Welcome to the bringing the human Back To Human Resources,
podcast, the podcast, all about the delicate balance between
people and business. And quite literally reconnecting
the to my name is Tracy Ruben, and I've spent nearly my entire
professional career in h.r., join me as I share stories
opinions and words of advice with you each week.
Hey everyone. Welcome back to bringing the
human Back To Human Resources. This is Tracy Ruben.
As you are growing to know me. I have to tell you, I'm super
excited about this episode and actually it's been a really
podcast heavy day for me because I actually was a guest on
another podcast so more to come on that.
If you're interested in hearing the podcast that I will be on.
I don't know when it will be released, but follow me on.
Graham and you'll hear more information there.
So this week, I'm going to spend some time talking about feedback
and specifically giving feedback.
It's a topic that a lot of people try to avoid.
It's something in general that a lot of people try to avoid but
it's the one thing that just can't be avoided.
There are a few points that I want to touch on the first is
that feedback can be way more than just giving - or
constructive feedback. It's actually something That
managers and employees should use for positive reinforcement
as well. So to give you an example in my
career and experience, I've had to give a whole lot of feedback
and whenever I start out or plan to give someone feedback, I
actually give them a verbal cue. Like hey I have some feedback
for you or would it be okay if I gave you some feedback?
And usually they immediately someone's Mind goes to the - and
actually so many of you reached out on Instagram when I posted
to my stories that I would be talking about feedback on this
episode and so much of what I received was.
I want to know what I'm doing wrong.
I need to know specifically what I need to do differently and
actually this is exactly my point that feedback isn't always
- it's not always constructive and I encourage you if you're a
manager or or an employee to use feedback more often for the
things that you want to see continued.
It's really a great tool for what I would call managing up
and this is a super common term in business and especially in
h.r., a really strong leader, or a strong employee is going to
know how to manage up. And really what that means is
being able to give feedback to your supervisor or to the person
that you report into, and also kind of have an impact on Our
performance. I would say that managing up and
being able to manage up, well, is potentially more critical
than receiving feedback as an employee.
So, in my role right now, as a director of HR, I don't
necessarily get as much feedback from my boss, as I do from my
partners in the field or in the corporate team, or my peers and
that's okay for me because actually, it's my peers and my
My partners whose feedback Matters Most At This stage in my
career, because every action that I take or don't take
directly impacts them. And so if there's feedback that
they have for me, it's critical that I know that, of course, my
supervisors feedback is important to me, but I provide
deliverables and I very seldom miss those deliverables.
So, the feedback that I would get is A positive.
And so managing up coming back to this point.
If an employee or if you have someone who you report into,
that's not really doing things the way that you want them to or
in a way that's effective or efficient or you have feedback
for them. It's the managing up, that's
really critical. So taking an opportunity to say,
hey, in the future. Can we do this or that?
And it doesn't necessarily feel like feedback but it is is and
so one of the things that I think will get into today is the
strategy and feedback and the way that we plan giving feedback
and so I hope that the messages throughout this episode
translate for you and either role that you play.
So outside of giving negative or positive feedback, it's also
important to make the feedback really clear.
So I already shared that I give a verbal cue.
Before I go into feedback and that's because I want to set the
person up to be prepared to receive feedback.
It is hard for a lot of people to receive feedback because this
is a comment on their performance, their leadership.
And again, it could be positive. But we immediately go to the -
probably because we're hard on ourselves and we assume that
there's something that we've done wrong.
I know for sure that I have been there.
And I thought, oh my goodness, my boss is about to give me
feedback, what did I do wrong? And then I'm running through
situations in my head and I either figure something out.
I make something up or I'm stumped.
And then what usually happens is that the conversation is
completely different than I imagined it to be.
And so for our employees or for ourselves being prepared for
that feedback is sometimes a third of the battle because you
have to prepare them, they have to hear it.
You actually have to deliver it so when addressing feedback or
going into a conversation where feedback is given, there are a
few tips that I want to give you the first is plan it out know
the points that you want to touch on and make sure you hit
those points. Also be prepared for someone
who's defensive. And so how are you going to
navigate a conversation that is potentially difficult?
You know, like there are conversations that Can be really
hard. And I think we all probably have
a story of, you know, a situation where we were giving
feedback and it was not easy to do.
So have a plan in place so that, you know, exactly what you want
to get out of the conversation and, you know, exactly what you
need from your employer, or from the person you're giving
feedback to. Once you have your plan, think
about also planning where you're going to give the feedback you
really want to make sure that you're setting up the person for
success. That's the whole point of
feedback is Care about the person you care about their
success. And so, you're giving them
feedback so that they can improve or they can continue
what they're doing. Well, and so I think a big part
of this is understanding that people don't always like to hear
things that they should change. They like to hear recognition,
of course. That's super easy to hear, but
when it comes to constructive feedback, picking a place that's
private can help you to ensuring that the person is open to what
you're what you're going to say. And to hearing all of the
feedback that you might have, especially if it's going to be a
difficult conversation or one, that's more constructive asking
for changes. So, so far have a plan and have
the conversation in a place, that's conducive to openness.
And then, third be direct. There are people who don't want
direct messages, but there are ways that you can deliver a
direct message that are constructive and productive.
I think part of this is also knowing what your person,
whoever, you're giving feedback to knowing how they prefer
feedback sometimes I think that this is the learned over time.
Like, as we get to know our employees or our peers, but
sometimes you actually have to ask and I have a story about
this actually that I want to share and I'm going to be super
vulnerable here. So recently, I gave someone who
works at my company feedback and it was feedback.
Is constructive and also feedback that I knew would be
difficult to hear the person. I gave feedback to had recently.
Had a handful of employees exit the business and resign for
other opportunities and specifically requested exit
interviews, which usually is a sign that they didn't have a
good experience. And in those exit interviews,
they specifically said that they were dissatisfied with their
leader, this manager and I shared this on a previous
episode that I prioritize relationships in everything that
I do and this manager and I I, you know, I know this manager
fairly well, but I don't, I don't think I've ever had to
give the manager feedback before and I always prefer to give the
manager feedback directly especially when it's serious
like this where we've had, you know, a handful of more than
more than Two people leave and a month's time.
And so knowing this person's communication, I was like okay
this managers pretty direct like I think that they can hear a
direct message and I can probably be pretty
straightforward and then also provide some of the tips that
they should really think about in order to make some changes
and improvements. So I scheduled a call and I
provided this manager feedback and it was direct in the sense
that I said Hey listen, this is a problem that We need to solve
turnover in this way, with a trend of feedback that I've
received that I'm not sharing with you is not, it's not a good
thing because it points to your leadership.
However, you're a strong, talented high, potential
manager, who can make the changes necessary to get back on
the right track. Your business is great but it's
not going to mean as much if you continue to turn over your
That's a hard message to receive and I said it exactly that way.
But actually the manager then felt that the feedback I
provided was confrontational. But when it comes to my
employees, I always think about how can I get them to be their
best selves, how can I give them feedback in a way that they're
going to take away the underlying message, but also in
Acts? Some action and change.
So if the message was received that way, there's actually more
to break down and listen, during this conversation, the manager
did not openly accept the feedback.
The manager was Defensive, fought me on the feedback, had
an answer for everything. And I had to remind the manager.
Listen, I'm giving you this feedback because I care about
your success. That is what I say, even if the
feedback is positive and in this, Actually even though the
feedback was really tough, it's still positive.
Right because what's my message, you're a talented,
high-performing manager who shouldn't have these problems so
let's fix them. And what's so interesting is
that I gave this person direct feedback because the person said
I like feedback as a straight shot.
I like it direct and that's you know that's how I prefer to hear
feedback if that's how you prefer to hear feedback.
I'm going to deliver the feed. Back that way, right?
Because someone who wants a direct message is not going to
want something that's a little bit more fluffy and maybe not
exactly directly to the point. But someone who says, you know,
listen it's hard for me to take a direct message.
So you know let's let's ease into this.
Like people need to know exactly how they take feedback and they
have to be honest about that it's okay to say I don't really
like a direct message. I prefer that we kind of break
things down. Walk me through it.
Don't go right into it. Like let's break it down.
Down in might be a longer conversation but that's the best
way for me to receive feedback. But this manager never says that
this manager always says, I give and receive feedback very
directly this manager Now is really feeling defensive because
the feedback is super, you know, it's super pointed and this is
feedback about the managers leadership and that's extremely
difficult to hear. And so I finished the
conversation by saying listen, I'm always here for you anytime
you want to talk about a solution or a way to apply a
solution. Let's talk through it and I
meant that I don't you guys know.
I mean II talked about authenticity, right?
I'm not going to say something, I don't mean so I'd never
received this feedback this type of feedback before and it didn't
given that this feedback was provided about our conversation.
It was clear that my message didn't didn't register, right?
So I ended up reaching out to this manager and reiterating.
All of the points that I shared on our original call.
I care about you. That's why I'm giving you
feedback. I want you to be successful.
These are things that are a problem and we need to fix them.
So, I rounded out the email by saying, let's connect when I'm
back after Thanksgiving and iron this out.
Because the the key here is that there is a problem that needs a
solution and the problem is that you have top talent and Key
employees turning over and sharing that.
It's because of your leadership. And that is a easily solved
problem because you're a high-potential talented manager
who can easily solve this problem.
And ultimately, the manager replied saying they're looking
forward to the conversation. But even for me, I'm sharing
this story because someone who I would say I'm pretty experienced
in giving feedback. I've received a lot of feedback
I think it's very important even in situations like this where
it's tough to give or tough to receive still.
We can have a breakdown because a lack of openness to feedback
can make it really challenging to actually affect change when
there needs to be some change. So, I'll report back and let you
know what's what's to come from our meeting.
But all I can say is that I really care about the success of
this manager and All of the employees that work for my
company. And so this is all to say, that
feedback doesn't always have to be something.
We react defensively to. It can be seen as something
that's constructive and positive.
And I think one of the takeaways here, that I would hope this
manager has is that oh, wow, I've established a really strong
relationship with Tracy over these last few years.
I know she's coming from a good place, right?
Like this is where the relationship matters so much.
But what I do know is that as this managers HR partner, it's
my obligation to make sure that this manager walks away, feeling
supported and understanding what the feedback is and what the
change can can be. So I actually received a lot of
comments on Instagram and Linkedin about wanting Solutions
and ways to change when being given feedback as well.
And I thought this was a really interesting theme that came up.
Up because it comes back to this point that feedback isn't always
about providing Solutions or isn't always about something
that needs to change, but this is something that first and
foremost came to mind for a handful of people.
So this is a really good point and clearly it matters to people
when you sit down and you give feedback and you have that
conversation, are you circling back on the things that we need
to see on the things that you expect?
So from Manager perspective, are you at the end of the
conversation saying okay, so you've struggled a bit to
communicate when something has changed.
So this is what I need from you. I need you to come back to me.
I need you to do XY and z, or are you just saying?
Okay, thanks for your time, that follow through that action,
that's required, the solution that you're looking for.
All of that is really important. Not everyone is in a place in
their career where they really need all of that.
Follow through all of that coaching, Why, however, if
someone's new in their role, if someone is recently promoted or
fairly new to the company, for example, they're going to need
more of that follow through. They need a coach and that's
kind of where, as a manager you need to be Savvy enough or
develop a strategy around how you're going to manage your
team. You can't just close your eyes
and walk around with your finger out and figure out a way to do
it. Managing takes planning.
It takes intention and it takes thought.
So when it does come to that feedback to these individuals
points where they said, hey I need to know exactly what my
manager needs and I wish that they would provide some
solutions sometimes that is actually a really good talking
point. So being in that conversation
and saying, hey do you want to talk through some strategies and
in terms of how we can action some change and if the employee
says no, then that's great. If the employee says, yeah.
Actually, that would be great. Then, that's great too.
But assuming that just because you've given the feedback and
you slam it on the table and you walk away, assuming that that's
enough just isn't enough, right? Like sometimes that follow
through and that circling back or closing the loop whatever
analogy you want to use, sometimes that comes down to
asking the question of, what more do you need from me?
Do you want to walk? Through an action plan.
What ideas do you have? That can mean the world of a
difference in how that person walks away from the
conversation. So my last point on feedback for
today is actually that I asked and surveyed individuals who are
connected with me on Instagram, and on LinkedIn.
And I said, where I asked what's most important about feedback or
giving feedback. And I asked, is it the roost
Ends. Openness, is it tone and
communication style? Is it preparation planning, or
is it setting and 80% of people collectively said that its tone
and communication Style So this is really interesting because
for whatever reason I guess I was thinking that there would be
more of an answer from open it or for openness from the
recipient because when I think of asking the question around
giving feedback I think that someone's going to think, okay
well if I'm going to give feedback I need the person to
receive it. Well but actually what's so
interesting is that the way that this question was received by
those I don't know, 50 people who answered the survey is
respectively between Instagram and Linkedin.
Is that even when giving feedback, they're thinking that,
tone and communication style is the most important and I can't
disagree. It's really important.
It's one of the reasons why I share that story from before,
where I was so intentional and delivering the feedback in the
way that the manager has always shared that they want it to be
delivered to them. And in a way that Really clearly
understood but still holding and towing that line of, of course,
professional and clear. But when we think of tone and
communication style, what does this mean?
This probably means that people really don't want to receive a
message from someone who isn't nice, right?
Like I can think of when I've received feedback from someone
who communicated in a way that was aggressive and rude.
And I have given those individuals feedback.
Directly saying, please don't communicate to me in that way.
Your feedback is aggressive and rude, and there's a way to
deliver it and when you have someone, giving you feedback who
doesn't care about you or doesn't really care about what
how you feel. Yeah.
The tone and communication is going to be really off and so I
can see why that was the winner by the clear majority on the
surveys, because no one wants to receive feedback from someone
who doesn't consider tone and communication Style.
Unless that not all feedback can be planned and thought out in
that way. Sometimes feedback is right in
the moment. I've had to give a lot of
feedback feedback to managers recently, especially, with these
new covid, restrictions being really clear and very direct is
basically an obligation at this point.
And so if I'm not direct and clear and giving feedback in the
moment, I'm not doing my job and I'm certainly not prioritize.
Seeing the health and safety of my team and our clients.
So there are moments where you can't necessarily think or
prepare or plan and have a whole situation thought-out around
what the feedback is or the feedback that you're going to
provide because sometimes just time isn't on your side.
And that's really where I would encourage you to kind of get
your communication right now. Figure out what your leadership
style. Is figure out how you
communicate and develop best practices.
Is that every time you communicate you have a Baseline
and then that way it's like muscle memory so when you do
have to give feedback, you can give a quick thought into what
your message is. And then your Baseline will be
the way that you communicate and listen.
There are also industry specific ways in which feedback happens,
like we had dr. Turn off on the podcast and he's
in medicine in medicine. They don't care about tone and
communication. Because if there's an emergency
and you do, I'm wrong. You're going to hear it, you're
going to know. There is no time for beating
around the bush, right? So maybe in my industry and
Retail, there's a little bit more time to plan, there's a
little bit more time to be less direct.
So, take some of that, with a grain of salt to, depending on
the industry that you're in, I'd love to hear your feedback and
your thoughts on the points that I've shared in this episode.
So, please again, reach out to me.
I want this to be a conversation.
I'm hoping we can get more conversations.
Lying in the comments and just in general through my DMs.
Because I really look forward to speaking to everyone on an
individual basis. If not in a group basis, So I'm
going to shift gears to a little story and it comes back actually
to the salary conversation. I got a lot of really wonderful
feedback about last week's episodes of thank you for those
of you who did Reach Out And for those of you who listen to maybe
didn't reach out. So I actually was told that
someone listened to my advice about Asking for a raise, even
if you think you're not going to get it.
And I am here to share with you that the person got a raise even
during this time and when I got that notification, I was
ecstatic, not only because my feedback worked, but because the
person did it, they asked they were a little nervous albeit
about asking for what they wanted.
It but they did it and they got the result, they wanted--,
there's nothing better than giving advice and hearing that
it worked like I was ecstatic. So I'm sure you're listening.
I know, I know you're listening well done, congratulations on
your raise you deserve it, super exciting and thank you for
putting some of my advice into action.
I hope that it inspires others to do the same.
And actually on that note, I am going to quickly round out
today's Coming back to the salary Point again.
Someone recently asked me in my DMs on Instagram.
Like how do I figure out where I stand with the market?
Because I guess I said in a story that you can, you know,
where are you getting your salary understanding from?
Because the person said that they still feel like they're not
getting paid enough and I said, like, is this because you feel,
it's not enough because of the way that you value yourself or
is this because of where you stand in the market and so they
said well how do I know where I stand in the market?
So my answer is that you can actually go on glass door, you
can go on LinkedIn, you can go on pay scale and those websites
actually asked a series of questions around your salary.
How many years of experience you have?
How large the company that you work for is where you live all
of the factors that kind of make up someone's salary?
They asked and that's where you Pretty much figure out what the
market rate is. I think in some cases it's a
little low, some cases, it's a little high really kind of
depends on the data points that you're entering in.
Like to give you an example. I did that in my last roll
before I was promoted and I was like, where do I stand like a my
in marketing, my out of market, and actually, I was in market
and I still felt like it was a little Slow.
But actually, it made me feel a little bit better that.
Okay. I'm, I feel it's a little low
because of the value. I place on myself and the work
that I do, but it's not necessarily low compared to the
market and so, that was kind of nice.
So I encourage you, if you're evaluating your salary, and you
feel like you're low or you're, not sure where you stand head to
those websites and check out their salary, estimator, they're
called different things. Maybe I can, I can post it on
Instagram to show you But it's a great resource and you can go on
interviews and you can ask what people are paying but just keep
in mind what someone is paying in one role or company isn't
necessarily what the market is calling for.
There are so many factors like I said, there's location there's
size of the company, there's Revenue like there's so much
that goes into what comprises a salary but it's a good way to do
some market research on your own.
As well. Recently I'm going to start
laughing recently for work. We had a little like
Thanksgiving virtual lunch, and we played a bingo game and one
of the Bingo squares was to share a story or that if someone
had a story like a turkey disaster story.
So I don't have a turkey eating disaster story because actually
I'm a pescetarian. So I don't eat turkey to begin
with but I A turkey disaster story completely removed from
Thanksgiving that I thought would be fun to share.
So when I was in high school in New Jersey, where I'm from, we
actually went into a lockdown because of an overzealous turkey
hunter. Yes.
That's you heard that right? An overzealous turkey under
eyes. I'm just going to start laughing
now. And basically, a man was walking
around the high school or close enough to the high school with a
shotgun. Looking to hunt wild turkey.
Now, I should share that. This part of New Jersey is not
rural. It is right near Rutgers
University which is a very very Urban populated area and so
there I struggle to understand or put into words to justify how
there would be one a wild turkey to a wild turkey hunter who's
overzealous That's my turkey disaster story.
So hopefully you don't have the same story unless you went to
high school with me which I handful of you did if you're
listening. So all I can say is that on that
note, I hope that you all steer clear of overzealous wild turkey
hunters and have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
I'm grateful to all of you who listen to all of you who have
subscribed and there's so much to be grateful for even in this
crazy year. And so all I can say is thank
you, as always. Guys, please make sure that you
subscribe rate and review wherever you are listening to
this podcast. And please be sure to follow me
on Instagram at HR. Tracy, that's HRT raci.
And you can connect with me on LinkedIn to please.
Feel free to send me messages, comments, anything related to
these topics or more topics that you want to hear and please
reach out. If you have questions specific
to your own situations as well. Thank you guys so much, see you
next week.