1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,480 Welcome to the Bringing the Human Back to Human Resources 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:04,800 podcast. I'm Tracy Chernoff, and I've 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,240 spent my entire professional career in HR. 4 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,840 Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance between people 5 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,840 and business, with the aim to reconnect the two and create 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,720 meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,560 experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,560 from various industries about our mission to bring the human 9 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,040 back to human. Resources. 10 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,040 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. 11 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:28,960 You know the drill. Don't forget to rate, review and 12 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:30,680 subscribe wherever you're catching this episode. 13 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,560 And this episode is our monthly Policy Pulse. 14 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,600 And so I have, of course, our resident helper here, Brian 15 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,760 Driscoll, who is an attorney. And you know, of course, as you 16 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,200 know from all the previous Policy Pulse episodes, kind of 17 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,000 like our resident guru on all things employment law or things 18 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,800 I could at least affect people in the workplace. 19 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,880 And you know, of course, with anything else, this is not legal 20 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,080 advice, as you know, but more so kind of hopefully a discussion 21 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,080 that's a little bit more targeted toward some of you who 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,280 might need to kind of keep an eye on some things as they kind 23 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,320 of come through and happen. And so a lot of what we'll be 24 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:17,880 talking about today might not actually be in existence just 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,880 yet, but is more so kind of a look forward or something to 26 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,520 anticipate should there be any final determinations or 27 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:26,720 decisions that kind of come out of some of these things. 28 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,200 So Brian, of course will be will be able to explain a little bit 29 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,320 more on those fronts. But we're going to start with 30 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:36,400 talking about the the National Labor Review Board, AKA the 31 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,600 NLRB. And a quick snippet here is that 32 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,760 President Trump has nominated James Murphy and Scott Mayer to 33 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,800 fill vacant seats on the NLRB. And if confirmed by the Senate, 34 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,320 these nominees will restore a functioning quorum to the five 35 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,800 member board, which has been hamstrung since May and unable 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,320 to issue decisions. This signals a potential 37 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,840 significant course correction and labor law. 38 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,040 So Brian, I will pass to you because I think there's even in 39 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,280 that one statement, there's probably a lot, a lot to unpack. 40 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:08,919 Yeah. So for a couple of months now, 41 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:14,560 the NLRB has not had a quorum, like you said, 55 members on the 42 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:15,920 board, but they've only had three. 43 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:19,520 So they haven't been able to issue any rulings, any 44 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,840 decisions. So if these two people are 45 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,320 confirmed by the Senate, then they'll have they'll have the 46 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,760 quorum again and they'll be able to make some make some changes. 47 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,880 What we expect to see, we'll go through a few of them, but what 48 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,160 we expect to see are lots of probusiness changes. 49 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,920 So removal of of some Biden era decisions, even going back as 50 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:46,760 far as some Obama era decisions that could be on the chopping 51 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,320 block. Interesting. 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,960 So when we think about some of those decisions, can you walk us 53 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,280 through what might be on the chopping block then? 54 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:00,680 Yeah. So you know we've talked about 55 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,800 previously and I'm sure people have have paid a lot of 56 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,640 attention to the non compete issues that have been going 57 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:11,160 around the last couple of years. Same type of thing with 58 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,960 confidentiality and and non disparagement provisions. 59 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:20,480 Previously there was a an NLRB decision that held severance 60 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,440 agreements that contained confidentiality clauses and non 61 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,600 disparagement clauses could possibly violate employee rights 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,760 even if the severance was signed voluntarily. 63 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:38,520 Essentially keeping them quiet with would be against the 64 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,200 leaving employees, right? Under the new board, we're 65 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,800 anticipating that this would just be removed reinstating the 66 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:53,160 prior the prior board ruling that post employment 67 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,360 restrictions do not interfere with employees NLRA rights. 68 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,160 And so it would essentially mean that employees would still be 69 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,800 bound by confidentiality and non disparagement clauses. 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,680 So what that means in practice is that if you're, if you're 71 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,840 leaving a company and you sign a severance agreement or at the 72 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,480 beginning of your, your employment with the company, 73 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,800 you, you negotiate A departure package. 74 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,880 It will probably include a non disparagement clause, which 75 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,000 means that you can't leave a Glassdoor review that speaks 76 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,280 poorly of the company or your manager or the owner. 77 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,480 You can't talk with other employees negatively. 78 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,480 In practice, a lot of this stuff can be hard to prove, but it's 79 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,360 still, it's still in the contract. 80 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,200 It's still something that technically you're you're bound 81 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,440 by. So it's like it, it basically it 82 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,240 could be enforceable if someone were able to figure out that 83 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,280 someone were disparaging the company if they were potentially 84 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:54,640 bound to that. That's interesting. 85 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:00,640 I, I mean, I'm curious, obviously I can see both sides 86 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,440 here. As an employee, I can see, well, 87 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,240 you know, you want to have the right to express your experience 88 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:12,280 from, you know, what the company experience was as an individual. 89 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,320 And I can also see from the employment side or the employer 90 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,720 side why these agreements are so important because of, you know, 91 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,320 like a company could do everything right? 92 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,040 And that agreement is something that they really, you know, kind 93 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,120 of lean on in the event that someone who's really disgruntled 94 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,160 is kind of trying to tear things down. 95 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,600 So I could see both sides. So I'm curious like what the 96 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,840 pros and cons would be to basically either overturning 97 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:44,760 like changing some of the these rulings or keep, you know, like 98 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,480 what I guess what the pros and cons would be either way, maybe 99 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,520 that's the best way to to phrase it. 100 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,240 Yeah, I think the, I think in my opinion, I think the the 101 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,960 biggest, the biggest sort of broad brush change that we'll 102 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:01,960 see here. It's no secret this 103 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:08,360 administration is extremely probusiness and, and many of 104 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,560 their decisions, many of the, the people that have been 105 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,560 nominated to key to key positions are extremely 106 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,080 probusiness. And so we're going to see that 107 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,840 trend. The, I think the the overarching 108 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:25,440 theme for the administration in possibly overturning, reversing 109 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:31,200 some of these prior decisions is to prevent businesses from 110 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,600 having to spend what they see as unnecessary litigation money. 111 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,720 Instead of having to spend money to go after a prior employee 112 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,880 for, for a Glassdoor review and an Indeed review or, or for 113 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:49,760 talking poorly to current employees, they, the company 114 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,240 could then use that money to hire more people or put more 115 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,440 money into R&D or just save cash. 116 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:01,200 That I think is the, you know, everything comes down to money, 117 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,000 right? Like I think that is, I think 118 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,600 that's the ultimate, the ultimate overarching theme that 119 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:09,680 we're, that we see across all of these is that it just comes down 120 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,520 to this administration wants to help businesses retain cash. 121 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,880 And I think that's that's, I think that's the ultimate, 122 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:19,640 ultimate goal. Got it. 123 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:26,080 And then as it relates to like the state by state laws, like is 124 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,200 there is there any impact there where this is obviously a 125 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,080 national ruling, but then could states have their own kind of 126 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,400 set of principles or laws that potentially are more or less 127 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,800 strict than the national ruling? So the states can't have 128 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:48,080 anything that's less strict, but they can have more strict, at 129 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,640 least for now. I anticipate that there there 130 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:58,520 might be a challenge before the Supreme Court that would make 131 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,560 these decisions nationwide and and void any state laws that are 132 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,840 more strict. But take California for example. 133 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,120 We've used them in in our discussions previously with the 134 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,000 non competes. Same thing would be the case 135 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,800 here. They may keep the non 136 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,400 disparagement confidentiality clauses the the sort of the 137 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,600 boundaries that currently exist, even if the NLRB takes a step 138 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,200 backwards. So if you're in California, you 139 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,360 might nothing, nothing effectively might might change 140 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,280 for you if if the NLRB reverses course. 141 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:35,760 Got it right. That makes sense. 142 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,039 So I think it's, it seems to me that of course HR leaders are 143 00:08:40,039 --> 00:08:42,200 going to have to kind of keep a pulse on some of these things. 144 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,800 There are great like newsletters and articles that kind of keep, 145 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,480 you know, the I, I'm subscribed to like the Human Times 146 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,920 newsletter. And they generally send a lot of 147 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,200 international pieces of information actually that that 148 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,880 could impact HR or the workplace people. 149 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,800 And so I would probably recommend people to, to find 150 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:07,160 some newsletter that resonates either with their industry or 151 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,160 that gives them information that keeps them up to date, because 152 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,960 this is something that could have systemic changes with how 153 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,640 businesses operate. I mean, the non compete alone, 154 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,680 that's something like even in my husband's work, they were 155 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:24,600 talking about that in the last year or so, Like how does that 156 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,000 change? Because in in a lot of fields 157 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,240 and a lot of industries, he's in healthcare, there's, you know, 158 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,800 there are restricted covenants and non competes that really put 159 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:40,920 a lot of restriction on how you can actually work and where you 160 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,800 can work. And that, you know, they're, 161 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,200 they're pros a lot for a lot of pros for the employer in that 162 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,920 regard and a lot of cons for the individual. 163 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,200 So it'll be interesting to see how all this shakes out. 164 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:58,920 And I know there are some other kind of things to discuss within 165 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,960 some of these national kind of potential changes, one of which 166 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:11,520 is, you know, recognition of unions and specifically related 167 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,320 to Cmax. Am I saying that correctly? 168 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:14,680 Cmax. Cmax. 169 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,320 Yeah, Cmax construction. Right. 170 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,000 Yeah, Cmax construction materials specific, I'll see. 171 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,480 And that they dramatically altered the process for union 172 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,200 recognition, requiring employers to either, this is a prior 173 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,160 ruling, by the way, to either voluntarily recognize a union 174 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,560 based on a card check or promptly file an RM petition for 175 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,440 a secret ballot election. Crucially, if an employer 176 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,920 commits any unfair labor practices during the pre 177 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,320 election period, the board could issue a bargaining order 178 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:42,920 compelling recognition regardless of the vote outcome. 179 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,520 So there's an anticipated shift here, right? 180 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,680 And I, I, I realize that this might not necessarily be for 181 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,240 every union, but related to this particular case. 182 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,520 Could you walk us through that? Yeah. 183 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:59,080 Again, theoretical in nature at the moment, but we would expect 184 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,640 that if if these two people are confirmed to the NLRB, they 185 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,680 would they would reverse course on on this prior ruling 186 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,960 essentially allowing employers to to reject the physical card 187 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,080 based union recognition and election process. 188 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:26,960 It would there this kind of is combined with with another union 189 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:35,080 issue that might be reversed and Amazon has actually filed filed 190 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,680 a charge in in that one. So there's something in in union 191 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:40,440 meetings called the captive audience. 192 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:47,360 And that is a long standing, long standing provision from the 193 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:53,800 NLRB that that requires people, employees to sit in a meeting 194 00:11:54,600 --> 00:12:00,680 where the employer tells them essentially why unions are are 195 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:09,760 are bad for them. So the the the new board could 196 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:15,040 restore sort of reverse course again on that for these captive 197 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,840 audiences. So that would allow employers to 198 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,240 then once again say, we don't want you to join a union. 199 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,800 We don't need a union. We're all we're just a family 200 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:27,200 here. We're just everybody's, 201 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,680 everybody's wonderful. You don't need a union to 202 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:33,320 protect your rights. We're doing the best by you. 203 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:38,880 Trust us. So under the under a binary 204 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,160 ruling that sort of what I just laid out that that sort of 205 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,920 conversation could not be forced on employees. 206 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,960 Employees would have the option to sit there and listen to that 207 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,480 or leave. We could see that sort of take a 208 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,880 step back. So these two things together are 209 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:01,480 sort of attempting to weaken unions across the country, like 210 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:06,320 you said, not necessary for for everybody in the country. 211 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:11,440 I think union membership is down now below 50% nationwide. 212 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:16,160 So it's not, it's not as widely wide, it's not as wide of an 213 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,440 issue as it used to be. But these two things would 214 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:24,120 certainly take a step back, allowing for more employer again 215 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,120 my words, more employer persuasion in in the anti union 216 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:29,920 space. Interesting. 217 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,920 You know, maybe I'm mistaken here, but I was always under the 218 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,520 impression that at least at the federal level, maybe it's 219 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,640 President Trump, maybe it's others, that there was a general 220 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:45,240 like pro union stance, like more generally speaking, right? 221 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,960 There. So, yeah, it's certainly not 222 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,880 with this administration there. There used to be in the gosh, 223 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,280 this is going to test my memory now. 224 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:03,120 I think it's sixties, 60s or 70s union. 225 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,600 In the 60s or 70s, union membership peaked at something 226 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,240 like 8085% of the country. And that's where we saw a lot of 227 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:16,880 progress with employee rights. We saw minimum wages in 228 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,440 different industries increase. Yeah, Labor Day exactly. 229 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:27,440 That's, that's a union thing. So we then in, in the 80s with 230 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,600 Reagan, we started to see a decline in union membership as 231 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,760 deregulation really, really wiped a lot of, a lot of things 232 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,760 out. And but as you and I have talked 233 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,640 about before it, even if you're not a member of a union, but you 234 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:48,760 are in an industry that is is governed by a union or you're in 235 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,680 an area of the country where union membership is extremely 236 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,400 high, you actually still see benefits where union membership 237 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,920 is high. Wages are also higher than than 238 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,200 the national average. So unions do have a positive 239 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:02,600 impact even if you're not a member. 240 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,920 Interesting. Interesting. 241 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,840 Yeah. I mean, it's funny. 242 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,920 When I was, when I started working in HRI, was working at 243 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,480 Target. That's like where I always say 244 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,480 that's where I sharpen my knives and stuff like that. 245 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,840 It was a great experience. I remember there was so much 246 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,080 discussion on Labor Relations and that we were really like 247 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,520 trained on how to communicate that we like, quote UN quote, 248 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,640 protect our signatures and that we should encourage it. 249 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,680 Like part of the training, even for employees is to protect your 250 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,320 signature. Like only sign things that you 251 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,920 really believe in. Like if there was no coercion, 252 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,960 obviously it was like, you know, really trying to explain what 253 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,400 happens if you do sign a card, for example, in this case, or, 254 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,800 or, you know, sign up or for something. 255 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,520 And there was one instance where like a particular CVS pharmacy 256 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,120 within a Target store did end up unionizing. 257 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,640 And I think it kind of put a lot of even more emphasis, I should 258 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,640 say, on Labor Relations at Target and, and just the 259 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,400 training in general, which is really interesting. 260 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,040 And, and it's funny, it's never come up again in my career. 261 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,480 Like there was never again a focus on Labor Relations. 262 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,720 I don't know if it's because that was the largest corporation 263 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,080 that I had ever worked for or if there was, you know, there's an 264 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,520 impact there, but there's there like everything, there are two 265 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,240 sides to everything. There are pros and cons. 266 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,160 Some people who are in unions say that, you know, like I have 267 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,440 family members who are part of unions, for example, based on 268 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,000 the industry that they're in. And they're like, I love my 269 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,520 union. It really protects my interests. 270 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,600 There's always, you know, especially like teachers unions, 271 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,920 for example, they're always like, you know, fighting for our 272 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,120 interests. And then I hear from the other 273 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,120 side of the coin, it's like, well, I really don't like my 274 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:46,720 union. I never have any control. 275 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,640 I don't have any say. They kind of just decide what 276 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,640 matters to them. And frankly, that is kind of 277 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,400 like the case for anything. You could see both sides every 278 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,680 just because it's a union and two industries doesn't mean that 279 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,480 it's going to be properly run or run in a way that people want to 280 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,440 to see it run every single time. And then I see it on the other 281 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,440 side where it's like in a non union environment, there's so 282 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,680 much more control as an employer to be able to change or or 283 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,920 maneuver and adjust the ways in which we support the teams. 284 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,040 But I've said before on the podcast that a lot of the times, 285 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,400 at least in my experience, union discussions come up when people 286 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,560 are really unhappy or feel that their interests are not being 287 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,360 supported or considered. So there is definitely an 288 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:41,720 element to that where businesses are businesses who maybe don't 289 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,360 want to see employees unionized potentially they're inclined to 290 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,800 protect the interests of their employees still and really lean 291 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,520 into employee engagement and satisfaction and how they 292 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:55,880 support the people who drive their business. 293 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:59,040 Just my my opinion. Exactly. 294 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,200 And that's, that's where unions can have sort of a, an ancillary 295 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:08,480 impact on, on companies, on businesses that don't, that 296 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,360 aren't unionized. They see that, OK, you know, 297 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,760 this Target is, is unionizing, this Starbucks is unionizing. 298 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,880 And we understand that it's because employees feel like 299 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,160 they're, they're being overworked, underpaid, not 300 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,240 getting the benefits that, that they think they should have. 301 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,600 So let's, let's increase ours. Let's let's increase our wages, 302 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,840 let's increase our benefits, let's add some benefits. 303 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,560 Those can be those can be positive impacts that that 304 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,880 again, unions can sort of have that have that knock on effect 305 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,440 from for, for for their neighbors. 306 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,760 Right, right. You mentioned deregulation 307 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,000 actually as part of this discussion, which is a good 308 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,720 segue for us because there is a change, a pretty big change at 309 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,240 the with regard to the Department of Labor and, and a 310 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,520 lot of deregulation that we're seeing here. 311 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,320 And so the Department of Labor has launched one of the most 312 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,240 sweeping deregulatory efforts in recent memory, advancing over 60 313 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,480 proposals in response to President Trump's executive 314 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,920 order to rescind 10 regulations for every new one issued. 315 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,160 So what does that mean? What are some of the proposed 316 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,000 deregulations as a result of this? 317 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:24,040 So some of the most notable things are one of them. 318 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,480 Again, not applicable to to everyone, but OSHA is is a big 319 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,320 one. And it would, this would really, 320 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,200 in my opinion, harm some some workplace safety issues. 321 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:41,320 The they want to roll back reporting requirements for 322 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,520 muscular musculoskeletal disorders. 323 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,320 So that would be like, you know, you're sitting at a computer all 324 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,320 day typing and, and carpal tunnel starts to develop. 325 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,320 You get pain in the wrist. You go to the doctor and that 326 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,600 would currently you would report that to your employer. 327 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,360 They would have to make some accommodations for you. 328 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,720 They would have to report that to the federal government that 329 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,480 there is there is someone suffering from from this type of 330 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,960 injury at work. That would no longer be the 331 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,960 case. So these types of things think 332 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:25,280 construction workers and back injuries, any, any type of of 333 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:31,040 work specifically or mostly manual labor, but it would it 334 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,800 would roll back a lot of those reporting requirements, which 335 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,920 ultimately reduces the payouts for workers comp. 336 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,360 So again, going back to the money conversation, this then 337 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:45,480 would would keep employers rates low. 338 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,880 Got it, got it. I noticed there was something 339 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:56,840 also on some fiduciary plan changes under the ERISA, which 340 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,440 for those who might not know their requirements related to 341 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,200 really like, I mean, maybe I'm maybe I'm not an expert in this, 342 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,280 but my understanding is like requirements related to any type 343 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:14,120 of like retirement contributions plans that are might be in 344 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,440 place. Like for example, I've been, 345 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,320 I've worked with Fidelity before and they have, you know, 346 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,800 fiduciary rule. They have a fiduciary that they 347 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,240 work with and their plans and they're all kind of compliant 348 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,080 under the ERISA. But what are some of those 349 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,280 revocations that you're seeing under some of these rollbacks? 350 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,200 So, yeah, like you said, under, under ERISA, the, the, the plan, 351 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,440 the plan manager, which is often the employer has a fiduciary 352 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:46,400 duty to, to ensure that, that the their employees money is 353 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:52,560 being managed properly, that the fees are normal, not outrageous. 354 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,480 And, and those would be rolled back. 355 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,240 Essentially. It would be similar to to some 356 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,320 of the rollback that we're seeing on personal credit cards 357 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:09,400 and overdraft fees from banks. So that again, was was a Biden 358 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,640 era rule where overdraft fees, I think had to be capped at like 359 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,400 25 bucks or something. The Trump administration wants 360 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,400 to remove that. So, you know, they can charge 361 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,040 100 bucks if you overdraft by a dollar or something like that. 362 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,480 This is the same type of thing you would see, you would see 363 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,280 fiduciary duty drop. There might still be some level 364 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:34,600 of fiduciary duty, but you would see a drop in litigation. 365 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:41,240 So if investments are improper, if you know if if instead of 366 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,920 putting putting the the employees funds into a whole 367 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,560 market fund or diversifying across many different areas, 368 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,560 they put everything in, I don't know, they put everything in 369 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,040 Bitcoin. 100% of your funds are in Bitcoin, and Bitcoin crashes 370 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,280 that would be that would absolutely trigger trigger 371 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,200 litigation. And now it might be more 372 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,040 difficult for employees to prove that the plan manager failed in 373 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,200 their fiduciary duty. I see, I see. 374 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,360 Very interesting. Yeah. 375 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,000 I mean, I'm, I guess I'm trying to better understand this. 376 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:22,280 So basically the possibility here is that for part of the 377 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,040 deregulation is that for every new regulation that's not just 378 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,040 proposed but basically approved and issued, 10 regulations will 379 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,520 be rolled back. How are those rollbacks decided? 380 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,400 Is it like based on this new issue is based on employee 381 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,400 benefits and so we're going to rollback 10 regulations within 382 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,400 that category like how is that going to work? 383 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,080 I think, I think they're throwing darts, honestly. 384 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,840 I, I there, there doesn't seem to be a there's, there's no 385 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,960 correlation. So like if you're to your 386 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,560 example, if, if you're, if you're adding a new rule on or 387 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:02,040 rolling something back on on employee rights, the other 10 388 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,680 that are eliminated don't have to be related to employee 389 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,360 rights. It can. 390 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,760 It can be whatever they're, whatever they feel like today. 391 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,400 Got it, Got it. Interesting, interesting. 392 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,280 I guess we'll see what happens there. 393 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:20,440 I mean, I know there's one other point here that we kind of have 394 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,960 in our notes that I think is probably worth talking about 395 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:25,440 with regard to this deregulation. 396 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,520 And that's around the independent contractor rule that 397 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,600 was present during the Biden era Department of Labor. 398 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:37,000 But I don't remember what that rule was other than maybe the 399 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,840 potential for misclassification and having to really make sure 400 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,480 that you go through like the test, for example, to ensure 401 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,360 that contractors are contractors are not employees. 402 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:49,440 But I guess I wasn't, I, I, it'll be interesting to hear you 403 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,520 kind of explain that. I'll say I'll, I'll call us for 404 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:52,800 now. Yeah. 405 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,120 So the so the independent contractor rule has changed. 406 00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:58,920 That is the one thing that that that we can talk about here that 407 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,880 that's not theory that has actually changed. 408 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:10,840 So the I won't get to in the weeds, but like the, the, the 409 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,800 test for whether somebody is an employee or an independent 410 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:20,440 contractor under the, the Biden, the Biden proposal was more 411 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,480 employee friendly. The essentially the burden was 412 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,360 on the employer to show that this person is not an employee. 413 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,880 That has shifted. It is now back to what it was 414 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,360 previously where it's it the burden is more on the employee 415 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,400 to show that they are an employee. 416 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,840 So you, you have what is it today it's almost 60% I think of 417 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,320 the country that that is gig working in some fashion, whether 418 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,160 full time or or part time and that's mostly done on a 1099 419 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,840 basis independent contractor basis. 420 00:25:55,040 --> 00:26:00,120 So what we're seeing is a lot of employees, a lot of workers who 421 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:04,480 are working as independent contractors and some of those 422 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,040 are probably employees essentially for employers and, 423 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,720 and for the HR pros listening, everybody probably already knows 424 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,640 this. But the, the, the big picture is 425 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,560 when, when you're looking at whether somebody is a 1099 426 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,760 independent contractor or an employee, do you as the employer 427 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:29,400 control their work hours, what they do and when There's more to 428 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,840 it than that, but those are kind of the, that's the big picture 429 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,920 item. If you if you do any of those 430 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,360 things, the worker is an employee, not an independent 431 00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:40,640 contractor. Yeah, the I did an episode on 432 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,240 this. I can't remember if it was this 433 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:48,880 year or last year, but I did talk about how important it is 434 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:54,480 to ensure correct classification and I shared resources in on 435 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,520 where people can go and find the test. 436 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,800 And you're right, there are more elements to that, but it is 437 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,360 pretty important that it happens a lot. 438 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:07,040 And it's actually something that I've learned in managing a 439 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:12,920 global workforce in the last several years is that the 440 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,320 contractor rules that we understand in the US are kind of 441 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,880 like held in other countries. Like there are other countries 442 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,040 that that do prefer like their employees in other countries 443 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,440 like in Brazil and Argentina and other places where they prefer 444 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,480 to be contractors. I think it's because of some of 445 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,800 the tax laws, but the the potential for misclassification 446 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,200 remains just as high as in other as as it does here. 447 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,760 And so I would encourage anyone who is managing a global 448 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,640 workforce to really understand each country's kind of standard 449 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,880 on that. And most people are probably, 450 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,960 you know, kind of tuned in and, and focus on the US and 451 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:54,560 generally the larger the company, the more resources you 452 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,680 have in those particular local markets. 453 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,560 But where then you have like someone in HR who knows what 454 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,960 they're doing in those countries. 455 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,160 But still, you know, it's, it's not lost on me that there are 456 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,800 likely people who are managing international workforces and 457 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,080 they really need to think about that. 458 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,000 So that's all very interesting and not theoretical for the US. 459 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,800 Very, very interesting there too. 460 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,920 I'm going to have to go and take a, a look and a refresh on the, 461 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,200 the test and make sure that I'm, I'm up to date as well. 462 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:26,400 And so all of these things that we've talked about today, of 463 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,520 course, put a lot of onus on HR pros and as they always do, 464 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,800 because we are, you know, the subject matter experts in this 465 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,520 alongside our legal colleagues. And so there are some things 466 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,880 that we should be proactive in, which is really focusing on 467 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:48,120 compliance, auditing our handbooks, of course, preparing 468 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,960 for some of these, especially when we think about like union 469 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,440 activity, preparing for those types of motions and movements 470 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,520 within organizations, tracking all of these changes or 471 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,240 potential changes that may come. And then of course, assessing 472 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,360 impact on business OPS. And I don't know if there's 473 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,440 anything that you want to add here. 474 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,600 I obviously went over kind of the the high level elements 475 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,880 there, but what advice do you have to HR leaders so that they 476 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,240 can really think about this and and be prepared? 477 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,200 So what I was thinking this morning while while putting some 478 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,120 notes together for for our our call today, I was thinking, 479 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:31,160 thinking about it like weather. This is kind of like a shifting 480 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,840 weather pattern. Some pads might clear up and 481 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,960 some might get even stormier, but you have to you got to look 482 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,640 out the window to keep running. With this analogy, you got to 483 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,960 look out the window to see, to see where the clouds are. 484 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,600 And I think that that's, that's probably the most important 485 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,360 thing for for HR professionals, whether they're in a A20 person 486 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,600 company or a 2000 person company is to, to understand what's on 487 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,880 the horizon, to be able to prepare for it. 488 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,600 There's just, you know, as you and I talked about before, 489 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,960 there's, there's just so much happening right now and there's 490 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,320 a lot of whiplash in the HR space. 491 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,000 And so it's it's being prepared without being reactionary. 492 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,680 I think is, is one of the most important sort of mindsets to 493 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,080 have. You know, whatever you see on 494 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,640 the news today, it doesn't mean you need to run and and write a 495 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,080 whole new handbook. Right. 496 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,320 I mean. It might, but it doesn't, it 497 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,680 doesn't automatically mean that. So I think the, the yeah, the 498 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:35,240 the big take away is to again, stay in, stay on on top of 499 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,000 things, understand what matters for your business, understand 500 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,680 where your weak points are. You know, you talked about 501 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,920 auditing a minute ago. I would, I would add to that 502 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,120 sort of unrelated to some of the conversation we've had today. 503 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,200 But while we're talking about auditing I nines that is that is 504 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,160 huge right now. That is, that is ISS door entry 505 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,640 point into your company. So make sure your I nines are, 506 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,880 are in order and separate from everything else. 507 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,680 So yeah, I think it's, it's really just, it's staying on top 508 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,760 of things. And I know that many HR 509 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,200 professionals are already underwater and overworked with 510 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,120 everything that they're doing, trying to manage. 511 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,040 So one more thing might be, might be a little bit too much. 512 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,280 Yeah, exactly. But to your point, you know, 513 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:23,840 there's, there's great resources. 514 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,960 There's, there's people like me who can help out. 515 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,840 There's, there's podcasts like yours, which are a great 516 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,200 resource. There's also, I subscribe to 517 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,560 several law firm employment law firm newsletters. 518 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,080 There's some great ones and and making sure that you're just 519 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,440 staying on top of of what's happening in in your area of the 520 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,160 country. Yeah, totally. 521 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,520 And actually, it really is a great time probably for HR pros 522 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,640 to think about outsourcing some of this to your point, like 523 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,360 bringing in Someone Like You to really be able to help navigate 524 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,560 some of these things related to their company or their industry 525 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,000 or their state. You know, sometimes we're just 526 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,360 not the right people to own every single thing. 527 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,560 And that's OK. Like, I, I mean, even just to 528 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,240 like put it into a different perspective. 529 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:22,000 When I was working still in, in retail, we went from like 1HR IS 530 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,760 or HR information system to another and we were like, we 531 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,920 can't manage that migration. Like it's way too much. 532 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,200 We have all these like regular day-to-day operations that we 533 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,200 have to manage. So we brought in a consultant 534 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,360 and they managed in the migration and it was great and 535 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,560 they did a great job. And so that's like a, you know, 536 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,840 another quote, UN quote, real life example of how sometimes 537 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,760 outsourcing these things is that the best is really the best way 538 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,800 forward. Because then you're bringing in 539 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,960 a real expert for some of these things who can help you navigate 540 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,720 and who can really consult on what changes you you need to 541 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,080 make versus what changes you you need to think about potentially 542 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,720 making as you know time goes on and decisions are made. 543 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:03,120 So Brian, thank you so much for another great policy pulse. 544 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,640 I don't know which number this is, but I feel like it's number 545 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,480 5 or 6. I think we've been going strong 546 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,440 for a few months here. We have been, yeah. 547 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,840 And I, I think we've got at least another few months of, of 548 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,000 some, some rapid developments, yes. 549 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:17,960 I think so. I think so. 550 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,280 So in that case, I'll let you go and I will see you in another 551 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:23,800 month as well. All the listeners. 552 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,560 So thank you so much again for all of your insights and helping 553 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,320 us to navigate some of these upcoming potential changes. 554 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:32,720 Thank you, Tracy. Appreciate it. 555 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,640 Hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to the. 556 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,720 Show so that. You are the first to hear when 557 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,320 an episode drops. Each week. 558 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,400 And maybe leave a five star review and a comment about how 559 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,160 much you love this episode. Plus, if you have someone in 560 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,640 mind who would really enjoy this episode, make sure you share it 561 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,640 with them. Thank you so much for tuning in 562 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,000 and I'll see you next week.