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Welcome to the Bringing the 
Human Back to Human Resources 

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podcast. 
I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 

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spent my entire professional 
career in HR. 

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Each week, we'll explore the 
delicate balance between people 

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and business with the aim to 
reconnect the two and create 

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meaningful outcomes. 
Listen in as I share my own 

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experiences, challenge the 
status quo, and chat with guests

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from various industries about 
our mission to bring the human 

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back to human resources. 
Hi everyone, welcome back to the

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bringing the human back to human
resources podcast. 

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Thank you so much for being here
for another week. 

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Don't forget to rate, review and
subscribe wherever you're 

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catching this episode, whether 
you're watching or listening. 

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And with me today I have Kristen
Brun Sharkey and I'm going to 

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tell you all about her and what 
we are going to talk about. 

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But just so you know, this is 
probably probably one of the 

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first episodes in 2025 and we 
have a ton of amazing guests 

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coming out this year. 
So depending on when this 

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episode airs, which I think it 
is 2025, just know that there is

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so much in store for you and so 
much to look forward to. 

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So without further ado, let me 
introduce Kristen to all of you.

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So again, Kristen Brunscharkey 
is an executive coach, 

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facilitator, and speaker who 
previously spent 15 years 

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leading teams in advertising, 
tech, and marketing at companies

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ranging from early stage 
startups to one hundreds. 

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Today, she helps leaders advance
their careers, make better 

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decisions, execute change 
effectively, develop innovative 

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solutions, and successfully 
engage their teams. 

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Her unique approach combines 
evidence based business and 

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leadership frameworks with 
principles and skills from 

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improv theater in order to help 
her clients and audiences 

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accelerate their impact. 
She has a Master's degree in 

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Management Strategy and 
Leadership from Michigan State 

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University and has spoken at 
notable conferences such as the 

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California Conference for Women 
and the Chief in Tech Summit. 

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She also Co hosts the leadership
podcast Love and Leadership, 

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which can be found on all major 
podcast platforms and of course 

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in the show notes where we link 
everything and anything. 

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Kristen, welcome to to the 
podcast. 

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Thank you so much for being here
with us. 

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Thank you for having me. 
I'm really excited to be here. 

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Amazing, of course, and I have 
to say I really envy your 

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background. 
For those watching on YouTube or

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Spotify, Kristen has a really 
nice background which is perfect

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for a podcast set up, compared 
to mine, which is basically just

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all doors. 
I have 1,000,000 doors behind 

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me. 
I'm in a room of doors. 

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I love it. 
I had fun designing it. 

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Oh my gosh, I love it. 
I'll have to talk to you when I 

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when we finally are in a home 
and not our rental apartment. 

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And then, you know, we can 
design anything we want. 

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And nevertheless, this week 
we're going to talk a lot about 

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innovation and innovation in 
business. 

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And I'm excited because this is 
a topic that I've probably 

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broached on the podcast in a few
different ways, but not 

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necessarily in an episode on its
own. 

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So why don't we first talk about
what innovation is and what it 

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means and why maybe it's so 
important in business? 

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Yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

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And I actually have a, a model I
like to use for this for, for 

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talking about particularly like 
how do you build a culture of 

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innovation? 
Because that's, that's such a 

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huge part of it, right. 
Like innovation isn't just one 

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thing that come up like 1 spark 
of creativity or one thing like 

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really, for companies to truly 
be innovative, it needs to be 

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embedded into their culture. 
So I like to think of it as two 

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different dimensions, right. 
So the first one being the level

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of the commit, level of 
commitment in the organization 

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and among the employees. 
So how, how committed are people

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to having a, a culture of 
innovation? 

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How committed are people to 
their ideas to execution? 

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How engaged are they? 
And then the other one being 

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openness to new ideas. 
And I find that those two 

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dimensions are, are really 
essential for building that 

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because if you have high 
commitment but low openness to 

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ideas, you tend to end up with 
this more like culture of 

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rigidity, like a lot of the 
language like, well, that's just

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how we do things around here. 
And if you have a lot of 

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openness to, to do ideas, but 
not really the level of 

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commitment and engagement and 
execution in there, you tend to 

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just kind of get more of the 
chaos where there's a lot of a 

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lot of ideas and creativity 
happening, but it's not actually

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being carried out. 
So the combination of those two 

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I like to talk about when 
thinking about like what it what

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actually leads to innovation in 
an ongoing culture of 

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innovation. 
I love that. 

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And actually this conversation 
is really timely because at the 

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time that we're recording this, 
which is in the end of November,

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I'm doing a talk for a women's 
networking group for a number of

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women that are part of, you 
know, portfolio companies for 

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this private equity firm. 
And a friend of mine is an HR 

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leader at one of those companies
and she invited me to talk at 

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the women's networking group. 
And the topic is actually 

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building a culture of 
innovation. 

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So this is a very, very a timely
discussion and one of the things

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that I plan to touch on too is 
that something very similar to 

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what you've just shared, that 
being open to new ideas, as 

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you've said, and being open to 
making mistakes and feeling safe

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and making those mistakes is a 
huge factor in this. 

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So maybe we dive a little bit 
deeper, especially going 

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following, I should say, 
following your rubric for 

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building an innovative culture. 
When you think about those two 

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parameters, again, looking at 
your rubric, how does someone 

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listening to this podcast 
episode walk away with a better 

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understanding of how to actually
implement those things where 

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they're building ownership, 
creating ownership, and then 

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also allowing for those ideas to
take place and feeling like they

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are safe in a safe place to be 
able to share ideas? 

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Yes, yeah, absolutely. 
And This is why I love 

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integrating principles from 
improv theater into many topics.

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But this is one of my absolute 
favorites because it applies so 

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well. 
And yeah, as you said, having an

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environment where failure is 
safe is absolutely critical 

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because if people do not feel 
safe to make mistakes, then 

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they're not going to raise 
ideas. 

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They're not going to be in a 
optimal environment for coming 

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up with new ideas, and they're 
definitely not going to be in an

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optimal environment for raising 
those ideas and bringing them 

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forward. 
So having that that culture 

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where failure is destigmatized 
is so essential. 

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Like I always love to quote 
Brené Brown with like there is 

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no innovation and creativity 
without failure, period. 

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It's true because everything's 
better when Brené Brown has said

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it right? 
So. 

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Totally, totally. 
I know she's a great mind of our

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present day. 
Yeah. 

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That's such a great way of 
putting it to and, and to your 

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point, like whenever she says 
something, it's really said in 

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such a way that's so clear and 
direct and kind. 

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And, you know, I think about 
failure often because sometimes 

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I'm like, oh, you know, if 
someone ever asked me, you know,

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an example of when I failed, 
it's like, you know, they're of 

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course they're examples that I 
think of. 

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But the ones that come to mind 
are when I was innovating or 

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trying something or building 
something new. 

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I mean, you have your own 
business. 

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I have my own business. 
And inevitably that is built on 

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the backs of innovation because 
you're building something 

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primarily from scratch. 
And you're seeing, you know, 

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you're throwing spaghettis, as, 
you know, spaghetti noodles at 

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the wall and you're seeing what 
sticks. 

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And that's kind of like a visual
for innovation. 

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You know, when you to your point
and to Brene Brown's point too, 

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when you are innovating, you 
have to, you know, you 

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inevitably are going to fail. 
And I think people see this term

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failure as like this big bad 
wolf and something that they 

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constantly try to avoid. 
But it's actually failure that 

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teaches us what success is. 
And it's failure that teaches us

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how we need to pivot or ways in 
which we pivot in order to find 

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that success. 
And all of this to say, and I 

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certainly don't want to ramble 
on and on and on and on because 

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I want to hear from you. 
But all of this to say is that 

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when we do make mistakes and we 
are innovating, we're, you know,

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the, IT, it's something that you
can feel like you can feel when 

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you have the opportunity and the
place and the space to innovate,

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to make mistakes, to fail 
without that fear of reprisal or

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the fear that I don't know in 
very realistic terms that 

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someone's going to get fired or 
reprimanded for the mistake they

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make. 
So I guess you know, on that 

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note, with the companies that 
you've worked with and 

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especially with your love for 
improv theater, have you seen 

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cultures where mistakes are not 
OK? 

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And have you had to or have you 
leveraged some of the the tools 

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in your tool belt to try and 
initiate change amongst that 

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culture or within that culture? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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Well, and it's funny too, 
because there's always what a 

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company says and then there's 
what is the reality of it, 

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right. 
Like what is actually enforced 

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via like what's recognized, 
what's what is promoted, what's 

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tolerated, right? 
Like that, that sends different 

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messages. 
So a lot of times companies are 

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like, we want this is innovative
and safe. 

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But then if you're reprimanding 
people for taking risks and if 

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you're promoting people who are 
just playing by the roll book 

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and not going above and beyond 
and really stepping outside, 

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then that's the message you're 
sending, right? 

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It's not what you're saying 
ultimately, but yeah, I really, 

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I, they think there's a lot of 
things that help with this. 

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One of the, the first things I 
usually work with companies to 

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understand is the importance of 
separating the process of idea 

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generation versus the evaluative
part of it. 

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So there's two different types 
of thinking. 

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There's divergent thinking and 
convergent thinking. 

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And divergent thinking is the 
generative part. 

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That's when you're actually 
coming up with new ideas and 

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generating like different 
options and possibilities and 

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solutions. 
And the convergent thinking is 

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when you're actually narrowing 
down those ideas. 

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You're analyzing them, 
evaluating them, figuring out 

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like what is the best solution. 
And what too often happens in 

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companies is they try to do 
these both at the same time or 

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they just skip over the 
generative part entirely, right?

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Just go straight to evaluative. 
And you miss that critical part 

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of actually coming up with the 
creative solutions in the 1st 

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place, but you also miss the 
opportunity to create this 

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really like safe space for idea 
generation where people feel 

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like they can speak up. 
And with, with improv, this is 

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where bringing in the concept of
yes and which if people have 

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heard of improv, they've very, 
it's very likely they've heard 

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of yes. 
And, but if you're not familiar,

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it is basically the core of 
improv. 

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So there's 2 words. 
There's the yes, which is 

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agreement and validation. 
So you're taking the idea that 

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the person has put forth and 
you're validating it, you're 

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agreeing with it. 
And then there's the and which 

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is you're adding your own 
contribution to it. 

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And this combination like really
works so well when it comes to 

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coming up with the ideas when 
you're in that generative space 

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and separating that from the. 
OK, now let's actually evaluate 

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and analyze and figure out like 
what is the best solution here 

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Is so powerful. 
It's so true this, it's really 

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funny. 
This is also part of this 

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presentation that I'm doing at 
this networking group. 

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And it just goes to show you how
there are very applicable real 

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solutions for people to leverage
in order to drive more cohesion 

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and innovation and 
collaboration. 

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So I love that you brought up 
yes and I should say yes and by 

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the way, but it's, it's 
something like that I have found

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has come up recently even in my 
like day job, let's say, quote 

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UN quote, where I work for a 
tech company. 

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And you know, we, we talk about 
yes and a lot because there is, 

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while it supports innovation and
being in a tech company, as you 

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know, innovation is kind of like
the ethos of everything that 

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happens in order to drive 
progress. 

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However, you know, when, when we
think of yes and as an approach 

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to communication and all of 
this, it really does help to 

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foster more innovation. 
It helps to foster more 

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collaboration and a moving away 
from what you called a more 

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rigid approach really to, to I 
guess it's kind of like 

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interaction with one another and
the culture of a business. 

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And there is actually a Ted 
talk. 

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I should probably link it. 
There's a Ted talk that I 

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recently found in doing some 
research for this networking 

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group that I'm speaking at where
this person who's not in HR, not

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in, you know, not in a, a 
position where she's like 

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coaching teams from, at least 
from what I saw at that time. 

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And she was talking about how 
the yes and approach, which I 

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learned from that Ted talk came 
from improv. 

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I did not know that before. 
And I obviously have now 

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reiterated this in my mind from 
what you've shared, she talked 

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about how it completely 
transformed the way that she LED

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her team. 
And so when I think about like 

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non HR people or those who are 
not in your profession or in 

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your industry, how they can 
benefit from taking an approach 

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like using yes and to foster 
more ideas or the sharing of new

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ideas, creating psychological 
safety amongst their team. 

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All of that really goes so far. 
And all it requires are two 

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words. 
I mean, I think it's, it's so 

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fundamental when we think about 
how some of these solutions are 

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some of the simplest. 
It's like the way that you 

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interact with people, the way 
that you, you know, prevent 

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yourself from chopping down the 
tree. 

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Because I'm sure you've also 
don't let me, don't let me 

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presume here, but I'm sure 
you've worked with leaders who 

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would rather just say, no, we're
doing it this way or no, we're 

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doing it that way because that's
their idea and that's what they 

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want to do instead of taking an 
approach like yes. 

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And, and my, as you were sharing
the, the beauty of improv 

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theater and how we can leverage 
some of these tools and tactics,

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I was thinking about blockbuster
actually. 

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And it's it it I think also I 
was thinking about this because 

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I'm re watching Schitt's Creek 
for like the fourth time. 

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And of course with like Rose 
video, you know, it's like top 

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of mind because. 
It's Oh yeah, you. 

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Know, and so I was thinking 
about how innovation was 

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probably not part of 
Blockbuster's culture because 

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had it been maybe Blockbuster 
would still be around and maybe 

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in a different capacity, but 
maybe they would still be 

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around, right. 
So a very another, you know, 

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very real example of the 
difference between an innovative

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culture and one that is not. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

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Because it, there's a certain 
degree of humility that is 

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required to truly have 
innovation built into your 

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culture. 
And I think so many leaders and 

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there's so many things that 
relate to this, right? 

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Like a lot of this comes to even
down to your childhood 

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insecurities or just how our 
brains are, are wired, right? 

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But like so many leaders have a 
hard time letting go and not 

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being the smartest person in the
room or not having the best idea

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in the room. 
And it can be really difficult 

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because when they're not open to
new ideas and especially things 

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like, Oh yeah, there is this 
massive change happening in your

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industry that is going to take 
out your entire company if you 

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don't do something about it. 
Like in case the classic cases 

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of Blockbuster like Kodak, it's 
like another one, right? 

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If if you don't have that 
openness and willingness to see 

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and do things differently, and 
also the willingness to accept 

288
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that like what's worked for you 
in the past and what has come 

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from you as a leader is not 
going to necessarily work in the

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00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,600
future. 
You're going to be vulnerable to

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00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,120
these kind of situations. 
And it does. 

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I think that like, As for 
leaders, it takes a lot of self 

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work to be able to do that 
successfully. 

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But if you go back to the I, I 
love saying this and I, my 

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00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,720
husband and I have our, who have
our podcast love and leadership.

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We, we reference this all the 
time. 

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Is kind of like, sort of like 
the raison d'etre for a podcast,

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is like great leaders create 
more leaders. 

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00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,080
And if you think about it in 
that way, like how can you 

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00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:36,960
elevate the ideas and solutions 
of other people, then that's 

301
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,720
when it's gonna really help with
creating this more innovative 

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00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,080
culture altogether. 
Yeah. 

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00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,560
I love that great leaders create
more leaders. 

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00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,040
And isn't it so true when we 
think about even our own 

305
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:53,800
experiences with leaders who are
amazing or great in this case, 

306
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,200
maybe they're not even amazing. 
Maybe they're great and great 

307
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,840
plus, but those are those are 
the people that we really 

308
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:01,760
emulate. 
Those are the people we want to 

309
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:07,600
work for and that we want to. 
I guess emulate is really the 

310
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,840
right word. 
But take borrow from, you know, 

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00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,320
it's like you finally become a 
leader or I am a firm believer 

312
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,520
that even people who are 
individual contributors are 

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00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,560
leaders too. 
But still, if we really think 

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00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,880
about someone managing a team, 
when you have a great leader, 

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00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,120
you have something as serving as
an example for you. 

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00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,560
Even even if someone's like an 
athlete in high school. 

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00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,440
I mean, there actually is a 
pretty sizable population of my 

318
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,080
listeners who are not in college
yet. 

319
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,800
And so I think about, well, if 
they're in high school or 

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00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,440
they're younger and they're on a
sports team or they're part of a

321
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:48,560
club at school and they have a, 
a coach or a mentor or someone 

322
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,920
who's guiding them through an 
experience and they're really 

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00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:56,240
amazing at what they do that 
helps set people up for success 

324
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,400
later on in life. 
And the the inverse to that is 

325
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,640
if they have someone who is not 
such a great example of 

326
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,480
leadership, it might deter them 
from, you know, reaching that 

327
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,720
potential for themselves. 
There's so much responsibility 

328
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:16,160
when it comes to being a leader 
in title, so to speak, because 

329
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,760
again, you can be a leader 
without it. 

330
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,400
But I really, I really love that
you and your husband said. 

331
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,080
I also, I know I said this when 
we spoke the last time, but I 

332
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,320
really love that you and your 
husband do your podcast together

333
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,240
because that in and of itself 
means that you were extremely 

334
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,040
open. 
And you? 

335
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,160
You know, you are willing to to 
hear it all. 

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00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,640
I don't know if I could do that 
with my husband because I I kind

337
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,240
of like having my own thing, but
I think that's awesome. 

338
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,800
It's so awesome. 
It's a lot of fun, It really is.

339
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,560
That's. 
Awesome. 

340
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,320
No, I think it's great. 
And then it's like you can 

341
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,360
really hold one another 
accountable to your various 

342
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:58,560
parts of the podcast business 
because it certainly requires a 

343
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,280
lot. 
It's it's that's nice. 

344
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,720
I think it's really nice, very 
heart warming. 

345
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:06,640
All of that to say, you know, 
when I, when I do think about 

346
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:11,440
what we've reflected on here and
seeing, and I think you said it 

347
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,080
perfectly, bringing humility 
into this that it requires. 

348
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,600
A great deal of humility in 
order to be innovative or foster

349
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,640
an innovative environment. 
It's really perfectly said in 

350
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:29,280
that way because it's not easy 
to realize that you are not the 

351
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,800
one with the best ideas or that 
there might be a better idea 

352
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,880
amongst the group of people that
you're interacting with. 

353
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,600
And that's where great leaders 
are made. 

354
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,000
Like when we think about the the
quote that you and your husband 

355
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,200
hold onto and and feel really 
strongly about. 

356
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,840
Great leaders are also made when
they realize that people around 

357
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,480
them might contribute better or 
more when they sit back and 

358
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,920
don't share their own ideas, let
alone have the idea that sticks.

359
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,760
And I, yeah, I don't know. 
I'm finding myself reflecting on

360
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,680
leaders that I've had who have 
done a really good job of just 

361
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,440
trusting in and and amplifying 
the voices of the people around 

362
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,080
them, whether they're on their 
teams or not. 

363
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,160
Yeah, I'm reflecting. 
I'm reflecting, Yeah, I I have 

364
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,160
some great examples. 
And don't get me wrong, you can 

365
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,240
also learn a lot from the not 
great leaders in your career. 

366
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,320
It's also valuable to know what 
you don't want to do right. 

367
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,640
But but yeah, when I really 
think about, there's a certain 

368
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,080
degree, there's almost a leap of
faith and you have to be kind of

369
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:37,680
let go of your ego and just 
really focus on the success of 

370
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:43,160
the team and organization and 
elevating the contributions of 

371
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,320
others. 
Like that is how the best 

372
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,840
leaders are successful is by by 
doing that, and that is how you 

373
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:55,000
get a culture that really values
innovation is by creating that 

374
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,600
kind of environment. 
Yeah, IA 100% agree. 

375
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:06,680
I, I love that when you work 
with people who are maybe not so

376
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,760
keen on swallowing their pride 
and, you know, relieving 

377
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,920
themselves of their ego and 
their, their, you know, tight 

378
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,440
grip on their ego and maybe they
lack a little bit of humility. 

379
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:24,880
How do you approach influencing 
them to take a different 

380
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,520
approach, let's say? 
Because certainly you can, you 

381
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,520
can influence, but you can't 
necessarily control the ways in 

382
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,160
which they interact either in 
that present moment or in the 

383
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,520
future. 
And I ask this because, of 

384
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:43,760
course, with the listeners on 
the majority being in an HR role

385
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:48,240
or some sort of, you know, 
leadership role, there's always 

386
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,520
value in the tactical and how 
they can approach these things. 

387
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,240
Because inevitably we know 
there's a strong likelihood that

388
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,040
more than one person listening 
to this episode is thinking of 

389
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,080
that one person in their 
business who is very difficult 

390
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:05,440
with this. 
Yeah. 

391
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,040
And that's reality, right? 
Like you have some people, you 

392
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,000
know, even as an executive coach
working with an organization, 

393
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,520
you're going to have some people
who come in and they're like, 

394
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:15,840
I'm going to take advantage of 
this. 

395
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,840
I'm so ready to hear it all. 
And you're going to have some 

396
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,040
people who have more movement to
go in terms of like coach 

397
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:29,000
ability and willingness to see 
and work on on issues, right. 

398
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,680
I think feedback is the most 
powerful thing in these 

399
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,840
situations. 
And I think the framing of the 

400
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,120
feedback, we're like working 
with like a third party, whether

401
00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:45,640
it's through someone in HR or 
through a coach or somebody who 

402
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:50,160
can really help you understand 
that feedback is especially 

403
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,560
powerful. 
But I mean, I actually added to 

404
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,360
the variety of tools I use. 
I added a an assessment recently

405
00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:00,720
from a company called Genos, 
which is an emotional 

406
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,760
intelligence assessment that it 
also has a 360 version of it 

407
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,480
because I think safer leaders 
who have challenges certain 

408
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,880
areas of emotional intelligence.
The the feedback from other 

409
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:15,880
people is so valuable. 
And seeing it in a way where you

410
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,600
can actually see what the 
patterns and trends are can 

411
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,680
really help open somebody's eyes
up to it. 

412
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:26,280
And presenting it in a way that 
is helpful and constructive is 

413
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,120
also a big piece of that. 
So that that's usually my number

414
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:32,960
one thing is sometimes when 
somebody is not open to 

415
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,160
changing, they need to see it in
a different way. 

416
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,440
And like feedback is the most 
powerful way to do that. 

417
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,840
Yeah, that's great advice and I 
love that. 

418
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,640
There's also this reality that 
people can totally outsource 

419
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,320
that the way in which that 
feedback is delivered to 

420
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,640
someone. 
You know, this is this is to me 

421
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:53,480
is really the beauty of an 
executive coach. 

422
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,920
You bring them on, they're not a
part of the organization. 

423
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:01,240
They sell it to them straight. 
You know, it's like you need to 

424
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,680
do these things differently and 
you're all the reasons why. 

425
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,400
And here's how you do those 
things differently. 

426
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,920
And there isn't a any 
relationship breakdown in the 

427
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,040
delivery of feedback, you know, 
because of course, like I agree 

428
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,760
with you, feedback is exactly, 
this is exactly what feedback is

429
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,120
for. 
If not, you know, these other 

430
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,120
examples that we could use for 
where feedback can influence 

431
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:30,400
change, But sometimes it can be 
really difficult to be within 

432
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,800
the organization or within the 
team delivering that feedback. 

433
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,360
And they're, you know, 
unfortunately can be a 

434
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,320
degradation of relationships. 
Not to say it happens all the 

435
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,160
time, and certainly that's not a
reason to avoid giving feedback.

436
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,360
But I at least have found that 
especially with those who maybe 

437
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,320
are a little bit less willing to
change, not necessarily open to 

438
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,520
change, but willing to change or
think that they don't have 

439
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,640
anything they need to change, 
are sometimes best suited for 

440
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,480
working with a coach who can 
really get them to that next 

441
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,200
level. 
Because it's not necessarily the

442
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,720
case that they are 
underperformers or that they're 

443
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,600
bad leaders. 
It's just might be that they 

444
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,840
need to see themselves in a 
different light to your point. 

445
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,200
Yeah, yeah. 
They've one area or one 

446
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,600
particular, a couple of 
different behaviors that are 

447
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,840
holding them back. 
And yeah, that's like. 

448
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,680
Fine tuning those things, that 
can really make a huge 

449
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,760
difference for the organization 
on the whole. 

450
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,400
I mean, absolutely right? 
I love that. 

451
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:34,640
I think one final thought here 
is going back to what we talked 

452
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,760
about sort of at the beginning 
that, you know, this driving 

453
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,160
this culture of innovation 
really enables the best of 

454
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,280
people to kind of come out. 
And that there's this importance

455
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,440
in driving innovation and seeing
innovation as a part of a 

456
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,720
culture in order to achieve, you
know, even more as a team. 

457
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,200
And my, I guess really my final 
question for you is when you 

458
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:05,040
work with companies who have 
this innovative culture or where

459
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,240
innovation is embedded within 
the culture, what are some of 

460
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,400
the behaviors that you see 
either celebrated or that you 

461
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,680
see as being a regular part of 
people's interactions with one 

462
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,240
another or, you know, the 
business itself? 

463
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,240
Yeah, I love this question. 
Thanks. 

464
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,520
Yeah, I think there there's a 
few things that come to mind. 

465
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,680
I think part of it is having 
some kind of celebration of 

466
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,440
failure is a really powerful 
thing that can be integrated. 

467
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,600
And a lot of like when we're 
talking about culture, I think 

468
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,240
it's important to talk about 
like what are behaviors, 

469
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,320
rituals, norms and things that 
are that you see that are are 

470
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:50,160
representative of the culture. 
So having there's different ways

471
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,760
to do it. 
And sometimes it's just as 

472
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,000
simple as like a leader starting
with like here was my biggest 

473
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,760
screw up from this month and 
hear what I learned about it. 

474
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,640
What was yours, right? 
So like having something in 

475
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,560
there that really like 
destigmatizes failure and 

476
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,480
recognizes it as something that 
is normal. 

477
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,880
I think having a really sacred 
process for how idea generation 

478
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,320
happens that is that is specific
to the company that is like 

479
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,640
representative of their culture 
and is really enforced within 

480
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,320
those those rules and 
restrictions of it where you're 

481
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,200
like we are, we are not going 
into the evaluative part of 

482
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,400
this. 
We're not going into the 

483
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,160
conversion thinking right, like 
this is a space just for 

484
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,840
generation and for imagining 
like what if and and really 

485
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,760
holding to that within the 
company. 

486
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:45,080
And then I think also just 
really embracing play in some 

487
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,360
some degree, which doesn't 
necessarily, you know, I also 

488
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,400
come from a tech background to 
people always imagine like the 

489
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,760
Silicon Valley foosball tables 
and stuff. 

490
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,160
Like there's, there's a lot of 
ways to integrate play within a 

491
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,120
culture, but it is something 
that is so undervalued as 

492
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,320
adults. 
And like you said, like earlier 

493
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,200
in our conversation, some of 
this comes back to like the 

494
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,640
simplest things, like also like 
valuing play and going back to 

495
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,040
like who we are as children also
really feeds into that. 

496
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,320
And there's a lot of different 
ways you can do that within a 

497
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,360
culture. 
I love that. 

498
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,040
Thank you so much. 
I, I think the listeners 

499
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,640
hopefully are walking away with 
a lot of tangible ideas and 

500
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,800
things that they can either 
implement or celebrate. 

501
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,080
You know, we, we talked a lot 
about behaviors today and I 

502
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,040
think the best way to see more 
of the behaviors that we want is

503
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,080
to, to your point, celebrate 
those things and recognize and 

504
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,000
reward the behaviors you want to
see and not the ones you don't. 

505
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,240
And when we think about like our
childhoods and play and all of 

506
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,000
that, a big part of leading a 
team is also knowing what to 

507
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,560
reward and recognize and what 
not to reward and recognize. 

508
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,200
And I'm certainly not comparing 
adults to children, but it's 

509
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,520
kind of the same as when you're 
raising kids. 

510
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,960
It's like, you know, if one 
child hits the other, like 

511
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,640
you're not going to really want 
to have this huge reaction 

512
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,160
because especially depending on 
their age, they might see that 

513
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,080
as something that they want to 
continue to get out of you. 

514
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,280
And so, you know, rewarding the 
right things is a very specific 

515
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,320
anecdote, but rewarding the. 
Relative things is. 

516
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,680
Is the way to go. 
And I yeah, I think that that's 

517
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,160
amazing advice. 
So, Kristen, thank you so much. 

518
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:33,960
And aside from the listeners 
tuning into your podcast, yours 

519
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,920
and your husband's podcast, 
where else can they hear from 

520
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,480
you? 
And even aside, please plug your

521
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,200
podcast as well because it's a 
great one. 

522
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,840
Yeah, absolutely. 
Well, yeah, as we talked about 

523
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,000
the podcast, it's called Love 
and Leadership. 

524
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,400
It's on all the major platforms,
including wherever you're 

525
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,520
listening to this, I'm sure. 
And I am most active on 

526
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,040
LinkedIn. 
So Kristen Brun, Sharkey, I'm 

527
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,960
the only one with that 
combination of names. 

528
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:04,080
You can find me pretty easily. 
And I also, if you're interested

529
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,320
in learning more about any of 
the work that I do, my company 

530
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,240
website isimboldify.com. 
Amazing. 

531
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,200
Kristen, thank you so much. 
This was an amazing discussion 

532
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,560
and I think I think everything 
that you've shared with the 

533
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,960
listeners today hopefully will 
land as something that they can 

534
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,120
either think about, challenge 
within their own teams or bring 

535
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,160
to their own team. 
So thank you so much again. 

536
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,240
Thank you, I love this 
conversation so thank you so 

537
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,360
much for having me. 
Of course, hey, just before you 

538
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,720
go, don't forget to subscribe to
the show so that you are the 1st

539
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,400
to hear when an episode drops 
each week and maybe leave a five

540
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,240
star review and a comment about 
how much you loved this episode.

541
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,040
Plus, if you have someone in 
mind who would really enjoy this

542
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,680
episode, make sure you share it 
with them. 

543
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,600
Thank you so much for tuning in 
and I'll see you next week.