1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,280 HR isn't just about policies and payroll, it's about people. 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,120 But when our tools are clunky and disconnected, it's hard to 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:07,760 stay focused on what matters most. 4 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,320 And I think we can all agree that people matter most. 5 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,920 That's why we listen to my podcast in the 1st place, I 6 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,600 hope. And this is ultimately why I'm 7 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,560 super excited to tell you about Intuit QuickBooks Payroll. 8 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,920 QuickBooks Payroll isn't just for accounting and it will 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,320 totally help you manage it all. QuickBooks Payroll brings 10 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,280 everything together. 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Welcome to the Bringing the 31 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,240 human back to human Resources podcast. 32 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,400 I'm Tracy Chernoff and I've spent my entire professional 33 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,120 career in HR Each week we'll explore the delicate balance 34 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,680 between people and business with the aim to reconnect the two and 35 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,880 create meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 36 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,680 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 37 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,720 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 38 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,360 back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the 39 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,480 Bringing the human back to human Resources podcast. 40 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,640 We are coming at you live sort of not really with our last. 41 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,800 I think it's our last. Maybe I should check actually 42 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,080 before I commit to this, but I think it's our last Policy Pulse 43 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,520 episode of 2025. No, it totally is. 44 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,000 I just checked. I am not incorrect. 45 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:12,800 It's crazy. I think we've done so many of 46 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,520 these, maybe like six of these or so over the last 6 or so 47 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,240 months since we started these Policy Pulse segments. 48 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,040 And I we've gotten a lot of great feedback. 49 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,400 I certainly have seen a ton of comments around these segments. 50 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,000 So I'm glad everyone's enjoying them and we will continue them 51 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,440 in 2026 as well. But as a reminder, Brian 52 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,720 Driscoll is my Co host on these segments and he is an attorney 53 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,520 and helps us to navigate all of these very interesting moments 54 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,440 in time where things change or may change and we need to know 55 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,920 as HR leaders how we navigate those changes. 56 00:02:48,920 --> 00:02:54,160 So for this November episode of the Policy Pulse and last of 57 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,560 2025, we're going to start off with this, this first topic, 58 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,960 which is that there is a new EEOC chair, Andrea Lucas. 59 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,440 She was sworn in last week. So by the time we're recording 60 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,360 this, it actually is last week because, well, two weeks by the 61 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,000 time this launches, I guess two weeks ago. 62 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,560 And the agency's ability. Yeah, exactly. 63 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:16,320 Perfect. Thank you. 64 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,120 So the agency's ability to take action is now restored. 65 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,200 Lucas, who is an appointee by President Trump, has built her 66 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,520 career questioning corporate DEI initiatives and emphasizing race 67 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,800 and sex neutral enforcement. That means we're likely heading 68 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,000 into a period where the EEOC reinterprets long standing 69 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,120 protections in ways that rollback progress made under the 70 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,440 Biden administration. Brian, I know that there are a 71 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,840 number of things that could potentially change with this new 72 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:50,040 appointing of Andrea Lucas, but do you mind walking us through 73 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,280 what those potential changes are? 74 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,920 Yeah, sure. And I think just to restate what 75 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,680 you just said one more time for everybody, it is potential. 76 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,920 None of this is none of this is actual yet. 77 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:05,640 These are just things that we will most likely see in some 78 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:09,280 way, shape or form. So big picture, we're we're 79 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,840 going to see continued rollback of DEI. 80 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,399 We're expecting to see a lot of guidance from the EEOC about 81 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:21,720 rules treating some diversity efforts as possible 82 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:28,240 discrimination against against majority, majority employees. 83 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,760 So that means that, and this is advice that I think we've been 84 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,920 giving every time we've talked about DEI programs this year, is 85 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,440 that you need to make sure that your DEI programs are not quota 86 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:46,040 based, they're not preferential. You need to audit your programs. 87 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,960 This doesn't mean that you can't have DEI programs, you 88 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,960 absolutely can. But what it means is that you 89 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,120 need to take some steps to audit those programs and make sure 90 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,680 that you're going to be compliant with some of these 91 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,640 rollbacks that we're most likely going to see. 92 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,360 Another one that I definitely think is unfortunately going to 93 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:10,800 be on the, on the audit block for the new EEOC is the Pregnant 94 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,240 Workers Fairness Act. We're probably going to see 95 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,920 rollbacks of protected leave for that essentially for for people 96 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,720 who aren't intimately familiar with it. 97 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,360 The easiest way to sum up the the Pregnant Workers Fairness 98 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:30,840 Act is that it provides ADA like benefits and rights to pregnant 99 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:33,280 workers. That's the simplest way to to 100 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:36,400 make that comparison. So what does HR need to do if 101 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,360 this happens? Or in anticipation of this? 102 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,640 Simply as with everything, monitor closely. 103 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,440 These accommodation policies may need to be rewritten if the 104 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,440 Pregnant Workers Fairness Act is rolled back in any fashion. 105 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,280 I think this one is going to be a challenge for a lot of 106 00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:00,000 employers to to handle correctly and they're going to have some 107 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,400 pushback from employees. So you may need to create your 108 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,760 own internal programs to sort of counteract some of the rollbacks 109 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,080 we see at the federal level. Well, we're also expecting to. 110 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,600 See, I have actually have a question about that too. 111 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:19,880 Is there, I mean, I think there is, but is there protection 112 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:27,480 under the ADA for pregnancy already or is the the the impact 113 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,280 that the pregnant, the pregnant Workers Fairness Act also 114 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:34,200 includes like abortion related leaves that the ADA might not 115 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,560 necessarily the pregnant? That's exactly right. 116 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,080 The so the ADA provides for job protected leave. 117 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,840 So if you're out on leave, your your job is is protected. 118 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:49,320 The Pregnant Workers Fairness Act also like you said, provides 119 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:54,640 for some expanded benefits, expanded protections around 120 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,200 abortion related leave. So you can take leave for a 121 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:02,720 couple of days to go to go have a procedure if, if you need to, 122 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,560 to recover from that procedure. That is, that is protected under 123 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,800 the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act, which will probably go away 124 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,720 under under this new EEOC leadership. 125 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,960 Now, that's not to say audit that states that have similar 126 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,760 laws and we'll talk about this. This is another theme that you 127 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,760 and I have talked about a lot in these in these segments is that 128 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:32,160 states have some pregnant workers acts of their own on the 129 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,720 books or have different laws that protect pregnant workers or 130 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,040 for abortion related leave. So if you're in one of those 131 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,720 states, you have to pay attention to those state laws. 132 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,680 The general rule of thumb is you always go with the stricter, the 133 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,440 stricter law. So if there, if the federal law 134 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,120 doesn't, if there's no federal law saying anything about 135 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,240 protection for pregnant workers, but you are in California and 136 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,160 there is a law saying that you have protection for pregnant 137 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,000 workers, then you need to follow that California law. 138 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,800 Got it. And then another question I'm 139 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,800 curious about if let's say a woman does go and, and have an 140 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:14,200 abortion or similar procedure, they in theory don't have to 141 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,320 even disclose that that's what they're going to receive from 142 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,200 their, their, you know, to that when they communicate to their 143 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,880 employer, could they potentially, let's say it's 144 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,400 rolled, rolled back rather than, you know, cuz I think people 145 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,880 generally kind of like freak out when these things happen, 146 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,679 Rightfully so. They're, it's concerning when 147 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,440 something that you have is then taken away, or I should say have 148 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,400 access to, is taken away. But let's say for all intents 149 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,120 and purposes, it's rolled back and someone does have an 150 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,840 abortion. Could they just receive a 151 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,680 doctor's note saying that they need time off from work because 152 00:08:49,680 --> 00:08:52,800 of a medical procedure or a procedure, not give any 153 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,200 information and still have coverage at least? 154 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,840 But I guess maybe it would depend on the state and the 155 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,480 company specifics around, like what's covered. 156 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,840 But in most cases, when you have something that's like a personal 157 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:09,680 procedure, you could always use sick time. 158 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,840 I don't know. I'm just thinking of like other 159 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,080 ways that someone could still have the coverage that they need 160 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,920 without needing to disclose, you know, what they're getting done. 161 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,160 Yeah, you're right. There are other options. 162 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,520 You know, you can use sick days, you can use PTO. 163 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,040 The whole point of of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act is 164 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,280 so that you don't have to tap into these. 165 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,800 This other. Time off bucket, Yeah, in 166 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,920 theory, yes, you you could do some of those things that you 167 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,360 mentioned. I do think that's a really 168 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,280 interesting question because I do think we will see some things 169 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:49,880 like that, especially in some really red states that are 170 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:55,040 already sort of putting the hammer down on, on abortion 171 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:00,160 care, abortion procedures, even out of their state borders. 172 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,400 So I think that's going to be an interesting, an interesting 173 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:09,280 legal battle honestly, that that will probably happen if, if 174 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,240 these, if the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act is, is rolled back. 175 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,240 I, I think that that is absolutely something we could 176 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:21,960 see and I think that that employers need to understand 177 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,480 sort of where the line is on what they can request from 178 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:27,760 employees. Exactly. 179 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,200 To your point, if someone needs to go and get an abortion, do 180 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,000 they have to say, I'm taking three days off to go get an 181 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,120 abortion? No, they don't. 182 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:40,240 So like employers need to sort of understand where that line is 183 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,920 on how much they they can request documentation, sure, but 184 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,200 what can it be? It can. 185 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,560 It can in some cases simply be a one line note from the doctor 186 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:51,920 saying that your employee was out for these three days due to 187 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,160 a medical procedure. Right. 188 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,200 Anyway, continue. Thank you. 189 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,400 I asked you a bunch of questions related to that. 190 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,640 No, I think, I, I think it's important to, to discuss these 191 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,080 things because it, it, there, there is a lot of nuance to all 192 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,280 of these things and the EOC. Yeah, yeah, for sure. 193 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,960 Often not great at giving real specific guidance to to some of 194 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,800 these topics. So the next thing on on the list 195 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,000 of of potential rollbacks that we could see are religious and 196 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,560 gender identity conflicts. I'm expecting that we will 197 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:28,080 probably see some stronger protections for employees 198 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,800 reciting citing religious objections. 199 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,840 We'll probably see narrow, narrower interpretations of 200 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,600 gender identity and possible new rules around bathroom use 201 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,400 pronoun use. It it's, it's going to be 202 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,760 another one of those contentious issues that I think we'll see. 203 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,560 And I think, you know, the kind of a theme with all of these 204 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:56,160 things. I, I think with this new EEOC 205 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,560 leadership and, and with some unprecedented terminations of, 206 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:04,600 of some other EEOC members earlier this year, I think we're 207 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,680 going to see the EEOC turn into more of a, more of a, a, a, a 208 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:13,880 policy body instead of an investigatory body. 209 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,520 I think we're going to see fewer investigations, broadly 210 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,000 speaking. I think we're going to see more 211 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,040 targeted investigations, religious and gender identity 212 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,560 being being one of those potential categories. 213 00:12:28,680 --> 00:12:31,200 Yeah, I I can. I could see that too. 214 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,000 I mean, it's interesting, it all comes back to that one segment 215 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,440 that we did where we talked about the whiplash of being in 216 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,120 HR that, you know, every every four years. 217 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,040 And even within those four years, we're like back and forth 218 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,760 and back and forth. And you know, how do we, how do 219 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,920 we adjust and, and adapt? And also, I think to your point, 220 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,880 too, that depending on the state protection, some of this, you 221 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,720 know, might not really have as much of an impact, like for 222 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:03,360 people like me in New York, where they're pretty strong 223 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:09,680 protections for workers. But it's definitely, definitely 224 00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:12,520 interesting and we'll have to continue to watch, especially as 225 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,600 we go into 2026. Absolutely. 226 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,880 And I think that I think that we'll see sort of related to the 227 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,000 religious and gender identity. I think we'll also see some 228 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,920 reverse discrimination enforcement. 229 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:28,080 I think they're the EEOC going to the sort of targeted 230 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,760 investigation comment that I just made. 231 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:34,080 I think we'll see the EEOC give give new weight to claims of of 232 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,640 alleged reverse discrimination and, and I think I think we'll 233 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,480 see some of that as well. Yeah, should be interesting to 234 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,880 see. I don't, I guess I'm, I'm 235 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,360 holding my breath or maybe I'm not, am I? 236 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,440 I don't know if I'm holding my breath actually. 237 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,560 I have no idea what I'm doing. All I know is that it'll be 238 00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:58,080 it'll be interesting to see how things shake out. 239 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,920 And then, you know, I feel like also with these like 240 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,560 governmental changes, like it takes so long for changes to 241 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,560 generally speaking, actually be executed on that. 242 00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:13,920 Sometimes it's like there's, it feels like sometimes there's all 243 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,640 of this commotion that's created because of the, you know, like 244 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:23,040 huge, like polarizing changes. And then it's like the changes 245 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,120 made for a year and then you go back, you know, and then there's 246 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,280 the whiplash again. So maybe I am holding my breath, 247 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,240 maybe I'm not. I don't know what I'm doing, 248 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,760 like I said. I, I, I think at least speaking 249 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,760 for myself, I think I'm definitely holding my breath on 250 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:44,240 some of these things because it, it not only is there like to 251 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,200 your point about, you know, once you have a right, it's really 252 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,440 hard to, to live without that, right? 253 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,320 And I think we're, we're seeing that, you know, we saw that with 254 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,240 the overturning of Roe a few years ago. 255 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,960 And, and we're seeing that in, in different states that are 256 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:05,440 trying to go even further. I, I think that that that's sort 257 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,280 of the collective breath holding at the moment is like, what's 258 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,280 next? What other rights am I going to 259 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,880 lose? And so I, yeah. 260 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,400 And I think to your point of the whiplash, I think that's, that's 261 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,840 part of it. Like it is, it's chaotic, all of 262 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,160 this. I mean, HR has never been, well, 263 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:26,920 I don't want to speak in absolutes. 264 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,640 HR has rarely been a stable environment. 265 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,320 You've always, you're always dealing with something that's 266 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,360 coming up. But this seems like more chaos 267 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,440 than normal. This seems like it's just 268 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,160 constant whiplash, constant head spinning of like, where are we 269 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,520 going now? What am I doing? 270 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,480 And I think in some states, like you said, New York, Illinois, 271 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,600 California, Washington, a few others, they are creating some 272 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,040 of that stability in the absence of that stability from the 273 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,280 federal government. Totally, totally. 274 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:06,200 Yeah, I guess we'll see then. And this is a, there is no great 275 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,120 way, way to segue into the second topic, as you know. 276 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,520 But because like what? What is the segue? 277 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,000 But I'll let everyone know that it has to do with a really 278 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:23,960 strange, bizarre ability. It like lack of ability for 279 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,600 someone to think critically, I would say. 280 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,520 And so rather than introduce the title, I'm just going to read 281 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,760 through what we've got here. So an employee, I think in 282 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,040 Texas, actually, if I am recalling what I quickly looked 283 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,040 up just before an employee thought it would be hilarious to 284 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,440 show up to the office Halloween party dressed as a suicide 285 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,200 bomber and was shocked when he got fired. 286 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:51,320 See, there is no great way to segue into that sentence other 287 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,760 than what the heck was this person thinking on so many 288 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,080 levels, which Ryan and I did definitely have some discourse 289 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,680 around this before we started recording. 290 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,599 And so this person's reaction tells you everything, or the 291 00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,400 reaction in general, I should say, tells you everything about 292 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,079 the company's culture. Somehow this employee thought 293 00:17:11,079 --> 00:17:15,480 that that costume would be OK at this particular company or at 294 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:16,920 least then no one would call him out. 295 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,839 And that is the problem that so many of us has have seen many 296 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:25,640 times, certainly Brian and I. And what happens here is not 297 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,640 just that one person makes a bad choice. 298 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,160 The bigger issue for HR is having other employees wondering 299 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:32,800 if they're going to do anything about it. 300 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:38,040 That what a wonderful way to to sum that up, Brian, by the way, 301 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,360 because it is true. It puts, you know, naturally 302 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:45,080 this is, I think if everyone should realize why this is not 303 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:51,120 OK, but there is or I should say, and there is so much 304 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:57,120 pressure that's put on HR and leadership to do something when 305 00:17:57,120 --> 00:17:58,920 someone has done something wrong. 306 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,480 And that pressure, I think we can all, we, we can all probably 307 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,680 feel that we know exactly what that feels like. 308 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,080 Oh my gosh, now I need to respond. 309 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,520 What does the company response look like? 310 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,840 Is it strong enough? Is it not strong enough? 311 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,000 Do we fire someone? Do we not fire someone? 312 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,640 And you know, you know, that that I think is it's not a 313 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,160 conundrum. It's not nuanced because 314 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,200 there's, there's, there's some, some things I think were good 315 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,960 and bad or right and wrong or very black and white like this. 316 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,080 And yet based on what we just talked about that this company 317 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:41,760 culture is kind of seen in this person's decision, I would 318 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,760 imagine maybe for them there was more discussion than maybe for 319 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,040 others or what would have been present for others. 320 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,680 So Brian, I'm going to pass to you, why, why are we talking 321 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,240 about this today? Why does this matter for all of 322 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,800 us in HRI? Think I will, I will say one 323 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,560 thing that sort of sums up kind of kind of the, the whole topic 324 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,520 and the whole reason I think we're, we're talking about this. 325 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:13,120 And that is the way you respond or don't respond when someone 326 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,280 crosses a line in your organization. 327 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,760 That is your culture. Your response or lack of 328 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,560 response is your culture. You can say everything you want. 329 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,520 You can have all the motivational posters you want. 330 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,960 You can have all the pizza parties that people scoff at. 331 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,120 That's not culture. This is your culture. 332 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,080 And so that's that I think is the point that that really 333 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:42,000 matters to HR. I mean, look, every every 334 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,200 offensive costume for Halloween parties, every offensive joke, 335 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,720 every, every situation that goes up to the line that pushes the 336 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,680 line that crosses the line is is just that. 337 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,200 It's just bad culture. I don't I don't think it's H Rs 338 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,480 job to police people's taste. I don't think the dressing up as 339 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,640 a suicide bomber is anyone's taste. 340 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,800 I think it's just wrong. But I think it's it it is H Rs 341 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,760 job to make sure everybody knows where the boundaries are. 342 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,720 And sure, I would make the argument that dressing up as a 343 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,480 suicide bomber is probably not a boundary you need to 344 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,800 specifically address. It should be. 345 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,000 It should be. Common sense that this is across 346 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,480 the line. Apparently in some cases it's 347 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,000 not. But you can't build a respectful 348 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,600 workplace. And more importantly, you can't 349 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,360 build a safe workplace. A workplace where people feel 350 00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:42,760 free to be themselves, to be open, to be honest, to be 351 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,320 transparent, and to show up and do the work you need them to do. 352 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,320 If you keep hiring people that don't respect the values that 353 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,760 you say you have and if you don't do anything about it when 354 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:58,440 they cross that line. 1010% more than 1010%. 355 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,600 I agree with you on every single point that you made and it makes 356 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,280 me think about those God forsaken anti harassment 357 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,240 training videos, which by the way, I have AI have a very 358 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,200 specific pet peeve when people say harassment training, we are 359 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,880 not training people on how to harass. 360 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,040 We are training people on how not to harass. 361 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,080 You know, so like I make a really distinct point. 362 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,320 It's anti harassment, anti sexual harassment. 363 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,360 Like I, I don't know, I kind of like die inside a little bit 364 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:32,040 when someone's like, I haven't taken my sexual harassment 365 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,080 training yet. I'm like, good, we would. 366 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,880 That's not what we want. Anyway, I digress. 367 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,160 My point here is that those videos, which they are very 368 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:43,920 corny and they're like really mocked up and the actors are 369 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,200 like, Brian touched my shoulder and I didn't appreciate it and 370 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,480 quid pro quo, quid pro quo and all that stuff, right? 371 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:58,560 But this is actually a really great example of how important 372 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,160 it is to take the information from an anti harassment training 373 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,680 for example, and understand why when a leader doesn't do 374 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,040 something. Because so much of those 375 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,560 training videos are about what like what the manager's response 376 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,160 is supposed to be in order to be complying with the law, let 377 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,640 alone doing the right thing. That that is what allows you to 378 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,760 see something as insane as this example. 379 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,800 And understanding that this is like this is the why that to 380 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:37,400 your point, when HR other leaders are not, or maybe it's 381 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,360 not that they're not doing something, but that they're 382 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:43,920 tolerating bad behaviors or they allow or maybe even enable 383 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,120 things that end up becoming part of the culture like this, that 384 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,080 all of this boils up into this bigger issue. 385 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,920 And so no matter how corny those anti harassment training videos 386 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,440 are, they're telling a very specific story that you as a 387 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,880 leader have a responsibility to not only the that particular 388 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,640 employee or group of employees, also to the company to say this 389 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:16,200 is right and this is wrong. And I think, you know, for this 390 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:21,200 person who was shocked that he got fired, like that does tell a 391 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,960 very specific story about this company that other people have 392 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,840 probably done similar, maybe worse, maybe better things that 393 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,400 are obviously not correct and not appropriate and frankly 394 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,960 disgusting that have been just, you know, allowed. 395 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:43,320 And there haven't been any, you know, consequences as a result 396 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,880 of those actions or behaviors. So it to me, it's all related. 397 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,120 And frankly, someone could easily say that this person 398 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,080 created a hostile work environment because maybe they 399 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,480 have a family member who who died at the hands of a suicide 400 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,320 bomber, or maybe they just found the costume to be in such poor 401 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,680 taste that they felt uncomfortable like that. 402 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,320 All of these things are so related to the, to, to what we 403 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,680 hope leaders are walking away with an understanding of. 404 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,760 But I, I think you're absolutely right that there is a, an 405 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,400 indication of culture here. And there's certainly an 406 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,720 indication of lack of critical thinking on part of the, the 407 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,960 employee. But it does, it definitely does 408 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,760 bring back around that we have so many responsibilities not 409 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,560 only as employers, but also as leaders or HR leaders. 410 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:35,120 Yeah. And I think you bring up a great 411 00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,600 point about training too, because one of the things that 412 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,800 I've always done with with clients is to make sure that we 413 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,080 have two trainings. We have an anti harassment 414 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,520 training for the whole company, but then we also have one 415 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,960 specifically for managers. And to your point that goes into 416 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,560 what do you do? Because these types of things 417 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,640 will come up. So what do you do? 418 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Sure, you can, you can learn about the anti harassment 419 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,840 procedures and like what might cross a line, what's illegal. 420 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,560 And now to be clear, some states are actually starting to require 421 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240 these two sets of trainings, which is great so that managers 422 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,320 know what to do and how to handle these situations. 423 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,200 But that's the it's, it's crucial that managers are given 424 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,000 the tools to not only spot these things because a lot of times 425 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,680 employees won't come to you with a complaint. 426 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:32,160 They'll just quit. They'll go take a new job and 427 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,480 you'll, you'll never know why. So it's important for managers 428 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,280 to not only be able to field those complaints when they do 429 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:43,080 come, but also spot these issues on their own and take 430 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:48,600 appropriate action based on based on what's what's, what 431 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,400 they're seeing, what their culture is, what's important, 432 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,160 and of course what, what they need to do in order to to remain 433 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,120 compliant. Totally. 434 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:01,120 And you know, I've, when I think back on some experiences that 435 00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:08,520 I've had in my career now over 10 years long, I have seen 436 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,000 companies that are really decisive and allow HR leaders to 437 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,080 be really decisive and say, hey, this is not OK. 438 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,160 We don't tolerate this. This is not who we are and this 439 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:20,680 is the action we're going to take. 440 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,120 And I have unfortunately seen companies who are like, well, 441 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,200 you know, there's some Gray area here. 442 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,160 And IT places a little bit of difficulty on part of the, you 443 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,840 know, on to the HR leader to assert the right thing. 444 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,480 And I think that that is, it can be a very challenging place to 445 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,600 to work in, meaning not like work environment, although I'm 446 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,320 sure that those environments are not so easy to work in either. 447 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,960 But when I think about like an HR leader and the nuance that's 448 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,960 already there for being in this role, that is, you know, kind of 449 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,120 duel in that you're an employee and you're asserting company 450 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:05,560 direction. And so like, if the company or 451 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,560 you know, senior leaders don't give you the autonomy and the 452 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,080 rain to say this is how we address these types of issues 453 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,160 because they are issues and we don't tolerate them, that it 454 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,200 makes it just so much more difficult to actually assert the 455 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,840 right thing, which is where I think that you know, it, there's 456 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,680 an impact here for HR leaders and non HR leaders. 457 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,280 And for example, with this employee, like did that person's 458 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,880 boss like tolerate a bunch of crazy stuff from this employee 459 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,400 before that then, you know, again, made them feel that this 460 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,000 was totally appropriate to come to work in this costume? 461 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,920 It's just, it's a little bit mind boggling, but I know that 462 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,600 it exists out there, you know, and it makes it hard. 463 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,120 It makes it hard for for people who want to do the right thing 464 00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,560 to do the right thing and say, no, this is not how what we 465 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,000 tolerate. But you do still have to assert 466 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,400 yourself naturally if you know that the right thing is one way 467 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,080 versus the other. And I think that's a, that's an 468 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,640 extremely important point because often HR is sort of in 469 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,280 that. What's the analogy? 470 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,160 HR is some often times like the senior staff to the president, 471 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,160 where they have to be able to tell truth to power, where 472 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:31,760 sometimes you have to be able to go in that room and say, I'm, 473 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,080 I'm going to make this more blunt than than normal, what you 474 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:36,400 normally would in this situation. 475 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:37,920 But like, I need you to stop doing this. 476 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,920 I need you to act differently. If, if the leaders or if the 477 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,600 CEO, the owner, whatever is acting in such a way that could 478 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,800 be considered encouragement of this type of behavior. 479 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,160 Because all it's doing is making your job as an HR professional 480 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,160 just that much more difficult and undermining you because 481 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,160 you're, you're, you know, you're saying these things and you're, 482 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,880 you're talking about these policies and procedures and 483 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,680 compliance and leaders are by their own actions, sort of 484 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,960 counteracting that. And, and that isn't in, it's a 485 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,760 nearly impossible place for, for HR people to be, especially HR 486 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,360 teams of one, because you've got, you've got nobody to, to 487 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,200 talk to. You've got nobody to help you. 488 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,200 And I think that again, that that's a challenging spot for HR 489 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,840 because HR is often seen, especially in smaller 490 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,720 businesses, as sort of a speed bump to growth, as a as an 491 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,160 unnecessary thing in in a company. 492 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,960 And so leaders often times already have that viewpoint. 493 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,160 They already have that sort of bias in their heads. 494 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,280 And so if HR is going to tell them to stop doing something 495 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,880 that would change their behavior, who the hell are you 496 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,760 to tell? I don't even want you Like what? 497 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,920 Why? Why should I listen to you about 498 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,240 about what you want? Yeah. 499 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,640 So, yeah, I think that that's a great point because it's often 500 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:04,560 times HRHR can often times feel like a siloed department. 501 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:09,160 Even if you do have a, you know, a team with you and it's 502 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,080 challenging to be able to stand up to the owner of the company, 503 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,320 to ACEO and say you're encouraging this type of 504 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,000 behavior. This is why it keeps happening. 505 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,080 It is it is hard to do and it's so important to do it, which is 506 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,520 why like not everyone is meant to be in like an HR business 507 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,320 partner type of role. Because if you don't have a loud 508 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,640 voice or if you don't feel comfortable asserting your own 509 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:44,280 opinion, which can't relate, frankly, then that's just not 510 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,160 the path for you. And that's totally OK. 511 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:52,040 But I like, I've met HR, you know, I have eight former HR 512 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,720 colleagues and who are like, I never, ever, ever want to be on 513 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:57,960 the business partner track because I don't want to deal 514 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,200 with employee relations. I don't want to have to assert 515 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,840 my opinion. I just want to get the job done 516 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,960 and know exactly, you know, like run some reports, analyze and 517 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,160 whatever. And that's totally OK. 518 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,040 But I think self-awareness is really important in a lot of 519 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,520 these roles because you do have to have some pretty difficult 520 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,560 conversations, especially as you scale and grow and scale and 521 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,040 scope. But yeah, so if, if you're like, 522 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,840 oh God, I hate telling someone what I think or I, you know, I, 523 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,320 it makes me nervous to tell someone who is higher ranked 524 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,320 than me that they're doing something wrong, then definitely 525 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,760 reconsider the business partner track because it just might not 526 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,400 be the right one for you because inevitably you're in a situation 527 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,200 where you have to do that. Absolutely. 528 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,320 At some time or another, you're gonna have a tough conversation 529 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,320 with an employee, you're gonna have a tough conversation with a 530 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,600 manager, you're gonna have a tough conversation with the CEO. 531 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,840 It's gonna happen. Yeah. 532 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,560 And certainly for teams of 1, to your point, I mean that I 533 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,200 remember one time I interviewed for a job, this is a long time 534 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,080 ago and it was like party of one HR role in a luxury company that 535 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,360 was like, you know, fashion company that was like building. 536 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,160 And I was like it wasn't the being the party of one that I 537 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,960 didn't like. It was that I had to do payroll 538 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,960 that I didn't want to do, and that's why I didn't take the 539 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,520 job. But other people, they're like, 540 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,800 oh, yeah, payroll, totally cool. But when you're a party of one, 541 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,680 it's your point. You have no one to bounce these 542 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,720 things off of unless you have a really strong network of 543 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,560 colleagues around you in other companies. 544 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,880 But even still, it's like you have to, you have to be like 545 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,200 really concerted in your efforts and like really strong in your 546 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,680 beliefs around like the right thing to do. 547 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,720 You have to have strong best practices. 548 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:48,080 It's tough, a very tough position to be in, to be totally 549 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,680 alone in a department that generally is, you know, 550 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,160 overlooked for its importance. It is. 551 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,400 Yeah, it is. And, and it's stressful and 552 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,680 exhausting because you've always got to be on, you've always got 553 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,200 to be ready for the next thing. You've always got to be ready 554 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,280 for the next question, the compliance question. 555 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,480 And, and yeah, it's it, it's tough. 556 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,480 It is, it is tough. I I definitely, definitely 557 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,320 empathize with people in in that position. 558 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,800 I've been in it myself years ago. 559 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,920 It's it's tough. Yeah, totally. 560 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,160 And to close us out this in this segment and for the this week, 561 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,480 but also the last of 2025, can't believe it. 562 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,480 I know that I'm going to pass to you, Brian, because I know you 563 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,360 have had a ton of questions that you get each and every week that 564 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,560 I think could be a good opportunity for us to talk 565 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,120 about. Yeah, one of the questions that 566 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,760 I get sort of in, in different forms, and I'm beginning this 567 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,880 one for a while, but it seems to be ramping up in the last couple 568 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,960 of months. And it's it, it revolves around 569 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,360 essentially companies asking me how do we convince our employees 570 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:02,000 to come back to the office? And if you have to convince them 571 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,560 you've, you've already lost, you've lost their trust, you've 572 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,239 lost the, the, the whole point of bringing them back into the 573 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:13,080 office. And, and I think, at least in my 574 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,600 opinion and in my experience, the reason that I say that is 575 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,639 because employees see it as just nothing more than control. 576 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,280 If the only reason to bring people back to the office is 577 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,440 because leadership likes seeing people in their seats, then 578 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,320 you're making very clear, very transparent that you simply do 579 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,000 not trust your team. If you want people to come back 580 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,600 in the office, give them a genuine reason. 581 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,840 Give them a legitimate business reason, something that makes 582 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,760 sense, something that that, that they can latch onto, something 583 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:49,159 that they can trust is, is, is a true and honest reason. 584 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,639 There are many reasons why being in office makes sense. 585 00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,880 There are many reasons why being remote makes sense. 586 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:58,760 There are many reasons why hybrid makes sense. 587 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,320 And there are cons to all of those as well. 588 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,040 If you want people back in the office because collaboration is 589 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,800 dropped, or new employees aren't getting the mentorship that they 590 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,240 need, or customer experience has taken a hit, those are 591 00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:12,680 legitimate reasons to want to bring people together. 592 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,360 Doesn't mean you need people in the office five days a week. 593 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,200 Probably not. Can you go with some hybrid 594 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:19,120 thing? Sure. 595 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,000 But have that transparent discussion with your employees. 596 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,320 If you can't explain why being in the office matters, employees 597 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,840 will simply treat it like another compliance exercise to 598 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,320 show up, do the bare minimum and count the hours until they can 599 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:41,480 leave. I think that that for HR, if 600 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,240 you're, if you're being asked to send out another Slack message, 601 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,120 another e-mail that says everyone must be in the office 602 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,280 three days a week, everybody must be in the office five days 603 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,480 a week. You should ask yourself or as a 604 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,120 leader in a company to ask yourself one question. 605 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,520 Would I come in for that reason? If the answer is no, then go 606 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,080 back and find a better reason. Don't make one up. 607 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,800 I'm not saying make one up, but go back and find a legitimate 608 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,920 business reason, a genuine reason that people will believe 609 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,600 and understand and stand behind for why you want people to come 610 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,880 back into the office. I think that's that. 611 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,360 Like I said, in some way shape or form, one of the most 612 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,400 frequent questions I've been getting the last the last few 613 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,400 months. Yeah, I'm not surprised that 614 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,000 this question comes up because it it's an important topic. 615 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:35,280 And frankly, I have gone on record probably 1001 times on my 616 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,200 podcast saying I will never go back in the office. 617 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,240 No one could ever make me because I love being remote and 618 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:44,080 it offers me a lot of flexibility. 619 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,440 And yet as much as I say that, I'm also like, well, if a 620 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,520 company said to me, OK, well, you know, we need you in one day 621 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,480 a week, we can, you know, you can figure out what that day 622 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,040 looks like. Like I wouldn't be opposed. 623 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,080 But I think to this, to this end, as you mentioned about 624 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,160 control, that is that would be the key for me that I need to 625 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,560 have control over my life and my schedule. 626 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,040 And maybe you'd even get another day out of me if, if you, if you 627 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:13,680 gave me that type of flexibility. 628 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,360 And I don't think that I'm this anomaly to the to in this 629 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,440 regard. I think most people, we 630 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,120 certainly this see this with Gen. 631 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:28,800 Z and, and probably later generations too, that people 632 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,760 want the ultimate flexibility. They want to have the option to 633 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,000 be in the office. So they want there to be space, 634 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,160 but they also don't want to be told when to come in. 635 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,480 And I think that's where when you again, when you say, Hey, we 636 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,600 have this office space, we want people to use it one day a week 637 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,480 minimum, figure out what that day is. 638 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,720 People probably would go in more frequently than if they were 639 00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:55,040 told you need to have your butts in your seats three days a week. 640 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,880 Because who wants to be told what to do after 5-4 or five 641 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,640 years of successfully working remotely and where most 642 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,960 businesses have made a tremendous amount of money, more 643 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,680 than they did prior to COVID. And I think that is the issue. 644 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,720 And frankly, I, I think companies need to remember that 645 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:18,880 they did not, they did not hire dummies like they're, they hired 646 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,600 people who have their wits about them, with the exception of the 647 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,720 guy who was fired for the costume that he wore. 648 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,240 He's he's the exception here. And you know, they're, they're 649 00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:32,880 going to be able to put those things together that they were 650 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,920 successfully working and executing while remote. 651 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,760 Why can they not continue to do that? 652 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,760 And so, yeah, to your point, it's there's a trust issue now 653 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,720 and that's not great. There is and I think to your 654 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,480 point about about control, I think it's it goes back to the 655 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,120 discussion about rights. This is a a the flexibility, the 656 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,480 control over your own time is a right that employees have become 657 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,840 accustomed to. And employers, some employers 658 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,640 are trying to take that right away. 659 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,320 And I think that is part of the issue that it's mandating that 660 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,200 employees come back to the office, not requesting or 661 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,920 opening a line of communication about some sort of hybrid 662 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,040 environment. There's certainly reasons why 663 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,280 people might not want to come back to the office. 664 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,080 Maybe they've moved, they've they, you know, it's now a 2 665 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:24,680 hour commute each way. They're not doing that. 666 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,440 That makes sense. They've moved across the country 667 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,080 makes sense. But if, if the whole point is to 668 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:36,760 bring people into the office for a legitimate good reason, then 669 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,800 there's a way to find a compromise. 670 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,000 There's a way to find that common ground where employees 671 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,040 can still retain that right of flexibility, that right of 672 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,760 control over their their time. I mean, look at it this way. 673 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,680 Sure, a lot of this is sleeping time, but there's 168 hours in 674 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,720 a, in a work week, right? And there in a week, there's 40 675 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,040 that your employer gets from you. 676 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,960 Some employers require more, you know, but 40 traditionally, 677 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,240 right? So that's less than than half. 678 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,000 Why should my employer dictate what I do? 679 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,200 For essentially the entirety of those hours, not just the four. 680 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,440 Of that. And I think that that's, that's 681 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,080 something I've I've heard from employees and, and from 682 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,360 individuals making career transitions. 683 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,240 They're doing it for for those types of reasons that it's their 684 00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:32,440 employer is trying to take back the control over essentially the 685 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,240 way they see it over their private time, their private 686 00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:39,440 hours. I think that's a great point. 687 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,840 I never thought of things that way, but I think I mean, I guess 688 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,320 we'll continue to see how things evolve. 689 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,600 I mean, certainly the job market and the landscape in that regard 690 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,920 has changed quite a bit. At least from where I stand, it 691 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,680 seems that it has. And I think that companies, you 692 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,240 know, it doesn't matter that there are people on 693 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:05,640 unemployment, companies are always in a deficit of talent 694 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:10,160 always, because unless you have, unless it's, you know, a family 695 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,080 run business where you're not hiring people on the outside and 696 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,240 you always have, you know, 100% attrition. 697 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:18,600 And some companies do have, you know, close to that. 698 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:23,840 It doesn't pay for companies to do something that then risks 699 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,920 their their attrition rates or their tenure rates. 700 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,320 Like, don't you want to figure out what is going to engage your 701 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,720 people the most so that you can retain them and elevate your 702 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,200 tenure and keep people around and continue to do great 703 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,160 business? Like, to me, that's really just 704 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,800 so intrinsic in the way that I think that it's like, Oh yeah, 705 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,680 this makes sense. People want flexibility. 706 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,360 Let's give them flexibility because that keeps them happy 707 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,440 and it ensures better retention. But not everyone thinks that 708 00:41:55,440 --> 00:42:00,240 way, especially when there is a concern from someone at a 709 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:02,440 leadership level that people are not doing what they're supposed 710 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,560 to be doing. But maybe that person is just 711 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:05,960 projecting. I don't know, Like, are you 712 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,320 doing what you're supposed to be doing if you think that others 713 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,920 are not doing what they're supposed to be doing? 714 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:14,280 Just saying, I don't know. But anyway, Brian, thank you so 715 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,560 much for your time on this segment and in general for 716 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,200 helping, first of all, for being a part of these segments, but 717 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:29,120 also helping kick off what has become a very exciting part of 718 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,480 the podcast menu, so to speak every month. 719 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,720 And so really appreciate it. I think all the listeners have a 720 00:42:36,720 --> 00:42:41,280 lot to look forward to in 2026. And there probably hopefully 721 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,200 will be some, some cream. I said some ice cream, Supreme 722 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,800 Court decisions, that ice cream on the brain, Supreme Court 723 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:56,800 decisions that we can hopefully talk about in 2026 that again, 724 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:58,440 adding to the whiplash. But that's OK, OK. 725 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,080 This is part of our job. So thank you so much, really 726 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,880 appreciate it. And all of your information, of 727 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,720 course, is in the show notes for everyone to connect with you. 728 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:08,560 Thank you, Tracy. Really appreciate it. 729 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,040 Looking forward to talking about some of those Supreme Court 730 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:12,920 cases, I think, and maybe some ice cream too. 731 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,800 Maybe we. Could and maybe some ice cream. 732 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,120 Yeah. Yeah, right. 733 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:18,960 I love it. Awesome. 734 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,800 See you next year. Hey, just before you go, don't 735 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,560 forget to subscribe to the show so that you are the first to 736 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,320 hear when an episode drops each week and maybe leave a five star 737 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,920 review and a comment about how much you loved this episode. 738 00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,720 Plus, if you have someone in mind who would really enjoy this 739 00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:36,360 episode, make sure you share it with them. 740 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,280 Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you next week.