124 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,600 background, you're probably thinking, well, what was their 125 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,000 upbringing like? You know, these are their coping 126 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,120 skills with certain things. Why are they confrontational? 127 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,600 Like all of these things that I obviously am not qualified to to 128 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,920 go into, but it, it, it does for me help me to, to realize that 129 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:45,120 you are looking at leadership with an extra layer because 130 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,040 everyone reacts to their environments, not just because 131 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:53,600 of how they experience their careers or if they're happy and 132 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,040 their jobs are not so much more than that. 133 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,200 We know that there is literally no possibility of separating who 134 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,480 we are from the way that we are at work. 135 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,440 So I think that that's really interesting that you have that 136 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,520 background. Yeah, I mean, I and I bring a 137 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,120 bunch of it, you know, not explicitly, you know, because, 138 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,200 you know, coaching and therapy aren't the same thing. 139 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,240 But I learned a lot of lessons as a, as a therapist that, you 140 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,800 know, I, I, I bring one of the things that I bring into my work 141 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,160 and I remind folks, and you mentioned that sometimes you 142 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,520 might be, there might be a leader who's, you know, you 143 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,360 know, a bully or just, you know, not not optimal, you know, and, 144 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:37,240 and there's a, there's a model from the late 60s transactional 145 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,200 psychoanalysis called the drama triangle, where, you know, and 146 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,720 we tell stories to make meaning of our, of our lives and stories 147 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,480 have characters. And so a story like you were 148 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,760 just sharing, you know, we tell these stories at work all the 149 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,160 time. That leader's a jerk. 150 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,240 That team is hard to work with. That process is, you know, 151 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,200 terrible. And it's really all, you know, 152 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,360 So we're telling a story and that person or that team or that 153 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,360 process becomes the villain in our story. 154 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,840 And we grab somebody in the hallway or we text somebody 155 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:15,040 after, after the meeting and we, and we complain to them, we vent 156 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,320 to them. That leader's a jerk. 157 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,600 That team is, you know, God, I hate dealing with the finance 158 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,000 team. They're all right. 159 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,120 You know, that HR process. I'm just kids ruining my life. 160 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,960 And that person we've asked, we're asking them to play the 161 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:33,159 hero for us and make us feel better and, and agree with us. 162 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:39,840 And, and, and when we do that, the only character left by 163 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,200 default is the victim. And we make ourselves the 164 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,920 victims in our own stories. And what I found is that even 165 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,480 the people that we label the biggest villain in the company, 166 00:08:52,680 --> 00:08:54,400 they're telling themselves a victim story. 167 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,520 They act that way because they feel victimized. 168 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,680 And So what I try to tell people is, you know, we can't lead if 169 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:05,360 we're in one of those corners. So how do we get ourselves out 170 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,480 of that corner? And by the way, you are not a 171 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,000 victim. So, yeah, that just happened. 172 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,360 Let's vent for a couple of minutes. 173 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,560 Let's get it all out. It's like, OK, it's all out now. 174 00:09:13,560 --> 00:09:18,680 OK, so you are not a victim. What's in your control and what 175 00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:21,440 do you want to do? Because at the end of the day, 176 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,560 even the biggest villain in your company, they're not really a 177 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:28,520 villain. They're just a person who's 178 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,480 very, very different than you are, period. 179 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:33,840 What do you want to do about that? 180 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,160 Right. Well, this, this is something 181 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,520 that people probably logically understand. 182 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,600 Oh, everyone's a human. Everyone. 183 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,840 You know, people have good intentions 99.9% of the time. 184 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,640 And yet that never registers in the moment. 185 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:57,400 And something that I actually recently have imparted on in my 186 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,640 own practice as an individual in a high pressured job with, you 187 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,560 know, multiple stress points is that I'm allowed to complain or 188 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:08,680 vent about something for a certain period of time. 189 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,200 It's a short period of time. Otherwise my husband would 190 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,600 probably be my ex-husband because he wouldn't be able to 191 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,640 stand. Just kidding. 192 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,440 But it's like, you know, I give myself, OK, I'm going to, if 193 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,880 it's at 4:00 that I start venting, then by 6:00 PM I've 194 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,280 got to be done. And when when I think about 195 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,160 that, what it's allowed me to do is remember that like most of 196 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,520 the time, the things that are bothering us are really not that 197 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,000 big of a deal. And especially when we're not 198 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,800 like saving lives. Maybe some people are, but we're 199 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,200 not saving lives and we're not like saving the world. 200 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:46,240 And we're probably just like processing our own or executing 201 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,200 on our own jobs. And while important, it's not 202 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,600 necessarily something that is earth shattering, which again, 203 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,160 for some people, maybe it is. But nevertheless, I, I say that 204 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:06,040 because I, I'll share candidly. I used to really dwell on like 205 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,560 as, and I'm a very positive person by the way, but I used to 206 00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:12,880 dwell on things that made me feel like I was out of, you 207 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:17,120 know, not in control of like my own role or my own future at a 208 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,680 company. Or if someone, you know, didn't 209 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:23,120 agree with me or they gave me feedback that was like, not even 210 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,560 harsh, but like mean, you know, 'cause everyone kind of can 211 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,160 encounter that at some point. But I used to dwell on those 212 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,760 things that then ultimately led to, yes, to your point, this 213 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,480 victim mentality. And then further, you kind of 214 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,960 ostracize yourself from the organization and you're putting 215 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,600 you, you resent the people around you, you resent the 216 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,280 company and you end up either leaving or you figure out how 217 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,800 to, to overcome that. And so when I think about what 218 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,280 you've shared as far as you know, people are just, everyone 219 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,840 is flawed at some level. And we're talking about people 220 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,040 who are just people at the end of the day. 221 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,320 That's something that over time, I as an individual have learned, 222 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,240 even though I know this, like logically, we all know this. 223 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,880 But I'm curious if you have ideas for how someone can, 224 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,720 instead of learning the hard way, can actually like impart on 225 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,560 themselves strategies to just take a step back. 226 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,400 Maybe do something like what I do where it's they they give 227 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,960 themselves a time limit for their complaining and then 228 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,040 effectively enable themselves to just move on and reset their 229 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,480 mindset. Yeah, I mean, your strategy is a 230 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,520 good one, right? It's creating space between the 231 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,640 what the stimulus, right? What, what triggered you and, 232 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,720 and, and your response, right. So when we have a knee jerk, you 233 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,240 know, if it's immediate, it's probably just emotional 234 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,200 reactivity, right? They triggered a negative 235 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:54,320 emotion in US and that emotion is driving my decision making of 236 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,200 what am I going to do next? And what you're doing is a great 237 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,920 strategy is, you know, it's even, it's as simple as counting 238 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,640 to five, you know, and breathing before I, I think about, OK, now 239 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,760 what am I going to do? And so just creating that kind 240 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:15,200 of space to allow you to regulate your response to that 241 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,840 emotion that is welling up in you because somebody's behavior, 242 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,800 you know, crossed the boundary with you. 243 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,920 It you know, it doesn't. It's, it's counter to how you 244 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,080 would show up. And so you you got to give 245 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,800 yourself permission to allow it. Yeah, Yeah. 246 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,000 I mean, yeah, I got triggered. I'm upset because of what you 247 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,960 said or what you did. And so now I, I want to bring 248 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,880 myself back to center and calm myself down and then think 249 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:47,600 about, OK, not a victim. I have agency. 250 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,320 What do I want to do right? Because you know, what's the 251 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,800 boundary that is it Do I need to do something or do I need to 252 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,240 just let it go by like a cloud in the sky, right? 253 00:13:57,600 --> 00:13:59,760 Because maybe it did it. Maybe they don't even they're 254 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,840 not even aware that what they said or did you know, 'cause 255 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:08,160 that reaction in me, they might not even know that they've done 256 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,080 that. And the danger is if we don't do 257 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,720 what you're doing is create is have that strategy of calming 258 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,920 myself and thinking before I say something or do something. 259 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,120 The danger is I'm going to I'm going to engage in a behavior 260 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,800 that someone else is going to go home and tell their story and 261 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,800 I'm the villain in their story. Right, right. 262 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,680 Because I behaved badly, because I was triggered by something. 263 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,200 So we end up in this dynamic of villain victim, you know, all 264 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,840 the time. You know, the if I don't like 265 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,840 the finance team, I'm going to be hard to work with with the 266 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,920 finance team and they're going to tell a story about, you know, 267 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,680 Greg, you know who? God, that guy Greg, he's just 268 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,920 really hard to work with. He doesn't understand how we 269 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,280 were. So we end up being somebody 270 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,520 else's villain. So what you're doing is a 271 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,520 beautiful strategy of OK, yeah, I know that happened, right. 272 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,560 I used to say to went to my coach, I'd, I'd, I'd vent and 273 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,040 he'd say, are you OK? Yeah. 274 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,160 Well, that just happened. What do you want to do about it? 275 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,440 Right. You you can go kill him, but 276 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,480 you'll probably get arrested or get fired. 277 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:19,600 Right. So you've all cut. 278 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,760 You can do anything you want. You're a grown up. 279 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,200 You can do anything you want. But what consequence are you 280 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,240 willing to accept? What's the outcome you're 281 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,600 looking for? And it just reminds me, OK, 282 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,160 yeah, I have agency here. What do I want to do? 283 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,920 Sometimes it's something, sometimes it's nothing. 284 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,400 Just let it go. Totally letting it go is 285 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,440 actually a very powerful thing. You think like in the moment 286 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,520 when you're you're in that like emotional state, you're like, 287 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,400 there's no way I'm letting this go. 288 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,400 I'll never let this go. They sent me an e-mail with AK 289 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,640 and a period after it. You know, it's like the how can 290 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,880 they do that? They're so rude. 291 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,480 You know, it's like things that are otherwise like so totally 292 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,240 insane that it really don't when you actually walk away from it, 293 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,400 you're like, Oh yeah, I forgot about that. 294 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,840 I totally let it go. This is like, I suppose similar 295 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,160 to the sage advice that many people give, which is never send 296 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,720 an e-mail when you're angry and or, or never reply to an e-mail 297 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,440 that makes you angry and walk away for 24 hours. 298 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,960 It's not that big of a deal. I have made the mistake of not 299 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,280 listening to myself on those things. 300 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,360 And I, you know, doesn't matter how much of a professional you 301 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:35,360 are, you when you're angry, your words can be cutting and they 302 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,040 don't necessarily communicate what you're looking to 303 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,120 communicate. And frankly, when you respond to 304 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,680 things, when you are in that heightened state of emotion, 305 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,760 you're angry, whatever it is. You actually, I don't know if 306 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,600 you're like me, you probably didn't even fully read the 307 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:49,960 thing. And then you're not even 308 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,360 answering the question that's being asked. 309 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,840 This is like my own truth serum this episode here. 310 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,200 But you know, The thing is like we all, we've all done it and 311 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,760 we'll all do it at some point. And no matter how much we've 312 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,400 learned, we'll probably can, you know, make a mistake maybe once 313 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,760 or twice. You can slip up a little bit. 314 00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:10,560 But one of the things that I really like that you said is you 315 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:15,520 use the you use the term agency. And when I think about this, you 316 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:20,040 know, decision to step away or decision to give yourself time 317 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,560 and space, as we've talked about, you are taking back the 318 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,680 feeling of control that you've you ultimately feel you're 319 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,440 relinquishing. Because to me, and when you talk 320 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:36,360 about the victim villain kind of dichotomy, there is a, a piece 321 00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,840 of the, the villainizing that we do with these stories where we 322 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,320 probably feel a lack of control or we feel like we are out of 323 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:47,920 control, that we don't have, you know, the ability to make our 324 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,720 own decisions or have our own, you know, have our own agency 325 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,520 over things. When in reality, walking away, 326 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,760 figuring out what exactly it is that you need in that moment is 327 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,160 probably the best way to articulate the control for 328 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,000 yourself that you still have. And the agency is really the 329 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,000 probably the perfect term. And one of the things that you 330 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:13,600 and I had spoken about the other day was how leaders in recent 331 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,000 months, years have potentially like reverted back. 332 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,240 Not all leaders, but some leaders have potentially 333 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:27,000 reverted back to this high control, like super hands on, 334 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,720 potentially even micromanaging type of strategy when it comes 335 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,000 to their leadership. We see this, for example, and 336 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,520 companies saying you have to come back to the office full 337 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,080 time when people have been working remotely for the last 338 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,120 five years or things like, oh, you can't take, you know, you, 339 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,960 you can't take PTO for that particular day because you know, 340 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,320 we need you in the office, even though it's like, what's the big 341 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,240 deal with one day? Like we see small things like 342 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,360 that that actually have big impacts on people. 343 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,800 So I'm curious what your thoughts on on the leadership 344 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,400 element to that what what your thoughts are there? 345 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,640 Yeah, I mean, I think we've been on a tremendous journey to as, 346 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,320 as, as the metaphor of the organization as a machine has 347 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,800 die as died off and it can't go away fast enough in my view to 348 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,800 the organ. The organization is a bunch of 349 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,760 people, you know, with a, with a share with, you know, shared 350 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,080 objectives. Here's what we're trying to 351 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,360 achieve in this organization. And, and so if, if the, if the 352 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:29,000 organization is a machine, my job as a manager is to make sure 353 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,680 that my parts of the machine are as efficient and effective as 354 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,360 possible. If I see my team as a group of 355 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:38,480 people, a group of humans who are working together to achieve 356 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,560 something, then my role is very different as as a leader. 357 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,560 And so we're seeing as we're, we think more about the customer 358 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,280 and the brand experience we're trying to create. 359 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,840 What's the employee experience that we can create that that, 360 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,880 you know, creates that positive customer experience that results 361 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,480 in an awesome brand experience in the marketplace. 362 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:04,720 So when we if we if we reframe it like that, then the the old 363 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,880 school, you know, organization is machine command and control, 364 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:13,800 traditional hierarchy that that's giving way and and it's 365 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,680 it's been happening. And what I'm what I'm concerned 366 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,720 about in in the last six months is as. 367 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,960 People and organizations and markets are, you know, there's a 368 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,400 lot more uncertainty and volatility in the system that 369 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,400 there's a, a reversion to, you know, OK, we need to command 370 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,880 this organization and we need to control it. 371 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:39,840 And, and I don't want to see that. 372 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:45,040 I think that's AI think it's a bad idea because our workforce 373 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,680 today, especially on the other side of the, the pandemic, 374 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,480 you're right, people are used to, you know, we, we had to give 375 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,840 up command and control because we sent everybody home. 376 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,840 And so we've started thinking about outcomes and productivity 377 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:04,520 more than time, you know, time and you're in your cubicle. 378 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,120 And I and I want to see a stay in that, even if we are, you 379 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,080 know, working, if we moved back to hybrid that some 380 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,360 organizations are, you know, can you, if you're, can you be 381 00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,800 available, you know, to the team and to our internal partners? 382 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,480 So how does that, what does it look like when you bring people 383 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,840 back? But I, I hope we don't go back 384 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,920 to it. And I think if we try to, it's, 385 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:33,000 it's, it's dangerous and, and not dangerous, but it's just 386 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,800 the, it's just the wrong move because the workforce today, you 387 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,440 know, especially younger folks, we've got a taste of feeling 388 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,440 empowered and a sense of autonomy and, and a sense of 389 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,240 trust that you're going to, you're going to contribute and 390 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,240 you're going to follow through and you're going to be 391 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,760 productive and you're going to, you know, you know, be a, a 392 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,040 strong part of the team and do your work. 393 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,200 I don't need to watch you all the time. 394 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,320 And so I, I want to see leaders accelerate that shift from old 395 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,560 school managing and, and really micromanaging to coaching and 396 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:15,040 empowering people to see what we're trying to achieve together 397 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,560 as a team and say, this is my part. 398 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,440 I got this. And if I need something, I, if I 399 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,440 need coaching from you, I will ask you. 400 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,400 And that leaders are OK with that, that they see that that's 401 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,880 their role to serve the team and be a be a coach to these 402 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,400 talented people that you've brought in and and if asked to 403 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,440 work together. Yeah, it's really a fairpoint. 404 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,560 You know what I think about what you've shared too with regard to 405 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,360 command and control versus people feeling empowered. 406 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,960 It does feel antithetical when when there's someone exerting 407 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,960 this command and control philosophy or belief system in 408 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,480 terms of their leadership style. And then inevitably there's 409 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,600 really no chance for someone to feel empowered, autonomous, or, 410 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,040 you know, self motivated, right? Because it's like, well, this 411 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,400 person is just going to tell me what to do and what they need 412 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,200 from me and so I don't have to think. 413 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,600 It's it's the opposite. It's disengaging, it's 414 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:19,520 disempowering, and people end up doing as as just enough to not 415 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,920 get dinged. Right, right. 416 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,200 Oh, that sounds like a miserable way to guide A-Team. 417 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,760 I mean, I couldn't imagine having a, you know, especially 418 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,960 if we think about this top down. If this is something that a CEO 419 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,360 is doing or a board of directors is doing, and then CFO and then 420 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,240 directors and managers, you just have a team of people who aren't 421 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,960 innovating because they're not thinking for themselves. 422 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,440 They're not contributing because they don't care because who care 423 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,920 who, who wants to care in an environment like that? 424 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,440 And then you have leaders who, who, depending on how high that 425 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,440 type of philosophy goes in the ranks, who are probably being 426 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,360 rewarded that for that type of behavior. 427 00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:03,520 And then it creates the kind of the cycle of employees kind of 428 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,280 at the the quote, UN quote, bottom of the chain, who see 429 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,320 what it takes to be successful at an organization in that type 430 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,560 of organization, let's say, where there is this command and 431 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,360 control philosophy taking over. And then you have a group of 432 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,400 people who then model that and embody it. 433 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,560 And then you have future organizations that don't 434 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,200 transform what it means to be, you know, an organization that 435 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,600 empowers people. There's just no way it happens. 436 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,080 People, companies fall victim to that type of mentality very 437 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,600 often. Yeah. 438 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,240 You know, so in that, in that that kind of a traditional 439 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,680 command and control organization, everybody is 440 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,200 working to make sure that the CEO and the leadership team are 441 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:51,200 as anxiety free as possible. Everything is about making them 442 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,520 feel better, that they don't have to worry about anything. 443 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,880 I think we need to flip that. I think that the, the, that 444 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,520 leadership is, is there to serve the people who are doing the 445 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,440 work. And so creating the conditions 446 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,880 that make it easy for people to engage and people don't engage 447 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,680 the organization. When we survey, you know, we do 448 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,800 employee engagement surveys, people don't engage the 449 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,720 organization, they engage their work and they engage the people 450 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,320 that they work with. And so are we creating the 451 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,400 conditions that make it easy for them to engage their work and 452 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,320 easy for them to engage one another? 453 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,280 And when we do that, OK, then that's empowering, OK. 454 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,680 We create the conditions that people feel empowered that they 455 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,880 have not just responsibility, We're not, they're not just 456 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,600 hands on an assembly line, but you want their brains and you 457 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,280 want their hearts. So they're empowered to shape 458 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,160 their work and make decisions. And they have not just 459 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,120 responsibility, but authority for what? 460 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,600 For their contribution and how they go about doing that and 461 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,480 that that's how you unlock people and and and activate 462 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,320 them. Totally, totally. 463 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:08,920 I'm curious, have you ever encountered a leader who is kind 464 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,480 of leading with this command and control mindset or methodology, 465 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,640 thinking that they don't like, where they think that they're 466 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,760 empowering and engaging people, but actually they're just 467 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,160 commanding and controlling? Yeah, 'cause they're really 468 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,720 nice, right? They're really, you know, 469 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,400 they're, you know, they're, you know, they're, they're nice to 470 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:26,960 people. And so they're, they're, they're 471 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,760 not like barking at people, but I'm really nice to my people. 472 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,280 I, you know, I, you know, I know when their birthdays are and, 473 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,120 you know, and, and that, that kind of stuff, but they're still 474 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,720 just telling people what to do all the time. 475 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,880 And so, yeah, I had, I had a a person who I was coaching, who 476 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,280 he's every year and, and throughout the year, he just 477 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,520 told people what to do. It's like, here are your goals 478 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,480 for the year and here's what I want you working on, and here's 479 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,480 how I want you to do it. And, and it's just, and we 480 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,200 talked about it and I said, you know, so do you like being told 481 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,560 what to do? Because no, I hate being told 482 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,520 what to do. He said, yeah, everybody does. 483 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,360 Nobody likes being told what to do. 484 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,800 And all you do is tell you very talented people. 485 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,680 And do you do you trust that they know what to do? 486 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,080 Says, well, yeah, of course I trust them. 487 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,800 Well, then stop. Stop laying it out for them. 488 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,440 Oh, OK. So what should we do? 489 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,520 And so we flipped it. It's like, you know, what's the 490 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,200 North Star And invite them to tell you. 491 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,560 Here's, you know, here are my goals for the year. 492 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,400 They let them do the first draft, right? 493 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,280 Stop doing the first draft that a lot of leaders that I coach, 494 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,080 that's the, that's one of the first things I tell them is that 495 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,720 you are doing the first draft of everything. 496 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,720 You are not an individual contributor. 497 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,280 Stop doing the first draft. Let your people take the lead. 498 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:53,240 And then you can coach them to fine tune and make sure that 499 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,280 that they're focused on the right work and that they're 500 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,960 partnering with the right people, right? 501 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,840 So you become a mentor and a coach and a guide versus the guy 502 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,480 or the the woman who's just saying this is it. 503 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,360 Do this and do it this way. You got a bunch of mini me's, 504 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,800 any of it, and it's a bunch of baby birds, right? 505 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,600 You end up with a team of baby birds. 506 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,560 They're just waiting for you to feed them all the time. 507 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,400 Oh my God, how laborious that would be to be the Mama bird in 508 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,600 that circumstance. It's. 509 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,560 Exhausting. Yeah, well, he's complaining, 510 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,040 Greg, I don't have any time to think about things. 511 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,440 It's like, no, because you're doing the work of your team. 512 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:34,760 So really that we don't really, you know, you're, you're, 513 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,400 you're, you're overpaid for what you're doing because you're 514 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,320 doing the work of people one or two levels below you all the 515 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:42,640 time. Stop it. 516 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,920 Yeah, so interesting. I, it makes me think about 517 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,200 leaders that I have had who, or who have had, who are either on 518 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,120 the command and control side or the, you know, the, the really 519 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,440 like lead by example servant leadership style, which 520 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,560 obviously is the better style if you ask me. 521 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,160 Of course, as we're talking about here. 522 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,920 And it's interesting because most of the command and control 523 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,600 leaders that I've encountered, whether they've been my own or 524 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,200 I've had to kind of upskill them to move away from that type of 525 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,920 leadership style, they generally are very nice. 526 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,760 You're right there. It's interesting because there, 527 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,440 it's not like everyone is truly a villain and they just want to 528 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,440 tell everyone what to do. It's there's this almost 529 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,160 misguided effort that they want people to do great job. 530 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,080 Maybe they think at some level that they are servant leaders 531 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,400 because they're doing so much for their team. 532 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,840 But their teams are like, my leader does not trust me. 533 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,160 My leader doesn't even let me. Do you know something that I'm 534 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,920 highly qualified to be able to do? 535 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,160 And then at that point, they're just, they're probably more so 536 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:53,200 disengaged than anything because most people want to prove their 537 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,720 worth and they want to be able to take away from their 538 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:01,760 experiences, new learnings, new opportunities, new initiatives, 539 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,360 and then ultimately add it to their resume for a future role. 540 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,720 And when you're not actively doing or thinking on your own, 541 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,200 you're not really learning. Yeah, at all. 542 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,600 I mean, I talk about this in, in the new book that that that 543 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,120 micromanagement in my view is really just my anxiety is 544 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,920 driving my decision making. My, you know, I'm microman. 545 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,760 If I'm micromanaging my team, it's not because I don't trust 546 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,160 them, it's because my anxiety won't let me not micromanage 547 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,080 them. I need to know all that stuff. 548 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,640 I need to write it. So I just, I'm always in their 549 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,400 stuff. And so it if so, we try to how 550 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,000 do we break that habit and, and, and, and start, you know, and 551 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,920 that's the title of the new book is Coaching for a change and the 552 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,480 A's in parentheses because it has a double meaning. 553 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,120 Coaching for change. We're trying to help somebody 554 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,200 want to change or trying to help A-Team change or an organization 555 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,160 change. And we're trying to coach them 556 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,720 to change something or, and it's also, I want leaders to stop 557 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,000 telling people what to do and try coaching for a change. 558 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,960 You know, if you really want to engage people, you know, I love 559 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:10,880 being coached. I don't like being told what to 560 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,160 do. And, and, and I think that 561 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,480 everybody's I, I, you know, I think almost everybody is like 562 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,280 that. And so how do we help managers 563 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:24,320 make that shift from managing and God forbid, micromanaging to 564 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:29,200 coaching people and trusting them to, you know, help them 565 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,680 engage their work and their and their peers and feel empowered 566 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,200 to shape their work and then activated to go out and get it 567 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,360 done? Yeah, this point that you've 568 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,520 made, which really calls on the title of your book, Coaching for 569 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,000 a Change. Why don't leaders try coaching 570 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,320 for a Change is what you said. This, it brings me back to my I 571 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360 was very fortunate that I worked for Target in my very first 572 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,600 experience out of college because they have a really 573 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:03,960 wonderful culture of teaching coaching for leaders and they, 574 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,200 they spend a lot of time helping to really on board an up skill 575 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:14,720 leaders, whether new or tenured to, to be able to effectively 576 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,200 coach and everything at Target was like have a coaching 577 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,400 conversation. And the idea was that you would 578 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,240 go into that conversation just asking questions. 579 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,280 Well, what led you to to this decision? 580 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,800 Why did you decide to do this instead of whether someone stole 581 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,360 from the sore or whether you were, you know, interviewing 582 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,800 them, you know, preparing them for their next opportunity and 583 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,760 you were doing like a mock interview like every from from a 584 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,560 bad situation to a great situation. 585 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,040 Coaching was really at the forefront of the the leadership 586 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,560 experience. And so I learned very early on 587 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,960 that coaching and having coaching style conversations 588 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,000 where you're really leading with this question based approach, 589 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,080 you get first of all, you get so much more information, people 590 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,800 open up, they feel more safe and you effectively get that person 591 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,720 to their answer without having to tell them. 592 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,640 So now they've they're bought into you as a leader because 593 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,320 they're like, Oh my, my manager actually cares about me. 594 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,400 She'd he or she asked me all these questions and they really 595 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,720 took time to get to understand my decision. 596 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,120 And now I know I could do this differently next time. 597 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,240 It's so low effort for the leader. 598 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,160 Right, right. So when we do our Be a Great 599 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,360 Coach program with leaders, we try to dispel the myths that 600 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,240 they have about coaching, that it takes too long or it's too 601 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,000 touchy feely or you know, we need to get stuff done and none 602 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,680 of that stuff is true. You know, we get people within 603 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,440 the 1st 30 minutes at the workshop, we pair them up and we 604 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,080 give them our CHEAT SHEET, you know, our great coaching 605 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,480 framework and we say you've got 10 minutes to coach this person 606 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,920 and all you have to do is ask the questions on the card. 607 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,440 And in 10 minutes somebody has moved from idea what were they 608 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,600 stuck on? They've thought through options 609 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,560 and they've come up with the best next step. 610 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,639 And so it just so it, it shifts things for them that it, it 611 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,600 opens them up to, oh, it so it doesn't have to take a long 612 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,280 time. Oh, it really can help me get 613 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,560 stuff done. I want it to be like, you see, 614 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,480 you say the default setting and that, that, that as a leader, my 615 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,480 default is I just want to coach you. 616 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,320 And, and there are times in an organization where you can't 617 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,080 coach, right? There's some circumstances. 618 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:30,800 Well, shoot, this is not a coaching thing. 619 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,320 This is now right. And, and it might be that you've 620 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,280 decided that the person doesn't have the will or the skill to 621 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,239 make the pivots that you're looking for and, or they've done 622 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,600 something egregious in terms of company policy or whatever. 623 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:45,440 And that's not a coaching moment. 624 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,560 Then it's like, OK, well, now the now it's, I've got to, you 625 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,040 know, I've got to be a manager now, right? 626 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,159 But, but most, but I want the default. 627 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,960 I want to see first. Can we, is this a coachable 628 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,280 moment? I might find out that it's not 629 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,200 because the person isn't coachable or the situation 630 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,400 doesn't warrant it if we weren't something more serious. 631 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,680 But I want our default to be. My job is to empower these 632 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,760 people. And the best way to empower 633 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,480 people is to coach them. Yeah, it's great. 634 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,400 I mean, it's funny, I can't exactly remember who I was 635 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:26,280 speaking with, but these things are so second nature for most of 636 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,040 us. Like it's a lot of meaning. 637 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,800 It's it's logical to say, Oh yeah, people would respond 638 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,520 better to coaching versus telling because I don't want to 639 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,320 be told what to do. And yet we we still see there 640 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,880 are so many leaders who really benefit, would benefit from 641 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,520 coaching themselves because they themselves are not coaches. 642 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,280 And so I'm curious if you were to give advice to any listener 643 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,120 today, whether it's for someone who's working or coaching a 644 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,320 leader, to be a stronger leader and to kind of try and maybe 645 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,960 remove themselves from some of these behaviors that are less 646 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,280 effective to something more effective. 647 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,760 What would you, what would you advise them in terms of getting 648 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,080 moving the needle in a way that's more impactful with a 649 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,760 leader that potentially is not, you know, leading with this 650 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,320 coaching mindset and, or what would you say to someone who is 651 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,720 a leader who is not using this type of mindset? 652 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:26,080 How do they start? Yeah. 653 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,440 I mean, it's just making the decision and, and finding a way 654 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,040 to build it into, you know, so we learn by, we think about 655 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,160 something, we talk about it with somebody and we practice the new 656 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,680 way, right? So if we get into that habit of 657 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,160 that three-step process over and over again, we're going to learn 658 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:44,640 the new way. We're going to, we're going to 659 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,520 put a new habit in place. So if, if, if it's something 660 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,680 that you, you, if you think you've been coaching, but you 661 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,480 want to get better at coaching, just what, what can you do today 662 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640 and tomorrow and the next day to be intentional? 663 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,560 Or how do you make yourself more aware that you want to try 664 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,480 something different? And how do you be transparent 665 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,640 about it? You can tell your team, you 666 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,800 know, I've been, I think I've been telling you guys to what to 667 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,200 do a lot. And maybe it's I, it's probably 668 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,400 disempowering and I don't want to do that anymore. 669 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,520 So I'm going to practice being a coach more and you can help me. 670 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,600 So what do you want to get? You can come to me when we have 671 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,080 our one on ones and say, here's what's going on with me. 672 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,400 Here's what I would like some coaching on today. 673 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,480 And we can turn our one on ones from just a status update to a 674 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,440 coaching session. And I want to make that 675 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,280 commitment. If they're brand new, I would, 676 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,800 you know, find what some place to learn about coaching. 677 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,920 You could read my new book. It's, it's a, it's a cookbook, 678 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:41,680 right? It's a, it's a recipe book. 679 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,320 You, you get a coach, ask your organization if they have, you 680 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,600 know, if, if you can have some dollars to, you know, do some 681 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,640 training on it. So it's just, it comes down to 682 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,920 being intentional. And, and for me, when I'm, when 683 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,360 I'm coaching leaders, I asked them to think about what's the 684 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,080 impact that you want to have? And this is Evergreen. 685 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,840 This isn't role specific. It's what do you want people 686 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,320 saying about you when you're not around, right. 687 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,440 Tracy is a blank leader who helps others blank. 688 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,400 How would you fill in those blanks? 689 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,480 And that's ever OK. So that means probably what are 690 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,520 the behaviors? What, what, what are the 691 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:24,560 behaviors and practices that are consistent with that impact 692 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,480 statement that you've articulated? 693 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,120 Is it telling people what to do? Is it empowering them and 694 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,440 coaching them? OK, so now we have that 695 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,760 Evergreen aspiration. So what's the development that 696 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,240 you want to engage in that would help you make that that impact 697 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:46,120 statement true versus aspirational and you start that 698 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,560 journey? That's great advice. 699 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,320 And I, I love that question. How, how do you want people 700 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,000 talking about you when you're not in the room? 701 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,800 Because they are they. Oh, they definitely, Oh, they. 702 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,320 Are they're just people are talking about you right now and. 703 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,120 My ears are ringing. And it's, yeah. 704 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,880 And it's based on the. Probably it's based on the last 705 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,920 interaction they had with you. Yeah, it's true. 706 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,440 And I in. That last interaction. 707 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,200 Right. And I love that you shared this 708 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,520 idea and this strategy that you can just be transparent that you 709 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,000 could say, Hey, you know what, I've been leading in this type 710 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,640 of way and I want to try something new. 711 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,560 And that also encourages the team who might be leaders 712 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,680 themselves, leaders in their own right always, but people leaders 713 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,240 and and managers as well to be open. 714 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,600 That's that's a huge part of like personal growth, I think is 715 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,840 just being open to sharing your vulnerabilities or the things 716 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,080 that you want to do differently. Right. 717 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,560 And you know, one of the things that I find when we're, we're 718 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,080 engaging leaders to teach them about coaching is they'll say, 719 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,680 well, Greg, that's not my organization. 720 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,080 My organization isn't like that. My organization is still pretty 721 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,160 command and control old school. And I, and that's not our 722 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,520 culture. And I say, you know what? 723 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,040 Maybe it's not. And you're not the CEO. 724 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,280 I don't expect you to be able to change the whole culture, but 725 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:11,160 you're a culture of 1. So how do you want to show up? 726 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,600 And you can create a culture on your team of here's how we're 727 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,920 going to show up. For one another and for the 728 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,680 people that we engage with inside the organization. 729 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,000 And, and then they're going to have an experience. 730 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,640 They're going to tell a story about you and your team when 731 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,560 they go to other parts of the organization. 732 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,360 And eventually you're going to find people with their nose 733 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,560 against the glass looking at your team. 734 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,400 And they're going to want, you know, you're they're going to 735 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,640 try to poach the people on your team because you're going to 736 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,120 build a strong team. And they're going to love 737 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,160 working with your team because of the way that your team is 738 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:51,760 just so collaborative and so empowering of one another and 739 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,840 really positive and easy to work with. 740 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,520 So yeah, you can't change the whole organization, but you can 741 00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,760 create this culture in your team. 742 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,760 Absolutely. You know, I was just looking up 743 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,480 the the quote. I think it's from Mahatma 744 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,840 Gandhi. Be the change you wish to see in 745 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,040 in the world, right? It's like we, many of us have 746 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,720 probably heard this, but like, what does it actually mean? 747 00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:20,400 You've kind of just explained what that means. 748 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,640 You might work in a company that doesn't necessarily value that 749 00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,040 type of leadership today. But it's true that once there is 750 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,600 a A-Team or a department that's operating a little differently, 751 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,600 all of a sudden that spreads, word spreads and people are 752 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,440 potentially not even become envious. 753 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,440 I want to be on that team, but they, they also maybe are 754 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,960 inspired and want to emulate what's working. 755 00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,640 So I think that's really cool. And I, I've really appreciated 756 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,760 all of the insights that you've shared on this episode. 757 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,520 And, and as expected, it was a great conversation. 758 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,640 So we've done it, we've done it a plus. 759 00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,080 You've done it. And I'm, I'm really grateful 760 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:07,000 that you joined the podcast and, and talked through your book and 761 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,320 also just this, this whole, you know, concept of how we can 762 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,560 change how we lead and it can start with us just as much as it 763 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,040 can start at the top. And by the way, for all the 764 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,880 listeners, like I said, at the top of the podcast, all of the 765 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,360 links will be in the show notes. But I just have to make mention. 766 00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,400 And Greg, I've said this to you already, the the book cover is 767 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,400 so gorgeous. You're just going to see the 768 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,720 book and you're going to buy it. That's just the way that it 769 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:34,080 goes. That's the way it goes. 770 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:39,320 It's a beautiful cover and it really is one of these one of 771 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,760 the books that is like, you just want to pick it up because even 772 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,760 if it's, you know, it could be maybe classified as as self help 773 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,320 or leadership or whatever, but it it's deeper than that just 774 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,120 from the image alone. So, and obviously we've talked 775 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,880 quite a bit about it. So it's something that everyone 776 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:59,200 should certainly navigate to and and learn from. 777 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,560 So Greg, thank you so much. I'll give you a moment here to 778 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,600 share where else everyone can find you. 779 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,960 And of course everything will be linked as I mentioned. 780 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:08,640 Yeah, I mean, you already mentioned it. 781 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,880 I'm on LinkedIn, we our YouTube channel where we drop a, a video 782 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:18,920 a week, you know, on all topics, leadership and, and you'll find 783 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,640 us at ultraleadership.com. And, and yeah, it's, it's it, 784 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,520 it's been a pleasure talking with you. 785 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,040 I could do this all day. Yeah, same. 786 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,000 Yeah, it, this is so really, I just really appreciate it. 787 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,440 I appreciate the work that you're doing because there are a 788 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,040 lot of folks who, you know, find themselves, you know, promoted 789 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,800 into a, a, a leadership position in their organization and 790 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:44,360 they're left to their own devices. 791 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:49,800 And so a podcast like yours is a fantastic resource for, you 792 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,440 know, early career folks who want to jump into, who want to 793 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,080 get on IT leadership track, people who have just started in 794 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:02,080 it, or, you know, old, old guys like me who just need a 795 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:07,560 refresher from time to time. So your work is really important 796 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,760 and I appreciate it. It's a privilege for me to get 797 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,240 to talk with you. I really appreciate that. 798 00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:16,120 Thank you so much and the honor is all mine. 799 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,560 But I have learned to take a compliment, so I take it humbly 800 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:23,840 and I appreciate it. Hopefully all the listeners gain 801 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,520 as much much from our conversation as I think I have 802 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,240 and hopefully you have as well. So for everyone listening, don't 803 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:32,560 forget to rate review and subscribe and make sure you 804 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,880 connect with Doctor Greg Giuliano because you won't 805 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,560 regret it. Thank you so much. 806 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,600 Appreciate it. Hey, just before you go, don't 807 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,360 forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the first to 808 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,120 hear when an episode drops each week and maybe leave a five star 809 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,720 review and a comment about how much you loved this episode. 810 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,520 Plus, if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this 811 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:54,120 episode, make sure you share it with them. 812 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:57,080 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.