Here's something I recently learned that really stuck with
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through the summer with my twins a couple years ago, but that's
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Stay cozy. Welcome to the Bringing the
human back to human Resources podcast.
I'm Tracy Chernoff and I've spent my entire professional
career in HR Each week, we'll explore the delicate balance
between people and business with the aim to reconnect the two and
create meaningful outcomes. Listen in as I share my own
experiences, challenge the status quo, and chat with guests
from various industries about our mission to bring the human
back to human resources. Hi everyone, welcome back to the
Bringing the Human Back to human Resources podcast.
Thank you so much for being here for another week.
You know what to do. Don't forget to rate, review and
subscribe. I'm so excited to introduce you
to Topaz Adidas Adizas, an Emmy award-winning writer, director,
and experience design architect. He is the author of 12 Questions
for Love, a guide to intimate conversations to deepen
relationships. He's a master student of human
behavior, having the honored to an opportunity to witness over
1200 courageous conversations over the last 11 years with his
award-winning format, the and he is an Edmund Hillary Fellow and
Sundance Skulls Stories of Change Fellow.
His works have been selected to CAN, Sundance, IDFA and South by
Southwest, featured in New Yorker Magazine, Vanity Fair and
The New York Times, and have garnered an Emmy, an Emmy for
New Approaches to documentary, and two World Press Photo Awards
for immersive storytelling and interactive documentary.
He is currently the founder and executive director for the
experience design studio The Skin Deep and Topaz has studied
philosophy at UC Berkeley and Oxford University.
He also speaks 4 languages and currently lives in Uruguay with
his wife and two children. Topaz, what a bio.
My goodness, you have so many a. Whole mouthful, My God.
I know I was like, I'm going to get through it.
I'm going to get through. It's like a tongue twister.
It's like I gotta simplify that. My simplified version is like
Topaz. He sells.
I sell questions. That's it.
What questions do you have? No, don't simplify it.
Don't simplify it because that is like your whole lifes journey
all wrapped into one package. So I think, I think, you know,
it's just on us to make sure we we give it the, the emphasis
that it deserves. Too kind.
But thank you so much for, for
being here and for, for chatting with me this week.
I mean, one of the things that really caught my attention when
we first chatted and when you and your team reached out was
this idea of how we ask questions, how we listen.
I know this, this is a really big part of, of how you look at
the world. So maybe we start there.
How do, how does listening, how do asking the right questions,
how does that all impact our lives, whether it's in the
workplace or personally? Well, I guess maybe the
listener. Just wondering, why would I give
this guy another half hour of my time?
It's because my experience has been based on the last 11.
Now we're starting the 12th year.
We're halfway through the 12th year of witnessing really
incredible conversations between all kinds of pairs, people in
all kinds of relationships, whether it's Co workers, best
friends, exes, grandparents, their children, brothers,
sisters, right. And I've that's an honored
position to witness all these incredible conversations because
if you think about where else, where do you really get to see
all these the, the vulnerable conversations, the courageous
conversations that people have. I've been doing that for the
last 12 years. That's what's sold the learnings
is sold in the book 12 Questions for Love.
But ultimately what I've learned is 2 things.
You have to create the space and you have to construct well
constructed questions. And that's easier said than done
because I think a lot of us don't know how to construct
really good questions. And ultimately what I've
realized from the last year and a half of doing all these
podcasts is that what I've seen is the most sticky is that I
don't think people understand as much that the question is the
answer. The question is the answer.
So you have two twins. If you ask your twins, do you
want to go to sleep tonight? Yes or no?
Those are the 2 answers, right? So you know the answer's going
to be no. What is going to?
Be their answer is going to be no, but my answer is yes I need.
Yes, exactly. But your question is already
shaping 2 possibilities, yes or no.
Now if you change the question and you say hey guys, kiddos do
you want to sleep on the bed or on the couch?
Staying awake is not a possibility.
It's a very simple way to articulate that the question
shapes the answer. And yet our focus in our work,
in our personal life, in public life, it's always on finding the
answer. And we put so much emphasis on
the answer and finding the answer.
And that's not where the power lies.
The power lies in constructing the question.
So if you're saying should I keep my job, yes or no?
What if you change the question? What if you change the question
to what can I do in the next 6 months so that I feel
challenged, so that I can feel uncomfortable but grow such that
I can contribute to my family or such that I can contribute to
the 'cause I find most or such that I could position myself in
a way that I could be really help contribute to my
organization in two years, construct a better question.
New possibilities arise. And we don't spend time on the
questions. We spend time on the answers
because that's what we've been trained to do.
That's what society trains us, right?
It's like when you meet somebody, they go.
One of the first questions is the classic line, What do you
do, right? What about asking what do you do
with your valuable time? Because like you, your mother,
you have two twins. You're also running your own
business. Maybe your most valuable time is
that one hour after they go to bed.
What are you doing then? Are you playing music?
Are you reading a book? Are you working?
What are you doing with your most valuable time?
Might say more about you than what you do.
Yeah, definitely. Right.
So the power is in the question and the question shapes the
answer. And that's why I say the
question is the answer. I love when you focus all on the
answer, focus on the question. But yeah, that sounds easy.
But then like, great, now how do we construct better questions?
But I think, and then we can go into there, but I think that's
like a big learning I've seen from all these conversations.
You got to create the space so people feel safe but
uncomfortable. We can talk about that
distinction is different. You can be safe but
uncomfortable. And often times people feel
uncomfortable and then think they're unsafe.
But if you have to give that a longer thought and say, wait,
wait, wait, wait. I'm, am I in a safe space and
I'm uncomfortable? Oh, that's actually where I want
to be. Why?
Because the discomfort means I want to grow and the safety
means I'm not going to die or something's not going to get
destroyed totally. And then the second one is how
do you construct questions? How do you do well constructed
questions that reinforces that space of safety but leans into
discomfort so that you can grow. And then you can apply this
thinking to the workplace, to your personal life, to your
relationships. I think it's great advice.
I love that you started off with this.
You know, the question is the answer.
And I was looking to the side. I'm like, OK, I'm, I'm going to
get there. I'm going to, I'm going to
understand exactly what you're saying, right?
Listening, active. Hopefully the listeners are also
actively listening, which is a big part of this.
And you took us to exactly what that means, which is really
helpful because when I think about, at least in the
workplace, we can all think of examples where we've had to
navigate some difficult situations and we try to
overcome them. And sometimes we're like, OK,
well, I'm just going to find out more information before I jump
to conclusions. And I'm going to find out more
information. And to your point, a lot of how
we get additional information comes down to the way that we
ask for that additional information.
So that's a really interesting perspective because I also
think, you know, if I even just think about my own career, I've
had situations where I'm like, OK, I'm going to coach up.
I'm going to, I'm going to manage up, meaning I'm going to
coach my manager so they lead me better or in a way that I want
to be led. And it's like, well, some of
those questions are like, well, why did you make this decision
or why, you know, just general questions.
Why did you make this decision? Where is this coming from?
Are there changes? But those questions don't
necessarily get you to that next level where you're really trying
to help your manager see that you don't have the information.
You want them to share information with you.
And there's a different way to get more from them.
And it's just, I think it's a real example for a lot of people
because you always hear these statistics that people work for
people and they leave when they're not working for the
right people. And it, I'm coming to this
because one of the things that you just mentioned was safety
and, you know, being able to feel challenged and that
sometimes when people, or I should say, being in that level
of discomfort, when people do feel discomfort, they get this
fight or flight and they just leave rather than sitting in it
and realizing that they are in a safe space and they need to
allow themselves to feel all of that.
And so coming back to this example where you have maybe a
leader that you need leading you differently, or you're working
with someone who isn't exactly, you know, someone that you'd
prefer to work with there you, you do have to kind of go
through those steps to say, OK, am I in a place where I can
address this? Am I in a place where I can push
For more information? And beyond that, if I am in an
in an uncomfortable situation, like am I safe in that
uncomfortable situation? And that last part is hard.
Oh my God, yeah. I think being, you mean being
feeling safe in an uncomfortable situation That's hard.
Is that what you're saying? That and just feeling
uncomfortable and not just running away from it.
Well, look, I think I think that is, look, one thing I've learned
from watching so many conversations is that it's not
about having the answer or even the right answer or even the
sufficient answer. It's that's not going to tell
you the success of the relationship.
What's going to indicate the success relationship is are they
capable of sitting in the discomfort of the question?
Like we don't have to get to the answer because sometimes the
answer doesn't just show up right now, especially if you're
asking like a deep question or complicated question.
Like maybe you need time to sit in that.
Maybe you need the time to sit in the like the idea like you
understand that you and your partner or you and your
colleague at work or whoever and your friend, maybe you have
different opinions and you got to sit in that discomfort.
But the sitting in the discomfort suggests that like,
hey, there's something stronger between us.
There's an underlying value between us that enables us to
sit in the discomfort of the space because we know it's safe.
Why? Because I know you don't want to
stab me in the back. I don't want to stab you in the
back. We might have different
opinions, but I know that you love your children like I love
my children. So like, let's find the common
value or like, how do we sit in the space of discomfort?
That's going to be the practice of the future.
Why? Because the practice of the
present is just swipe left or right or up or down immediately.
As soon as you don't see, you see something you don't like,
you know, or not responding to the DM or not, or not calling
your friend back or just hanging up or just not calling them for
three months, you know, or leaving your job or firing the
person that works for you, right?
It's like, and, and, and you get good at what you practice.
And we are being trained by the current social media and then
soon even AI because things would get so much faster of just
done. Next, this is work.
Next. I don't want that.
I want this, I want that great. But life is there's fallibility
in life and life is great. And when you're dealing with
other humans, you're dealing with emotions.
And so you have to be able to practice the the, the practice
of sitting in the discomfort. Yeah.
And that, I think is. So if you're looking for a,
let's say, let's flip this. If you're looking to hire
someone, try to see how they sit in discomfort.
Maybe ask them a uncomfortable question in the interview.
You know, maybe offer them the opportunity to ask you an
uncomfortable question and if you're looking, could you say
you work for people? Because ultimately it's like the
person that you're working with are for.
Can you see how they sit in discomfort?
Can you see how they, if they, you like look, nobody likes to
sit in discomfort. But on the flip side of
discomfort is growth. If you look at every great
achievement you've had, every one of your proudest moments, I
mean, just imagine 1, you won an award, you did something, people
are clap, you succeeded in some campaign or some project or
something. I promise you an hour before,
three months before, 2 weeks before you were stressed, you
were anxious because you were uncomfortable, you had to
stretch, you were going for that goal.
You were scared to talk in front of people.
You weren't sure if the if the rest of the team would like the
campaign idea you suggested. So you really worked on it for
three nights on the slides and then, you know, you're anxious
and then you hear butterflies and you present it and they're
like, this is brilliant, thank you so much.
And then it succeeded and you're like, wow, great achievement.
The achievement is commensurate to the anxiety and the
discomfort you had prior to achieving that.
So when you have moments of discomfort, you can go wait,
there's a lesson here, there's growth here, let's do it.
And I think the key part is, is it a safe space?
Yeah, the safety is really important and I think sometimes
it's easy to forget when we are the individual feeling these
things and, you know, trying to measure are we in a safe space?
This is uncomfortable that the other person on the other side
of the conversation could be going through that same, you
know, thought process. Especially when we think about
employee to manager or colleague to colleague.
There are there are so many reasons why people behave badly
or act out in workplaces or are difficult to work with beyond
the scope that I have like this. This requires a whole like
psychological assessment as to why people are the way that they
are. And it all goes back to how
they're they're raised. But if we think about just a
classic dynamic of employee to manager, it's easy for us as an
employee to say my manager sucks.
They don't care about me. They're always yelling or they
they don't have my best interest.
They never tell me anything. But we have no idea.
Not to justify, you know, poor decision making or
communication, but we have no idea what that manager might be
feeling like. Are they in a space where they
feel safe? Do they have they had the
exposure or the experience to be able to know the proper way to
navigate managing people? And so I think a lot of this,
and it actually does come back to what you mentioned around AI
and certainly social media and what I would consider this like
instant gratification culture, that it's so hard I think for
people to remember that there is another person on the other side
of a conversation that we have to give some grace to and that
there's consideration there in certain circumstances.
Obviously, you know, there are there are some exceptions to
that rule. But when I think about this
instant gratification culture, a quick story here.
I, I recently saw a friend they just had a son a few months ago
and we were introducing our kids to him and one of their friends
was like, you know, my, my son is like 8 and he like he, we
order something on Amazon. He expects it to be there
tomorrow. Like there is even same day.
And it made me like a real right.
It made me like I had a moment where I just like stopped.
I almost stopped breathing for a moment because I was like, whoa,
When I was a kid, that didn't even exist.
Like, we would have to go to the store, God forbid, and we would
have to shop in person. And if it they didn't, if a
store didn't have an item you were looking for, you had to
find another place to get it. Maybe it was eBay.
Maybe it was somewhere, you know, in another state.
Like it was just a totally different world.
And this is not so long ago. But I was thinking about that
just even from the perspective of my own kids that Oh my gosh,
is, is that level of instant gratification that swipe left,
swipe right. If I don't see what I like and
I'm not going to give anything or anyone the time of day, I'm
just going to expect and and look for what I want, what is
the implication of that on everything, on society, on
people, on our lives, on work. And yeah, I I still haven't even
processed all of that. Like I still am asking those
questions. But then take it to the next
level of and now we're going to engage with AI.
Right. I mean, are your kids going to
need teachers when they can have an infinitely they can have an
infinitely patient. So it's it's always there, it's
always patient. It knows everything and it knows
exactly how to talk to you. So if your kid loves hip hop and
it wants to learn about space, you can ask chat CBT or any of
them and go, Hey, teach me about Uranus, teach me about Saturn,
but give it to me in a hip hop song and it will.
Oh, no, no, I don't understand that.
You know what? Can you do it again?
No, no, no, I have this other. Do it again.
Now you do that to a teacher. My God.
They might lose their humanity and lose humans lose patience.
So the incident, the instant like what's coming into it is
not just our consumable items, but also our information in the
way it can come to us. And so then that really, And
then also in the workspace, I mean, in time, you're going to
spend as much time speaking to humans as you're talking to AI,
no matter. And then what happens, it's
going to get easier to talk to AI because doesn't have an
attitude back. It does whatever you say, you
know, you can train it to like you could, you could give it
instructions to say you're a brilliant, you're brilliant.
Or, you know, don't even you don't even command me.
Just give me the facts. You can tell it how to respond
to you, exactly how you want to respond.
It's a mirror back to you and however you want.
Humans are not like that, not at all.
So then you're going to start thinking, wait, why am I
handling these humans? And So what we need to focus
think about? The thing actually she speaks to
like the title of your podcast, right, is like, why do we bring
more humanity into the workspace?
What's the payoff of that? It's a valid question.
It's one that we need to answer and we have to explore because
if there's no payoff, they're bringing more humans in the
workplace, then it's just going to be one man organization, one
person, one human, one woman or non binary organizations with 15
AI agents. So where, what is the value of
bringing humans into the workplace?
In my opinion, it's in the differences.
It's in the differences. That's where the gold is going
to be. That's where the opportunities
are going to be. Because an AI node, any piece of
AI is learning at the same time ubiquitously.
So you imagine for a moment that an AI is like all the kids in
the world. Just imagine, right?
It's like nodes everywhere. And if one kid learned something
in Japanese, and then all the other kids instantaneously learn
Japanese, next thing you know, you're talking to your kid in
California, start talking to Japanese.
Why? Because some kid in Japan learn
a new word and they all learned it and they're all learning at
the same time. That's how AI works.
We don't work that way at all. We have we'd see things
differently. We give the same, use the same
words, but they mean different things with different
definitions. We get confused between the,
the, the difference between are you speaking in the should
language like this is how it should be?
Is this how you want it to be? Or is this how it is?
You know, like we have those kinds of changes in, in, in, in
our viewpoints and in lieu of those differences in the space
between, that's where opportunities lie.
That's where the magic is and I think that we have to reinforce
that idea and really understand that to create the leverage so
that us as humans will actually want to engage with one another.
Otherwise we'll just go with the simple route of no conflict, no
emotions needed, no discomfort. I'm just talking to AI and it's
a one way directional conversation, even though of
course it reflects back to me, tells me how great it is, gives
me opinion. It's not really human.
It doesn't see things differently.
Not at. All right.
And I think that the onus is going to be on us as humans to
really ask ourselves what makes us really human, Where is the
true magic of being human and where are the opportunities that
we can see that no one else can, that no AI can.
And it is in our differences. That's why the practice of
sitting in discomfort, which is basically when there's
difference, becomes one of the most practices, more most
important practices to develop into home for the future. 1000%
As you were sharing your thoughts on that, I was thinking
about how amazing it is that humans created this technology.
Like that isn't an incredible thing and how terrifying it is.
Because when I think about, you know, maybe in 100 years from
now, probably less when AI is really, you know, kind of this
reigning champion in terms of how we live our lives and all
facets of what that means. There is an element to this
which we know that that's, that's just not how the world
works. It's not how life is where there
isn't this duality in thinking or there is an emotion in, in
the thought process like this. That's the that's what makes us
human. And even when we think about
other animals in the world, you know, we've seen how they've had
to adapt to changing environments.
I mean, like, I watched David Attenborough documentaries and
my husband and I just watched Ocean and I was like, why are we
watching this? This is so depressing.
Like, I was crying. I was like, this is just too
much. But it's David Attenborough.
And it was amazing. And one of the takeaways in
every documentary that he does, I think at least, is that he
tells you all of this. He and the the documentarians
tell you all about the problem and what's happening and why.
I think it's is it trawling in the ocean?
I think that's what it's called, where they're just like scraping
the ocean floor for fish and how it destroys those environments,
how that's a problem. And this overfishing is a
problem and it impacts coastal communities around the world.
And then they tell you how you can work within the changing
society and how world, the light of the world as we as we know it
has changed because of advancements in technology and
increased population. How you then can overcome those
things, restore wildlife, still fish for your communities, but
practice, you know, different conservation efforts.
So it's like when I think about that in the lens of AI, it's
like we know that AI is this amazing technology that provides
knowledge and resources to people all over the world and
all different areas of of life. And yet we also see on the
horizon some of the challenges that could come with that.
So it's like, how do we reconcile the advancement in
technology that we ultimately need?
And we've seen advancements in technology throughout, you know,
human life, this probably being the fastest.
But then it's like, OK, well, we know that this challenge is on
the horizon. What do we do now?
How do we incorporate these advancements without limiting
our ability to continue to grow and advance as humans with with
one another and still engage in what's considered normal and
healthy societal interactions? Because this like we were
talking offline about some generational differences that
come out in the workplace and how that has changed what it
means to even be a working human or working person.
And I think that when we look at AI as an example there, it's
hard to look at AI in the context of work as we knew it
even three years ago, because it was totally different than it
wasn't as strong, it wasn't as capable.
And now we see all of these changes at the, you know, on a
micro scale and then with AI at the macro scale.
So it's, I guess in my mind, I'm thinking, well, as generations
continue to evolve, they're used to social media, they are used
to this instant gratification. And now with AI adding on to
that, how do we help them to still maintain social
relationships so that when they are in a, you know, typical
workplace, they're able to succeed?
Like that's where my mind tends to go because otherwise it's
kind of hard. They're very antithetical.
Yeah. I think what comes up for me is
just what is experience you want to have, you know, to what end.
And fundamentally, that's like, what's the question you're
asking yourself? Like you're going to have all
these new tools you're going to have.
We're and we are, we humans are so good at adapting that we
what, what soon was shocking becomes normal, You know, and I,
I mean, I'm born in 76. So I remember when the VC for
the facts came out, it was shocking.
Or even bottled water, bottled water.
When bottled water came out, I was a kid and thought it was the
most ridiculous thing. Why am I drinking out of bottled
water when I can drink out of the tap?
But now drinking out of the tap is crazy.
You're going to drink out of the bottled water or so filter.
It's just right. We adapt to change so well.
I mean, I can't even imagine what it was like to do work.
And I did live in the time when you did work or coming out of
college without e-mail. And now?
Oh man, I wish about. Phones, right?
I remember like deciding do I want to get the phone on?
But we so quickly adapt that we think it's always been that way,
but it hasn't. Right.
It hasn't.
So what does that mean about this moment now?
Like asking is AI good or bad? It's irrelevant.
That question is irrelevant because it's here.
It's like a it's like you're just like social media when it
came out. Is it good or bad?
Well, that's irrelevant because it's here.
The flood is here. Maybe a better question is, what
are we going to do with it to build the future?
What is the future we want to build utilizing this technology?
So that's why, like, what is the question?
What is experience to what end? What experience I want to have?
What experience we as a society want to have?
What markers are we going to put into place now to protect us so
that we go in a certain direction that we can?
You can't stop the flood, but you can channel it.
You can channel it through your own being aware of your own
actions in your relationship, technology through public
policy, through public discourse.
What are the conversations we're having?
You know, what are the questions that we're asking?
And that will lead us to channel the energy, this technology
that's coming to an end that we want.
And I just, I again, I don't think we're asking quality
questions and that's why we're answering poor questions, which
means we're leading to a world that has, you know, more
polarization, more epidemic, pandemic of loneliness, mental
health deteriorating. Yeah, polarization is
increasing. Like, you know, what if we ask
different questions? What if in your company you ask
what do we want our grandchildren to say we're doing
right now? Like what if we change?
What if we change your question as a HR?
You know, if you're working in the HR space?
What if your question about your job is not a job description,
but a question? How can I create an environment
such that every employee, every team member feels like this
company would not be the same without them?
What if that was your job question?
Like a lot of times you have job descriptions, No?
What if we have job questions instead of having mission
statements for companies? What if we had mission
questions? Because the rate of change is
changing so fast that your mission statement now becomes
obsolete tomorrow. But your question can last
longer. Why?
Because the answer keeps changing.
And the same thing for your job. You know, like your job isn't
like I have editors in my team at the skin Deep and they're
editing on Adobe Premiere. And I'm telling them, guys, your
job is not to know how to work Adobe Premiere.
Your job is to know how to tell a story.
Your job is how even deep in that your job is how to convey
something in an emotional way that engages an audience and
moves them. So if you're using Adobe
Premiere or if you're using Google VO3 or you're using
whatever flow an AAI tool doesn't change what you're, the
question you're asking yourself is how can I make piece of
content that moves people, engages to them, right?
So like your job is not the thing you do.
It's the question you ask of yourself and then the thing you
do keeps changing with technology.
Totally this. This actually is really making
me think of a conversation I just had yesterday with someone
around social media. And for me as a content creator,
heaven forbid, I can't even that.
Like, I'm like, am I doing that? Is that what I'm doing?
You know, I, I care so much about this podcast and I care so
much about the guests. I want whatever I put out on
social media to match that. But I personally, I can't stand
being on social media. It's like one of those things
where I'm on it because it's what helps me to feel connected.
And yet every time I'm on it, I'm like, I'm wasting my life.
And so I outsource that and I have someone on my team who does
social media. And I was like, I, I was saying
to, to someone, everything that I'm seeing on LinkedIn, even my
own posts look like they are generated by AI.
And that's not my brand. That's not authenticity for me.
For some people it might be. And part of the conversation was
from my own words saying, I think it would be better for me
not to post on my social media accounts than to post, post
things that feel inauthentic or feel like I'm just doing it
because I have to. And I think that's where it's
like, you know, when I think about how we're really like
sitting in this like discomfort and thinking about what are we
contributing to as humans. As as silly as it might sound
like there is this pressure on me as a as a podcaster to be on
social media. And yet I'm like, but do I?
Do I Or like, do I just have to invest where I'm spending my
time on social media in a different way?
So what comes up for me, I think that's beautiful.
Thanks for sharing that. I think that's a really honest I
I experienced that too and a lot and two things come up for me.
One is the reality that when I say tsunami of air, like there's
a tsunami of content that's already here that's keeping is
going to keep coming like and it's all going to be synthetic
content. And I think two years ago I
heard a podcast where the researcher said, listen in two
years, which is around now about another six months, 80% of the
content you'll see online will be synthetic.
And at that moment I heard that and I totally understood that I
started hashtagging made human, made human.
And we make our, we have some of our content, like a lot of our
editing stuff, it's made human, it's made by human, it's not AI.
And if it's made by human, we hashtag made human.
I was like, because I think that's.
Important, yeah. You know, because the reality
is, is that you're a podcaster and like, what was a lake is now
becoming an ocean, or what was an ocean is now becoming beyond
an ocean. It's going to old 7-8 like at
once. How many oceans are there in the
world right now? Is it 7 or 9?
I might just I'll look it up like.
Oh my God, but the the point is what used to be is now just
going to get. I mean, there are bot farm just
creating synthetic content and all of a sudden what used to be
a haystack is now just miles of hay and you have to find that
needle. Right.
There are five oceans, by the way.
Five oceans. Thank you for clarifying.
That was quick. Did you just ask Chachi BT I did
you just got a Google same thing gem and I so, but to like the
honest is like we're going to get lost.
Your authenticity is going to get lost in just by volume of
the water rising totally. So you have to be aware of that
and you have to like, how do I stand out when the world the
water rises? How is it?
How am I going to make it easier for people to find the needle in
the haystack when the haystack is not just a haystack anymore?
It's a whole village of hay. It's like a whole pop, you know.
OK, so that's 1/2 is like, I suggest doing a substitution for
you. You're saying social media.
Social media carries all this context for you and and it has
like this connotation and that connotation that like algorithm
for you doesn't work for you. So give it a different name,
call it something else. Don't call it social media.
Call it the tributaries, call it the rivers, call it whatever the
ether. Give it a new thing and have a
different relationship to it. Because what if we refrained it
and say, like, Tracy, it's not social media.
It's like, yeah, there's all this shit out there and like
you're offering people a corner of humanity in that shit.
Now, if you frame it that way, maybe you're like, OK, cool.
I wanna, I wanna like I see, I see the work that the skin deep
does that we do is a digital dose of humanity.
And so and and I know that's true because we're not as big as
we could, because we don't, we don't make our edits to engage
with fear and fury. And we could, believe me, we
have so many conversations that we could re edit and my God,
that we intentionally edit against the toxicity because we
know that like this is going to go viral, but a bunch of people
are just going to talk smack and troll this person.
And what's the value in that? There's so much content out
there that's doing that already. There's no value in that.
So instead, how do we edit this in a way that there's actually
value? And if that means, you know, 10X
less people watch it, but they get that much more value.
And we're creating a, a corner of the Internet where you can
sense humanity that's got longer tuned value because that's the
game we're playing. So I suggest you, you do a
substitution and don't call it social media anymore and change
the what you call it and change your relationship to it so that
you can engage with it. Because to the first point, it's
inevitable. I mean, you're there, that's how
you get out there. I mean, right?
Yeah, it's true. I like that reframing.
You know, so, so often on my podcast there are discussions
around like mindset shifts and how we have to flip the script.
And it's always very easy for me to talk about that for others.
And yeah, it's like, how do I do it for myself?
And you know, the thing about standing out that I thought
about as you were saying that with relation to AI is that even
like at a very fundamental level, we see this like in my
industry, at least with resumes, I part of my business is helping
clients with their resumes and interview preparation.
And sometimes people will ask me when we're engaging in this, you
know, kind of back and forth on whether they want me to help
them or not. It's like, well, why can't I
just use Chachi PT? Why can't I just use AI or Canva
to create my resume? It's like you can sure you could
do whatever you want to do. It's comes down to whether or
not you're standing out. The value is having someone who
is a human being getting to speak with you, getting to
understand your background to help you create your best self
on paper. And you know, it's at first I
remember thinking, oh man, am I going to like get run out of
town by AI because people are going to start writing their
resumes using these AI tools. And then I see those resumes and
they are the same cookie cutter resumes as every other person in
that same type of role because they think, oh, well, it looks
great, It sounds great, but there's no, there's no
uniqueness in it. So there is a lot of value in in
leaning into humanity. So it's like that's where, you
know, those differences are what unite us as people and, and
those are things that we can actually connect to in a more
real way, more authentically. Yeah, I see AI superpowers, not
knowledge. It's time.
Totally. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it's time. So in that sense it's like,
yeah, I use ChatGPT. Yeah, I use clod.
Of course I use Anthrop. Like I'll use grot and I'll use
anything. Why?
Cuz what I could do in one hour now in previous would take me 3
days. Yeah.
So I can get to a depth that would have taken me 3 days.
I could get to that depth in one hour.
So that means in three hours I can get to a depth that would
have taken me, you know, 9 days. You know, that I'll that I will
never have spent the time on. So actually I'm not against
using it. It's like to what I'm using it
because it's going to push my creativity.
It's going to push my level of depth and research because I can
spend that time really asking the question, what is it I want
to share? What is it and how can I
research more information that I couldn't have access to
otherwise? It would have taken me so much
longer to find. How can I organize my thoughts
so much faster? You know, and like, I think that
is valuable because then the goes back to the onus of like,
well, the onus is on you human. What is it you want to create?
What is it that you want to share and you have?
You can do more with your time now.
So what do you want to do with your time?
Yeah. And what's interesting, Yeah.
What's interesting is that on one hand we have the AI, which
is giving us more capabilities. On the other hand, we have
social media and gaming and content that numbs us.
So the numbing powers that the tools that numb the US as
individuals and as a population are getting much stronger, while
the same time the AI tools that can make us much more engaging
and deeper and create more interesting experiences and
thoughts is elevating. So depending where do you want
to spend your time. Well, this I'm curious because
you are, you know, I would consider you to be a very
creative person just given your, you know, career and all of the
things that you've accomplished. And I'm one of the things I
wanted to ask you is if you felt that your creativity has take in
a back seat because of the use of AI and how it can help to
articulate things sometimes for us that we otherwise, you know,
would need to really think about and lean into.
And to your point, spend the time going through and, and, and
and vetting, so to speak, or or fleshing out if that's in any
way impacted your ability to be creative.
And but it sounds, I mean, you just talked about how you feel.
It's push my creativity. It's push my creativity.
Because before, if you have a vision, you're like, oh, but how
am I going to make that? You know, as a filmmaker, how am
I going to make that? And now, you know, I have no, I
can just prompt it and they can work it and I can get exactly
what I want and I can spend the time and I can even make it.
I mean, it's push my creativity, right?
So now, like if I want, if I have an idea about a post, OK, I
can quickly write it up and get it there.
But then I just spent 1520 minutes.
But is that deep? Wait, why don't I spend another
20 minutes and take it deeper? Why don't I query it against a
historical reference And let me just research this moment here
and see if verify if it's correct and then deep in this
post and then let me. So for me, the AI has enabled my
creative is challenged my creativity to push it to go
deeper, to go farther, to expand more, right.
I'm not just because if I have an hour, if I can spend an hour
to get something I would achieve in three days, why am I going to
just spend 15 minutes? I'll spend an hour and I'll go
deep. Like let me offer more value to
to the audience, to people who will grant me the honor value of
their time, right. Yeah.
So for me, it's, I feel, I actually feel the whole wave of
on one hand, I feel a whole wave of energy for myself because now
the impetus is on me to create even deeper, more valuable work
because I can do it. What would have taken me 3 days
takes me an hour now. Like, wow, OK, great.
Let me spend 3 days on in one hour and let me go.
Let me take a deep, let me offer real value if I can, and much
more value. On the flip side, I understand
that I think we're facing a serious problem where what
social media did to the mental health of society will be
nothing compared to what AI is going to do to the mental health
or our sense of self. Because for the first time in
human history, us humans are going to be engaging with
basically a God. What's a God?
It's something that's omnipresent and omnisent.
Omnipotent. I don't know, maybe not yet, but
definitely it's omnisent means it knows everything and it's and
it's omnipresent. It's always there.
So your relation, like if you and I are having a conversation
and I need some advice and you give me some advice, it's like,
oh, that's really good advice, OK, But you're not a guy.
Like you have mistakes. You know, you go to your
therapist, you know that they make mistakes, they're human,
they're fallible, OK. But now you're talking to an AI
that you're like, this thing should know everything and it's
always available and it doesn't have feelings and it doesn't
have emotions. So it's, you know, doesn't make
mistakes per SE or doesn't like have emotional mistakes or
fallibilities. Well, it must know things.
So now we're going to start question, are we going to start
questioning our creativity? Are we going to start
questioning our decisions in life?
You know, should I take this job?
Is it does it pay enough? What should I ask for?
You know, should I be fed? What do you think I should do
here? Then we start losing our sense
of self. And.
That's what's concerning. Yeah, that is concerning.
It's an existential crisis as far as I'm concerned.
I wouldn't even necessarily say a threat because again, I think
that there are some amazing use cases for AII really believe in
knowing how to wield a technology and and leverage it.
But there is, yeah, that's a really interesting thought about
how we, how it will, will and can impact our our psyche.
You you know what the top three uses of AI this year are
according to an Harvard Business Review study?
No, I don't. You know what they are.
No #1 is companionship. Companionship.
Yeah, that was #2 last year. Oh boy.
Number one last year was coding and coding This year has fallen
to like the 7th or 8th spot. You know what number 2 is, which
was never on the list ever, but is this year.
Tell me. Like help me organize my life.
Oh, I'm not surprised by that. I see so many people saying help
me with my gym, you know, routine.
Like tell me what my food meal prep plan should be for the.
Exactly. Yeah.
Wow. Good.
Point no #3 is, which was also never ever ever on the list.
Ever. But is #3 now.
Help me find my purpose. OMG.
Yep. So AI this year corner Harvard's
business review top three things is in the sacred space of
relationship to yourself and to others.
OK, The challenge of that is that you now you're engaging
with something like I said, that is functionally a God.
And so you're going to accredit with a lot of value and trust
because you think it's like knows everything and it's always
available, remembers everything you say, knows exactly how to
talk to you. So then your sense of self is
going to what's going to happen to that?
When can you say no? AI can't say no, AI can't say, I
don't want to help you. AI can't say, you know, I'm not
available right now, but you can, you can say that's not a
good idea, but what are we going to do when we start relying on
it so much? And it's not to say a bad thing,
but it's something that we have to be aware of.
And that's just something that, you know, that's the flip side
that I'm concerned about. Doesn't feel.
Like the work the skin deep is really like stepping into.
Yeah, I think it's amazing work that you're doing it.
I don't know if you remember, it was maybe like a year ago when
Chachi PT was down for like, I don't know, 20 minutes and
everyone was freaking out, freaking out.
People were losing their crap, like losing it.
And I remember I, I only noticed it because I was going to like,
ask some stupid question. And I, I say it's a stupid
question because it's easily something, if I had spent 10
more minutes, I probably could have just figured it out for
myself. But again, it's like, oh, I
spend 10 minutes when I can just, you know, get the answer
right then and there, even though you do have to Fact Check
because, you know, as much as it knows everything, you do have
to, you know, have some reasonability there.
However, I remember I was like, Oh my gosh, it's down.
What do I do now? I'm like, oh, I used to read the
thesaurus and the encyclopedia. I know how to find answers, but
if people are so accustomed to getting at all of their
information from that one particular resource, what
happens when it is down or it gets shut down by a regulation?
You never know. What happened last Thursday when
Google and Shopify, I got to know how many things went down
for a few hours? Yeah, I mean.
No like. We're already in that space now.
Yeah. We're already in that space now.
And I think, yeah, yeah. I just think that we as humans,
like I, I think it's actually a beautiful thing because the
question is going to lead to like what experience you want to
have, what is important to you that you want to create for
yourself and for others. And now the impetus will be on
us to really make that decision. Yeah.
And really say like, what does it mean to bring humans to work
like your, the name of your podcast, like bringing humanity
to work. Like what?
What? What is it?
Bringing the human resources, yeah, it's all the same though.
But it's like, what does it mean to be human?
What does it mean to share humanity?
What does it mean? What is it that I want to do
with the experiences I want to create with my time and with the
people and the relationships of my life?
And now the onus is really going to be on us to make that
decision. And some of us will not face
that question and go be entertained and numbed out by
social media and by content. And others hopefully will say,
OK, I want to. I want to make the most of my
time and create the experiences that I find most valuable.
So what is it? What are those experiences that
are most valuable? Yeah, I think, I mean, first of
all, I can only say thank you so much for all of your wisdom and
the way that you look at the world.
It's really, I think this is probably one of my favorite
episodes that I've ever done. So I really appreciate your
time. It's and and all that you bring
to this whole conversation with the work that you're doing at
the skin deep and and through all your books and all that.
So I, I can't think of a better place to Segway and then give
you more time back because I've already, I've taken over an hour
and a half of your time, which I appreciate considering we've
spent 30 minutes chit chatting and now, you know, almost 50
minutes talking about what I think is really important
information and topics. So with that, where can the
listeners connect with you? Because I know they're going to
want to learn more. They're going to want to connect
and interact with all the work that you're doing.
Well, thanks so much for the time and the space, Tracy.
I appreciate it and your kind of words.
That means a lot if you're moved by I'm always have imposter
syndrome. So no, don't.
That's a nice like, yeah, but it's a nice thing to know that
I'm offering value. So I really appreciate that.
Well, one is like the skin deep. All our experiences in our
products are the skin deep.com and our social media tags are
the skin deep. And then there's and then we
just launched last week a new podcast called Getting Under the
Skin. So you can check that out on
YouTube and Instagram and TikTok guts.podcastandthenmypersonalwebsiteistopaz@desus.com
where I list all my writings and and the podcasts and all the new
products and experiences we're making at this can be.
Amazing Well, good luck with your new podcast.
Sounds amazing. I'll check it out and everything
will be LinkedIn the show notes too, so that everyone can click
those easily. So thank you so much again for
your time and I think you offer a tremendous amount of value.
So hey, just before you go, don't forget to subscribe to
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