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Welcome to the Bringing the Human back to Human Resources
podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've
spent my entire professional career in HR.
Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people
and business with the aim to reconnect the two and create
meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the
podcast. Thank you so much for being here
for another week. Don't forget to rate, review,
and subscribe because if you're not subscribed, what are you
doing? Thank you so much for being
here. As you know, if you've been a
listener of my podcast for a while, you will already know
that relationships are something that I would say are really,
really important to me. And actually, they've been
extremely critical to the success of my own career and my
business as well. So I'm really excited to welcome
Brad Engler to the podcast and let me tell you a little bit
about Brad before we let Brad do all of the talking.
He is an author, advisor, and technologist with over 40 years
of experience in the private and public sectors.
Accenture for 22 years, including ten years as a
partner, and then at the University of Texas at Austin
for eight years, including seven years as the Chief Information
Officer. His recent book, Spheres of
Influence, How to Create and Nurture Authentic Business
Relationships, offers a practical guide to help emerging
and established leaders develop and perfect the critical, hard
skill of building effective and lasting professional
relationships. Which is why I am so enthused
for our discussion today. Because it is.
This is literally the most critical, if you ask me, the
most critical part of what can make or break someone's
experience and success. So welcome, Brad.
Thank you. Thanks for inviting me.
Oh my gosh, of course. And the listeners won't know
this, but we have tried a few times already to record, but
between like basically an Arctic blast in the South and various
challenges on my end, we are finally getting to record, which
is really nice. Sometimes the long-awaited
recording makes it all the more fun.
But as I kind of mentioned at the top of our session here,
relationships that I find to be really important.
And so I'd love to hear from you.
Given that relationships are also really important to you,
what kind of inspiration or influence did you have that led
to you writing spheres of influence?
Well, I was very fortunate over many years to have really good
mentors. And at the firm, from day one,
they taught you that the people you're working with, your
clients, your peers, someday maybe your boss maybe hiring you
to do something and, or maybe peers.
And the person who started with me 40 years ago became the chief
information officer of a large state agency the same year I
became the chief information officer at the university.
And so it just came true. And as a executive in the firm
or at all levels, you not only had a mentor, but you had
mentees. And it was just built into the
culture that training and mentorship was a core value.
And, you know, when I got to the university, I tried to help the
organization create those same skills.
Not hide in the ivory tower, but get out and meet with customers,
meet with their peers. And, you know, I mentored two or
three people. I still do that.
But I didn't feel that would scale, and so I wanted to
capture all these stories and so I could share it with a wider
audience. And that was really the genesis
for writing the book. That's amazing.
I think when I think about like my takeaways from spheres of
influence, what really stood out to me was obviously the spheres
that there are these internal and external spheres.
Of course, I mean, there's a visual there for a reason, but
also some of those core principles, especially when we
think of like, I have some notes here, goals and aspirations of
others, managing expectations, clearly caring about the success
of others. Like these are things that maybe
for some it's like, OK, yeah, fundamental, got it.
But actually it's really important to make note of it
because so much of these, so many of these things are not
happening day-to-day. And I'm curious, were these core
principles that, you know, were certainly felt throughout the
book? Were they something that you
learned through your own experiences, or were they things
that you felt you lacked from leaders or lacked from peers?
Or was it just kind of, you know, going through the motions
of your experiences and your takeaways?
Well, let's talk about the internal sphere.
So first is your boss and I learned that you can't wait for
your boss to help guide you. Sometimes you just have to ask
what are their goals and aspirations and it's OK to ask.
In fact, when I was the boss, I welcomed a discussion with my
direct reports of what are your goals, how can I help you and
setting expectations. I was bad at that in the
beginning of my career. I got much better later and and
then third, genuinely caring. When I got to the university, I
met with this professor who I'd known 15 years prior, crusty 40
year professor. And I said, give me some advice.
You guys get out of the office and tell people you give a damn.
And that was the best advice because you're not going to
build relationships hiding behind a screen in your office
that's. So true.
And I remember when you and I first spoke that that last point
you made in terms of the advice that you received as far as like
just get out there, like get out from behind the desk and like
talk to the people with whom you need to talk to the.
It really made me reflect on my own experience, especially back
in my retail days, because when, whenever I was in retail, you
know, there were always these roles like leader on duty,
manager on duty, right? And, and especially being in HR,
you kind of have those roles in retail.
And then you also, if you're working in a store like I was
for many years, you also have to be a manager on duty just like
any other sales or department manager.
And one of the things that I was really passionate about was
being on the floor with the team because that as an HR person,
like that's where you get you, that's where you build the
relationships, that's where you get all of your information.
It's where you have the most fun.
It's also where you find out things that you might need to
find out in order to solve some problems also.
So I think that advice is so well stated and it's kind of
Evergreen. Like it doesn't matter what
industry you're in, what job you have, have it really just it's
agnostic to all of that. That's right.
You know, I learned long ago to go to people's offices to meet
with them so I would not have them come to me and, you know,
come to the ivory tower. So my all my direct reports at
the university, I would go to their office.
Well why would I do that? One, I get to rock, walk across
campus and get the energy of the campus. 2 I bump into customers
and I bump into my peers. 3 Their team sees me coming to
their boss every week at like clockwork trying to help their
boss be successful. So it's showing the flag,
showing the support. And you know, same thing with
your customers and your peers. One of my peers at the
university was in charge of public safety.
Well, it wasn't if someone would go wrong, it's when it would go
wrong. And over my eight years, we had
a bomb scare, we had a shooting, we had a murder, you know, so
we, we had 100,000 people in the football stadium every Saturday
in the fall. But I would meet with my peer
every month and we would talk about what's going well, what's
coming up, what could we do better.
And then once a year, we get our teams together and we practice.
What happens if there's an ice storm?
What happens if there's a hurricane?
What happens if the power goes out?
Lo and behold, a year later, the power went out.
And we, we generate our own power and back up by the city.
But they both went out and but we were prepared.
And the bomb scare, I was out on the mall with my phone.
Well, all my computer and everything in the office.
But we had a standard operating procedure.
We all got on a conference bridge and we that's connected
to the executive leaders. And so we basically managed the
whole issue out in the mall with my phone.
Oh my gosh, she it's like poem for 2025 almost it's like, you
know, everything is done by the phone.
Everything that we have the capability of doing is in our
hands. I mean, it's amazing.
I obviously we don't ever want to deal with things like that,
but my take away from your story is, is that preparation is not
only key, but actually, to be frank, my first reaction was
like, man, Brad's probably an amazing peer.
That was actually what was going through my head when you were
saying that. Because, you know, there, there
are times where we work with folks who aren't so
collaborative or aren't, you know, really focused on just
working as a team and working together and getting, you know,
moving the needle together. And it's the Co workers or the
peers who do that and who care about that or care about the
success of others who are like the best people to work with.
I'm sure everyone is thinking about someone or just really
wishing that they could work with you one of the other.
Well, I asked my direct reports to also meet with their peers
across campus. So you know, so 7 direct
reports, we all had about 10 peer relationships and every
week we would get together and talk about what did, what did
you hear how any rumours out there?
And, and you don't hear rumours if you're in your office, you
know, so I had a you don't know what the.
Streets are saying. So I had a rumour from my public
safety guy who said I heard a rumor that you don't have enough
diesel in the generators at the data center.
And I said, you know, that's a darn good rumor.
I'll go check. It turned out the generators
from the natural gas. So it was, Oh my God, there's
great rumor though. But he was able to snuff it out
immediately, right? And, and we would help each
other that way. My direct reports would go meet
with their peers. And it was like a nervous
system, you know, you get feedback, two way communication.
I had a woman who worked for me who reminded me when she read
the manuscript of the time I forced her to go meet with the
IT director in a department. And she said, I thought you were
crazy. They hate us.
And I said, well, better to be in them in the tent than outside
the tent throwing rocks at us. And I would meet with her, you
know, the department chair. So there were reasons they hated
us. There's some bad behavior before
I came in and they had a litany of things that went wrong.
So we just apologized, said we'll we'll not do that again.
And she over nine months, every month met with this other woman.
And as we got better and more predictable, guess what?
That person became an advocate for us.
And when she became an advocate, her boss became an advocate.
So it went from hating us to being an advocate.
But she thought I was crazy. No, You know, it actually makes
me think of some of my own experiences.
But sometimes I think leaders think that that process of
changing someone's perception can be a very long process.
But actually it doesn't have to be, because once you say you're
going to do something and then you actually do it and you do it
again and you do it again and you do it again and you just
keep doing it. Yeah.
And you have the consistency of following through on what you've
said you're set out to do. People then trust you.
And that that establishment of trust is obviously a core tenant
in relationships. And you've you touch on that
throughout your book also. And kind of coming back to this
internal sphere of influence, You mentioned already
relationship with the boss, relationships with other, you
know, executive leaders, and then also with direct reports.
And a big part of that, especially the relationship with
direct reports that I at least took away was this importance on
fostering trust and transparency.
And so when I think about shifting perceptions, I was just
speaking with someone about how leaders, whether they want to
acknowledge it or not, can, can and do make or break people's
experiences in their careers. If someone has an amazing leader
when they first start out, that's something that sets them.
I mean, they are so lucky. That sets them apart from a lot
of people from their first experiences and work and for the
rest of their career they think about that person.
On contrary. If someone has as a leader that
maybe doesn't have their best interests in mind or any of
these core principles that we've already kind of talked about
similarly that stays with people.
I've, I'm sure you've also spoken with people who are like,
I had a terrible leader and it's like 20 years ago, they told me
and they just don't, it's not that they don't get over it,
it's that it had such an impact on them.
And so when I think about again, like, you know, trust and
transparency, leaders really need to think about the impact
and the influence that they have.
And they have to, they have to acknowledge that they are not
the same as everyone else. They have this role now where
they're leading people and they have to assume that
responsibility and treat it with care, right?
Well, they need to walk the walk.
So, you know, in IT world you could work 24 hours a day.
I mean, there's no end to it, but we established norms and
values for the organization. And then I would not respond to
emails after business hours. I would not.
I would go on vacation. I would do training.
I would make sure they did training, make sure they did
their emails. If someone skipped orientation,
we'd find them and get them into orientation.
You know, it's like no exception.
But one of our values was family first.
Well, why? Why?
Why did we do that? Well, I live in Austin, TX, lot
of high tech here. All the big tech firms are here.
I cannot compete on salary, but what I can compete on isn't, you
know, you work an 8 hour day and then go home, see the family.
So I had this network engineer and he was got a big offer from
a startup and a lot of money, equity, blah blah blah.
They would feed him, do his dry cleaning.
And I said, look, I don't say this for everybody, but if you
don't like it, you can come back.
And literally 2 weeks later he calls and he goes, this place is
a zoo. They feed me and do my dry
cleaning because I never go home.
I took the job to help my family, but I don't see my
family anymore. Can I come back?
It's like, of course you can. And he's still there 15 years
later. Wow, you know, it's when you
started to say that they were promising food and dry cleaning.
I already knew where you're going with that because you
know, there's companies always hopefully offer really great
benefits, but companies that are offering benefits like that are
probably really trying to ensure that people feel like working
there is worth it. Like they had, you know,
company. And, and it's not to say that
it's bad, like working in a, a zoo, literal or figuratively is
not necessarily a bad thing. It's just like where it kind of
depends on where someone is in their lives.
Like if someone has a family, that's probably not going to
really be a match for them. Whereas if someone is like, you
know, just trying to get as much experience under their belt,
maybe they're single, maybe they're not, maybe they really
don't mind not being home a lot. I mean, it kind of depends, but
those things I think play a big role.
And it's interesting because I think that as we grow in our
careers and we gain additional experience and wisdom, if you
will, these are things that we become aware of as we grow and
as our lives do change or we go through different milestones or
life changes. So, but I think it's a testament
to your leadership actually that he wanted to, that he did come
back, not not just that he wanted to come back, but that he
actually did. Very difficult safe asking, you
know, he, he was comfortable asking on the setting
expectations. I had a situation with a
customer where large university, they had a big program that they
wanted me to lead and it was in October and I said to the
Provost and CFO, I'd love to help you guys.
However, in the summer, I have a long-awaited vacation to
Australia. And I was supposed to go last
year, but work cancelled. So we have the passports for the
family, we have the tickets. So I need to go for three weeks
in June. And they're like, OK, no
problem. And we got to April, made a big
milestone achievement. So yay, things were going
clickety clack. And then in May we're meeting
with the president, which we meet every month.
And the President, I said, I just wanted to remind you as I
have the last three months and in June, I'll be going to
Australia and his hand started shaking and I'm in slow motion
canceling the vacation. And the CFO and Provost, Brad,
wait a minute, hold on, Mr. President.
When Brad joined us in October, we agreed that we would let him
go on this vacation. Diane's in charge.
When he's gone, he says this is a good time to go.
We ship a polar commitment customer supporting my vacation.
Awesome. And 10 years later, I'm having
dinner with his wife and and my wife and we talked about that
story and he goes while you were gone.
We were scared to death, but they upheld their commitment.
Yeah, I love that. I mean, commitment is a big
deal. And this is the same kind of
thing that underpins how you change perception and how you
actually change cultures is through mutual commitment,
mutual ownership. And I love that.
I I love that you were like, oh crap, I'm not going to
Australia. My wife is going to hate me.
What am I, I'm going to do now because like, because I know
that I have, I've been there. I know other listeners have been
there where you're like, I, I talked about it already.
They said I could go. Their reaction is concerning.
I'm going to have to cancel. I'm really annoyed.
My partner's going to be annoyed.
And for you to be able to just, you know, woosa and be able to
get the, the relief that, you know, they made this commitment
to you. They trust that you've managed
your, you know, quote, UN quote business well enough to be able
to rely on your team and others who continue to, you know, keep
the ball rolling. And for what it's worth, I think
also leaders who maybe because there are certainly leaders who
break those commitments or you know, are so deeply afraid when
someone does go on vacation that even if it comes from a good
place, because they value that person's effort so much.
It really does a disservice to the person who is going on
vacation or needs to go on a leave or whatever it is.
And. Well, I got, I got better.
I got better at it later in my career, yeah.
Exactly, exactly. It's like we have to we have to
set a standard that people need to prioritize their time as
well. And at the end of the day, like,
has a company ever stopped or an organization ever stopped
running when someone goes on vacation?
It's not, of course not. Right.
Like never. Yeah, literally never.
Well, I had, I had two phrases I used through the book, which is
1 is use your words. So if you want something, you
need to tell people that. And the other was people are not
mind readers. So as if you're a boss, you
can't read people's mind if they don't tell you, you don't know.
So you need to. So just the sending and managing
expectation very simple. But if you if you don't do it,
then you'll be wrapped around the axle the whole time.
I had a boss who is a type A boss.
Everything was urgent, urgent and I was trying to leave one
evening to have dinner with my wife and I.
The phone call phone rings literally at 5:00.
Pick it up. It's the boss, the partner, and
she's a type A personality. I need a white paper, a white
paper and it I literally said whoa.
I didn't say no because no would set her off like a rocket.
I just said whoa. And I said, well, when do you
need this white paper? Let me check my calendar.
I need it in two weeks. Sounded like overnight, you
know? Yeah, right.
How many pages do you, should this white paper be 03 pages?
I was thinking 10. Do you have an example of a
white paper that I could use? Yeah.
Yeah, I asked David. I did it on XYZ Corporation 10
years ago. Well, guess what?
I went home now. Before I before I learned to say
whoa, I would have stayed up all night.
OOP cancelled dinner, stayed up all night, delivered A10 page
paper and she yelled at me. But instead I got some mental
space and time just to really clearly understand.
So the next day I gave it to one of my staff persons.
So they said you have 10 days to work on this and we delivered it
early. That's amazing.
It's a great story. And when I think about that,
it's like you, I can only imagine, actually, I can't
imagine the, the emotional impact if you were to do all of
that work without really understanding the clear
expectations. Because in this, in this
situation, you're also managing up, which is a very important
skill for those listening. The better you can manage up,
the, the much happier you'll be, I think in your careers.
But it's a hard skill, of course, but not only are you
managing up, but the, the emotional impact that was the
potential emotional impact. I should say in the event that
you did deliver A10 page paper overnight and you cancelled
dinner, right? Just for it to then not be what
that person wants or needs. At that point, you're so
dissatisfied because you're like, I spent all of my time.
I, I cancelled all these things and while that type of
commitment also is great and work to really have a drive to
achieve and deliver on on standards and expectations.
What I love that you shared is that you took a moment, you
didn't say no, you said well, and you took a moment to really
ask questions. And this is the same, you know,
it goes both ways because this is the same thing that I try to,
as a call to action to leaders, try to ask them all the time,
like rather than jumping to assumptions or conclusions to
understand how do we ask questions before coming to
conclusions on things. And so with projects, when
you're the recipient of something of something to work
on, it's kind of the same thing where asking clarifying
questions can save you a lot of time.
So I, I had a direct report who reminded me that I would often
slow her down. She was zipping to the
conclusion before she actually understood what the problem was.
And I would, and it cursed, prove her a little crazy.
And I was like, let's, there's no rush.
Took us 40 years to get this way.
Another day doesn't matter. And you know, by just slowing
down and really understanding what the issues are, sometimes
you don't have to do anything. It works itself out, but she
said she appreciated that I pulled her back from just
running straight into the the fire.
Right, I was going to say that sounds like me.
Was I your direct report that you're talking to?
Because my, my boss recently, you know, we talked about how
fast I move. And so this is something like
even when I was reading, you know, spheres of influence, I
was really learning a lot about myself.
And even as I've just talked about before that, you know,
asking questions before jumping to conclusions, even with the
best intentions, like someone like me who is type A and very
fast in momentum and movement and getting things done.
It's like when you ask questions, you actually you
just, you can still move fast, but you can move fast in a much
more effective and much more accurate.
Way you don't want to be an unguided missile.
No, that's that's. Definitely true.
So I had AI had a guy who a guy, you know, he shared a story with
me. He goes, I was working for this
company and all of a sudden my boss started kind of boxing me
out of meetings and not listening to me.
And you know, after about 3 weeks I got some time on the
calendar and I said, did I do something wrong?
And the boss just looked up and said, oh, I have trouble at
home. I didn't realize it was
affecting me. And he said, did I do the right
thing? I said, yes, you had the courage
to ask. You didn't quit.
You didn't suffer. You know, you had the courage to
actually ask. And he said it improved
dramatically right after that. I'm sure, I'm sure.
And you know, for that, that manager too, it like creates a
bit of a safe space for them. And there's like mutual
vulnerability because the the person who's like this is
happening and I don't really love it is obviously managing up
there, but is also being vulnerable to your point and
courageous in addressing something that they weren't
really happy about. And this does, I think, play a
pretty significant role in the external spheres of influence,
which we haven't talked about much just yet.
We a little bit, but you know, that's customer relationships
and peer and vendor relationships.
And that I think sometimes, at least from what I've seen, I'm
curious to hear your thoughts. Sometimes I think that those
relationships are harder in some ways because you don't
necessarily feel that you can createspace it.
Maybe it's a little bit harder to be courageous because you're
afraid of the professional pressure.
Maybe if especially in a maybe a sales environment where a
customer satisfaction actually has a huge financial influence
and that is the case in probably any industry.
But what are your thoughts on on that and how people can
prioritize their customers needs and deliver on those
expectations while also maintaining their their values
and their, you know, courageousness in their own
right? So the keyword you used was
prioritized. Not all customers are equal and
you need to step back periodically and say who are my
best customers and how can I help them be more successful?
Accenture 80 to 90% of the customers are repeat customers.
Well, why is that? Because they it, they were
successful in the past and they want to be successful.
But I had some customers who didn't really want a partnership
and they had kind of let's extract stuff from the vendor.
In fact, it's like a Kabuki theater.
Every week she would ask me for free stuff and I said, stop
asking me for free stuff. I don't do free stuff.
I'd be happy to do a change order.
And at the end, because her management wanted her to do
that. I mean, she didn't really want
to do it, but management said go get free stuff out of our
vendors. And at the end of the project I
said I'm never working for you again.
And she goes, I don't blame. You she's like.
I wouldn't either. And we had a good laugh over
that. And then I had a on the vendor
side. Not all your vendors are equal.
We spent 10s of millions of dollars at the university.
Well, who are your most important vendors?
Just look at where you're spending and then build those
relationships. So network computer learning
management system. So in a university rely on the
learning management system. We had an old buggy learning
management system that the vendor only showed up once a
year to get the check, the maintenance check, which was 10%
more than the prior year. They just didn't care.
Of course they didn't. They took it, took it for
granted because they thought the switching costs would be too
much. Yeah, 54,000 students, 4000
faculty, 21 thousand staff. Yeah, it is hard to switch.
But the students hated the vendor, the product.
It was clunky and slow. Faculty didn't like it.
So we went out to the market, looked at all the learning
management systems, picked a modern, new, more secure
learning management system unanimously endorsed by the
faculty and staff committee. And it took us two years, but we
transitioned to that new platform which has been in place
now for 10 years. And I was so happy to say
sayonara to that vendor who just didn't care.
Yeah, that's like, that's probably what's the word I'm
thinking of, like extremely gratifying.
Took two years. Cathartic, maybe.
Well, and the Vice President for Sales of the company would reach
out to me periodically and ask me how it's going.
I mean that's customer care and and some things we're so big
that they had to change the product to work in our size
institution. Well, they went on, they made
those changes and went on to sell it to a lot of other
research one universities. So it was mutually beneficial.
Right. Amazing.
I love that. And I love the term customer
care rather than customer service because service is so
transactional. Customer care is more about the
relationship. I I love that.
And and you're right about the prioritizing and when I think
about like HR leaders, you know, we often at least I am familiar
with this phrasing, we talk about internal and external
customer. So the internal customer are all
of the employees and the external customer are the people
or customers who our internal customers are affecting or
impacting or working with. And when I think about our role
as HR leaders or really any business leader for that matter,
I do think that there is a customer care initiative there.
Like if we are not answering someone's questions in a timely
manner, we're not approachable, we're not really solving
problems or interested in solving problems or, you know,
just all those stigmas that we hear about HR leaders.
If we're doing any of that stuff, we're not really
fulfilling the needs of our internal customer.
So I love something that I really love about your books,
Spheres of Influence is that the these concepts can really be
applied regardless of where someone works within an
organization and also regardless of what industry they're.
In and internal as well as external customers, you know
it's you know, understanding goals and aspirations, setting
and managing expectations and genuinely caring applies to all
those relationships. Absolutely.
And with that, I mean, I have taken up a significant amount of
your time and I, I think that you and I both could probably
talk about relationships and the importance of these really
strong, trusting and mutually supportive relationships
probably for another 40 minutes. But in the interest of time, I
would love for you to maybe share with the listeners where
they can connect with you, where they can read spheres of
influence and where they can, you know, maybe learn more about
how they can influence their own environments and their own
experiences. I'm going to send you a
customized link that will, when they click on it, will take them
to a free sample of the book. It will also have a second tab
to find how to buy the book. There's ebook, audiobook, and
then third how to schedule time on my calendar.
So I will send that right after this.
Amazing. And we'll make sure that those
are that that link, excuse me, is in the show notes so that
everyone can very easily just click and not have to worry
about a thing. Make it nice and simple over
here. But Brad, thank you so much and
thank you for writing a book that I think really does a very
good job talking about the impact and and the necessity of
having these types of relationships and the focus on
these types of relationships. So thank you so much.
Oh, you're welcome. Hey, just before you go, don't
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